Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?

[JayzusB.Christ]

Maybe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, and forgive my naivete, but what's TERF?

[Jim_Campbell]

Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

[Funt Solo]

You can decry it as anti-trans, but its supporters would say it's pro-feminism.

Jesus. Did you look at some of that merchandise? "Trans women are men"...? "Sorry about your dick, bro"...?

It is anti-trans. There's no "but both sides" there.

I didn't deeply search the web-site, no - just looked at the front page. Those are clearly anti-trans messages.

I'm going to be a bit of a Devil's Advocate and point out that Rowling's t-shirt wasn't, and I don't know how much of a deep dive she did.

You might be right about her. I'm not entirely convinced. We'll need to agree to disagree.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Maybe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, and forgive my naivete, but what's TERF?

Internet yoofspeak that sensible people should only use ironically.

I'll confess that I have no firsthand knowledge of J.K Rowlings opinions of the trans community, but the debate here confirms my bias that she's not that great a writer, since she can't express herself clearly and unambiguously.

[Professor Bear]

Worth pointing out that TERFs' views are not considered normal or acceptable within the contemporary feminism movement.  Theirs (TERFs) is a fringe opinion based on - as I pointed out - biological and gender essentialism, a form of argument used to oppress women for centuries by claiming their societal roles were predetermined by physical factors.

[Jim_Campbell]

Worth pointing out that TERFs' views are not considered normal or acceptable within the contemporary feminism movement.

And, again, the idea that they would be happy to share those 'safe spaces' with trans men is clearly ridiculous. Despite their argument demonstrably stating that they would, of course they fucking wouldn't. It's intellectually dishonest. It's just transphobia dressed up in feminist justification. Hence, TERF.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

[Funt Solo]

Interesting Gruniad article on "Troubled Blood", in which Rowling explains what she thinks the book is about, and where she got the idea for the murder suspect's proclivities.

[radiator]

It grinds my gears when people who would never dare say anything openly homophobic moan about the whole transgender bathrooms thing. Can't they hear themselves and realise that many people used to say the exact same kinds of things about gay people - and not even that long ago?

It's like people who think they're pretty liberal minded but decry BLM because they 'go a bit far' and 'don't do themselves any favours' with their actions. Have some self-awareness and understand that you'd be saying the exact same thing about the civil rights movement if you had been around back then. Do you want to be that person?

[Dandontdare]

Not really wanting to get involved in the trans/terf debate (for most of the reasons this thread addresses), this is a good piece about whether Rowling's latest book is a transphobic message or not: https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/sep/15/rowling-troubled-blood-thriller-robert-galbraith-review

My principal objection to the term 'woke'  is grammatical. It's the past-perfect of wake. The adjectival forms are awoken, awake, or awakened, all of which are crap, so think of something else, (I'm with Bernard Black: "NEVER use party as a verb in this shop")

It can be dangerous to create an unnatural sounding term that will only ever aid the enemy - the phrase "politically correct" was never a left wing philosophy, but an in-joke that was picked up by the right wing press and used against them ever since¹. In all my years I have NEVER heard it used by anyone on the left, it is only EVER used in a derogatory sense by opponents of something or other, and it has become a mightily powerful tool in every argument since.

While we're on the subject, how the hell did "do-gooder" become an insult? Damn you, coming round here and doing good!

¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

[Tjm86]

It's like people who think they're pretty liberal minded but decry BLM because they 'go a bit far' and 'don't do themselves any favours' with their actions.

This is true of Extinction Rebellion too.  Their recent disruption of access to the printing press site achieved exactly what it was intended to, foregrounding the complicity of the media in so many social and political issues of harm to many and the Climate Crisis in particular.

So the emphasis is on restrictions to 'press freedom' in the commentary whilst ignoring the fact that so many editorial decisions give space and time to questionable or downright inaccurate points about whether human activity is responsible.  In doing so the result is to illustrate the very point XR was aiming for.

The same is true of those complain about the inconvenience of XR actions that disrupt traffic.  Ignoring the fact that a hell of a lot of people suffered far more than a few hours 'inconvenience' earlier this year when they were flooded out by the extreme weather events of the last winter and are still living with the effects nearly 9 months later in some cases.

Maybe there needs to be a bit more consideration over whether 'we' are doing ourselves any favours with our apathy.  Having kicked open the worm can with this thread I'm now going to lob in another one by suggesting that some of what is going on right now is bringing me to consider some of Sharky's viewpoints on government and social structures.   

[Leigh S]

Wish the Guardian (and JK herself) had taken the same "wait a minute maybe we are reading too much into this and people are twisting their words for smearing purposes" when it came to Corbyn.  If you were to give JK a bit of slack, you then have to ask yourslf how many double downs and trollings you are happy to allow her to make (for someone how is apparently cancelled) - I'm sure there is an irony in this given JK and the Guardian's "No debate!" approach to purging the Labour party of those damned Leftists

[Jim_Campbell]

Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.

[shaolin_monkey]

Blimey, what a thread!

I have two trans sons. I just want them to be happy, and to live in a world of acceptance. I don't think that's too much to ask, but apparently for some people it is. Regardless, I'll defend them to my dying breath.

Re 'woke', the grammar jars for me also, and I dislike it as a label used on either side. On the 'positive' side it can be used to describe someone who exhibits an ideology of fairness, equality, and acceptance - but it's massively patronising, as if you have suddenly awoken to those concepts. It was used on be in the last few years, and my instant reaction was "Fuck you - this is my entire ideology, and always has been - don't bloody label me."

Possibly an overreaction, but it just took me back to a time in work a few decades ago when a hugely homophobic dickhead was being really nasty to gay employees, and when he and I butted heads over it he accused me of jumping on some pro-homosexual bandwagon. The idiot really copped it from me then!!  For some reason it always angers me that people who don't know me try to tell me what I do and don't believe, and why.

Anyway, I digress. On the flip side, "woke" has been adopted to describe the folk who stand for equality and justice in a derogatory fashion, as if those are bad things.  There are many words used to denigrate those who want the best for everyone.

I'm compiling a list of words/phrases only used by these complete and utter wankers:

Virtue signalling
Libtard
Snowflake
Antifa
SJW
Remoaner
Soyboy
Cuck
Commie
Feminazi

It's a great trick employed by the right wing to create short snappy words and mottos ("Get Brexit Done") to align those lacking the education to employ critical thought, and to sidestep empathy for your fellow human beings. Weaponised language, basically. It's one of the many precursors to genocide.

[The Legendary Shark]

I think anything can be questioned. If we don't question things, how can we a) understand or b) improve them?