2000 AD Online Forum

Quick one this time.

A big "reveal" in Kingdom
Interesting developments in Dredd. Does this tie in with information gleaned from the Previews for the next lot of Megazines I wonder?

Not read the rest yet.

Not liking the cover much though.

I didn't mind the cover. Mayor looks rather camp though.

Since it's early in the week I've spoiler tagged the, er, spoilers.

Dredd:  Good one. Can't help thinking PJ came to the deduction concerning the juve a bit to quickly though. Ok, so he was one himself, but there are other explanations.

Stickleback:  More Victorian warped madness. A bit predictable for me, but not in a bad way. I wonder who/what this Cody actually is? Considering events, I think my previous deduction, that he is a ghoul of some kind is true. Also, did the fat man bit remind anyone of a certain Monty Python sketch? With a twist? Messed up stuff but highly enjoyable.

Strontium Dog: Again quite formulaic but I'm enjoying this. I wasn't to sure earlier on, but it's growing on me. Quite raunchy this one too.

Kingdom: Another good-un. I'm figuring all that other pink stuff beneath the ticks is just... more ticks right? That and the nutrients they grow on. Just in the distance and less defined. I didn't really last bit coming though. Makes you wonder what'd happen if they'd successfully burrowed into Gene. He'd probably just be dog food, yuk yuk.

The whole prog is bloody brilliant!

Great Prog - this strong run continues to impress - not a clunker in the house.

The new PJ is a bit too much like the old PJ but I guess that's the idea. I'm glad to see PJ is out for blood but I can still see JP ending up as a protege. Good detection on PJ's part but I was disappointed to see that 'solve any problem' suggestion drug show up again.

SHAKARA missed a step for me this week - it's basically the same thing over and over - cure her-blam-cure her-blam and so on. It's never been a narrative heavy tale but we do need some momentum.

Alpha is like my comfy old slippers, always welcoming but not too exciting. Some feaky sex action did enliven proceedings somewhat. With Alpha, not my slippers.

Kingdom is still the ace in the deck with its reveal that the villagers are just vessels for the bug dudes. Look forward to all being made clear, but not it ending so something right has been done.

Stickleback continues to impress. I do get a bit lost with the art sometimes but that only encourages a more detailed look. Best B&W since Leviathan.

Great stuff and an unobstructed logo to boot.

A great prog, Shakara showing his sensitive side, and speaking more dialogue in this ep than I think he has in his entire run up to now.

I also liked Stickleback's dark little hint to Cody: "You're not Cody; I know Cody, and he knows me." Or words to that effect.

However, I am somewhat troubled by Kingdom. Okay, the townspeople are being controlled by the ticks, I didn't see that coming, but if they are, then why were they so happy to keep Gene around? Wouldn't they see him as a threat? Also, I refuse to believe that a genetically engineered super-soldier like Gene could be knocked out by a bump on the head with a pipe. At least have the tick-people produce some form of tranquiliser dart or something.

Kingdom:-

Am I the only one who sees that the girl will rescue Gene - presumably the ticks only go for adults - and this will then become a "one girl and her dog" tale?

I didn't see the twist coming in Kingdom.  Wonder how the voice knew about this and what is the voice?

The bit in Stickleback was also done in a comic that was part of the ... if I remember correctly .. PowerLine saga (St George and Dr Zero being the other comics) they used it to smuggle some people in to a gathering of criminal families.

Another strong Prog:

Anyone get the cover up here?

Dredd: What is that under his nose? Great art work through out, story's fabby, how good will all this read collected eh?

Shakakkaaaa!! A bit more depth loving the art.

Stickly backed: Great stuff, Didn't 'Cody' reveal his devil last week when he 'Flashed'the  Fumanchu lookalike? This week just confirms his evilness.

Stronty Dug: Johnny does the Gay Pride thang again: a Bird/Woman in a brothel askes if she could be anything for him and he replies something like ' only if your making soup' Wulf must be sooo proud!

heyhey another letters page of boarders, jings whitever next...

hguff
 

Did you all notice the MacNeil Dilbert at the end of Dredd?

