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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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IAMTHESYSTEM

Well, John Gray gives his grim view of the current European crisis. Is the globalist order over and misguided in its belief in a better tomorrow? Not for the faint-hearted or dogmatists.

https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/geopolitics/2022/03/the-new-age-of-disorder?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1646311908
"You may live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension."

http://artriad.deviantart.com/
― Nikola Tesla

IndigoPrime

That's a sobering view. I'm not sure I align with all of it, but there are broad strokes within that are very much true. Perhaps the biggest is that underlying complacency at the heart of relatively liberal people who assume the direction of travel is always one way. But as we've learned in recent years, from everything from Brexit to what's happen right now, nationalism, illiberalism and outright shithousery remains strong – and it remains a compelling draw for a sizeable chunk of the masses.

The Legendary Shark


Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2022, 02:48:46 PM
That's a sobering view. I'm not sure I align with all of it, but there are broad strokes within that are very much true. Perhaps the biggest is that underlying complacency at the heart of relatively liberal people who assume the direction of travel is always one way. But as we've learned in recent years, from everything from Brexit to what's happen right now, nationalism, illiberalism and outright shithousery remains strong – and it remains a compelling draw for a sizeable chunk of the masses.

Hear, hear.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Hawkmumbler

It's really telling when even Japan is willing to step up and enforce trade and economic sanctions, historically (since the end of t'war, of course) the most "neutral" of economic superpowers putting their neck out for once.

Truly what we're seeing are changing times unfolding at a rapid pace, and at its heart a bunch of innocent folks. Civilians just wanting to go about their life, and soldiers who'd (mostly) rather be home with their families. Putin has nothing to gain here beyond making the rest of the world think for even a second he doesn't have a micro-penis. Sad stuff.

IndigoPrime

Heck, even Sweden and Switzerland are going: actually, we're not that neutral. And, again, China abstaining is a big deal. It usually votes alongside Russia. Not now.

CalHab


milstar

#18996
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2022, 01:30:14 PM
A dictator on our doorstep has invaded a European country, has designs on bringing back into being the Russian Empire at its greatest extent, and has threatened at least two EU nations with massive repercussions if they don't do what Russia wants regarding "security guarantees".

At what point do we decide this isn't a big problem? When Ukraine is partitioned? When Ukraine is subject to a genocide and full Russian takeover? When Russia follows its actions up by invading Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? When there are inclusions into Polish and Finnish territory Putin believe are Russian? At what point do we draw a line?

Right now, the world is almost united. Four other countries]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/3/unga-resolution-against-ukraine-invasion-full-text]Four other countries appear to fully back Russia right now. Even China is on the fence. If we do nothing, Europe will could be destabilised for decades. Perhaps it will be anyway, but going down without any kind of fight seems to be a curious way to respond.

Indigo, you are now fairly stretching it up. All I hear is Putin = Hitler, wants to conquer half of the globe, but 1)Cold War ended 30 years ago and 2)Putin isn't mad as Hitler, as Putin knows what he is doing and this was set months, even years ago. I mean, I am tired of paranoid boogey tales of evil Russkies.
What happens in Ukraine is solely localized conflict and is definitely not on our doorstep. Unless our doorstep extends toward Eastern Europe. I thought times of the empire are long over. Russians have been at war with Chechens, did they invade us then? Abkhazia, South Ossetia?
To understand this conflict, a one needs to dig in a bit into Eastern European history, starting from 1945 (for example, Crimea has been in the hands of Russians, until it was handed over to Ukrainians over some weird politics). Which always seemed the problem of us westerners, our own arrogancy, inability that is not about us anymore. Knee jerk reaction on going to war with Russia would be horrible idea. And that would be WW3 (technically speaking, we are already living in ww3). One has to remember how ww1 started.
Ofcourse, I don't denounce the simple fact that both sides (Russians and Ukrainians) - to put it euphemistically, showed less than honourable sides in the conflict. Since 2014,that is. And our media has quite a habit of lying, being in the service of conflicts that typically ended in miserable failures. I am talking on the period from 1990s onwards, not for example ww2 (though I don't think also that conflict over Folklands was of any beneficiary to us, save maybe the adversial relationship with Argentinians *sarcasm*). So, no, this is why I am neutral. And a heavy pacifist at that. I am not going to serve scum politicians who only think of me when they need my vote.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

IndigoPrime

Putin told Macron earlier that he see Ukraine as his, and a French official earlier said Putin was prepared to "go all the way". Ukraine is, remember, a fully sovereign state. Putin has decided it's his and appears happy to at best commit war crimes and atrocities to achieve the goal of subjugation and/or assimilation; but if not, we could be looking at genocide. As for mad, I don't think so; this is calculated and cold.

