Current TV Boxset Addiction

[pictsy]

Should be mentioned. The middle arc s07e5-8 isnt everyones' favorite. Dont let it put you off from watching episodes 9 - 12.

The middle arc was fine.  I enjoyed it as much as the first arc.  It was nice to see Ahsoka in that sort of situation.  She is really shinning as a character in this season

I don't know what I'm going to watch when I finish Clone Wars.  I was thinking of rewatching Buff the Vampire Slayer as I have found copies of the proper 3:4 original episodes.

Frasier is my favourite US sitcom.  Mainly for Niles' character arc and Roz and Daphne, who are excellent.  The sitcom does come across as anti-intellectual and conservative especially in the early seasons, but there are other readings to be had with it as well.  All in all I can always find great amounts of entertainment every time I rewatch it.  I think it concludes nicely as well.  I'm left disappointed it has finished but in a place where I can move onto the next thing.

[pictsy]

Well I just finished the last season of Clone Wars.  It was a pretty good season overall, but does peak wonderful at the end with some very effective atmosphere and sound.  It was great to see more of Ahsoka and she is definitely one of my favourite characters from the franchise.

As a series I still think that Clone Wars isn't as good as Rebels.  I would say that at their peaks they are on equal footing, but Rebels is more consistently entertaining and CW has a number of poor episodes and arcs.  I think both shows are going to join the ranks of shows I rewatch often, but I'll probably not watch CW quite as much as Rebels.

[Trooper McFad]

Should be mentioned. The middle arc s07e5-8 isnt everyones' favorite. Dont let it put you off from watching episodes 9 - 12.

The middle arc was fine.  I enjoyed it as much as the first arc.  It was nice to see Ahsoka in that sort of situation.  She is really shinning as a character in this season

I don't know what I'm going to watch when I finish Clone Wars.  I was thinking of rewatching Buff the Vampire Slayer as I have found copies of the proper 3:4 original episodes.

Frasier is my favourite US sitcom.  Mainly for Niles' character arc and Roz and Daphne, who are excellent.  The sitcom does come across as anti-intellectual and conservative especially in the early seasons, but there are other readings to be had with it as well.  All in all I can always find great amounts of entertainment every time I rewatch it.  I think it concludes nicely as well.  I'm left disappointed it has finished but in a place where I can move onto the next thing.

I too am watching CW from the beginning as I stopped after my kids grew up and stopped watching & and now I can watch in piece 😂 (only up to season 4 and with there being 20+episodes each season I've still got a bit too go).
You're right Pictsy it has its highs and lows. I know I shouldn't but I've had to stop myself from shouting at Anikin & the rest of the Jedi council for not sensing the Dark side in the Chancellor every time they meet😣
It's good to know the "rebel's" is also decent as that's what I'll do next.

[pictsy]

One of my biggest complaints is a problem they inherited from the films.  R2D2 and C3PO.  Specifically R2D2.  I keep asking, "hey, Kenobi... why don't you remember R2D2, eh?  Droid was a significant part of your life to remember.  No need to lie to Luke about (even though you are totally a liar, Kenobi), so why don't you remember, eh?"  IIRC there might have been something about the droids getting their memories wiped in RotS, but did they do Kenobi's as well?  It's a really minor thing, but it grates on my nerves.
[spoiler]
Something I do like about CW is it does present the Jedi Order as awful.  They are essentially a police force and cult that indoctrinates children.  I would have actually liked them to explore the idea that the Jedi aren't a force for good a lot more, but the fact that it does become a prominent theme is satisfying.  I also like the Sith stuff.  It essentially ditches the "there are only ever two" when there are basically five Sith running around trying to stab each other in the back.  Hmmm, evil people stabbing each other in the back for a chance at power?  Why does that sound familiar?[/spoiler]

[Trooper McFad]

Picksy you're right what you say regarding the Jedi and sometimes wish order 66 was shouted out before they send another division of clones to their "glorious" death.
I do sometimes route for the separatists wanting to destroy the Republic - it would have saved the Rebels (who no doubt were mostly separatists anyway) a lot of lives.

[TordelBack]

I keep asking, "hey, Kenobi... why don't you remember R2D2, eh? 

