The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks y'all for trying to cheer me up but I don't feel like I've won anything.
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What I can't get out of my head is the fear that in the future, maybe five or ten years from now, if things continue in the way they're going, will that same Council bod be sat there with his official policies and official forms deciding whether I should be put onto a train to take me to some 'Economic Resettlement Camp' or 'Productivity Zone' or something? Something that he's been told is for the good of myself and the good of the country?
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And will I give in then, too?
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A man who keeps an eye on the past is always blind in one eye but a man who looks only to the future is blind in both eyes.
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I know that sounds like alarmist hyperbole but I just can't shake it. Meh - I'm sure I'll be back to my old self in a day or two.

[ZenArcade]

My choice of words earlier was maybe too pejorative. You weren't 'defeated' sharky. As for your last post, the dark of winter, late at night isn't the time to dwell on hypotheticals. It'll never come to that 'resettement' thing. They'll never have enough rolling stock by then. Instead they'll send you a letter 'inviting' you to a togetherness forum at the local quarry. When you get there, some bland faced young guy with too much of the whites of his eyes showing will 'mechanically resocialise' you with a low calibare pistol! Welcome to the future 

[The Legendary Shark]

Nothing wrong with your choice of words, Zen my friend, nothing whatever.
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I'm sure the Jews and Gypsies thought it would never come to resettlement camps either. I'm sure the civil servants who did all the paperwork were equally sceptical. It's not as if they were told the real plan, they only knew and did as they were told.
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I can't accept 'it'll never happen' as an argument. See how human beings labelled as immigrants, benefit scum and (yes) even bankers are demonised and reviled as almost subhuman. How hard would it be to sell the idea of putting certain sections of society into some segregated area for the benefit of the country and its  good, hard working taxpayers? Not too hard at all, sadly.
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[Professor Bear]

Out of sight, out of mind - Britain already detains people with no criminal record in places like Yarl's Wood, where sexual misconduct upon female "guests" is not uncommon, and it's not too hard to imagine the same kind of care and attention being visited upon people living on the streets, or even in houses that may be out of their rental range and whom councils might want to "move elsewhere", as evidenced by the latest figures on people adversely affected by the bedroom tax - official figures say 4000 people erroneously affected (IE lied to), but freedom of information figures retrieved by Labour MPs reveal the number to be over 50,000.  The only thing missing right now, the only thing stopping them from rounding up the homeless, the poor, the mentally troubled and bunging them in a corner somewhere where they can be looked after by private contractors is the excuse they'd need to do so, because they're cunning lizards this current Tory lot, they learn the value of PR eventually because sooner or later a velociraptor does learn to use a doorknob.
It's not paranoia, me suggesting this, it's basic politics learned by happy accident in the US when Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans and the poorer - black - neighborhoods were depopulated for years after the event, changing the political landscape of one of the most blatantly liberal and multicultural cities in the bible belt overnight from a mostly-black local political scene to a bunch of very rich, very white folk being in charge.  Or maybe I am being a bit paranoid - I mean, it's not like there's any parts of Britain being flooded out and only the richer, more well-off areas more likely to contain those who will endorse conservative politicians are being prioritised by the relief effort, is it?

Not many people challenge their council at all and just roll over before the fight even starts, but if you are determined to view it as a loss, Sharky, it's still Sharky 2 Council 1.  The gentlemanly thing to do would be to rub this in their faces as best you can, and to keep reminding everyone that they harrass old women with deflected anger when they don't get their way.

[Frank]

even bankers are demonised and reviled as almost subhuman.

Yep - let's not forget that in depression hit Weimar Germany, it was the bankers and international finance which were made the focus of public hatred. Money and international organisation being established code words referring to another group entirely, of course. The politics of blame take you to some scary places.

[TordelBack]

Thanks y'all for trying to cheer me up but I don't feel like I've won anything.

Balls.  You fought them with honour and dignity, you delayed and inconvenienced them, you forced them to meet you in a compromise.  That's winning, that's how it goes when you're an individual and they're the power.  Imagine the world where every citizen fought for their principles like you do.  Only genocidal madmen insist on unconditional victory.

[The Legendary Shark]

You're right - all of you.
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I've had a very difficult night, churning things over in my mind, contemplating everything from the unthinkable to the impossible. I think I spat my dummy out when things didn't go exactly the way I wanted and reading your posts and PMs has made me see this. I apologise for whining and hope you can forgive me. As Bear said, it's still 2-1.
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But now the anger and disappointment are beginning to dissipate new strategies are emerging. New goals and fresh perspectives are becoming apparent based on the harsh lessons I'm learning and the perspectives you have exposed me to.
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This isn't over. It's not even half-time.

[Proudhuff]

You did the right thing Sharkie, used your brain not your brawn, picked your battles and gave a bit ground, your still here and ready for the next round if they chose to come back, that's winning in my book.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Poudhuff's right, you know.  I remember you (Shark) posting this earlier in the thread:

If my landlord wishes to get involved in criminal activities then that's something I can't prevent. I can, however, refuse to get involved. If they leave me alone then I'll leave them alone, within reason.