Given that Ukraine borders EU countries, it's effectively on our doorstep. This is within our continent. I wasn't talking literally. Putin isn't bombing Brighton. But this is our neighbourhood in the global scheme of things, and it's another attempt to further destabilise Europe. As others have noted, Putin is also on record as stating that he wants more than this. He believes Russia is entitled to get back all that is its 'historical' lands. So that's the point: where does this stop? Perhaps he'll run roughshod over Ukraine and that will be enough. But he's already outlined it won't be and The Balkans are also 'his'—as is Finland. (Still, an invasion of an EU country would be a step beyond and without doubt would escalate things beyond the point of no return.)

Regardless, I honestly find it astonishing anyone would be neutral about a country being invaded like this, but there you go. Will you say the same if Putin is in a few months obliterating Helsinki in a similar manner to the crap he's doing in Ukraine?

Richmond Clements

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 07:07:37 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2022, 01:30:14 PM
A dictator on our doorstep has invaded a European country, has designs on bringing back into being the Russian Empire at its greatest extent, and has threatened at least two EU nations with massive repercussions if they don't do what Russia wants regarding "security guarantees".

At what point do we decide this isn't a big problem? When Ukraine is partitioned? When Ukraine is subject to a genocide and full Russian takeover? When Russia follows its actions up by invading Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? When there are inclusions into Polish and Finnish territory Putin believe are Russian? At what point do we draw a line?

Right now, the world is almost united. Four other countries]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/3/unga-resolution-against-ukraine-invasion-full-text]Four other countries appear to fully back Russia right now. Even China is on the fence. If we do nothing, Europe will could be destabilised for decades. Perhaps it will be anyway, but going down without any kind of fight seems to be a curious way to respond.

Indigo, you are now fairly stretching it up. All I hear is Putin = Hitler, wants to conquer half of the globe, but 1)Cold War ended 30 years ago and 2)Putin isn't mad as Hitler, as Putin knows what he is doing and this was set months, even years ago. I mean, I am tired of paranoid boogey tales of evil Russkies.
What happens in Ukraine is solely localized conflict and is definitely not on our doorstep. Unless our doorstep extends toward Eastern Europe. I thought times of the empire are long over. Russians have been at war with Chechens, did they invade us then? Abkhazia, South Ossetia?
To understand this conflict, a one needs to dig in a bit into Eastern European history, starting from 1945 (for example, Crimea has been in the hands of Russians, until it was handed over to Ukrainians over some weird politics). Which always seemed the problem of us westerners, our own arrogancy, inability that is not about us anymore. Knee jerk reaction on going to war with Russia would be horrible idea. And that would be WW3 (technically speaking, we are already living in ww3). One has to remember how ww1 started.
Ofcourse, I don't denounce the simple fact that both sides (Russians and Ukrainians) - to put it euphemistically, showed less than honourable sides in the conflict. Since 2014,that is. And our media has quite a habit of lying, being in the service of conflicts that typically ended in miserable failures. I am talking on the period from 1990s onwards, not for example ww2 (though I don't think also that conflict over Folklands was of any beneficiary to us, save maybe the adversial relationship with Argentinians *sarcasm*). So, no, this is why I am neutral. And a heavy pacifist at that. I am not going to serve scum politicians who only think of me when they need my vote.

I can only assume you're 15 years older thereabouts. I can see no other explanation for this, frankly, stupid and infantile reading of events.

milstar

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2022, 08:05:30 PM
Putin told Macron earlier that he see Ukraine as his, and a French official earlier said Putin was prepared to "go all the way". Ukraine is, remember, a fully sovereign state. Putin has decided it's his and appears happy to at best commit war crimes and atrocities to achieve the goal of subjugation and/or assimilation; but if not, we could be looking at genocide. As for mad, I don't think so; this is calculated and cold.

Given that Ukraine borders EU countries, it's effectively on our doorstep. This is within our continent. I wasn't talking literally. Putin isn't bombing Brighton. But this is our neighbourhood in the global scheme of things, and it's another attempt to further destabilise Europe. As others have noted, Putin is also on record as stating that he wants more than this. He believes Russia is entitled to get back all that is its 'historical' lands. So that's the point: where does this stop? Perhaps he'll run roughshod over Ukraine and that will be enough. But he's already outlined it won't be and The Balkans are also 'his'—as is Finland. (Still, an invasion of an EU country would be a step beyond and without doubt would escalate things beyond the point of no return.)

Regardless, I honestly find it astonishing anyone would be neutral about a country being invaded like this, but there you go. Will you say the same if Putin is in a few months obliterating Helsinki in a similar manner to the crap he's doing in Ukraine?

