Dr Who Christmas Special

[The Monarch]

you know I agree with everyones criticisms of the episode apart from one thing....

I personally thought the last fifteen odd minutes were pretty damn good and it felt right that the doctor got to poke his 900 odd year old nose in his friends buisiness one last time

[Graham Pearce]

I loved it... even though it was flawed, with some dodgy FX, some obtrusive music, some annoying chase scenes that were too long (like most episodes really) I really, really enjoyed it.

I'm glad that RTD devoted plenty of time at the end for the Doctor to give a final nod to his to all his companions, I thought some bits were quite moving...

For all of RTDs flaws, he took a huge risk with a tv series that was a joke and turned it into one of the best British TV series of the decade.

Lets see what Moffat can do

[SamuelAWilkinson]

Nice to see River Song reappearing in the trailer for next year.

[Goaty]

Nice to see River Song reappearing in the trailer for next year.

yeah as River Song and the Statues was in stories by Moffat..... looks like River Song is in Blink Part 2...

[Nap Normal]

Pure pish!!! at least with Star trek you get some good solid science behind each episode not this mumbo jumbo. I also didn't like the way they never told us who the woman time lord was.
My 12 year old nephew enjoyed it and I guess that's the target audience not a a middle aged moaner like myself. On the bright side it was so bad that I'm now really looking forward to the new series with the new Doctor.
Over all RTD has been a success. He's created new fans for the series and has generally done the brand a lot of good so thanks for that RTD... now F*ck off.      

[SamuelAWilkinson]

Pure pish!!! at least with Star trek you get some good solid science behind each episode not this mumbo jumbo.

Dunno what Star Trek you've been watching.

[Richmond Clements]

One example, please.

Mmm... You're probably right on the plotting point- I'm thinking more of Saward's beefing up of the violence to the point he has the Doctor shooting a cyberman in the chest in the TARDIS- or JNTs relentless casting of inappropriate guest stars (and yes I'm well aware saying this is leaving me wide open to people pointing out New Who examples of the same!)

For what it's worth- I can see the faults in RTD's Who- but to me, they are no worse than the many faults in old Who.

[Mike Gloady]

That's be the technobabble that renders almost everything branded "Star Trek" unwatchable shite, would it?  

THANK YOU RTD for not doing that.  Can't help but think there must be a middle way.

[SamuelAWilkinson]

For what it's worth- I can see the faults in RTD's Who- but to me, they are no worse than the many faults in old Who.

You may be right. I think where Nu Who often falls down is that its writers (mostly RTD, others have been guilty of same) seem to be trying to get the same level of plot, character development and such out of one 45-minute episode that the old series would stretch out over ninety minutes at least and it all just comes out rushed. That and the failure to provide internally consistent science.

[Jim_Campbell]

This is the argument I have time and time again where Nu Who is concerned and which has only ever been met with evasions and changes of subject.

Let's assume we allow that the series could never have come back without being updated. Let's agree that neither I, nor anyone else on this board, is in the target demographic. Let's agree that attention spans have shortened, and thus the shorter, less complex storylines are a necessity; that the video-game inspired running around and dodging stuff is practically expected by the target audience ... Let's allow all this, and more. Note that I'm not saying that I do, but for the sake of this argument, we'll accept that it's all necessary and, perhaps, even an improvement.*

For all of that, can anyone explain to me why the series wouldn't be even better with more consistent characterization and plots that made sense? Every time we've had this argument in the past, I've been able to come up with a reasonable fix for pretty much any plot hole in about ten minutes and I'm not getting paid for it.**

Can no-one concede that -- even if you don't share my actual anger at the contempt this sort of lazy crap shows its audience -- marrying the higher production values, the breezier pacing, the FX budget, to stories that actually make sense would make the show better than it currently is regardless of where you think it currently lies on the Shit -> Wonderful scale?

I fear that I am heaping too  many expectations on the shoulders of Mr Moffatt. Does anyone know if he'll let Gatiss start writing for the series again, BTW?

Cheers

Jim


*Let's be honest, some of those Old Who six-parters could be a bit glacial in their plot progression.

** Exception: this pile of old shite. I'm broadly certain I could assemble the various elements into something that resembled a plot, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to undertake a task of that magnitude.

