I'm surprised there's been no thread for the new series of Doctor Who. Have you all given up on it?
I'm enjoying this latest series for the 13th Doctor. The TARDIS got a little crowded last two series with three others - her Fam - having to have screen time but I enjoyed tonight's episode with the Sontarans. Last week was a little hectic but this week was a good story given time to breath. John Bishop as Dan is an enjoyable addition and I like his doggy guardian - I keep hearing Sean Bean under the fur but it can't be him, he'd have died by now if it was.
All that "time is evil" stuff has me half expecting Sapphire and Steel to turn up at any moment.
Like I've already said elsewhere: I won't pretend tonight's episide made a whole lot of sense but I really rather enjoyed it, in a mad 'Brain of Morbius' kind of way. Arguably a very low bar, but easily the best Chibnall-era episode by some way. It actually *felt* like Doctor Who.
Finally forced myself to watch the first episode and both myself and Mrs. VB enjoyed it enough. Mrs. VB proclaimed it was the best one she'd seen with Whittaker (she is not a fan of the Lady Doctor). If they could dial back a little more of the awful humour and stick to the last 10 minutes of this episode they may have something for this series.
Haven't watched this week's yet, but I thought the first one in this series was good fun. As always, my low expectations for the new companions were rightfully exceeded. John Bishop is excellent.
I thought it was fun enough, albeit a bit too chaotic, and I'm a bit sad we still don't really know who this Doctor is (beyond a plot device and means for feeding the audience exposition). Mrs IP said: meh.
I thought the first episode was a hot mess - Instead of teasing out the series-arc, they chose to start with the huge apocalyptic end-of-the-universe climax and then work backwards with excerpts from the main stpories we'll see, effectively spoilering the rest of the series.
Having said that, I did enjoy the second one quite a lot with Napoleonic Sontarans.
I think that companions are getting too smart though whilst the doctor seems less capable - Yaz is running around fixing spaceships and essentially doing solo missions, whilst the new scouse bloke, after just one confusing adventure, takes it upon himself to break into a Sontaran base armed with a wok. I missed the days when companions were there to scream, get captured or ask exposition questions.
(PS - I too wondered why there was no thread because I didn't connect the title, thought it was just some book or show I didn't know)
I've enjoyed both episodes so far. Don't ask me to tell you WHY I enjoyed them but I did.
I think it's as much of a mess as ever - if getting less things wrong without getting more things right is an improvement, then possibly it is an improvement, but thats about it
SPOILERS
[spoiler]
Karvanista is part of (the only remaining part of) The secret Timelord Organisation and a murderous not to be messed with sort for reasons unclear.
He is also part of a race that is duty bound to help humans in this one specific apocalypse that they have prepared for and have an answer to for reasons unclear
They can stop the Earth being destroyed by covering the Earth with their ship shield (which they didnt plan for, that was just the Doctor's idea!) Not the moon though, or the Sun presumably.... but somehow we have to assume both survived given that Dan is transported back to Earth a few days after the Flux hits. The Lupari have by this point fecked off to places unclear, depste knowing the Sontarans have landed - what happened to that duty to protect humans? Doesnt help those executed by the Sontarans.... but that's the reason we are given Karvanista turns back up to save Dan.
"How long have Sontarans been here?" asks the Doctor- TWIST!!! They are all through History in the Crimean Period - Russia is Sontar. Next scene in 21st C "How long have Sontarans been here?" "2 days"
Sontarans all have a kip at the same time - Strategic Geniuses they may be, but they havent worked out the concept of sentries.
Doctor tells the Sontarans they need to leave now, or they wont leave alive. Sontarans temporarily inconvenienced, say they will return... General gets shit for blowing up Sontaran ships, Dan is praised for it.[/spoiler]
And thats not even mentioning the Swarm...
Chibnall is just writing in his usual fashion - things happen to move the plot on, then something contradictory happens to move it on again. Similar to his characterisation and the "moral" messages - its not OK to kill Sontarans, except when you are wiping them out of existence... The Doctor has a very out of sight out of mind approach to this kind of stuff doesnt she? Lock the threat in a sealed room or a stasis pod, or stop them ever existing - morally fine. Actually getting your hands dirty? perish teh thought!
Mm. That's one of the more distasteful aspects of how this Doctor has been written and, sadly, one of the few specific things we know about her. I'm really unhappy about the way this has all gone. Whittaker herself is great for this role. The writing has been extremely variable throughout he run. But the writing for her specific character has been abysmal.
Treading carefully here as we've only watched the first one tonight and well... there was a lot going on wasn't there. I mean I know its setting up an ongoing story line but really did so much have to be thrown at the first episode, did all the elements need to be in there.
'Cos there was so much it lacked any cohesion as a single episode and so its almost impossible to judge in and of itself and we'll see how it holds up once its all strung together.
Given that it's a Chibnall Doctor Who, I suspect anyone hoping for cohesion and coherence is on a hiding to nothing. Doctor Who, more than ever, needs a script editor to throw scripts back at writers and say: "Make this make sense, or I'll do it." RTD had this problem. Moffat was arguably worse. Chibnall is worse still. It'll be interesting to see whether RTD has someone in that role, but I doubt it.
Big drop off in enjoyment with the second episode. A raging hot mess really that did very little to advance the overall arc, I thought. This episode could have been called War: A Comedy of Pointless Jokes.
I've only watched modern Doctor Who sporadically as I've always felt they have a hit rate (for me) of about 1 episode in 3. But I actually managed to watch the entirety of it (from Rose onwards) during lockdown, and for most of it I was much more impressed than I expected to be. It did feel though, that the last two series (11 and 12) were much less satisfying than those that had gone before it. I think Whittaker's take on the doctor was a noble experiment - a laudable attempt to strip the character of that patrician charm where he walks around the place like he owns it, to somebody a bit more relatable who can show a more vulnerable side. But for some reason, it just doesn't come off. She comes over sometimes a bit inconsequential and even gormless. Something the doctor should never be, IMO. The whole man/woman of the people thing was done a lot better by Eccleston, I think.
I always find the comments section interesting in The Guardian, as there it's considered very gauche to say nothing but positive comments about the current incarnation, and reason to me seems to be because the show has become a proxy for the wider cultural war. As a lefty kind of guy, I'd love to say it's all a cracking success, but it just ain't, to the point where I don't truly believe people who say they do enjoy it. There's just so much that isn't working about modern Who, from script to direction to performances. I don't hate it, and each season so far with Chibnall has had sparks of something good about to happen, but they seem to be few and fleeting.
One thing that has always got my goat with modern Who (and this is not just Chibnall-era) is what I call "non-peril scene of peril". This is when the protagonists are in what appears to be a highly dangerous situation, yet treat it as if it's nothing, thus undercutting any sense of danger. The cold opening of the first episode in Flux was a case in point. What's the point? I guess it's to show how "bad-ass" the Doctor and Yaz now are, but surely they'd still look cool if they'd take the situation seriously and still managed to extricate themselves? I watched it my son, who's nearly 18 and hasn't watched since the Matt Smith era, and I felt embarrassed I suggested we watch it. What an awful first impression! The rest was a lot better but mostly amounted to setting a lot of plates spinning. I'll continue to watch and continue to hope it gets a bit better.
