2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Film & TV => : milstar 12 October, 2021, 01:42:35 PM

: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 12 October, 2021, 01:42:35 PM
https://screenrant.com/marvel-controversy-cb-cebulski-akira-yosihda-steven-deknight/

I know this has been a long ago, and DeKnight is a bit late to the party, but he has a point here. But it's bonkers tying up his show with because of CB's wrongdoings in the past.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Tomwe 12 October, 2021, 01:46:59 PM
But it's bonkers tying up his show with because of CB's wrongdoings in the past.
He's tying up his writing of various Marvel comics, under CB. The DD tv show ended some time ago.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: CalHab 12 October, 2021, 03:58:54 PM
The Cebulski thing is so utterly insane. Senior people at Marvel must have known and that's why they won't deal with it, because it would bring their position into question. "Akira Yoshida" was getting paid and must have had a contract, after all.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 12 October, 2021, 06:24:59 PM
The Cebulski thing is so utterly insane. Senior people at Marvel must have known and that's why they won't deal with it, because it would bring their position into question. "Akira Yoshida" was getting paid and must have had a contract, after all.

I am not sure about that. Does 2000ad editors know who Ken Niemand is?
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Colin YNWA 12 October, 2021, 06:29:50 PM
The Cebulski thing is so utterly insane. Senior people at Marvel must have known and that's why they won't deal with it, because it would bring their position into question. "Akira Yoshida" was getting paid and must have had a contract, after all.

I am not sure about that. Does 2000ad editors know who Ken Niemand is?

A lot of folks on Facebook certainly think they do!

Yeah it seems apparent that 2000ad staff know who Ken Niemand is really.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Funt Solo 12 October, 2021, 07:05:10 PM
It's quite ironic how much fandom's all in a frenzy over Ken Niemand being a pen-name. Because, and I realize this may not be obvious, my real name doesn't rhyme with [Scunthorpe].

Farcebookers are bound to be a bit more upset because so many of them use actual factual monikers. Plus, the MAGAverse hierarchy have a long-running grudge with Rennie (I was shown that they're currently posting art of him as a grotesque slime monster) and are obsessed with their pet theory of him being Niemand.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 12 October, 2021, 08:51:11 PM
It's quite ironic how much fandom's all in a frenzy over Ken Niemand being a pen-name. Because, and I realize this may not be obvious, my real name doesn't rhyme with [Scunthorpe].

Farcebookers are bound to be a bit more upset because so many of them use actual factual monikers. Plus, the MAGAverse hierarchy have a long-running grudge with Rennie (I was shown that they're currently posting art of him as a grotesque slime monster) and are obsessed with their pet theory of him being Niemand.

Don't know about MAGA, but apparently many buy that Rennie is Niemand thanks to Mills' tweet.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: M.I.K. 12 October, 2021, 09:20:43 PM
It's quite ironic how much fandom's all in a frenzy over Ken Niemand being a pen-name. Because, and I realize this may not be obvious, my real name doesn't rhyme with [Scunthorpe].

Farcebookers are bound to be a bit more upset because so many of them use actual factual monikers. Plus, the MAGAverse hierarchy have a long-running grudge with Rennie (I was shown that they're currently posting art of him as a grotesque slime monster) and are obsessed with their pet theory of him being Niemand.

Don't know about MAGA, but apparently many buy that Rennie is Niemand thanks to Mills' tweet.

...Mills believing it to be the case, purely because that's what he's been told by halfwits on t'internet.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Tomwe 12 October, 2021, 10:47:49 PM
That got off-topic quick.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Jim_Campbell 12 October, 2021, 11:07:16 PM
I am not sure about that. Does 2000ad editors know who Ken Niemand is?

Oh, for God's sake. From the very early days of 2000AD various writers (and artists) have used pseudonyms and of course editorial have known who they are, unless they're deliberately obfuscating their contributions through an agent to avoid it being known that they were also actually the editor. Mentioning no names.

"Ken" was on a Thrillcast and and right up front they addressed the fact that, yes, his name is a pseudonym. It's not a secret that this is the case. I'm sure Rebellion accounts knows who to make the payments to. I'm sure Tharg know where to send the Rigellian Hotshots.

