Main Menu

Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?

Started by Tjm86, 24 September, 2020, 08:01:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

The Legendary Shark

Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 26 September, 2020, 10:27:21 AM

Anyway, I digress. On the flip side, "woke" has been adopted to describe the folk who stand for equality and justice in a derogatory fashion, as if those are bad things.  There are many words used to denigrate those who want the best for everyone.

I'm compiling a list of words/phrases only used by these complete and utter wankers:

Virtue signalling
Libtard
Snowflake
Antifa
SJW
Remoaner
Soyboy
Cuck
Commie
Feminazi

It's a great trick employed by the right wing to create short snappy words and mottos ("Get Brexit Done") to align those lacking the education to employ critical thought, and to sidestep empathy for your fellow human beings. Weaponised language, basically. It's one of the many precursors to genocide.


Don't forget "conspiracy theorist." Police detectives, arson investigators, coroners and suchlike are all conspiracy theorists because they assemble and arrange evidence before formulating theories which are tested in court.

Someone who believes that Elvis lives with Shergar in a London bus on the moon from whence he maintains a CIA mind control ray pointed at the Vatican is not a conspiracy theorist but a conspiracy fictionist.

Labels like these discourage questions and non-mainstream narratives as well as reducing incredibly complex individual human beings to a handful of negative traits. When the label is all we see, it's much easier to hate what it represents than to love the fellow human it's attached to.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 September, 2020, 11:04:40 AM
Don't forget "conspiracy theorist." Police detectives, arson investigators, coroners and suchlike are all conspiracy theorists because they assemble and arrange evidence before formulating theories which are tested in court.

While technically true, the examples you listed are neither called nor dismissed as conspiracy theorists because they have expertise and qualifications in the subjects they investigate.

I do not think it is unreasonable to dismiss an amateur who conflates presenting second hand articles  found on google with the difficult time consuming discipline of research. There is a fine line between "questioning the mainstream narrative", "attempting to deny reality" and downright "maliciously lying to confuse the narrative ".
You may quote me on that.

shaolin_monkey

At times such as this I like to highlight Dr. John Cook and Dr Stephan Lewandowsky's booklet aptly named 'The Conspiracy Theory Handbook' - 10 pages of very useful information re what they are, and how to recognise them:

https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf

I may have mentioned it before.

Good to see you Shark! It's been a while.

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 September, 2020, 09:13:37 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 September, 2020, 11:24:34 PM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.


I haven't followed his recent developments too closely, but he does seem to have lost it a bit.  Shame - I'll always love his work on Father Ted, The Fast Show and Brass Eye.  I suppose it's fairly normal to like the creation but not the creator. 
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

The Legendary Shark

Mister Pops,

I hope you are well.


Agreed on all points.

Some of the most careful researchers out there are dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" and chucked in the same bin as Ike or Blair. To be fair, I do much the same thing with the mainstream media believing it to be (as no doubt others do with "alternative" media) highly politicised, heavily edited, and relentlessly dumbing down. Even the news channels seem to be all emotion.

Anyway. Not everyone to whom the label "conspiracy theorist" has been attached is a raving lunatic, is what I'm saying. I mean, I am, obviously. Goes without saying.

Don't rely on the labels.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 September, 2020, 11:39:50 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 September, 2020, 09:13:37 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 September, 2020, 11:24:34 PM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.


I haven't followed his recent developments too closely, but he does seem to have lost it a bit.  Shame - I'll always love his work on Father Ted, The Fast Show and Brass Eye.  I suppose it's fairly normal to like the creation but not the creator.

Worth remembering that Linehan was not the sole creator of those works. Dermot Morgans efforts shouldn't be dismissed because his former collaborator decided he wanted to be in Scunthorpe.
You may quote me on that.

JayzusB.Christ

#66
Quote from: Mister Pops on 26 September, 2020, 11:53:38 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 September, 2020, 11:39:50 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 September, 2020, 09:13:37 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 September, 2020, 11:24:34 PM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.


I haven't followed his recent developments too closely, but he does seem to have lost it a bit.  Shame - I'll always love his work on Father Ted, The Fast Show and Brass Eye.  I suppose it's fairly normal to like the creation but not the creator.

Worth remembering that Linehan was not the sole creator of those works. Dermot Morgans efforts shouldn't be dismissed because his former collaborator decided he wanted to be in Scunthorpe.

