(https://i.imgur.com/V4o3YFE.png)
Cool. Are there more of these to come?
I'm open to requests - I was just curious as to how prolific this strip was over time.
I'd be interested to see how other long running, but intermittent, strips ebb and flow over the years:
- ABC Warriors
Anderson PSI Division
Durham Red
Nikolai Dante
Slaine
Oh Funt Solo you are something to treasure. That takes your genius to a whole different level.
Out of interest what are the totals? I'm assuming you could easily bang out the total number of episodes and pages. I remember once approximating (and it was very approximate) that Sinister Dexter was around 100 odd issues of a typical US series (I think, it was about 10 years ago I think). So I think I got to 100 x 22 pages (as it was then!) = 2200 - maybe a few more as I slightly very estimated the average page count to take into account double sized issues and the odd special.
I don't think I have the details of any of that anymore but would love to see what specific data you have.
I realized that I'd forgotten to include Downlode Tales, so I've updated it to include that:
(https://i.imgur.com/BnuWAOR.png)
I'd already included Malone, and the recent start of Dexter. It's only strip pages, and counts double-episodes as single episodes. It doesn't include covers, or text stories, or teaser posters, or 2021.
Total episodes (or, appearances) is 435, and total pages is 2381. (And 183 stories, although that splits out things like Bulletopia and The Generican Dream into separate parts.)
Very nice chart indeed!
I wonder what caused the break in 2012?
Quote from: Andrew_J on 09 January, 2021, 09:35:29 PM
I'd be interested to see how other long running, but intermittent, strips ebb and flow over the years:
- ABC Warriors
- Anderson PSI Division
- Durham Red
- Nikolai Dante
- Slaine
Nikolai Dante and Slaine will be straightforward. The other's are tricky due to crossovers so will be longer projects.
Quote from: DrJomster on 09 January, 2021, 11:17:10 PM
Very nice chart indeed!
I wonder what caused the break in 2012?
Thanks. 2011 saw the series come to a potential close with the end of Apocalypse Shtick. In the festive Prog 2012, our heroes walk away into a blank void of nothingness. It felt like the end:
(https://i.imgur.com/6v1iUZ5.png)
(I don't know, though, whether that was intended as the end.)
Okay, this one was fun:
(https://i.imgur.com/vF14Bh2.png)
I counted 365 episodes and 2346 pages (but I didn't count posters, teasers or covers).
Adding key story titles felt worthwhile on Slaine, so...
(https://i.imgur.com/BKOiWyn.png)
Nikolai Dante:
(https://i.imgur.com/eCoYxzP.png)
293 episodes and 1834 pages (from 64 stories).
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 January, 2021, 11:16:01 PM
Total episodes (or, appearances) is 435, and total pages is 2381. (And 183 stories, although that splits out things like Bulletopia and The Generican Dream into separate parts.)
Oh so my estimate wasn't that bad - if I'd made it today! But since it was like 5-10 years ago I was way off the mark. I do think its useful - for me at least) to get a sense of scope of a series to break it down into American comic run. So Yeah around 100 issues isn't too far off.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 January, 2021, 01:01:22 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/vF14Bh2.png)
Fittingly, that looks like a fast-flowing river beneath a panorama of rugged mountain peaks.
These are awesome Funt - great work.
2381 pages of Sinister Dexter eh - about the same as Slaine. Which makes me think how nice a set of 13 Ultimate Collection style HCs would look on my shelves. Shame we didn't get a complete run in the UC. Wonder if Tharg could ever be persuaded to do this? Maybe we'll see it as part of the digital first line if not a phsical print run.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 January, 2021, 01:01:22 AM
Okay, this one was fun:
(https://i.imgur.com/vF14Bh2.png)
I counted 365 episodes and 2346 pages (but I didn't count posters, teasers or covers).
Fantastic work. Experiencing some cognitive dissonance looking at that while reading Pat tweeting about how his later stuff is neglected by Rebellion in favour of the earlier IPC/Fleetway material - from that graph every page of Sláine from 2001 up to the current run is collected in a luscious non-Hachette hardback (all of which are on my shelf).
Good stuff Funt.
I saw some of Pats tweets Tordel but his earlier works are for me much better; the reason why those have been published. All Slaine/ABC Warrior series so far have been published.
This stuff just gets better and better. Its funny how 'early' Malone is. I think of that as the opening to 'modern' Sinister Dexter, more driven by the ongoing story lines. Its a shame that this has also mirrors the drop off in frequency as the current format would be far better served if the series appeared more regularly. This is absolutely underlined by Bulletopia which I think is potentially brilliant but being killed by Tharg*.
As for a lovely complete hardcover Sinister Dexter - man I've dreamt of that for so long. Alas there seems to have been so many attempts to reprint Sinister Dexter, which whatever the errors have all died on their arses. There's some glorious alternative reality where I buy another run of Progs to chop up to get my own collections bound.
*Utter guess work who knows whats behind it, so stop being so Facebook Colin!
But it makes ME made
Yes but that doesn't make it someone you've plucked from the airs fault.
BUT me, me I I...
