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Spoilers => Other Reviews => Topic started by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2016, 02:30:29 PM

Title: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2016, 02:30:29 PM
When I first came to these parts 8 years ago (wow is it only 8 years, feels longer... bet it feels even longer for the poor saps that wrestle with my spelling, typos and grammar to find there was little sense in my intended meaning either) I was at the start(ish) of a re-read. Well my next Prog Slog (as these things are called now I believe) was scheduled on my all to long to read spread sheet over two years ago now AND FINALLY its here!

WAYHEY!!!!

It'll be a little different this time. See my to read list is grouped into blocks of 4 runs of comics, of which two are new things and two are re-read things. So for example my latest block of four (#88 if anyone wishes to know) includes:

New: From Hell (I know, I know I've never read it, it came out in my comic reading wilderness years)
New: Classic Star Wars (some stuff I've never read picked up dirt cheap digitally)
Reread: Absoloute Final Crisis
Reread:.... wait for it, wait for it 2000ad 1977

Yes in each block of four for the next... well God knows how long, I'm reading a year of 2000ad (well 1977 is a little different as my collection only starts from Prog 40 BUT I have pretty much all the stories, with the exception of the Future Shocks and a few parts of MACH 1 and Invasion, reprinted). I'm planning to reread Progs cover to cover, though if I'm not enjoying a story, or lose the will, I will happily start to skip stuff - I'm thinking of a few that will most likely be skipped already, but we'll come to that in a couple of 'Years' I suspect. ANYWAY...

So yeah, when I was first here and when I worked up the gander I was pestering the 'Other Reviews' thread like no ones business. Stinking the section up something rotten with my so called opinions. This time however I'll keep my mess tidy and just foul up this one corner of the precious 'Other Reviews' section.

I've no idea how long all this will last, each 'block' of 4 runs typically takes me a month to read, but less public transport due to lovely new job 'in town' might well see that pace fall back a litte, we'll see. God knows how much I'll bother to write. For all we know you might get lucky and this will be all you ever hear of this endeavour. But when something takes my fancy, or catches my imagination, when I fancy looking back and reflecting on comments I've made on certain stories before and how that's changed, or not, I'll post here. As a minimum, in my head at this point at least, I like the idea of reviewing each year in 2000ad's history, at least in story terms. Lets see how that goes hey.

So without any further ado, with no more pomp and ceremony I'll kick off now by... oh... sorry what was... go get Bethan from her Ballet practice... comics can WHAT.... COMICS CAN WAIT..... BLOODY HELL... well sorry this will kick off later today then it would seem...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 22 May, 2016, 06:26:42 PM
"If I start to lose the will I will start skiping titles"

Thats a slippery slope Colin, you watch yourself now or you'll find yourself just reading Dredd...and Flesh...man I need to get the Dino Files...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 22 May, 2016, 10:29:45 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 22 May, 2016, 02:30:29 PM
So yeah, when I was first here and when I worked up the gander I was pestering the 'Other Reviews' thread like no ones business. Stinking the section up something rotten with my so called opinions. This time however I'll keep my mess tidy and just foul up this one corner of the precious 'Other Reviews' section.
I'm a big fan of the multi-thread approach but I look forward to this new series. I've probably read anything that's ever been reprinted but not the original Progs for the first five years or so.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 22 May, 2016, 11:31:28 PM
I didn't really follow your block method of reading, but happy to follow this thread.  Might also kick me into gear to continue my slog (still in the twenties, having started last year).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 23 May, 2016, 12:16:59 AM
Look forward to it Colin  :)

Fully endorse your use of a system (and always good to hear about these). Would dearly like to embark on a slog, or revisit favourite runs, but it's clear I won't even clear the decks anytime soon  :( I do plan monthly (it really helps) but I'm aware that time spent per comic is way too high (if anecdotal comments on the forum is a guide to normality) ! Guess I spend too long on the pictures. Dunno.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 May, 2016, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 22 May, 2016, 06:26:42 PM
..and Flesh...man I need to get the Dino Files...

Yes you bloomin' well should.

Well that didn't take long did it. Lets see if this early burst of enthusism lasts. BUT the first thing I've read is the early Dan Dares and I'm specifically talking the Belardinelli stuff (yes I looked up the spelling). Now I'm nowhere near as big a fan as Mr B's (getting lazy already) art work as some. I definately stuggle with his anatomny and ability to make a hard man look a little limp. On the right strip he's great. So Slaine - nah don't like it at all (well except some lush backgrounds and warp spasms), Ace Trucking love it. Meltdown Man a little in the middle.

Early Dan Dare - BLOODY AMAZING! Its the perfect strip for him and his art is completely, gloriously mind melting. Its stunning. The fact that Dan Dare spends a lot of the time running around in a spacesuit by-passes one of my big problems with his art, the fact the D.D. (now you can stop calling him that anytime you like) isn't meant to be the traditional strong man led helps as well. What really works is EVERY OTHER BLOODY THING HE DRAWS. I mean I'm not being funny but in the first story he has organic spaceships throwing moons as a weapon... don't really need to say anything else do I... except in the second story THEY TRIED TO TOP THAT. Just think about that for a second. In the second Dan Dare story according to the notes from Pat Mills they tried to make the story more visually compelling than organic spaceships throwing moons as a weapon.

I know.

Amazing isn't it.

Now I'm not saying they actually suceed but damn it you have to love the ambition that they tried!

Its no surprise that even though I've not read any of these stories since my brothers early Progs fell victim to the Mum Monster all those years ago images from it are clearly burnt onto the back of my eyeballs. Flicking through the episodes so many images felt so familar. Just amazing stuff.

Oh there's a story or two thrown in for good measure. Stories that make very little sense, that have plot holes you could throw an orbiting planetoid through with ease but who gives a damn everyone is clearly having so much fun its an absolute riot. It really bloody is such fun. I adored these stories and every living axe, push me pull you villain, martian hero and Yujee protype warrior (christ Dan's relationship with Rok is played for so much fun). I've always firmly believed that Flesh was by far the best of the first 2000ad strips. I now wonder whether thats true. How the hell did Dredd survive!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 24 May, 2016, 08:55:17 AM
Nice write up, early Dan Dare in the tooth never pretended to be anything more than it was, a cracking slce of space opear with some brilliant art and great characters. It was deffinetly a factor in the initial success of 2000AD.

And I just had to go and get Flesh the Dino Files now, goddamn it i'm poor damn you!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 24 May, 2016, 09:30:46 AM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 23 May, 2016, 10:01:28 PM
Early Dan Dare - BLOODY AMAZING! Its the perfect strip for him and his art is completely, gloriously mind melting.

See also: the back half of Blackhawk, particularly once they end up inside the black hole. Warped, fantastic landscapes, hideous beasties, very few humans. Just a perfect fit for Belardinelli — I can picture whole pages of it in my head, despite not having looked at the progs for years.

Cheers

Jim
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 24 May, 2016, 04:50:31 PM
My prog slog has just taken me past them.  Currently in the late hundreds.  Stainless Steel Rat, Judge Child, ...

The early eighties were definitely an amazing time.

Couldn't agree more on Belardinelli's BlackHawk work.  I think other than Dare, it is second only to Meltdown Man.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Albion on 24 May, 2016, 04:57:26 PM
I'm currently on a Prog Slog and my next Prog is 889, cover date 27 May 1994.
I'd forgotten a few stories from this era, I think my mind decided to forget them as there are some truly awful stories in the early 1990's.

I read a Prog a day and I skip nothing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2016, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 23 May, 2016, 10:01:28 PM

Early Dan Dare - BLOODY AMAZING!.... I've always firmly believed that Flesh was by far the best of the first 2000ad strips. I now wonder whether thats true...

Arh Flesh Book 1, I will never doubt you again.

I've read it for the third time in maybe 5 years and it really is the Thrill that keeps giving... well okay not giving, its not as if it has any hidden depths or is anything other than its meant to be on the surface. BUT since on the surface its THE BLOODY COOLIST STORY EVER, dinosaurs, cowboys, blood, guts and a monster as villianous and terrible as any there has ever been, frankly who the hell cares. I think I've talked about this countless times before. Each time I've re-read it though it doesn't disappoint. Its well plotted has wonderfully engaging characters, in all their vivid two dimensions and if basically the joy of reading action and adventure comics boiled down into its puriest, undistilled form.

Its simply the best.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 May, 2016, 09:50:21 PM
1977

Well what can we say about 2000ad's first year. Well firstly its astonishly consistent in its line-up, only 8 ongoing thrills (Dredd, Dare, Flesh, M.A.C.H. 1, Invasion, Harlem Heroes, Shako and Inferno, 7 if you count Harlem Heroes and Inferno as the same thing, back to 8 if you count Bonjo). The care taken in the first issue and setting the opening lineup of stories up is there to see. A truly rich and diverse set of stories that will mark the comics during all its best periods is there. The art in those very first issues is quite staggeringly good.

