Is Judge Dredd a superhero? I get the feeling he's actually not. For a start, it's not clear he's on the right side. Second, he's a member of a police service. He's not a lone vigilante. Dredd is the best judge there is, but he does not have any particular ability that is specific to himself. I would say Dr Who was more a superhero than an alien adventurer. He had the fancy equipment. He basically had superpowers. I would say 007 was more of a superhero than Judge Dredd, because he generally acts as a lone wolf.
Well, none of those characters are superheroes.
Dredd is the protagonist but not the hero. He is the brutal enforcer for a repressive police state.
What elevates him to the heroic is that within that dystopian framework he is entirely incorruptible, dedicated only to duty and responsibility, and would risk his life without hesitation to save an innocent citizen, whether they're a slum-dweller or a millionaire.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 29 August, 2020, 03:12:03 AM
Dredd is the protagonist but not the hero. He is the brutal enforcer for a repressive police state.
Absolutely this.
Just because a character appears in a comic (media / art form) does mean they have any relationship with superheroes (genre).
Quote from: kev67 on 29 August, 2020, 12:47:58 AM
Is Judge Dredd a superhero?
No.
HE IS THE LAW!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTvrLUopM4g
(metal with some swears, so not safe for little juve's ears).
Depends on your use of the word.
Yes, in that he is the titular character of a comic strip.
Yes, in popular culture shorthand.
No, if you actually read the strip.
No, if you require superpowers, ie super- or preternatural abilities.
He's less a superhero than Rambo and just as much a superhero as Batman.
No.
(strictly speaking a "superhero" can only exist in the Marvel or DC universe, as they've a joint trademark on the word, and have litigated in the past to stop other's using it, which is why you'll see non-big-two superheroes referred to as everything from Metahumans, ultrahumans, etc.)
Dredd is a part cyborg, tough lawman.
-pj
—wears an over-elaborate costume
— has a gun that fires magic bullets
— is over 70, and still apparently unbeatable
Superhero.
Bah!
He/s never been killed and resurrec... oh wait.
I'd say no... but. No, in the sense that he's basically a cop, and most of his 'powers' can be hand-waved away by saying 'in the future'. But he does have a foot in the superhero camp when it comes to the costume and his invulnerability when certain writers *cough*Mark Millar*cough* are on the case.
I'd say Johnny Alpha veers closer to superhero territory, what with his magic X-ray eyes. But really Strontium Dog often feels more like a subversion of superhero tropes.
I do not think so he does not fit the criteria "a benevolent fictional character with superhuman powers, such as Superman."
Although if we're going to leap down the rabbithole, where does Batman fit?
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 29 August, 2020, 11:43:58 AM
Although if we're going to leap down the rabbithole, where does Batman fit?
Neatly inside Robin's....
No, I'm better than that.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 29 August, 2020, 01:17:12 PM
Neatly inside Robin's....
... sidecar! No, I have that backwards...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Batcycle_%28Batman_%281966_TV_series%29.jpg/220px-Batcycle_%28Batman_%281966_TV_series%29.jpg)
If Dredd isn't a superhero, then nor is Green Lantern.
Arguing that he's not a hero at all ignores about 90% of all Dredd stories. Daredevil (another crime-fighting blind man with peculiar recuperative abilities and a very silly costume) has probably spent as high a proportion of his comics career doing villain-things as Joe has.
This seems to be tied into the notion that the behaviour of a hero should be aspirational and devoid of wrongdoing, which is a popular but wrongheaded theme in Star Wars fandom these days.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 August, 2020, 12:54:08 AM
Well, none of those characters are superheroes.
I think James Bond is a super hero. John Le Carre's spies are closer to Dredd while Flemmings Bond is closer to Batman, on a comic book scale as I see it-
James Bond (movie versions) is definitely a superhero.
It seems like people are stretching definitions to fit. If you asked someone to go out and buy you a superhero comic, and they came back with a James Bond, Doctor Who or Judge Dredd comic, then they'd have failed in their task (even though your read would probably be better).
++MOON WARNING++MOON WARNING++
When I googled "superhero", the first thing that came up for an image result was this (and, whilst that was surprising, I wasn't baffled by the lack of representation from spies, time-lords or future-cops):
(https://ctl.s6img.com/society6/img/blXCiAES3JVk2Ky721j6VlXbmgs/w_700/prints/~artwork/s6-original-art-uploads/society6/uploads/misc/8dc3af38f5dc4ff0af61e6ed8dcbb0f9/~~/superhero-butts-prints.jpg)
I don't think it's a case of stretching definitions, it's more that the popular understanding of superhero has become incredibly narrow, shrunk down to a handful of samey corporate properties.