Quote from: broodblik on 10 January, 2021, 02:12:27 PM
I saw some of Pats tweets Tordel but his earlier works are for me much better; the reason why those have been published. All Slaine/ABC Warrior series so far have been published.
That's the thing, though: what proportion of Pat's work
isn't in (luxury) print? It's not like it's just Horned God and Charley's War. have over 2 feet of bookshelf that's just Pat, and more than half of that is HB - including the
most recent ABC and Sláine, not just the classics. Looking at recent series (as opposed to Finn and mid-period dinosaur stuff) it's just a chunk of Defoe (brilliant) and a lot of Greysuit (awful) missing, for now (and both had early collections that still lurk in comic shop bargain bins and online sales, so whatever my own feelings, seem to lack a market). What other 2000AD author has most of his work appear in HB almost immediately? Not Wagner, Abnett or Rennie.
Funt's graph highlights for me just how much of Sláine is "recent" (ie Rebellion-era) material, and how lavishly it's been reprinted. I suspect an ABC Warriors graph would show the same. Pertinent issues of rights and reprint fees aside fir the moment, I think Pat underestimates how valued his later work is by readers, and thus how well it's treated by the people who make their living by flogging high-end collections.
Even if you look at example Abnett he has not that many works collected. Sin/Dex collections does not even really exists. His only work that has been completely collected is Kingdom.
Brink too. Colin's SinDex fantasy is one I share! Imagine running your fingers along 2381 pages worth of matching HB spines - with ribbons, 'natch.
Does Grant Morrison have the next highest proportion of his 2000AD work in HB?
Quote from: broodblik on 10 January, 2021, 02:12:27 PM
I saw some of Pats tweets Tordel but his earlier works are for me much better; the reason why those have been published. All Slaine/ABC Warrior series so far have been published.
The most recent (last?) ABC Warriors series-
Fallout - hasn't ever been reprinted.
Hey, you're right Jimbo! I hadn't noticed that, and it's actually longer than the three Return to... series, each of which got their own very slim HB volume. It has been less than 3 years, but it does seem odd.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 10 January, 2021, 05:02:03 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 10 January, 2021, 02:12:27 PM
I saw some of Pats tweets Tordel but his earlier works are for me much better; the reason why those have been published. All Slaine/ABC Warrior series so far have been published.
The most recent (last?) ABC Warriors series- Fallout - hasn't ever been reprinted.
Yes that is correct but you can not blame me for making the mistake since it read like many of the previous series (it is almost a re-run)
Talking of ABCs...
(https://i.imgur.com/5GLrvYx.png)
That's (under the ABC banner) 209 episodes and 1342 pages. Counting the Nemesis crossovers (books IV, V & VI) you can add 42 episodes and 216 pages. (Counts don't include posters, teasers, covers or text stories.)
Ro-Busters?
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2021, 05:40:09 PM
Hey, you're right Jimbo! I hadn't noticed that, and it's actually longer than the three Return to... series, each of which got their own very slim HB volume. It has been less than 3 years, but it does seem odd.
I'm painfully aware of the fact as I stopped getting the prog about a year before it ran, and when
Fallout started thought 'Well, I'll just get the trade.' ::)
Be interesting to see if it gets reprinted in the Ultimate Collection
before Tharg has put a book out...!
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 07:22:20 PM
Ro-Busters?
*Throws a tomato at Cosh*
Good point, though. We could include it. Plus the Starlord stuff? (I didn't include Savage, even though it ties strongly into all of this with it's Birth of Quartz. Once you get into the Millsverse, he ties you in knots.)
Narrative-wise, it's easier to drop Ro-Busters than it is to drop the Nemesis crossover (I think), but then we get the Return to Ro-Busters and Pat ties them strongly together.
---
Also wondering about how to do Durham Red, considering that her fingers are in so many pies. *Think clean thoughts*
And as for Anderson ... same pie problem.
These are absolutely deadly Funt. Who doesn't love a good graph.
Wow! Just, wow. This is so good. Thanks very much.
Am I the only one to think, "wait, SinDex is 25 years old?"
That means there will be readers who were born after it started. I know that is the case, and I know that it's not a shock. But somehow I didn't apprecaite it.
Man, I feel old.
'Quantum Salmon Leap' - perfection.
Incredible work, Funt. Thanks for this
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 January, 2021, 07:30:17 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 07:22:20 PM
Ro-Busters?
*Throws a tomato at Cosh*
Haha. Savage is linked now but it's easier to ignore for me as it's all about the production line whereas it's explicitly the same characters of Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein in Ro-Busters. Of course Starlord should be included. Don't tell me you're planning to start Strontium Dog from Galaxy Killers.
I was cataloguing the Complete Future Shocks books for Barney the other week and something quite fascinating happens around Prog 200 if you fancy tackling that.
Lovely work but I think a bar chart would look better for the page count when your dataset has so many natural gaps.
I issue a challenge: all the Edgiverse strips on one graph/chart, page totals cumulative.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2021, 10:56:08 PM
I issue a challenge: all the Edgiverse strips on one graph/chart, page totals cumulative.
