The Political Thread

[Leigh S]

Tories will also drop their knickers to use the lovely vernacular...

I don't think Tories have knickers.

and that's the difference!

[Frank]

New labour dropped their knickers for the financial sector. What's so annoying is that they seemed to get so little in return - they let the Square Mile do absolutely anything they wanted, and still didn't get enough in tax returns or increased GDP to build new schools or hospitals without saddling future generations with the burden of repaying the three-magic-beans-in-return-for-your-cow deals struck under PPP.

New Labour's time in office was characterised by inaction, complacency, and abject failure in almost every respect

While New Labour was reaping the whirlwind of the housing boom and record stamp duty receipts, gorging upon the dividend from auctioning off new areas of the telecoms spectrum, raiding private sector pension pots, and offloading bullion reserves at Cash 4 Gold, they were urged to use the proceeds of these windfalls to set up something like Norway's sovereign wealth fund for the NHS - which would guarantee funding for 100 years, regardless of which party was in power.

They didn't, and now real terms cuts to NHS finances mean scandals like Mid-Staffs, where old folk die of dehydration and in their own filth, and reports of Accident and Emergency departments in Wales and Scotland operating at breaking point as a matter of routine, are only going to increase as the current disingenuous pledges to maintain funding levels give way to the real implementation of austerity measures after the 2015 general election. We sure showed Saddam, though.

[Jim_Campbell]

They didn't, and now real terms cuts to NHS finances mean scandals like Mid-Staffs, where old folk die of dehydration and in their own filth

You know that large parts of Julie Bailey's story don't hold water, right? Like vases having been banned from wards years before she says patients were forced to drink out of them? That the 'hundreds of deaths' claim trotted out about Mid-Staffs is the result of a persistent misrepresentation of the standardised mortality index uncritically parrotted by the media?

and reports of Accident and Emergency departments in Wales and Scotland operating at breaking point as a matter of routine

Might that have something to do with the Tories not protecting NHS spending and actually implementing real-terms budget cuts since they came into office? Coupled with their 're-organisation' that's sucked at least £3bn out of the NHS that could have been spent on nurses, while the reforms requiring services to be put out to tender are driving up administration and legal costs, diverting yet more money from actual care?

Might A&E Depts have been put under additional strain because the Tories removed the legal maximum amount of time a patient has to wait for a GP appointment, sending people to A&E for medical attention because they can't wait a week to see their own doctor?

Are you absolutely certain that the Tories' privatisation agenda isn't very well served by presenting the NHS* as being in crisis?

Cheers

Jim

*Note that I'm not saying that there aren't arguments for all sorts of NHS reform, but the Tories' aim is root-and-branch dismantling. They've said so. I don't agree that profit margin is an appropriate driver for standards of health care.

[Recrewt]

Well, less than 24 hours to go until we get to vote in the European Elections.

I do think it is important to vote but these elections pose a dilemma for the average person.  I think that the EU is generally a good thing for the UK, especially in terms of trade and the fact that the UK is not the world power it once was so being part of the EU gives us increased protection/clout than if we went alone.  That said, of late many folks are concerned about immigration numbers and see the financial issues in places like Greece and Spain as being caused by the EU.  There are definitely areas for improvement but to be honest, when are there not?

The real issue with this election is how little debate I have heard about the EU short of UKIP telling us we need to leave and the other parties calling them racist.  I honestly have no clear idea what the Cons/Labs/Libs feel about Europe and what they will do if elected.  Perhaps some of this is due to the fact that they know the MEPs are fairly restricted in what they can achieve in Europe, given the number of seats UK has and the structure of the EU which also uses non-voted for elements.

I think UKIP will do well, partly because people have been bombarded with this fear of immigration and partly because they are one of the few parties with any clear message on Europe.  The real rub though, as I understand it, is that MEPs do not have the power to leave Europe - that decision would have to come from your normal Westminster MPs and UKIP currently have zero of those.

[mogzilla]

my daughter gets a day off school so she's all for europe

[Jim_Campbell]

I think UKIP will do well, partly because people have been bombarded with this fear of immigration and partly because they are one of the few parties with any clear message on Europe.

Leaving aside whether in/out of the EU is a good/bad thing, the main problem with UKIP is that all their other policies are batshit insane. Remember that this is a party founded and bankrolled by people who don't think the most right-wing incarnation of the Conservative party for generations isn't right-wing enough.

