Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?

[JayzusB.Christ]

Nice one, Shaolin Monkey - you have a keeper there!

Or are they just trying to virtue signal themselves?

Here's a phrase I've heard a lot in the last few years but still haven't quite got my head around.  I'm not directing this at you, ChickenStu, just thinking about the expression you used - 'virtue signal'.   

Does this just mean 'pretending to be nice'? 'Doing / saying nice things just show off'? 'Saying "woke" things that you don't really believe'?  'Making "PC" statements just to look good'?

If it's any of the above, how can we actually determine that the person is secretly not what they say they are? It's as baffling to me as using 'social justice warrior' as an insult - don't people want social justice?

[Leigh S]

I don't think we can deny the existence of people who like to say "the right thing" but in private may not live up to that.  The problem with the phrase "Virtue Signaller" is that it paints everyone, not just the usual dickish minority who would be dicks about a lot of other things given the chance, as in it for the likes.

As such, it is unhelpful - sure, there exists a tiny proportion of dickheads who present themselves as something for their own gain (I recall a sunglasses wearing Union rep from the early 90s who was very Right On, but an absolute bastard when it came to his personal relationships - maybe he thought the one forgave the other?).  If you dont like "all men are bastards" you should not be using "Virtue Signalling" or "SJW" in precisely the same way.

[ChickenStu]

@JayzusBChrist... Yeah. That's about the size of it.

@Leigh S... I think it's perfectly easy to tell the difference between the ones who are genuine and the ones who aint.

[Leigh S]

Without putting words into your mouth ChickenStu, you are "immediately suspicious of anyone" who criticises something for lacking diversity, so by that mark, the tell tale sign someone doesn't really want diversity is that they are vocal in their support of diversity?

If what you are saying is "I support diversity too but some people leap in before they have all the facts, or want diversity where it would be odd (No black actors playing Nazi High Command roles)", then I get you.   It isnt somethign that personally riles me, other than it makes a good straw man target for the Piers Morgans to use to discredit the whole idea of diversity. 

I'd argue that is the minority though, so I wouldnt become immediately suspicious of someones motives myself, unless it was something like the above example, in which case, amplifying the "nutter" element by bringing up "virtue signalling" as if it is a huge problem only undermines the vast majority of sensible voices, so best to ignore it/step away from such extremes (which I thnk are rare enough I dont feel the need to go on high alert as soon as anyone mentions diversity)

[ChickenStu]

Without putting words into your mouth ChickenStu, you are "immediately suspicious of anyone" who criticises something for lacking diversity, so by that mark, the tell tale sign someone doesn't really want diversity is that they are vocal in their support of diversity?

If what you are saying is "I support diversity too but some people leap in before they have all the facts, or want diversity where it would be odd (No black actors playing Nazi High Command roles)", then I get you.   It isnt somethign that personally riles me, other than it makes a good straw man target for the Piers Morgans to use to discredit the whole idea of diversity. 

I'd argue that is the minority though, so I wouldnt become immediately suspicious of someones motives myself, unless it was something like the above example, in which case, amplifying the "nutter" element by bringing up "virtue signalling" as if it is a huge problem only undermines the vast majority of sensible voices, so best to ignore it/step away from such extremes (which I thnk are rare enough I dont feel the need to go on high alert as soon as anyone mentions diversity)

I'm not going to take the easy way out but thanks for offering it.

Support diversity? I'm just not racist, I live my life being nice to everyone and I call out injustice when I'm needed.

I'll give you an example: The Idris Elba as Bond thing. I wouldn't care of he played Bond. Not because of any self aggrandizing posturing - more "it's just a movie - who gives a shit. If he looks cool in a tux then that's my ticket bought".

When I talk about being suspicious - it's not about whether they believe it, it's more if they expect to gain something. Social media likes are fast becoming a currency. You watched the Black Mirror episode Nosedive, right?