There have been elements of undercutting right from RTD's time, though, and he also pushed hard that element of 'everything, ever, is under threat—again', along with the tiresome trope about humans repeatedly forgetting about being invaded. What he did get right was a kind of humanity at the core of Doctor Who. He also at least wrote the women of his stories fairly well, with Rose being a fairly compelling entry point and Donna Noble being surprisingly interesting and smartly written.
Moffat, by contrast, seemed to consider women puzzles to be solved or plot points to hang bits of his intertwined threads from (bar, possibly, Bill Potts), while Chibnall doesn't appear remotely interested in giving his female characters any actual character at all. It's quite something how under-developed Yasmin is at this point, but even more so how blank slate The Doctor herself is. Really, the Fugitive Doctor had more impact and stronger characterisation in two appearances than Whittaker's. That's a crying shame for Whittaker, but also for Jo Martin's Doctor who'll presumably be ret-conned into the void before or shortly after RTD returns.
Again, a lot of these problems come down to no-one having the power to make writers justify their choices and decisions. No-one is asking why or what nearly enough in this show. I can't imagine that'll change when RTD returns either.
I'm a bit more bullish about RTD returning, and Bad Wolf taking over production from BBC in-house. As it should (hopefully) allow people to make those decisions, and allow RTD to take responsibility over where the series takes the doctor, and the 14th doctor's character arc. Years and Years was very decent I think, although the sci-fi elements with the futuristic AR hacking were abysmal, which has a deep irony seeming as who was helming the show!
I think Chibnall has tried to turn the clock back in a sense, and go back to the Baker-era where "assistants" (as they were called then) weren't meant to have deep backstories and were just conduits for the doctor's soliloquies so he didn't look like he was talking to himself. I'm not always RTD's biggest fan, but I think he knew when he relaunched the show that a modern take on the doctor had to do a lot more than that.
I think New Whos problems are all of its own making, rather tha anyhting inherited from the Classic, outside of a general "they did stories that were rubbish in the 60s and 70s too" justification you can hear whirring in the background of any given modern "The Moon is an Egg" type story.
Mostly they stem from the leeway for poor plotting/resolution if it pushes character/emotional buttons that RTD had. Sadly, Chibnall is entirely trying to be RTD I think, but without much clue (or ability) to know what RTD was sacrificing for what benefit. Chibnall throws away the plot sense with a simialr abandon to RTD. However, the sacrifices arent to aid character or spectacle or whatever RTD would utilise to keep the viewership engaged. But it's entirely RTD who set the precedent with this "only m*ng m*ngs complain about plot" attitude.
Chibnall is attempting to cook the same pie, because he knows the list of RTDs successful ingredients, but has no clue about the recipe.
Yep—that about sums it up for me. RTD wrote nonsense but it was compelling and full of heart. (A pity, then, that it turns out the production under his watch was a shitshow and that his attitude towards Eccels was so abhorrent that there's no chance getting him back for any more appearances on the telly.) Moffat dialled up the horror (good) and the intrigue (mixed) but threw character out of the windows (bad) and started panicking regarding the failure of the series with kids (WTF sonic sunglasses).
Chibnall has perfectly reasonable ideas. Some of his scripts and episodes have been really good. But his characterisation is dreadful, and, as Leigh said, his tendency to not care about logic doesn't work so well when his version of the show rests on characters that are often so thin they'd disappear if they turned 90 degrees. That's especially the case with the women. And that's a big problem when two thirds of the leads in the current series are women.
This still makes me angry. This could and should have been a turning point and a proving ground. Instead, loads of idiots are now arguing that Doctor Who is woke central and that every figure incarnation should be a white man. It's also a big, big waste of Whittaker, who is in many ways excellent, but who's been let down horribly.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 11 November, 2021, 04:14:30 PMChibnall doesn't appear remotely interested in giving his female characters any actual character at all.
It's not just his women, nobody sounds real. Davies and Moffat wrote many memorable supporting characters with distinct personalities and voices for their 45 minutes' existence. Chibnall's characters just don't behave or sound like real people. That scouse family really got on my tits, and Dan seems to be carved from the same block of wood as Ryan. Bradley Walsh may have been another chirpy regional-sterotype comic sidekick, but at least he could act.
Seems weird that people seem to be slagging off just about everyone who's run the show they've been following for 16 years.
I read elsewhere that in this book "A/The Writers Tale", RTD said something along the lines of "I have no problem sacking anyone who doesnt work as hard as I do".
Given how I believe RTD himself admits that he worked himself into some form of a breakdown/nervous exhaustion, it's not that difficult to see why Eccleston would have issues.
AS IP said, Chibnall has muddied the waters when it comes to a female Doctor, not because a female Doctor doesnt work, but becasue a Chibnall Doctor doesnt work
Quote from: Dandontdare on 11 November, 2021, 08:15:07 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 11 November, 2021, 04:14:30 PMChibnall doesn't appear remotely interested in giving his female characters any actual character at all.
It's not just his women, nobody sounds real. Davies and Moffat wrote many memorable supporting characters with distinct personalities and voices for their 45 minutes' existence. Chibnall's characters just don't behave or sound like real people. That scouse family really got on my tits, and Dan seems to be carved from the same block of wood as Ryan. Bradley Walsh may have been another chirpy regional-sterotype comic sidekick, but at least he could act.
Seems weird that people seem to be slagging off just about everyone who's run the show they've been following for 16 years.
Its a show I was watching for a lot longer than 16 years though and thats the point isnt it?
I spent my childhood with Tom and learned to read with Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee Target books.
I only ended up reading 2000AD due to Mills and Wagner writing those Doctor Who weekly stories.
I thought the Eccleston year was a great if qualified success.
Sadly, my belief that they would iron out the kinks fell on barren soil - I was a m^ng m*ng fo wanting the stories plots to have as much thought put into them as their emotional arcs.
It was no surprise that Moffatt working with RTD got us the best stories of that era, and when Moffatt first took over, we had another pretty great and promising series, followed by diminishing returns until we get to the Clara years where the stories appear to be Moffatt channelling a mid life crisis. His final series was a good step up (ignoring his treatment of the First Doctor)....
Chibnall, well, Chibnall is just not of the calibre of either of those writers for all their individual faults. All he can do is parrot stuff he sees in those eras, faults and all.
If I'd taken an "I will stop following this thing I love because it is going through an extended rough patch" then I wouldnt be on a 2000AD forum!
Bits of this are starting to make sense (though I'm not quite sure about the excellent and very watchable Jo Martin's Doctor leading an SAS squad) but that was quite a dull and jerky way of getting there.
I intend to binge watch this in a couple of weeks, when the missus is away with her sister for a few days* and I can have a bottle or two of wine and disengage the brain.
