Did nineties editorial really get it so wrong?

[O Lucky Stevie!]

For me, the different atmosphere of the Summer Offensive, trashy and kitsch as it was, was a welcome break from the mediocrity,

/\/\/\ This.

What seemed apparent to Stevie at the time was that the  Summer Offensive took as a starting point a whole swag  of archetypal  2000ad tropes & gave them a zeitgeisty, 1993 update.

Insofar that

Big Dave was M.A.C.H. One but with Bill Savage in the place of John Probe.

Maniac 5 was the obligatory Future War strip (telepresence was bleeding edge tech at that stage, mostly the stuff of serious articles in Analog Science Fiction & performance arts pieces by the likes of Stellarc. Millar managed to hitch  onto that particular bandwagon a good four years before Joe Haldeman published Forever Peace). 

Really & Truly was The Curs'd Earth (cross-country road trip couriering  drugs).

Slaughterbow was the obligatory Future Sport strip via Flesh.

The only genuine disappointment in the whole exercise was the handing of Dredd to a vastly indifferent Grant Morrison instead of John Smith. But if it came to light at some time further down the track that GMozz actually whipped up the whole twelve episodes  the morning that Carlos was sharpening his pencil  due to the mighty Smithboy still being in the process of glaciating the opening panel description of his epic then particular squaxx  will not be surprised in the slightest.

[ZenArcade]

Again the difficulty with the good strips in the early to mid 90's was the paucity. You could go for weeks on end in the 800's and 900's and find nothing readable. The prog before and the prog now always has at least two strips which are readable if not excellent. Z

[Skullmo]

For me it was the loss of key writers - John Wagner was mainly absent

The Pit was in late 95 for example, and there was plenty of Wagner in 2000AD before that in the 90s too. It was only a few years out of the decade that had that particular issue.

But like others have said, lumping the whole decade into one critique does oversimplify it. We'd also be including Necropolis for example.

I don't think that affects my statement. Seeing as for the preceding years he had been the writer on 50+ of 2000ad - not just dredd.

[glassstanley]

None of the above would have happened if the original creative talents hadn't been lost to American comics. I blame Kevin O'Neill for introducing the credit cards

Serious response - there were simply too many comics trying to draw upon too small a pool of talent in the nineties. Toxic had stolen some key talent with the lure of creator-owned strips (though this failed), Deadline took away another bunch (and failed). If these comics hadn't existed (and Crisis and Revolver and Blast! etc) then working for TMO may have looked much more attractive. It's here that the problems started and nineties editorial were being paid to respond to this situation rather than find a new way forwards. That they found a new way forwards is a testament to the talent of all involved. I look at the Megazines that consisted of 1 original Dredd strip and the remainder unrelated reprint and I am amazed that it's still running today!

[PsychoGoatee]

For me it was the loss of key writers - John Wagner was mainly absent

The Pit was in late 95 for example, and there was plenty of Wagner in 2000AD before that in the 90s too. It was only a few years out of the decade that had that particular issue.

But like others have said, lumping the whole decade into one critique does oversimplify it. We'd also be including Necropolis for example.

I don't think that affects my statement. Seeing as for the preceding years he had been the writer on 50+ of 2000ad - not just dredd.

Well, not to nitpick, but saying he was mainly absent just isn't accurate. Or including him in "loss of writers" for the decade. And there's always Al's Baby, etc. There is a lot of 90s Wagner material, and sure, Dredd counts.

[Skullmo]

For me it was the loss of key writers - John Wagner was mainly absent

The Pit was in late 95 for example, and there was plenty of Wagner in 2000AD before that in the 90s too. It was only a few years out of the decade that had that particular issue.

But like others have said, lumping the whole decade into one critique does oversimplify it. We'd also be including Necropolis for example.

I don't think that affects my statement. Seeing as for the preceding years he had been the writer on 50+ of 2000ad - not just dredd.

Well, not to nitpick, but saying he was mainly absent just isn't accurate. Or including him in "loss of writers" for the decade. And there's always Al's Baby, etc. There is a lot of 90s Wagner material, and sure, Dredd counts.

OK - have a look at the number of pages he wrote in the 80s and then the 90s and give me a total. UNtil then I'll just keep believing.

[13school]

From my memories of reading back in the early-mid 90s it really did feel like there was a lot less Wagner around the prog. It went from progs where there'd be Wagner on Dredd, Strontium Dog and at least one other thrill to just the occasional Dredd (and Button Man).

Though for me another big sign of the decline was that Pat Mills stopped working as a solo writer (aside from Slaine, which I could always take or leave). I've read various versions of his writing process with his co-writers (usually that they were doing research for him) and occasionally it seemed to work out ok - Accident Man for mine - but for the most part Mills & someone else usually equalled substandard Mills. As Mills was (and still is) a big part of what I read 2000AD for, that was at least as big a factor as anything in else me wandering off for a few years.

[O Lucky Stevie!]

Mills & Alan MacKenzie, who arrived at the Command Module as Deputy Editor circa Prog  515, fell out pretty early in the piece.

On his blog Mackenzie writes:

I hadn't been at 2000AD but a couple of weeks when I happened to field a phone call from Pat Mills - the creator and original editor of 2000AD, as well as the writer of some of the comics most successful strips. Though I could never understand the appeal of his later work, he was still treated pretty much as a demi-god by the editorial team at the time.
As it turned out, Pat wasn't happy. He hadn't received an expected cheque from the accounts department - this was to be an ongoing problem with Fleetway in all its guises - and decided to take it out on me. I listened patiently through a gale of obscenities that would have made a navvie blush until Mills had blown himself out.
I gave no indication that I'd even heard this tirade. I quietly told Mills that I pass his message along, and hung up.
That incident was to colour my opinion of Mills for my entire tour of duty on 2000AD. After that, I could never warm to the man or to his work.