My take is that he does remember R2.  But think of how he encounters him: there's an Imperial Star Destroyer in orbit blowing stuff up - and suddenly here's Luke, injured, apparently lured to his desert hideaway by what looks a hell of a lot like Anakin's old astromech. What's going on? Wasn't that droid left with Bail Organa?  Is this some trick or trap of Vader's or his Master's, have they found Luke at last? So he plays dumb: "Hello there!  Come here my little friend, don't be afraid...".

Even when he wakens Luke, sees Threepio and realises the situation, he doesn't know what the droids know (he thinks: surely Bail would have had their memories wiped?) and he certainly doesn't want them telling Luke the truth - he has a pack of lies to deliver if he's going to set the last hope of the Jedi on the necessary path. He imagines Luke learning that this was his mother's droid, her gift to his father, present through all the key events of their lives: nothing's going to stop him getting that information out of R2. So Obi-Wan carries on with the pretence. 

And after all, he never did own Artoo, or any other property at all really, so his story's true, from a certain point of view.

[pictsy]

I keep asking, "hey, Kenobi... why don't you remember R2D2, eh? 

My take is that he does remember R2.  But think of how he encounters him: there's an Imperial Star Destroyer in orbit blowing stuff up - and suddenly here's Luke, injured, apparently lured to his desert hideaway by what looks a hell of a lot like Anakin's old astromech. What's going on? Wasn't that droid left with Bail Organa?  Is this some trick or trap of Vader's or his Master's, have they found Luke at last? So he plays dumb: "Hello there!  Come here my little friend, don't be afraid...".

Even when he wakens Luke, sees Threepio and realises the situation, he doesn't know what the droids know (he thinks: surely Bail would have had their memories wiped?) and he certainly doesn't want them telling Luke the truth - he has a pack of lies to deliver if he's going to set the last hope of the Jedi on the necessary path. He imagines Luke learning that this was his mother's droid, her gift to his father, present through all the key events of their lives: nothing's going to stop him getting that information out of R2. So Obi-Wan carries on with the pretence. 

And after all, he never did own Artoo, or any other property at all really, so his story's true, from a certain point of view.

I am sorry, but I don't find that take compelling.  I don't think that the deception is necessary and I think the confusion in the first film is definitely played as genuine... well, I know it is because a lot of this stuff wasn't thought up then.  In fact, a lot of the seeds for the future of Star Wars lore and CW are sown when Kenobi willing reveals information in his initial talk with Luke.

Of course it's fine if it doesn't bother you and you are happy to head cannon it away.  The droid thing is largely a representation of a problem with Star Wars in general.  It's got a lot of unnecessary or poorly dealt with contrivances.  R2D2 and C3PO did not need to be in the prequel movies and by extension, the Clone Wars.  I mean, I think the prequels existed so Lucas could sell more toys and he clearly had little interest in writing something good.  So some nice new shiny toys of those old characters... that'll be cool, right?  We'll have a child slave (who happens to be Luke's Dad) create C3PO and R2D2 can be his Mum's droid.  It's like poetry.  It rhymes.  Ugh, it's just stupid and forced into the narrative in a terrible way, like so much trash in those films.

I seemed to go off on one for a bit there.  Sorry about that.

[TordelBack]

  I mean, I think the prequels existed so Lucas could sell more toys and he clearly had little interest in writing something good.

Don't agree with this at all - whatever happened afterwards, the Lucas that created TPM was very serious about making something new and good. That he saw that articulated through technical advancement, brilliant visuals, melodramatic themes and a bit of political commentary rather than sharp dialogue, engaging characters and cohesive plot is (partly) why TPM has such a poor reputation.  But putting in beloved iconic child-friendly characters (alongside childlike new ones) is about creating a continuity of identity and appeal for audiences more than it is a cynical toy commercial.

Not that there's anything wrong with making that sweet sweet merch,  it's the penetration of toys and imagery into homes that made Star Wars the phenomenon it was, and Lucas into a billionaire filmmaker unencumbered by studio oversight (for better or worse).  Star Wars has always been a multi-media project, since before the first one even came out, and Lucas knew that.

