The Political Thread

[IndigoPrime]

The UK has never bothered to enforce the various laws available regarding EEA nationals, because it was never in the UK's interest to do so. Now immigrants are being blamed for central funding failures from government. And it's not a red herring when you look at the figures. During free-movement phases, the UK has been economically strong off of the back of both cheap labour and also encouraging as many people as possible to come here. That's now at an end. We won't attract the best and the brightest – we'll be lucky to keep those we have. (And you can bet the so-called 'generous' offer to EU citizens will be a piss take when it eventually arrives.)

[Michael Knight]

This whole sorry saga over fate of EU nationals living, working and contributing here is truly abysmal and just sums up the ineptitude of our government. The governments whole 'were holding our cards over this issue till negotiations begin' doesn't wash well.
I just hate the thought of innocent civilians being used as political pawns and bargaining chips. This has the potential to get nasty if its tit for tat across EU with fallout etc.

[The Legendary Shark]

Government regards ALL "innocent civilians" as political pawns.

[Michael Knight]

sadly true mate

[IndigoPrime]

This whole sorry saga over fate of EU nationals living, working and contributing here is truly abysmal and just sums up the ineptitude of our government. The governments whole 'were holding our cards over this issue till negotiations begin' doesn't wash well.

And still I see in many places the same old shit about "Theresa May made an amazing offer the EU rejected" (not the case), and "the EU won't do anything" (false – their offer was dismissed by David Davis as "ridiculous"). I'm just glad this forum is rational on the subject.

I think it's reprehensible EU nationals who moved here in good faith – and were often recruited here – still have no guarantees about their future, and are suffering a government creating roadblocks to them staying, all while banging on about a "generous" deal that's almost certainly going to be anything but.

Actually, I can't even imagine what a generous deal would be for EU nationals. Anything less than what they have now is clearly not generous, and yet it's very, very unlikely they'll get that. The only possible thing that would be generous would be to freeze all rights forever, and to roll in EU nationals who haven't been here for the requisite amount of time, and to figure out a way to seriously fast-track people to citizenship should they want it.

Government regards ALL "innocent civilians" as political pawns.

Not to the same level. Post-Brexit, you're not living under the fear of deportation or the majority of your rights being removed.

[The Legendary Shark]

The way the pawns are played, and on what level, depends on the game of the moment.

[The Legendary Shark]

Further, I don't derive my rights from government and neither does anyone else. My rights, just like everyone else's, are inherent. They cannot be bestowed or revoked by human beings with no more or fewer rights than anyone else. What the delusionals in government call rights are nothing of the sort - they are privileges.

The sad part is that the majority of people (falsely) believe that government privileges trump personal rights.

[IndigoPrime]

 My point is that you are not under threat of being forced from this country. My wife is. You might consider everyone a pawn, but some are more equal than others in Brexit.

[The Legendary Shark]

You're right, IP, I'm not under that threat but I'm not insensitive to your family's situation.

My point, as ever, is that government has only the rights we give it. I do not and will never support government to deport anybody in your wife's situation. Period. I do not have the right to order her out of the country and neither does anyone else. I'm pretty certain that nobody here wants your wife deported either but the sad fact is that anyone who supports government's superhuman rights is enabling them in this threat.

I get that most folks hate what I have to say about government's rights and responsibilities and that makes me sad but I don't think a bunch of people, no different from you or I, have any say whatsoever over your family. If I can't tell you what to do then neither can they.

And yes, this may all seem like some abstract intellectual exercise or rhetorical trickery but it's actually a pretty solid logical argument. The government may have the power to force you but they don't have the right. This is the realisation the country, and the world, needs to attain.

The only rights they have are the ones we allow them, so why let them act in such a way as we'd find monstrous in each other?

[Tjm86]

Government regards ALL "innocent civilians" as political pawns.

And their definition of 'innocent civilian' is anyone who is not part of their party / able to give them something.

[The Legendary Shark]

Could be from their party, if they've outlived their usefulness and a public sacrifice is required.

[sheridan]

Could be from their party, if they've outlived their usefulness and a public sacrifice is required.

As that naïve woman on Question Time found out, after she'd voted for cuts to her own benefit in the illogical belief that they'd only affect other people.

[Tjm86]

Valid point.  There is a very, very narrow definition of who might be included at times, particularly with this shower.  Quite a few naive supporters have discovered the 'truth' over the last few years.  Unfortunately not enough yet.

[IndigoPrime]

I see most of the press is merrily parroting May's line about a fair and serious offer, and chalking it up as a win. Some are noting that this 'generous' offer would only be accepted if the EU offered a reciprocal deal. Would this be the deal the EU offered a while back, dismissed by the UK as ridiculous?

It's insane. Here we are an entire year later and the best the Tories can do is offer EU nationals some of the rights they already have, while also saying they'll have to sign up to a register, with presumably no guarantees. (And I was right about one thing: the early statement notes "lawfully" resident people will be covered. So that'll be fun to unpick...)

[Tjm86]

Not entirely sure that May is offering EU citizens the rights they currently have.  She said 'the same as UK citizens'.  Worth remembering that there is no such thing.  We are all subjects of the crown.