Certainly the same specs - maybe it's a tribute to our favourite fundamentalist christian?

Imasaved1:  Please, no offence intended but this isn't the thread to discuss that.


Shakara: I though I'd missed one strip in my little review above. Quite an interesting one. Shows that Shakara, for all his bloody minded ruthlessness isn't as tyranical as others of his race, (although granted their dead, and that could cheese them off somehow. ;)  )

Kingdom: Concerning the ticks- whilst they have a control over the people, I think the result might be a merger of minds.

In other words I think the human brain brings something to the mix rather than just becoming a zombie for the parasite's control. This would explain why it is that the people want Gene's protection rather than just seeing him as a threat. It also explains why the other ticks he encountered attacked Gene just as they attacked 'them'.

Oh sorry Imasaved1, I see your quote was a response to previous posters reference to something in the prog.

Shakara! In! Love!

Another fantastic feast of thrill.

Cliff never seems to dull in his work fantastic cover.

Dredd awesome.

Shakara brilliant.

SD off the hook.

Stickleback hotting up.

Kingdom still my fave of the prog.





V

And the run of great progs continues.

Dredds top of the pops this week.
Shakara was blink and you'll miss it.

Alls good and the scripts and art are all top notch.

but nice image of Dante knock out American guy! but does that Amercian guy got Tsars logo on his clothes???

Its actually difficult to fault the prog at the moment, its top notch.  

Except maybe that fact that it seems to be in WH Smiths on a Saturday, which means Ive missed a prog or two of the recent run.  
 

but nice image of Dante knock out American guy! but does that Amercian guy got Tsars logo on his clothes???

I thought the other guy looked a lot like Dante, like they're clones or something.

Also more encouragement for new work-droids from Tharg. Running low on new material? I doubt it but it's nice to know they're on the lookout for more people.

I've got the first draft of a terror tale finished and a future shock in my head (that sounds funny). I think I need to revise the first tale though before submitting it, but I'll move onto the next one in the meantime.

I've been advised it's best to go onto something new after finishing a project, then go back and revise... Whether that's true or not I don't know, I guess it depends from person to person.

A lass I know might be able to do the art for it (or I might give it a go myself... although I need more practise with drawing etc). I get the impression they prefer the art and writing to be submitted seperately though as they're essentially seperate jobs. (Or more specifically stories is bought, artists are employed.)

That should be 'stories are bought' not 'stories is bought'. Not exactly a good advertisement as a writer using that kind of grammar is it? (I'm not that bad on stories honest.)

So the Hi-EX tales of Tharg's overflowing 'slush' bins full of art and stories is full of wrong?

Not sure what that mean... but I wasn't making a criticism.

I'm enjoying the tales currently in the prog.

Lordy, is that an obscure Kim Newman reference on the cover?(or possibly just a more generic pun)

Kingdom: Maybe the tick things have joined with Gene, but can only talk to him - after all, the voices came into his head after he'd been knocked out by them!  (Note: not Them.) I want a happy ending!

Gene's been having voices in his head for a while, the 'urgings'.

That being said, it's possible that the latest voices are false, hijacking the others as it were. I think that's overly complicated to the truth though.  Either way, the urgings and ticks appear to be in league in some way.

The title itself seems to be alluding to something much larger than this mere journey-manning by Gene though.

There has been the intro; of the pack and Gene as an individual protagonist.

Now this could be a part of the tale where there is 'One Girl and Her Dog', thing for thing volume of a bigger, hardback?

It would be nice. Although I never got around to finishing the first installment( Sacrilege!), I feel, from this read, its a dunk it and see sort of episodic.

It has people crying out for more though. Yeah. Yeah, nice twist, I would have liked Gene to have taken the top of farmer John's head off and find the tick there but maybe that could have caused problems with the telling so, anyway.  Yeah.

What does Tharg actually say about looking for new people? (I won't be able to get to my prog for a while) It seems slightly at odds with all the tales I hear of trawling through endless dross to get to anything good by new writers...

I don't think the editorial was a request for more submissions so much as an appeal for aspiring Squaxx to properly follow the submission guidelines.