Tl; dr: Lucas was very serious and thoughtful about making TPM good.

We'll have a child slave (who happens to be Luke's Dad) create C3PO and R2D2 can be his Mum's droid.  It's like poetry.  It rhymes.  Ugh, it's just stupid and forced into the narrative in a terrible way, like so much trash in those films.

Can't argue with any of that,  it was a mistake pure and simple - but my head-canon can only work with what it's given!

[pictsy]

I really don't know which one of us giving Lucas too much credit.  If he was serious and thoughtful about making TPM good then he failed hard.

I'm just left with the impression of a man that is less concerned with what would work best creatively over what would sell better.  Also, the most vivid thing I remember about 1999 was the toys.  There were so many toys.  There were too many toys.  So many toys.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.  We don't know the motivations of the man.  I know I don't respect him as a creative and I think he is very wrong about a lot of things.

[TordelBack]

I'm just left with the impression of a man that is less concerned with what would work best creatively over what would sell better. 

If Lucas had been focused solely on churning it out for minimum effort maximum profit,  he'd have given us something that looked like Rogue One, or The Mandalorian: bounty hunters, trenchcoats, stormtroopers.  Familiar, safe, hard-edged, cool.

But instead he went for a shiny art-deco world of emotionless monks, racing cars, political lobby groups and frog people. And then came back to it again 10 years later for The Clone Wars.  That alone shows he had a vision that went beyond selling more copies of Artoo and Threepio. That you don't think that vision translated into a good film is perfectly valid and widely-supported view,  but it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

.  We don't know the motivations of the man. 

Counsel of despair,  that. We can observe his actions and listen to his words and draw conclusions about his motivations,  same as we do with every other human.

[pictsy]

If Lucas had been focused solely on churning it out for minimum effort maximum profit,  he'd have given us something that looked like Rogue One, or The Mandalorian: bounty hunters, trenchcoats, stormtroopers.  Familiar, safe, hard-edged, cool.

I have just spent an hour re-reading your post and trying to address it, but I've come to the conclusion I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.  This makes no sense to me.  I'm not even sure we are in the same conversation any more.  I don't see the connection between your inference of what I wrote and what I wrote.  I don't see how having those elements in those films and revisiting an intellectual property preclude cynical motivations.  I am unable to continue with this discussion because I'm completely at a loss.

I know your an intelligent guy, so there is probably some sort of miscommunication here.  I'm going to just assume that I have failed to clarify my position because I really don't see how you are making these (from my perspective) erroneous connections.

My apologies if this comes across as mean spirited.  I have a tendency to sound like an arsehole without knowing it (and I clearly have the feeling that I might sound like an arsehole right now).

[TordelBack]

And my apologies if I'm being obtuse or coming across as unnecessarily contrary - I interpreted your view as being that in the late '90s Lucas was uninterested in creating something worthwhile and his real agenda was selling toys (which I don't deny was a big part of the plan).  If I misread that,  I doubly apologise: I was enjoying the discussion.

Strain your eyes and your credulity no further,  but if you can stand a bit more..

My response was to theorise that if Lucas was only interested in putting something out that cashed in on the brand and sold merch, he'd have given us something that looked and felt like Star Wars and SF did in the '90s: grim cyberpunk and bounty hunters. Not a little kid's adventures with racing cars and biplanes in the last days of the ancienne regime. Not a meticulously designed environment of chrome and colour that barely resembled the 'lived in' down-at-heel WWII universe that was his brand's identity.

And in doing so,  I believe he revealed his genuine desire to use the freedom and technology at his disposal to create a film he could be proud of. That this didn't really work - for many reasons and in many ways - doesn't take away from his creativity and,  I believe,  sincerity as a filmmaker.

[Apestrife]

One of my biggest complaints is a problem they inherited from the films.  R2D2 and C3PO.  Specifically R2D2.  I keep asking, "hey, Kenobi... why don't you remember R2D2, eh?  Droid was a significant part of your life to remember.  No need to lie to Luke about (even though you are totally a liar, Kenobi), so why don't you remember, eh?"