*I am not committing to getting out my PJs.
After a decent second episode, Chibnall has gone back to throwing a dozen different plots at the screen at a breakneck pace to mask how poor it is. A disjointed and confusing episode
Mrs IP: "I don't know what the fuck is going on."
I got some strands of it, but I just don't *care* what is going on. This is Chibnall at his worst, making Doctor Who impenetrable. Also, someone whose mission is love kills a being and calls them an idiot? Hrng.
I've not a lot invested in this, but it does seem that everything is just getting thrown into the melting pot and then thrown against to wall to see what sticks... total overload but no substance. Great cast wasted running about and SHOUTING!
anyone for a jellybaby?
Given the individual components in the last episode, it was strange how it just all felt so boring. So flat and dull. I'm not sure what's wrong: my own response to this, the scripting or the direction. The cast, at least, seems solid. But I'm just not invested in any of it. I couldn't give two hoots what happens to the characters at this point, including the Doctor. And that's not good.
With the two previous eras of this show, there were things I missed when the people stepped down. I'm struggling with this one beyond abstracts ("a Doctor who isn't make", "going a bit heavier on history and education"). There have been good episodes, but the one thing I think I'll fundamentally miss is Segun Akinola, who'll inevitably be turfed out when RTD rocks up and demands the theme be turned into a bombastic hellscape again (and the internal music ramped up so you can't hear any of the dialogue). I hope not, though, because Akinola's theme is one of the best from the show's entire run.
Is it just me or is John Bishop appalling - not his character but his acting. It's sort of flat and utterly unconvincing, maybe he's capable of a good performance but they haven't got it from him yet, but just ugh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noaMIy_FWsA&t=519s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noaMIy_FWsA&t=519s)
Just watched Episode 2 and ... well... does it get any better?
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Well... Episode Three is atrocious, so I would say no. I'll get back to you once I see the fourth episode.
I think the common factor here is Chibnall. Imagine being asked to perform the scene where your door i smashed down by an axe wielding figure and your reaction is "whats it with you lot tonight?"
Or your miniaturised house is handed to you and you have to say "How am I meant to fit in that?"
The greatest actors would (and do!) struggle with his insipid, unnatural dialogue and paper thin plotting
Quote from: pauljholden on 17 November, 2021, 02:18:17 PM
Is it just me or is John Bishop appalling - not his character but his acting. It's sort of flat and utterly unconvincing, maybe he's capable of a good performance but they haven't got it from him yet, but just ugh...
I dunno, everyone else has to work their way through awful dialogue, it strikes me those lines were written with the hope a Bishop would make them funny based on his normal dry delivery, but Bishop's delivery is pretty flat.
That's a fair point, though I do think a big factor is how hard it is to embue human rections to such unnatural dialogue.
As for this weeks, the Maxine Alderton factor failed to materialise... that said, has there been a decent Weeping Angels story outside Blink?
AS originally conceived they just dont work in anything but very very narrow scenarios, so various bells and whistles keep getting added until they are just a playground monster that has random powers to keep the plot moving - place such a monster in a Chris "anything goes if it keeps the plt moving" Chibnall story and we get this mess...
I did laugh when 13 wandered off early on to "investigate" a signal with her sonic - Jay Exci's video 100% accuracy rate maintained
I didn't even realise Dr Who was back on until I accidentally stumbled across it tonight.
I'd stopped watching around the end of Jodi W's first year. Tonight's episode was much better than anything I'd seen since Capaldi's last season. Apparently I've missed three episodes of this story, but it was still easy to just pick up most of what was happening as it went along (it helped that I already knew who the angels were). I thought the angels were scary enough, and that the characters were facing enough threat to keep me interested. The two time zones colliding and the little girl [spoiler]talking to her future self[/spoiler] were brilliant, and the edge of the village [spoiler]just turning into empty space[/spoiler] looked spectacular.
I've no doubt that the criticism of earlier episodes in this thread is justified, but this episode was good fun and Im looking forward to next week's.
Well that was an improvement, they should have started with this one.
I strongly suspect that what we have here is a clever time-twisty Maxine Alderton story about angels in a village, with proper human characters and dialogue, that Chibnall has hammered into his Division plot. The former sections in the village were great, the rest ... not so much.
I thought it was an improvement. I cared a bit about the characters. It looked very good. The acting wasn't bad. The script was coherent, despite, as Dan said, the Division thing being smashed into this with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.
Mrs IP summed it up though: "I'm happy to give shows a chance, but I shouldn't have to wait for episode four of Doctor Who, a show I've been watching for years, for it to get good."
I'm just glad it was better than the finale of The Morning Show (which is the worst piece of television I've watched in a long, long time).
Quote from: pauljholden on 17 November, 2021, 02:18:17 PM
Is it just me or is John Bishop appalling - not his character but his acting. It's sort of flat and utterly unconvincing, maybe he's capable of a good performance but they haven't got it from him yet, but just ugh...
'Uncontrollable urge to make a Scouse joke'
As it has been said this was an improvement from last week, however, last week lowered the bar to such a degree I'm waiting to see if they can manage two episodes in a row before making any judgements on this one.
I was half watching the third episode as the family watched it and from that perspective it worked quite well. It was a decent character piece - even with the poweeerrr offff luuuuvvvv stuff. Reading the comments here I think I'll not bother to watch it any closer and skip ahead to the 4th!
Expecting some kind of clever twist to magic us out of the fan fiction was perhaps a bit much - it's not as if Chibnall has ever shown he hs any finesse as a writer.
But that was a painful 50 minutes or so - even if it had been "better", not reliant on a plot skeleton of a 100% coincidences, who would this appeal to? Casual viewers surely just want "adventures in Time and Space". I;d guess most fans want the Doctor's mystery preserved, but eeven if they all were gagging for the Doctor to meet her mom, what % of the audience is that?
How the Beeb let that snotty nosed knob goblin from "Open Air" take control of the show...thats some Long game. somewhere, I see Michael Grade pulling his rubber mask off to reveal the Master - Zoom shot! SCREEEEEE_ WUDDLE_U_DUM_DE WUDDLE_DUM...
Really disappointed with this week's episode, I've only enjoyed 2 and 4 so far. Hoping that the even number success continues with the finale. Bah.
For a full review of this weeks episode. Let's go to the Simpsons:
Lisa: Perhaps there is no moral to this story.
Homer: Exactly! It's just a bunch of stuff that happened.
I finally watched episode 5 last night and thought it was bollocks. Now, that could be entirely my own fault for missing the first three episodes, but on the other hand I could still follow and enjoy episode 4. So I suspect that the real problem is what Dan said:
Quote from: Dandontdare on 22 November, 2021, 09:57:40 PM
I strongly suspect that what we have here is a clever time-twisty Maxine Alderton story about angels in a village, with proper human characters and dialogue, that Chibnall has hammered into his Division plot. The former sections in the village were great, the rest ... not so much.
