If the new Rogue scripts are as good as the art I might be tempted to start buying 2000 AD again. Big Colin Wilson influence which is no bad thing.
I don't have a problem with untold stories. Gerry Finley-Day certainly left hanging a few loose threads with the Norts attempts at creating their own GIs as revealed by Colonel Covert.
Let's just hope they have Rogue using the right equipment unlike in the otherwise brilliant 'Cinnabar'.
As for killing off Dredd, whyever not? Of the many things that makes Dredd more interesting than characters such as Superman is his mortality, the fact he is ageing, the fact he isn't invulnerable.
Ah but Superman never died. He came back!
It was just a gimmick by DC to increase sales.
scojo
I certainly hope the new Rogue series won't be picking up on any corny old GFD plot threads, such as they were. Anyone remember when GFD gave Gunnar telekinetic powers so he could just fly into Rogue's hand on command? Oh lordy...
And having characters with names like Colonel Covert and well...silly. The convenience of the names of Gunnar, Helm etc is bad enough, but then along came crap like Major Magnum ('cos he's, like, a big handgun, geddit?).
Which reminds me: anyone seen Paul Holden's Rogue Trooper skit about those very convienient biochip names? 'GI Buttplug: The Adventures of Rogue's Secret Fourth Biochip Buddy'
That's the original Rogue Trooper art page by Cam Kennedy I have behind me!
A Nort wearing what looks like a Roman helmet starts counting. Rogue shouts "To me Gunnar!" and Gunnar flys through the air into Rogue's hands.
"Gave that Nort a shock when I used my telekinetic power huh, Rogue"
I think I assumed at the time that Gunnar has made a sudden movement, like extended his shoulder stock or something rather than actual telekinesis.
I'm not even sure what prog it's from.
Wake
'I think I assumed at the time that Gunnar has made a sudden movement, like extended his shoulder stock or something rather than actual telekinesis. '
So even as a child you came up with a more credible rationalisation than poor old GF-D !
N
what really gave me the pip as a kid was rogue personally triumphing in every major campaign in western military history (albeit each was ammended by the suffix, "the battle of nu...").
even then it struck me as a distinct lack of imagination (on either gerry's or the original nu earth settlers'part) after the fourth repetition or soof this narrative device.
>I mean, can you honestly say you understood Pussy Foot 5?
yep, sure did, & i'm immensely looking forward to the next series after the ominous aura of foreboding permeating the final page of the last one.
also, that shape-changing gun john invented in the last series of pussyfoot has to mark the first time i've gone "wow!" about a gun since first encountering a certain lawgiver futuregraph by ian gibson as a small boy.
ich habe meinen schl?pfer n?sst!
steven l'enfant terrible
Nope, it was definitely telekeneis. Gunnar got blown up - Rogue was using a different gun for a few stories after that - and then came back. He had been regened, and was the new improved Genetic Infantryman model, complete with telekinetic powers. (You were kind of left wondering why Millcom hadn't made just made more GIs like him if it was this simple, but story logic was never GFD's strong point).
Anyway, the new Gunnar died again and ended up as a biochip in Rogue's rifle once more, although the telekinetic powers also went with him into the rifle. No, I don't really understand it either...
You must have blotted this whole sorry tale out of your thrill-circuit memory banks, Wake. Oh how I envy you ;)
Coming soon....
Rogue Trooper, The Complete History by Milo!:)
scojo
See, exactly that sort of cheesiness, the corny names, the unoriginality of it all that makes me wonder why I liked it so much when I was younger.
And when you're revamping a series (yet again!) I don't see where originality can really come into it...
I liked a lot of GFD's stuff - Harry Twenty on the High Rock was a classic, for instance, but things like that make me cringe. Like, for instance, bringing the old Rogue back into the new series, or that last "f*ck continuity" outing that so besmirched Chopper's name and smeared his memory.
Or what would have happened if they'd brought Johnny Alpha back from the dead.
How exactly Durham Red turned into that neo-sci-fi-gothic-vapire... thing, via that direction-losing "Strontium Dogs" strory, I have no real idea, though I watched it happen...
I don't want to judge it before seeing it, I just worry they're going to break all records for tasteless, mindless, re-use of a character, eternally damaging their reputation.
But what do I know, eh? I've only been reading the damn comic for the last umpteen years, so I doubt my opinion means much! :)
I have it on good authority, Gordon's Rogue Trooper tales are a classic.
If you doubt me, check out the title for one of the stories:
Rogue Trooper, Hippy Norts Make Peace And Groovy Karma.