 " I descend to the next floor and enter the submissions dept,where harried looking subs droid is wading through the latest artwork to be posted in from prospective pencil monkeys.he will point out that a couple of them show promise,but mostly holds his hands up in despair and asks why in the name of MekQuake cant those submitting their portfolios follow the guidelines of the galaxys greatest ?"


 "Its a point worthy repeating.dont send original artwork as we wont be held responsible if it goes missing.dont just send in pin ups.We want to see if you can tell a story sequentially.Use 2000ad characters only.also visit the submissions dept of 2000ad online."


 It sounds encouraging and anything creative/artistic is always looking for new talent even if they dont advertise for it.

There's that, and also this week he mentioned something too (prog not in front of me now.) This seemed to be encouragment to other 'droids' too (i.e writers etc.)

Again he was mainly saying, "Follow the guidelines." but it looked very encouraging just the same.

Everything in the Prog this week is just incredible, one of the best reads I've ever had from House of Tharg.  As I finished each story, there just seemed to be more and more and more.  

Love the paranoia and megalomaniacal rantings of PJ and the Beeny procedural (don't give much for Roake's chances of reaching the end of this one), love dirty-minded Tonga and his kittens, love Gene (best new character of recent years?) and his betrayal, love Shakara's new found defiance.  

Incredibly Strontium Dog, by Wagner and Ezquera no less, is the weakest thing in the Prog, even though it's a very enjoyable shaggy dog story and could easily be the strongest strip in any normal line-up.

Kingdom (aka Rogue Trooper Done Right - maybe some of the Ticks could come along as bio-chip analogues?  Sorry, sorry...) must continue.  It's Alpha Strip, tougher and tough.

My Prog went up by 1 whole cent this week.  I didn't think it too many (much).

I am really enjoying the Stront now, and I think its only problem is that its two stories in one - the Billy Glum fall out stuff from Traitor in the first few eps just seems to clash with the very neat "Why Alpha and Co aren't millionaires" thrust of the current eps.  I can see the reason Glum is there, but its still a weird mix thats got slightly in the way of a nice exploration of just how much bounty hunting is a hard way to make a living, let alone a killing.  and it still hangs over the strip - presuming Alpha and GLum are gonna have to get a pardon somehow.

I am really enjoying the Stront now, and I think its only problem is that its two stories in one

Yeah, as we were saying at the weekend- the present tale is a bit of a 'greatest hits' package, though having said that, it's John Wagner we're dealing with here, and I don't discount the possibility of a sudden dark twist in the tale towards the end.

For me, Stront's the weakest thing in the prog, and yet it's still a great strip.  Pretty much my favourite of the post-death Alpha strips, and the first one to out-perform the reboot / advert that was "The Kreeler Conspiracy".

I haven't liked the high concept nature of the earlier ones, especially The Tax Dodge ("they're tied to an accountant!") and A Shaggy Dog Story ("they're all bald!").  Maybe if each prog had been served with 4 beers and a couple of vodka chasers, those ideas would have appeared funny for longer than a heartbeat.

Current prog at all time high, though.

Kingdom is my favourite strip in a long time, out-performing all others.  I'd happily take a full prog of it as a special, is how much I love it - and the only thing that worries me is that it might end - at all - and unhappily.

Then, in order (because I haven't in ages):

Stickleback - I didn't think much of the first series as it was more about some bearded bloke than Stickleback, who only guest starred in it.  This is much more the thing.  I do hate SB, because he's a smug, spiney bastard - and yet now I'm sort of forced to root for him against the kiddy-eating mad cowboy demon.

Judge Dredd - it's got PJ in it.  And Beeny.

Shakara - he had to develop, because otherwise it's just "Shakara vs. new unbeatable badass that he then beats easily, which is fun to watch".  Great art, and a great style, carry this much further than is probably normally allowed.

Strontium Dog.  (It's good, and all, but instead of this, Carlos could be doing more Cursed Earth Koburn.  Ah, if only we could clone Carlos...)

"Lordy, is that an obscure Kim Newman reference on the cover?"

