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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1542749 times)

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18435 on: 06 May, 2021, 09:40:55 AM »
I don't follow that Scottish independence is much like Brexit.
Although many aspects of it aren’t, some are. There’s that idea that 50%+1 is enough, rather than broader consensus. There’s hand-waving away important considerations like the economy and, now, land borders. I get it — and I suspect independence would, in the long run, be the best option for Scotland. But there is overlap with Brexit, even if the primary reasoning is in reality different.

Nevertheless, majority voted for it, it won't be democracy if we test it every few years continually. Democracy isn't perfect and doesn't always work, but it's the only (most) trustful system we have today.
Two things there. Democracy is literally resting things continually. That’s what elections are. Democracy isn’t making a decision that’s forever. One of the UK’s most stringiest rules is that no parliament can bind its predecessor.

But on democracy in general, it’s a good thing, but it’s strongly dependent on systems and people playing by the rules. The USA and UK have in recent years shown what happens when people just don’t care about the rules. As for systems, that showcases the weakness at the heart of British democracy.

Our elections are not designed to provide representative government. Instead, they are provided to give total power to whoever wins more votes than whoever’s in second. It would be feasible if five parties were running across the entire UK for one to gain 100% of the seats on a little over 20% of the vote. That’s of course never happened, but we’ve had seats won on a little over 20% of the vote, and Blair’s Labour won a majority of seats with a little over a third of the vote. The system is broken.

As for Brexit being democratic, it was. But it also used the most idiotic referendum set-up imaginable. Let’s look at what happens elsewhere:

- Ireland has a vote on abortion. It pits the status quo against a policy document. In the event of a no vote, everything stays the same. In the event of a yes, people know what they’ll get.

- Switzerland frequently has referendums where the destination is fluid. So when that happens, they have the vote, discover the consequences (like with the recent free movement mess) and then get a confirmatory referendum to decide whether to stick with the original decision.

The UK? We did the worst of both: pitting the status quo against aspirational woolliness, without any confirmatory ballot once the destination was shown.

In short, democracy is only as strong as the systems that comprise its foundations.

As for everything else, what Jim said. We’ve already lost thousands of companies, millions of people and billions of pounds. COVID has shielded then Tories from much of this. People aren’t aware of the massive damage that’s been done. And worse is on the way. Everything the Tories will do in terms of eradicating rights will be dressed up as “hard decisions to get the UK back on track after COVID”. The insular nature of our society and our news means enough people will lap that up, rather than look further afield and see how aghast the rest of the world is at what the UK has become. Meanwhile, an overly expensive boat named after a dead royal will sail to countries with the aim of securing trade deals, like a sketch from The Day Today, because the Tories live in the 1800s.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18436 on: 06 May, 2021, 11:42:29 AM »
That's hardly "North Korea" is it? And UK expats (immigrants to everyone else) are already complaining about loss of their residential status in EU countries and having to come back to the UK, UK travellers have complained about having to use the non-EU queues at immigration — it's only the fact that the pandemic has all but stopped international travel that's kept this from being a major issue on the front pages of the tabloid (although obviously framed as a nefarious EU plot to victimise the UK).

It's only been five months since Brexit actually happened, and the Tories are already floating ideas of employment "reform" (transl: stripping all the EU employment rights out of UK legislation), ending judicial review, bringing back the death penalty. Wait until the pandemic is behind us (whenever the fuck that will be) and see what further legislative gems they have in store…

Hardly - yes, but (my) impression is close. Particularly after Trump's subsequent victory, where Tories quickly grew close to him. Tbh, I don't know what would Labour do if given chance to the throne, but I am not a fan of them, either.
One thing this pandemic definitely did: it postponed some hot issues. Now the concern for the life out of EU (I remember the quote:"now EU has a GB of free space") is replaced with the worries about virus and vaccines (of which I, btw, ain't taking for now).
Right you lot. Shut up, belt up, and if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18437 on: 06 May, 2021, 11:44:34 AM »
I don't follow that Scottish independence is much like Brexit.
Although many aspects of it aren’t, some are. There’s that idea that 50%+1 is enough, rather than broader consensus. There’s hand-waving away important considerations like the economy and, now, land borders. I get it — and I suspect independence would, in the long run, be the best option for Scotland. But there is overlap with Brexit, even if the primary reasoning is in reality different.

Nevertheless, majority voted for it, it won't be democracy if we test it every few years continually. Democracy isn't perfect and doesn't always work, but it's the only (most) trustful system we have today.
Two things there. Democracy is literally resting things continually. That’s what elections are. Democracy isn’t making a decision that’s forever. One of the UK’s most stringiest rules is that no parliament can bind its predecessor.

But on democracy in general, it’s a good thing, but it’s strongly dependent on systems and people playing by the rules. The USA and UK have in recent years shown what happens when people just don’t care about the rules. As for systems, that showcases the weakness at the heart of British democracy.

Our elections are not designed to provide representative government. Instead, they are provided to give total power to whoever wins more votes than whoever’s in second. It would be feasible if five parties were running across the entire UK for one to gain 100% of the seats on a little over 20% of the vote. That’s of course never happened, but we’ve had seats won on a little over 20% of the vote, and Blair’s Labour won a majority of seats with a little over a third of the vote. The system is broken.

As for Brexit being democratic, it was. But it also used the most idiotic referendum set-up imaginable. Let’s look at what happens elsewhere:

- Ireland has a vote on abortion. It pits the status quo against a policy document. In the event of a no vote, everything stays the same. In the event of a yes, people know what they’ll get.

- Switzerland frequently has referendums where the destination is fluid. So when that happens, they have the vote, discover the consequences (like with the recent free movement mess) and then get a confirmatory referendum to decide whether to stick with the original decision.