5 wasn't as bad as 1–3, but 4 was the only highlight of this series. Him doubling down on rewriting the entire canon of the show before he buggers off really grates as well. RTD's said he won't revert either.
I predict a story that says Whitaker was not the 'real' Doctor only a being that somehow confused either own identity with the Doctor's when s/he regenerated. Instant reset.
That would still be complicated, since we watched Peter Capaldi turn into Jodie Whitaker. They should just never mention it ever again.
Perhaps they can ret-con this mess away by making the entire thing a nefarious Master plot. Although that serves Jo Martin particularly poorly. Bah. Chibnall really has made a horrible mess.
Quote from: Richard on 03 December, 2021, 02:27:57 PM
That would still be complicated, since we watched Peter Capaldi turn into Jodie Whitaker. They should just never mention it ever again.
True. I still think the Dallas shower/dream option is best.
There is no need to retcon the plot - the idea of the doctor having past lives in service to some Gallifreyan black ops unit is valid and interesting - I just wish the execution wasn't so fucking awful.
Tell you want half watching this is the way to go. Family watched episode 4, I stayed in the room and half watched and it was entirely entertaining, while I was entirely not engrossed! The ending was dead good in that context too.
So my advice is half watch the thing while doing a jigsaw (or similar) - works a treat!
Indeed - I made the mistake of eatching it all again and making mental note of all the plot points that didnt as yet make sense, with the belief at least some of it would be answered, however unsatisfactorily...
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 05 December, 2021, 03:41:06 PM
Tell you want half watching this is the way to go. Family watched episode 4, I stayed in the room and half watched and it was entirely entertaining, while I was entirely not engrossed! The ending was dead good in that context too.
So my advice is half watch the thing while doing a jigsaw (or similar) - works a treat!
Instead.... Shocking
Can anyone explain what any of it was about - even something as simple as the FLux itself was not explained in any consistent way and the resolution? The best I coould piece togetehr is the Flux was defeated becasue the Flux is Anti-Matter... so eating matter slows it down.... so it takes eating a few thousand spaceships to stop it, but all those planets and stars didnt count as matter?
Is that really what we got? How did this ever make it off the first page?
That;s before we get to the cosmic coincidences of why di was important to the Swarm (but also not as she got left behind), why the Grand Serpent was interested in UNIT (and was also a big part of Vinders past), why TEcteun was also in charge of the Division which consisted of an easily persuaded Ood....
It's just bogglingly bad! Didnt ANYONE in the production say "this makes no sense, Chris", from Producers to actors?
AS my wife said when the Doctor wwas gving some none explanation -= "If you have to explain it, it's shit"
That was like Chibnell brainstormed as many interesting things he could think of then tried to stuff them all into a turdugin and then forgot to let us know why we should care. Even the episodes I enjoyed, were despite the flux plot rather than because. (though I did thoroughly enjoy all of the silly comedy stuff, but like, I still don't know - nor care - who swarm or azure are.)
I didn't bother to watch it this week, after the crappy episode last week.
They might as well just cancel this series now, it's run its course.
I love Doctor Who. I think Jodie is/was incredible in the role... but I have no idea what was going on in that final episode. What a mess.
That was...pretty terrible.
I liked the splitting of the Doctor into three. That would have made a decent frame for the whole arc IMO, with the Doctor working in three or more timelines simultaneously. I mean, it's been done in the past I'm sure, but it might have worked here and could have been a vehicle for explaining some of the nonsense going on.
As far as we could tell the Flux hasn't been reversed, as such, just... consumed by the Passenger, so... all the universe except Earth remains destroyed? Is that right?
And no origin story that I could tell for Swarm...or that stupid planet that somehow controls Time...or that Time appears to be an entity and a bit of an asshole at that. Any one of those could have been the basis for an arc but to just lob them into the blender here...sheesh.
That said, Liverpudlian tunnel gent would and should have made a fine standalone episode. Was Bel's little Tamagochi thing her actual baby communicating with her? If so, love that.
Overall, what a bunch of shite.
Although on the plus side, it was nice to hear a Belfast accent in the future.
all of the above!
The frustrating part is that there is potenitally a coherent story in there somewhere
The story continually progressed in a way that made no sense based on what was established up to that point.
If yoThe resolution the Sontarans stumble upon is one that hangs on two vague references to a "final flux event/waves" about halfway into both ep 5 and 6.
If they had established explicitly that the Doctor had stopped the Flux using Vortex energy in part 1 (we are told it did nothing at that point), then you get some drama. Tecteun suggests that it DID slow the Flux down, but with no more detail to allow the viewer to understand what is happening or planned to happen with teh FLux at that point). They needed to establish that a second event would need to be created from scratch (not a "final wave" which suggested it was just the flux that was already there rolling onwards. Then the Sontarans plan to choke it off while it was tiny "might" make sense. But none of that is established except if you take a few vague references and devise your own narrative. This isnt about being spoon fed (becaue God knows, Chibnall does enough of that), its about etablishing the dramatic stakes so that the viewer can understand the action and its consequences
Its just indicative of his writing style
End of Episode 3:
Tecteun: "Don't try and find Division"
End of Episode 4:
"We're bringing you back to Division"
PJ nailed it - Chibnall does come up with some excellent ideas, he just needs someone with a firm hand to tell him to calm the fuck down, pick one and refine it, rather than spaffing multiple poorly-developed plot strands everywhere.
Thought the last episode was a confusing, disjointed and unsatisfying mess. At last by stashing that watch, Whittaker's final specials won't be just more division guff.
Quote from: Richard on 05 December, 2021, 11:50:51 PM
I didn't bother to watch it this week, after the crappy episode last week.
They might as well just cancel this series now, it's run its course.
"Hello, BBC? Yeah, can you cancel Doctor Who? A bloke on the internet says he can't be bothered watching anymore."
Quote from: Dandontdare on 06 December, 2021, 07:36:28 PM
PJ nailed it - Chibnall does come up with some excellent ideas, he just needs someone with a firm hand to tell him to calm the fuck down, pick one and refine it, rather than spaffing multiple poorly-developed plot strands everywhere.
Doctor Who, like a lot of modern TV, remains in desperate need of a script editor with real power. Not an all-powerful showrunner, but someone who can do "no, do it again" or someone authorised to take these Billy Half a Scripts and have them make sense. RTD's run had similar problems, as did Moffat's, but this was such a mess that for all its moments and characters it just felt so nothingy. I shouldn't be here, at the end of the sixth episode, not having given a shit about any of that series. Mind you, we're at the end of JW's run and her Doctor is barely beyond a cypher. What a colossal waste.
Still, episode 4 was pretty good, I guess.
Thinking about it, doesn't The Doctor commit genocide by placing the Sontarans in the way of The Flux? Perhaps that's her thing: the murder Doctor. Not the first time during this run she's racked up the body count in a way that's quite eyebrow raising.
Quote from: GordonR on 06 December, 2021, 08:32:39 PM
Quote from: Richard on 05 December, 2021, 11:50:51 PM
I didn't bother to watch it this week, after the crappy episode last week.
