The Political Thread

[COMMANDO FORCES]

When the next Progcast goes online, you'll all know who I vote for, as we chat about the democratic election at the start. I'm sure some of you may be surprised

[Tjm86]

Whilst this may be more appropriate for the What are you listening to Thread, I've been enjoying Floyd's The Final Cut.  Digging into the lyrics a bit more I cam across this quote from Waters:

"The Final Cut was about how, with the introduction of the Welfare State, we felt we were moving forward into something resembling a liberal country where we would all look after one another ... but I'd seen all that chiselled away, and I'd seen a return to an almost Dickensian society under Margaret Thatcher. "

Now thirty years later it seems that we can remove the word almost.

[HdE]

Discussion of politics isn't usually my bag, hence I tend to stay out of this thread. But I did see something today that mde me sit up and go 'really?'

Apparently, Cameron wants to put unemployed young people into work for 30 hours a week.

Now, this has already drawn some commentary online focusing on the 'unjust' aspect of this, some people likening it to slave labour, etc... but really, I think it's more interesting to consider how it shows just how clueless Cameron et al are.

Fact: Young people are leaving our schools incapable of working.

Really What skills do the country's schools teach youngsters? Even when I was in secondary school (I left in 1993) my generation were being told 'none of the stuff you learn here is useful. You'll have to go into further education and then further training to become employable.' Part of that was a sales pitch to push us deeper into the education system... but it wasn't half true.

I can't imagine WHERE these unemployed youngsters are going to work. I can't imagine many institutions or agencies wanting to deal with raw recruits they'll need to spend time training, and quite possibly replacing frequently.

To say nothing of the fact that, unfortunately, you cant force anyone to work who doesn't want to. And no, that doesn't wash as a description of all young folks by any means - but realistically, it WILL describe a lot of people clogging up that particular avenue into work.

Coincidentally, I see Prince Harry has spoken favourably about the idea of bringing back national service.

I shudder to think what could be on the horizon.

[Colin YNWA]

On top of that the Tories are cutting deep into FE so even if folk want to go to a place to learn those skills the options for doing so in a well resourced local environment are diminishing.

[Professor Bear]

my generation were being told 'none of the stuff you learn here is useful. You'll have to go into further education and then further training to become employable.'

People on work training are being told that explicitly by the people who who run the programs - though further education has now been removed as an option by mandate from the DWP so you are explicitly forbidden from FE during your workfare courses, never mind getting a discount.  I've been on several work training programs, and not a single person involved in running them has ever said that those programs were in any way useful - the closest was when one suggested that we talk amongst ourselves and exchange details in case we ever had an odd job going.  The staff were uniformly useless and clueless, with one or two exceptions who seemed lovely but were far too honest about what went on behind the curtain: in a nutshell, they're told that the people they'll be dealing with were dregs and that they should do their best to dissuade anyone from making an effort.  Each year, the companies that run these programs - they're run privately, naturally - either renew their contracts somewhere else or change their names so that complaints or business reviews can't catch up with them.  One of the staffers was even saying how someone had got fired for ordering too much company stationary, as they'd never be around long enough to need more than two of everything apart from pens, which have to be ordered in boxes, so if you go into a Workfare program and they're giving out pens like they won't be needing them soon, now you know why.
The staff generally seem to be just as trapped as the people on the programs, too, as one was saying that she and her colleagues were just temp workers with no training in management or teaching, and that their temp agencies got paid more for them taking the courses than they did for actually taking the courses.
So basically, more money is being spent than before, for less return, and the end result is not trained or motivated workers but angry (boy were the people forced onto those programs angry!) and increasingly bitter people who have no reason to believe they'll ever get a fair deal from an employer so they're probably better off sponging off benefits instead.

As for who's going to train untrained and unmotivated staff, why other untrained and unmotivated staff will do that, of course!  How much training do you think you need to stack a shelf?

[Hawkmumbler]

On top of that the Tories are cutting deep into FE so even if folk want to go to a place to learn those skills the options for doing so in a well resourced local environment are diminishing.

Aye, and don't we know it! 

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

The most important asset any candidate for employment has is experience.

Obviously, those leaving education won't have any, and it doesn't really matter how practical or otherwise their education was, it doesn't carry the same weight.

Therefore employers needs to identify suitable candidates in this group by looking at their qualifications, interviewing them and working out if the long months of training required are going to be worth it.

The natural inclination amongst businesses is not to bother as it's too much trouble, but taking on new members of the workforce is a social responsibility. Therefore, I would prefer the government to be focusing on making businesses, as well as public-sector organisations, do the right thing and not try to punish kids for being young, which seems to be the current plan.

[Professor Bear]

An experienced worker knows what they're worth, which might not be ideal for new or struggling businesses.  Or corporations.
I don't think kids are being punished so much as being trained to occupy the lowest rung on society's ladder so that there's a viable underclass of slaves available to prop up corporate workforces.  The DWP is making people work for nothing, helping normalise the idea of slavery in the easiest way possible - by villifying the poor and the unemployed so that as a society we think they deserve it.