Doc Savage, James Bond, Batman, Joe Dredd: all modern or futuristic heroes with superhuman abilities, iconic costumes and world-saving fantastic adventures. I.e. superheroes.
But the popular understanding of a word is the definition of the word because that's how language works.
Much as I might hate it, "literally" is becoming synonymous with "metaphorically".
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - because suggesting that James Bond is superhuman (as opposed to highly trained) is (for me) like suggesting that up is down. Here on my planet the sky is blue.
I would say the best way to describe Dredd and Batman is that they are Peak Human. They're both tough as nails but are also aided by a plethora of gadgetry.
Dredd is a clone of a normal Human and Batman has had some extreme training and has a lot of money. As much as I like the characters I do not regard them as Super Heroes.
Cheers
Well my conclusion from this thread is that nobody knows. Everybody pretty much agrees that Superman is a super hero but after that it is open to debate.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 August, 2020, 07:23:51 PM
But the popular understanding of a word is the definition of the word because that's how language works.
The popular understanding of a word is ONE definition of a word. It's not the only one, or necessarily the best one. Language does of course change, but superhero as a broader term for a fictional character hasn't been retired quite yet.
The James Bond in the movies isn't 'highly trained' - he literally (heh) performs multiple superhuman feats in almost every movie. No human could do these things; indeed i understand nobody does it half as good as him.
Genrewise Bond movies are of course spy/action movies, but I honestly can't see the screen character as anything but a superhero.
Quote from: NapalmKev on 29 August, 2020, 07:39:52 PM
I would say the best way to describe Dredd and Batman is that they are Peak Human. They're both tough as nails but are also aided by a plethora of gadgetry.
I dunno man, I'd argue that no grade of human could ever do what Batman and Dredd do every few weeks. The fact that they don't ascribe their abilities to some special 'power' doesn't alter what I see on the page: superhuman abilities.
For me, the split comes down to believability. If heroic characters, who supposedly live in the same physical universe as us, do or survive things regularly that I can't believe anyone could do, they aren't a hero, they're a superhero.
I acrept that the term has shrunk to generally mean only the spandex brigade, but I still struggle to think of a better term for heroes with superhuman abilities.
But perhaps the more useful distinction might be that people IN Dredd's world, or Bond's, or even Batman's, don't consider their abilities to be superhuman - maybe that's a fairer reference point than mine as a reader.
No.
James Bond has never done anything superhuman. He routinely does things which are quite implausible, which is par for the course in action films. That doesn't make him a superhero, and if it did, then the term superhero would be so broad as to become almost pointless, as it would then include the lead in every action film.
Similarly, Dredd doesn't have superpowers. He can't fly, see through walls, read minds, shoot lasers from his eyes, or do any of the things that superheroes do. He has some advanced weapons and technology, because he lives in the future, but it's all the same equipment that is routinely issued to thousands of his colleagues.
Whether he is a hero or not varies according to the story he's in. He was a hero in The Cursed Earth, but not in Revolution.
Surely the first thing to do is define "superhero".
Then you can see if Dredd fits the definition.
Personally I always thought to be a superhero the character had to have abilities beyond what a normal person has or could have. There has to be an element of the "supernatural" to it. Not in the "horror" genre definition, but in terms of something way beyond what training or physical or mental conditioning could give you.
And by that definition just doing implausible things doesn't count.
So no Dredd isn't a superhero. And James Bond isn't either.
And to be clear nor are Batman or Ironman.
But really that definition isn't sufficient, because for example Johnny Alpha and Cassandra Anderson would be superheroes based on that. And IMO they aren't.
Frankly for me 2000AD doesn't have any superheroes. Not even Zenith. It's a different genre.
Quote from: kev67 on 29 August, 2020, 12:47:58 AM
Is Judge Dredd a superhero?
(https://e-caremanagement.com/wp-content/uploads/can_small.jpg)
I always find the "Batman's not a superhero" arguments hilarious - sometimes put forward by people who like Batman but who don't want to admit to liking the genre. He's a costumed billionaire vigilante who fights crime with the aid of spectacular gadgets and an array of skills, talents and abilities no single individual could ever actually possess in real life. If Batman's not a superhero, no-one is.