What is a little varied is how the opening series hold their form. For me the longer form stories do best, both Dan Dare (first wave) and Flesh are quite brilliant beginning to end. What's a shame is that both don't last as long as the other stories. I've always wondered why Flesh was the first to go? Was it not as popular as the rest? It probably does it a service as after those 19 (almost all) perfect parts it gets a conclusion it almost desires (another thing I've always wondered is whether they tacked on that bit at the end with the three headed man-osaurus and the resurection of Reagan as Shako wasn't ready?). Soon after the Belardinelli Dare disappears to shortly be dragged back to life as the inferior Dave Gibbons/ Finley-Day version.

Both Savage and M.A.C.H 1 become weaker strips quite quickly, I think largely due to the chopping and changing of creative teams, though M.A.C.H 1 gets much better towards the end of the year. They lack the scope of other strips and while there is a narrative of sorts though the stories its not as strong as with the better strips.

Harlem Heroes and Dredd form a middle ground. HH due to its consistancy, but its just not as exhilarating as DD and Flesh, nice art aside. Dredd, possibly because of my affection of the strip to come I love watching it develop and pocking at the differences between what it was and what it became. Possibly because its just a better more varied concept that lets it do more than Savage and MACH 1. Probably a bit of both.

Shako is pretty good, but no Flesh. Inferno is only just getting going by the end of the year and is... something. Its a bit weird, we'll see how it goes. I've only got to read a few of the Future Shocks and they don't really hold up to well.

Overall though the comic gets off to an fantastic start. Its not perfect by any stretch but bloody hell its thrilling. I've loved reading it now and can only grasp at how mind bogglingly good I found it when I was 5 and first reading it. As I commented elsewhere its amazing what it gets away with. Not just the violence itself, but as I've discussed in more details on another thread so I'll not labour here, the joy and reveling it what its doing. It really is compelling stuff, NOW. So then you can multiple that by 1000. I mean as a 5 year old kid there was surely nothing, nothing as exciting 2000ad. The double page feature on Star Wars at the end of the year maybe suggests how that might change by years end.

Oh and the other thing I've learnt I LOVE reading the progs. Okay so its inconvenient. The art isn't well served by 40 year old bog paper, but christ having read most of this years stuff in trade or other reprint, getting to those last 5 issues (41-45) and the first annual made the experience all the more compelling. The gingerly held paper contained so much more than just the thrills themselves they are a time capsule of my youth. The letters, the drawings, the adverts all make the experience so much more than just reading the stories. So glad from here on in its progs all the way.

So 1977. B+ great start.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 July, 2016, 09:25:02 PM
So started reading 1978's Progs a few nights ago and have reached Prog 56 tonight. What's struck me early is that I think this year will have an almost opposite trajectory as 1977, a year which started well and tailed off as it went on.

As 1978 started the strips quality continues to struggle. Dan Dare so magnificent when the Prog first started continues to look great, but be a characterless generic sci-fi strip with no sense of self. Inferno is almost the opposite its a crazy, choatic mess, something I can often love, in this case I don't.

Even Dredd, though written largely by John Wagner is still to find its true form. I have to be honest I've never been a fan of the Luna One era, some lovely visuals aside and I can't for the life of me remember what inspired it (I'm sure its mentioned in Thrillpower Overload but I'm too lazy to dig my copy out to check).

So even as the weak Invasion is finally put to rest, the replacement strips aren't always the finest. I always want to like Colony Earth more than I do as the art, if a little confused, offers much eye appeal. The story however is nonsense and poppycock of the highest (lowest) order.

There are some bright spots. I've always been a fan of the wonderous nonsense that is The Visible Man, all to short - which actaully may be its strenght as honestly what else can you do with the concept? And M.A.C.H. 1 for me continues to go from strenght to strenght as it pulls together its more interesting ideas to forge what I seem to remember is a great conclusion. At this stage in the Galaxies Greatest however these highlights are few and far between.

I'm saying all this now, not as a pointless whine, more as a marker in the sand as I know things will be getting better and I'm really looking forward to seeing once again how and when this starts to develop.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 July, 2016, 08:12:44 PM
So last night I mentioned that I had fond memories of the end of M.A.C.H. 1 and today I've read it and while it wasn't as good as I remember it holds up. I'd forgotten how rushed the whole thing felt, how shallow the 'Fred' situation was and weak 'Fred' himself is. Shame as well they 'bottled' having John Probe have to decide what to do with his nemesis boss Sharpe as well after building the tension between them for so long.

Still I really enjoyed it and the proto Mills themes it carries as it does have the courage to butcher its led character (wish they'd done that in Flesh). Leaving Probe's origin a mystery was also a brave choice (or defined by space and time?). Overall though M.A.C.H. 1 was a strip that I wasn't enjoying too much after the first story but got better and better as it reached its finale.

Over at Inferno I was encouraged by the return of the brilliant Artie Gruber... only too remember he returns disguised as one of the Philadelphia Freaks in an exact copy of idea used in Harlem Heroes. Which basically boils down to getting the same plot using a once again less interesting look for the otherwise wonderfully grusome Artie... my encouragement didn't last...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 04 July, 2016, 04:17:30 PM
The real 1978 action was over in StarLord! Although I share your love for the Visible Man and the later stories for MACH 1.

I don't know if it was a specific editorial decision, but putting Dredd on the Moon definitely amped-up the Sci-Fi elements of a strip that was perhaps in danger of being a bit too earth-bound, especially for some of the artists.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 04 July, 2016, 04:54:07 PM
You know, sandwiched between The Robot War and The Cursed Earth, I completely forgot Luna-1 was a thing. It's a decidedly unremarkable story arch if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: ZenArcade on 04 July, 2016, 05:12:51 PM
It did seem distraction, quite entertaining and it did introduce the Sov Judges. Z
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Echidna on 04 July, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
The Oxygen Board is pretty great too.

Also, didn't the Luna-1 arc introduce the Texas City Judges?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 04 July, 2016, 05:31:33 PM
It was in the early days of trying to figure out the character with a selection of villain of the week vignettes.  Some cracking Gibson and Bolland art though.  In some respects it was a bit like Tour of Duty; full of potential but never fully realised.

Think it was the first time we saw other Dredd world judges.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 04 July, 2016, 05:35:19 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 04 July, 2016, 04:17:30 PM
The real 1978 action was over in StarLord! Although I share your love for the Visible Man and the later stories for MACH 1.

I don't know if it was a specific editorial decision, but putting Dredd on the Moon definitely amped-up the Sci-Fi elements of a strip that was perhaps in danger of being a bit too earth-bound, especially for some of the artists.
You might have a point there - could have been for balance, and not just for Dredd but for the whole comic.

In the first prog we had one story set in the distant past, one almost in the present (M.A.C.H.1 was set in the eighties), one in the near future (1999), one a century after that, another nearly a century after that (Dan Dare).  The strips themselves featured future war, space, aliens and robots / cyborgs.  One year later, what was the mix in the comic?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: ZenArcade on 04 July, 2016, 05:44:48 PM
Starlord was where it was in many ways. A tour de force in comics IMO. However if you randomly pick up a late 1978 prog, it is still mostly good stuff. Z
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 July, 2016, 06:17:29 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 04 July, 2016, 05:31:33 PM
In some respects it was a bit like Tour of Duty; full of potential but never fully realised.


Now while I'm all for free speech and the wondeful diversity of opinions and perspectives that makes 2000ad fandom the best in the land, in this case....

HUSH YOUR MOUTH.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 July, 2016, 09:30:47 PM
Prog 71 is a game changer for me... and I emphasize FOR ME as I know what I'm about to say will leave many open mouthed BUT I really like Ant Wars, its probably the best thing Gerry Finley-Day did in the Prog (no, I'm not a fan of Rogue Trooper) and so Prog 71, featuring its first part is a real benchmark.

Since the opening Progs the Galaxies Greatest really struggled to find its groove. The quality of a number of the opening stories dipped. Flesh was never really replaced and yes there were some highlights, Visible Man, Shako later M.A.C.H. 1 amongst them. Dredd is getting there, but has struggled at times finding its feet and for me, a few stories aside, the Luna One episodes were a bit of a low.

Then you look at the line-up for Prog 71 and you can can smell the Prog starting to really become what it started as in those very first few Progs and what it would become for so many more years. Ant Wars starts with a magnificently, almost Millsesque anti-authoritorian veiw. The US soliders are so beautifully vile and ya know GIANT ANTS all gloriously rendered. This story has replaced Death Planet which replaced Colony Earth, so ya know, smell that improvement!

Elsewhere Dredd is in the middle of Cursed Earth a story that really defines Dredd as the best thing in the Prog. Its glorious stuff. M.A.C.H 0 is just an absolute gem. Again its anti establishment stance is a joy and the dark army of 'tramps and vagrants' lead by 'The Three' to release a monster is almost a proto-Nemesis, its that dark and brilliant. Inferno, while a little chaotic just adds to the feeling of anarchy. Dan Dare... well its adds balance and looks great.

So yeah Prog 71 the first (almost) perfect Prog since Flesh finished?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 15 July, 2016, 07:14:22 AM
You mount a strong argument! I too love MACH 0. Watch for another quality hike when Mr Sam Slade arrives...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 July, 2016, 06:25:36 PM
So in Prog 74 while editorial eyes are turned to Inferno, cruelly chopped to 3 pages and off panel deaths to avoid complaints, a few pages away in Ant Wars a man is torn in half in anty mandibles of death in full glorious detail.

