Prog 2223 - The Root Of All Evil

[TordelBack]

Mm. I very much miss the 'Horned God and before' Mills. That for me was his zenith. After that point, it felt like the conspiracy/ideology overtook the ideas. Worst of all, some of the strips—like ABC Warriors—just became boring.

Very happy to vociferously disagree on this one!  Defoe is one of the best strips of the new century, Savage not far behind. Both reinvented themselves completely every 2 books or so, Defoe in particular going out on a high. I loved the return of Flesh, for all that the last book was a disappointment. And the Return to...  series of ABC Warriors were a treat (although I agree that the strip has otherwise run out of steam, as it really only has one story to tell: Warriors fight each other and break-up,  Warriors get back together to fight lovingly-designed Mirror-Warriors).

My feelings on Sláine hardly need yet another airing, but if I'm the target audience, I've been very excited by the direction since Book of Scars.

And at the risk of being lynched, American Reaper is a good read in large chunks. And this is something that is true of Sláine too.

In fact, as long as Pat stays away from Dredd (not a fan), I'd be more than happy to see something from him every week.

[Leigh S]

With Red, it's a balance though - think Dexter - would that series work if he was a Serial Killer who occasionally killed bad people (spoilers - I only watched a few epsidoes along time back, so not sure if that is actually a good summation of it!)

Morally, she is shady in the first place, sure - by that level, Alpha is shady, given he is happy to go wth Dead (and has a higher death count than Dredd!).  If she is a fairly unrepentant killer (as in, she takes few steps to stop "the urge" taking out any passer by) then where is the sympathy or tragedy?  Why should we be rooting for her or indeed why would the cop try to let her escape?


Vex, I agree, the framing is trying to pull a similar trick to Dante,  but for whatever reason just doesnt have the balance right.  Certainly happy to see more, but it needs to hook me on the narrative not just the DnD Manual word building

Red as killer of innocents works for me, but only if we were to make this a rare and forced occurrence where something went terribly wrong with her usual plan to feast on wrong uns.

Oddly enough, I've read through the entire original Ezquerra-illustrated Stront run now in my Rebellion+Hachette re-read and, well, it's not like she was particularly picky before. In one case, she murders a prisoner Alpha captured. Elsewhere, she's shown as _almost_ overstepping the mark. So all we're getting now is a less sanitised version of the character (which is quite ironic, given how many readers—or possibly ex-readers—of a certain type argue the modern Prog has been neutered).

As for Vex, it feels a little like a strip trying to use similar historical narrative devices as Nikolai Dante. But it doesn't quite stick the landing for me. I'm not sure why, but it feels like it perhaps needed one more run-through from an editing standpoint. Even so, it's good to see something new and inventive and that makes me want to read more rather than hanker for old strips.

[Leigh S]

Yeah, that's my take on Pat's output - still more hits than misses, Defoe being a particular gem in all its various incarnations

Mm. I very much miss the 'Horned God and before' Mills. That for me was his zenith. After that point, it felt like the conspiracy/ideology overtook the ideas. Worst of all, some of the strips—like ABC Warriors—just became boring.

Very happy to vociferously disagree on this one!  Defoe is one of the best strips of the new century, Savage not far behind. Both reinvented themselves completely every 2 books or so, Defoe in particular going out on a high. I loved the return of Flesh, for all that the last book was a disappointment. And the Return to...  series of ABC Warriors were a treat (although I agree that the strip has otherwise run out of steam, as it really only has one story to tell: Warriors fight each other and break-up,  Warriors get back together to fight lovingly-designed Mirror-Warriors).

My feelings on Sláine hardly need yet another airing, but if I'm the target audience, I've been very excited by the direction since Book of Scars.

And at the risk of being lynched, American Reaper is a good read in large chunks. And this is something that is true of Sláine too.

In fact, as long as Pat stays away from Dredd (not a fan), I'd be more than happy to see something from him every week.

[broodblik]

I just like the way each episode in Vex was revealing more of the world. Shedding all the layers as the story progressed. World building at its best. My understanding is that Carroll will star writing the third series.

[IndigoPrime]

Very happy to vociferously disagree on this one!

Horses for courses, I suppose. I've tried to get into Defoe a few times, but it just hasn't clicked. I have time for Savage. ABC Warriors always feels like recycling. I like the old Flesh, albeit in a nostalgic way. (It's very of its time.) The new one didn't gel with me at all. I'll likely revisit, but am not expecting to change my mind.

Sláine, as I've said, is one of those strips that felt like it had a glorious rebirth with the Invasions arc, bar what they did to Niamh. (I realise Matt Smith took the 'blame' for that one, but I imagine Mills could have argued the toss—I understand he got his way about everything else in script matters.) I really liked Brutania #1, which for me felt like a kind of Hellboy take on Sláine, going heavy on the myth and mystery. But then it all devolved into shouty nonsense. I'll eventually hit that on my Hachette re-read and hope it's better in a single volume rather than weekly.

If she is a fairly unrepentant killer (as in, she takes few steps to stop "the urge" taking out any passer by) then where is the sympathy or tragedy?  Why should we be rooting for her or indeed why would the cop try to let her escape?