I suspect the actual modern definition of superhero is the entirely circular "costumed hero who originally appeared in superhero comic or movie". It has little to do with characteristics of the character.
The distinction I apply in my sad lonely brain is "fictional hero who can do things no real human could do", or if I'm being reflective and fancy excluding Judge Dredd "fictional hero who can do things no ordinary person in that fictional setting could do".
Perhaps the missing term, as Richard suggests, is Action Hero, swapping 'impossible' for 'implausible'. Although I'd still contend that in aggregate movie Bond does things that go WAY beyond implausible.
In his screenwiting course, John Truby defines an action hero (or any classical hero) as a person who can do things ordinary people can't.
As to superhero, if the Six Million Dollar Man is a superhero, then Dredd's bionic eyes might shift him closer to this category.
However, as Dredd isn't really a hero perhaps we should consider him either a superbastard or an action bastard. I think action bastard best describes old Joe...
I think Watchmen is instructive here. Only Dr Manhatten clearly had superhuman powers. All the others were just very good at fighting, very intelligent, very resolved or had a lot of highly engineered equipment. Ozymandius, iirc was the most intelligent man on Earth, as well as the fastest. He seemed to be the best fighter. Basically, he's a superhero, and the others are, sort of. Rorshach had a phrase, 'costumed hero'. Dredd wears a helmet not a mask. We can always see half his face. Often the superhero wears a mask because he is protecting a secret identity, but we get to see what they look like in their daily lives. Their costume otoh expresses their individual identity. This is the opposite to Dredd. He has no secret identity and he wears a uniform, not a costume, because he is only one member of a large force.
I've always been rather partial to Garth Ennis' summation of Dredd as: "A Bastard with a big gun." (If I'm recalling that rightly?)
And welcome back, Sharky!
If we define a superhero as someone who wears their knickers on the outside, then Dredd clearly doesn't qualify. However the Stallone version wears a codpiece, which is kind of a similar aesthetic, so Stallone's Dredd clearly is.
Glad I could clear that up..
Since we're having this debate, I'll wade in with the contention that my idea of a superhero very much includes 'motivaetd by doing good, and has an unnatural ability to ecnounter and tackle wrongdoers with nary a hint that this wrongdoer is anything other than BAD. Basically the hero part is as crucial as the 'super' part (which to me just means has some special ability or other, whether that is unlimited wealth, great cunning or superior fightin skillz - or supernatural/magic whatnot)
Watchmen is one of the most successful (if by no means the first) example of writers exploring what happens if people you think of as superheores are in fact motivated by other priniciples, or simply wrong in their conception of who is a baddie. (e.g. Ozymandias wants to save the world, but cares little for individuals; Rorschach is basically a racist nutter who labels whole sections of sociewty as bad; the comedian is a sociopath, and Niteowl is as much motivated by sexy times in leather as he is in doing good.)
Dredd, like also law officers, is clearly following orders / doing his job as often as not, so is at best to the side of this view of a hero, although I for one think he is super.
Quote from: kev67 on 30 August, 2020, 10:49:47 AM
He has no secret identity and he wears a uniform, not a costume, because he is only one member of a large force.
Like Green Lantern, you mean?
And yay, the Legendary One returns, our very own superhero!
I remember being somewhat disgruntled as a kid to find Dredd in a Superhero-themed wordsearch. He's a copper, is the way i see it. Just, like Columbo, a very good one.
And yeah - welcome back, Sharky.
Thank you, gents :)
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 30 August, 2020, 10:20:02 AM
In his screenwiting course, John Truby defines an action hero (or any classical hero) as a person who can do things ordinary people can't.
As to superhero, if the Six Million Dollar Man is a superhero, then Dredd's bionic eyes might shift him closer to this category.
However, as Dredd isn't really a hero perhaps we should consider him either a superbastard or an action bastard. I think action bastard best describes old Joe...
I am quite interested in Dredd's bionic eyes. Are those the reason he doesn't like taking his helmet off? I wasn't reading 2000AD back in the 70s or 80s when he got those. Are Dredd's eyes just replacements for his natural eyes or do they allow him superhuman sight? I have never read him using superhuman vision. Perhaps they enable him to read text without reading glasses, which would be superhuman for someone his age. Concerning his age, Dredd did undergo a rejuve job after Necropolis, but I thought that he was ordered to that because he had had his face burnt off after he had been exiled to the Cursed Earth. I did wonder how rejuve jobs could fix facial disfigurement like that. Do rejuve jobs also rejuvenate bodies?