Sounds pretty rad to me, man!
scojo more chilled than a fridge/freezer at the north pole
Storming Heaven was probably written during an acid trip - that was a complete waste of space. Or am I in a minority again?
Don't know if you're in a minority, but I at least disagree with you. There's no reason
why a story with drugs in it must have been written by a drug-user. Is Strontium Dog written by a mutant bounty hunter? Are Future Shock scripts delivered by time-machine? Writers are able to _make up_ stuff.
N
Gordon Rennie is a drug user.
I can prove it.
After all he takes Rennie indigestion tablets and they're a drug of a sort, aren't they?
HA ha ha.
I think I may have milked that Rennie tablets joke a bit too much, papa scojo.
Hmmmm....could be scojo. It was ok the first time but you keep pushing it man.
papa scojo and smurf scojo junior
I couldn't care if he is or he isn't. I just like things to have a bit of a point and make at least a modicum of sense. I was joking - but I still didn't like the strip!
No, really they weren't OK first time! I'm sure there's as much, if not more, mileage to be had from 'Nestel' than 'Rennie'. It just seems a bit pointless and unfunny.
Nathan of the unmockable surname.
Nathan,
You're welcome to try mocking my name. But any reference to a chocolate company is a tad unoriginal.
Still if Rambo thinks Ren is a drug user, it's his opinion and he's entitled to it.
Good for ya Rambo!
scojo wondering if most people here take themselves and 2k far too seriously
>I don't want to judge it before seeing it, I just worry they're going to break all records for tasteless, mindless, re-use of a character, eternally damaging their reputation.
despite my criticisms of gerry finley-day's rogue trooper earlier in this thread, i must point out that i thoroughly enjoyed the strip when it first began, but unfortunately i soon felt that the traitor general storyline was meandering with too much uninspired filler before being eventually resolved, & then poor gerry just didn't know what to do with his & dave gibbons' creation. this isn't to besmirch the actual rogue trooper concept, i think that perhaps gerry's own limitations as a writer didn't allow him to match the full potential of the material outside of the traitor general storyline.
neither of the alan moore/jesus redondo annual story or john smith's inspired cinnabar nu earth flashback were directly connected with rogue's quest for the traitor general yet are still absolutely cracking reads, so I haven't forsaken hope on gordon rennie's take yet.
ich habe meinen schl?pfer n?sst!
steven l'enfant terrible
I pretty much agree. The stories were formulaic and the characters little more than cyphers, yet enjoy 'em I did.
Perhaps we're being a little unfair to Gerry. He was, along with others such as Tom Tully and Alan Hebden, part of the old school that, for all its faults, played its part in launching 2000 AD.
>And having characters with names like Colonel Covert and well...silly. The convenience of the names of Gunnar, Helm etc is bad enough, but then along came crap like Major Magnum ('cos he's, like, a big handgun, geddit?).
Wonder what names the supporting cast in the new Rogue Trooper will have? 8-)
La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.
>So even as a child you came up with a more credible rationalisation than poor old GF-D !
Met GF-D at the 2000AD party and the words 'credible rationalisation' don't spring to mind. John Wagner & me mentioned to him about his typing error becoming part of Tharg's vocabulary (Scrotnig) and he hadn't a clue and was most dismayed to think that he was a bad typer 8-)
La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.
>>>Perhaps we're being a little unfair to Gerry. He was, along with others such as Tom Tully and Alan Hebden, part of the old school that, for all its faults, played its part in launching 2000 AD<<<
IMO, many of the old guard were damn good craftsmen - they knew how to put together an entertaining story with fairly basic elements. Those who could reached beyond this when they got the opportunity (Pat Mills, John Wagner...) and married their basic craft to a more inspired way of telling stories. Writers like GFD didn't have that spark, but they still wrote entertaining, competent tales.
To be honest, it's this basic understanding of the medium & how to tell a simple, entertaining story that's missing from a lot of strips nowadays. There's more freedom to try new styles & experiment, but without the basic tools that the older writers had to master, this creativity tends to misfire at the expense of the story.
General Gunn? Lieutenant Layzer? :-D
At least Gunn is a real name... :)
It's corny, but not ridiculous. I mean, Judge Dredd? Dr. Peyne? He's in good company! :)
I wasn't trying to slag of GFD - more the usual style back then.
What I am worrying about is that Gordon Rennie's stuff is either brilliant or bollox, with about a 60/40 split, it seems to me.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Gordon Rennie is usually better at interpreting other peoples stuff rather than coming up with originals IMO. Satanus was great, while Rain Dogs wasnt.