Ha! And you have to visualise it as a pie/donut chart with the segments corresponding to the doors in the Temple of Mithras.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2021, 10:56:08 PM
I issue a challenge: all the Edgiverse strips on one graph/chart, page totals cumulative.
So, my Edgiverse Occult Knowledge is weak. I'm going to guess it's Leviathan, Red Seas and Stickleback that have clear links in terms of shared characters and totems. What am I missing?
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 10:50:56 PM
I was cataloguing the Complete Future Shocks books for Barney the other week and something quite fascinating happens around Prog 200 if you fancy tackling that.
I'm a little embarrassed, but I actually just had this data lying around (as Future Shocks against anthology totals*):
(https://i.imgur.com/idkyd9y.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/F7Saay3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/lChstLU.png)
I also have the separate anthologies tabulated (Twisters, Robo-Tales etc.), but when you combine everything on one chart it gets a bit messy. I didn't include the Megazine on this one, so no Black Museum (yet).
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 10:50:56 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 January, 2021, 07:30:17 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 07:22:20 PM
Ro-Busters?
*Throws a tomato at Cosh*
Haha.
You're right - bar chart looks better. Also, combines data well. This one drops the pp vs. episodes thing and just presents the episode total, which reduces clutter:
(https://i.imgur.com/G6w8Iip.png)
Ah - realized that my bar chart version of Future Shocks was incorrect as it counted the Shocks twice and then stacked. So, fixed that here:
(https://i.imgur.com/h23I1fI.png)
And then, because that kind of graph works better than a line graph, I thought this was worth sharing. You weren't imagining all those one-offs in the 80s...
(https://i.imgur.com/XJxV4eA.png)
Need to stop, but it's too much fun - revamped Sin-Dex as a combo line/bar affair, a bit more spread out:
(https://i.imgur.com/idewUcR.png)
So in 1998 Sin/Dex run for the while year?
Not quite. Prog 1100 was the single Slaine story issue, Lord of the Beasts.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2021, 02:40:02 PMThat's the thing, though: what proportion of Pat's work isn't in (luxury) print?
I don't get this either. There were people on Twitter asking Mills about this exact point, but he seemed to dodge the question or point to specific series that have been overlooked (such as the divisive Finn).
Sure, some bits of recent series haven't been collected yet (and, sadly, the mooted Metalzoic reprint came to nothing), but as others here have noted, he's had a bloody good run when it comes to 2000 AD/Rebellion, which so rarely puts out HCs. And yet he has spent so much time slagging both off, and at times veering into libellous territory.
Loving these graphs!
How about combining Caballistics, Absalom and Diaboliks? (and I suppose you could throw Necronauts in which is thematically similar if entirely unconnected plotwise).
Quote from: AlexF on 11 January, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Loving these graphs!
How about combining Caballistics, Absalom and Diaboliks? (and I suppose you could throw Necronauts in which is thematically similar if entirely unconnected plotwise).
Thanks to a reference to Necronauts by Ravne in the second Cabs story, you can make a case that it's all connected.
Quote from: broodblik on 11 January, 2021, 06:18:31 AM
So in 1998 Sin/Dex run for the while year?
Murder 101 started in prog 1051 ('97), and that run got interrupted with prog 1077 (the all-Dredd
In The Year 2120), then again with prog 1100 (all-Slaine
Lord of the Beasts) and prog 1101 (a jump-on), 1111 (a jump-off), then ends with Eurocrash in prog 1139 ('99).
That gives you an 89 prog span (with only 4 blips).
The span includes double episodes (15), triple episodes (1) and the full prog 1138 takeover.
At the time, it felt like the prog was a three-hander with Dredd and Sinister Dexter being the tent poles and Dante being the tent. All the other thrills were just a variety of circus acts.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 10 January, 2021, 10:15:25 PM
Am I the only one to think, "wait, SinDex is 25 years old?"
That means there will be readers who were born after it started. I know that is the case, and I know that it's not a shock. But somehow I didn't apprecaite it.
I can't quite claim that, but yeah - I was leaving Primary School the year SinDex started, and I'm now a dad in my mid-30s (and feeling more like mid-40s!). Meanwhile SinDex haven't managed a single grey hair between 'em!
These visualisations are brilliantly mad.
Did you do any work today, Funt? :lol:
Aye, well, no. :-\
Quote from: AlexF on 11 January, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Loving these graphs!
How about combining Caballistics, Absalom and Diaboliks? (and I suppose you could throw Necronauts in which is thematically similar if entirely unconnected plotwise).
Ka-ching!
(https://i.imgur.com/zYGP5Kt.png)
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 11:03:16 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2021, 10:56:08 PM
I issue a challenge: all the Edgiverse strips on one graph/chart, page totals cumulative.
Ha! And you have to visualise it as a pie/donut chart with the segments corresponding to the doors in the Temple of Mithras.
*ahem*
(https://i.imgur.com/Zl6wU5i.png)
And a bit less demonically:
(https://i.imgur.com/VD0sgnO.png)
*First person to mention Scarlet Traces gets sacrificed to Horus!
