Well if Week 1 broke you into what Round 3 could be like Week 2 will show you its extremes with possibly the tie of the Round coming in (though there is one later that possibly tops even this). Eyes will be blinding, hair will be torn out before this week is over...
I mean we wouldn't have expected this sort of tie until the Quarters maybe. Two astonishing thrills, both of which could have gone a long, long way in the tourney. But one will fall here. Zenith already has form in tough match-ups having taken down Harry 20 on the High Rock in Round 2. Button Man had a much easier time taking out that other hitman (well Button man is kinda a hitman... kinda) in Grey Suit. If this isn't the tie of the Round it's damned close and one of the toughest calls that will have to be made... maybe...
Button Man - more info (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=HARRYE)
Vs
Zenith - more info (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=ZENITH)
Just reply in this thread naming your favourite thrill of these two series at the beginning of your post (or use Bold tags so I can spot it easily) and say what you like about these wonderful stories after that.
Match ends early on the morning of Saturday 21st May and the winner gets a place in Round 4 (of 9!!!).
What on Earth is ALL of this? (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=48011.0)
For those that need 'um and can be bothered to follow 'um there's some simple rules (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=48011.msg1070150#msg1070150)
Any questions, just ask as ever - and have FUN
Wow this is a real difficult one but I will go for Button Man
Zenith
Button Man
Button Man
Button Man all day. Sure, I've grown to respect Zenith, but never to love it. Button Man has class and suspense and just plain great plotting all the way through. BM vs Stront, now that'd be a tough call...
Much of Zenith is great, including the way it all ties in together, but Wagner and Ranson were on absolutely top form all the way through, so it has to be Button Man.
Both are classics for sure. I recently reread all of Button Man. The plotting revisits the same theme through out: having got involved in the game Harry is trying to get out and gets dragged into one last contest. Arthur Ranson's art is stellar. I remember finding Fraser Irving's art jarring on book 4 at the time - but not now; it's also great.
But Zenith is a level above for me. A top five thrill. Well top 6 now, as a new thrill has come along to push it down one, but it's still great.
Dear me, this is a tough one - two of the best the prog has ever had.
But for mind-bending depth, perfect characterisation and dialogue, and a grasp of the zeitgeist that never seems try-hard or contrived, it's Zenith for me.
Zenith
That first Button Man is a classic – one of the best things that ever ran in the Prog. I'm sure in hindsight the reveal is obvious, but it threw me at the time. Every moment of that first volume felt perfectly plotted, and Toxic were absolutely bonkers for rejecting it. (I mean, come on – the comic that had that ridiculous murdery trucker strip didn't want Button Man?) After that point, mind, it felt like slight diminishing returns. I never did care for the follow-ups as much as the original – even though they were very, very good.
Zenith remains one of my all-time favourites from the Prog, and a Grant Morrison highlight. Many of his subsequent ideas (Invisibles, notably) and trailed in the pages of 2000 AD. But he's more coherent in the Prog, and less chaotic. Each book has its own vibe, including the grin-inducing and lawyer baiting DCT stuff in book three. (Although, frankly, the Beano skirts the same lines to this day – albeit without killing the parodic figures in horrible ways.) That fourth book was also wonderful as a conclusion (since I'm perfectly happy to ignore the rather iffier one-off that followed).
The one downside to Zenith for me is inconsistent art. I really wish they'd not made Phase IV a colour strip. There was just no need for that. And if I had millions years back, I'd have politely asked Steve Yeowell to draw the few strips he didn't tackle, for the HC collections. But that's it really. Zenith wins it for me.
Zenith
Button Man.
Button Man is great, but Zenith is by far one of the best series in the prog.
zenith
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 May, 2022, 08:44:35 AM
That first Button Man is a classic – one of the best things that ever ran in the Prog. I'm sure in hindsight the reveal is obvious, but it threw me at the time. Every moment of that first volume felt perfectly plotted, and Toxic were absolutely bonkers for rejecting it. (I mean, come on – the comic that had that ridiculous murdery trucker strip didn't want Button Man?) After that point, mind, it felt like slight diminishing returns. I never did care for the follow-ups as much as the original – even though they were very, very good. it for me.
Yes that is absolutely spot on. Especially with regard to the reveal in series 1. Having reread it last month it seemed blinding obvious. At the time it was a mystery. And subsequent series, as good as they were, were reruns. I think they got as much mileage out of it as they could.