They might as well just cancel this series now, it's run its course.
"Hello, BBC? Yeah, can you cancel Doctor Who? A bloke on the internet says he can't be bothered watching anymore."
Imagine having the audacity to voice my opinion on the internet! I'll just throw my iPhone in the bin.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 06 December, 2021, 09:11:49 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 06 December, 2021, 07:36:28 PM
PJ nailed it - Chibnall does come up with some excellent ideas, he just needs someone with a firm hand to tell him to calm the fuck down, pick one and refine it, rather than spaffing multiple poorly-developed plot strands everywhere.
Doctor Who, like a lot of modern TV, remains in desperate need of a script editor with real power. Not an all-powerful showrunner, but someone who can do "no, do it again" or someone authorised to take these Billy Half a Scripts and have them make sense. RTD's run had similar problems, as did Moffat's, but this was such a mess that for all its moments and characters it just felt so nothingy. I shouldn't be here, at the end of the sixth episode, not having given a shit about any of that series. Mind you, we're at the end of JW's run and her Doctor is barely beyond a cypher. What a colossal waste.
We should also consider the possibility that Chibnall didn't enjoy the time or freedom given to his predecessors, or that the COVID situation squeezed script development into an untenable window. However, if that was the case, he should be writing on the small scale, not attempting canon-redefining arcs, so either way, he done bad.
He has no excuse. COVID doesn't mean writing needs to turn to shit and be incomprehensible. COVID isn't the reason we still have little idea what this Doctor stands for, besides being a bit more murdery than I imagine any long-term fan is comfortable with.
Some elements of what he did were interesting. I'm all-in on the gender switch. JW could have been great (and tried her best). A shift in emphasis towards some educational settings was good. The eradication of Moffat's obsession with women as puzzles was desperately overdue. But that last series was—with the exception of the episode Chibnall didn't write alone—ranged from bloody awful to barely OK.
I'm going to miss Whittaker and deeply miss Segun Akinola. (I can't imagine RTD will be able to resist returning to Murray Gold-style OTT bombast with the theme tune and dialogue-drowning incidental music.) But I'm not going to miss Chibnall at all. I just hope RTD doesn't say his run was brilliant and commission him to write a load of whatever's coming next.
I think a showrunner can work - if you have a writer's room. Things like Breaking Bad or the Sopranos worked because they had many writers working on various episodes. Those writers would then feed back on everyone else's scripts with the showrunner steering the direction of the show.
What we had on Who these past seasons was Chibnall writing the majority of the episodes with what feels like nobody there to tell him what was a good or bad idea.
Quote from: Richard on 06 December, 2021, 11:23:30 PM
Quote from: GordonR on 06 December, 2021, 08:32:39 PM
Quote from: Richard on 05 December, 2021, 11:50:51 PM
I didn't bother to watch it this week, after the crappy episode last week.
They might as well just cancel this series now, it's run its course.
"Hello, BBC? Yeah, can you cancel Doctor Who? A bloke on the internet says he can't be bothered watching anymore."
Imagine having the audacity to voice my opinion on the internet! I'll just throw my iPhone in the bin.
No. You said you couldn't be bothered watching anymore, and they should cancel the show. Does that really seem like a reasonable thing to say?
I mean, I thought that finale was utter gibberish - and this is an opinion i can give because I actually watched it - but it wouldn't occur to me to say other people still enjoying it should be denied their enjoyment.
And the BBC clearly don't think its run its course, since they're giving it a whole new incoming lease of life with the return of RTD.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 07 December, 2021, 09:30:26 AM
I think a showrunner can work - if you have a writer's room. Things like Breaking Bad or the Sopranos worked because they had many writers working on various episodes. Those writers would then feed back on everyone else's scripts with the showrunner steering the direction of the show.
What we had on Who these past seasons was Chibnall writing the majority of the episodes with what feels like nobody there to tell him what was a good or bad idea.
I believe union rules hobble the idea of a US-model writers room in UK TV. Which is why no-one's really yet managed to do it.
Although isn't that more or less how children's TV works? I recall Paul Rose talking about that kind of thing in the past.
Regardless, there's not really anything stopping shows from reworking the structure of production and infusing teams with editors that have more power. (This isn't just a problem with British TV, of course; it happens elsewhere. But it's been an element of Doctor Who since the show returned.)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 06 December, 2021, 10:34:08 PM
Thinking about it, doesn't The Doctor commit genocide by placing the Sontarans in the way of The Flux? Perhaps that's her thing: the murder Doctor. Not the first time during this run she's racked up the body count in a way that's quite eyebrow raising.
The Doctor's been at that sort of thing since the 60s.
The First Doctor wipes out an army of 5,000 Daleks in
The Dalek's Master Plan. The Second sends a fleet of Ice Warriors into the Sun, actively instigates a civil war on Skaro, wipes out a colony of Macra, and kills umpteen Cybermen over his run. The Tenth is complicit in causing the Pompeii disaster and kills upwards of 7,000 Cybermen in
The Age of Steel alone. The Third obliterates a colony of 3000+ Sea Devils, Twelve goes in for yet more Dalek/Cyberman genocide, and likewise Six... And this is all before you get to the War Doctor!
Watched all six in a row yesterday afternoon/evening. Enjoyed it, mostly - possibly because I always approach Who as a programme primarily for children and so don't expect too much of it because it will always fall between two stools. I thought it was fun and enjoyed Bishop more than whatsisname (Walsh?) last season. I think JW is a rather good Doctor (apart from the fairly annoying teen-style gurning, which I found strangely annoying), and a significant step up from that Scottish dude - who I felt was a bit naff. Overall, yeah, good stuff.
Not to undermine your enjoyment at all, but I've moved from being frustrated to fascinated by those who say its enjoyable to watch.
Theres a whole field of psychology I'm sure that you could study as to how peoples buttons are pressed (or not) by story telling. Is it dependent on other character/personality traits ? Are you more likely to be religious/athiest or left/right or what have you?
For me, if the story makes lttle sense, cotradicts itself and/or doesnt eplain itself, I;m not sure what is actually left to enjoy? The characters? But if they are inhabiting an entirely spurious world, then how can they function as characters you would be interested in? If they are reacting to nonsense, then their reactions are nonsense surely? The effects? I would genuinely ove to be abl to put myself into the mindset that could enjoy something like this in order to understand it better, because I find it baffling and never had anyone explain what "sustenance" they are getting.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 December, 2021, 05:09:47 PM
Watched all six in a row yesterday afternoon/evening. Enjoyed it, mostly - possibly because I always approach Who as a programme primarily for children and so don't expect too much of it because it will always fall between two stools. I thought it was fun and enjoyed Bishop more than whatsisname (Walsh?) last season. I think JW is a rather good Doctor (apart from the fairly annoying teen-style gurning, which I found strangely annoying), and a significant step up from that Scottish dude - who I felt was a bit naff. Overall, yeah, good stuff.
That was utter, utter, utter bollocks.