(https://i.imgur.com/KgY6TWR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/gjqlruQ.png)
Gosh, for a popular and super recognisable character, there hasn't been much Venus Bluegenes!
I suppose she falls into the Hershey trap - why are we telling this story about Venus/Hershey, rather than Rogue/Dredd?
Like Durham Red, she often turns up as a supporting act, although obviously Durham has had quite an extensive solo career.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 January, 2021, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 10:50:56 PM
I was cataloguing the Complete Future Shocks books for Barney the other week and something quite fascinating happens around Prog 200 if you fancy tackling that.
I'm a little embarrassed, but I actually just had this data lying around (as Future Shocks against anthology totals*):
Brilliant! I always think of the first ten years as being full of Future Shocks. I guess you're including annuals and specials so it's not immediately apparent but there's a gap of about a year and a half (Prog 135 - 203) where there aren't any. There's hardly any in 1983 either but that's because they're replaced by Time Twisters for the most part.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 January, 2021, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 11:03:16 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2021, 10:56:08 PM
I issue a challenge: all the Edgiverse strips on one graph/chart, page totals cumulative.
Ha! And you have to visualise it as a pie/donut chart with the segments corresponding to the doors in the Temple of Mithras.
*ahem*
(https://i.imgur.com/Zl6wU5i.png)
*First person to mention Scarlet Traces gets sacrificed to Horus!
Wonderful stuff. That big gap between Helium & Stickleback is especially interesting but, you know, there are actual Martians in Red Seas, so...
Obviously I take no pleasure in nitpicking over tiny details but surely your Rogue Trooper overview isn't missing the Bland & Brass strip from the Villains Special?
Quote from: I, Cosh on 13 January, 2021, 11:42:36 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 January, 2021, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 10 January, 2021, 10:50:56 PM
I was cataloguing the Complete Future Shocks books for Barney the other week and something quite fascinating happens around Prog 200 if you fancy tackling that.
I'm a little embarrassed, but I actually just had this data lying around (as Future Shocks against anthology totals*):
Brilliant! I always think of the first ten years as being full of Future Shocks. I guess you're including annuals and specials so it's not immediately apparent but there's a gap of about a year and a half (Prog 135 - 203) where there aren't any. There's hardly any in 1983 either but that's because they're replaced by Time Twisters for the most part.
Ah, yeah - 1980 has no Future Shocks in the prog, as you say - I counted two in the '81 annual and 1 in the Sci-Fi Special. (The one-offs from that year in the table are also in specials.)
The reason for this was a combination of Ro-Jaws' Robo-Tales (19 episodes in 1980) and quite a lot of Tharg stories (9 episodes).
(https://i.imgur.com/XJxV4eA.png)
Quote from: I, Cosh on 13 January, 2021, 11:42:36 AM
Obviously I take no pleasure in nitpicking over tiny details but surely your Rogue Trooper overview isn't missing the Bland & Brass strip from the Villains Special?
Ah - I get to be smug - I counted that as part of the Rogue Trooper bundle - it's in the table as part of the 2019 double-blip that also includes "Secret of the Keep" from the Regened 2130.
(https://i.imgur.com/gjqlruQ.png)
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 January, 2021, 07:57:18 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Zl6wU5i.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/VD0sgnO.png)
Golly those are frabtious! But wot, no Stone Island? ;)
To what extent is that long gap filled with Ian's other linked universe, Brass Sun/Kingmaker, and on that basis how likely is it that those stories will eventually slot into the Brotherhood of the Book scheme?
Quote from: TordelBack on 13 January, 2021, 04:49:14 PM
Golly those are frabtious! But wot, no Stone Island? ;)
To what extent is that long gap filled with Ian's other linked universe, Brass Sun/Kingmaker, and on that basis how likely is it that those stories will eventually slot into the Brotherhood of the Book scheme?
Feels like I should give the Edgiverse a re-read. Brass Sun and Kingmaker are linked? And Stone Island directly links in to the Seas / Leviathan / Stickle-thing?
Maybe I should just do a Everything-By-Edginton table.
Okay - so here are the Durham Red solo series - which don't include things like Bitch, any other SD tale that she's a supporting character in, or any of the Strontium Dogs stuff. I just don't have good notes for when she guest stars in the other things.
(https://i.imgur.com/ODCTmyA.png)
These continue to be absolutely magnificent. I'm particularly surprised how much solo Durham Red there is. I probably shouldn't be but it strike me as much more than I think.
Strontium Dog, anyone?
I've included Starlord, the prog, specials, Top Dogs and Judgement Day, but excluded Tales from the Dog House, Strontium Dogs and Durham Red:
(https://i.imgur.com/nImIzKk.png)
And, just for fun:
(https://i.imgur.com/aoMABfo.png)
In my dreams I'm hoping to find time to find data for exactly when/how often each character has appeared, whether or not in their own story. Barney does a pretty job of this, e.g. noting when Anderson and Hershey are in some epsiodes of Judge Dredd -
but really the only way to do it is to wade through each Prog one by one.