[Leigh S]

One example, please.

Mmm... You're probably right on the plotting point- I'm thinking more of Saward's beefing up of the violence to the point he has the Doctor shooting a cyberman in the chest in the TARDIS- or JNTs relentless casting of inappropriate guest stars (and yes I'm well aware saying this is leaving me wide open to people pointing out New Who examples of the same!)

For what it's worth- I can see the faults in RTD's Who- but to me, they are no worse than the many faults in old Who.

I can almost get with that, though it seems a weird argument to say because large chunks of the programme (in the 80s particulary ) were terrible, its good that the new one is just as bad!

shouldnt it be setting itself to be better - hell, i probably might also give this argument more weight if RTD didnt spend all his time telling us how hes "fixed" all that was wrong with the old series!

RTD - no more rubbish than JNT.  not something you'd want on your tombstone surely?

[Richmond Clements]

Jim- I reckon you're right. RTD would dearly love to be Josh Weldon, but he hasn't got the chops for it.
Sometimes it looks like he almost gets there, but Weldon can do interweaving plots, characters, humour and action a lot better...

The problem is- I freely admit- my love for the show from my younger days where it was the most important thing in my life- allows me to ignore the faults.

[Eric Plumrose]

Accepting both the superficial and more profound changes in new Who would've been so much easier for me if RTD's engendered contempt of the show's audience hadn't become so obvious so early on in the revamp.

That new Who doesn't come close to being good is only so much a matter of personal taste. I've got no problem with the show being a melodrama if it's done well; yet, as has been the case since the first season, the heroics were mostly trite and the soap narratives mawkish. What little plot there was last night often unfolded in exposition alone, which works only if the actor concerned has the skill and gravitas of Timothy Dalton; less so if you're having to rely on Tennant's champing resolve or John Simm squealing and clapping his hands.

And, oh dear. Matt Smith. Tennant at least was able to pull off RTD's attrocious post-regeneration dialogue. And as a proper Shakespearean actor, Dalton's allowed to spit.

Parting shots:

1) In the grand scheme of things, the Doctor's aversion to being a ginger isn't as offensive as it would have been if, say, he'd instead expressed relief at not being Irish or black; but it's the same casual prejudice RTD imbued the Doctor with in 'New Earth' just for the sake of a cheap laugh.

2) RTD still has a problem with interracial couples, I see. No longer engaged to Thomas Milligan, Martha's now married to Mickey. The ends credits, that's how long I'm giving Donna before she and Sean seek an annulment.

'It's the end'. Yes it is, thank fuck.

[Richmond Clements]

In the grand scheme of things, the Doctor's aversion to being a ginger isn't as offensive as it would have been if, say, he'd instead expressed relief at not being Irish or black

Indeed, this would be the case if you hadn't gotten the thing entirely the wrong way round- he wanted to be ginger last time and was expressing disappointment that he still wasn't this time.

RTD still has a problem with interracial couples,

Sorry, but WHAT? Where the fuck does this come from, other than an apparent desire to find a fault in the paring of Micky and Martha?

[Eric Plumrose]

In the grand scheme of things, the Doctor's aversion to being a ginger isn't as offensive as it would have been if, say, he'd instead expressed relief at not being Irish or black

Indeed, this would be the case if you hadn't gotten the thing entirely the wrong way round- he wanted to be ginger last time and was expressing disappointment that he still wasn't this time.

He did? Well, that's a relief to hear. Some of my best friends are ginger.

RTD still has a problem with interracial couples,

Sorry, but WHAT? Where the fuck does this come from, other than an apparent desire to find a fault in the paring of Micky and Martha?

We've been here before, so let's not end up debating a minor observation more than it deserves. However, in striving for an ethnically diverse cast, the show has inadvertently had four of its five interracial couples either split up or portrayed negatively. There's no agenda, I'm sure; it's simply another example of how RTD doesn't bother thinking through his plots and any implications that may arise there from.

The pairing up of Mickey and Martha isn't in itself an issue but nor was it necessary. It was done (I presume) for the sake of compression (ridiculous given how long the ending went on for); in which case, why not have shown Mickey and Rose together and not break up Martha and Thomas?