Quote from: kev67 on 30 August, 2020, 04:26:54 PM
I am quite interested in Dredd's bionic eyes.
Dredd and Anderson (in our 1984, but their 2106) went into the future (in the mini-epic City of the Damned) to investigate Owen Krysler's prediction of doom in the year 2120. During that adventure a big monster poked Dredd's eyes out.
On his return to 2106 he was given bionic eyes. They mostly don't come up and are really just very good eye replacements, as opposed to giving him any super-special powers.
As with most technological marvels, the writers don't tend to get too concrete on abilities because you can end up writing yourself into a corner. So, lie detectors don't always work (or aren't always mentioned), bionic eye abilities aren't concretely defined, rejuvenation isn't explained beyond a vague narrative and so on. It's more like Dredd's old but he's doing okay because ... *waves hands in a mystical fashion* ... technology.
There's a more recent (than Necropolis) Meg one-off* where Dredd is in some magic tank that peels off and regrows his skin.
*edit: The Carousel, Meg 375
**edit: And, to answer your question about helmet removal - that came way before the eyes and was just some fundamental aspect that (IIRC) Wagner decided on.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 30 August, 2020, 04:44:45 PM
Quote from: kev67 on 30 August, 2020, 04:26:54 PM
I am quite interested in Dredd's bionic eyes.
To answer your question about helmet removal - that came way before the eyes and was just some fundamental aspect that (IIRC) Wagner decided on.
As far as I'm aware the
Non-Removal of Helmet was meant to enforce the idea that Dredd is The Law personified. Although this has been taken to extremes in some stories, [spoiler]Dredd wearing his Helmet while taking a bath[/spoiler] being a case in point.
Veering across the road and into the fast lane of
'Back on Topic', sort of.
If costumes are a criteria does that make The Punisher a Super Hero? He has his fancy
Skull Shirt and loves to murder people. It's a similar story with Batman, sans killing. People driven to nigh on insane levels of rage who are willing to dish out justice as they see fit.
Who Knows? I like reading comics regardless - it's not meant to be taken too seriously...Except on the Internet of course ;)
Cheers
Dredd didn't actually wear his helmet in the bath, you just didn't see his face because it was always just off the edge of the panel.
Quote from: Richard on 30 August, 2020, 05:35:25 PM
Dredd didn't actually wear his helmet in the bath, you just didn't see his face because it was always just off the edge of the panel.
[spoiler]There's a story featuring The Angel Gang and Satan where the
Hooved One himself gives the gang three wishes. Means' wish is that Dredd appears in their Cube, which he does. With his Helmet on and a back-scrubber in hand which he uses to beat the shit out of everyone.[/spoiler]
Cheers
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/90/47/ac904798841b67390a140ff1f15ea7fd.jpg)
I definitely put costumed vigilante's into the superhero bucket - the thing that sorts it in my mind is one of genre and presentation. Batman is definitely a superhero because he wears a cape, he's got special (technology-driven) powers, a secret identity and ... he's in superhero comics.
It was a such a fetching cape.
(http://www.multiversitycomics.com/wp-content/themes/mvc/images/timthumb.php?src=http://multiversitystatic.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2015/03/luna-1-judge-marshall.jpg&q=95&w=593&zc=1&a=t)
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 August, 2020, 01:55:41 PM
Quote from: kev67 on 30 August, 2020, 10:49:47 AM
He has no secret identity and he wears a uniform, not a costume, because he is only one member of a large force.
Like Green Lantern, you mean?
And yay, the Legendary One returns, our very own superhero!
I am unfamiliar with the Green Lantern. I had to look him up on Wikipedia. Alright, he is a member of a cosmic force of good enforcers, but from what I understand, he is the only one in the sector that includes Earth. I suppose he has to answer to higher authorities, but he is also allowed a lot of discretion as to how best handle local contingencies, like a marshal in a western territory.
That sounds like a fair summary (although there always seems to be a ridiculous number of Lanterns knocking about Space Sector 2814 at any one time).