And it sounds as if I need to re-read me some Edginton, too! I'd no idea of any links between Kingmaker and Brass Sun, or if Stone Island had any connection to any of it. Next someone'll tell me the secret to unlocking the whole thing is Interceptor...
I do remember being rather sad when Leviathan turned out to be a one-off; these days I'm rather wishing Tharg would encourage Edginton to do that more often.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 13 January, 2021, 03:19:03 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 13 January, 2021, 11:42:36 AM
Obviously I take no pleasure in nitpicking over tiny details but surely your Rogue Trooper overview isn't missing the Bland & Brass strip from the Villains Special?
Ah - I get to be smug - I counted that as part of the Rogue Trooper bundle - it's in the table as part of the 2019 double-blip that also includes "Secret of the Keep" from the Regened 2130.
Damn! I thought I'd doublechecked the cover dates of the regened progs. Keep up the good work.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 13 January, 2021, 05:52:54 PM
Feels like I should give the Edgiverse a re-read. Brass Sun and Kingmaker are linked? And Stone Island directly links in to the Seas / Leviathan / Stickle-thing?
Maybe I should just do a Everything-By-Edginton table.
One of the things I like about Edginton's strips is that he's always been quite careful about implying the links rather than making them explicit. There are a couple of characters (Orlando Doyle) who have the same name and look but quite different roles and there's the Brotherhood of the Book. There's an episode of Red Seas where we see a room with 13
[citation needed] doors leading to other worlds and I think that's where the main idea of interconnection comes from.
Quote from: AlexF on 14 January, 2021, 09:38:57 AM
In my dreams I'm hoping to find time to find data for exactly when/how often each character has appeared, whether or not in their own story. Barney does a pretty job of this, e.g. noting when Anderson and Hershey are in some epsiodes of Judge Dredd.
This is something which has fallen by the wayside a bit. I do have notes for the more important characters like Hershey and Beeny which I must get round to updating, but I'd really like to get something up for the minor recurring characters who have been spreading like weeds in recent years. Your Maitlands and your Paxes, for instance.
If anybody's got notes on that feel free to message me.
Quote from: AlexF on 14 January, 2021, 09:38:57 AM
And it sounds as if I need to re-read me some Edginton, too! I'd no idea of any links between Kingmaker and Brass Sun, or if Stone Island had any connection to any of it. Next someone'll tell me the secret to unlocking the whole thing is Interceptor...
Don't know about that, but the Hinterkind series he did for Vertigo pretty clearly develops out of American Gothic...
Quote from: Funt Solo on 13 January, 2021, 05:52:54 PM
Feels like I should give the Edgiverse a re-read. Brass Sun and Kingmaker are linked? And Stone Island directly links in to the Seas / Leviathan / Stickle-thing?
I don't think Stone Island
explicitly links to anything, but it's hard not to see it as part of the multiverse that later Ampney Crucis traverses (and not just because of SBD on the crayons), possibly even specifically. Whenever the transformative forces of elder chaos batter on the dimensional doors, I imagine those doors open into the Temple of Mithras.
Brass Sun and Kingmaker do however share a critical character, so the link there
is explicit.
But lordy, Funt, Cosh and Alex debating the finer points of 2000AData on the same thread... it's like our very own Illuminati.
Quote from: AlexF on 14 January, 2021, 09:38:57 AM
In my dreams I'm hoping to find time to find data for exactly when/how often each character has appeared, whether or not in their own story. Barney does a pretty job of this, e.g. noting when Anderson and Hershey are in some epsiodes of Judge Dredd -
Ah, yes - me too. Whenever I think about this I think that there's no point in the project unless it improves on Barney (because we already have Barney).
My own data is in a terrible format when compared to a relational database, but it is useful for me - it allowed me to quickly make all the charts on this thread with just a few minutes work.
But a giant table that repeats information all over the place is not efficient (or easily searchable) - and generally doesn't include character information. I do try to get crossover stuff in there, but it involves duplicating rows. Here's my current example of Karyn, which I know is missing some key stuff (like Martyrs, for example):
(https://i.imgur.com/rniWUdx.png)
(Table extends out to show script, art, letterer etc. Columns are title, type, appearances, pp, covers, year, publication. CS == Comic Strip, P == Poster, M == Megazine, JDMS == JD Mega-Special.)
So, I did start to think about a relational database that would allow all of this to be searchable, and be able to handle something like Trifecta without blowing a digital blood vessel. The problem here is that things quickly get complicated - and after the design it would need to be built, then I'd need to build an interface to do data input, then do the data input and then build an interface to access it in a nice way etc.
Anyway - I did a design that's really a work in progress, and given my experience with RDBs, I'm not even sure if it's a good design:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ifrkeqi.png)
*I fixed the width for display to 750, but if you right click and open in a new tab you can see it full size.
And I made notes last time I worked on it (June):
1. Add contentNote and contentNoteInstance, so I can do something like attach "wraparound" or "gatefold" or "variant #1" to covers.
2. Add gigNote and gigNoteInstance, so I can do something like attach "after artistName" to an artist gig, or [adaptation] to a writer gig.