Quite interesting stuff, which would certainly go a long way toward explaining Mills's recollection of the subsequent decade .

[TordelBack]

I worship at the temple of The Gaffer Revealed, but anytime I hear him flaying Dark Days 2000AD with his wonderful words, I can't help but think: "But your stuff was almost  the worst bit!".

[Colin YNWA]

Serious response - there were simply too many comics trying to draw upon too small a pool of talent in the nineties. Toxic had stolen some key talent with the lure of creator-owned strips (though this failed), Deadline took away another bunch (and failed). If these comics hadn't existed (and Crisis and Revolver and Blast! etc) then working for TMO may have looked much more attractive. It's here that the problems started and nineties editorial were being paid to respond to this situation rather than find a new way forwards. That they found a new way forwards is a testament to the talent of all involved. I look at the Megazines that consisted of 1 original Dredd strip and the remainder unrelated reprint and I am amazed that it's still running today!

There's a lot of wisdom in this. Talent was flying all over the place with options and dreams of fortune not just in America but in the UK too. There's a lot less around and Matt Smith has the great advantage of being (by and large) the only gig in town. So while talent leaks to the US still replacing it from the UKs talent pool isn't as difficult and I'd imagine modern communication means working with talent from elsewhere is much easier.

Matt real talent seems to to be keeping the talent here happier. He has a core of creators that even as they play across the pond always seem to want to come back. Some of that could well that the money ain't all that in the US (as I understand from my limited reading of other peoples limited understanding), certainly its nothing like as good as it used to be in the crazy days of the early 90s when some of the stories you hear of the money flying around are staggering. The bulk of it though appears (again limited reading etc etc) to be Matt understanding what the comic wants and needs, then getting that the creators do too and having a relativley soft touch in letting them get on with doing it. Much as I'm in the pro Bishop side of things (when the arguement moves there, its drifted to elsewhere here I admit) some of the stories of how he tried to address creators do make you shudder and by his own admission could have been handled better. Very possibly to do with the pressure of the time and the mistakes that births.

I worship at the temple of The Gaffer Revealed, but anytime I hear him flaying Dark Days 2000AD with his wonderful words, I can't help but think: "But your stuff was almost  the worst bit!".

Yeah very much this ... though I wouldn't say the worst but some of his worst stuff for sure. Pat Mills is an incredible talent and so very very wonderful to listen to BUT he does seem to lack the ability (again limited reading, not knowing the man etc etc) to reflect on situations and develop his opinion of events and people. It always seems to me once the Magnificent Mr Mills has an impression of people and situations he bloody well sticks to it and nowt will shake him from his path. Time does not diminish his ire, nor deflect his opinion. Almost certainly a good thing as it makes him a single minded unique writing talent, on the other hand however an agressive and bias historian... he's paid to be a writer and so the other bit is just a sideshow for us to debate!

[Frank]

I worship at the temple of The Gaffer Revealed, but anytime I hear him flaying Dark Days 2000AD with his wonderful words, I can't help but think: "But your stuff was almost the worst bit!".

Pat Mills is an incredible talent and so very very wonderful to listen to BUT he does seem to lack the ability ... to reflect on situations and develop his opinion of events and people ... (That) makes him a single minded, unique writing talent, (but an) aggressive and biased historian ...

Which is where I was hoping this thread would get to eventually. I share TB and Colin's affection for Mills, but his excoriation of 90s editorial (and particularly Diggle) is a case of him projecting his problems onto others.

Mills lost his way in the 90s. Mills forgot what it was about his early stuff that appealed to readers. Listening to him scourge 90s Tharg is painful for me, because it's really Mills beating up on himself.

When I describe Future Shock's narrative of early vigour gone awry, then (partially) regained, as The Pat Mills History of 2000ad, what I mean is it's the story of Pat Mills.

[Skullmo]

As a writer it's probably pretty insulting if an editor rewrites your stuff. That's bound to colour opinion of their professional nature

[Jim_Campbell]

As a writer it's probably pretty insulting if an editor rewrites your stuff. That's bound to colour opinion of their professional nature

Unless that editor is Pat Mills, obviously.

Cheers

Jim

[JayzusB.Christ]

I remember when, during my early days on this board, there was a bit of pro-Diggle and anti-Mills feeling about. 

It was around the early 2000s - the prog was getting good again, see, but Pat Mills stuff had become a bit stale (The last book of Nemesis, though incredibly illustrated by Flint and O'Neill, just seemed like a random collection of scenes from earlier books, and Sláine seemed to have completely lost direction).

It seemed at the time like Pat was past his sell-by date and was lashing out at a youthful rising star.
In hindsight, it turns out that Mills was far from a spent force (though quite how much of his poorer stuff was due to Diggle's rewriting, it's impossible to know - I like to think that Ukko's creator wouldn't have him talking about 'getting the barbie on'). 

[W. R. Logan]

As a writer it's probably pretty insulting if an editor rewrites your stuff. That's bound to colour opinion of their professional nature

And how many scripts did Mr Mills rewrite during his editorial stint.
Mr Diggle did no more than Mr Mills but as you see by reading any intro to any graphic novel written by Mr Mills editorial didn't get his writing and worse we the reader didn't understand his writing.
Whilst his contribution to the creation of 2000AD can never be forgotten his opinion of the reader of the comic has never in my opinion seemed that great.