[Funt Solo]

Wife Solo and I were chatting about this topic, and she had a good example of real-life virtue-signaling which happens when you try to do diversity training in the workplace. Some of the staff have at the ready their "I'm already a friend so I don't need the training" story. You'll have heard stories like this - they begin with "But one of my best friends is black..." or "I don't even notice colour..."

Having thus signaled that you're on the right team, you get to remove yourself from the conflict zone.

Much more difficult is to face up to the idea that actually you probably are a little bit influenced by culture in ways that make you uncomfortable. I'll confess - I'm nervous of young latinos because of some negative experiences I've had. It makes me jumpy around them, in neutral locations like shops. See: they're a "them" in my mind. It's a prejudice I have, which I'm not sure how to fix.

[CalHab]

That's a well made point. I don't think anybody is truly free from prejudice. The best humans can be is conscious of it and work on improving themselves.

[Leigh S]

I think we are all social and tribal creatures and it is possible to do one thing for more than one reason.  We want to associate ourselves with a "tribe" and distinguish ourselves from other tribes - we want to signal what we believe in, in whatever manner we can.  It was pointed out that your anti-virtue signalling stance is in itself signalling a different virtue - direct action - cool, direct action is good, not everyone is in or will find themselves in a position for that, mind.

And this goes wider than purely political debate to the core of who we are in every aspect.

There might be chaps who like Heavy Metal music more for the culture than the music - maybe they are bikers for who the music goes with the lifestyle.  Maybe they just like Girls with tattoos! 

Maybe they like girls with tattoos, bikes and also like Heavy Metal?

Maybe they just like girls with tattoos!

Maybe they are scared of bikes, live in the middle of nowhere with no girls with tattoos to be seen - they don't even drink , that's not very metal!  But they wear a Slayer T-shirt and a Holy Diver Back patch.... Are they the Heavy Metal equivalent of a Virtue Signaller?

Should Scruffy Murphy's employ a strict entry proces where you have to name the original line up Anthrax?

Why would I look around at the people in Scruffy Murphy's and think "none of these people really like Heavy Metal - they are just in it for how it makes them look"

As you say, you can usually tell the people who are in it to win it, but those people are not the majority. 

The guy who jumps up and shouts "what about diversity" might be posturing, but does that invalidate anyhting other than that person themselves?  Why focus on it?  To me as that's a tactic used to diminish the core argument, I wouldn't be dwelling on it - I sigh and move on - there are idiots everywhere, you can't set the terms of any debate by the most stupid statement there - "kill all men" said someone somewhere, so Feminism is inherently bad.  Why help build that straw man?

This is why I would say virtue signalling is at bet unuseful and at worst a method to trash an otherwise "positive" trend. As such that annd SJW are best left to Trump and Farage supporters, and bringing them into any debate as if they were the core problem is just giving them oxygen to people I am immediately suspicious of!

When I wear my Nemesis T shirt am I Virtue signalling that I love a comic strip about an alien freedom fighter taking on a Xenophobic Empire?  Well,  yes, in part I am!

[ChickenStu]

Maybe life experience has made me a bit cynical, I don't know. And perhaps it stems from my (sadly necessary) research into the negative effects that social media is having on civilisation in general.

But it's like I said above - we're moving more into a society where affirmation on social media has become almost a psuedo currency. It's happening right under our noses.

So what's the best way to generate that kind of approval? Get behind a cause. Post a selfie taken at some kind of protest to show how 'right on" one is.

I'm not saying all are not genuine - but it's prudent to take such matters into consideration when examining this phenomenon.

[Leigh S]

I definitely agree Social Media is a potentially toxic and addictive replacemetn for actually going out and doing things, that's true.  but it is also potentially a positive force for people to raise their freak flag. I mean, sadly, it has been way too effective for Right Wingers to allow their own brand of virtue signalling, using phrases like "snowflake", "SJW" and "Virtue Signalling" to gain their own kind of approval and build their tribe.

