The Political Thread

[Theblazeuk]

Only in Britain do we take the noble things everyone else admires completely and utterly for granted.

[Dandontdare]

I was going tom have another go at explaining why that common law argument is bollocks, but I can't be arsed.

I knowe that the sharky falcon's motives are right but his boneheaded misinterpretation of constitutional law and refusal to be corrected makes any discussion pointless.

[IndigoPrime]

Only in Britain do we take the noble things everyone else admires completely and utterly for granted.

- Fantastic public broadcasting, but people want it gone.
- A world-class health service that costs a fraction of privatised equivalents elsewhere.
- Freedom of movement and settlement in any EU country (and, by extension, typically any EFTA country).
- HUMAN RIGHTS.

Watching the right-wing right now is terrifying. Hell, watching plenty of normal people is terrifying because they have no fucking idea what's happening. "We can't let in the people who caused the financial crash." That's right. But then US banks weren't on my ballot.

And every Cabinet appointment sends a clear message. We even have an equalities minster who voted against gay marriage. FFS x infinity.

[The Legendary Shark]

This is the problem with "authority" and its "laws."
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We can all come up with very logical and sensible reasons why we should pay for this or that. "Authority" enshrines these things in legislation and imposes punishments on anyone who fails to pay.
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It begins in school. Students are praised and rewarded for being where authority tells them to be when authority tells them to be there and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for being anwhere else.
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They receive approval, praise and reward for doing what authority tells them to do and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for doing anything else.
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They receive approval, praise and reward for speaking when and how authority tells them to speak and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for speaking at any other time, in any other way or about any other subject than what authority tells them to speak about, or by failing to speak when authority tells them to speak.
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They receive approval, praise and reward for repeating back whatever ideas the authority declares to be true and important and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for disagreeing, verbally or on a written test, with the opinions of those claiming authority, or for thinking or writing about subjects other than those authority tells them to think or write about.
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They receive approval, praise and reward for immediately telling authority about any problems or personal conflicts they encounter and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for trying to solve these problems on their own.
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They receive approval, praise and reward for complying with whatever rules, however arbitrary, authority decides to impose on them and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for disobeying any such rules. These rules can be about almost anything; what to wear, haircuts, facial expressions, what words to use, what to have on a desk, which direction to face or even how to sit in a chair.
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They receive approval, praise and reward for telling authority when another student has disobeyed the rules and receive disapproval, reproach and punishment for failing to do so.
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The students are taught that there are two classes of people in the world; masters (teachers) and subjects (students), and that the rules of behaviour are drastically different for each class. The masters constantly do things the subjects are told not to do; boss people around, control others through threats, confiscate property, create arbitrary rules and so on and on. This reinforcement of master and subject continues throughout (mandatory) schooling. The end result is a whole class of people who accept the master/subject divide without question and carry that conditioning through to adulthood and beyond. We find it very hard to shake off.
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This is why, when "authority" tells us to do something like pay your TV license, we just do it without question. When somebody like me says "no," all that conditioning kicks in. How many of you feel angry at me? Where does that anger come from?
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We all know that theft and violence are unacceptable but don't bat an eyelid when somebody who says "no" is forcibly arrested or has their property stolen because "authority" is doing it under the guise of any "law" it chooses to write down.
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Yes, there are many good reasons why I should pay for a TV license but not one for forcing me to do so. TV license, Council Tax, parking fine - the charge and ostensible reasons behind it are irrelevant. It's the force I object to - and will do so to my dying day (which won't be very long if some of you get your hands on me! :-)).

[ZenArcade]

  right I've lost the plot here....who th  fuck is Lesbian Seagull??? Z

[Greg M.]

It begins in school.

Been in a classroom lately, have you? I generally stay off this thread (unless a bit drunk) but the whole Pat Mills-y take of wicked fascist teachers crushing hopes, dream and individuality seems rooted in some 1950s reality and is a far cry from the job I actually do.

[IndigoPrime]

This is why, when "authority" tells us to do something like pay your TV license, we just do it without question. When somebody like me says "no," all that conditioning kicks in. How many of you feel angry at me? Where does that anger come from?

I don't feel hostility towards you, but I am frustrated in your argument that comes down to "I should only have to pay for stuff if I feel like it and have specifically agreed to it in some kind of contractual basis," regardless of whether you use the service. Public broadcasting exists to the betterment of everyone. The UK would be a poorer place without the BBC, regardless of its shortcomings. The only way it can exist is through public funding. When that funding disappears, so will the BBC. To use the services because, hey, the BBC didn't spend colossal amounts of money encrypting its content, thereby hugely increasing complexity at every single step from broadcast through to dealing with your telly, is simply hypocritical and dishonest.

It's also very weird how closely your arguments tally with far-right equivalents in the USA. "I shouldn't have to pay taxes for anything!" Well, what about when your house is on fire? Even the voluntary stuff just repositions every public service as a charity at the whim of people who'll pay, which would be the minority and lead to breaking-point cuts across the board.

Anyway, [Jim's picture].

[Steven Denton]

ummmm, I don't think people are angry at you for challenging their conditioned perceptions of authority. from what I have seen as a long term but largely passive observer; I Think people are trying to point out that you are wrong about an awful lot of things and that you suffer from run away conformation bias. picking up on fragments and misinterpreting them to your own ends. discarding anything that doesn't re-enforce your point of view it's entirely pointless conversing with you on almost any subject because of how fundamentally flawed every thing you say is and how utterly entrenched every idea has become in your mind.

This thread is notionally for political discussion but you have reseeded so far into your own mind, into a world of your own construction that I'm not sure how many people would recognise our social landscape in yours.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what exactly it is you are hoping to achieve by dominating this thread?

[The Legendary Shark]

Do I have to start going on about how privately created, interest bearing money needs to be eradicated so these authoritarian demands for payment will become unnecessary... again?

[ZenArcade]

Aye Shark, give the rest of the posters a chance. Z

[Steven Denton]

No you need to accept that that statement is meaningless.

[The Legendary Shark]

Okay, okay. Point taken. It's hard to say the right thing when everyone thinks you're wrong and I honestly don't want to upset people, so I'll bug out of here for a while and just read. No hard feelings, okay?
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One last thing before I take a rest; irony of ironies, I've just won in a vote!

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Meanwhile, in actual political news, UKIP's one MP has fallen out with UKIP.

It's like Robert Kilroy Silk all over again. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha.

[Tjm86]

It begins in school.

Been in a classroom lately, have you? I generally stay off this thread (unless a bit drunk) but the whole Pat Mills-y take of wicked fascist teachers crushing hopes, dream and individuality seems rooted in some 1950s reality and is a far cry from the job I actually do.

No it is actually true.  All we live for is to see the dreams of young people crushed and them to live their lives out in abject poverty and despair.  Exam results days we hold parties to celebrate all those students who failed to get their GCSE's and now are condemned to a lifetime of zero hours contract work or the dole.

(Sorry, is this not the troll baiting thread.)

[Steven Denton]

Okay, okay. Point taken. It's hard to say the right thing when everyone thinks you're wrong and I honestly don't want to upset people, so I'll bug out of here for a while and just read. No hard feelings, okay?
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One last thing before I take a rest; irony of ironies, I've just won in a vote!

You don't have to bug out. the ideas you are currently expressing have been discussed and rejected. most people accept that society is a thing and the best way to govern a society is with some kind of government. Currently your understanding of UK law is catastrophically flawed.

contribute but contribute with new, relevant, content. Derailing every discussion with giant blocks of self referential text that we have seen 10 times before is not helping any one, in my opinion.