3. Maybe remove titledContent and just do the titling through the subTitle system. So: supertitle is good, but then a subTitle of rank "Title" could be used where the title is different from the supertitle. Not sure this works for things that appear under various super-titles. Like: you can only have one rank "Title" title.
Karyn is in Fetish too, iirc.
Sorry, that probably doesn't help!
Funt Solo I have NO idea what is going on in that diagram BUT my God it is just magnificent!
Quote from: davidbishop on 14 January, 2021, 05:22:42 PM
Karyn is in Fetish too, iirc.
Sorry, that probably doesn't help!
*updating spreadsheet* - thanks!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 14 January, 2021, 05:46:55 PM
Funt Solo I have NO idea what is going on in that diagram BUT my God it is just magnificent!
Yeah ... I've developed a one-to-many love/hate relationship with it. That's a database joke.
In general terms, it's trying to solve problems like "how do you deal with recording reprints", or "how do you record a list of creators where sometimes there are multiple writers, and sometimes the writer is the artist and sometimes there's a colourist and sometimes the writer on part 1 isn't the writer on part 2". Etc.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 January, 2021, 06:41:01 PM
Quote from: davidbishop on 14 January, 2021, 05:22:42 PM
Karyn is in Fetish too, iirc.
Sorry, that probably doesn't help!
*updating spreadsheet* - thanks!
Using a combination of Bishop, Barney & Funt (the lawyers you never want to call), I've updated my data on Karyn:
(https://i.imgur.com/GE3kHTD.png)
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 January, 2021, 08:31:06 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 January, 2021, 06:41:01 PM
Quote from: davidbishop on 14 January, 2021, 05:22:42 PM
Karyn is in Fetish too, iirc.
Sorry, that probably doesn't help!
*updating spreadsheet* - thanks!
Using a combination of Bishop, Barney & Funt (the lawyers you never want to call), I've updated my data on Karyn:
(https://i.imgur.com/GE3kHTD.png)
You've missed Asylum (Meg 4.05) - the story where she and Dredd first battle the beastie which later possesses her.
Thanks, Jimbo, and welcome to the practice...
(https://i.imgur.com/Wq3VGm7.png)
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 January, 2021, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 11 January, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Loving these graphs!
How about combining Caballistics, Absalom and Diaboliks? (and I suppose you could throw Necronauts in which is thematically similar if entirely unconnected plotwise).
Ka-ching!
(https://i.imgur.com/zYGP5Kt.png)
Love it! These are awesome. :)
I hadn't realised Absalom ran over nine* years. NINE! Time flies when you're having fun reading the prog!
*including a few gap years
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 January, 2021, 03:14:05 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 14 January, 2021, 09:38:57 AM
In my dreams I'm hoping to find time to find data for exactly when/how often each character has appeared, whether or not in their own story. Barney does a pretty job of this, e.g. noting when Anderson and Hershey are in some epsiodes of Judge Dredd -
Ah, yes - me too. Whenever I think about this I think that there's no point in the project unless it improves on Barney (because we already have Barney).
My own data is in a terrible format when compared to a relational database, but it is useful for me - it allowed me to quickly make all the charts on this thread with just a few minutes work.
But a giant table that repeats information all over the place is not efficient (or easily searchable) - and generally doesn't include character information. I do try to get crossover stuff in there, but it involves duplicating rows. Here's my current example of Karyn, which I know is missing some key stuff (like Martyrs, for example):
Very interesting.
FWIW I've also thought about this quite a bit. Off and on I've been messing around trying to create a little application to create my own bespoke digital GNs using a combination of the cbz files I've bought, Barney and an index of content.
Say I want to generate my own collection of every Sinister Dexter story since they arrive in Generica. I have all the files. I can get the relevant prog numbers from Barney. I can use that list to filter my files. The biggest problem I have is getting the right pages from those files into my new one. (The second biggest is handling correct page orientation in case there are splashes.) Keeps me occupied.
About your ER diagram
... takes deep breath...
If you're thinking about this as an exercise in data modelling and design then that's fair enough but as something functional for working with such a small dataset it's way too complex to me. I didn't create Barney and I'd love to be able to change some things about the database. However, it does quite a few cool things with a simple underlying structure just by smart querying.
You've already identified the biggest issue: if you normalise everything to this extent you have to spend ages building the interface to populate it. For querying and reporting though, a few views on top would give you everything you want.
Some specific comments/questions:
- I honestly got a bit lost in the supertitle/title/subtitle structure but I assume supertitle = strip and title = story name. The interface tables look pretty redundant unless you're really desperate to count the stories from the 2020 sci-fi special under both strips and, if I follow the example of "Sinister Dexter: Bulletopia: Ghostlands" being broken down, you're getting dangerously close to tblWord(ID(int), WORDNAME(varchar32))
For me Strip and Title are enough but if you want to have all the others separate then a single with the all the fields and just coalesce them into a single value for display.
- You don't need a separate table for psuedonyms. Put them in the main creator table and add a self-key field referencing the "real" creator. In your design there's no way to get from a specific pseudonym to the strips it was used on. This way you can record the pseudonym in the main "gig" table and switch between displaying real and pseudo much more easily. Of course I'm not sure how you would handle the Alan Smithee case where multiple creators use the same pseudonym at different times...
