Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?

[IndigoPrime]

while Baddiel flat-out refused to even acknowledge his routines featuring blackface and mental health slurs [...] even now he just dismisses it as "a shutdown tactic" to ask him if he thinks blackface is wrong

I wasn't aware of that, but that's disappointing from Baddiel. Matt Lucas seems to have a better handle on this, essentially acknowledging how much of Little Britain is no longer OK (and that at the time wasn't either, but was driven by arrogance). I have less time for Walliams, whose children's books are racist and classist abominations that I have on good knowledge he does little more than 'direct' these days.

[JayzusB.Christ]

it seems to be acceptable to post 'all men are trash'

The problem is that this kind of phrase very often tends to be used and amplified by white men. The attempt is to weaponise such phrases and normalise the claim that raging feminists hate all men and think all men are awful. Feminism at its core is literally about equality.

I have to admit, I had a girlfriend in my younger days whose feminism went as far as saying women were superior to men - 'they have a lot more to offer', in her words.  This kind of thing again just got my hackles up and made me point out the likes of Thatcher and Queen Victoria, who weren't exactly paragons of social justice.  But I suppose hers was an understandable reaction to centuries of being marginalised, even if I didn't agree.  Which, of course, doesn't mean I don't agree with absolute equality between men and women.  (She also believed that anyone who looks at porn 'despises' women - that's pretty much every man I know, and quite a few women too.)

I did see a lot of 'if you vote Leave you're a c**t' stuff leading up to the vote.  That's just not helpful

Fair point.  Look where the 'basket of deplorables' comment got us.

[IndigoPrime]

As we age, I guess we recognise few positions are absolutes, but also that there are people within any movement that become entrenched and then extreme. Most feminists I know pretty much want equality. End of. Some will occasionally lash out or say snarky stuff about men. But, as you say, that's understandable from the point of view of people who are still marginalised in a society that often doesn't recognise that, or assumes that all the work has been done when we're only a smallish way through the process.

[repoman]

it seems to be acceptable to post 'all men are trash'

The problem is that this kind of phrase very often tends to be used and amplified by white men. The attempt is to weaponise such phrases and normalise the claim that raging feminists hate all men and think all men are awful. Feminism at its core is literally about equality. The majority of those against it don't like that because they don't want to lose their built-in advantage. (Or, heaven forbid, boys actually start reading about or watching shows with girls some of the time. Hell, look at the massive shitstorm that happened with Star Wars when they cast four leads, one being a woman and one being black. How will we ever survive now only half of the series leads are white men?)

Really not looking to pick a fight here I promise!  But that kind of reads like the prevalence of the phrase 'all men are trash' is somehow the fault of white men.  I mean am I doing it right now?

The problem to me, from an equality point of view, is that a number of women are using the phrase very casually and often.  I've certainly seen a lot more of that stuff retweeted in support on my timeline than I ever have seen white men retweeting it angrily.  Which is hopefully an indication that my Twitter feed is more left leaning but even so.

I agree with your definition of feminism there, Indy.  Does that mean people saying 'all men are trash' aren't feminists?  What are they then?  Female sexists?  Sorry this is a bit of a stream of consciousness, but I'm genuinely trying to work it out.

I mean even the fact that you picked out white there seems a bit odd when race isn't in those four words. 

That said I'm the trifecta when it comes to being a mad oppressor of people as I'm white, male and, worst of all, from London (originally).  All of which seem to be sticks to beat you with.  But like I said, I don't vote Tory, I voted to remain, I listen to Fugazi and Propaghandi, my favourite comedian is Stewart Lee and I often bake salted caramel brownies for my elderly neighbours just because.  So I'm pretty sure I'm not a right wing monster.  And I don't think people on the dole should have CRTs unless it's to play ZX Spectrum games on.

[IndigoPrime]

But that kind of reads like the prevalence of the phrase 'all men are trash' is somehow the fault of white men.  I mean am I doing it right now?

That's not entirely what I mean. To expand on this, you very often hear it from people who get an unrepresentative time in media, who sit at the other end of the extreme. They seek to paint all feminists as man-haters to marginalise the movement, when the reality is it's only a small and noisy part of that movement who are like that. This them normalises such thinking to the point it ends up as common thinking. That's not healthy for anyone who 1) wants more equality and progressiveness, and 2) is at the very least reasonable and open in their own thinking.

I agree with your definition of feminism there, Indy.  Does that mean people saying 'all men are trash' aren't feminists?  What are they then?  Female sexists?  Sorry this is a bit of a stream of consciousness, but I'm genuinely trying to work it out.