(There are actually very good reasons for segmenting a writing career with different publishing names, apart from the convention of using a different name if yours is already in use. The BIG one, which Charles Stross blogged about a few years back, is that book distributors will use the sales of your last book to estimate orders for your next book. If you write a wildly successful YA book that hits the bestseller list one year, then a literary fiction novel the next, the distributors will over-order the literary book based on the massive sales of the YA one, then drastically cut the orders for the book after that based on the 'low' sales of the literary one, even though the next one is a follow-up to the YA bestseller. There's a reason Iain Banks chose to distinguish his SF from his 'literary' novels by adding the "M" to his name for the SF — it got him two separate columns on the distributors' spreadsheet.)
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Funt Solo 12 October, 2021, 11:15:41 PM
That got off-topic quick.

Unwritten Laws of the Forum #23: any topic started on a Tuesday eventually devolves to bashing Mills.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 12 October, 2021, 11:36:39 PM
That got off-topic quick.

Yes, and I take absolute fault for it. Though, who Ken Niemand is, may stalk forum members for some time.
Can any subsequent post be about the topic at hand?
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Tjm86 13 October, 2021, 07:51:44 AM
The Cebulski thing is so utterly insane. Senior people at Marvel must have known and that's why they won't deal with it, because it would bring their position into question. "Akira Yoshida" was getting paid and must have had a contract, after all.

I am not sure about that. Does 2000ad editors know who Ken Niemand is?

I'm not sure that the two are comparable.  Looking at the original linked article the major issue is with cultural appropriation.  Cebulski presented as Japanese under the Yoshida pseudonym to give his work a specific cultural authenticity. 

On the other hand Niemand is, as Jim quite rightly points out, simply a pseudonym for a writer looking to segment work.  There is no inference regarding his persona that is being used to give cultural cachet in the same way that Cebulski allegedly was. 

It's more like back in the day when 90% of the prog was written by Grant and Wagner so they used pseudonyms to hide the fact.  [please bear in mind the rule of thumb that any percentages that are multiples of 10 should be considered suspect / estimates].
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: CalHab 13 October, 2021, 08:22:01 AM
Deleted post, as I see Jim made a similar (and more helpful) post above.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: CalHab 13 October, 2021, 08:59:34 AM
On the other hand Niemand is, as Jim quite rightly points out, simply a pseudonym for a writer looking to segment work.

Yeah, If I remember right, in the Thrillcast "Niemand" mentions that he's a writer for television and radio.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: CalHab 13 October, 2021, 09:05:37 AM
The Cebulski thing is so utterly insane. Senior people at Marvel must have known and that's why they won't deal with it, because it would bring their position into question. "Akira Yoshida" was getting paid and must have had a contract, after all.

I am not sure about that. Does 2000ad editors know who Ken Niemand is?

There's no way they couldn't know:

Marvel Payroll: Hi, just a quick question about this Akira Yoshida guy.
Marvel Editor: Um..... yeah.
Marvel Payroll: The form says to pay C.B. Cebulski, who is a member of staff and it gives his bank details.
Marvel Editor: Yeah.... C.B. says he'll sort it out.
Marvel Payroll: Oh, that's okay. I'll ignore the fraud and theft red flags. I see no issue in risking my livelihood on your say so.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Link Prime 13 October, 2021, 09:43:54 AM
I met Cebulski a few years back at a convention in Dublin - real nice guy.
Whole topic is a bit of a joke IMO, but I can only take those that seem genuinely upset about it at face value, and bemusedly nod at them.
Whatever your take, its difficult to disagree that yer man DeKnight just comes across as a sanctimonious ass*

2021 ain't over folks - we'll have Cavan Scott demanding that Matt Smith step down for 'Green-face' yet.
 

*I will always love him for that Spartacus series though.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Jim_Campbell 13 October, 2021, 11:14:10 AM
Whole topic is a bit of a joke IMO, but I can only take those that seem genuinely upset about it at face value, and bemusedly nod at them.

Not for the first time, I feel compelled to point out that if you fit with this forum's overwhelming demographic (middle aged white men) then other people may legitimately feel very differently about this — particularly aspiring BAME/BIPOC comic creators. Marvel was getting a lot of flak for the overwhelmingly white-male-ness of their creators at the time, and they gave work to "Akira Yoshida" rather than, y'know, an actual Asian writer.

If this had just been Cebulski trying to get around the rule that editorial staff couldn't also freelance for the company, that would be pretty bad. That he did so whilst adopting a pseudonym that clearly implied a different ethnicity to his own is, at the very least, incredibly tone deaf.