The UK? We did the worst of both: pitting the status quo against aspirational woolliness, without any confirmatory ballot once the destination was shown.

In short, democracy is only as strong as the systems that comprise its foundations.

As for everything else, what Jim said. We’ve already lost thousands of companies, millions of people and billions of pounds. COVID has shielded then Tories from much of this. People aren’t aware of the massive damage that’s been done. And worse is on the way. Everything the Tories will do in terms of eradicating rights will be dressed up as “hard decisions to get the UK back on track after COVID”. The insular nature of our society and our news means enough people will lap that up, rather than look further afield and see how aghast the rest of the world is at what the UK has become. Meanwhile, an overly expensive boat named after a dead royal will sail to countries with the aim of securing trade deals, like a sketch from The Day Today, because the Tories live in the 1800s.

You know, I heard saying that we wouldn't have elections if elections can change anything. In modern times, I will have to agree with that.
Right you lot. Shut up, belt up, and if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18438 on: 06 May, 2021, 11:51:12 AM »
vaccines (of which I, btw, ain't taking for now).

That's the end of this conversation for me.
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JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18439 on: 06 May, 2021, 12:20:00 PM »
Quote
Don't know who the nobody is, as I firmly remember people bleating online:"omg, we'll be sealed off the Europe, with the limit of movement to other countries severely imposed, that Tories would bend the country to their will" and so on.

Apart from the hyperbole of the 'sealed off' bit, I'd say those bleatings weren't far wrong.
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Barrington Boots

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18440 on: 06 May, 2021, 12:21:55 PM »
..vaccines (of which I, btw, ain't taking for now).

FFS
Sort yourself out.
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milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18441 on: 06 May, 2021, 12:50:39 PM »
FFS
Sort yourself out.

I'm already sorted, mate!
Right you lot. Shut up, belt up, and if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Barrington Boots

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18442 on: 06 May, 2021, 12:58:27 PM »
You're no mate of mine. People I care about are literally risking their lives on a daily basis whilst you put your own desire not to be inconvenienced over other peoples wellbeing.
You're a dark horse, Boots.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18443 on: 06 May, 2021, 01:08:07 PM »
"Over other people wellbeing".

So do I get vaccinated for myself or for them? Nevermind. But talking about wellbeing of others, why would I get the shot over people who are in more need of that than me? You know, old and physically weak. Those that had some tough disease prior that squandered their immune system. I couldn't bear that someone might die because I took the shot instead of them. My 86 year old grandma took one, and we are not rife with vaccines.
Right you lot. Shut up, belt up, and if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18444 on: 06 May, 2021, 01:13:08 PM »
Board rules on vaccination discussion have been noted multiple times recently. If this thread is derailed into an anti-vaxx argument, it will be locked. Anti-vaccination sentiment will not be tolerated, and so please consider that a general warning.

Barrington Boots

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18445 on: 06 May, 2021, 01:18:28 PM »
Ok Milstar, so I don't want to get in an argument with someone on the internet as it's the biggest waste of time I can think of, nor do I want this thread to be locked or personally be sanctioned on this forum, so I will just say this:

I shouldn't have risen to what you said and the comments you made, that's on me for starting this.

I'm not interested in debating this with you.

Based on what you've said I have no interest or respect for your opinions and I won't be reading nor responding to anything you say going forward.
You're a dark horse, Boots.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18446 on: 06 May, 2021, 01:37:04 PM »
Ok Milstar, so I don't want to get in an argument with someone on the internet as it's the biggest waste of time I can think of, nor do I want this thread to be locked or personally be sanctioned on this forum, so I will just say this:

I shouldn't have risen to what you said and the comments you made, that's on me for starting this.

I'm not interested in debating this with you.

Based on what you've said I have no interest or respect for your opinions and I won't be reading nor responding to anything you say going forward.

Good. Likewise.
Right you lot. Shut up, belt up, and if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18447 on: 06 May, 2021, 01:38:55 PM »
Board rules on vaccination discussion have been noted multiple times recently. If this thread is derailed into an anti-vaxx argument, it will be locked. Anti-vaccination sentiment will not be tolerated, and so please consider that a general warning.

I was not aware of them, but if that's the case, I'll comply. Btw, I do not consider myself as anti-vaxxer, so no further comments from me on this.
« Last Edit: 06 May, 2021, 01:40:50 PM by milstar »
Right you lot. Shut up, belt up, and if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18448 on: 06 May, 2021, 03:11:25 PM »
I don't follow that Scottish independence is much like Brexit.
Although many aspects of it aren’t, some are. There’s that idea that 50%+1 is enough, rather than broader consensus. There’s hand-waving away important considerations like the economy and, now, land borders. I get it — and I suspect independence would, in the long run, be the best option for Scotland. But there is overlap with Brexit, even if the primary reasoning is in reality different.

Ah, yes - I see what you mean. Me being somewhat biased, I quite like 50%+1 for Indyref2, but didn't like it for Brexit. Ha!


---

Talking of North Korea - I was chatting to a US school student the other day about the flag ceremony: the daily Pledge of Allegiance that every (federally-funded) school child in the US has to make every day*. They asked me "Is there any other country that does this?", to which I replied "Maybe North Korea?"


*Actually, they don't have to, because of their First Amendment right to free speech, which includes the freedom not to speak. But the ceremony must take place - that's the law!
« Last Edit: 06 May, 2021, 03:16:45 PM by Funt Solo »
++ map ++ thrills ++ coma ++

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18449 on: 06 May, 2021, 03:40:20 PM »
I wouldn’t be surprised if the UK heads down that path. Plus we already have the mandated daily act of worship in English/Welsh schools, to weed out those unbelievers and get them picked on by other kids, along with confusing the crap out of really young children, by inferring that all these old myths are facts. Fun.