The Political Thread

[TordelBack]

If I could get one point across to the voting public of the UK it would be that there are roughly as many UK citizens enjoying their right to legally live, work and yes even sponge elsewhere in the EU as there are EU citizens enjoying the same rights in the  UK, and leaving the EU will not magically prevent the arrival of one single ILLEGAL immigrant.  So if that's what concerns you, the EU really is a non-issue as far as immigration goes.

On the more difficult 'democratic deficit' point, there is a stronger argument to be made about at what scale you see yourself as 'represented', but there are politial groupings within the European parliament which function like homegrown parties in bringing voting power to members' concerns.  The mistake is in imagining 'UK MEPs' as a voiceless minority, when in fact UK MEPs have signifcant clout through the groups: Torys find their muscle in the Conservatives and Reformists, Labour through the Socialists and Democrats etc. That 'you' haven't voted for other members in this group is really no different from the domestic constituency system, except from the level of public knowledge of these groups.  The policies and directions of Europe are still going to play a huge role in the UK's future, outside of the EU you just won't have any direct say in it.

[The Legendary Shark]

Don't twist my words (even in jest).

I feel passionately about this subject matter, not least because it has massive potential impact on me and my family. Your casual hand-waving is not helpful and avoids the fact there are very real differences between both camps, even if neither adheres to your impossible dream of some kind of anarchist utopia.

Who said I was jesting?
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I feel passionately about this, too, but differently to you. Sorry if that upsets you.
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[SuperSurfer]

If the UK leaves the EU I wonder if the US is accepting any new states?

Might be a spare place if Hawaii goes its own way.

[Modern Panther]

It's struck me how much the arguments in favour of leaving the EU are similar to the arguments for Scottish independence..

(we'd get a better trading deal from the outside/we put in more than we get out/we can't control our own immigration/its all about sovereignty/we're led by a government we didn't vote for/its undemocratic/it's corrupt/the union was a nice idea, but it doesn't work any more)

...but these points are being made by the same politicians who openly mocked these same arguments coming from their opponents just a couple of years ago.

Frankly, if the EU prevents Michael Gove from doing anything, I can only see that a potentially good thing.  We might be told over and over that the government is being prevented from leading effectively, but bear in mind that what they actually want to do is remove banking regulation, remove human rights legislation, spy on the populace, build over protected environments and cut workers rights. 

Expect it to go the same way as the independence referendum too..."Leave" will make over the top claims about how things will be better, "Stay" will push the fear of change.  In the end, we'll be promised that, if we stay, there will be genuine reform at some point...but no-one will agree what that means.  Then you can expect the rise of the eurosceptic right, as the disgruntled Out voters turn there backs on the traditional two party system.

[IndigoPrime]

I think it's also worth noting that one person's 'scare' is another person's 'realism'. Take the Scottish referendum, for example. At the time, there was entirely justified concern about the reliance of Scotland on oil revenue. Now oil has tanked, and if Scotland was independent under the same circumstances, there's no way it could fulfil the promises outlined by the out campaign without major adjustments (notably to taxation and/or spending).

It's similar now, with Carney's comments. He points out, rightly, that the out vote is a much more dangerous path. This isn't scaremongering—it's just reality. Two years of a frozen economy and then years—perhaps a decade in some cases—of rewriting laws and trying to carve out treaties. And at the end, would we be better off? Even some of the Brexit mob aren't claiming that—they're just saying "at least if we're not, those bally foreigns won't be sticking their noses in".

And that's the problem. It's a jump into the dark, and even the most optimistic outlook has us more or less where we are now, but in a decade and after years of economic nightmare.

[Something Fishy]

I'm taking the view now that if the likes of Duncan-Smith and Gove think something is better, than it sure as hell won't better for the vast majority of us.

Makes in look a much safer bet for the working person.

[JayzusB.Christ]

We're on page 666 of this thread, please note.  And I'm a bit pisht because I've missed my train and went for a couple of pints.

[Professor Bear]

ALL HAIL SATAN.

[The Legendary Shark]

Some people think that hand gesture is the Horns of the Beast. In reality, I think it's more likely that Satan is a Hillary worshipper...

[M.I.K.]

Traditionally, that gesture was protection against the evil eye. Both Gaston Leroux and Ronnie James Dio said so.

[DaveGYNWA]

Point of order: the thumb is sticking out in the Hilary pic, which is not the commonly used 'devil horns' used by those of us of the Metallic persuasion. Thumb in = the Ronnie James Dio-associated sign. I believe that what Hilary is doing is the American sign language for 'I love you'

Carry on!! \m/

[M.I.K.]

You're quite right, of course. The thumb should be in.

Also, if the thumb was out and the forefinger down, it'd be the Hawaiian 'shaka' gesture, as commonly used within the surfing community. </uselessly informative>

[SuperSurfer]

The Beast? Metallica? Ronnie James Dio? I just see:
THWIP

[DaveGYNWA]

You're quite right, of course. The thumb should be in.

Also, if the thumb was out and the forefinger down, it'd be the Hawaiian 'shaka' gesture, as commonly used within the surfing community. </uselessly informative>

Gnarly dude!!!

[Steve Green]

In for me.

EU not without its problems to put it mildly, but the dragged out decoupling, likely indyref 2 and jettisoning of working regulations etc mentioned above seals it for me.

Every time I watch PMQs and the archaic bullshit afforded parliament - the latest being the 'too afraid of satirists to use footage from parliament', they're not exactly winning me over.