I always figured he's spent 20 years in the desert training to become a force ghost in order to pit Luke against his father. At this point in the story R2D2 is but a letter pigeon to him. I've never gotten the feeling that he cared much for the droids in the movies or CW series either. That was Anakin's thing, before he became Vader. To most others in SW droids seem to be things, not people.

Luke also tells him R2D2 says belongs to him, to which he replies he doesn't remember ever doing. I think he's also being coy about things. To me that's a bit like when he tells Luke that Darth Vader murdered and betrayed Anakin. Which according to Obiwan was true "From a certain point of view", and not something he needed Luke to know at the time they met.

The Jedis never struck me as having problems lying (mind tricks ftw) or spin the truth. Yoda is a prime example. He's wise, but he's not always to be trusted is he? In CW he's keeping the force ghost reveal (in S06E13) from the others, and in Ep5 he acts in a similar manner to Obiwan when meeting Luke.

But that's my take.

Btw. Did you like the ending of SW:CW with [spoiler]Vader finding Ashoka's lightsaber? To me that felt like it was the last part of Anakin dying in him. Powerful image of him disappearing in the reflection of a dead and forgotten clone trooper's helmet.[/spoiler]

[pictsy]

And my apologies if I'm being obtuse or coming across as unnecessarily contrary - I interpreted your view as being that in the late '90s Lucas was uninterested in creating something worthwhile and his real agenda was selling toys (which I don't deny was a big part of the plan).  If I misread that,  I doubly apologise: I was enjoying the discussion.

This might be a bit exaggerated.  I'd be kind and say that Lucas may have viewed Star Wars as more of a product than as a creative endeavour (not to the exclusion of it being a creative endeavour).  That, in my view, Lucas' motivations were the creation of merchandisable product that can trade off a known and safe commodity (that being the Star Wars name).  Around this point they were realising new books and interest around Star Wars was growing as those that were kids that saw it were growing up with the delicious disposable income and a wider cultural catering to what may be referred to as "geek culture".  The special editions were a big success, so I don't think it unreasonable to think that a person could be motivated to ride that success further.  I do not think that Lucas had no interest in the creative side of things, because I know that is utterly false.  We know he was very hands on.  I just think he views creativity as a commodity and perhaps that he wishes to exploit that commodity.  (I really don't know whether any of that makes sense, I feel like I'm rambling because I want to do this quickly).

Strain your eyes and your credulity no further,  but if you can stand a bit more..

My response was to theorise that if Lucas was only interested in putting something out that cashed in on the brand and sold merch, he'd have given us something that looked and felt like Star Wars and SF did in the '90s: grim cyberpunk and bounty hunters. Not a little kid's adventures with racing cars and biplanes in the last days of the ancienne regime. Not a meticulously designed environment of chrome and colour that barely resembled the 'lived in' down-at-heel WWII universe that was his brand's identity.

And in doing so,  I believe he revealed his genuine desire to use the freedom and technology at his disposal to create a film he could be proud of. That this didn't really work - for many reasons and in many ways - doesn't take away from his creativity and,  I believe,  sincerity as a filmmaker.

I don't think that a cash in necessitates a motivation to give us a product like you describe.  That was certainly a cash-in method that was and is very popular.  It's not the only way of doing it.  I'll concede this much, Lucas certainly did and probably does wish to be involved in something different.  Rather than chasing the last big thing he'd be after creating the next big thing (which is admittedly less cynical than many Holywood producers... I'll give him that much as well).  That could also explain why he didn't go for entirely familiar visuals.  From what I can gather from interviews I have seen with him from that time and after, he felt that Star Wars was always "just a kids a movie" (this is phrase I despise, but I'm not getting into that can of worms).  I know that the 90's did have a lot of murk and grit, but the decade was chock full of bright and vibrant colours as well, especially with children's media (this thing about colour is in part intended by me as a metaphor for other creative aspects like tone or action).  Honestly, I think the decisions that were made for the content of the film are consistent with commodification of the time.  In many ways, TPM might be viewed as the culmination of the "commercials disguised as cartoons" business practice that started in the 80s.