[TordelBack]

Humans signal their allegiances, their allies, their puissance, their reproductive suitability, their virtue, in a self-serving and performative way just like every other living creature. That's what clothes are, hairstyles, cars, accents, banter, degrees, storytelling, religious observance, even art - in humans, we call this culture. That people do this on the internet, and that others try to discern their motives, shouldn't be a surprise.  But it also isn't a bad thing,  it just is.

[Funt Solo]

Typical virtue-signaling!

[ChickenStu]

I definitely agree Social Media is a potentially toxic and addictive replacemetn for actually going out and doing things, that's true.  but it is also potentially a positive force for people to raise their freak flag. I mean, sadly, it has been way too effective for Right Wingers to allow their own brand of virtue signalling, using phrases like "snowflake", "SJW" and "Virtue Signalling" to gain their own kind of approval and build their tribe.

I hope you don't think I'm one of these right wingers because I can assure you I'm not. I'm just being honest about how I feel right now.

Off topic slightly - Social Media has a lot to answer for. There has been a sharp rise in mental health issues, mainly in adolescent/teenage girls. The stats do not make for pleasant reading. All linked to the social media phenomenon. It's a catastrophe unfolding right in front of us.

[Tjm86]

Unfolding right before our eyes?  Sorry, Social Media has been a nightmare for well over a decade.  Facebook was a nightmare when school kids first got their hands on it.  The hassles generated by comments quickly escalated time and time again, sometimes to the point where it needed police in to sort out.

I wonder if part of the reason for the major escalation we've seen in the political factionalism and extremism, especially among the right wing, stems from the ways governments around the world chose to deal with the Financial Crash of 2008.  The same with the Referendum outcome in the UK and Trump in the US.

The mainstream media has for far too long been viewed with suspicion.  Editorial bias has been seen as a problem for decades.  Ownership has been seen as a problem in the UK and we have a situation where there is a virtual monopoly on ownership of newspapers now.

When you add in the fact that the British electoral system tends to disenfranchise the majority of voters (think of the percentage of UK voters that actually voted for a Tory candidate, much less this shower of a government) and you have a recipe for disaster.

Mervyn King said in around 2011 that he felt that there was a palpable anger at the way the financial services industry did such damage to the UK economy.  I don't think he was even close to the truth of the situation.  Now .... 

[Leigh S]

Absolutely don't ChickenStu - I agree with the basic premise that there are people who just defy logic on all sides of any argument.  I've rolled my eyes at some clunky Nu Who line with the best of them, and I suspect you could find old me lamenting at length somewhere in thise very forum, mores the pity! You probably don't get too far by dismissing the notion of the existence of people who are in it for the likes, but those extreme voices fast become the whipping boys to stymie debate, or a kernel around which similar nuts can dominate the agenda - look at QAnon for an example of hwo fringe maniac stuff can actually start sticking...

Social media is certainly a big part of amplifying unhelpful voices - If you look at the JK Rowling stuff - She has some grotty and unfounded beliefs as far as I am concerned, but people piling in with threats and menace just poison the well and act as a convenient sideshow away from what should be the focus of our attention - it's a playbook that never gets old, which is why I in general object to the phrase "virtue signaller", as yeah, that's happening, but is that where we should be looking for the biggest villains?

I definitely agree Social Media is a potentially toxic and addictive replacemetn for actually going out and doing things, that's true.  but it is also potentially a positive force for people to raise their freak flag. I mean, sadly, it has been way too effective for Right Wingers to allow their own brand of virtue signalling, using phrases like "snowflake", "SJW" and "Virtue Signalling" to gain their own kind of approval and build their tribe.

I hope you don't think I'm one of these right wingers because I can assure you I'm not. I'm just being honest about how I feel right now.

Off topic slightly - Social Media has a lot to answer for. There has been a sharp rise in mental health issues, mainly in adolescent/teenage girls. The stats do not make for pleasant reading. All linked to the social media phenomenon. It's a catastrophe unfolding right in front of us.