I'm actually really looking forward to the new Rogue, despite not holding the original runn particularly highly. There have been hints we'll be seeing a different angle on the character - rather than the very human Rogue and the softie Friday, we may finally see the hard bastard soulless killing machine that Rogue was born to be....hopefully.
Please tell me watcher, where it was written that Rogue was a hard bastard, souless killing machine?
Seeeing as GFD created the character and wrote the original and second series, I think his interpretation of the character (a GI with human traits) is closer than your so called souless version.
Honestly, some people here rewrite history to justify their argument.
scojo
If Rogue were 'souless', he wouldn't feel any anger about his fellow infantrymen dying at the Quartz Massacre, would he?
Becuse he did have a soul, he was driven with the need to avenge their deaths. This was the whole point of the story.
DOH!
So frankly like everyone here, you are posting absolute bullshit.
scojo in the mood for a fight
Kiss kiss
>>>So frankly like everyone here, you are posting absolute bullshit<<<
Charming :-O
Apart from his drive for vengeance though, Rogue was never particularly human, was he? Arguably, in some ways he was even less human than Dredd.
I doubt he was ever intended to turn into the angst-ridden muppet we've been lumbered with recently.
There's nothing like a little abuse first thing on a Sunday, is there!
Oh how I wish we could all shout and swear at each other like the old days.
Sob how I miss them.
As for Rogue, man I couldn't give a flying fuck what happens to the fucking tosspotter who should have been put down after the first fucking episode, miserable wankshitter tht he was.
Dan Abnett
Dan Abnett, you are a disgrace to your profession.
If you really wanna swear, go read a few issues of Preacher.
scojo
I'm in total agreement with scojo here.
Rogue isn't a 'souless killing machine'. That may be what the scientists who created him intended him - an unillable escapee from a Mark Millar story - to be but that isn't what he is. He cares about his comrades and he cares about avenging their deaths.
Of course, quite how he could have developed any emotional responses when he was grown in a lab and the only living things he's ever known are the faceless gene genie scientists and other living weapon GIs is another question entirely. Maybe its the fact that he does somehow possess emotions which really makes him the Rogue Trooper; something that has turned out other than its creators intended.
Mind you, I don't think he should be done in the touchy-feely Tor Cyan way either.
Stories aren't about wars, or whatever - they're about people. Even when the character is a robot or whatever - the reader has to be able to empathise with it.
Automated souless killing machines don't get the reader involved.
>>>Stories aren't about wars, or whatever - they're about people. Even when the character is a robot or whatever - the reader has to be able to empathise with it.
Automated souless killing machines don't get the reader involved<<<
Broadly, I agree. However, as I've said before, I never empathised with Rogue very much.
I could understand his plight & the reasons for his quest, but it was *Nu-Earth* that fascinated me, and the humans fighting in this hellhole who I identified with.
The Dredd comparison is apt - who here really empathises with Dredd? My attraction has always been to the city & the everyday people who have to live under the Judges.
Hmm, noone like Scojo to put forward a calmly reasoned argument....
That said I actually kind of agree against myself, or rather the way I put it in the earlier post (which did have worryingly Millarish overtones >brrrrr<).
Basically, Rogue would not act like any other soldier - he would have been bred and trained to suppress feelings like fear or sorrow. However, anger, loyalty and a desire for vengeance are very useful traits in a soldier. My description as soulless is wrong, but his reactions would certainly not be the reactions of you or I. Rogue should be a very interesting character who, like Dredd has had his humanity stifled. What I'm hoping for is a more complex character than the original Rogue, who was basically a personality free grunt.
And a small point, but a lot of people had a hand in creating Rogue - he is the closest to being a character created by committee of any in the history of 2000AD. The editorial team of the time had a massive input into the creation of rogue - see the 1983 2000AD Annual for more. Just cause GDF didn't do anything interesting with Rogue as a character doesn't mean others can't.
it would be a bit like saying that since the original Dredd film was filled with a confusing mishmash of old continuity, evil clones, Dredd's doubts about the Judicial system and Dredd being replaced that any new film should follow the same template. And who would be foolish enough to do that?:)
What I'm trying to say is that Rogue should be grim, scary, imposing, relentless - a figure of fear to the Norts and a glimmer of hope for the overwhelmed Southers - not yoir average bloke. Look to the Alan Moore/Brett Ewins Rogue story as the template. I agree with whoever said Nu Earth and the ordinary soldiers should be the stars, in much the same way as MC1 is the star of Dredd - another good example of how Rogue can be done well is the Milligan story told from the point of view of the Nort soldier. Basically GDF did good stuff with Rogue but very rarely classic stuff. The striop has the potential to be classic through and through, and shouldn't be shackled by the limitations of its previous writer.