[The Legendary Shark]

S'right. School's there to teach you only two things; a bit of general knowledge and your place.

[Stan]

Swearing in as a lowly MP. It must be soul destroying for a few seconds, before pondering 'What other jobs in Britain guarantee me a whopping five year salary regardless of how crap I am at the job?'.

[Tjm86]

Fact: Young people are leaving our schools incapable of working.

Really What skills do the country's schools teach youngsters?

This is a much repeated complaint that goes back a lot further than the nineties.  The problem is it is precisely that, a complaint.  It is trotted out as a fact and to be fair there are youngsters that give a lot of credibility to the complaint.  My big problem is that it ignores another development over the last several decades:  companies have decimated their training budgets and now have sometimes excessively high expectations of new staff. 

I can think of several jobs that I have held in which I was expected to be able to do the job completely independently and competently after a few hours (if that) of 'training'.  Being experienced enough this was not a major issue.  School leavers are not completely prepared for this, as are a number of people who have left school several years previously.  Are employers' expectations realistic in light of the current widely held belief that they have no obligation to provide effective support and training to new staff?

What skills do schools teach youngsters?  A wide range that provide the basis for them to be able develop more specific skills in the future.  Literacy, numeracy, basic historical, geographical and social awareness, a basic understanding of science, ICT skills, problem solving, team working, creativity ....  There are youngsters that fail to develop these skills effectively and they are a significant minority but they are not the whole picture. 

It is a shame that we as a society no longer value our obligation to help them get started, a situation that is highly likely to accelerate over the next five years.

[JamesC]

Fact: Young people are leaving our schools incapable of working.

Really What skills do the country's schools teach youngsters?

This is a much repeated complaint that goes back a lot further than the nineties.  The problem is it is precisely that, a complaint.  It is trotted out as a fact and to be fair there are youngsters that give a lot of credibility to the complaint.  My big problem is that it ignores another development over the last several decades:  companies have decimated their training budgets and now have sometimes excessively high expectations of new staff. 

I can think of several jobs that I have held in which I was expected to be able to do the job completely independently and competently after a few hours (if that) of 'training'.  Being experienced enough this was not a major issue.  School leavers are not completely prepared for this, as are a number of people who have left school several years previously.  Are employers' expectations realistic in light of the current widely held belief that they have no obligation to provide effective support and training to new staff?

What skills do schools teach youngsters?  A wide range that provide the basis for them to be able develop more specific skills in the future.  Literacy, numeracy, basic historical, geographical and social awareness, a basic understanding of science, ICT skills, problem solving, team working, creativity ....  There are youngsters that fail to develop these skills effectively and they are a significant minority but they are not the whole picture. 

It is a shame that we as a society no longer value our obligation to help them get started, a situation that is highly likely to accelerate over the next five years.

I agree with this.
Having said that, I think we really fail a lot of youngsters in that we don't give them enough awareness of what to expect, and what life is, outside of the work/home bubble.
There are many youngsters that barely see the world outside of their home, their school and the roads in between. I'm not saying this is the school's fault and I'm not saying it's the parent's fault but I think it's something that needs to be improved.

[Tjm86]

There are many youngsters that barely see the world outside of their home, their school and the roads in between. I'm not saying this is the school's fault and I'm not saying it's the parent's fault but I think it's something that needs to be improved.

This is a massive challenge, even greater in communities such as some of ours in the Welsh valleys that still haven't recovered from the eighties and the loss of the mining industry.  Despite millions in European funding having been thrown at the problem there is still little or nothing to show.  The opportunities for kids to develop this understanding is virtually non existent as there is no business or industry left (even the dole office is slowly going ironically enough). 

Don't get me started on school work experience.  This is a colossal waste of time and effort.  The vast majority of kids spend a week watching employers work.  No effort is made either before or after to prepare the kids properly for the experience, help them to draw out any learning from the experience and learn how to apply it.  The lucky ones get a week in somewhere like Mcdonalds or telco's where they can get practical experience and employability skills.  The unlucky ones end up with solicitors or architects watching them work and making tea or coffee, all so they can 'experience' the job.  Really, experience a job that requires a degree, a postgraduate qualification and years of training?  All without a GCSE to your name!  [.... and breathe!, sorry rant over]

[Banners]

There's a Half Price on Humanity.

(And a killer bass line).

[JayzusB.Christ]

Tomorrow I'll find out whether my country is moving out of the Dark Ages, or whether it's still run by the bone-rattling bigots and their head-in-the-sand followers.
Me, I hope it's the latter, and if it's the former, I'll get Big Dave over, because I hate them poofs, me.  [spoiler](Of course I don't.)[/spoiler]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/22/irish-voters-set-to-make-history-in-gay-marriage-referendum