In essence, I don't think that the creative choices of TPM preclude a cynical motivation in the creation from the guy in charge.  I actually see it as the opposite, that it is a demonstration.  I would like to make clear that I do think that there were people who worked on all three films that were not cynically motivated and that had genuine care and consideration that the final creation be the best it possible can with the best creative decisions being made.  I think that is very evident and is about the only thing I appreciate about that train wreck of a trilogy.  I just don't think that Lucas can be counted amongst them.  His writing is awful and we know from his own admission at the time that he had no plan for all three movies.  That is cynical enough.  He knows he is intending on making three films and he doesn't consider how those three films connect to one another and what the over arcing story is going to be.  He half-arsed the scripts, including TPM which only stands up in comparison with worse garbage.  Actually, whilst I'm at it, this is a complaint I have with the latest trilogy.  Except it's worse, because they saw what a dumpster-fire Lucas made of things by doing the exact same thing.

Fair enough if you don't see his motivations the same as I do, but I hope you understand how I can see them as cynical.

I always figured he's spent 20 years in the desert training to become a force ghost in order to pit Luke against his father. At this point in the story R2D2 is but a letter pigeon to him. I've never gotten the feeling that he cared much for the droids in the movies or CW series either. That was Anakin's thing, before he became Vader. To most others in SW droids seem to be things, not people.

Luke also tells him R2D2 says belongs to him, to which he replies he doesn't remember ever doing. I think he's also being coy about things. To me that's a bit like when he tells Luke that Darth Vader murdered and betrayed Anakin. Which according to Obiwan was true "From a certain point of view", and not something he needed Luke to know at the time they met.

The Jedis never struck me as having problems lying (mind tricks ftw) or spin the truth. Yoda is a prime example. He's wise, but he's not always to be trusted is he? In CW he's keeping the force ghost reveal (in S06E13) from the others, and in Ep5 he acts in a similar manner to Obiwan when meeting Luke.

But that's my take.

Fair enough.  I personally don't want to have to do mental acrobatics to make story elements fit together when there was no need to create the dissonance in the first place.  The droid thing, for me, is the eye of the storm of the problems I have the prequel setting.

Btw. Did you like the ending of SW:CW with [spoiler]Vader finding Ashoka's lightsaber? To me that felt like it was the last part of Anakin dying in him. Powerful image of him disappearing in the reflection of a dead and forgotten clone trooper's helmet.[/spoiler]

Yes!  I did.  Very much so.  It was very good.  The move away from the John Williamson score for something more evocative with the consider composition and pace was refreshing and appreciated.  My big take away from the final season was that it gave the show a better ending and Ahsoka is truly awesome.

[Apestrife]

Fair enough.  I personally don't want to have to do mental acrobatics to make story elements fit together when there was no need to create the dissonance in the first place.  The droid thing, for me, is the eye of the storm of the problems I have the prequel setting.

I wouldn't call it gymnastics. Obiwan never owned R2D2 and plays it coy in A new hope. Just like Yoda does in Empire strikes back. Both in order to use Luke against Vader in Return of the Jedi.

Been my interpretation ever since I first watched ep 4-6.

Yes!  I did.  Very much so.  It was very good.  The move away from the John Williamson score for something more evocative with the consider composition and pace was refreshing and appreciated.  My big take away from the final season was that it gave the show a better ending and Ahsoka is truly awesome.

Good to hear

I love the ending. To me it's the ending to Star Wars. Very fitting ending since I watch them in release order 4-6, 1-3 and then CW. I found Ashoka's dilemma over her friendship with Anakin to be very interesting, as did her friendship and loyalty to the clone troopers. Felt like she was one of few Jedi who really cared for them. The music in the [spoiler]funeral scene[/spoiler] wrecks me every time I listen to it. I really like the Blade Runner-esque feel to it

https://youtu.be/MJrEkTEkE4Q

Yeah, I think season 6:s original ending did more to setting up Yoda for the original trilogy. To me it seemed like the whole force ghost reveal shook him up. Figures dedicating himself as a Jedi on being able to let go of things, and then to learn that death isn't the end.

I've yet to watch SW: Rebels, but I plan to. Does it have a good amount of [spoiler]Ashoka, Maul and Rex[/spoiler]?