Whenever a thing needed to do a thing to get them out of trouble, somebody mentioned that the thing did the thing and then the thing did the thing.
So many false cliffhangers. Weeping Angels have taken over the TARDIS?!? Connect these two wires, problem solved. The Doctor has turned into a Weeping Angel?!? Oh, that's just so we can transport you.
And how many Companion faces were we staring at the end? Was it ten (if you count the other two Doctors)? That's ten more than the number of fucks I had to give by the end of this.
Still, hopefully someone enjoyed it.
Quote from: Leigh S on 07 December, 2021, 07:38:30 PM
Not to undermine your enjoyment at all, but I've moved from being frustrated to fascinated by those who say its enjoyable to watch.
For me, as a amateur writist, I find it informative in a "do it like this" or "do not do it like that" kind of way. Certain aspects (ideas, characters, effects, etc.), whether good, bad, or indifferent, spark off little seeds of inspiration for me - during boring programmes I often find that I get to the end without having much recollection of what's been going on because I've been running through alternate possibilities in my head. I guess with Who I enjoy the parts more than the whole, which can be true for just about any series - sometimes I come across an episode that engages me throughout, so that I'm not thinking about the parts so much, and those are the episodes I love the most.
Yeah, thats a legitimate reason, and is sort of the reason I have been watching it, as I am interested in what about it is so "off".
Just realised they never did deal with the 7 Billion Sontarans on the Lupari craft
(and BTW why didnt the Lupari, knowing the Flu ws coming, give Earth and the rest of the Universe for that matter the technology to block it)
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 December, 2021, 08:31:53 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 07 December, 2021, 07:38:30 PM
Not to undermine your enjoyment at all, but I've moved from being frustrated to fascinated by those who say its enjoyable to watch.
For me, as a amateur writist, I find it informative in a "do it like this" or "do not do it like that" kind of way. Certain aspects (ideas, characters, effects, etc.), whether good, bad, or indifferent, spark off little seeds of inspiration for me - during boring programmes I often find that I get to the end without having much recollection of what's been going on because I've been running through alternate possibilities in my head. I guess with Who I enjoy the parts more than the whole, which can be true for just about any series - sometimes I come across an episode that engages me throughout, so that I'm not thinking about the parts so much, and those are the episodes I love the most.
Quote from: Leigh S on 07 December, 2021, 08:54:48 PM(and BTW why didnt the Lupari, knowing the Flu ws coming, give Earth and the rest of the Universe for that matter the technology to block it)
I don't know how many people here are familiar with Ryan George's Pitch Meeting series on YouTube, but I can imagine him ripping into this series with much gusto.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 08 December, 2021, 08:47:09 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 07 December, 2021, 08:54:48 PM(and BTW why didnt the Lupari, knowing the Flu ws coming, give Earth and the rest of the Universe for that matter the technology to block it)
I don't know how many people here are familiar with Ryan George's Pitch Meeting series on YouTube, but I can imagine him ripping into this series with much gusto.
Ripping into Flux, that's tight.
"It's going to be tricky for The Doctor to get out of that situation!"
"Actually, it's going to be super easy—barely an inconvenience!"
"Oh, really?"
^ Suitable for 90%+ of Chibnall Doctor Who cliffhangers.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 08 December, 2021, 09:27:56 AM
^ Suitable for 90%+ of Chibnall Doctor Who cliffhangers.
That's hardly unique to Chibnall. Have we forgotten the "OMG! The Doctor's been shot by a Dalek — he's regenerating!" cliffhanger from RTD, resolved by the continuity-mangling and never-revisited revelation that the Doctor can just
choose not to regenerate.
Fair point. It's just how rapidly they were fired past us in Flux.
I would have liked a three-way double-cross between the Sontarans, Daleks, and Cybermen - that way the Doctor could have had a SonDalCybe co-operative solution fall apart at the end so the bad guys engineer their own demise. I find it hard to believe that the Daleks and Cybermen would trust the Sontarans (or each other) and wander into a trap so naively or that the Doctor wouldn't try to foster cooperation even knowing the chances of a triple-cross (which she'd use in a Plan B).
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 08 December, 2021, 10:38:43 AM
I would have liked a three-way double-cross between the Sontarans, Daleks, and Cybermen - that way the Doctor could have had a SonDalCybe co-operative solution fall apart at the end so the bad guys engineer their own demise. I find it hard to believe that the Daleks and Cybermen would trust the Sontarans (or each other) and wander into a trap so naively or that the Doctor wouldn't try to foster cooperation even knowing the chances of a triple-cross (which she'd use in a Plan B).
And if they'd split her into three earlier in the arc, it would have provided the perfect means to do that. Three Doctors, working as one to engineer a rock/paper/scissors defeat of her three biggest enemies.
I say all this with due acknowledgement of the fact that it is *much* easier to re-write a story after you've seen it fail.
The last time the Doctor went full genocide mode it was in the (BTS) flow of showing his devolvement into The Valeyard, only for it never to come to fruition.
Honestly, after the last season, kind of feels like Jodies Doctor IS The Valeyard at this point.
Quote from: wedgeski on 08 December, 2021, 11:20:11 AM
I say all this with due acknowledgement of the fact that it is *much* easier to re-write a story after you've seen it fail.
That's very true, but if I ever have the need to write a Justice Department / Search/Destroy Agency / Indigo Prime crossover, this Flux finale would offer some decent pointers...
I had to Duck Duck Go "the Valeyard" (I'm the worst nerd
ever), and yeah - that's a good story waiting to be told. Might as well have the next regeneration go awry, resulting in two Doctors (each played by a small person?) and a season or two of strife culminating in the reunification of the two aspects (yeah, yeah, I know - worst plotter
ever as well...).
Quote from: wedgeski on 08 December, 2021, 11:20:11 AMI say all this with due acknowledgement of the fact that it is *much* easier to re-write a story after you've seen it fail.
I dunno. I don't write fiction but would agree with my own writing work that there are always improvements you can see with the benefit of hindsight. Still, before I file something, I do tend to make sure everything makes sense. Sometimes, it doesn't quite hang together—and editors tend to catch that, at which point I rewrite something to make it work.
There's no logic in Flux. Stuff just happens because it happens. When you get to the point of "well, it doesn't matter because timey wimey" or "it's just a kid's show" or "it's Doctor Who so *hand wave*", which it appears Chibnall did, you've already lost.
Mad as hat full of squirrels only with less logic.
That's very true and I see Chibnall as a direct consequence of the "don't criticise the plot, feel the emotions" version of Who that RTD perfected. The big problem is that Chibnall is simultaneously unable to tell a coherent story, or do anything otehr than mimick things he thinks the show should do "guns bad", so lacking in his own style that he's turned the show into a parody of itself worse than any of it's critics could conjure up.
The "no more regenerations, no more life - masters after you" line is straight up blaned down rip of "He will knock four times" - heck the whole thing is like a apraody of Stolen Earth(?) with 3 Doctors and loads of companions.