- The biggest gap (as I'm sure you're aware) is the comics themselves. As far as I can see you have one table "comicTitle" but you're going to need something to classify those into prog, meg, etc and order them. But how to order them? I'm in love with the cover date but then how do you sort everything so that the Meg 427 (which came out on the same day as prog 2212) doesn't come after prog 2216. Do you use [prev issue cover date] + 1? Or add a separate ordering field? Lots of fun, which also brings us to...
- Content. If I follow the design correctly, datestart and dateend don't belong in this table. They're both tied to the cover date of the issues they appeared in so should be pushed back there.
- Strip/Supertitle vs character. I understand why you need both, but are you really going to have [Strip].[Judge Dredd] and then add [Character].[Judge Dredd] to every story?
- Gig. For any attempt to get page counts by artist, for example, this is a huge problem. Just "episode" isn't enough. How do you handle something like the Anderson story Undertow or Victims of Bennet Beeny? No detail = all episodes, otherwise break out?
- Primary Keys. I am also old and wedded to the idea of a generated, numeric key but we don't have to think this way! PROG, MEG, INKER are all fine.
Wow, this is the longest post I've typed in ages. This was fun, lets do it again soon.
Yeah - it's mostly just borne of curiosity about how I could build something bullet proof to tackle the data - and I appreciate it is overly complex.
The supertitle/title/subtitle maze I got into was trying to tackle various odd situations...
In the Karyn example I posted up, there are four separate titles for the strip (even when she's not guest-starring in another title):
- Karyn, Psi, Division
- Karyn
- Karyn, Psi
- Visions
Or, with Abelard Snazz, there's actually no strip with that title (because it's in a Robo-Tale, or a Future Shock, or it's called "Genius is Pain: An Abelard Snazz Misadventure"). Although that's not true now since prog 2206, but you get the idea.
So, I thought of the concept of a supertitle (that, in most cases, is identical to the title, so we probably don't need to do that).
And then Trifecta...
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 January, 2021, 10:21:22 PM
The supertitle/title/subtitle maze I got into was trying to tackle various odd situations...
In the Karyn example I posted up, there are four separate titles for the strip (even when she's not guest-starring in another title):
- Karyn, Psi, Division
- Karyn
- Karyn, Psi
- Visions
Didn't realise that about those Karyn stories (I've flicked through that era of the Meg once at best) but this is a good example.
Obviously, we can safely ignore the ludicrous idea that a bunch of stories published around the same time featuring the same character are intended to be considered as one group irrespective of whether artists stuck in different logos or editors didn't bother about standardising the strip name on the front page. With that out of the way we can get on with trying to solve the problem!
Now I see what the idea of the Supertitle is but, to me, that's introducing an imaginary element you don't really need. Like you say, in most cases it is the same as the strip title.
A couple of thoughts on how you could handle this.
[tbLinkedThrills]. A simple mapping table where you record the main strip (lets assume thats the first appearance) and any others which are a continuation. Pretty simple and you can easily query in either direction (or both.) For Karyn, it looks like this would solve the problem once you combine it with your [featuring] table.
Starts to get a bit more complicated with spin-offs and split appearance though and you might also need a [tblLinkedStories] for certain situations. Is Pussyfoot 5 really a Dredd spinoff?
[tblThrillCharacters]. Mapping table which links each strip with its central characters (various other options for relationship type, e.g. main, supporting, villain) who we can then assume are in the majority of stories and thus don't need to be explicitly in [featured]. This way you add [Character].[Karyn] for each of those Thrills and union with [featuring].[Karyn] to get all relevant stories.
This one has the benefit of allowing individual characters to spin out of one story into another. For example the structure below would be the easiest way to let you fully track Dirty Frank without confusing it with other Lowlife characters. You can easily see how the same thing will work for Shimura/Inaba/Hondo City Justice/etc.
tblThrillCharacter
LOWLIFE.NIXON
LOWLIFE.FRANK
HERSHEY.HERSHEY
HERSHEY.FRANK
featuring
TITAN.NIXON
TITAN.GERHARDT
SMALLHOUSE.FRANK
SMALLHOUSE.GERHARDT
Barney has a separate category for one-off thrills, many of which later spun out into their own series with the first installment marooned there. Not sure if that story Visions fits in there by your definition but not every story will have or need its own strip title either so there needs to be a way to handle that.
Bonus points for figuring out a way to handle a group of characters like The Dark Judges.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 15 January, 2021, 02:52:22 PM
Obviously, we can safely ignore the ludicrous idea that a bunch of stories published around the same time featuring the same character are intended to be considered as one group irrespective of whether artists stuck in different logos or editors didn't bother about standardising the strip name on the front page. With that out of the way we can get on with trying to solve the problem!
*applause*
[Now I'm going to read the rest of your post.]
I know this is merely supposition, but if you were to try and actually populate this RDB the sheer amount of manual data entry would be staggering.
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 15 January, 2021, 04:42:32 PM
I know this is merely supposition, but if you were to try and actually populate this RDB the sheer amount of manual data entry would be staggering.