2021 ain't over folks - we'll have Cavan Scott demanding that Matt Smith step down for 'Green-face' yet.

This is really rather dismissive and very demeaning towards genuine hurt and anger some people feel over this issue. Comic creators who are POC feel, legitmately, under-represented in mainstream comics and, to many of them, this whole thing feels like a slap in the face.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Link Prime 13 October, 2021, 12:14:43 PM
As demonstrated by some posts on this very thread, fictional writing is achievable for anyone - regardless of their skill set.

If you like the idea of going the pseudonym route, be mindful that some may take issue with the following:

Steelgrave - American
Grover - Punjabi
Skuter - Fictional
Ripley - English
Hamilton - Irish / Scottish
Powell - Welsh
Niemand - German / Scottish




: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Jim_Campbell 13 October, 2021, 12:34:27 PM
If you like the idea of going the pseudonym route, be mindful that some may take issue with the following

I don't know how much more clearly I can explain this specific situation to you. I have literally no idea what you think that list demonstrates in relation to the point under discussion, ie: a white man adopting a pseudonym that clearly implies a different ethnicity to his own at a time when the publisher he worked for was getting (deserved) flak for the under-representation of non-white creators in their books.

(And, FWIW, although Grover has a Punjabi origin, it also exists as an Anglicisation of Gruber.)
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: M.I.K. 13 October, 2021, 12:52:14 PM
(And, FWIW, although Grover has a Punjabi origin, it also exists as an Anglicisation of Gruber.)

It also exists as an English surname.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: M.I.K. 13 October, 2021, 12:59:34 PM
Also, I don't think Steelgrave is a real name either. It's certainly been "borrowed" from a fictional character.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Jim_Campbell 13 October, 2021, 01:06:02 PM
It also exists as an English surname.

I kind of thought that was implied by the word "Anglicisation"… :-)
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: M.I.K. 13 October, 2021, 01:27:48 PM
Aye, but it also implies that it wasn't English to begin with.

There are at least three origins for the name, the English one being derived from "someone who lives near a grove" in much the same manner that mine is probably derived from "someone who lives near a church", (though flip knows which particular Northern European country that actually originates in).
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Jim_Campbell 13 October, 2021, 01:30:47 PM
There are at least three origins for the name

Well, you learn something new every day!
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: CalHab 13 October, 2021, 01:35:07 PM
Anybody using the name Grover who isn't a furry blue monster is guilty of muppet-ural appropriation.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Link Prime 13 October, 2021, 01:41:10 PM
The crux of the matter is this; Cebulski used the pseudonym around 15 - 20 years ago when it's likely no-one gave a flying fuck.

We can assume his rise to EIC at Marvel had everything to do with the fact he was good at the job and a personable fellow, and little to do with the fact he wrote some Kitty Pryde comics that eleven people read in 2005.
If there was an issue with the Akira (I can't believe I'm typing this) Yoshida pseudonym, it was probably handled internally by Marvel HR / Management.

My opinion on this specific topic (and not all topics of perceived inequality I feel I must add, for obviousness sake) - informed, and unapologetically dismissive, is as valid as anyone's - including Steven S. DeKnight's
My ethnicity and background is completely irrelevant - as is Steven S. DeKnight's. Unless it's about which one of us you agree with.

As for the topic in hand - I'm a nobody, a Niemand if you will (sorry, just a sprinkle of much needed levity) shooting the shit on a bespoke comic forum on a quiet day in the office. My opinion matters as much as the brand of cholesterol reducing oat milk you're about to pour into your coffee.
DeKnight is a well regarded Hollywood writer / producer calling for his current boss to be dismissed via social media admonishment. Bit of a tosser if you ask me.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Link Prime 13 October, 2021, 01:44:17 PM
Anybody using the name Grover who isn't a furry blue monster is guilty of muppet-ural appropriation.

The gentrification of Sesame Street. How did it come to this?
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Funt Solo 13 October, 2021, 04:06:16 PM
...15 - 20 years ago when it's likely no-one gave a flying fuck.

Data begs to differ*:

(https://icv2.com/images/articles/1500x1500_1ac54bb10fcfcf9e3e7f3f7a96c2168e8aac178c06b23d0a76083f80.jpg)

Anyone looking at sales might have considered there'd be some worth in adopting an Asian-sounding name in comics around that time. At the very least, we can assume that Cebulski gave a fuck.