Even the Corner Shop was a call back to Tennant wanting to own a shop?
"The Memory Cheats" may be true at times (Galaxy 4, Dalek Invasion of Earth), but its the last resort whoen you cant defend the show on its current merits - whataboutery, essentially?
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 December, 2021, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 08 December, 2021, 09:27:56 AM
^ Suitable for 90%+ of Chibnall Doctor Who cliffhangers.
That's hardly unique to Chibnall. Have we forgotten the "OMG! The Doctor's been shot by a Dalek — he's regenerating!" cliffhanger from RTD, resolved by the continuity-mangling and never-revisited revelation that the Doctor can just choose not to regenerate.
I recall Chibnall's sense of logic was summed up way back, with that episode that featured spiders as foes. The Doctor had a go at someone with a gun, but the end result was that the spiders, rather than being humanely killed, would instead starve to death, after having spent a lot of time eating each other.
And this week "guns bad" genocided the Cybermen, Daleks and Sontarans (did the Lupari ships survive? in which case there are still 7 Billion Sontarans left I suppose.
Oh and they stranded Grand Serpent on an asteroid - classy!
Nice of Chibbers to explain it all - its a bit like what we hope for from Boris Johnson with the Christmas Party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc28I-BIs7w&t=94s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc28I-BIs7w&t=94s)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 08 December, 2021, 05:28:07 PM
I recall Chibnall's sense of logic was summed up way back, with that episode that featured spiders as foes. The Doctor had a go at someone with a gun, but the end result was that the spiders, rather than being humanely killed, would instead starve to death, after having spent a lot of time eating each other.
I keep on going back to that as well. The whole episode is Prime Chibnall, i.e. stupid as hell (a Trump straw man stand-in opens his new global showpiece luxury hotel.....in Sheffield) and his Doctor gets to be all morally superior while very clearly doing something completely stupid.
If she cared about the spiders so much, couldn't she have used the Tardis to transport them to, like, a planet overrun with giant flies? I mean, how hard would it have been to fix that resolution with one semi-amusing line?
Quote from: GordonR on 08 December, 2021, 08:08:05 PM
I keep on going back to that as well. The whole episode is Prime Chibnall, i.e. stupid as hell
Plus, as I said at the time, if you're handed the keys to (arguably) the BBC's single largest bit of IP and by the fourth episode of your first series you're serving up "Giant spiders because something-something-toxic-waste" then you clearly don't give a shit about any of it.
I can kinda-sorta-maybe understand lazy filler if you've done four series of something, but if you can't get halfway through your
first (short) series without falling back on this...? Jeez. I just don't know how anyone thought you were up to the job.
In contrast I watched the first episode of SUPERMAN AND LOIS where we also have a much loved character whose backstory is widely known but instead of confusing the heck out of casual viewers by completely rewriting that backstory, they chose to move forward by putting the characters in a new (for most casual viewers anyway) situation that brings them new challenges that can't be fixed by crossing two wires. And do it with heart too (rather than running and shouting). I hope the rest of the series carries on in that vein.
This last few series of DOCTOR WHO is now, for me, pretty much what I feel like when I accidentally switch on Radio One. It's just a cacophony. Not just the music but the presenters and news. Everything just seems loud and shouty and focused on the wrong things.
What would the Radio 2 equivalent of Doctor Who be? I probably need to switch to that.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 09 December, 2021, 11:44:12 AMWhat would the Radio 2 equivalent of Doctor Who be?
Big Finish? Although I've never listened to those, so have no idea how good (or not) they are.
I gave up on Radio 2 years ago...
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 December, 2021, 11:51:11 AM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 09 December, 2021, 11:44:12 AMWhat would the Radio 2 equivalent of Doctor Who be?
Big Finish? Although I've never listened to those, so have no idea how good (or not) they are.
Some of them are very, very good indeed. I actually prefer them to the last few years of TV Who (and I don't just mean the Chibnall years)
I was flu(mmo)xed on first viewing, but I binge-watched the whole thing again this week, and it made a lot more sense. There's a shedload of plot weaknesses - things that don't really add up, and I honestly can't be arsed to enumerate them, but I'm not sure if it's significantly worse than that of the average season finale of any NuWho series to date.
Where The Flux does compare unfavourably to previous NuWho (especially the RTD era) is exploring the emotional consequences of plot events. Eg Karvinsta is now the last of his species - oooh don't we have someone to hand who can empathise with that? Oh, my mistake, apparently not. The bulk of the universe has been destroyed- that's a got to be a bit of a downer? Apparently not. The doctor just had to commit genocide of the three races to save the universe. That must be a hard pill to swallow? After all, the Doctor would surely balk against such "end justifies the means" tactics, that's presumably why she left The Division. No, it's all good - hey, Dan, fancy joining us for another jolly adventure? My step mum who brought me up, and shaped me to be the person I am, even though I don't remember it, and she's clearly gone a bit twisted and evil, just got murdered in front of me. How do I process that?
Ultimately if these things don't appear to affect the story characters in any way, then it's not going to emotionally resonate with the average viewer.
And I've got a sinking feeling that in the New Year's Day episode, none of the fallout of The Flux (see above post) will be even acknowledged, and we'll just have some light-hearted festive shenanigans with Aisling Bea and a bunch of daleks who shouldn't exist any more. Hope I'm wrong, though
To end on a more positive note, there were some things I enjoyed about the Flux. The performances of the guest starts was generally of a high caliber. The general look of it, from CGI to set design to costumes was great. In places it gave me "70s Doctor Who"-feels much more than NuWho had before - particularly the Temple of Atrapos. That and the whole "not understanding what's going on" deal made me feel like I was 6 years again!
But to end my positive note on a negative note (thereby reverting to form), I hated with a seething passion that whole sorry business of Bel's tamagotchi interface to her unborn baby. Not the idea, but the execution of it, with those bloody animated heart emoticons. That's the most dystopian I've ever seen Doctor Who get.
How many times has the entire race of daleks been wiped out now?
Quote from: Proudhuff on 11 December, 2021, 11:28:17 AM
How many times has the entire race of daleks been wiped out now?
Not to worry, because a few minutes after we saw them totally wiped out for the third or fourth time in TV continuity, we see them back again in the New Year episode trailer.
That one (Eve of the Daleks) was actually pretty good. I mean no way you dared to look at the 'logical it all but it was funny Aisling Bea was superb and overall pretty well done.
Yeah, an interesting idea let down by wonky execution - at least having an interesting idea put it ahead of most Chibnall efforts.
Didnt they go out of their way to say Nick would always die at the 4/5 minute mark, so once they had less than that time left he would be perma-dead, then promptly ignored that (interesting) idea?
The reset keeps putting them back to the same place but with less time?
It's frustating as it was only 8 minutes that needed to be kept in line, and they didnt seem able to do that.
I thought that was the best of the recent bunch.
