My God's bigger than your God!

[The Prodigal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01mqvmv/Rosh_Hashanah_Science_vs_Religion/

Anyone watch this last night? Dawkins involved. I thought it was good stuff and well worth a watch.

[Spaceghost]

On the question of whether an atheist can be spiritual; based on the definitions given in example here, yes, but I strongly object to the word 'spiritual' as it implies the involvement of some sort of supernatural element.

Also, the word 'spiritual' reminds me of the kind of vague, half arsed, airy-fairy bullshit that I've heard too many white people with 'dreadlocks' barf out at me over the years, along with talk of 'energies in the room' and 'auras' and all that other arsewash.

I prefer to think of the feelings of calm and 'oneness with the world' that comes from meditation, tranquility and peaceful contemplation not as 'spirituality', but as a clarity of mind. Maybe it's the same thing. It sounds less wanky to me though.

[Patrick]

I think Dawkins is factually right about most things, but he's a bit of an arse. I'm fighting with Tim Minchin block.

I think probably the best thing about not believing in God is that it liberates the Old Testament. Back in my younger days when I tried to be a believer, I found the OT greatly troubling - it's hard to find spiritual guidance and access to the ineffable in such violent stories with such an alien morality. But try reading the book of Judges in the same spirit you read 2000AD - it's feckin' awesome. I can't help visualising the story of Ehud assassinating the incredibly fat king of the Moabites on the bog as if it was drawn by Carlos Ezquerra. And King David (I & II Samuel) is the most charming bastard in the history of world literature.

[The Prodigal]

I think Dawkins is factually right about most things, but he's a bit of an arse. I'm fighting with Tim Minchin block.

I think probably the best thing about not believing in God is that it liberates the Old Testament. Back in my younger days when I tried to be a believer, I found the OT greatly troubling - it's hard to find spiritual guidance and access to the ineffable in such violent stories with such an alien morality. But try reading the book of Judges in the same spirit you read 2000AD - it's feckin' awesome. I can't help visualising the story of Ehud assassinating the incredibly fat king of the Moabites on the bog as if it was drawn by Carlos Ezquerra. And King David (I & II Samuel) is the most charming bastard in the history of world literature.

I think the OT is a huge problem for a great many people. I grew up thinking of God (when i thought of him at all) as essentially schizophrenic when i looked at the Bible as a whole.

I have adjusted my interpretative lens since then and no longer fear God as the cheer-leader of genocide but I have to say i would love an illustrated OT of the type you describe.

[Colin YNWA]

... but I have to say i would love an illustrated OT of the type you describe.

Robert Crumb has made a start.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Robert-Crumbs-Book-Genesis-Chapters/dp/0224078097/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347524231&sr=8-1

... though he is clearly not Carlos.

[TordelBack]

What this thread really needs is the Fifth Coming of Roger Godpleton, to rain down his scorn and hip pop-cultural pronouncements on believers and worthless hippies alike.  Judge us, oh contemptuous one, judge us!

[JayzusB.Christ]

Hail Roger, Full of Shite...

I found the whole place, and its profound atmosphere, very moving and indeed consoling.  I feel the same about holy wells and fairy trees and megalithic tombs and all that accreted jazz.  There's a lot to be said for the balm of connection to other unknown humans through millennia-deep wells of tradition.

I'm with you on this one, TB.  Strange occurrence last May:  While looking for Sukhothai Heritage Park (A place in Thailand where tourists can look at Buddhist temples) I somehow drove past it and missed it completely, and found myself at another ruined Buddhist temple in a clearing of trees.  A huge, headless Buddha looming above ruined pillars with nobody around and no sounds but birds squawking overhead.  It was a long time before I finally dragged myself away, and when I did I had a sense of pure exhilarating joy, that lasted for the rest of the day.  Hadn't felt anything like it since my younger days of eating special disprins in nightclubs, but this had the added advantage of no horrible comedown.  Shame it couldn't have lasted forever.  And no god involved: Buddhism doesn't have one, as far as I know. 

[Richmond Clements]

I think Dawkins is factually right about most things, but he's a bit of an arse. I'm fighting with Tim Minchin block.

This.

[The Prodigal]

I found Dawkin's input on last night's programme to be quite insightful. I also thought he came across as quite personable.

Why is he considered an arse?

[Trout]

What this thread really needs is the Fifth Coming of Roger Godpleton, to rain down his scorn and hip pop-cultural pronouncements on believers and worthless hippies alike.  Judge us, oh contemptuous one, judge us!

I agree.

As did your mum, last night.

[Spaceghost]

I found Dawkin's input on last night's programme to be quite insightful. I also thought he came across as quite personable.

Why is he considered an arse?

I wouldn't say he was an arse but when I've seen him on TV in the past, debating with religious people, there's always a detectable air of barely concealed contempt for all things 'holy'.

In a debate about Islam I saw, he ended up coming off worse because he got frustrated and lost his temper whilst the muslim guy kept his cool (albeit whilst spouting some nonsense about Western women being disgraceful because they are 'allowed' to wear whatever they want).

Which is something I've done all too often I must admit. Only this week at work I've been asked to tone it down a bit after I was overheard saying that the immaculate conception is "all a load of rubbish".

[JayzusB.Christ]

In a debate about Islam I saw, he ended up coming off worse because he got frustrated and lost his temper whilst the muslim guy kept his cool (albeit whilst spouting some nonsense about Western women being disgraceful because they are 'allowed' to wear whatever they want).

I saw that one as well - I actually thought RD reacted well.  And I remember a great comeback line to the fundamentalist oaf's prejudiced rants, that went something like this:

Muslim guy: 'You (westerners) dress your women up like prostitutes.'
Dawkins: 'They dress themselves up.'

Quite so.

[JOE SOAP]

Only this week at work I've been asked to tone it down a bit after I was overheard saying that the immaculate conception is "all a load of rubbish".

My conception was immaculate, no rubbish anywhere.

Problem with Dawkins is he often comes across as being more of a zealot in his ideals than those he criticises. Being a bit of a media-whore doesn't help either.

[The Prodigal]

I found Dawkin's input on last night's programme to be quite insightful. I also thought he came across as quite personable.

Why is he considered an arse?

I wouldn't say he was an arse but when I've seen him on TV in the past, debating with religious people, there's always a detectable air of barely concealed contempt for all things 'holy'.

In a debate about Islam I saw, he ended up coming off worse because he got frustrated and lost his temper whilst the muslim guy kept his cool (albeit whilst spouting some nonsense about Western women being disgraceful because they are 'allowed' to wear whatever they want).

Which is something I've done all too often I must admit. Only this week at work I've been asked to tone it down a bit after I was overheard saying that the immaculate conception is "all a load of rubbish".

He didn't come across like that at all in last night's programme, I think maybe because while not subscribing to any of the God aspect he did seem to like the approach and personality of the guy he was having the conversation with. I did too. It was such a refreshing encounter tbh. Well worth a watch if you have half an hour to spare.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I think maybe because while not subscribing to any of the God aspect he did seem to like the approach and personality of the guy he was having the conversation with. I did too. It was such a refreshing encounter tbh. Well worth a watch if you have half an hour to spare.

Prodigal, you're a gem - would that all the religious were as open-minded and balanced as you.