Let's not switch the thesis'. Putin said is all he did so far. Putin trolled us with nukes and people instantly bought it. He's calculated and cold, but ain't stupid. You also have to take into account that he doesn't want NATO in his neighbour; plus, what I said about both sides acting less than honourably, ethnic minority in Eastern Ukraine (Dombas, Lugansk) are being theatened and harassed for years. I mean, just look what Azov neo-Nazis did, burning people to frazzle. And it's why Putin went into it, not that he woke up one day and said "I want to conquer half of Europe." Where does it stop? Well, Putin, like we can all agree on, is not mad, he is cold and calculated, and zero stupid. He probably would laugh at idea of conquering all states where Russians live, or were historically Russian. Balkans? The Balkans never literally were Russian. Finland? They are not under Russian boot for 100 years. A move of madman would be to attack Finland, but like I stated already, Putin is not stupid. Or mad.
The way how I literally see this to end: 1)Putin successfully occupies Kyiv and installs vassal government, perhaps something akin to Belarus, a president who is not anti-russian, but is not pro-Russian either; 2)Donbas and Lugansk becoming part of Russia. 3)nothing from the above, NATO gives all guarantees it won't move to the East (as they agressively did for the past 30 years) or 4)someone sucessfully completes wetwork mission on Putin or Putin dies of heart attack, and his successor announces complete withdrawal from Ukraine.
Should we intervene? My personal philosophy is that true heroes are the one who refrain from raising a sword (translated to modern times, someone who refrains from picking a gun). Lately, we raised the sword too many times, even if the cause was justified, it universally ended up in disaster, one way or another. Sadam did not possess a WMD, Lybia is cesspool state, and Balkan...what was, one country committing genocide against another, which was absolutely untrue. But it's important to go to foreign war, waste resources and lives of young people.
There are no more clear-cut good and bad guys. And when Kruschov said that we have bigger problems to solve, I am more interested drunk Boris will keep this sinking ship afloat in post-Brexit period.

And just so that I don't give impression of myself as Putin/Russia shill, although compared to him, Boris has nowhere near (huge) support than Putin, I am going to say that anti-lgbtq rhetorics, arresting sundry and all people, supporting genocidal Chinese regime, and surrounding yourself by oligarchs isn't something that put me on his fan list.

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 03 March, 2022, 10:05:06 PM

I can only assume you're 15 years older thereabouts. I can see no other explanation for this, frankly, stupid and infantile reading of events.

A 15 year old would pick up a rifle and listen brainwashing propaganda machine.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Let's not switch the thesis'.

What is that apostrophe doing there? What do you think a thesis is and what do several of them apparently possess?

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Putin said is all he did so far.
...

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Putin said is all he did so far.

What?

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Putin said is all he did so far.

...

I beg your pardon?

I can't parse this at all. It's a feckin' riddle. I literally cannot understand you Milstar.

Do you know what a Turing test is?
You may quote me on that.

milstar

Quote from: Mister Pops on 04 March, 2022, 12:51:24 AM
Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Let's not switch the thesis'.

What is that apostrophe doing there? What do you think a thesis is and what do several of them apparently possess?

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Putin said is all he did so far.
...

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Putin said is all he did so far.

What?

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Putin said is all he did so far.

...

I beg your pardon?

I can't parse this at all. It's a feckin' riddle. I literally cannot understand you Milstar.

Do you know what a Turing test is?

On which of those three quotes I need to click to bypass captcha?
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

The Legendary Shark


It's all clearly perfectly and, well, clearly written. I understanding much more now than the before, which is dark in Russian but not so much China or Huddersfield, for that mater. Maybe some kind of proofreading might, or not, especially with tangents involved to such an extensively. Reading out, loud, might help to help readability for readers reading who need reading help. Or it might not. Who know's? It's worth it for a try, or even a goal with extra time points in the final countdown when the analysis is ready for analysing with analytical analytics like, what the professionals or even the, careful, writers of postings might write if I had my way all over this.
[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




moly

Putin trolled us on nuclear weapons milstar ? Russian army then shell the largest nuclear power station in Europe get a grip you are an apologist for putin be honest with you self

IndigoPrime

Quote from: milstar on 03 March, 2022, 11:46:11 PMPutin trolled us with nukes and people instantly bought it.
I was talking about genocide, not nuclear warfare, which is what we're well on the way to. Even the corridor announcement is chilling, since in the past we know how that ends up. (Basically, everyone leave your country so it can be taken over easily; those who stay behind all become enemy combatants by default and therefore fair game.) Beyond that, we've already seen Putin poison people overseas (including in the UK), by way of radioactive contaminants, along with committing atrocities with war-crime-level weaponry. Little to nothing is off the board for him.

And perhaps you're right about the end state. But if the end result of this is Putin killing countless thousands, probably committing genocide, and wiping a sovereign nation forever from existence, you're OK with that? You're like "hey, Ukraine brought this on themselves"? As for the NATO aggression, have you ever thought that ex-Soviet client states saw a shot at independence vs subjugation and therefore went for that? (CIS could have been a much smarter set-up, but Russia didn't want independence – it wanted those countries to do what Russia wanted, hence its failure.)