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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1512478 times)

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8910 on: 10 September, 2015, 02:16:10 PM »
Okay.
.
1: The tribe knows the "Volcano God" exists because there's a huge great volcano near the village in which the god lives. We know the "government" exists because there's a huge great palace in the middle of London in which it lives.
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2. The Volcanic Priests interpret the rules and wishes of the "Volcano God" and tell the people of the tribe what it needs and requires. The Members of Parliament interpret the rules and wishes of "government" and tell is what it needs and requires.
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3. The "Volcano God" wants the people of the tribe to tip up a portion of their wealth to support the Volcanic Priests (because they generate no income of their own) to keep them in Vimto and crisps and because they need something more impressive than a mud hut in which to meet the priests of the Sea God. The "government" wants us to tip up a portion of our wealth to support the MPs (because they generate no income of their own) to keep them in Champagne and caviar and because they need something more impressive than a London semi in which to meet the MPs of France.
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4. The Volcanic Priests are honest in that they do not claim to be the "Volcano God" themselves; they claim to represent its power. It's fairly hard to disprove this unless one can email the "Volcano God" to ask, 'hey, did you give those dudes in the long robes who paint their faces red and plait black cotton wool in their hair your divine authority over me?' The MPs are dishonest in that they claim to be the "government" themselves and to represent your authority. This is easy to disprove as all I have to ask you is, 'hey, did you give those dudes at Westminster authorities you don't possess over me?'
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I appreciate that you don't like me comparing your precious "government" to the villagers' precious "Volcano God" but they are the same thing - illusions based entirely on faith. The villagers can pray all they want to the "Volcano God" but it, and its priests, will act as they choose anyway. We can pray (vote, petition, lobby) all we want to "government" but it, and its MPs, will act as they choose anyway. Remember when 1,000,000 people prayed to the MPs to stop "government" declaring war but war came anyway? That's exactly the same as the villagers praying to the "Volcano God" to stop erupting.
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But we are in a better situation than the villagers. If they stop praying to the "Volcano God" that won't stop the top coming off the mountain from time to time; but if we stop praying to "government" we can prevent a great deal of human destruction.
~~~^~~~~~~~


Rest in peace, Dave.

JPMaybe

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8911 on: 10 September, 2015, 02:57:32 PM »
Are you unwilling or actually unable to recognise any nuance whatsoever in your opponent's viewpoint?  Genuine question. 
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Steven Denton

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8912 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:13:01 PM »
They aren't.

your entire wall of text is irrelevant.

volcano gods have zero effect.

governments have tangible effect.

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8913 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:28:43 PM »
The volcano will not change one iota irrespective prayers, but a government must make decisions that will prevent it being voted out.


Steven Denton

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8914 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:33:44 PM »
what you are referring to in your own verbose way is a religious state. which we don't have but some country's do. Then attempting to conflate the idea of a 'church' based government with the deity itself then you are then assuming that everyone is excepting that assumption and equating the straw man deity with the government.

They key flaw here is that your volcano god is not a mechanism of rule it's at best a theology. the closest analogy in our system would be the volcano god is democracy and the volcano church is the government.

But all that's saying is aren't we lucky to have a democracy over a volcano god based theocracy.
« Last Edit: 10 September, 2015, 03:35:39 PM by Steven Denton »

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8915 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:35:08 PM »
But we're not talking about effect, we're talking about belief. The priests of the "Volcano God" have an effect just as the MPs of "government" have an effect. Neither the "Volcano God" nor the "government" can have any effect whatsoever because neither one exists, even if belief in them does.
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No, JPM. I'm a blunt instrument.
~~~^~~~~~~~


Rest in peace, Dave.

Steven Denton

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8916 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:36:41 PM »
You know that MP's are the government don't you? Civil servants are the cogs of government.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8917 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »
No, the MPs are people claiming authorities they do not possess and calling it "government."
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Rest in peace, Dave.

M.I.K.

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8918 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:55:05 PM »
You're like one of those folk who say they don't believe in UFOs.

Just because they're not aliens, doesn't mean they're not there.

Semantics, in't it?

Steven Denton

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8919 on: 10 September, 2015, 03:56:12 PM »
you could be referring to this: 'A government is the system by which a state or community is controlled.' if you read that and think it actually says 'Illusory religion of control used by the elite to subjugate the sheeple' you probably need new glasses.

I was referring to this: 'the word government is also used more narrowly to refer to the collective group of people that exercises executive authority in a state.'




The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8920 on: 10 September, 2015, 04:13:10 PM »
 'the word government is also used more narrowly to refer to the collective group of people that exercises executive authority in a state.' But where do they get the authority? You and I do not have the authority to demand money from other people under threat of retaliation, so how do we pass on that authority to this 'collective group of people'? We cannot, so they must make it up and call it "government." Anything made up does not exist.
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Rest in peace, Dave.

locustsofdeath!

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8921 on: 10 September, 2015, 04:20:49 PM »
If I worshipped the Volcano God I'd pray to Him to command His cult to throw this thread in the lava.

Steven Denton

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8922 on: 10 September, 2015, 04:31:37 PM »
'the word government is also used more narrowly to refer to the collective group of people that exercises executive authority in a state.' But where do they get the authority? You and I do not have the authority to demand money from other people under threat of retaliation, so how do we pass on that authority to this 'collective group of people'? We cannot, so they must make it up and call it "government." Anything made up does not exist.

We do, It's called the small claims court.

your 'logic' path seems to be that you and I do not have collective power, individually, to pass on so collective power cannot be real.

But we have also circled back to one of your many 'creationist' staples, which build the foundation of your philosophy. 


The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8923 on: 10 September, 2015, 04:45:08 PM »
Of course we have collective authority (and power). Any authorities we individually possess (the right to self-defence, the right to eat and drink, the right to speak and think as we please, as examples) can be passed on and delegated to  others. Any authorities we do not individually possess (the right to assault our neighbours, the right to deny other people food and drink, the right to limit another person's speech or thought, as examples) cannot be passed on or delegated to others.
~~~^~~~~~~~


Rest in peace, Dave.

Hawkmumbler

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #8924 on: 10 September, 2015, 04:47:54 PM »
If I worshipped the Volcano God I'd pray to Him to command His cult to throw this thread in the lava.
A) Where do I sign up.
B) Do you have complementary mugs?