Yes. Although, if (the purely theoretical) we were smart about it, we might be able to trawl Barney OR trawl my magic spreadsheet to automate part of that process.
But, yeah - there are approximately 8000 things (stories, text stories, posters, articles etc.) to pop in there, each of which has lots of data associated with it (my table has 12 columns) - so about 96,000 things to add.
One of the many reasons that I often find myself stopping at the start. The design would have to be shiny-perfection in order to move forward.
This thread is by far the best porn on the internet. Have you lads thought about starting an OnlyFans? You could give up the day jobs and just talk tuples all day long for an audience of thirsty nerds...
Quote from: I, Cosh on 15 January, 2021, 02:52:22 PM
Is Pussyfoot 5 really a Dredd spinoff?
Yes! Sort of.
I have it listed as "Dreddverse: Devlin Waugh".
[Not really answering any database conundrums with this information, I realize. But I am distracting myself with a Dreddverse Map of Linked Thrills that's been in the works for a while.]
Quote from: I, Cosh on 14 January, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
FWIW I've also thought about this quite a bit. Off and on I've been messing around trying to create a little application to create my own bespoke digital GNs using a combination of the cbz files I've bought, Barney and an index of content.
Say I want to generate my own collection of every Sinister Dexter story since they arrive in Generica. I have all the files. I can get the relevant prog numbers from Barney. I can use that list to filter my files. The biggest problem I have is getting the right pages from those files into my new one. (The second biggest is handling correct page orientation in case there are splashes.) Keeps me occupied.
I considered this over the christmas break (having not written any code for a whole week my brain clearly decided it needed to think about code again). My data doesn't have page numbers in though and adding them felt like a pretty mammoth data entry task.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 15 January, 2021, 05:28:30 PM
Yes. Although, if (the purely theoretical) we were smart about it, we might be able to trawl Barney OR trawl my magic spreadsheet to automate part of that process.
This is basically my process for building the graphs I've stuck in the Ultimate Collection thread. I've got a bunch of different spreadsheets containing different data sets and some scripts that trawl them and spit out new csvs with the data munged together. It'd be simple enough to have something like that call APIs on a database to populate it instead of writing to a csv. Happy to help with that kind of thing if people want to take this further.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 15 January, 2021, 05:28:30 PM
One of the many reasons that I often find myself stopping at the start. The design would have to be shiny-perfection in order to move forward.
"Perfection is the enemy of progress" as my boss is often heard to quote as we all get bogged down in overdesigning a thing he wants finished next week.
I've been playing with a uniform format for publishing my data online. Is this nice / useful?
(https://i.imgur.com/lH2LpmA.png)
Looks shiny - I like it.
Also reminds me we've had two year gaps between stories before, so I just need to be more patient!
If you're looking a uniform format then you might want to include a Writer column for stories where authorship hasn't been consistent (Durham Red, Indigo Prime, VCs as a few examples). Your heading would then be the original creator credits for the series.
It pleases and sparkles - I'd love to see a resource as clear and as useful as this.
Yes, a thing of great clarity and usefulness!
Quote from: sintec on 30 March, 2021, 08:01:48 AM
If you're looking a uniform format then you might want to include a Writer column for stories where authorship hasn't been consistent (Durham Red, Indigo Prime, VCs as a few examples). Your heading would then be the original creator credits for the series.
Thanks, sintec - I hadn't thought of original creator credits - I'll do that.
Currently running some test on compressing some of the column headers to make room for wider tables, and also getting some hover-text to show up for who did the covers. (Trying to get an implementation that works on touch screens as well as mouse-y things.)
Quote from: Funt Solo on 15 January, 2021, 05:28:30 PM
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 15 January, 2021, 04:42:32 PM
I know this is merely supposition, but if you were to try and actually populate this RDB the sheer amount of manual data entry would be staggering.
Yes. Although, if (the purely theoretical) we were smart about it, we might be able to trawl Barney OR trawl my magic spreadsheet to automate part of that process.
But, yeah - there are approximately 8000 things (stories, text stories, posters, articles etc.) to pop in there, each of which has lots of data associated with it (my table has 12 columns) - so about 96,000 things to add.
One of the many reasons that I often find myself stopping at the start. The design would have to be shiny-perfection in order to move forward.
Regarding the data entry task - you could crowdsource it. Say export to a shared online spreadsheet (google sheets, for example) get some trusted people with the requisite progs and megs (us lot) to tackle a series or year each, then import it all back and hope that transfers haven't introduced any formatting issues along the way.
Great idea, although at the moment I'm shying away from a searchable database and focusing instead on my A-to-Z idea.
Just fiddling with some routines that can automate a lot of the process and turn my 7967 rows into HTML tables with a minimum of extra effort. My Kingdom test (above) worked quite well, and I just need to pop in a couple of routines to deal with edge cases (e.g. multiple artists) and it'll be good to go.
Currently linking some stuff up (the last thing was collecting all the Otto Sump stories), and tooth-combing some of the older annuals for non-story content. Should be ready to go by ... sometime this decade.