The Political Thread

[Richmond Clements]

Was it the then Labour government that started using private companies in the NHS?

Yes. And it has been accelerated by the Tories.

[Spikes]

Just been watching this documentary on Britain First on the iplayer. Truly sickening. Blind ficking racism. I'm shaking with anger after watching this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06g59c3/we-want-our-country-back

I watched about 5 minutes of that and had to switch off - I already know they're cunts, didn't feel there was anything new to learn and it was making me too angry

"This is a Christian country, and it always has been..."

I made it to about the 5 second mark....

I find the perfect antidote to 'Britain first' is 'Celtic Britain first' - which you can find over on facebook.

No more Saxon's! We are full!!
Saxon's? Scroungers! Christian's? Scroungers! Roman's? Scroungers!  etc, etc...

[ZenArcade]

Nu-labour would fit handsomely into my definition of a right wing moneterist set up....had any of the gang of three won the leadership of the Labour Party, I feel they would have been at best tacitly sympathetic to TTIP. Z

[Professor Bear]

They've been quiet about it since, but Kendall and Cooper were openly supportive of TTIP before the public opposition became unavoidable.  Burnham was likely waiting to see what way the wind was blowing before committing either way.

[Professor Bear]

Fresh from election victory, the Portugese left has been forbidden from forming a government because of their anti-austerity policies: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11949701/AEP-Eurozone-crosses-Rubicon-as-Portugals-anti-euro-Left-banned-from-power.html

[The Legendary Shark]

I don't find this, if it's true, to be surprising. The majority of governments have been hi-jacked and watered down until they're little more than local parish councils. They allow us the illusion of control by giving us a vote but if we use it in a way they don't like it's called spoiled or invalid. The Greeks voted for anti-austerity and were told no. Now the Portuguese. Nor is our own government exempt from these higher deciders, whoever they are, or whoever they think they are.

If the government you vote for isn't allowed to do what you told it to do, what good is it?

[Old Tankie]

No good.

[The Legendary Shark]

Who Will Fix the Roads?
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In trying to imagine a stateless, anarchist society, the above question always pops up and I never had an answer I found convincing, until now.
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(Before I begin, a note about context. The idea I'm about to explore is done so from the viewpoint of an imagined future where the state as we know it has already evaporated and the flaws in the money creation and handling systems have been solved. There is no arbitrary taxation (theft) or license fees - every penny a person earns belongs to that person, nothing can be taken without contract and/or consent.)
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So, without a coercive state, who will fix the roads? The answer is simple - the same people who fix them now: privately owned and run companies specialising in road maintenance.
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But who pays for it?
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You do, of course. But, without a central coercive state to collect taxes (under threat of punishment for refusing), how to sort out your payment?
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I propose what I'm going to call the Social Infrastructure Donation, or SID. If you decide to pay "taxes" towards the roads, you do so through a private SID company. These companies calculate what an individual's "fair share" of the nation's, or local region's, running costs are. This figure is purely a suggestion - you can pay more, less or not at all. Payment can only be encouraged, not enforced.
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The SID company collects your voluntary contributions as and when you decide to make them (standing order, directly from your wages, check or cash payments, a neighbourhood SID collector, etc.) and splits it amongst public services to your specification - although the SID companies will be able to tailor your donations individually, they will probably offer standard packages where more of your donation goes into the NHS than the roads, or vice-versa. The SID companies profit by charging a small percentage off your donation.
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So all the basics can be covered the same way.
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But there's one more wrinkle to SID companies. You can pay for just the basics if you want but there might be an option for more. For example, you may wish to subsidise the arts or sciences as well. Let's imagine a specialist SID company springs up called "Scientific SID" which does all the things a normal SID company does and also offers specialised scientific subsidies. You might choose to use some of your money to subsidise physics research, pharmaceutical research, weapons research, SETI, archaeology or whatever.
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Of course, you wouldn't have to be aware of all the research projects in the world and pick the ones you like as Scientific SID employs experts to seek out worthwhile projects and good bets. You choose the area you want to subsidise an Scientific SID handles the specifics. This leads to the possibility of your subsidy donation buying into a scientific breakthrough on the ground floor and paying you a return on your investment, which you can spend, invest, save or donate as you choose.
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Other specialist SID companies might cater for donators (the Libertarian equivalent of "tax-payers") who wish to lean more towards the arts (maybe gaining dividends from a successful album, film, tv show or book), sports (dividends from gate-takings/prizes/other deals), business (dividends from successful start-ups) and so on.
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I can't think of many coercive government tax systems that not only give the tax payers control over how their money is spent but also offer the prospect of making a profit!
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So anyway, that's one way for an anarchist society to fund its infrastructure without centralised coercive theft (taxation). The truly free market can do everything government does - and it can do it cheaper, smarter and faster.