From how you've explained the outcome, you have something of a result there.  As you say, even though the HB is being paid, you've done nothing whatsoever to accommodate this situation.  Unless I've misunderstood things, they're pretty much organising your HB themselves without your involvement - all you've done is listened to them telling you that it would happen.

As you say, it's something you can't prevent, but you've stood by your principles from start to finish.  Without losing your home during apocalyptically bad weather.  Sounds ok to me.

[The Legendary Shark]

Latest: Just had a very interesting meeting with a local councillor of long standing whom I trust. He's eager to help me, particularly in regards to getting an apology to my Mum from the Council and also in the area of questioning the way this whole process has been handled and formulating suggestions for the future.
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One thing I don't think I've mentioned is that I have been regularly billing the Council for dealing with their letters (banks charge for writing letters so I do too) and fines for breaching the clearly posted Legal Notice on my front door (which basically says that anyone turning up without an appointment is liable to a £5,000 fine). The bills also have Late Payment Charges built in so that any bill which is not paid within 28 days incurs a charge of £25 per week per unpaid bill (which is how I see debt collectors off). The total owing on the Council's bill, which they have simply ignored (NEVER ignore your bills, right?) is now £39,100. This is a great lever which I will soon start using in earnest as a completely legal and valid bargaining chip.
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A small and unimportant thing but maybe worth a mention; last Tuesday night as I was walking the dog his name tag fell off and blew away. I heard it go but it was stormy that night and I didn't realise what the tinkling noise was until I got home. I do try not to be superstitious but the fact that the dog's tag (with my address on it) had gone missing seemed like an evil omen and it played on my mind. I retraced my steps several times but could find no sign of it, which seemed like an eviller omen. Today I found it, in precisely the area where I'd lost it, right out in the open where nobody could miss it, in a place I've combed every day since. I'm going to take this as a good omen!
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Lastly, am I monopolising this thread? Should I start another or just shut up about all this?

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[TordelBack]

'S your thread, Sir, and it'd take a braver man than I to try to evict The Legendary Shark from what is rightly his.  Current subject matter would seem to me to represent issues at the heart of the system and how it relates to individuals, and broader matters of monetary theory, taxation and rights.  I'd say keep it all here. 

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks, Tordels, that's pretty much what I was thinking (except that I can't claim ownership of this thread - it belongs primarily to Rebellion, I think - and I don't think I have any special rights or privileges just because I happened to start it).
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Just thought I'd better ask as I can get pretty self-absorbed at times - which I'm sure you've all noticed! :-D
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[Mikey]

Howdy! Just had a bit of an epic read there...it's all happening round Sharky's gaff! Time for my tuppence to be deployed...

First of all - I can only admire someone who will stick to their principles. My personal view is that you have to deal with the world the way you feel it should be and don't be fooled it's all totally gone to shite. It was always shit for most of the populace through history and you need to recognise there is still beauty left, for want of a better term. But there's nothing wrong with compromise. In the end you did the right thing allowing the housing benefit to be paid in my opinion. As someone who has made contributions to the coffers of Westminster I can honestly say the best reason for doing so is to provide welfare to help people, despite your views on the whole damning nature of money as a concept. I'm glad it hasn't come to you being turfed out on your anal fin. I'd say this to anyone, but there's no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face either. If more people decided they didn't want to accept welfare from the state they might decide no one wants or needs it at all - and a lot of people have nothing else.

Secondly - if this whole thing ever gets to a court the magistrate will either applaud you for sticking it to the council, as in my experience a lot of them aren't really very keen on public servants, or he will throw whatever book he pleases at you for titting people about. If it does come to that, I advise not going on about Common Law. I think it's probably shaky ground to base a defence on. The magistrate will not appreciate being told what the law is or should be and if there is any legislation that covers these issues, no matter what they will be bound to uphold it. I know you've read up on a lot of stuff but I'm basing this on my experience - they really don't like smart arses.

Thirdly - see you billing the council for letters an all that, and your charges? You've read up about what constitutes a contract so it might be covered by the The Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 (and regs 2002 I think). If it is you can charge the base rate of interest plus 8% on late payments, plus seek compensation for reasonable costs in recovering the debt (set out in the regs I believe). It probably doesn't cover it, but thought I'd mention it for the crack.

And on side note, there was mention of not demonising people but yet you say that civil servants turn the handle of the meat grinder and that the Nazi civil servants filled out the paper work without an idea of the consequences. Do you mean those in Westminster or the people who are dealing with you personally? Anyone you've dealt with is a person who's trying to get by by having a job to pay their bills and determine their life as best thay can. You can't equate them to fuckin Nazis lightly! To me that's taking a moral high ground that's unjustified. There was a fuck load of admin needed to defeat the Nazis too like.

Keep 'er lit. I'll post about comics soon.

M.

[Professor Bear]

Yeah, it's pretty unfair to call council workers Nazis.  They're only obeying orders.

[ZenArcade]

 very good .....................hey I'm a civil servant as well