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God it's been months since I last visited the board, let alone posted on it. Fatherhood and my Nintendo DS have pretty much taken up all my spare time. Anyway the reason I popped back in for a look was to see what you guys made of the latest Dredd story arc. The artwork is shite but the story is cracking. As for which character dies, well it pretty much looks like all of them at the minute. And did Rennie have to ask John to let him massacre his supporting characters? Anyway, nice to be back, even if it's only for today. See you around.

Matt

My guess based on this week's prog:

Giant - dead
Guthrie & Rico - horribly maimed
Vienna - survives

I hate to say this, but I don't care. The artwork has taken all the joy out of this storyline for me.

But....

Maybe these maimings are red herrings and Hershey is up for the chop? I can't see Dredd being given the heave-ho by this artist, although the artwork is that bad maybe he has been and none of us have noticed.

It's annoying isn't it. He's really good at some bits (Vienna for a start is fairly good) but with others (Pasha is just Vin Diesel) especially the Judges it's not good.
I think his artwork would be fine for a MC1 story but not one that involves Judges.
Makes it look too cartoonish!
Certainly not someone that deserves to be bumping off major characters.
For a story that is a continuation of the very well done Fire and Ice story it's a massive letdown.

I actually reckon Rico and Giant will survive, but Vienna and Guthrie won't.

Rico will survive, hard to tell who'se head it was that came off but it wasn't Guthries or Giants but then they were closer to the blast.

I think Vienna might die. But one thing I've been thinking of, what do they expect Dredd to do in exchange? Give us your city and we'll let her go? He'd never agree to that but really what's the point behind it all? It's not a war so what?
I hope we find out!

Anything so obviosuly set up as 'A Major Death!' to me smacks of the sort of gimmicks people criticise American comics for.  We simply shouldn't know.  We should always be aware that whatever is happening, a judge's life is at risk.

As it is, I reckon Rico will survive, but wounded.  Giant Will survive.  Guthrie or Vienna will die, depending on which one John Wagner isn't bothered about losing.  

Personally I'd be tempted to think Vienna.  Wagner wrote those stories then handed the Rico/Vienna stuff over to Gordon.  Maybe there's some qualms about whwther Dredd having a civilian family member really works.  Uisng some of that rational, it could be rico, but personally I think everyone injured so far will pull through (apart from the extras) and Vienna will bite it.

I haven't been a big fan of the story, the plot has ranged from ludicrous to not badly done.  The art overall is pretty good, but lets itself down every now and then.  The rico explosive gargle and the flying head were pretty embarressing.

I'm probably just being a predictable curmudgeon by saying all of the above and that Wagner does it so much better.  I much before the dryness of his writing to the slightly hysterical soap opera/thriller feel.  Having said that, beyond Wagner, Wagner/Grant and early Mills Dredd, Gordon's stuff is about the best were likely to get.  I don't really see anyone else who gets it right half as often, and there's more Dredd material required than one writer could manage on their own.

It seems an awfully long time since the joys of Total War now.  But we've had some nice PJ Maybe in the meg, and really looking forward to Mandroid.  It's funny, I have quite mixed feelings about the Dredd strip these days.  Every time I'm about to give up on it we get something really good.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble.

Well, trying to decipher the explosion sequence, it does appear that Giant shielded Guthrie from the blast so I'm guessing he's a goner.

Vienna surviving would be interesting, as it would force Dredd to confront what keeping in contact with her & having an interest outside the law has done: killed two of his closest colleagues and best judges, and maimed his clone-brother.

"I much prefer the dryness of his writing"

Sorry, it's hot, and there's loads of other typos in there as usual, I just can't be bothered to check em.

Actually, a good result would be one of the judges dying - Rico, and then Vienna being facehanged and packed off to brit cit.

But surely Guthrie would keel over with a heart attack at the slightest hint of trouble?

Or maybe just run off and start charging at windmills...

"Anything so obviosuly set up as 'A Major Death!' to me smacks of the sort of gimmicks people criticise American comics for."

Good point. Both Dredd & the current Sin/Dex have been pimped by Tharg as being "event" stories, IIRC, and I don't particularly like that.

It's a horribly artificial approach that slaps a "This is going to be a BIG story with WORLD-CHANGING REPERCUSSIONS!" label on the tale.

Vienna becomes brain dead and Rico's brain gets transplanted in her body? ;)

Guthrie's shameful secret:

Wasn't the death predictions for Blood Trails *only* from Gordon's 2000ADreview interview?

As such, it's not official HYPE! for the story - but leaked insider knowledge. Yer average squaxx on the street who doesn't keep up with us internet folk wouldn't know.

The death predictions may have been, but ISTR Tharg's column in the Nerve Centre having pimped both stories in those terms over the past few months.