Does it mark me as being an especially sad individual that, when I first saw the cover, I began looking for some sort of reference to Truro Daine?

Dear grud, I'm agreeing with funt 100%.  Have I fallen into a twisted mirror universe?  Must check co-workers for goatees (or absence f, in some cases).

I have to say that thing I find particularly heartening thing about the fantastic quality of this post-Christmas run is the diversity of strips.

When I think back to what I remember as "golden" spells in bygone eras, they tend to be characterised by a profusion of the title's big hitters all in the prog at the same time: Dredd, Strontium Dog, Rogue Trooper, Slaine, Nemesis ...

Here, we don't even have the more recent regulars like Dante or SinDex. We have Dredd and Stront, but the strength of Stickleback, Shakara and Kingdom is really gratifying and speaks well for the future health of the title.

Cheers!

Jim

Cover: Made me want to buy it. Very Good Stuff.

Dredd: I have a slight worry that these threads will be sidelined after this tale is over and Beeny will get DeMarcoed (or possibly even Castilloed), but that's why I am a terrible person who deserves to die. Great Stuff/Really Great Stuff.

Shakara: People will bitch about Robbie doing his shtick here. I think it would of come off better if this had been a more regular strip and we were all starting to get bored with our guy waving his swords around. I hope this leads to a good payout that does justice to the pervading sense of menace that's always been lurking. Very Good Stuff.

Stront: Greatest hits but still fresh. Beautiful art. Great Stuff.

Kingdom: If you'd told me 2 years ago that DAbnett would be the best writer in the prog after Wagner I would have punched you and gone back to my Grennie shrine. Although I do have a slight worry that he could start to go all Millsian eco-wank on us. Great Stuff.

Stickleback: If I had to choose between this or Red Seas as the regular Edgy strip (or as the only Edgy strip), then Jack wins hands down. There, I fucking said it. I don't care anymore. Good Stuff.  

:"characterised by a profusion of the title's big hitters all in the prog at the same time: Dredd, Strontium Dog, Rogue Trooper, Slaine, Nemesis"

Aye, but all but Stront and Dredd were new once as well.

Take the prog 335 - 345 run:

Judge Dredd: The Graveyard Shift
Slaine: Warrior's Dawn
Nemesis the Warlock: Book III
Strontium Dog: The Moses Incident
Rogue Trooper: From Hell to Eternity

With that, Rogue's the weakest (but still strong) link, and Slaine's in only his 6th episode of the opening run.  That's newer than anything in the current prog, and Shakara (at Book 3) compares well with Nemesis.

I know what you mean, though: you'd expect a top prog of stalwarts these days to consist of Dredd, Stront, Nikolai Dante, Sinister Dexter and something else.  Shakara, Kingdom and Stickleback all feel decidedly new.

Dredd: I have a slight worry that these threads will be sidelined after this tale is over and Beeny will get DeMarcoed (or possibly even Castilloed)

Don't think so, Beeny is being built up to be too much of a major character to be offed or cast off. There's no one else in the Dredd pantheon that carries the same unique potential, consider her history and what she may eventually mean to the Meg...

 Not a review .Well sort of.

 What pleases me more than anything is the almost universal praise for Kingdom.I liked it immediately but did think at the time that it probably wouldnt appeal to everyone as i usually like strips in 2000ad that are not everyones cup of tea.

 I like the character [as i like my non human characters] the art ,everything really.This is good news because mass appeal will almost guarantee more of it in the future which pleases me no end.

I didn't like the first series of Kingdom immediately, but really got into it when I re-read it all in one go.

The second series is really cooking with gas, and the art suits it perfectly.

- Trout

Unless Kingdom goes off on a massive tangent I cant see this going for more than a couple more books, which would be a huge shame as this is the best new story to grace the prog for a long time.




V

I gotta admit, I didn't like Kingdom much when it first appeared. Each episode seemed to be "Wander a bit, stand still and listen to the urgings, fight Them, to be continued..." But it grew on me after a few progs and it has turned into one of the better thrills going on right now.

could you explain the obscure Kim Newman reference on the cover to those of us who know nothing of Kim Newman?