[NapalmKev]

I understand what you're saying but I still believe you put too much faith in the prospect of everyone behaving reasonably towards one another.

If some people refused to pay into this system would they be barred from using the roads? And if not, wouldn't those that have paid be entitled to kick up a fuss about it?

I'm all for a radical change in the Political System but the thing that gets in the way of it is 'Humanity' in general. Not everyone's a greedy Fucker, admittedly, but there's enough that are, and without some form of 'Authority' (that is subject to the wishes of the people) who would decide what happens?

Cheers

[The Legendary Shark]

There are people who refuse to pay right now, there always will be. The SID companies I propose can't be set up tomorrow, they are a concept to be worked towards. Entrepreneurs will find a way to make SID companies attractive to as many people as possible, perhaps through running lotteries or something.
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As I said, the above idea is an end-point down the line some. For it to work, the idea must first take hold and be debated and improved.
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Who would decide what happens about what? Generally speaking, the people decide by giving their custom to the SID company with the best reputation. A prestigious SIDco would send out trained inspectors to check the road maintenance company is doing its job properly. They do this on your behalf as part of the service they offer (just as supermarkets today send out inspectors to suppliers' factories and farms). A company found wanting might be dropped in favour of a better one, especially if several SIDcos had issues with the same companies.
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Decisions come down to economics and the political shielding of friends in high places no longer exists. You pick the SIDco you trust the most to make sure your donation's well-spent. If you're not bothered about that, you can play the SID Lottery. And if you can't or won't pay, you don't have to. That's freedom, I'm afraid. There will always be a few.
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Right now, the vast majority of people describe themselves as honest tax-payers; they take pride in the fact that they let the state rob them without making a fuss. It would only take a tiny nudge, a small change in perspective, for those people to start calling themselves proud donators, I think.

[IndigoPrime]

The problem is, once you start viewing infrastructure money as effectively charitable donations, income would fall off a cliff. Many people wouldn't pay for what 'they' don't use, even if it was for the greater good. Fundamentally, too many people are selfish — and I don't discount myself from that. I don't support every website I read, for example, via Patreon or other funding. Same thing, ultimately.

[Leigh S]

This sounds verymuch like the Big Society

Essentially, I get to choose where to spend what would have previously been taxes under this system, or keep it to myself.

Look at how the poor are demonised now - How many people would say "I'll pay to the Pensions SIDco, but not the job seekers one"  or "I'll pay to the Street Cleaning SIDco, but not to the Defence one" and so on and so on

Having an over arching "authority" that can apportion the money raised allows for the cash to go where it is most needed, if not efficiently, granted,  a hell of a lot more efficiently than the whims of millions of potentially prejudiced and biased and plain old refusnik individual choices.

Even if everyone was grown up enough to do this, they would also need to be informed enough about what costs they incur - maybe each person could be given a "you cost this much to these services" suggested spend... but then they say - "but I dont want to support x/y/z" and we are back to what seems an unworkable system

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Ah, Shark, that looks very much like a totally unworkable solution to a complete non-problem.

In actual political news, Scottish Labour just voted to support Corbyn and ditch Trident. I think a purge of the Blairites just edged closer, and to my mind one is essential if Jezza is going to avoid being deposed by right-leaning colleagues at the first sign of trouble.

[Professor Bear]

I don't think a purge is likely.  The Blairites are a minority in the Labour party, and an increasingly unpopular one the more they undermine their own party and insult their own voters - I think Jezza is just going to sit back and let that problem take care of itself.

[Tiplodocus]

It's World Vegan Day (apparently).

May whatever is on your plate today be healthy, tasty and full of compassion for this planet and all the beings that live on it.