Ooof. Tough draw. Zenith.
The toughest choice so far. Both are classics, but Zenith is the one I keep going back to so it gets my vote.
This is just an awful choice but I can't vote against Zenith.
Desert Island Thrills - would I rather have the entire Button Man or the entire Zenith?
Zenith
I've never understood the swooning over Zenith, but I've made my feelings clear before. Button Man gets this vote.
SBT
Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 18 May, 2022, 08:06:34 PM
I've never understood the swooning over Zenith...
Pretty sure it's the hair.
(https://i2.wp.com/www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/zenith_yeowell.jpg)
Reminds me of Morten Harket.
(https://www.eightieskids.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/1-2.jpg)
Frankly, what's not to swoon over?
Zenith
Button Man is a great thriller but Zenith is unique.
Zenith
Button Man.
When getting into 2000AD I heard lots about these series; Button Man exceeded my expectations, but Zenith didn't live upto the hype
Quote from: Funt Solo on 18 May, 2022, 08:54:16 PM
Reminds me of Morten Harket.
ISTR Morrison describing Zenith as specifically as "Nick Kamen with the ability to punch through walls".
(I only discovered just now that Kamen, of the Levi's launderette ad fame, died last year, aged 59.)
Only because people are expressing some surprise at the love for Zenith - I think it's interesting - because obviously there's a time and place aspect to our enjoyment of things. I would preface this by saying that Button Man is a great piece of work, and is really up there - it's not as if I can say that Zenith is necessarily better than it, as a piece of work.
Having said that - Zenith just hit me at the right time - and there's a magical glow in my nostalgia circuits when I hold a prog from that period ('87), that, five years later, didn't exist anymore. Steve Dillon's cover just grabbed me, for a start:
(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/2000ad/mediumres/535.jpg)
The texture of the prog's cover paper had recently changed, as well - so my memory can *feel* the comic's slight tackiness compared to the pre-520 progs.
The idea of alternate earths (apart from Sideways Scuttleton) wasn't part of my zeitgeist, I'd never read Miracle Man (which people cite as an obvious inspiration for Zenith) and hadn't got into the Cthulhu Mythos, so thought that all the dark gods stuff was terribly original. That, and doing something where superheroes were flawed still felt very new, and something to be proud of in British comics.
And then this story - the hero wasn't one, the heart-felt montage where Red Dragon recuperates ended in brutal tragedy, the person who really saved the day was a once-hippy Alan B'stard. It was just so brutal, and had this weird depth of history thing going on - it didn't pander to the reader by explaining everything for them.
And then Phase II didn't go where I thought it would go, then Phase III mostly ignored the title character, then Phase IV let the dark gods win (despite all the sacrifices of the previous parts) - even if there is a magical Usual Suspects teacup moment. Weirdly, it impressed me by continually upsetting my expectations of what it would become.
So, because of the time and place - Zenith has a magical nostalgia for me that I don't think anything printed in the prog since has any hope of touching - however good it might be. I would say it's Yeowell at the top of his game, as well.
(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/2000ad/mediumres/540.jpg)
Fair points Funt. Nostalgia will likely impact all of our votes to one degree or another!
The tension on this one is killing me. I want to do a count, but from a quick (well ish I was a little more studied in my flick through the votes) the vote appears to be going only one way. Its close but I think the current leader might be too far ahead to catch with final day votes (?). Get um in and I'll count them up in the morning.
Colin the problem is that somehow somebody reverted the votes from the alternative reality where all answers are Zenith although they voted for Button Man. So you have to reverse count them Zenith=Button Man and button Man=Button Man
Quote from: broodblik on 20 May, 2022, 06:53:54 AM
Colin the problem is that somehow somebody reverted the votes from the alternative reality where all answers are Zenith although they voted for Button Man. So you have to reverse count them Zenith=Button Man and button Man=Button Man
Yeah but when I do that I'll release I'm trapped in a bubble universe bound in a prism constituted of endless tournaments. When I see the black sun that is the eye of the Elder Gods stirring into that infinite prison I'll realise I've been manipulated and tripped and I should have kept the vote the same...
I blame Ukko for this frolicking with the gods outside his universe :(
Another few thoughts on Zenith.
It came along at the right time, when replacements for some of the classics were required. Apart from Slaine and Nemesis, there wasn't much else in the Prog at the levels we had before, and even they were on the slide a bit.
