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Author Topic: Leaving Neverland  (Read 2925 times)

JamesC

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Leaving Neverland
« on: 07 March, 2019, 08:07:07 AM »
Did anyone watch part 1 of this documentary on Channel 4 last night?

It was a tough watch and was pretty graphic in parts.
It was interesting though - tbh I found the story of the parents more interesting than that of the kids (now adults) themselves.
I spent the whole time wondering 'how the fuck could you let that happen?' but it was pretty obvious that the parents were 'shock and awe' bombed at the beginning and then gradually managed out. There were quite a few similarities with this and things I've seen in documentaries about cults (particularly the Waco thing which was taking place around the same time).
I suppose, ultimately, we'll never know how much is true but even without the sexual abuse there's enough wrong with the picture to make you wonder how any of it was allowed to happen.

IAMTHESYSTEM

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #1 on: 07 March, 2019, 09:03:43 AM »
I haven't seen this documentary, but our own experience with the execrable Jimmy Saville shows that fame/money/power allow horrible people to indulge their worst appetites. The recent MeToo Movement demonstrates the ugly side of celebrity Hollywood culture that the lecherous and psychopaths have been exploiting for far too long. Jeepers Creepers is a good film, but I never watch it now since the Movies Director Victor Salva is a convicted sex offender. I can appreciate the skill of that film, but I won't watch a movie made by a horrific paedophile.
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Funt Solo

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #2 on: 07 March, 2019, 07:23:29 PM »
So I watched Margin Call the other day.  One of the main actors (although it's an ensemble piece) is Kevin Spacey (currently charged with sexual assault).

So, my brain is good at compartmentalization: so if anyone mentions Kevin Spacey, one of the things I think is "Oh - his career is in tatters due to his being charged with sexual assault".

But when I was watching Margin Call - it's a well produced and well acted movie.  So, because Spacey is a good actor, I stop thinking of him as Kevin Spacey and start thinking of him as Sam Rogers.  Sam is doing some morally questionable things with money, but he's not been charged with sexual assault.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, however abhorrent someone's actions might be, it doesn't also follow that their work is not ... good.  Or worthwhile, even.  Does your toe tap to Billie Jean?
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Tjm86

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #3 on: 07 March, 2019, 08:07:32 PM »
tbh I found the story of the parents more interesting than that of the kids (now adults) themselves.
I spent the whole time wondering 'how the fuck could you let that happen?' but it was pretty obvious that the parents were 'shock and awe' bombed at the beginning and then gradually managed out.

That's the thing though.  Nonce's are pretty convincing and highly adept at lulling responsible adults into a sense of false security.  If anything that is where the additional tragedy lies.  Parents believe they are acting in the best interests of their children and taking advantage of a fantastic opportunity.  Then they find out years later what the damage was.  So the child is scarred for life and spends years trying to undo the damage whilst the parent is gutted by what they perceive as their failure.

There are two groups that I would seriously like to see burn in hell.  The fuckers that think that it is a good idea to use children for their own sexual gratification and those who 'enable' them by turning a blind eye, protecting them and denigrating the victims.  Not sure which deserve the fires more.

JamesC

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #4 on: 08 March, 2019, 08:40:28 AM »
So I watched Margin Call the other day.  One of the main actors (although it's an ensemble piece) is Kevin Spacey (currently charged with sexual assault).

So, my brain is good at compartmentalization: so if anyone mentions Kevin Spacey, one of the things I think is "Oh - his career is in tatters due to his being charged with sexual assault".

But when I was watching Margin Call - it's a well produced and well acted movie.  So, because Spacey is a good actor, I stop thinking of him as Kevin Spacey and start thinking of him as Sam Rogers.  Sam is doing some morally questionable things with money, but he's not been charged with sexual assault.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, however abhorrent someone's actions might be, it doesn't also follow that their work is not ... good.  Or worthwhile, even.  Does your toe tap to Billie Jean?

I've never been a fan of the music to be honest, so it's no skin off my nose if they stop playing it on the radio.
I agree with the notion that and art and artist can be evaluated seperately but it's not always easy. For musicians/pop stars especially, their personal image is a huge part of the product. For much of Jackson's career the musical output is almost impossible to serparate from the image, the iconography, the dance performances etc.

Part two of the documentary was on last night and was even more harrowing than the first. It really shows how deep the damage goes and how far the ripples spread. For anyone who thinks these guys may be making these allegations for financial gain, I'd really recommend watching the programme. I found it very convincing and, to be honest, if 10% of what they say is true it's still fucking awful.
How anyone could turn a blind eye to this stuff (and they must have done) I just don't know.

radiator

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #5 on: 11 March, 2019, 09:06:17 PM »
Quote
For anyone who thinks these guys may be making these allegations for financial gain, I'd really recommend watching the programme.

Agreed. It's one thing to hear the allegations in the abstract, another thing entirely to spend four hours with the victims themselves. Simply put, no one is that good an actor. It's absolutely devastating to watch, and I believe them 100%.

My girlfriend is a lifelong superfan of Jackson. She spent much of the first episode incredulous, and suspicious of the two men, assuming some sort of agenda, but over the course of the 2 hours I think it slowly sunk in.