2000ad the comics they would never tame!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 17 July, 2016, 06:41:49 PM
Ant Wars...wasn't that the non-Dredd world stripper that got retconned into conti uity via Ciuded Baranquilla and Banzai Battalion? I'm kind of vague on none Judge Dredd strips of this period i'm afraid.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 July, 2016, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 17 July, 2016, 06:41:49 PM
Ant Wars...wasn't that the non-Dredd world stripper that got retconned into conti uity via Ciuded Baranquilla and Banzai Battalion? I'm kind of vague on none Judge Dredd strips of this period i'm afraid.

Not sure about that, can't remember it specifically being pulled in but no doubt that's just my memory. That said having just read Prog 85 gotta say I loved it and don't know quite why its got a rep for being a bad strip. Okay so it feels as though the last section set in Argentine was a little tacked on after what seemed like an aborted ending with the shelling of Rio, but its really fun strip.

It also marks a grimmly beautiful feature of 2000ad that issue 85 in particular highlights and that's its brutal endings. The fearless way it treats so many of its leds when a story has done its course. Please don't read on if you've not read these old strips and plan to as I'm going to spoil a few. In Prog 85 the happy go lucky ending is found in Cursed Earth, which even though it ends well is quite brutal in and of itself and damning of mankind at the same time. It also makes sure we don't rest on our laurels promising more to come. Elsewhere Dan Dare ends its run (for now) by blowing everything up, having Hitman make the nobel sacrifice and leaving DD spinning into space the solo survivor, even though that's not made clear.

Ant Wars is even worse. Our gloriously entertaining leds are both mandibled to death and a laughing General makes it clear that a lot more will follow. Its hardly the first time this sort of callus denouement has enlightened the Prog's reads to lifes more vicious ways, M.A.C.H 1, Shako, most of Harlem Heroes (and Inferno incarnation) and I'm sure others are keenly dispatched. M.A.C.H. 0, the surviving cast of Flesh and Visible Man are amongst those who might get out alive, but only just and their fates often seem worse.

We often praise Dredd as having a key strenght of bumping off his villians, meaning writers are forced into new and creative areas. What we seem to forget more readily is how harshly the comic as a whole used to treat its leading lights!

2000ad not afraid to underline and ending with death since 1977!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Grant Goggans on 21 July, 2016, 06:58:59 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 17 July, 2016, 06:41:49 PM
Ant Wars...wasn't that the non-Dredd world stripper that got retconned into conti uity via Ciuded Baranquilla and Banzai Battalion? I'm kind of vague on none Judge Dredd strips of this period i'm afraid.

Via Zancudo, not Banzai Battalion, but yes.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 25 July, 2016, 03:06:13 PM
You make a good point about how much hero death there was in early 2000AD! I suppose in those days it was all about creating a series that would just keep runnning unti the readership tired of it, then it'd have to end. And what clearer end can there be but death?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 July, 2016, 05:45:31 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 25 July, 2016, 03:06:13 PM
You make a good point about how much hero death there was in early 2000AD! I suppose in those days it was all about creating a series that would just keep runnning unti the readership tired of it, then it'd have to end. And what clearer end can there be but death?

Yeah the funny thing is I don't remember it happening too much more after this, I might be wrong mind my memory isn't the best. Maybe after the Starlord merger they realised they might be around a bit longer than most and so had better take better care of their leds?

I don't remember (see above) 2000ad's peers being quite so ruthless?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 August, 2016, 08:07:26 PM
I'm going to catch up with the ups and downs of my favourite place on the Internet later tonight, but as the title says this is the self absorbed thread and as such I've been doing some reading while away and have been noting down my thoughts as I've done so... be warned there's more to come...

Starlord

I've made some notes while I've been away on holiday and want to add some very quick thoughts on some stuff I read  while away. Firstly I don't own Starlord - which I've always thought is a shame and I always intended to get around to buying but never quite get to...

... then I read some. Specifically Ro-Busters and Strontium Dog in reprint. Now this isn't a great deal BUT these strips are meant to be the cream of the crop right? (please correct that if I'm wrong). And half of um ain't that good... gulp... I know that's sacrilege BUT Ro-Busters Starlord era isn't great is it. There's some nice bits, some moments of lovely art but its just not that strong a strip and have to be honest I'm no fan of Pino's art which makes up the bulk of its time here (Mind the all too brief moments of Ian Kennedy are wondrous!). The strip gets a bit repetitive and Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein have gelled as a double act yet. I remember the strip in Tharg's hands being much stronger.

Strontium Dog fares much better. The strip feels almost fully formed from the off (though when does Wulf actually become a viking, not just like a viking?). Its very good.... well its is buuuutttt not as good as it will become under Tharg. The themes are there, the tone, the characters BUT again it doesn't quite get into it grove plot wise for me in these early stories. A bit unfair that, given it took Dredd so long to really get for me.

I guess it's easy to judge these early stages in a strips development too harshly - their quality slightly diminished by a knowledge of what's to come. Unfair comparison to future glories that would never have been without these first slightly uneasy steps. But still compare these Starlord's highs (see above) with 2000ad of this period, well certainly the issues from the 70s onwards when the Galaxies' greatest really finds its form again and against commonly held and possibly romanitised opinion (and with my limited exposure to Starlord) looks to me for all you hear 2000ad was the stronger of the two?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 06 August, 2016, 09:28:53 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 06 August, 2016, 08:07:26 PM
Strontium Dog fares much better. The strip feels almost fully formed from the off (though when does Wulf actually become a viking, not just like a viking?). Its very good.... well its is buuuutttt not as good as it will become under Tharg.
I actually don't like much the initial two stories which ran in 2000AD and Starlord from the Starlord side of the merger - Galaxy Killers and Death on the Orient Express - both series got better after those ones though.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 August, 2016, 11:09:52 AM
I'd have to agree with that.  Starlord Stront was generally a much stronger beast than GC.  The Hell storyline that followed really showed Stront in a much stronger light.  Not least since it allowed Ezquerra to just go completely bonkers with the artwork.  TBH I can't think of anyone else who could have pulled off that story, much less from the tooth artist roster of the time.  Maybe Flint could today.

RoBusters always felt like a one joke strip that lasted long after the punch line had played out. Some of the Starlord stories really don't read that well today.  The meandering into Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein's back stories before simply killing everyone off was probably the only thing that kept it going. 

If there was anything I would love to see get a decent reprint treatment from the Lord, it would have to be Mind Wars.  Foreshadowing Return to Armageddon with gorgeous Redondo artwork, a galaxy spanning plot, and great big balls for ships!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 11 August, 2016, 09:29:51 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 07 August, 2016, 11:09:52 AM
If there was anything I would love to see get a decent reprint treatment from the Lord, it would have to be Mind Wars.  Foreshadowing Return to Armageddon with gorgeous Redondo artwork, a galaxy spanning plot, and great big balls for ships!
Second vote for Mind Wars here - throw in the not-so-good annual story which appeared a year or two after the good Redondo stuff too.  Mind Wars is one that didn't make it away from Starlord though, didn't it?  Which (as far as my meagre knowledge of the Rebellion IP deal goes) means it isn't in Reb's catalogue unless they cut a new deal (like they did for Monster).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2016, 09:45:42 AM
Whoops meant to have added a few more of these... and I know you'll all be missing me!

Anyway holiday thought number 2

2000ad and Starlord

As if to prove my point issue 86 is an absolute gem. It really is. Its like issue one all over again, as if real time and care has been taken to make each strip as strong as possible. The comic looks glorious and while there are only 4 strips (Dredd, Strontium Dog, Ro-Busters and Flesh 2) each has more room and really shines. The Starlord cross-overs (Strontium Dog and Ro-Busters) already show signs of improvement, though time will tell if this is as I remember it. Still Prog 86 is a joy to behold (this is why I got my cover of this issue signed by Dave Gibbons)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2016, 09:46:37 AM
Which was quickly followed by Holiday thought number 3

End of 1978

Yep both Starlord strips feel much better for the move to 2000ad. Well okay Strontium Dog didn't have that much room for improvement but the new story is for me the strongest so far. Ro-Busters after a fun two parter really kicks into gear with the fantastic Hammerstein War Memories story. Now again to be fair this is largely due to the fact that its completely changed format and the art is quite fantastic. The lose of the formula is what makes the future stories, by and large sing though. The odd rescue story that pops up (I'm remembering Northpool) therefore feels fresher. So yeah 2000ad and Starlord - better than the sum of its parts.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 13 August, 2016, 10:05:23 PM
And yet as a Starlord reader but not a 2000AD reader at the time I found the change in format of both Stontium Dog and Robusters to be not what I wanted. Johnny and Wulf forced into a war rather than apprending criminals?  Robusters not following the disaster of the week format?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2016, 10:53:14 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 13 August, 2016, 10:05:23 PM
And yet as a Starlord reader but not a 2000AD reader at the time I found the change in format of both Stontium Dog and Robusters to be not what I wanted. Johnny and Wulf forced into a war rather than apprending criminals?  Robusters not following the disaster of the week format?