I guess it depends on one's interpretation of things. Mine is the classic equality line; it's not about one-upping someone else. Once someone's feminism strays into "we want our turn now", then that's deeply unhelpful; but it's also not mainstream thinking anyway. But also, we must be careful when aligning experiences to our own if we're part of the (relatively) entitled and privileged sector of society.

I mean even the fact that you picked out white there seems a bit odd when race isn't in those four words.

Well, that's because that's where the majority of this stuff initially stems from. Most media is owned by white men. The people who control the majority of the world's richest companies and nations are white men. They ultimately control the agenda, and are deeply influential in general thinking. I mean, we're even at the point now where men—perfectly decent men—literally cannot recognise balance. There have been scientific experiments on this, sometimes even involving scientists. They'll time how long women speak in lectures, and ask people to guess percentages. Men invariably massively overestimate the amount of time women speak for, and align any assertiveness with being over-emotional or aggressive (whereas when men do the same, it's a sign of strength).

In media, women are much more likely to be shown in revealing clothing, but are far less likely to be present. There were those shocking figures from Geena Davis's research that found crowd scenes in movies had, on average, 17% women in them, and are generally shown on-screen around 30% of the time. Society is roughly 50/50. And yet men will—again when presented with imagery—consider scenes roughly equal when there's massive disparity, and think there are too many women when a scene is literally split evenly. I see the same issue in everything from games to children's books. These things are all very pervasive societal problems that point at a greater issue we must all address.

Hence, I do try where possible to avoid the noise and the shouty elements, and put my weight behind those genuinely fighting for any kind of equality. And it doesn't really matter which. I've been slammed online for getting annoyed about things like gender disparity in clothing and toys. "People are fighting wars, you twat" was one memorable response. But the human race can cope with multiple issues; and just because there are big things to fight for, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for the smaller things, nor that the smaller things—as noted above—aren't often a hint at bigger societal issues.

And I don't think people on the dole should have CRTs unless it's to play ZX Spectrum games on.

ZX Spectrum? Now you've gone too far. Everyone knows the C64 was the best.

[The Legendary Shark]

Men are, historically, victims of discrimination too, being the disposable sex. It's men who get forced into uniform to go off and fight, men who are expected to do all the dangerous jobs like mining or firefighting, men who are expected to suffer and sacrifice. When the ship begins to sink the cry goes up, "women and children first!"

Is it wrong of me to think that this is okay? I mean, if women want to work as soldiers, firefighters, or miners, or shout "men and children first!" as the ship goes down then that's also fine by me. Equality is equality, after all.

Further, some women complain about men treating them as sex objects. I agree with those women wholeheartedly - but how many women think it's perfectly fine to treat men as success objects? This also has been going on for a long time; for example, "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife."

But yeah, equality - I'm a big fan of that. Equality goes both ways, though, and to me means simply treating each individual as an individual and not a representative of some abstract group.

[IndigoPrime]

Be mindful those rules were codified and designed by men, who unilaterally decided (in most countries—not all) that women should not—or even could not—do those things. It's also worth being mindful that the origins and even usage of women and children first are not nearly as clear-cut as you might think.

[Barrington Boots]

A lot of whataboutery creeping into this discussion.

[Tjm86]

So one of my personal concerns around the BLM events of the summer is that it generated some discomfort around the idea of 'white privelage'.  To me it felt like there was a generalisation that if you are white, male and middle aged then you have better chances.

Well, in some senses you literally do. For a start, in the USA, where this all originated, you are significantly less likely to be shot and killed by the police. (Similarly, in the UK, black people are far more likely to be stopped and searched.) [ ... ]

Much of the pushback against BLM and similar movements is white people not wishing to lose their privilege, and very often wealthy white men doing what they always do and setting everyone else against each other. Heck, look at that in the UK. Rich white arseholes are laughing all the way to the bank because the managed to create a vicious culture war from a subject that barely anyone remotely cared about ten years ago (the EU).

Fair point, and one that I did acknowledge albeit not very clearly.  To call the way that white working class groups have been treated through history 'oppression' to the same extent as other ethnic groups have experienced it is trivialising their experience.

My thing is though that when you look at who has generally been involved in perpetrating these injustices, they have to some extent been 'equally opportunity oppressors' in the sense that they actually don't care to some extent.  So long as they and their ilk are looked after they don't care who they trample on.

Hannah Arendt's analysis of British Imperialism makes for interesting reading as part of this debate.  Maybe there is a case to be made that many of us have become unwitting participants in this issue as we've bought into the exploitation.  There are parallels to be draw with the referendum campaign and its focus on immigration, emphasising the impact of migrant workers whilst glossing over the fact that it is 'rich white arseholes' exploiting wage disparities that is the real issue.