I'll have a squizz...

There's no shame in a false moustache...

Heh! Probably not, provided it's an official Solar Wind (TM) 'tache...

i think that the artwork is better then the old stuff

What do you mean by "old stuff"?

Don't take the bait...

They're not gonna make the same mistake twice by killing off another Judge Giant.

No, Giant's alive and destined for the Chief Judges seat (and I don't mean he's gonna get a piece of Hersheys ass!)

I?m really not enjoying this Dredd tale that much.  I liked Andrew Curries art on Doomsday, and the detective nature of that strip suits the nature of this ? IIRC he was hooked up with Stephen Tappin, who did some dreadful Rogue Trooper art, but worked really well with Curries pencils.  The art here is OK, but it has deteriorated, and the Judges do look silly.  Vienna as bimbo isn?t helping (though the script is painting her as more of an airhead than we?ve previously seen her, so maybe that?s appropriate)

For me, the problems are much more with the story than the art.  I dislike the tendency for other writers to do Team-Up tales, overusing characters like
Giant and Guthrie. Well, maybe not overused, but I really like Wagners underuse of characters ? it makes things all the more believable in a City the size of the Meg.

The whole ?who?s going to die? thing is also a real negative on this tale ? hell on any tale.  I?d much rather be surprised than be forewarned ? stop telling us, Tharg!  I can?t see the point of it.  You?d have to kill off Dredd to actually get any kind of boost in sales and it ruins the story.

Dredd and his top quality Judges haven?t really displayed much quality.  Dredd is responsible for Viennas plight ? knowing that she could be going out with a killer, would he really not have hauled him in for questioning, or at least kept a track on her?  They have stumbled into pretty obvious deathtraps, and tbh, I?m almost inclined to think ?serves you right? for being so monumentally careless when they know who they are dealing with.

Vienna is pretty dim as well.  Her reaction to her friends death was to jump into bed with this fellah, then after finding out he had an unspecified criminal record, running off with him (via a suspicious third party lift). Personally, from previous tales, I would have thought the death would have seen her agoraphobia and depression kick in, but I suppose it?s not as unlikely as Dredds reactions.

This is probably overly picky ? Once one thing doesn?t ring right, I tend to start unpicking other bits (classic example being that ?Dalek? episode, which I?d kind of enjoyed until I started mulling over the whole human DNA angle).

I suppose all of these little niggles could have been overlooked if the rest of the tale had offered something thrilling or new or really clever, but its all felt a bit by the numbers for me.

On many levels I agree with The Watcher, as can be seen from my previous posts on the weekly prog threads.

However, I've started to enjoy the story, and having thought about it, I can see reasons for Dredds apparent poor judgement.

Remember, he feels guilty and responsible regarding Vienna.  This has been explored quite a lot over the past couple of years.  With this emotional invovlment his judgement is impaired.  Instead of arresting Pasha he allows himself to be pushed out of the apartment by Vienna:  you can imagine him thinking "Is she right?  Am I being over-protective?"

Given time to think about it, he goes for surveillance, and when he realises that the city might be under threat he judges Vienna unimportant in favour of finding out what the Sovs are up to.  Yes, it's poor judgement, but maybe he's over-compensating because he knows he's emotionally involved.

As for the whole "who dies?" question, I thought that Tharg had nothing to do with that:  it all started up because of something Gordon Rennie said in an interview (which he didn't actually link directly to this story) and was picked up and played with by the internet fan community.  Our fault, not Thargs.  

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I'll raise it here and apologies if I missed it.

The fan boy part of me can live with bad art. I've seen it before and will again.

What I don't like, though, is the fact that he is showing stuff which is illegal in MC-1. AFAIK, artists are allowed to fill out the background to frames as they see fit. But surely there must be some bible making it clear what isn't allowed?

For example, in Prog 1446 - why is there a coffee pot behind Roffman? Isn't that illegal? And this week (1447) why does the cabbie have a nodding judge figure on his dashboard (last frame)? Both are illegal, creep!

God, what a saddo I am. But still...

Synthi-caff and the precedent set by the PI4 case (Kenny Who?) could explain both.

Who's the saddo now?

I think you may well right about the leak, Fate, which in some ways is more odd.  Sorry Tharg (this time?)!
I can see how the whole clouded judgement thing is an explanation and potentially interesting character stuff but it hasn't really worked for me ? and haven?t we been here before to some degree?