What is it she writes in that letter to Alpha? Something along the lines of: "You're right — I can't be trusted. Sorry, but I guess that's who I am." Feels like that's where Worley sits the character. She's deeply flawed, but keen enough to do the right thing. I'm not sure I need someone who's sympathetic—I want someone interesting, and Worley's take on the character has got me interested.

[broodblik]

I recently reread Brutania via the collections and it read much better collected than the weekly episodes.

[Leigh S]

I took Red's letter to Alpha to mean she couldnt be trusted not to double cross Alpha and make off with the loot rather than she would be ripping his throat out!

If she is a threat to any random person who crosses her path, then she is a monster - which might be interesting, but I'm not sure it is sustainable as a story centred on her as the main character over any length of time.   now if that's the story you are telling, that's fine, but then I dont see why the guy gave her the opportunity to escape at the end?

If she is a fairly unrepentant killer (as in, she takes few steps to stop "the urge" taking out any passer by) then where is the sympathy or tragedy?  Why should we be rooting for her or indeed why would the cop try to let her escape?

What is it she writes in that letter to Alpha? Something along the lines of: "You're right — I can't be trusted. Sorry, but I guess that's who I am." Feels like that's where Worley sits the character. She's deeply flawed, but keen enough to do the right thing. I'm not sure I need someone who's sympathetic—I want someone interesting, and Worley's take on the character has got me interested.

[The Corinthian]

I took Red's letter to Alpha to mean she couldnt be trusted not to double cross Alpha and make off with the loot rather than she would be ripping his throat out!

If she is a threat to any random person who crosses her path, then she is a monster - which might be interesting, but I'm not sure it is sustainable as a story centred on her as the main character over any length of time.   now if that's the story you are telling, that's fine, but then I dont see why the guy gave her the opportunity to escape at the end?

I get the impression that Johnny's never entirely trusted Red, but this isn't a version of the character that he'd have any time for. She'd be just another of the long line of scumbag SD agents who wind up on Alpha's bad side and therefore dead by the end of their story.

[Jim_Campbell]

I dont see why the guy gave her the opportunity to escape at the end?

For starters, he wasn't party to that conversation...

[Leigh S]

He is aware of the facts, though, as shown in part 1, where he says "this is waht she is" or words to that effect - now, he might have been impressed that she saved him (from being killed because of her), but he knows about the "Allurian Massacre" and this is part of a pattern that Red is clearly infamoous for

[Barrington Boots]

I also think Alpha probably would have killed this version of Durham Red.

[Magnetica]

I agree it is good to see that the Prog can deliver a strong line up even without any stories by Wagner, Mills or Abnett.

Indeed Carroll and Niemand have been doing great work recently over in the Meg with Dreadnoughts and Megatropolis. Here in the Prog, Mike Carroll is really coming to the fore with Proteus Vex. It's just the sort of strip we need to take 2000AD forward. And Jake Lynch has done a cracking job, so much so that I didn't miss Henry Flint on it at all, which is quite something.

As for the Pat / Slaine situation - for me it's not a matter of expecting to miss Pat, as after all if you want to read his stuff there is Spacewarp. Well there would be, if it came out more regularly, but with one issue in 8 months and counting, I can t help wondering when we'll see another.

The tragedy here for me, is not that Slaine is ending, but the apparent reason: he is bowing out, and presumably being killed off, not because his story has reached a conclusion but to stop other writers using him. That seems a pretty sad end for what is a top four 200AD character. There is nothing in the current story so far to suggest it is the last one and given Pat has stated he has recently edited the last episode, I am expecting his death to feel just tacked on.

But to be honest, when I say Slaine is a top four 2000AD character, that is all based on everything up to and including the Horned God. And I was sad when the concept was first mooted that Slaine as the high king would be ritually put to death after 7 years. Maybe it would have been a better conclusion for the character if that had actually happened 30 years ago.

Of course this is all based on assumptions as to what will be in the last episode; I hope I'll be eating my words when we  see it.

[broodblik]

If it has not been published it did not happen yet. If Tharg is not happy with the ending they the last episode might not get published at all.

I am very much between two directions of thought on how creators characters should be used. I am more included to believe that a character should stay with whom wrote it to begin with. Slaine is Pat's creation and if he does not want to continue with it leave it be. But you get cases where characters only really become great when it was handed over to another writer. I just not like the idea of continuing to reborn and re-image characters (I am looking at you DC/Marvel).

[Sean SD]

My Top 3 for Prog 2223

1st - Durham Red - Strong ending, what is Red up to I wonder?
2nd - Proteus Vex - Keen to see more adventures of Vex and co. My top thrill of the year so far. Will have to reread from book 1 to remind myself of all the planets etc. I think Jake Lynch has been great on this
3rd - 3riller - Nakka of the S.T.A.R.S - Would like to see this more regularly in the GG

[TordelBack]

. I am more included to believe that a character should stay with whom wrote it to begin with. Slaine is Pat's creation and if he does not want to continue with it leave it be.

I'd no more want to read non-Mills Sláine than I would non-Morrison Dante, non-Abnett Kingdom or (more pertinently) non-Smith IP/Waugh. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong or even necessarily low-quality about the principle, or I'd never have enjoyed Moore Swampie, Delano Hellblazer, Miller Daredevil, Worley Hookjaw or Rennie Satanus, but I'd just personally have zero interest in reading it.