Yes, of course.  And obviously Arthur Matthews, Chris Morris and everyone involved in The Fast Show.  Also I'd forgotten about the hugely underrated Big Train, whose main creators were Matthews and Linehan, which makes it all the sadder that the latter now resides, as you say, in Scunthorpe.

I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

sintec

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 September, 2020, 10:39:25 AM
I think anything can be questioned. If we don't question things, how can we a) understand or b) improve them?

Whilst I absolutely agree with the sentiment I think we have to take some care when the thing being questioned is someone elses right to live their life in the way they choose. If they're not hurting anyone else with their choices then they shouldn't have to justify those choices to a baying mob. It's also worth remembering that it's not on them to continually explain themselves or their culture, it's on us to educate ourselves. Questioning can be used as a means to disenfranchise communities or to bully them into submission at which point it's no longer a positive thing.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 September, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.

I think it's a wee bit trickier to divorce the sole author of a book from their work, than a collaborator on a TV show. I have no skin in the Harry Potter game either. I read the first book* and didn't hate, but I wasn't about to read the sequels to this book for wee kids** with their ever expanding page counts. My sisters are big fans of the series, but I know they haven't had a high opinion of its author for a while now. I don't know if this is the consensus among Potter fans, some may be burning the books, others may feel their vile opinions vindicated.

Look. I don't know if Rowling is transphobic or not and I don't care enough about her or her work to investigate further. It was just something I heard second hand and I probably shouldn't have parroted it.
You may quote me on that.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: Mister Pops on 26 September, 2020, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 September, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.

I think it's a wee bit trickier to divorce the sole author of a book from their work, than a collaborator on a TV show. I have no skin in the Harry Potter game either. I read the first book* and didn't hate, but I wasn't about to read the sequels to this book for wee kids** with their ever expanding page counts. My sisters are big fans of the series, but I know they haven't had a high opinion of its author for a while now. I don't know if this is the consensus among Potter fans, some may be burning the books, others may feel their vile opinions vindicated.

Look. I don't know if Rowling is transphobic or not and I don't care enough about her or her work to investigate further. It was just something I heard second hand and I probably shouldn't have parroted it.

Mssed the edit

*Back when the third book came out and the hype was really kicking in
** I was 19 and too cool for school
You may quote me on that.

Tjm86

Quote from: sintec on 26 September, 2020, 01:21:28 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 September, 2020, 10:39:25 AM
I think anything can be questioned. If we don't question things, how can we a) understand or b) improve them?

It's also worth remembering that it's not on them to continually explain themselves or their culture, it's on us to educate ourselves. Questioning can be used as a means to disenfranchise communities or to bully them into submission at which point it's no longer a positive thing.

This is something I find myself wanting to explore.  One thing that Christians consistently get wrong in the whole "homosexuality is a sin" position is that it is not just questioning behaviour.  It is questioning and impugning someone's identity.  There is a fundamental failure to understand what the implications of this are.

At the same time though there is a cultural shift that has moved at different speeds in different places.  Growing up in an all-male boarding school and then the RAF has, for me, had a powerful impact on my understanding of many things (or rather, misunderstanding).  So now I find myself having to question and explore those understandings in significant depth.

As a process of self-education there is a risk in straying across the line between knowledge-seeking and disenfranchisement.  Considering the perceptual challenges my mental health condition places on me it is all too easy to blunder inadvertently.

So I find myself in a bind.  Am I allowed to ask these questions?  Is wanting to explore how these issues affect me inappropriate because I should not have them in the first place?  How can I discuss them without blundering over those invisible lines that seem to constantly shift?

Considering that we currently seem to be living with "Generation Outrage" where it is not just a right to be offended but it almost seems mandatory at times, I'm not sure how to do so.  I'm not making light of legitimate grievances and anger against injustice.  What I do find problematic is how quickly minor issues can become so dramatically inflated.  As was observed over on the Threadjacking thread, the speed at which the Internet can become outraged is terrifying!

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: Mister Pops on 26 September, 2020, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 September, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.