Have you reflected on it since? I often wonder how much my take on stuff from the first couple of years of 2000ad is influenced by my thoughts and affection for strips at the time? Its hard to unpick but for example can I really read Flesh as just a comic as it was so fundamental to forming me as a reader? I'd love to be able to read some of these stories for the first time, in the same way I am say Monster (when I get to it).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 14 August, 2016, 03:52:06 AM
Yes I think there is a lot in that. I look back on the early stories with great affection but there is probably a lot of nostalgia and rose tinted spectacles going on.

As I wasn't a regular 2000AD reader until Prog 127 I missed out on a number of things first time round and have been recently reading some of the stuff I missed for the first time.

This includes:

(original) Harlem Heroes and Inferno - having owned the TPB for 2 years (?) I still haven't finished it and am forcing myself to finish it at present

Dan Dare (vol 1): having fairly quickly read the first story (the Belardinelli one) I have so far only read a couple of episodes of the Dave Gibbons one and haven't picked it up in months

Invasion - I found that to be totally formulaic, unsophisticated and repetitive

Death Planet - makes Invasion look like Shakespeare

Coloney Earth - makes Death Planet look like Shakespeare

The "banned episodes" of the Cursed Earth - let's be honest they're not great are they?

JD case files 1 ( anniversary edition)- let's be kind and say the step hadn't hit on the winning formula yet.

As it was available in the half price sale I bought Robusters Nuts and Bolts 1, but haven't read it yet - so it will be interesting to see how it holds up.

I did also read some of my old favourites as my local library happen to have the trades:

SD files 1 and 2 (including the Starlord stuff) - I think it holds up well apart from Journey to Hell, which even more than the first 2000 AD Strontium Dog story strays from the established pattern

VCs first series - I still like it but it is quite formulaic and the ensemble cast are in it way less than I remember ( a bit like Scotty , Sulu and Chekov in ST TOS).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2016, 07:52:22 AM
The finale of my later than planned holiday thoughts:

2000ad 1978

Well what a year that's been for the young Prog. Tharg started the year on his back foot. As I've said before Galaxies Greatest has been on an admitedly slow downward spiral since its early and glorious start. After some stunningly good stuff in the first 20 or so Progs 1977 was only smattered with real highlights, which I've mentioned previously, but lacked any real consistency and 1978 brought some real stinkers too. Yes Colony Earth and Death Planet (whatever you were called) I'm looking at you in particular. Not just not great, real chuffin' rubbish.

To be honest as I've mentioned before for the first half of the year the Prog was struggling to entertain and I was skip reading great chunks. Funnily enough the form of the Prog has been echoing the form of Dredd (by and large and possibly the other way around). So when Cursed Earth comes along and unleashed some of the finest Dredd ever, it's no surprise the Prog soon follows form. Cursed Earth is absolutely classic Dredd and for me it's when the strip actually becomes the best thing in the Prog consistency and the series really takes off. The story really gets to the heart of the character, unfettered by the cruel, evil system that sharps him, the relentless hero fighting for justice is allowed to shine through. I find it fascinating that it's a story by Pat Mills that so clearly demonstrates what Mr Wagner's character is all about.

So anyway I digress Cursed Earth drags Dredd onto the very best form. Almost as soon as it does Ant Wars starts, which I know isn't popular, but which I love and with some other nice stories added to the mix the Prog seems to have finally found its feet. Just in time to have them possibly kicked out from under it with the merger with Starlord...

... but as I've said over the last few posts no such thing. Prog 86 and the rest of 1978 find the Prog as good as it's ever been to this date. All the strips in the new line-up are fantastic, really thrill-powered, Flesh 2 being a surprise (again I think) as I never remember it as fondly as Book 1, but then I do very little in the Prog, BUT that means I seem to miss what absolute immense fun it is. It's like the comic is a new, refreshed as it's been in the second half of the year this last stretch in 1978 sees the Prog as good as I can remember it ever being in its 40 year (gulp) history. All this in a mysteriously short year, missing 3 or 4 Progs. I'd forgotten about the Journalists strike which wiped them out until Tharg reminded me in Nerve Centre in the years final Prog 93.

Can 2000ad sustain its wonderful second half of 1979... well my memory says no, but my re-read will very possibly give my wayward memory a good kicking. Let's see shall we...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 14 August, 2016, 08:48:30 AM
Hm, is Curs-ed Earth the "heart" of the character? (Possibly my favourite epic and hate  :) myself at picking it up yet again when there was no need). Mills did say recently it's an anomaly with the rest of Dredd, as he's the straight-ahead Hero, Saving the Day ("winning" wars and busting perps, he's usually a right Bastard, albeit-entertaining...).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2016, 09:06:04 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 14 August, 2016, 08:48:30 AM
Hm, is Curs-ed Earth the "heart" of the character? (Possibly my favourite epic and hate  :) myself at picking it up yet again when there was no need). Mills did say recently it's an anomaly with the rest of Dredd, as he's the straight-ahead Hero, Saving the Day ("winning" wars and busting perps, he's usually a right Bastard, albeit-entertaining...).

For me that's kinda the point. Dredd is a rigourous unrelenting hero, in many many ways, he's a determined fighter for justice. Its just that justice in his world has been defined by an evil fascistic system. Take him out of that and he becomes the hero that Pat Mills finds in Cursed Earth. This interestingly continues in 'The Day the Law Died' when Dredd returns to Mega City One, but here the systems has broken down so Dredd has to operate outside his norms and again the relentless fighter for Justice returns (though ok here he's fighting for the return of the less evil, but still evil, status quo). I'm really interested to see the strips after TDtLD feel like when he goes back to being a bastard, cos that what the system he loves makes him.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 14 August, 2016, 10:45:26 AM
Prog 86 was the first Prog I bought. Looking back now it is a fantastic Prog, but at the time in addition to my comments above about the change in format of Strontium Dog and Robusters in the move to 2000AD, the other issue the 9 (?) year old me had with the Prog at the time was that the Day the Law Died just wasn't a great introduction to Dredd, even though it is an all time classic. The problem was it was yet another strip with a change of focus. The first part starting with the post Cursed Earth parade didn't help, only increasing the sense of coming in in the middle of a story (yes looking back now it didn't matter but it felt like it did then.)

Then it was straight into Dredd being outside the system. When you are not familiar with the system...well let's say it put me off - regardless of the wonderful Bolland and McCarthy / Ewins art. I would have much preferred a few standard procedurals first.

Add in a few missed Progs and I was out for over 6 months.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2016, 11:28:34 AM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 14 August, 2016, 09:06:04 AM
...blah blah... Dredd... I'm really interested to see the strips after TDtLD feel like when he goes back to being a bastard, cos that what the system he loves makes him.

Actually I want to change that 'system he loves' to 'system he is so immersed in and indoctrinated by'

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 August, 2016, 12:31:40 PM
Angel and end of Flesh 2 - does the dip start here?

Well I'm not giving 1979 much of a chance as very early my suspicions of slide start to bear fruit. Its not as if things are that bad, Dredd is still supreme, Ro-Busters wobbles but then springs back to form, the odd interesting Future Shock BUT as we approach Prog 100 things are slipping. Flesh Book 2 doesn't end well, Carlos Pino takes over on art for the last two parts, the end (unlike Book 1 which felt a little over extended) is very rushed. Okay so what happens to Peters (another brutal 2000ad moment) isn't significant, cos lets face it our 'hero' wasn't either, such a bland character, it's the fate of our two monsters that we're interested in. Big Hungry's fate is cute, Carvers is dismissed. Bloody wonderfully villainous Claw Carver dismissed in a couple of panels, one of which is cut and pasted from an earlier episode interestingly - I do wonder what is under that pasted on reproduction, how vicious was his end originally? Terrible way for this excellent series to be wrapped up.

Worse still is Angel. When people talk about the worse 2000ad series ever this one this one rarely appears. Not because people have any affection for it I suspect, I guess it because it's so utterly pointless and bland. The fact that it's utterly ridiculous both in concept and plot is neither here nor there, after all I love Visible Man, it's the fact that... it's so... well God knows I've almost forgotten it already. Even 2000ad's other lows are something to talk about, have moments of so bad it's... well not good but worth comment at least. Angel is rubbish. Oh and the much maligned (by me) Pino's art doesn't help. Angel committed the worse of all 2000ad crimes of being utterly bland beyond words, even to the point of me not caring how utterly stupid it is. Its deft skill comes solely in being so forgettable other stories are far more reviled!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 15 August, 2016, 01:36:07 PM
And this is it for Flesh for awhile, right? Flicking through my new copy of Dino Files I see a few annual strips which I presume you won't be covering before jumping straight into the modern McKay stuff (which I seem to be a lone fan of). I know Shammana and Chronocide did get floppies eventually, which I own, but I do hope these get collected in another Dino Files anyway because I think they're kinda good.

Angel...i'm not familiar with, probably for the better. Did it ever see a reprint?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 15 August, 2016, 03:30:58 PM
Angel. I vaguely remember the title alone, but nothing else.