* Although we don't really need a chart to tell us that cultural appropriation didn't suddenly spring into existence in the last decade. People be woke before the word. Word!
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Funt Solo 15 October, 2021, 02:08:13 AM
DeKnight is a well regarded Hollywood writer / producer calling for his current boss to be dismissed via social media admonishment. Bit of a tosser if you ask me.

I was thinking about this and I agree that DeKnight calling for Cebulski to be fired is too strong. This would be where the concept of "cancel culture" needs something of a makeover and a rethink. When someone fucks up (at this scale), there should be room in society for them to make good their mistake, rather than just can them.

DeKnight could have suggested a charitable donation, or a scheme that promotes under-represented creatives into the industry. He could even have championed something like that himself, or approached Cebulski personally to discuss the issue.

DeKnight & Cebulski's a good name for a law firm, though.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 15 October, 2021, 07:24:10 AM
Cebulski needs to apologize. Nothing more. And ensure greater degree of people of Asian origin working for Marvel. But only those who know the stuff, not hiring random Asians he meets.

I mean, it's not like some people deserve the worst they can get. Just when someone bitched about Clint Eastwood making a hilarious joke (for people who understand the humor) at the Oscar ceremony nearly 50 years ago.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Richmond Clements 15 October, 2021, 12:27:50 PM
CB Cebulski yesterday.

(https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2020/06/12/17/mickey-rooney-breakfast-at-tiffanys.jpg?width=640)
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Funt Solo 15 October, 2021, 05:22:35 PM
Cebulski needs to ... ensure greater degree of people of Asian origin working for Marvel. But only those who know the stuff, not hiring random Asians he meets.

Cebulski definitely needs our advice here - lest he decides, as you say, to just hire "random Asians he meets". I mean, there's a good sketch in there somewhere.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 15 October, 2021, 07:50:34 PM
Cebulski needs to ... ensure greater degree of people of Asian origin working for Marvel. But only those who know the stuff, not hiring random Asians he meets.

Cebulski definitely needs our advice here - lest he decides, as you say, to just hire "random Asians he meets". I mean, there's a good sketch in there somewhere.

Why you rewrote my post?
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: The Monarch 15 October, 2021, 08:49:22 PM
i think theres a wee bit of a difference between someone using a pen name and someone straight up gaslighting people into thinking hes a japanese translator of manga who had an entire backstory written so an editor could get an extra job. its not exactly tharg is it?
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Funt Solo 15 October, 2021, 10:18:33 PM
Cebulski needs to ... ensure greater degree of people of Asian origin working for Marvel. But only those who know the stuff, not hiring random Asians he meets.

Cebulski definitely needs our advice here - lest he decides, as you say, to just hire "random Asians he meets". I mean, there's a good sketch in there somewhere.

Why you rewrote my post?

The ellipses are a clue for the reader that there was more text in the original. I don't believe I disturbed your meaning. You did say what I quoted.

Are you more than one person, by the way? The reason I ask is that one of you has near perfect English and the other you seems to be operating with English as a second language. Just curious. From the content, I imagine a KGB cell whose remit is to annoy the f*ck out of the West.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: Mister Pops 15 October, 2021, 11:37:12 PM
S'funny 'cos our Shark is like a vaccine against this sort of shite.
: Re: Steven S.DeKnight vs CB Cebulski
: milstar 16 October, 2021, 12:00:13 AM
Cebulski needs to ... ensure greater degree of people of Asian origin working for Marvel. But only those who know the stuff, not hiring random Asians he meets.

Cebulski definitely needs our advice here - lest he decides, as you say, to just hire "random Asians he meets". I mean, there's a good sketch in there somewhere.

Why you rewrote my post?

The ellipses are a clue for the reader that there was more text in the original. I don't believe I disturbed your meaning. You did say what I quoted.

Are you more than one person, by the way? The reason I ask is that one of you has near perfect English and the other you seems to be operating with English as a second language. Just curious. From the content, I imagine a KGB cell whose remit is to annoy the f*ck out of the West.

Yes, well, I still think that CB owes an apology.

I don't know...Sometimes when I am typing something, I feel peculiarly possessed. Especially when it comes to my shorter posts. The minimum number of prepositions that prompt an activation phase.