I think it's a wee bit trickier to divorce the sole author of a book from their work, than a collaborator on a TV show. I have no skin in the Harry Potter game either. I read the first book* and didn't hate, but I wasn't about to read the sequels to this book for wee kids** with their ever expanding page counts. My sisters are big fans of the series, but I know they haven't had a high opinion of its author for a while now. I don't know if this is the consensus among Potter fans, some may be burning the books, others may feel their vile opinions vindicated.

Look. I don't know if Rowling is transphobic or not and I don't care enough about her or her work to investigate further. It was just something I heard second hand and I probably shouldn't have parroted it.

No bother; I wasn't even referring to your comments specifically - thinking about Graham Linehan led me to thinking about JK Rowling.

One thing that's just occurred to me is a loosely-remembered idea from a source I can't remember either, concerning the incessant claims that 'woke' culture wants to restrict free speech.

Restrictions on free speech is North Korea, China and Nazi Germany.  It's police forcibly arresting you for saying something the government doesn't like.  What many alt-right types don't understand is that free speech doesn't mean there are no consequences whatsoever for saying ugly and derogatory things.  If my manager is brown-skinned (which he is, btw) and I address him with a racial slur, should I keep my job because he shouldn't impinge on my right to free speech?  If I shout transphobic abuse at a trans shop assistant, should I be allowed back into the shop whenever I like because of my legal entitlement to free speech?

Free speech isn't what a lot of people these days seem to think it is.  If you say injecting disinfectant cures a virus, expect to get ridiculed.  If you talk about picaninnies with watermelon smiles in the 20th century, expect people to say you're a racist prick. 
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

Funt Solo

Quote from: Tjm86 on 26 September, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
Am I allowed to ask these questions?

I think this is a safe space for that.

---

I'm sorry if my questioning has offended anyone, I must say. I know that, like Tjm86, I'm often trying to think myself to a better understanding, and sometimes that means I'm going to question positions.

Like, with feminism, or women's rights, I've always felt like I've been a supporter. And with trans rights, it's been a life journey because it's something that feels like it's come into existence while I've been in existence. So, when it seems like there's a conflict between the two sets of rights I get confused as to how to fathom that.

But that's all really in a mental playground of mine (which I expose here) - when the rubber hits the road, I know exactly what to do and say and how to behave, and I'm supportive. I just wanted to emphasize that. In my job as a teacher I support all my students, and my classroom (I'm proud to say) is inclusive. I correctly pronoun, I flag support, I shut down any sort of hate-speech that crops up (although it has very rarely cropped up), I don't push my politics on them and I try to demonstrate how debate and research can answer better where a fixed mindset can't.

I am aware that (where I live) the younger generation is much, much better at acceptance of trans rights & gay rights than the school and area where I grew up. I'm hopeful (despite the Trumps and Putins of the world) that the direction of travel is positive.
++ A-Z ++  coma ++

Funt Solo

Sorry to double-post, but slightly separate topic.

I took a fairly vociferous stance against perceived conspiracy theories a few months ago on here, and sort of joined in a policy of saying they didn't belong here as topics of conversation.

Then I noticed they were coming up on news media as topics of conversation, and I felt like an arse.

If the media takes them seriously enough to investigate (and, in many cases, as you might imagine, debunk), then who am I (and who are we) to say they're not valid topics of conversation here.

That's my long-winded way of saying sorry.
++ A-Z ++  coma ++

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: Funt Solo on 26 September, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 26 September, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
Am I allowed to ask these questions?

I think this is a safe space for that.

---

I'm sorry if my questioning has offended anyone, I must say. I know that, like Tjm86, I'm often trying to think myself to a better understanding, and sometimes that means I'm going to question positions.

Like, with feminism, or women's rights, I've always felt like I've been a supporter. And with trans rights, it's been a life journey because it's something that feels like it's come into existence while I've been in existence...

I am aware that (where I live) the younger generation is much, much better at acceptance of trans rights & gay rights than the school and area where I grew up. I'm hopeful (despite the Trumps and Putins of the world) that the direction of travel is positive.

Totally with you here.  I was born in small-town Ireland when the Catholic church still pretty much ruled the roost, and it's been very encouraging to me to see the power of their blinkered, medieval views wane so much.  My students are mostly Brazilians, and I used to wonder why they had such a high proportion of gay men among their number.  I have since been told that they're here because they're gay, and are accepted much more.  Which makes me happy, when I look back at a time when you couldn't even get divorced.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"