Here's a handy illustration of UKIP's tax policy:



In case that graph's hard to read: earn less than ~£45K/pa and you will be worse off. Add to that their stated desire to completely privatise the NHS, thinking that the current Tory approach doesn't go far enough, fast enough; an end to statutory entitlements for workers' redundancy, sick pay, holiday entitlement and maternity leave; an immediate end to all renewable energy projects; the list goes on and on...

If all of that doesn't outweigh their position on Europe then I'm sorry, but you're out of your fucking mind. If you're a working man, UKIP is not your friend; if you're a woman of any kind, UKIP is not your friend; if you're gay or from any kind of minority, UKIP is not your friend. It's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Gah.

Jim

[Frank]

as I understand it, MEPs do not have the power to leave Europe - that decision would have to come from your normal Westminster MPs, and UKIP currently have zero of those

Dave's pledged to hold a fun IN/OUT referendum on EU membership - like the one he's letting us have in Scotland - if the Tories are re-elected in 2015:

[Recrewt]

I think UKIP will do well, partly because people have been bombarded with this fear of immigration and partly because they are one of the few parties with any clear message on Europe.

Leaving aside whether in/out of the EU is a good/bad thing, the main problem with UKIP is that all their other policies are batshit insane. Remember that this is a party founded and bankrolled by people who don't think the most right-wing incarnation of the Conservative party for generations isn't right-wing enough.

UKIP is a one-trick party.  Beyond 'leave Europe immediately' I think they literally just make up anything else. 

I think Lib/Lab/Con have to take a large portion of the blame here for failing to explain to people what Europe means and how we would most likely be worst off if we left rather than just trotting out some confusing guff.  The UKIP party have been sucessful in making this vote primarily about immigration, which is only one aspect of the EU.

[Recrewt]

Dave's pledged to hold a fun IN/OUT referendum on EU membership - like the one he's letting us have in Scotland - if the Tories are re-elected in 2015:

Pity Dave couldn't get this sorted before the next election but if he's promised then I guess we had better all vote for him! 

[Fungus]

I think Lib/Lab/Con have to take a large portion of the blame here for failing to explain to people what Europe means and how we would most likely be worst off if we left rather than just trotting out some confusing guff.

Agreed, and it's electoral suicide to be seen to unreservedly support the EU. Which is a shame. So our brave politicians keep quiet.
Clegg is the exception to this, but seems almost irrelevant given their catastrophic last few years.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

With a bit of luck the EU might get their accounts signed off one year

[Theblazeuk]

It's such rubbish. "Oh yeah we'll have a referendum next time" has been pulled so many times it's laughable and I think the lie convinces people towards UKIP more than a straight 'NO' would do.

[Recrewt]

With a bit of luck the EU might get their accounts signed off one year

Depends who you believe CF 

The European Court of Auditors issued the following statement as part of their press release on 5th November 2013:

EU accounts signed off, but errors persist in all main spending areas, say EU Auditors

The annual report on the EU budget for 2012 financial year was published today by the European Court of Auditors (ECA). As independent auditor, the ECA has signed off the 2012 accounts of the European Union, as it has done each year since the 2007 financial year. But in most spending areas of the EU budget the report finds that the legislation in force is still not fully complied with.

Now, the Daily Mail reported on 5th November 2013:

Auditors refuse to give EU accounts a clean bill of health for 19th year in a row as rate of unexplained spending rises 23%... with UK liable for £800m.

Auditors yesterday refused to sign off the EU accounts for the 19th year in succession as they revealed that the spending errors are 23 per cent up on the year before.

[Frank]

It's such rubbish. "Oh yeah we'll have a referendum next time" has been pulled so many times it's laughable and I think the lie convinces people towards UKIP more than a straight 'NO' would do

Dave's letting the SNP have their independence referendum, and that wasn't one of his campaign pledges at a general election - which the 2017 EU membership referendum will be. He'd be finished politically if he went back on that specific pledge, and probably the Tories would be too. I don't think it matters, but I don't think it's possible for him to go back on that pledge either.

If the current atmosphere still obtains a year from now, I think whoever takes power after the 2015 general election is going to have to honour Dave's pledge.

[Old Tankie]

Hi Jim, thanks for telling me I'm "out of my f.....g mind".  You said before that the European Union is an abstract thing, and didn't respond when I pointed out some of the areas where the European Union is certainly not an abstract thing.  It affects our lives on a daily basis for good and bad.

I'm not voting Ukip because I think they're going to get elected, it's about forcing one of the main parties to give us a choice on the matter, as opposed to them all being for membership of the European Union.  That's all I want.  And if that makes me "f.....g mad", so be it.