The Political Thread

[McNulty]

As a Scot, I don't have a problem with the English. I just want the people in Scotland to run their own country and get the weapons of mass destruction out. I truly believe that we will be better neighbours with our English friends when we don't have the opportunity to blame Westminster for unpopular laws imposed on us.

[Modern Panther]

you will no longer be shat upon by an unaccountable political/business elite in Westminster, you'll just be shat upon by an unaccountable political/business elite in Holyrood.

Well, that's a good reason to never do anything, ever.

Trust in your Government. Eat your Cereal.

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

We'll still call England and Wales the UK but it will be through habit rather than anything else.

...and Northern Ireland.

That's a very southern/Londonium thing to forget about Northern Ireland! Sorry folks a very crude souther error there.  Anyway I still believe that this is too good an opportunity, particularly for the young voters to get away from the pro Freemarket lunacy of England and perhaps aim towards a little more socially cohesive strategies like the Scandinavians countries. Bit more expensive tax wise in Norway, Denmark but that's the trade off.

[Frank]

the people responsible for the parliament building and the Edinburgh trams ... you'll be forced to sell the rest of the country to Donald Trump.

Scotland is astonishingly poorly served by its political elite. The idea of Lamont, Sturgeon, Swinney, Gray, or Curran representing Scotland on the world stage is laughable. Salmond's an able politician, but the Trump humiliation raises serious concerns regarding his ability to get what he wants from negotiations with a Westminster government which no longer has any electoral reason to play nice.

Opting for either Westminster or Holyrood rule is a choice between neglect and active incompetence.

[Dog Deever]

you will no longer be shat upon by an unaccountable political/business elite in Westminster, you'll just be shat upon by an unaccountable political/business elite in Holyrood.

Well, that's a good reason to never do anything, ever.

Trust in your Government. Eat your Cereal.

Spot on Temp, we're accustomed to negative sneering cynicism though, it's been the staple of Project Fear from the get go. It's become laughable- those who do nothing achieve nothing, and simply wallow in their own hopelessness. We'd all still be living in caves eating berries and hitting each other with bones if everyone took that attitude.

[Montynero]

Scotland has a chance to rid itself of Westminster for good. It can set it's own laws etc and yes there will be a period of financial pain and uncertainty but fifteen,twenty years from now it will seem worth it.

Of course fifteen or twenty years might equally be when the damn Tory's reestablish power. These things tend to go in cycles, often with a recession in between. It might seem improbable now, but so did the SNP leading the country toward independence back when they had three seats in 1993. So did thirteen consecutive years of labour government during their wilderness years of 79-97. Anyone who thinks they're ridding themselves of conservative influence by switching to the Holyrood system of proportional representation doesn't pay much attention to history - or governments across Europe. The conservatives won over 50% of the vote in Scotland in 1955, a feat no party has repeated since, and support only truly atrophied in response to Thatcherism. Reinvention is part of politics, and that applies to the conservatives just as it does anything else in an independent Scotland.

[Frank]

The conservatives won over 50% of the vote in Scotland in 1955, a feat no party has repeated since, and support only truly atrophied in response to Thatcherism.

True - Scotland's a deeply conservative society. Everybody looks at the dominance of the Labour party in recent times, but that has more to do with the horrors inflicted upon the country during the Thatcher years. Talk to most Labour or SNP voters calling for greater social justice and saving the NHS about topics like the economy, education, immigration, and criminal justice, and they'll sound indistinguishable from the folk down South who put their X next to a Tory candidate's name every five years.

What comes out of the party apparatchiks' lips and what goes on in the heads of their voters are two different things.

[ZenArcade]

With independence at least you guys have a chance of doing something different. I have delighted in the debate both here and on the media. I am particularly taken by the astonishing insight and maturity of thought shown by the 16 - 18 year old school kids. They surely deserve more than that westminister have in store for them over the next 10 - 15 years (that is to be sacrficed on the altar of freemarket slash and burn greed). Scotland needs to decouple from this entirely negative ideology, which serves noone but those of means. So it may cost money; times may be tough for a while....is this something your forebearers haven't had to deal with. Better the initial pain with the chance to create something better. Z

[Spikes]

A Yes vote wont be easy for everyone in the UK, Z. 

This particular Englishman doesn't relish the years of cost and uncertainly either, Not least as to the effect it'll have on my wallet...

[ZenArcade]

Yes Spikes we will all pay for this. The point I'm trying to make I suppose is we are all pretty much f**ked irrespective. This is due to the kind of politico/ideological system which looks to be permently imbedded in westminister. There is, in my opinion, nothing down the road but more of the same as we've been getting ladled out this past 6 years. I feel we are being delusional if we think things are really going to improve....give the Scots a chance to possibly do something different. If it works out after a few bad years, is it not a motivator for the rest of us to ask our political classes to do the same. If it doesn't work out....well then we were going to be screwed out of the money in some other way. Z

[Frank]

With independence at least you guys have a chance of doing something different.

Maybe, Z, but as far as I can see the plan is to reject Westminster and recreate it at Holyrood with a similar cast of characters. I don't really have any faith that doing the same thing and expecting different consequences is going to produce anything like the fairer, more inclusive form of government being promised.

If there was anything radically different on offer I might be interested, but it's just the opportunity to vote for the representative of one of two national parties every five years then watch them do exactly what they're told by their boss until they need your vote again

[Spikes]

Westminster will only change if change is forced upon it, Z?

A 'yes' vote will do the job certainly, but so will a 'no' vote, imo. Especially after the promise of more powers being devolved to Scotland.


I'm not living in Scotland, nor am i registered to vote there, though I'd more than likely vote to preserve the union, but at this distance i can see merit, and fault in both camp's arguments.

Certainly i don't envy our Scottish friends having to decide, one way or another, on the 18th.

[ZenArcade]

Your society is more than the current set of politicians ensconced either in Holyrood, Stormont, Cardiff or Westminister. I am not saying things will change; if there were a yes vote and nothing were done, then yes you would have the stasis in microcosm which we see at westminister. But the nature of the referendum has more than this choice hardwired into it.
I alluded earlier to the brilliant youth of Scotland, there is the potential to harness the momentum of a yes vote to effect real change. I have listened and read of the nature of how each respective campaign works: on the no side there is a hierarchical structure which bar 'scare' tactics has had little positive to offer the debate. On the 'yes' side you have a flat, self organising structure which is much, much more than just the SNP. The momentum if utilised by motivated people and subgroupings within this 'non hierarchical' group could just possibly move and consolidate real democracy in Scotland.
It is this chance of change which me and a lot of others without Scotland are watching intently and supporting in our thoughts and indeed prayers. There has to be something better than that with which we are being served now. Z

[Old Tankie]

Saw a guest on the Sunday Politics show today say to Andrew Neil that the No's are well ahead on the postal votes!  How would he know that?

So, you've had the Three Donkeys of the Apocalypse up, begging the Scots to stay, and the rest of the Establishment (media, business, etc.) threatening plague and pestilence if there is a Yes vote. Yet, the Yes vote still seems to be holding.  Go on Scotland!  Keep your nerve and go for it!!

[ZenArcade]

Well said by a proud englishman. Z