Puts Tharg's embarrassment of riches these days into context. No quick filling of pages now (it seems), plenty of droids eager to get published who need to wait in line. That's the perception anyway, from this spotty reader at least.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 August, 2016, 08:06:36 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 15 August, 2016, 01:36:07 PM
And this is it for Flesh for awhile, right? Flicking through my new copy of Dino Files I see a few annual strips which I presume you won't be covering before jumping straight into the modern McKay stuff (which I seem to be a lone fan of). I know Shammana and Chronocide did get floppies eventually, which I own, but I do hope these get collected in another Dino Files anyway because I think they're kinda good.

Angel...i'm not familiar with, probably for the better. Did it ever see a reprint?

Oh interesting isn't the McKay stuff in the new printing? The copy I got (the one before this) had the first McKay story in it - and your not the only fan I really enjoyed it.

Shammana is rubbish fun and Chronocide is criminally short and was pretty good I thought. I'm thinking Angel was a filler in an Extreme or Floppie... hold on...yeah Meg 321 it would seem.

Quote from: Fungus on 15 August, 2016, 03:30:58 PM
Angel. I vaguely remember the title alone, but nothing else.

Puts Tharg's embarrassment of riches these days into context. No quick filling of pages now (it seems), plenty of droids eager to get published who need to wait in line. That's the perception anyway, from this spotty reader at least.

Yeah hard to argue. Many stories were poorly served by the old school factory method of churning the story out until it flagged in popularity and is then wrapped up quickly to slot in whatevers in the wings. Makes decent endings few and far between.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 15 August, 2016, 08:14:05 PM
McKays first run, Texas, is in this book. The page count is why I reckon now is a good time for a vol 2, with Shamana (Book 1 and 2) and Chronocide, with 3000AD thrown in for good measure! Some nice Critchlow art on that story.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 15 August, 2016, 09:16:40 PM
You know Colin you are absolutely spot on about Angel. In my post above about early stuff I have read for the first time in the last year or so I completely forgot about Angel.

It is comfortably worse than Death Planet or Colony Earth in my opinion, but was so bland that I just totally forgot it.

To further prove your point there are definitely series I actively dislike more.


Revere for one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 16 August, 2016, 09:23:21 AM
Angel didn't make a lick of sense - I recall a scene where he falls from a building to almost certain death but the flight-computer melted onto his shoulder ('cos yeah, that'd work) ) allows him to flip over in mid-air and LAND SAFELY ON HIS FEET without shattering his leg bones to splinters.

I can't recall a single other thing about the plot or story.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 16 August, 2016, 12:49:26 PM
I'd mostly forgotten about Angel.  It seems to be a bit like M.A.C.H. 1, but it just happened by accident and makes even less sense, logically, than Probe did.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2016, 09:45:16 PM
A Great start to the 2nd Century AD

Well it would seem I shot my dip bolt a little prematurely. A good few wonderful things happen after Prog 100. So okay Dan Dare returns to what I recall is its weakest run, which I have to admit gets off to a pretty good start, starts to lose itself and by 111 the cosmic claw appears... I'm not holding out hope. Mind Robo-Hunter is also back for the early 100s and is great. As is Strontium Dog in Journey into Hell, which arrives only a few Progs later. Ro-Busters really hits its stride as it breaks free of its formula and runs beautifully wild in Fall & Rise (which is very interesting to read again after the recent re-telling).

Its Dredd that absolutely shines though. Amongst all these jewels, and it is a really rich spell, the end of The Day the Law Died (in Prog 108) is great, not Cursed Earth great but still a superb story. Whats really exciting though is on its conclusion we get something starting that I think will be really significant. For well over a year now, in fact since Prog 42, so well over half the lifetime of the Prog we've not been in Mega City One as we know it. First Luna 1, then Cursed Earth and finally Cal's lunatic take on the City for so long Dredd has been estranged from the centre of his strip the streets and high rises of Mega City One. Because of that, however good the strip has been, certianly for those first two Mega Epics, its been strangely detached from what we know the strip as. Dredd has been playing different roles in different environments (even if one was Mega City One).

In  110, after missing 109 a point I will return to, I was really excited therefore to read 'Punks Rule' the archetype introducing Dredd to a new reader strip. Its a needed to as many readers won't have read much of whats to come for a good long run now (as I recall) Dredd on the streets exploring and busting up the crazy life of the cities citizens and punks. I think we get a years worth now (until Judge Child?) of short stories that will finally see Dredd fully formed and in 'normal' operation. A series of stories that will define 'typical' Dredd until Wagner starts to explore politics and the Democrary storyline changes the strip forever. Really looking to see if I'm right in this.

Oh and in Prog 109, not Dredd, but to be honest I barely noticed as we had one of those rarest of things up to this point a fantastic Future Shock. Most to date have been throw away and pretty weak 'Sacrifice' by Alan Hebden and Mike White is fantastic, a 7 page grim piece of delight. Simple, yet fantastically executed. What a short and wonderful surprise.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 August, 2016, 10:05:25 PM
New logo

So the first new logo for 2000ad comes along with Prog 119 and with it some nerves on my part. Rick Random has already been stinking up the Prog which aside from the continuing trudergy of Dan Dare getting less and less interesting as it goes on the Prog has been on fine form. Ro-Busters last 'epic' story is great and everything else has been great. Particularly Dredd which really is in a golden period of wonderful short stories (I always forget how early in the Prog's history Vienna appeared). So when Invasion prologue Disaster 1990 and Project Overload join in 119 along with a less than fondly remembered logo, I was a little worried we'd only have Dredd and the ABC Warriors to entertain. Well almost.

While Disaster 1990 might as well have been called Disaster 1979, Project Overload, a story I remember little of even though its only a few years since I read it, is great fun, at least at the start. It sets up a nice mystery and with great art has great fun as it unravels its secrets. Okay plot holes a plenty but I quickly got past that. So yeah we've still had a bit of a dip things aren't as bad as I feared and 1979's highs by Prog 123, about half way through by far out weigh any problems.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Andy B on 27 August, 2016, 06:46:18 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 21 August, 2016, 09:45:16 PM
I think we get a years worth now (until Judge Child?) of short stories that will finally see Dredd fully formed and in 'normal' operation.

Absolutely this - the essence of Dredd isn't in the epics, it's in the short stories, and this period is when that formula really came together. Plus, McMahon, Bolland and Smith on rotation: wonderful stuff. I often see Case Files 5 recommended as a good entry point for new readers, but there's a strong case for vol 3. Damn it: I'm going to go read it right now!

I've got fond memories of this period. I got hooked from Prog 160, and then spent a couple of years scouring second hand book stores, jumble sales in church halls, and boxes in the back of newsagents for back issues. So I read all these stories in a totally random order, which somehow didn't matter at all. Made them even more intriguing.

I remember the extra buzz I got from finding a Prog with the quality paper, and a 'Journey into Hell' centre spread. (How about a hardback edition of that and the full-colour Starlord stuff?)

Great thread - look forward to reading more.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2016, 09:16:06 PM
2000ad and Tornado

So while merging with Starlord saw an already improving Prog launched into new heights it would seem that absorbing Tornados ejaculate will see a weaking Prog get itself into a bit of a sticky mess. I mean we're okay, Dredd and ABC Warriors are still on absolute fire and we have seen the last (I think) of the ever diminishing Dan Dare but other signs are more worrying, if my shoddy memory is to be trusted.

I'm not a big fan of Blackhawk in the Prog, though it starts off okay and as I recall Wolfie Smith takes some time to get going (two long weak stories?) but again early episodes are fine... so maybe I'm going to find myself pleasently surprised... I'm certainly surprised that Disaster 1979 is still in the Galaxies Greatest. I mean it is bloody awful and I don't remember it lasting that long at all... I've avoided Barney not wanting to spoil myself as to when it does, but 3 progs into the merger and its still seems to be going stro... well it's still going.

Which is a shame when you consider that given time to build on its intitual msyteries Project OverKill could have bloomed into a great thrill. As it is Redondo's glorious art aside it's short lifespan contributed to it not living up to its early promise. Still I like to image a world where Tharg, whose day I've just joyously shared, saw its potential and ran with it rather than poorly realised Bill Savage pap. Oh well lets see how things develop.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 28 August, 2016, 10:39:49 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 28 August, 2016, 09:16:06 PM
2000ad and Tornado
I mean we're okay, Dredd and ABC Warriors are still on absolute fire and we have seen the last (I think) of the ever diminishing Dan Dare but other signs are more worrying, if my shoddy memory is to be trusted.
On the run, trying to clear his name?  Yep, that's the last we see of him in the prog.
QuoteI'm not a big fan of Blackhawk in the Prog, though it starts off okay and as I recall Wolfie Smith takes some time to get going (two long weak stories?) but again early episodes are fine... so maybe I'm going to find myself pleasently surprised...
Blackhawk plays host to some fantastic artwork from Massimo, before Ace Trucking Co had come along.  I liked the Wendigo storyline, but can't recall what other stories Earnest had in the Galaxy's Greatest...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 28 August, 2016, 11:51:22 PM
Prog 127 will always hold a special place in my heart, as it is the point at which my uninterrupted Prog reading started.

Regarding the stories over the weeks that followed, Dredd and ABC Warriors were just awesome - some of the best stuff ever in the Prog IMO.