>What I am worrying about is that Gordon Rennie's stuff is either brilliant or bollox, with about a 60/40 split, it seems to me.
Thats a very generous evaluation 8-)
La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.
Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. If only the strip wasn't saddled with those inherent contrivances such as Helm, Gunnar, and Bagman conveniently extending their lives as part of the weaponary they were most adept at. And did anyone else ever try rationalizing how Rogue's three companions so conveniently had the numbers one, two, and three on their bio-chips? The best I could come up with was that that was the order in which they emerged from their test tubes.
>Becuse he did have a soul, he was driven with the need to avenge their deaths. This was the whole point of the story.
You don't need a soul to seek vengence. If you were raised from birth to be the perfect soldier you'd simply want to avenge your comrades death. In fact the lack of soul comes in handy when you are expected to kill on command.
La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.
>>>I agree with whoever said Nu Earth and the ordinary soldiers should be the stars, in much the same way as MC1 is the star of Dredd - another good example of how Rogue can be done well is the Milligan story told from the point of view of the Nort soldier<<<
That would be :-)
There are a thousand-and-one interesting tales to be told about Nu-Earth, but IMO, few of them have Rogue as a central character.
Did someone say NEW DREDD FILM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
scojo
>>Rogue should be a very interesting character who, like Dredd has had his humanity stifled<<
Ah, but that's the point,isn't it? Rogue _isn't_ human. He's not a clone of a real person, as Dredd is. He was grown in a lab. He was purpose-designed for war on Nu Earth. His physiology is pretty much non-human (can you breathe poison gas or go for a swim in acid?) and whatever emotions he has should also be rather alien to us.
True - though I expect that it would be easier to give someone physiological advantages such as harder skin, than to genetically muck about with their minds. You'd want a level of 'human' emotions left, in order for them to operate in such a way as to have advantages over robotic soldiers. Loyalty, determination to survive and succeed, patriotism etc. You'd probably be better doing that from birth rather than before.
Talking of Rogues 'early years', If you were the Southers, I'd expect you'd want to accelerate their physical development - you wouldnt want them to take 15 years to grow, probably the most you'd want to invest in them is 5 years tops. I know the whole biochip thing is supposed to explain that, but you'd probably only want to teach them fairly simple interactions, - kill the bad guy, look after the good guy - they havent got to learn the complete works of Shakespeare to be efficient killers. Might be interesting if Rogue was no more than nursery age....
>Might be interesting if Rogue was no more than nursery age....
Kind of a radical departure from the original, though? Remember, the new series is kind of Legends of Rogue Trooper. ie. it's all the stories you didn't see first time around set between all the stories you did see. It's not really a reboot or a retcon, although I imagine there'll be a certain degree of re-interpretation to bring the strip more up to date.
I don't think the actual age of Rogue has ever been defined - we've seen him as a child, but there's been nothing to say how long that childhood lasted. However, if they're going to be flashbacks, then I don't suppose you can be too radical. That said, I think there's got to be some space to flesh out Rogue and Nu Earth, otherwise whats the point? And that's got to mean contradicting or at the very least embellishing the original run, surely?
Well I liked things like Glimmer Rats and Necronauts, but Raindogs was unreadable, and my opinion of Storming Heaven is above, and none-too complimentary.
I call 'em as I see 'em! :)
>>>Well I liked things like Glimmer Rats and Necronauts, but Raindogs was unreadable, and my opinion of Storming Heaven is above, and none-too complimentary<<<
Bleh - Glimmer Rats was fairly unimpressive. It felt like a generic future war story, read like a generic future war story, had generic future war story characters... The art was cluttered & noisy, and really didn't tell the story well at all.
Raindogs had some potential - a flooded city, cannibals swarming through downtown jungles & rooftop battles with psychotic airship-men... very cool. Unfortunately, the story Gordon Rennie decided to tell with this was dull & predictable.
Necronauts - the best of the bunch. Gorgeous art & an entertaining hook, topped off with a pretty good story. Again, huge potential as an ongoing series.
Storming Heaven. Superb art & an excellent what-if setup, fucked into a cocked hat by a story that didn't take the time to build up the characters or actually go anywhere interesting.