The other striking thing about the doc is how Jackson looks like a literal ghoul in the still images used throughout. I'm sure the pics were chosen deliberately for that reason, and he always had a grotesque quality to him post the Bad era I suppose, but I don't think I'll ever see him in the same way again.
« Last Edit: 11 March, 2019, 09:09:06 PM by radiator »

JOE SOAP

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #6 on: 11 March, 2019, 10:38:09 PM »
It's not just the testimonies of the two men that are convincing, it's those of the extended families and how the realisation of the abuse effected them all and how they have obviously not come to terms with it.

That cannot be fabricated.

Link Prime

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #7 on: 12 March, 2019, 09:35:25 AM »
I caught this over the weekend - a really difficult watch.

I'm quite taken aback by how little of the negativity surrounding Wacko I actually absorbed or acknowledged previously, especially around the time of the latter investigations when I was older and more aware of topical events.

Proudhuff

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #8 on: 13 March, 2019, 11:26:49 AM »
Fony have done everything they can to suppress Jacko's fiddling, especially now he's dead he's worth millions to them. Don't hold your breath excepting a Gary Glitter style purge, too much at stake.
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radiator

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #9 on: 13 March, 2019, 04:33:32 PM »
Yeah - what is even more troubling than the actions of the likes of Jackson and R Kelly, is that they were clearly facilitated and abetted by dozens if not hundreds of people helping cover up or at least turning a blind eye to it all.

Quote
I'm quite taken aback by how little of the negativity surrounding Wacko I actually absorbed or acknowledged previously, especially around the time of the latter investigations when I was older and more aware of topical events.

As with Savile, I think we were all aware of the rumours at the time, but for me it just seemed.... too obvious to be true if that makes sense...? To make the insinuation just seemed like a hacky punchline, and not something that was actually true.

In the case of Jackson, there were two main things that had me pretty much convinced of his innocence - that Corey Feldman and Macauly Culkin have always denied all the allegations, and that one of the high profile accusers' families was known for extorting celebrities.

Mardroid

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #10 on: 13 March, 2019, 06:12:27 PM »
It's partly the history of the accusers that has me doubtful. I.e I read about the father of one of the kids apparently trying to get Jackson to fund his TV endeavours... or else. And being a bit of a weird bloke, it seems like Whacko Jacko would be an easy target for blackmail. Of course, being strange doesn't mean he wasn't guilty...

That being said, I haven't seen this documentary, and probably never will*. I have read it is rather one sided, just following the two men who have had a questionable history, and not covering the other side.  Of course that doesn't mean the allegations aren't true.

I'm not convinced either way, but the comments here make me wonder.

I had my doubts concerning Saville too, initially thinking alleged victims were just trying to cash in on an eccentric but well meaning man who was no longer around to defend himself. Then another person came forward . Then another. And another... and I was confronted with the strong likelihood that it was all true.

*Not because I'm in denial. I just want to avoid the graphic stuff that I understand is described.
« Last Edit: 13 March, 2019, 06:14:07 PM by Mardroid »

Hawkmumbler

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #11 on: 13 March, 2019, 07:54:24 PM »
I only managed 45 mins of this. Dependability of the subject and accusers not withstanding it just wasn't how I would like to have spent 90 mins of my life.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #12 on: 13 March, 2019, 08:00:18 PM »
I had my doubts concerning Saville too, initially thinking alleged victims were just trying to cash in on an eccentric but well meaning man who was no longer around to defend himself.

I’m not sure the corpses at Leeds Royal Infirmary had much financial incentive.
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Tjm86

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #13 on: 13 March, 2019, 09:37:24 PM »
I only managed 45 mins of this. Dependability of the subject and accusers not withstanding it just wasn't how I would like to have spent 90 mins of my life.

Not wanting to return to the razorblade era, I'll have to forego the 'pleasure'.  Was Jackson 'guilty'?  Hard to tell.  Are those who lay claims against him fabricating?  Possibly.  Enough to discard complaints?  Fuck no.

radiator

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Re: Leaving Neverland
« Reply #14 on: 13 March, 2019, 10:19:53 PM »
Quote
It's partly the history of the accusers that has me doubtful. I.e I read about the father of one of the kids apparently trying to get Jackson to fund his TV endeavours... or else. And being a bit of a weird bloke, it seems like Whacko Jacko would be an easy target for blackmail. Of course, being strange doesn't mean he wasn't guilty...

That being said, I haven't seen this documentary, and probably never will*. I have read it is rather one sided, just following the two men who have had a questionable history, and not covering the other side.  Of course that doesn't mean the allegations aren't true.

I'm not convinced either way, but the comments here make me wonder.

I had my doubts concerning Saville too, initially thinking alleged victims were just trying to cash in on an eccentric but well meaning man who was no longer around to defend himself. Then another person came forward . Then another. And another... and I was confronted with the strong likelihood that it was all true.


What the doc makes abundantly clear is that this wasn't a simple situation. There is a lot of murkiness and questionable behaviour by all involved. Some of the past actions of the accusers - at least initially - seem strange, hard to understand, maybe even damning. But none of it means the allegations themselves aren't true.

I totally understand you not wanting to watch the doc yourself, but trust me (as someone who has seen the full 4 hour HBO version) when I say that I don't think any rational, reasonably intelligent person could watch it all and not have the scales well and truly fall from their eyes. You'd essentially have to adopt a conspiracy theorist mindset to disbelieve what you are seeing right in front of you.

I honestly haven't stopped thinking about it all week.