Dredd mad me laugh out loud several times, especially PJ's line about "even i like to turn a profit". And a mention of Edgar, too. Magic.

And yet Kingdom is fighting with it to be top thrill. Shakara, Stront and Stickles are all brilliant too.

Are you sure us Earthlets can handle all of this at once, Green bonce?

Back in the '90s, could you ever have imagined that you'd be reading this story:

The daughter of Democratic terrorist America Jara and crooner Bennett Beeny is a young Judge, investigating a murder spree by a PJ Maybe copycat, who may be PJ's son, seemingly attempting to frame the Mayor of MC-1.  The Mayor himself is secretly the real PJ Maybe, and has earned Dredd's respect.  Meanwhile, Dredd is busy lobbying hard for Mutant Rights, politicking with a Council of Five that are largely his appointments or proteges, having been told by a dying Fargo that Justice Department's harsh ways were never meant to be forever.

Honestly, not in a million years would I have thought I'd be reading this masterpiece.  And it's arguably not even the best thing in the Prog!  Happy happy, joy joy.

In many ways Wagner seems to combining his and Mills' preferred vision of the character.

You mean that PJ is really a giant, free-floating space-vagina that Dredd will have to cause to explode by flying into it aboard the suddenly very phallic Justice One?

***You mean that PJ is really a giant, free-floating space-vagina that Dredd will have to cause to explode by flying into it aboard the suddenly very phallic Justice One?***

exactly.

or to quote mills:


"Cursed Earth is also an interesting area - some of the issues that raises don't fit the official and revisionist view of Judge Dredd. Put simply, the lesson of the Cursed Earth and its huge popularity, was not learnt, so - as far as I know â?? the revisionist view tended to play down the great opportunities it presented in terms of character and dramatic development to the point where the city is often now seen as a hero, rather than the hero. In my view that was a mistake, the sustained popularity and longevity of the character and its merchandising ability obscures the mistake, but doesn't cancel it out - hence one of the reasons why they had so many problems with the film scripts on Dredd.

Everyone got used to the character walking with a creative limp so they don't notice now, but any professional writing editor would confirm the character has a limp. No one has ever wanted to grasp the nettle on things like this and, of course, the passage of time makes it almost irrelevant now, a different road has been taken, but I know as a creator that whatever problems aren't resolved in the opening issue of a character will haunt that character in perpetuity. Those problems on Dredd of course go right back to the beginning and the difficulties I had getting it okayed by management."

"...the sustained popularity and longevity of the character and its merchandising ability obscures the mistake..."

You have to respect a man who sticks to his guns!  "Everyone loves Judge Dredd, but they shouldn't, because it's a bit crap".  

Gaah! I find it SO HARD to like or respect Mills. He always comes across like a spoilt little child throwing his toys out of his pram. Every time my resentment of him diminishes I hear something like this or read another of his dodgy strips. Surely he is the most inconsitent writer working in 2000ad today, when he's bad, he's terrible, when he's good, he's... acceptable. Luckily for him, he always seems to have brilliant artists to disguise his weak scripts.

To be honest, I really dislike the Cursed Earth epic and always have. The premise is stupid (floating rocks!), Dredd sounds like a complete prick throughout, Tweak makes me cringe, Tooty Trooty, MacDonald's and the Jolly Green Giant, the dialogue stinks and many of the individual story arcs within it are plain embarrassing. If Dredd had stayed like that I seriously doubt I'd be reading today.

"Everyone got used to the character walking with a creative limp so they don't notice now, but any professional writing editor would confirm the character has a limp."

That'll be the tight boots.

You have to wonder about Mills sometimes. I mean the guy is so off the mark these days that you have to think all his early successes were sheer fluke.

"...but I know as a creator..."

Whenever I feel I might be getting a bit too smug, pompous and self-important, I'll read that again and realise how level-headed and humble I really am.

Regards

Robin

***To be honest, I really dislike the Cursed Earth epic and always have. The premise is stupid (floating rocks!), Dredd sounds like a complete prick throughout, Tweak makes me cringe, Tooty Trooty, MacDonald's and the Jolly Green Giant, the dialogue stinks and many of the individual story arcs within it are plain embarrassing.***


The "Burger Wars" episodes were written by John Wagner. The Cursed Earth gave us the only real backstory to Dredd for 30 years.