The last time we had a similar situation, Dredd handed in his badge for giving Vienna preferential treatment.  Hershey told Dredd there was no blame in this.  Now Dredd could have gone one of two ways from here.  He could have vowed never to let his judgement be impaired or influenced again, or he could have decided that Hershey was right.  Now, from Dredds behaviour here, it?s more the latter, drafting in his best buds to help out, which isn?t really a problem, given that?s the road he?s chosen.  However, it?s his incompetence that seems a stretch too far for me.  He?s willing to give Vienna preferential treatment in investigating the murder, but also willing to put her at deeper risk by allowing her to push him out of the Apartment, leaving her in a room with a guy who claims to come from the same place as the potential murder victim (and not just any murder, but a professional hit?). He may be feeling guilty, but guilty enough to cloud years of experience and instinct?  

Personally, I would have found it more interesting to have seen Dredd go the other way, and not pull any favours ? maybe Rico then taking up the protective mantle and then both being put in danger through Dredd standing back.  Maybe Rico bites a bullet when he decides to bring in Pasha for questioning (as opposed to Dredd being pushed out) ? then he takes Vienna hostage, and Dredd is in the same position as he is now, but less (directly) responsible.

As is, it?s a bit of an odd mix of Dredd being over-protective on one hand, yet incompetent and ineffectual on the other ? Pasha must have a pretty low opinion of the Justice Dept given how easily he?s ran rings around them ? he?s hardly been a criminal mastermind.

There?s also the bit where Guthrie and Giant have a second chance to bring Pasha in for questioning, but they decide to smack him in the mouth instead.  Now which is likely to be best in terms of judicial process (20 years on Titan for Guthrie, methinks), safer for Vienna, and effective, especially since the guy at this stage could be innocent?

Yeah, I totally see what you mean.  The only way I can qualify it is with the "impaired judgement" theory.  You're right:  it's very impaired.

What I'm hoping is that (when the dust settles) there will be some official comeuppance for Dredd from Hershey.  He's made a balls up on this case.  When McGruder displayed poor judgement over The Warlord threat, she took the long walk.  When she displayed poor judgement over the Mechanismo program, Dredd resigned (didn't he?).

So, he's displayed poor judgement.  What's going to be done about it?

If the answer is "nothing", then I will be very disappointed in Blood Trails.

When I opened om the first page,I thought;"welcome to Legoland with Judge Dredd."

Then I thought "way back when I was a kid I wanted to draw for twothousand AD and Mike Mcmahon led me to believe I could achieve that goal.Is this not what Andrew Currie is doing in his own right?"

Then I thought"But Rennies script is far too full of hazardous conotations for the younger reader so how is the younger reader going to be bothered with the art anyway?"

Anyway I saw the head. It may be Giants it may be a red jersey. I didnt care,I just though" that Andy Currie likes to put meat on the bones of a good shoot out doesn't he?"

And not a good Lawmaster apparently.

maybe none of it i real and it's all a movie Vienna is acting in?

As I can?t stand comic hype any longer - House of M anybody? shudder - I don?t read Nerve Centre :-)

So at least I wasn?t spoiled. I liked the story so far. But the art really robbed it of impact. Disappointing.

I think the whole Vienna stuff added some interesting stuff for Dredd. He obviously cares, which should make him uncomfortable.

Another point. What I also like is the Sov subplot. Such stuff is generally out of favour, as the real world moved on a lot, but in Dredd?s world it has a history, and I truly enjoy that there wasn?t an editorial mandate to change this. For me it speak volumes of integrety and respect for the worldbuilding.

I'm sorry to say that if Max's theory turns out to be correct I will probably be happier with this strip than I currently am.

Maybe Vin Diesel's demands will surprise us all?  After all, what is the point of everything he's been doing?


Theories & problems:

Theory #1): 80's Rambo clone.  Wheelchair-bound Sov has been allowed to use the top assassin, plus the depleted network of Sov spies in the Meg, on a pure revenge mission.  Pasha is going to lure Dredd into a killzone and dispose of him.
Problem: What a stupid idea.  What a waste of resources.  What an unlikely plan, especially from a "genetically engineered genius".

Theory #2): The Vienna MacGuffin.  It's all a massive diversion, keeping Dredd and his mates occupied while the Sovs make their real move elsewhere.  Maybe they assassinate Hershey, or nick Walter's recipe for synthi-lollies, or whatever.  Unlike theory #1, this would at least feel a bit more like a Dredd plot.
Problem: This diversion relies on Dredd acting totally out of character, based on a relationship the Sov's weren't even certain of at the start of the story.  It relies on his bringing his mates in.  It relies on Guthrie and Giant not following standard Justice department protocol.  In fact, the only thing that Kazclone couldn't predict, it seems, is which pick-up lines would work on Vienna.  Also, why bring in Pasha at such a late stage, if he's their top assassin?

