The Political Thread

[NapalmKev]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24645300

"30 Activists on a dead man's chest, Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of ...", hang on, they ain't even Pirates.

Cheers

[Frank]

I was going to write another anecdote here but I really don't want to start typing out stories about family members on the internet. I'm losing the point of what I'm trying say here but I think it's something along the lines of - if you ignore (or deny the existence) of the small problems, they're likely to turn into big problems.

I know what you mean, and I can think of one member of my own extended family doing exactly as you describe, but I can think of many more disabled folk I know who deserve whatever they get - some of whom work as well as receiving DLA. The argument is generally that those who were once fraudulently claiming unemployment benefit have migrated onto Disability Living Allowance, but by far the greatest increase in the number of new claimants since the benefit was introduced are either below or above working age:

[JamesC]

We already have big problems, most notably that we're seemingly happy being ground underfoot.  If some working class tosser doesn't need 38 pounds a week, a multi-millionaire doesn't need 40 000 pounds a week on top of paid room and board, travel costs and expenses.  It's the fuckers at the top that need looking at, not bottom-feeders, but like the obedient chattel we are we'd sooner fight amongst ourselves than be free of our slavemasters.

While I wouldn't say I agree with everything above it does highlight the point that emotions are important in politics.
While taking from the pensioners and giving to the unemployed may make sense mathematically it doesn't emotionally. It's no good building a society where everyone has X amount in their bank account if were all at each other's throats. I think the majority of people would prefer a just society to a mathematically logical one.

[Jim_Campbell]

I'm afraid I have no hard data but I'd like to think that people will take my anecdotal evidence as truth.

You appear to understand the meaning and significance of data. I'm not suggesting your anecdote isn't true, I'm pointing out that it's not significant.

For example:

If a child grows up in a house where, not only does no one work but no one intends to work then it seems to me the problem will only increase over the generations.

Ian Duncan Smith's "households where three generations have never worked" simply does not exist. There is no data to support this claim; IDS just makes up shit based on his prejudices and things he hears down the gentleman's club and then enacts policy on it.

I'm not saying that these people don't exist. I know people who don't work and seem happy to sit on their arses claiming benefits, but they're not statistically significant. There will always be a small number of people who can game the system, the question is whether you want to devise a system that disadvantages the vast majority of legitimate claimants simply to weed out a tiny percentage who are taking the piss.

As someone who's experienced occasional periods of unemployment, I would rather there was a functioning safety net rather than a regime designed to make the whole experience so unpleasant that no one in their right mind would ever try to avail themselves of it.

Cheers

Jim

[JamesC]

Understood.
I think that's an excellent post that anyone in their right mind would find it hard to disagree with.
I think my other point, about it not being statistically significant but emotionally significant stands. I think people who do have this kind of anecdotal evidence deserve to be heard and not just shot down.
I have to say though, that if politicians explained the situation in the way you just have it would be really helpful.

[von Boom]

Someone would have to explain it to them first.

[JOE SOAP]

It's the fuckers at the top that need looking at, not bottom-feeders, but like the obedient chattel we are we'd sooner fight amongst ourselves than be free of our slavemasters.

Man...I told you...I didn't wanna be involved!

[The Prodigal]

It's depressing but true - and I know this because members of my own family are doing it right now. They deny their existence because they can then lambast anyone who mentions it as an elitist nutter who is anti working class.

Anecdote ≠ data

The fact is: fraud is a minuscule part of the total benefit bill. The government is throwing hundreds of millions of pounds at ATOS to harass and humiliate disabled people because it fits with their narrative and chimes with the prejudiced streak of things the general public 'know is true'.

At the same time, they're cutting staffing levels at HMRC to the bone, to the point where the Revenue can't even make sure tax that they know is legitimately owed is collected, never mind go after the billions of pounds that are siphoned out of the UK economy by the wealthy and corporations through evasion and accounting fast practise. The returns to the UK Treasury from shutting ATOS down and giving the exact same amount of money to HMRC to spend on enforcement and collection would be orders of magnitude higher than they're extracting from the benefit fraud 'clampdown'.