I should probably clarify that I'm just having a bit of fun with this hoary old argument, and fully accept that Dredd isn't a superhero by the current conventional understanding of the term (if not some more obscure others), but I do think there is an important distinction to be drawn between a fictional hero who has normal if remarkable abilities (Morse came up earlier, for example, even Holmes - or maybe even John McClane [in Die Hards 1-3] and John Rambo [in First Blood Parts 1 and maybe 2], and a clone who can survive being shot/stabbed/be blown up several dozen times, be crucified a few times, have all his skin burned off and and his eyes gouged out, die at least once, and still be relied upon to beat the crap out of multiple armed and trained assailants in his late 70s (at best) while also being a brilliant detective, tactician, marksman, top-notch armourer, acrobat, chain-snapping strongman, non-fiction author and stickler.
The term 'future cop protaganist' seems a bit, well, inadequate.
Holmes in the modern series (starring Bumblesnuff Crimpysnitch) is definitely super-powered. He has meta-cognition, a mind palace and *something* preternatural to explain the conclusion of "The Reichenbach Fall".
I try not to think about the Benegessarit Cabbagepatch version. I started out mildly curious and ended up utterly loathing it. So many very talented folk, such mediocre directionless drivel. (See also: much of NuWho). It says a lot that I much prefer the RDjr incarnation, which has the great advantage of being fun.
I also gave the Bennyhill Bandersnatch version a go but then lost interest. I've tried all the NuWho's, but can't really get into it - same with NuTrek. I assumed I was too old to enjoy threat-of-the-week sci-fi, but then I've been watching some of Star Trek TOS, and it's just as compelling as ever. (Even if, by today's standards, verging on sexual assault in almost every episode.)
I should give the Bobby Downer Junior version of Hemlock Bones a go, but I'm still in a huff with him about getting in a huff with Krishnan off C4 News.
---
Is Spock a superhero?
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 August, 2020, 03:42:47 AM
I should give the Bobby Downer Junior version of Hemlock Bones a go, but I'm still in a huff with him about getting in a huff with Krishnan off C4 News.
It's quite good as far as Guy Ritchie movies go....
In the RDJ version Sherlock is an action hero. What I found lacking was the actual sleuthing. Which is what I want from a Sherlock movie. There is more detective work in the BC version.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 August, 2020, 03:42:47 AM
Is Spock a superhero?
Kurtzman has enough bad ideas for NuTrek already, don't be giving him any more
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 August, 2020, 03:42:47 AM
Is Spock a superhero?
You have to give Leonard Nimoy credit for bigging up his character. In the pilot episode he was an alien. The cold, logical person was one of the female crew members. When the series started, the woman was gone and Spock got the emotionless, logical persona. Then there was an episode in which he had to knock someone out with a heavy object. Nimoy thought this unVulcanlike and invented the Vulcan nerve pinch. Then there was that episode where that silicon-based, mattress-looking lifeform was offing miners on some mining planet. Spock mind-melded with the thing, so it turned out he was telepathic too.
Did anyone else try the Vulcan nerve pinch at school? I could never get it to work.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 August, 2020, 03:42:47 AM
Is Spock a superhero?
Prime Spock is not (based on the fact that his universe views his legacy primarily as that of an ambassador and peacemaker, not a superstrong telepathic polymath) Kelvin Timeline Spock probably is.
I agree that RobDowJun Holmes is a quipping action hero and not really Holmes at all, but the advantage it has over Benjenstark Commonplace is that everyone involved understands this and commits to it, and thus the running, punching , exploding and punning are actually brisk and entertaining.
I'm a superhero for making it through 4 pages of this.
True grit!
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 August, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
True grit!
Was Rooster (https://youtu.be/n0-V7s0B-8Q) Cogburn (https://youtu.be/wdAXjMj6mfU) a superhero?
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 August, 2020, 04:43:34 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 August, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
True grit!
Was Rooster (https://youtu.be/n0-V7s0B-8Q) Cogburn (https://youtu.be/wdAXjMj6mfU) a superhero?
I set 'em up...
But yes, yes he was.
Quote from: pauljholden on 29 August, 2020, 10:53:49 AM
Bah!
He/s never been killed and resurrec... oh wait.
JD? Or JC?
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 August, 2020, 10:24:21 PM
The James Bond in the movies isn't 'highly trained' - he literally (heh) performs multiple superhuman feats in almost every movie. No human could do these things; indeed i understand nobody does it half as good as him.
It makes me feel bad for the rest.