The Political Thread

[Gonk]

[M.I.K.]

Going back to the scenario above; if God didn't 'will' for the rape to take place, how can he possibly have 'willed' for the child to be born? You can't have one without the other. At what point and in what form did 'God's will' manifest itself?

Also, how can anyone be sure that someone choosing to have an abortion isn't due to God's will that the child not be born because he's changed his mind?

[TordelBack]

George Carlin - Pro-Life is Anti-Woman!

Thanks for that link, Sharky - I do so love that man.

[Gonk]

Saying the sun comes up everyday is god's will is a religious belief and not political dogma, Tordell. So is saying a woman giving birth is god's will. It may or may not be so. That is a private belief and nothing to do with politicians.
 
Beaky. This person is an accident of nature believe me.

[TordelBack]

Saying the sun comes up everyday is god's will is a religious belief and not political dogma, Tordell. So is saying a woman giving birth is god's will. It may or may not be so. That is a private belief and nothing to do with politicians.

Wonky, I'm not sure where you think people that participate in politics (i.e. the electorate and the elected) come from, but I can assure you that a great many of them have religious beliefs that influence if not direct their opinions, and thus their actions on the political stage.  Putting politics and religion into two separate camps is a noble aspiration, but possibly one for a species other than H. sapiens sapiens. 

This is not the same as saying there shouldn't be a separation of church and state, or that policy shouldn't be enacted on religious principles, but if a participant in the political system (a voter, lobbyist or representative) has views as to how the state should operate, it is very naive to hope that they do not reflect that person's beliefs in some way.  The position adopted by Beaky here being a case in point - he has a view, that view is probably influenced by his religious beliefs or background, and as a participant in some sort of democracy he will act on that view, whether the state he participates in is as secular as my atheistic arse, or a some kind of borderline theocratic hellhole.

Now personally I wish people who wanted to see these kinds of views reflected in society would do everyone a great service and go and live in harmony on Pluto, or some other place where they can more easily commune with their hateful imaginary friend free of the distractions of the actual living humans they claim to cherish as His divine creation, but as it is I'm stuck with them, and I'd rather acknowledge and strive to minimise their influence than pretend they don't belong in a political discussion just because.

And you've managed to extract from me the kind of mean-spirited no-good-will-come-of-it rant I was trying desperately to avoid burdening a company's comics discussion forum with.

[Spikes]

welcome to Nazi Germany reborn... a place that Great Britain is at unfortunately,

really?

[Gonk]

Dear Tordell,

I don't disagree with you in principle. I have the feeling you are barking up the wrong tree here with these accusations. In the final analysis, I expect someone who has a differnent or opposite belief to mine to be able to express them without jumping down my throat. If you have not noticed, I have a very, very low opinion of politicians and I'm not afraid of expressing this. If this seems patronising to anyone on the forum, that is unintentional. My contempt is reserved for politicians. Why you misconstrue this as a personal attack on the integrity of the members of this forum mystifies me. Maybe you could explain why you think I am attacking someone's personal feelings rather than discussing the contradictions inherent in a subject such as religion?

[Old Tankie]

Great Britain is many things, some good, some bad, but what it isn't is Nazi Germany reborn.  Anybody who seriously thinks it is, is showing themselves to be very ignorant of history, and not to know anything about Nazi Germany at all.

[TordelBack]

Honestly wonkychop, I have no idea what part of your most recent post relates to anything I've posted.  I'm not accusing you of anything, and I'm certainly not jumping down your throat - I'm just trying to explain my view of what constitutes politics and a political discussion. 

You say Beaky's views have no place in a 'political' thread because they're based on personal religious belief. I'm saying Beaky's views are political views, based on a view of individual rights that is (very probably) based on religious beliefs. I don't see how what they're based on makes them any less political if he's prepared to articulate them in the field of influencing public policy - which he clearly is.   

I don't give a fig for Beaky's 'integrity' (sorry, Beaky) or your supposed impugning of it, nor do I see or say that you are attacking his 'personal feelings'.  I'm not defending Beaky, if he even needed such, and from his posts on this thread to date it looks like I could never imagine a scenario in which I ever want would do such a thing, or be in any way associated with his views, which are largely (to coin a religious phrase) anathema to me. 

What I am saying, obviously very badly, is that a political discussion is precisely the place that these sorts of things should be addressed, and not hidden away under the inviolable seal of the personal or the religious, where everyone is entitled to harbour whatever comforting fancies they cleave to.  I'm utterly sick of people hiding their agendas behind the shield of personal faith.  Beaky has a vote and a voice.  If someone wants to use those precious things to impose the supposed authority of some long-dead con-men on living peoples, I say bring it out into the open and challenge it as relates to the real world: in a political debate.

tl; dr version:  I'm not accusing you of anything of the sort.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I blame New Labour.................................for EVERYTHING 



Or is it Old Labour now 

[Richmond Clements]

Great Britain is many things, some good, some bad, but what it isn't is Nazi Germany reborn.  Anybody who seriously thinks it is, is showing themselves to be very ignorant of history, and not to know anything about Nazi Germany at all.

Yup. Comparing the massive freedoms we have now to the attempted genocide of several societal groups is pretty ignorant.

[locustsofdeath!]

Great Britain is many things, some good, some bad, but what it isn't is Nazi Germany reborn.  Anybody who seriously thinks it is, is showing themselves to be very ignorant of history, and not to know anything about Nazi Germany at all.

Yup. Comparing the massive freedoms we have now to the attempted genocide of several societal groups is pretty ignorant.

Besides, I thought WE were far ahead of Britain in that respect! 

[The Legendary Shark]

Nazi: a member of the National Socialist German Workers' party of Germany, which in 1933, under Adolf Hitler, seized political control of the country, suppressing all opposition and establishing a dictatorship over all cultural, economic, and political activities of the people, and promulgated belief in the supremacy of Hitler as Führer, aggressive anti-Semitism, the natural supremacy of the German people, and the establishment of Germany by superior force as a dominant world power.

Sounds a lot like the path the U.S. is on, and where Uncle Sam leads John Bull has in recent times lagged not too far behind. It is certainly something to keep vigilance angainst.

[locustsofdeath!]

Nazi: a member of the National Socialist German Workers' party of Germany, which in 1933, under Adolf Hitler, seized political control of the country, suppressing all opposition and establishing a dictatorship over all cultural, economic, and political activities of the people, and promulgated belief in the supremacy of Hitler as Führer, aggressive anti-Semitism, the natural supremacy of the German people, and the establishment of Germany by superior force as a dominant world power.

Sounds a lot like the path the U.S. is on, and where Uncle Sam leads John Bull has in recent times lagged not too far behind. It is certainly something to keep vigilance angainst.

Now, if I didn't know you better Shark, I might take offense to you keeping the "aggressive anti-Semitism" when describing the political (or otherwise) climate of the US.

[Gonk]

Hello Tordel, I think the crux of Beakies' argument should be on a different thread : If Beaky thinks Nazism was a part of god's plan for humanity as well, it belongs to religious debate. We will have to agree to disagree on this Tordell.