I obviously must have liked the others at the time. I have re-read Blackhawk (TPB) and Disaster 1990 (floppies) recently.  I had never read the Tornado Blackhawk before and it is a very different beast to that in 2000 AD, which I think still holds up relatively well. It is helped massively by Belardnelli's art and the episodes he didn't draw stand out like a sore thumb.

I was surprised at how poor Disaster 1990 was - I definitely remember liking it at the time. On a re-read it comes across as very repetitive and cliched, full resolutions relying on conveniently placed items for Savage to use in that week's fight (a bit like Invasion before it really).

I have never re-read Wolfie Smith since, but remember thinking it was the weakest thing in the Prog at the time, both in terms of the story and the art.

I remember taking one of those Progs ( not sure if it was 130 or 132) to school when we were asking to bring something in we really liked to show our class mates and everyone being blown away by it. It felt like I had been reading 2000 AD for ages then but it was only my 4th (or 6th?) regular Prog,which just goes to show what an impression it made on me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 29 August, 2016, 12:52:02 AM
Disaster 1990 is fine in my eyes.
Designed for weekly episodes read by children, it's great. Certainly not 'poor'.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 29 August, 2016, 07:33:30 AM
Well I read Disaster 1990 in the floppies and thought it dreadful.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 31 August, 2016, 07:20:37 PM
Disaster is one of those tales that I don't think has aged particularly well.  I remember enjoying it as a child and even basically plagiarising it for an English essay in school but re-reading it as an adult ...

One of a series of stories that we've had over the years that probably sounded better originally in the writers' own mind than in execution.  Plenty of boys own adventure scrapes and one dimensional villains with a bit of a deus-ex resolution.

Let's face it, there have been worse <cough>Space Girls</cough>!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2016, 09:23:05 PM
Wow issue 138 before Disaster 1979 finishes. Alas it takes ABC Warriors with it. I'm sure I've read, but can't remember why it took so long for them to come back after what's been a glorious run... with one small bump.

What is it about Golgotha that doesn't quite work? I mean Old One Eye and Satanus are two of my all time favs but Golgotha? A Rex too far? Dare I say it is it that Ezquerra, using Long John Silver doesn't really suit ABC Warriors and makes his T-Rex slightly less magnificent. Is it the armour? I'm not sure about any of this I just don't think he's given the chance to grow as a character they way his ancestors are. Shame.

Anyway Blackhawk wonders on trying to find its direction (I think 139 might see that start) and Dredd continues to delight. Wolfie Smith is the surprise I'm enjoying this far more than I remember enjoying the early stories and it looks great. Two new strips to come and I know one of them I controvesially don't like so we'll see which way the balance swings at this late turning point in 1979's proggage.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 September, 2016, 09:33:17 PM
2000ad 1979

Well the year hasn't been quite so tumultuous as 1978, even though the still young Prog has gone through another merger it hasn't quite had the highs nor lows of the previous year. Well not overall, certain stories have hit those extremes.

For me 1979 is most significent for Dredd consistently being the best thing in the Prog for almost entire year. I'm sure there was the odd prog were Strontium Dog, Ro-Busters or ABC Warriors nipped in to grasp thrill of the week. The odd prog. Week in, week out though Dredd firmly establishes itselfs the best thing in Tharg's kingdom. Now this might seem an odd thing for me to say as I was raving about Dredd for the bulk of 1978, certainly during The Cursed Earth. I adore that story but lets be honest its a bit of an anomaly. While it might give clear vision of Dredd as a man removed from the system that shapes him, its the strips after the delightfully full on Day the Law Died that really see the strip defining itself fully. I've discussed that before so I'll say no more.

Elsewhere the real stars of the year are the robots. Ro-Busters and ABC Warriors really standing heads and tail above the other non Dredd strips, with Strontium Dog and Robo-Hunter being unsurprisingly in the following pack. There are no hidden gems in the less famous stories and while there are some stinkers, Angel, Rick Random, Disaster 1999 and most of Dan Dare they're normally balanced with some good stuff. Its always a balance though.

So 1979 sees the Galaxies Greatest steady itself and as the year ends and Blackhawk lurches from one choatic direction change to the next, Stainless Steel Rat promises much delight and the VCs... well I'll save my thoughts on that to next time I think... we beckon in a new decade and I think and interesting time for a Prog now finding its direction and balance as it totters on into its 4th year.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: chiefy2shoes on 09 September, 2016, 08:58:34 PM
For some reason I haven't visited this site for an absolute age. One of the first things that caught my eye was this thread Colin. At the start of the year, like you,  I decided to reread the Prog from the beginning but in a slight twist, to save time, I'm not rereading any Dredd stories. I hope you don't mind me clogging down the thread with my thoughts. As of today I'm up to Prog 520 but will stay in line with your reading Colin.

Flesh 1-19 - In the future when food stores run dry what is a citizenship to do? Travel back in time and slaughter dinosaurs to use as a food source of course. Whilst this is pretty great throughout, the first half is quite a bit superior to the second. Earl Reagan is a dino herder who ends up feuding with the evil Claw Carver but the main star is 'Old One Eye' the vicious Tyranosaur who just won't die. The art is fantastic and I'm looking forward to the next batch of stories.

Dan Dare 1-23 - The art is full of detail, strangeness and beautiful horror like images. Not surprising it's so good as the artist is Belardinelli. The story? Hhmm It starts off okay with DD doing some space exploring but then it gets weird and not in a good way. A race called the Biogs, who have a living spaceship, kidnap Dare and some other giant dude called Monday and do strange things with their minds. It's a confusing mess to be honest. Writer Kelvin Gosnell is the culprit but Steve Moore handles the script for the next arc so we'll see if it improves. I was in luck as the next arc is indeed much better. Okay, so it might still be a bit weird. DD flys into the heart of a giant red sun, his new partner is a talking man-dog, old school villain the Mekon returns and he has a two headed cronie at his disposal. The writing is better and we still have Belardinelli on art so it's win-win.

Invasion 1-26 - It's the near future of 1999, Prince Charles is now the King of England, the US has withdrawn from NATO and the former Russia is now the Volgan Republic which invades the UK. Pockets of resistance form and right on the front line is lorry driver Bill Savage. Pat Mills created this strip so of course the lead character Savage is an anti authoritarian figure. Aside from Bill there are hardly any recurring support characters except his right hand man Silk and so far we haven't seen any of the architects behind the invasion or leaders of the Volgan army. Writer Gerry Finley-Day doesn't offer up any motivation for the Volgs invasion so we don't find out exactly what's going on. The thing is, it doesn't really matter because the writing is top notch and each strip barrels along at such a break neck pace, all you need to know is that Savage hates the Volgs and always has a plan to dispatch as many as he can. Mike Dorey and Carlos Pino handle most of the art and it really hits the mark. More proof that black and white can be muchbetter than colour when done right. These are all single prog episodes but next issue features the first multi-part story. I can't wait.

M.A.C.H. 1 - 1-26 - Man Activated by Compu-puncture Hyperpower. What a mouthful. This is 2000 ad's answer to the six million dollar man and John Probe even looks like Lee Majors. Whereas Invasion stayed fairly grounded, due to the almost superhero nature of MACH 1, the stories are a bit more outlandish and most tend to be goofy. There are the occasional good episodes but overall it's a bit weak. Quite a few artists contribute and the best episodes are the ones drawn by the excellent Jose Redondo.

Dan Dare 28-51 - DD has been tasked to investigate the Lost Worlds, a place where none who have ventured there have ever returned. I'm not sure what made him think he'd be any different! He assembles a crew by bascially antagonising them into wanting to kill him but when they hear about the mission, for some reason they're all on board. The first and second arcs are not great with super cheesy dialogue and hokey plotting. The Starslayer story which kicks in with prog 36 is bit of an upturn. DD frees a bunch of slaves and they all unite to battle the evil space pirate that rules that sector of space. Dave Gibbons provides excellent art throughout all these progs. Also, as an interesting twist towards the end of the run the story begins on the front cover.

Invasion 27-51 - Like the first 26 progs that precede these, it's mainly just Bill Savage finding new ways to take out the invading Volgans. A slight change is that rather than just single episodes we get a few multi parters which gives a few characters a chance to develop a bit (mainly Prince John who is trying to get back to Canada). Things get a little silly with when Nessie, a female wrestler appears who tricks the Volgs by posing as the Loch Ness monster. Prog 36 is a real highlight as it's drawn by the sublime Ian Kennedy who was a regular on Commando. 51 progs is a lot to try and stay original and there is quite a lot of repetition and the main theme is that of supposed allies turning traitor. One double agent is a guy called 'Georgia' who bears a striking resemblance to 'The Russian' from the Ennis/Dillon Punisher run.