The pattern that emerges with Gordon Rennie's writing is a welter of wonderful, lunatic ideas that lack focus. He gives us LSD superheroes & demon-fighting escapologists, then pisses this away with weak stories.
Glimmer Rats - The art was good if a little confused an murky at times, but that's hardly the fault of the writer. Sure, it was a generic future war story, but on with a bit of a twist - but isn't that what Rogue Trooper was?
Raindogs... I a cross between Mad Max 3 and Waterworld, only without the exciting bits... To be brutally honest, I only read the first 2 or 3 parts, then gave up. I haven't done that since Really and Truly...
Necronauts - great art (who says colour is better than black and white?), great story. Just great, really - something fresh and different.
Storming heaven - art powerful, but rather too psychadelic for my liking. Maybe it's just that I don't like pink! The story - um... it didn't really have one, did it?
And I thought Missionary Man (the earlier stuff, anyway) was pretty good. That Satanus story, too.
Sometimes though, they seem to be utter bollox, not to put too fine a point on it!
>>>Glimmer Rats - The art was good if a little confused an murky at times, but that's hardly the fault of the writer<<<
Fair point - I still stand by what I said though: the art failed miserably when it came to telling a story, no matter how nice it looked in parts.
>>>Sure, it was a generic future war story, but on with a bit of a twist - but isn't that what Rogue Trooper was?<<<
Personal prejudice in effect :-) I always loved Rogue Trooper, and despite it's failings I still do.
>>>Raindogs... I a cross between Mad Max 3 and Waterworld, only without the exciting bits...<<<
There were *exciting bits*? ;-)
>>>To be brutally honest, I only read the first 2 or 3 parts, then gave up. I haven't done that since Really and Truly...<<<
The whole thing pretty much fell apart after the first episode. Like I said, good setup & plenty of potential squandered.
>>>Storming heaven - art powerful, but rather too psychadelic for my liking. Maybe it's just that I don't like pink! The story - um... it didn't really have one, did it?<<<
Not much of one. It should have been spun out over several 3- or 5-part tales for the first run, introducing us to the characters & letting us get to know more about the world they lived in. Throw in hints of Caliban & the bad trips then plunge into the final act, as Caliban tears his way through everyone we've got to know.
Instead, we got the whole tale crammed into one dense ride - and it failed.
>>>And I thought Missionary Man (the earlier stuff, anyway) was pretty good. That Satanus story, too<<<
Missionary Man's been one of the most consistent tales to come from his pen, but I've gotta disagree on Satanus.
Nice art, but the story was fairly pedestrian. I'd lump it in with Glimmer Rats - somewhere well below Missionary Man & Necronauts, but above Rain Dogs.
>another good example of how Rogue can be done well is the Milligan story told from the point of view of the Nort soldier.
thanks, blackblood; i'd completely forgotten about this superb piece. it all comes back to me now, sitting in my pop's favourite chair & windering "why couldn't it be like tis every week?"
i've wet my knickers!
steven l'enfant terrible
(who this morning spent oz$5.50 on a bunch of beautiful birthday cards just because they were the work of rian hughes)
>Raindogs... I a cross between Mad Max 3 and Waterworld,
my response was jg ballard filterd through guns & roses, though i haven't seen either of these films (my most recent cinematic experience is seeing two consecutive sessions of the gobsmackingly wonderful amelie on boxing day!)
>I only read the first 2 or 3 parts, then gave up. I haven't done that since Really and Truly...
talk about an alien mindset!
i've wet my knickers!
steven l'enfant terrible
(who spent the whole weekend listening to the new cornershop album on repeat)
"Necronauts - great art (who says colour is better than black and white?)"
Nobody. Colour is for girls.
N
Glimmer Rats - Couldn't read because of the art. So I have no opinion on the writing.
Raindogs - A convincingly written future world and female characters done better than, say, Durham Red.
Necronauts - Fantabulastic. Quite simply the best thing I'd read in 2000AD for at least ten years.
Storming Heaven - I've said so many times before why I liked this. It was completely different to what we're used to in 2000AD (and don't give me that Zenith rubbish) and was a fine example of a writer playing brilliantly to his artist's strengths.
Also Reefer Madness was great and Missionary Man is surely a classic character.
Satanus, Mean Machine and such recent Dredd gems as The Big Lie and Couch Potatoes prove Gordon is second to none when it comes to doing justice to established characters. Therefore I am really looking forward to seeing what he does with Rogue.
N
I guess taste is everything, innit?
Everyone seemed to like Necronauts and Missionary Maniac, but opinions differ drastically over his other efforts.
Go figure.