Theory #3): "It was all a movie".  Nothing that we've seen has been real.  Rico didn't get his jaw blown away, Dredd doesn't really have no nose.  It's just a movie, or a dream, or something.
Problem: This is what is referred to in the industry as 'fan-wank'.  Rennie's better than that.

Theory #4): Reality.  A script with a fair few weaknesses is having them brutally exposed by some very substandard art.

Any more for any more?

Theory #4): Reality. A script with a fair few weaknesses is having them brutally exposed by some very substandard art.

Problem: We have to read it!

Ive looked and looked at Dredd this week.

I know we can end up nodding at each other over the art and murmering agreement but I want to say this.


Overall Andy Currie cannot, or is not, putting a foot wrong with the series.

I am taking into great acceptio, his work on the explosion panels in the last two panes of page three,Dredd story. Also, I am loving his shadow work mid-page two with Guthrie,sizing up the apartment. Infact the whole second half of the page again is well done.

Some may call it a pattern .Some may call it luck.I am seeing the bargain Rennie and Currie have made about this sequital now.Its not about the uniform.Its not about the upholding of justice.
I dont know what it is, I only know its not even about the bikes.

There is a deeper change going on in the Meg and as Ive said before and Ill say now. In visualising it for us I dont think Andy Currie is putting one foot wrong. No matter how much he loves or hates the script.

I hope i'm right and i hope i'm not. It's nto a very good way for those characters to go, but it'll seem like such as waste of time it if it's fake. But, it could be fake, and dredd will have to decide where his loyalties lie, family or law, as he has to sentance Vienna for taking part in this just to spite him?

Vienna hasn't actually commited any crimes, other then possibly 'assualting a judge' when she pushed him out the apt. That would be at the discression of Dredd to judge, but I don't think he'd book her for that. He's stronger then her, he willingly let her push him out - he could easily have stood his ground.
You can't really say she was aiding & abetting, as soon as she finds out who Pasha is, she becomes kidnapped.

i meant taking part in an ilegal vid show parodying 'real' judges.

Nah, Max. Can't be a vid. The citizens don't know about PSU, do they?

:: "i meant taking part in an ilegal vid show parodying 'real' judges."

Didn't the recent PI4 Kenny Who? case in the Meg set a precedent whereby it was okay to parody a Judge as long as the uniform was suitably different?

I thought the Kenny Who loophole was that, since the uniforms were sufficiently different, the characters couldn't be considered judges and thus he wasn't considered to be parodying them; otherwise, he'd have been stuffed.

but they used different names, eg: dread

Hmm, Rico looks like he'll be ok with a bit of surgery.

You surely couldn't have Giant killed when he's essentially being a bit of a backround character for Guthrie. Especially after the kerfuffle his father's death caused. Surely?

Surprised to see so much criticism of this story though, I've enjoyed it. I can usually ignore niggles witht the artwork, although I only really paid attention to the 'no nose' thing cos I read it on here. Not really fussed about the famous actor faces, as they are face-changes. The only thing I thought of criticising was the way Vienna seemed to have a face change so she looked exactly like Oola Blint did recently. But I won't.

Rico though. OUCH!

As for judges don't forget that it can be regulated and certain popular shows might be able to use the likeness with permission. All a part of public relations. Because if you wanted to be picky they are making a joke of hiding aliens and other crimes not just the horny judges.

PROG 1448 SPOILER!





PROG 1448 SPOILER!






PROG 1448 SPOILER!






So it wasn't Giant's head after all, Rico's still alive and they've found bits of Guthrie (presumably his zimmerframe).

I reckon someone else is still going to get it.

You just don't know how tempting it was to read that post.

I had to hold my hand in front of my face so I didn't accidentally read it when pressing the "reply" button.

Mantra:  "wait till Monday...wait till Monday"

Gaah, I find Rennie's Dredd really inconsitent. For me he doens't quite have a grip on Dredd properly, although he's got the meg itself down to a tee, and its citizens. It's his mis-representations of Dredd that annoy, (as with here), and why oh why does he over-use characters SO BLOODY MUCH?! Every Rennie-penned Dredd I seem to read features Dredd, Rico, Hershey, Giant, Guthrie and, erm, others.

(And I'd gone into a scrolling daze on this thread. I went right past 'spoilers' without even registering it until I was reading what happens... once again, Gaaah!)

that's why you want spoilers

Well, having just listened to David Bishop's "Get Karter", which has Dredd throwing a perp out of a window *after* subduing him, and apparently taking pleasure in it, I'm not moaning about Rennie's occasional odd characterisations...

Hmm, point taken, and now that you mention it, Pat Mills' depictions of Dredd can be rather off at times (on the rare occassions he has done it).

BOOT

Take that, Rennie - that'll teach you to not be John Wagner!
Learning process.  Wait and see.