It's got some of the best ever art seen in the Prog; it's more detailed than Yeowell's later work and all the better for it. It has some of the most memorable lines of dialogue ever printed in the Prog and Zenith himself has a cheeky arrogance, combined with a selfish cowardice that drives pretty much all of his actions.
A quarter-final contender, maybe semis depending on the draw.
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 19 May, 2022, 11:32:11 PM
Fair points Funt. Nostalgia will likely impact all of our votes to one degree or another!
Of course nostalgia plays a role, but I feel obliged to say that my Zenith vote partly came about from re- reads in later life. There are levels of complexity that I just didn't see the first time round - I only worked out a few years ago why Chimera was a pyramid (though a tetrahedron would have made more sense).
Zenith has you stated Magnetica came at the right time in the prog. I do not mind "superheroes" but I do find it to be too generic and mostly becoming boring whereas Zenith was quite refreshing even compared to todays "superhero" stories. I still believe that this is Morrison's best work ever.
Honestly, I hated Zenith at the time, probably because I arrived at the Prog halfway through Phase III. Not ideal. But I don't recall anyone from my friends really enjoying it at the time. But on going back to it later, in back Progs and the Best of collections... yeah. And during every re-read, it's held up. That absolutely is not the case for me with a slew of 2000 AD strips. Very, very few stay at that level where I'll very happily read them again and still get much of the original impact. (Oddly, bar – obviously – the reveal – Button Man would be one of those, and I adored that when it originally ran, in part probably because most of the rest of the Prog was shit. But, as I said earlier, the impact of that strip for me diminished with each subsequent series.)
The funny thing (well for me anyway) is, given I don't read super hero comics, I didn't realise Zenith was one.
It was just a cool story with a lazy, self centred, brattish lead who'd rather be out partying than saving the world.
Now we're starting to roll up our sleeves!
Classic Ranson Vs Classic Yeowell.
Wagner teen sleaze up against peak Morrison.
Who did have the better arse - Ruby Fox or Cora?
It would be tough to beat that first series of Button Man on it's own, but when all is said and done, it has to be Zenith.
Top 5 2000AD all-time hall of famer for me.
I jumped ship from American comics to 2000AD to get away from all the superheros. Superheros in the pages of 2000AD, albeit well done and different, just isn't what I'm looking for from the Mighty One. The great thing about anthologies, something for everyone!
Gah such a horrid choice but choose we must. After far too much consideration I think I've got to give it to Zenith. Button Man is a top draw thrill and deserves to go much further but as others have noted it's a series of diminishing returns as the sequels retread similar ground. Zenith just keeps ratcheting up the insanity and it's that which wins out here.
Button Man.
Cheers
Near Impossible, But which collection would I reach to first to reread, probably Button Man. Button Man it it.
VOTING CLOSED
Well before we get into it - well done folks this one has been the biggest vote yet, which is hardly a surprise given the contenders.
Both those contenders are simply magnificent thrills. Both could have gone a lot further I suspect, well one still might of course. Buttonman is a magnificent thriller, truly astonishing and has some beautiful, brutal, gritty art. Zenith is more on all levels however and on that basis
Zenith
has taken more than a finger and has jump the Briggs-Rosen* Bridge into Round 4
*I don't think this is right but I can't remember what they were called and I'm too lazy to go to the nerd cave this morning!
This has been the most interesting vote so far. There was a lot of love for Buttonman and it opened up a healthy early lead (5-1), only for the Zenith supporters to come out in force. And even then Buttonman continued to pick up votes.
It wasn't actually that close in the end, and Harry Ex will be nursing his wounds after this one, as he could definitely have taken down some of the big boys.
Sometimes these votes feel unfair but then again it makes it more interesting to have heavy weight fight it out while the lesser thrills go trough to the next round
Quote from: broodblik on 21 May, 2022, 11:19:59 AM
Sometimes these votes feel unfair but then again it makes it more interesting to have heavy weight fight it out while the lesser thrills go trough to the next round
Yeah the pot luck factor just adds a bit of variety and excitment in my mind and allows each Round to have some big hitting ties (in theory at least). While this one might contain the two 'biggest' thrills there are some really big hitter facing off still to come AND one tie right towards the end that I think is even more interesting than this one.
Next Round is going to be crazy!