I've been trying to think of the last time Judge Edgar was seen or mentioned before this week. Was it the story where The Chief Judges Man was sent to her workfarm?

Och!  Your mouths are full of wrong!  The Cursed Earth is great stuff (although I concede the cringeworthy aspects, they were well in keeping with the Dredd strip of the day) and some of Mills' more recent work is some of his best - I'm thinking Defoe and Shadow Warriors/Volgan War ABC Warriors here.  

I just laugh at the idea that 30 years of Dredd's popularity and pop-culture penetration is somehow founded on poor creative/editorial judgement. Take away MC-1 and the inequities of the Judge system and you have another post-apocalyptic tough guy hero with a magic gun, no?  That isn't to say that the massive expansion of Dredd's world and the dose of unalloyed herosim that The Cursed Earth represented wasn't the shot in the arm that the series needed at that exact moment.

Ah, Mills.  You hadn't caused a good board argument in at least a day!  We should get one of those signs:  "2000ADonline - Mills Argument Free for 0.5 Hours!"

I admire Pat Mills greatly, and fully acknowledge the huge impact he had on early Dredd. I love The Cursed Earth too, but not as much as I love The Pit. I would say that Mills (and Alan Grant for that matter) might have their own take on Dredd, I just like John Wagners better.

I just like John Wagners better

No arguments there.

Without Mills there probably would have been no Dredd, he decided to carry on with the character after Wagner had abandoned it before the first issue.

Without Mills there probably would have been no Dredd

Also true.  Dredd as we know him really seems to have been the result of a happy accident invloving at least five men:  Mills, Wagner, Ezquerra, McMahon and Grant.  You might add Bolland to that list too, to balance up the Write-Artist ratio.  

However, only one of those guys is really responsible for getting Dredd through 30 years -  even if it wasn't his hand on the tiller for a lot of that time, Wagner's why most of us keep coming back for more.

I agree with you all, this is the best run of strips the comic has had in a good while. Wish they would all continue for 20 odd weeks!

In regards to Kingdom, my take on the voice in Gene's head and all is that he actually HAS been infested by the tick-things, or at least one of them must have burrowed its way into him. This is obviously whats been talking to him and leading him to the camp - why? Because the ticks knew Them were amassing their troops for a big assault , and the few weapons they had wasnt going to be enough to hold them off. They saw how Gene handled Them (probably they are some kind of group mind) and figured he would be a good 'bodyguard' for their camp, so set out to get him. After he blacked out in the swamp, one of them got into him and started telling him where to go, Gene mistook the words for his 'urgings'...and there we go. It seems to make sense when you consider the dialogue of the voice at the end of this weeks installment. "All you had to do was obey the rules, it was a good life," blah blah blah.
The 'next prog' tagline "Skin Deep" also suggests to me that Gene discovers he has something in him and has to try to cut it out or something...

Could be wrong though!

Im loving Stronty Dog, yeah sure its a bit familiar but its classic at the same time. This is the kind of story I associate with the so-called Golden Age of the 80s and its great that I am reading one of them right now in 2008!

Shakara is amazing - totally puts a new slant on things this time around. So it seems the main character is just an empty vessel that the spirits of the dead Shakara have been using to extract their revenge? So it isnt 'his' revenge he is seeking after all? He is just a puppet being guided by the dead souls. And it seems like hes just about had his fill of it! This is going in an interesting way.

The Dredd story is brilliant, nuff said, and Stickleback is just sensory overload. How the heck does D'israeli produce this stuff and how long does it take to do a page!? Flippi neck!

I too have to lend my voice to the groundswell of Kingdom fandom.

I tried to hate it, I really did, (I'm usually so good at hating stuff) but, it's a grower...
 
Shakara on the other hand, has never been my bag of chips, I respect what's been done in terms of  repersenting he alienness of the character and his world. But it just kinda alienated me. So it works, I guess, I just don't like it...