M.A.C.H. 1 27-46 - More great art but weak stories. There's one where Probe is sent to investigate a downed UFO and goes undercover as a lumberjack. The team leader of the lumberjacks tests him by punching him in the gut. wtf? We never find who is behind MACH 1's missions or what their organisational directive is. He takes part in some really varied stuff like the aforementioned UFO investigation, climbing Everest, foiling robberies and battling hyper-women, hyper-dogs and hyper-kiddies. It's readable but nothing special.
Harlem Heroes 1-27 - Hmm. I really wanted to like this. Dave Gibbons on art duties is a good start and the first few episodes are promising. It's a concept reminiscent of Rollerball in that it's a future sport (Aeroball) that appeals due to it's violent nature. Rather than ride motorbikes though, these guys fly around with jetpacks. In fact it's more like an extra violent version of Quidditch. Early on we see the Heroes team bus in a devastating crash that injures or kills half the team. What we then get is a recruitment drive with the standard formulaic additions of wily veteran, young punk kid and former team members brought back into the fold. It would have be cool to focus on these individual characters but instead we get pages and pages of Aeroball action that gets very repetitive quickly. The other main plot thread is that someone is suspected of sabotaging the initial bus crash. Helping the Heroes get to the bottom of this is the brain of former member Louis Mayer. That's right, his brain was the only thing that survived the crash and now he can speak. Future science is great! Overall it dragged on too long and the reveal at the end is a bit groan inducing.

Shako 20-35 - This repeats a lot of what happened in Flesh. Giant creature being hunted by two people who don't get along, fights them off, gets injured, presumed dead, not dead etc. It starts off well but for me gets too silly like when Shako is hiding in a school classroom with coats thrown over him. I preferred Flesh to be honest although this does have one of the greatest tag lines ever - Shako, the only bear on the C.I.A. deathlist!

Future Shocks 25-38, 40-42 - A lot of these are just 2 or 3 pages which is not an easy platform for a story. There is the usual mix of mistaken identities, time travel and alternate realities and my favourite one was a vampire take called Fangs in prog 34 drawn by King Carlos.

The Visible Man 47-52 - This is kind a frankenstein story with a guy on the run as he becomes something of a monster after getting drenched in sludge. It's really cheesy and poorly scripted with one of the opening panels proclaiming, 'Radio active waste turned him into an apparition so terrible even alley cats are frightened at sight of him!' It would be 24 years until TVM returned in prog 1771. This is a pretty cool image though.

M.A.C.H. 1 53-64 - The Dolphin Tapes kicks things off and it's a strange tale of Probe investigating a shady organisation that has stolen some government files with the goal of making a Fish man. It's silly. Pat Mills comes on board to script The Final Encounter and it's ufo, little green men, robot MACH men and double cross filled clustermuck. Art was great throughout the series but I was glad it was over...

M.A.C.H. 0 65-72 - ...Or was it. Probe's predecessor get's his own series and it a direct riff on Frankenstein's monster. The lumbering brute speaks in broken English and it's over the top bizarreness and not in a good way. Apparently he's searching for his son and accidentally upstages Cousin George , an American stuntman, during a daredevil show. George, who dresses like a superhero, tries hunting Zero, catches him and chains him up like a bond villain. The arcs that followed I glossed over without reading thoroughly.

Death Planet 62-70 - Great art by Lopez but below par writing from Alan Hebden. The potential is there. A space mission to colonise a new planet goes wrong and leaves the crew stranded. There's a fight for leadership, strange life forms and then out of nowhere a mystery villain crops up with about 4 episodes to go and then it all wraps up lickety-split for an unsatisfying conclusion.

Colony Earth 52-61 - This is War of the Worlds meets Independence Day with a splash of Invasion/Bill Savage and I enjoyed it. Naval captain James Hunter takes on the Bill Savage role of a man leading a resistance against an alien invasion. It all kicks off in the first few pages, as a lot of 2000 ad strips do, and we get a bit of archaeology, hidden mysteries and then the appearances of the all important UFO/aliens. Jim Watson, who had drawn Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet, writes and draws this series and it looks fantastic. Loads of detail in each panel, clean lines and cracking action splashes. His script is also fast paced and keeps everything flowing. The only criticism is that it ends rather abruptly.

Harlem Heroes: Inferno 36-75 - 'Faster than Speedway! crazier than Ice Hockey! Tougher than Football! Deadlier than Aeroball! It's Inferno'. That's the tagline and in reality it's a cross between Rollerball and Aeroball (from the first series that I still don't really understand the rules of). Initially Giant proclaims it's organised mayhem with no skill and has no desire to get involved in the sport but 3 panels later he's agreed to play! By episode 3 we've terms like double-hitch hike, flick-pick and semi-score but real understanding of how the game is played. Story wise it's pretty much the same as last time. Loads of match stuff with a side plot involving the Heroes, who are now the Hellcats, being framed for match fixing. Half way through the series the actual game play takes a back seat as Artie Gruber returns from the grave and takes centre stage. I'm really on the fence here. At 40 episodes it's a bit too long and in parts the hokey scripting is too much but this could be some of the best art Belardinelli ever produced so it gets a pass from me.

Future Shocks 45-56, 58-60, 66, 70, 74 - As with the previous batch of FS's there are tales of mistaken identities, time travel and alternate realities. My favourite one was Fugitive from prog 66. It's only one and a half pages but has a nice little twist.

Walter the Wobot 50-68 - These one pagers aren't much to wrote home about and are mainly semi funny comedy strips. The best of the bunch is Walter's Brother from 52-56. It's an origin story of sorts and even features Mercury from The Metal Men.

Dan Dare 52-85 - Chris Lowder writes the bulk of these and most are not bad although there are some stinkers in there. The real star though is Dave Gibbons and for me his work here is easily the equal of something like Watchmen.

Ant Wars 71-85 - An unidentified military operation is taking place in a south American jungle and there just so happens to be a random scientist with them who just so happens to have an experimental insecticide with him. Of course when one of the soldiers complains about ant bites the super brain uses the insecticide and whammo! giant ants. Oh dear. It's silly stuff with a terrible plot and poor script but weirdly has a somewhat interesting story. The art is also pretty good. However, when certain things start happening such as, the ants gaining super intelligence, donning disguises (yes they disguise themselves as a Rio carnival float), playing dead and then sprouting wings, it just got too much for me.

Robo-Hunter: Verdus 76-84, 100-112 - This starts off well but for me descends into too much comedy and the robot versions of every house hold appliance start to get annoying quickly. Also, and I realise this might not be a popular opinion, I'm not really a fan of Ian Gibson's art.

Ro-Busters 86-101 - There's a real mixed bag of stories here and they'll worth a read. Amongst them the Ro-Busters help out a disaster area which is a good laugh, Ro-Jaws gets taken in like a rescued puppy by a little girl, there's a story with big robots fighting with yet more cracking Dave Gibbons art and a great story featuring Hammerstein's war tales.

Flesh: Book 2 86-99 - Having now been reminded of his work on Dan Dare, Harlem Heroes and now Flesh, I think Belardinelli should be considered one of the all time greats of 2000 ad (to be fair he probably already is). I've still got Mean Team and Ace Trucking to come and next up is Blackhawk which I've not read before. Anyway, Flesh Book 2 is a fun romp, this time through the triassic period and is based on farming sea based dinos. Claw Carver returns and is as mean and vile as ever and again he is matched up against a massive beast, this time Big Hungry! It's more consistent that the first series and the art, as you'd expect, is to die for.

Strontium Dog: The Galaxy Killers 86-94 - Didn't feel this at all. Sure, King Carlos' art is good but the story is rubbish and the characters don't come across very strongly.

Angel 95-99 - Fortunately this was the only extended strip written by Chris Stevens. A man crashes his jet fighter and has the flight computer molded onto his shoulder which lets him somehow controls machines. What the hell? It's a poor man's MACH 1. Avoid.

Future Shocks 76-78, 80-83, 85, 88-90, 93-98 - Nothing much to write about here.

Dan Dare: Servant of Evil 100-107, 109-126 - More brilliant Gibbons art, that's the first point. Secondly Tom Tully comes on board as writer and although the story begins a bit shakily, DD gets easily duped by The Mekon, it soon ramps up the action and tension and has the makings of true epic. I say makings as at the end of prog 126 there is a caption that says 'Dan Dare will return soon' but the strip never materialises again so the story stays unfinished.

Ro-Busters: Fall & Rise of Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein 103-115 - Big fan of this. Cracking art from O'Neill and McMahon and funny scripts from Mills make this a great read. The over the top droids make it even better. Dr Feeley Good is a highlight but Little Mo the super nice cleaning droid also gets some laughs. Also, I'd be amazed if Futurama's Bender wasn't based on Ro-Jaws.

Strontium Dog: Journey into Hell 104-118 - Starts off really strong with a tense chase scene as Johhny, Wulf and The Gronk are in hot pursuit of former Stront Fly-Eye Wagner. Things get a bit strange when they all get transported to Hell and then even weirder when they encounter Mr Sun and Mr Moon. Hhhmm, that's back to back misses for me as far as SD is concerned.

Rick Random: Riddle of the Astral Assassin 113-118 - This is a futuristic murder mystery set during some inter planetary trade negotiations. It's over plotted, over scripted and uninteresting. Nice clean art though from Ron turner.

A.B.C. Warriors 119-139 - This is a tale of two halves. The first part includes the standard 'team formation' episodes where all the warriors are gathered together. This was actually my favourite section as we get some key background info on Mongrol, Blackblood, Deadlock and Steelhorn. The next half sees the warriors journey to Mars to do something. I'm not quite sure what their actual mission was. It's okay but seems a bit of a hodge podge of ideas. The five brained Mad George is fun though. Art is by O'Neill, McMahon, Gibbons, Ezquerra and McCarthy so nuff said.