Maybe there is 'whataboutery' here.  Then again, if it is engaged with and evaluated ...

[Funt Solo]

On feminism: one half of my broken family revolved around a strong feminism movement in Glasgow.  I remember one poster clearly: "Today's male chauvinist pig is tomorrow's rindless back bacon". My step-mum (or, rather, dad's partner - because at that point in time they had both disavowed marriage) worked for Women's Aid, and her and her best pal would discuss ideas like "a world without men", and if it was technically possible. But they weren't insane, and didn't really want a world without men - they were just furious about systemic injustice.

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On people taking it too far (on the left). Yes, okay, some people do talk shit. My dad used to tell teenage me that I shouldn't read 2000 AD because it was clearly "ideologically unsound". When I asked for details, it was pointed out that there were phallic symbols all over it, and it glorified violence. I remember asking my dad if he really believed the artists were thinking about erect penises when doing the art. Years later, I asked that question on this board and some artists said that yes, they were. Ha!

Anyway, I didn't stop reading. Although, my dad had a bit of a point about the phallic stuff...



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On representation of women in media: this is something that's concerned me a lot more since my daughter was born. In just very practical terms, there's the attempt to find stories with positive female role models in the lead. Of course, those exist, but it's been interesting sifting through vast swathes of male-led media to find them.

Unprompted, she pointed out two glittery princess types that were attached to some promotional thing the other day, and decried their fashion choices. She told me that if you wore clothes like that and were obsessed with your appearance then you wouldn't be able to do any of the things she enjoys doing - biking, jumping into the hedge and so on. You'd be so worried about messing things up. (Basically, her rendition of that Tank Girl monologue from Deadline about the treehouse.)

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On the "equality for all" argument: this sounds good on paper, but can sometimes be used negatively. Example: the "all lives matter" or "blue lives matter" movements.  They're both code for "black lives don't matter", even when, on the face of it, they seem like fair statements. Context is king. Abandon context, and you abandon reason.

[repoman]

yep, context is important but I will say that attempts to provide it aren't usually received with open ears.

Again, look at the 'all men are trash' thing.  It spawned the whole 'not all men' meme thing and then attempts to provide context there were decried as 'mansplaining' and any frustration at the whole thing is see as the 'fragile male ego' or being a gammon.

All of that has become fairly common language recently.   But that all seems to be fair game and will result in a fair bit of mental gymnastics to if not justify it then at least deny its effect.

I don't know what it's like to raise a young girl, I don't have kids, so I imagine that will affect anyone's perspective on this whole thing too.   

Funt/Indy - do either of you have boys as well?

[The Legendary Shark]

What's the alternative? "Equality for some"? We already have that and it's really not my cup of synth.

However, is equality even possible amongst a species like ours, which includes individuals with a wide range of strengths and flaws? Practically, in the real world, I guess equality doesn't matter much - a short person, for example, is at a disadvantage when confronted with a high shelf but not so much when faced with tight spaces. Practical equality in the physical world, then, would seem to be impossible.

It's partly our illusions into which equality must be injected; media, legislation, religion, etc. If we can somehow bake equality into these illusions of ours then, eventually, it will become as real as belief in the BBC, the government, and God. Of course, I hate this suggestion because it reinforces the idea that equality can only be bestowed the ruling classes, which is anathema to me.

Or we could just learn to treat one another with basic respect. Because, in the end, isn't that what equality is about?

[IndigoPrime]

There are parallels to be draw with the referendum campaign and its focus on immigration, emphasising the impact of migrant workers whilst glossing over the fact that it is 'rich white arseholes' exploiting wage disparities that is the real issue.

Emotion vs facts is part of the problem. Humans aren't really designed for logic. We are utterly shit at overcoming immediacy bias and thinking about the long term. It is trivially easy (as we've seen) to have half a country turn on 'others', without realising they are happily giving away swathes of their own rights, in order to, what, stop people who per capita fed more into the tax system than natives and frequently started up companies that employed Brits? Go us.

it was pointed out that there were phallic symbols all over it, and it glorified violence

To be fair to your dad, 2000 AD has long had—and still has—problems with representation. I'm not sure how that'll ever be fixed, nor whether it's really possible. Editorial's attempts to get more women and BAME creators involved is a start. Eradicating male gaze will be likely impossible, but making writers and artists aware of it would be a start. That today we still very frequently see Dredd stories where the only female judges are Psis (and if there are no Psis, all the judges are men) is just staggering.