Cheers

Jim

One of my favourite posts on the internet ever.

[The Prodigal]

Over a family lunch, discussion of Ramadan with my son (7) included the fact that three kids in his class (in one of the relatively few non-religious schools in the country) are Muslims, or have at least one Muslim parent. Instantly my mother comes out with: "I hate the way these Muslims are taking over everything". 

I'm used to this kind of thinking*, but the bald instantaneous venom of this remark, in front of kids and effectively  about kids, took me aback.

Where does this kind of thing come from?  How could anyone think that in the Republic of Ireland, of all the monotheistic places on Earth, Islam is 'taking over'?  Taking over from what, institutionalised child abuse and hospitals and schools run as the executive arms of some medieval cult?  How do three children (all of whom, it goes without saying, are really nice kids) in a class of 28, in a school specifically chosen by us because of its explicit commitment to diversity, merit such a response? 

Is this simply a picture created by the media (my mother reads the Mail and listens to talk radio), or do the media just cater to an existing perception?  How do you tackle this barbarians-at-the-gates mentality?




*Some context, no need to read: While in other respects a kind and selfless person who I love very much, my mother is an appalling bigot of the most parochial nature imaginable: people from other postal districts are to be pitied and feared in equal measure, never mind those with different skin tones, variant religious mumbo-jumbo or a hint of a divergent accent.  The laughable exceptions to this rule are anyone she has ever actually met, all of whom are presented as miraculous individual exceptions to the genetic-and-or-cultural cesspool they hail from.  It'd be funny if it wasn't so fucking awful.

Tordelback I have been involved all my professional life in work around prejudice awareness-primarily anti-sectarian work but also other related fields such as anti-racism and anti-homophobia. The work has un-covered some gems. A few years back a bunch of young loyalists advised me in alarmed tones how "pakis" were taking over their town. Further investigation revealed that 4 had been spotted observing a parade.

[Old Tankie]

People's fears need to be addressed rather than just calling them idiotic Mail readers.  There's plenty of nonsense in The Guardian but that seems to be okay.  I think people are worried about jobs for their children/grandchildren; school places; housing; social mobility; access to health services.  Why, with almost a million 18-24 year olds out of work, are we continuing to import labour?  Why have we scraped the retirement age?  How does that help young people to get work?

People won't be getting disability living allowance for much longer, it's being scraped.

[Richmond Clements]

People's fears need to be addressed rather than just calling them idiotic Mail readers.  There's plenty of nonsense in The Guardian but that seems to be okay.  I think people are worried about jobs for their children/grandchildren; school places; housing; social mobility; access to health services.  Why, with almost a million 18-24 year olds out of work, are we continuing to import labour?  Why have we scraped the retirement age?  How does that help young people to get work?

People won't be getting disability living allowance for much longer, it's being scraped.

People will continue to vote Tory, that's why...

[Jim_Campbell]

Why, with almost a million 18-24 year olds out of work, are we continuing to import labour? forcing people on benefits to work for nothing?

A more pertinent question, since it's within the direct control of the government and not subject to considerations of European or international law. If Tesco has shelves that need stacking, why the fuck isn't Tesco paying minimum wage and employing someone to do it? Oh, because the DWP will send someone along to do it at the taxpayers' expense.

But, never mind, as long as Ian Duncan Smith is being tough on the scroungers. All in the name of 'fairness' of course.

Cheers

Jim

[Old Tankie]

What!!  No shelf stackers in Tesco's are being paid by Tesco's?  I find that hard to believe.  But, if it's true, I totally agree with you, it's bang out of order!  Or is that a slight exaggeration?

[Richmond Clements]

http://news.sky.com/story/1147058/jobless-to-be-forced-to-work-for-benefits

[Jim_Campbell]

What!!  No shelf stackers in Tesco's are being paid by Tesco's?  I find that hard to believe.  But, if it's true, I totally agree with you, it's bang out of order!  Or is that a slight exaggeration?

It would be an exaggeration if that was what I said but, if you read what I wrote carefully and get a grown-up to help you with the long words, you may notice that I didn't say anything of the fucking kind.

Jim