At least I (almost) understood it. And nice to see a returning classic monster in the post credits clip
i enjoyed that groundhog day ep. aisling Bea rather proves my on going thinking that john bishop is startlingly bad as an actor. i'd be curious to find out if Bea ad-libbed some of her lines, which were pretty much all funny.
there was a few wtf? moments, but buried under a great deal of charm so i don't care too much about them.
That was great FUN. And I deliberately emphasize the word fun.
Great, simple premise, great performances (with one notable exception). Plus surely the repeated running down corridors is an homage to (and a bit of meta text on) Classic Who
Oh and my understanding was that Nick broke the 2355 rule when he ducked and survived that loop... So it made sense to me.
Solid concept. Overly talky Daleks. Abysmal characterisation. But still one of the better Chibnall efforts, and I quite liked a lot of it.
Undoubtably Chibnall's best special, but the points he gets for an interesting idea are all but deducted by the handling.
We get scenes that are longer than the supposed loop lasts. Sarah's mom keeps calling after the time has gone past 4 minutes to - in fact, in the first pass, she tells her mom off for calling at 23:56 then looks at her phone and it shows 23:51 - basic errors.
The Nick dying for sure doesn't add up. If it was based on when you died in the first loop, there was no fixing it. If it was dying in last loop, then all you need to do is survive the first minute of each loop, independently of how you did the last time - Sarah and Nick both die within that time in the 4 minute loop, so by this logic should be dead thereafter...
The 1 minute loop has scenes longer than a minute and cuts out how many minutes it would take to get to the 5th floor ( or 6th if I didn't mishear Nick's stuff being on the 2nd floor and Jeff's stuff being 4 floors above Nick's....
This may sound nitpicky, but if you are basing your story on very specific measurable times and locations, then it's beholden on any decent writer to follow that strictly. The fact it is dumped here says all that needs saying about why Chibnall is never going to work for me.
But at last no teleporting, body snatching, resurrecting from being cut into three parts Daleks, so....
I'm ok with that. It's just movie making convention. If you put a stopwatch on ANY film you'll see that "Oh my god, it's so going to explode in thirty seconds!" is actually about 5 minutes e.g the end of Star Wars.
I tihnk that is fair enough in a story where teh timer is incidental - when your whole narrative is based on a ticking clock that reduces how much time you have each pass, establish teh layout of the building and the resoures and time available to you, then having the final pass be "go to the 5th (maybe 6th) floor of a building and collect heavy drums in a trolley, then bring them down to the basement and place them strtegically concealed by some fireworks, then vacate the building before it falls down on everyone... in one minute"
The timer that isnt really "30 seconds" is a bit of a cheat, but is easy to ignore. The "my whole plot is based on a timer" really needs a writer to commit to the conceit, the logic and the logistics.
If they dont have 1 minute but as much time as the plot requires, then whats the point of any of it? When I think they'd struggle to do all that in 10 minutes, let alone a few seconds more for dramatic effect, then it really is lampshading a writer who does not give a shit about the very thing he chose (not me!) to write about in the first place
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 02 January, 2022, 07:32:37 PM
I'm ok with that. It's just movie making convention. If you put a stopwatch on ANY film you'll see that "Oh my god, it's so going to explode in thirty seconds!" is actually about 5 minutes e.g the end of Star Wars.
'Kin hell. That Next Time though...
I thought Eve of the Daleks, was ok - a welcome palate cleanser after the lumpeness of Flux. Once the time loop conceit had been established, I got rather excited that this would be an unexpected - and most welcome - classic.
I don't think it quite nailed the landing though. That kind of plot needs a meticulousness in its execution, as people will rewatch it to compare each iteration of the loop. Of course, meticulous plotting is not really Chib's bag is it? He obviously abandoned the idea of when people die in each iteration being somehow significant, but forgot (or couldn't be arsed) to scroll up in his Word document and delete the initial set-up. Slapdash.
I didn't see the whole Yazz being keen on the Doctor thing coming though. Not that that could develop much though - the 13th doctor is perhaps the most emotionally evasive we've ever had, which is ironic (in a good way) as she's the first female doctor, and it's typically a quality seen in blokes. She's no more likely to talk about her inner feelings than a dad in the 1970s - instead using the gambit of standing there awkwardly until the other party changes the topic of conversation.
Enjoyed it more than most Chibnall Who... but, yeah, when you've established a conceit of reducing time available on every iteration and you're down to two minutes, I was just... "Why are you STANDING AROUND CHATTING, YOU STUPID DUMBSHIT GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKERS?!"
If nothing else, this is yet more evidence the series needs a solid script editor. This at least didn't feel 'first draft', but it did feel very 'second draft'. It wouldn't have taken a lot to tighten it up, but either Doctor Who doesn't have someone capable of doing that (in terms of ability or budget), or Chibnall doesn't let them. Either way, the flubs here look embarrassing when compared to Danger Mouse, let alone something like The Expanse.
As for Yaz luvs Doctor... The entire 'romance with the Doctor' thing has legs if played right (not least in the Doctor looking human but not being human). But dumping that kind of thing less than two hours from the end of this incarnation's run seems unnecessary and cruel. Moreover, it seems entirely unearned. Rose and Tennant made some kind of sense. But it's hard to know what Yaz sees in this Doctor, given that neither character has evolved to be much more than a cypher during this run.
What is this Doctor's motivation? What does she believe in? What are her key characteristics, beyond generic ones (smart; quippy)? Or perhaps Yaz is dead keen on people who say "fam" a lot and are heavily into genocide and needless, cruel deaths.
That's not to say JW's entire run was a bust. It's had its moments. The show often looks really good now. And Segun Akinola will, for me, be deeply missed when RTD inevitably goes for a take on the theme heavy on bombast and light on horror and mystery. But, man, it just feels like such a waste of potential, and I worry that it will be seen by too many people as 'proof' that a female Doctor can't cut it, when the problem absolutely wasn't JW but the material (and, frequently, direction) provided for her.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 January, 2022, 11:22:29 PM
Enjoyed it more than most Chibnall Who... but, yeah, when you've established a conceit of reducing time available on every iteration and you're down to two minutes, I was just... "Why are you STANDING AROUND CHATTING, YOU STUPID DUMBSHIT GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKERS?!"
This man shouts the truth. I mean, I'd be fine with the fact they'd never be able get around that huge building in the time available if it just looked as though they were making the fucking effort.
(See also, Star Trek: Discovery for the same annoying behaviour.)
Still, this has to have been rare example of an actual
idea, something we've not seen in the show for a while, and I quite enjoyed it.
Regards,
Robin
Well, that was poor.
Daleks, scourge of the universe, destroyers of worlds, armed with new Gatling guns - and it takes a sustained barrage for them to get through a bog-standard aluminium roller shutter? Just so our trapped heroes have enough time to chat? Poor, poor, poor.
Doctor who wants a cup of tea and a goss while the world falls apart around us, more like.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 January, 2022, 11:22:29 PM
"Why are you STANDING AROUND CHATTING, YOU STUPID DUMBSHIT GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKERS?!"
I would like this printed on a t-shirt, or tattooed on my face.