In just very practical terms, there's the attempt to find stories with positive female role models in the lead.

For me, it's more than that. It's that you quite often have stories where female characters just don't exist. It's not just the positive role model, but the entire existence of women. That's why I'm so happy The Beano's previous editor heavily pivoted key characters. Dennis—in hindsight, a bullying arsehole as recently as half a decade ago, and very much of the URGH GIRLS brigade—is now a smart, streetwise kid with the mix of friends that makes sense in modern Britain. Walter's gone from some very troubling portrayals to a conniving little shit, who wants to make things not fun for everyone, backed by his evil mayoral father. Elsewhere, we have Rubi and JJ, although the latter's now somewhat marginalised. Still: progress.

(In books, the same is true. Not only do you have wade through boys-only nonsense, but also minimise stereotypical shite that gets old very quickly. Fortunately, mini-IP is a voracious reader, and so we get through books at speed, and we've discovered authors who subvert themes and have fun with tropes.)

She told me that if you wore clothes like that and were obsessed with your appearance then you wouldn't be able to do any of the things she enjoys doing

Fuck, yeah! Go, mini-Solo! And she's right. But that goes further, too. We had a local councillor who wanted to ban girls from wearing anything but dresses to school, because girls should "look like girls". Beyond the obvious issues there in the sense of defining what a gender should wear (and, erm, what girls should wear on their legs), there's that prescriptive bullshit that blocks girls having fun.

Uniforms still tend towards boys playing rough and climbing trees, whereas girls should sit in the corner. When at mini-IP's pre-school a couple of years back, the boys were tearing around like arseholes, while the teacher simpered that "boys will be boys". No, they're taught FROM THAT AGE that they can get away with that hit, and that the girls should put up with being bullied out of their toys. That might sound petty, but it's this attitude that then extends to youth and young adulthood, with boys thinking they are 'entitled' to things they are not. Issues of equality, consent, and boys not being 'above' girls in the pecking order need to be baked in from a young age, and girls shouldn't be made to feel that they must be quiet and not do all the things you mentioned above.

decried as 'mansplaining'

You're not wrong, but... Any look at a prominent woman's Twitter feed will show the shit they have to deal with versus men. Any comment is pulled apart. Any experience is denied or put right by men. My wife used to have fun with this at uni. She would make a point and be ignored by a tutor. Eventually, a male friend recognised men would then say something identical and get credit. So he started doing it, every single time, and the pair of them would laugh their arses off when the tutor would tell him what a great idea he'd had. The tutor didn't get it. He had no awareness of what he was doing (but did at one point separate my wife and her friend, because she was 'disrupting the sessions').

Funt/Indy - do either of you have boys as well?

Not here. One girl and that's our lot. And it's an eye-opener to see how the world is. One example: my wife and daughter were once in Sainsbury's. I don't recall how old mini-IP was—about 3. Some old fucker kept distracting her, and the reason was this: she wasn't smiling for him. My wife got angry and he took great offence. He was "being nice". My wife noted he was distracting a toddler in a busy store, who was content and just minding her own business and trying to ensure she was always with her mum. He just wanted a little girl to smile. It became all about him, like it so often does.

This hasn't been a one-off. My kid is now 6 and has been subject to sexism on a number of occasions. Now, she also happens to be somewhat aware of it as well. I'm glad she's pretty tough and forthright, but I can now more than ever see why by the time women get to adulthood, some of them are ready to fucking explode. I would be if the same kind of shit was hurled at me all the time. (Related: all the stories my wife has told me about ongoing sexism and other shit hurled her way, which added to post-2016 anti-foreigner bullshit at her work and elsewhere just makes me want to scream. And all of that, without exception, came from white men.)

[IndigoPrime]

Or we could just learn to treat one another with basic respect. Because, in the end, isn't that what equality is about?

That and equality in the sense of making relevant opportunity as open and even as possible. So: not routinely paying women less for the same job. Not routinely giving black people higher sentences for drug crimes than white people. And so on.

There are of course some things in which equality is impossible—tasks where a physical requirement is essential. But then that's life. But those things should be recognised outliers, not the norm.

[repoman]

And all of that, without exception, came from white men.)

Doesn't mean that 'white' and 'men' are necessarily the problem. 

I've witnessed plenty of that sort of stuff from women.  The majority of my career has been in offices with large numbers of women and most of my bosses in the last 25+ years have been women, so as a result most of the bad stuff I've encountered at work has been from women.

But plenty of nice, supportive women too.  That's society though.   Some people are nice, some aren't.

Some workplaces are toxic but believe me that isn't a white male thing exclusively.