Invasion: Disaster 1990 119-139 - Remember all those great Bill Savage tales from Invasion? Well this is set 9 years prior to the Volgan invasion and features our erstwhile hero trying to survive an ecological disaster. The polar ice caps have melted due to a nuclear submarine explosion (it all happens on page 1) and the country is suddenly flooded. Finley-Day can't seem to recapture the magic of those earlier stories and instead we get Bill travelling the country via boat stopping crime and generally pissing people off. Missable.

Project Overkill 119-126 - Then editor Steve McManus wanted the comic to be more of an adventure comic than a sci-fi one so we get more guff like this. It's about secret government groups, murder, mistaken identities and other rubbish.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 September, 2016, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: chiefy2shoes on 09 September, 2016, 08:58:34 PM
For some reason I haven't visited this site for an absolute age...

Cos you were writing that exception, if long post!

Quote from: chiefy2shoes on 09 September, 2016, 08:58:34 PM
I hope you don't mind me clogging down the thread with my thoughts.

Not at all, its always a pleasure to see you about Chief. The more people joining in chatting about the Prog the better I say.

Mind I hope that means we'll also get scans of more sketches you've collected elsewhere on the board?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: chiefy2shoes on 09 September, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
Quote
Mind I hope that means we'll also get scans of more sketches you've collected elsewhere on the board?

I have a few small ones that I'll stick up at the weekend.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 September, 2016, 09:30:15 PM
Okay so I'm quite a bit behind Chief so I'd better get a move on and with that I'm 6 progs into 1980 and onto...

The beauty of Prog 150 and the beast of my opinion.

Prog 150 marks a point where I think I'm going to diverge most significently with 'popular' 2000ad opinion and I know this will last for some time. Okay there will be common ground of course Dredd continues to be sublime, even when written by Mr Mills, the Prog is an artist delight... mind even there my divergance can be found. I run very much hot and cold with Belardinelli and while I should love the glorious crazy of his art here it just jars with me here. As does the story, pretty poor.

We probably all agree that Ian Gibson's return in Robo-hunter sees art of staggering beauty in this great opener, we probably don't when I reveal I really don't enjoy VCs. Its looks good, but given its (often) Cam Kennedy not as GREAT as I'd expect. The story is just cyclic and if I honest I find the crew a little annoying.

Fiends of the Eastern Front rounds off the Prog and a story of vampires helping nazi in 1941 on the Russian front should of course be glorious... but its G.F.D or Great (idea) Fumbled Delievery. Its not as bad as many GFDs but its just pretty poorly realised, so its a kids story but it feels so clunky.

So yeah for many I think this Prog could mark a real high point, for me its 50 - 50 at best and I know there's more of my nonsense down the 1980 pipe...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 10 September, 2016, 12:08:03 AM
I have just finished reading my TPB of Harlem Heroes and Inferno and to be honest it has been hard going. I have had it for what 2, possibly 3 years and it has taken me that long to read it. ( Still I have had V for Vendetta for about 8 years and have still only read a third of it :lol:).

I had read some of Harlem Heroes before, mainly what had been reprinted in annuals, but not Inferno. ( I also have extreme edition 13 which covered only HH and was published in 2006 and hadn't read it all).

I guess that tells you everything you need to know...but I will make a few comments anyway.

As Chiefy points out it is a bit repetitive and the rules of either game are never fully explained. Some of the characters seem to die from fairly minor injuries, especially [spoiler]Conrad King and Hairy [/spoiler]in the last episode of HH.

Tom Tully basically repeats the plot of Harlem Heroes in Inferno i.e. some-one trying to wipe out the team for extremely tenuous reasons. In HH there is a laughable panel showing the villain in silhouette but it is obvious who it is (as if we hadn't guessed anyway). In Inferno he doesn't even bother to hide who the culprits are - but we don't get to know their names till later.

He also seems to be not paying attention to his own script in Inferno. When the Wolves manager is first introduced he says his name is Don Wepner. Two weeks later his name is Charlie Vance.

In both Inferno and Harlem Heroes it seems you don't have to be a (current) professional player to get on a team. Just pulling some-one off the street will do. Nor does it seem you have to register players in advance or even name substitutes - team a player short (as one has just been killed)? No worries just promote a cheerleader to player. Doesn't matter that she has never played before or even practised.

In true Adam West Batman fashion, if you want to kill the hero, you need to come up with an elaborate scheme. Why shoot them when you can track down a presumed dead cyborg and implant a radio in their brain to control them?

Oh and watch out for the ball - throw it too hard and it goes into white heat, killing everyone in its path. hmmm not sure how that works.

The end of Inferno feels incredibly rushed. I am sure I have read some where they basically decided to wrap it up to make way for the merger with Starlord - but that doesn't quite make sense as that wasn't for another 11 weeks. Anyway [spoiler]most of the team are killed off in 3 pages - but given the lack of character development over the story, it has zero emotional impact anyway.[/spoiler]

But, but, but...you do get great art from Dave Gibbons and Massimo Belardnelli, two totally bonkers future sports and at least an attempt at an ongoing story arc (which seemed to be missing from the mostly totally episodic Invasion and Mach 1.)

I do have a vague memory of Inferno being the strip that originally put me off buying 2000AD. As I have posted before I originally started by reading Starlord and was only vaguely aware of 2000AD. Starlord used to regularly feature ads for 2000AD and I had read the 1977 2000Ad Summer Special. Based on the ads in Starlord I remember flicking through 2000AD in the newsagents and seeing what a thought was an incredibly violent scene from Inferno featuring the bikes and thinking na that's not for me. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: maryanddavid on 10 September, 2016, 12:55:04 AM
Inferno was wrapped up quickly because of the violence causing all sorts of trouble for editorial.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 September, 2016, 07:10:26 AM
Quote from: maryanddavid on 10 September, 2016, 12:55:04 AM
Inferno was wrapped up quickly because of the violence causing all sorts of trouble for editorial.

Yeah it course big problems coursed by the strip. Rushed endings are a major problem for stories in 2000ad's early history. Someone here explained (sorry I can't remember who) the old policy of keeping a strip going as long as it was popular. Then as soon as it slipped, or editorial decided for one reason or another than it needed wrap up the writer would be given a week or twos notice. Hence many great long running stories have pretty jarring endings. Just look at Flesh 2!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 10 September, 2016, 08:06:08 AM
Right so you can just imagine the scene:

Setting Tharg's office -

Tharg: sorry Tom we are getting complaints that Inferno is just too violent. I am afraid you are going to have to wrap it up.

Tom Tully: oh ok.

Tharg: any ideas?

Tom Tully: sure thing, [spoiler]I'll just kill them all off except for Giant.[/spoiler]

Tharg: that'd be fine.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 September, 2016, 09:41:48 PM
So 1980 is charging along (Prog 161) and what have we learnt? Well to my surprise, so far

Day of the Droids >> Verdus. Its bloomin' great, lovin' it.

Blackhawk never did find its way. It lurched and slumbled along never really having a purpose or focus. Much like Inferno then this meant that Belardinelli's art just doesn't work. It just adds to the chaos and confusion the story wallows in.

Both Fiends of the Eastern front and VCs show that Gerry Finley-Day can come up with a fantastic idea, be given the best artistd and still make a story read like a hack job. I'm going to say it now and I'll not apologise he really isn't a good writer at all. Now I admit this sweeping statement is based on a 44 year old reading kids stories. The thing other stories written by different writers have a real craft to them and hold up, even in the context in which they were created. For me GFD just lacks the craft and deft skill to take a kids comics and make it something great to read. Yes its my age, yes its my older eye but his stories just don't hold up...

... I know, I know, I'll get my coat and leave quietly by the back door.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2016, 10:17:16 PM
No... you're right. I don't get the push to rehabilitate GFD. Most of what he wrote was rubbish, mitigated by great art. I think Fiends is his best work in 2000AD possibly because it's the least like a 2K story... I exclude Harry 20, which is comfortably the best series with his name on it, because Alan Grant did a wholesale rewrite on it.

Rogue was a great character, but it's important to remember that GFD's original concept was for a soldier like the 'Euro-fighter' plane... his legs were made by one country, his arms by another... it took an editorial conference to whip the idea into shape, and it wasn't that long before we were getting Fort Neuro and disco dancing Rogue and even the twelve-year-old me was thinking "This needs to stop now..."
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 September, 2016, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2016, 10:17:16 PM
No... you're right. I don't get the push to rehabilitate GFD. Most of what he wrote was rubbish, mitigated by great art. I think Fiends is his best work in 2000AD possibly because it's the least like a 2K story... I exclude Harry 20, which is comfortably the best series with his name on it, because Alan Grant did a wholesale rewrite on it.

Harry 20 looms on my re-read horizon and if I'm honest I'm not looking forward to it, I didn't enjoy it last time, but lets see how I get on with it this. I know how popular it is (mind then so is the original VCs). Given that I've not enjoyed Alan Grant's early work on Blackhawk that's not given me much hope!

I still stand by the fact that Ant Wars is the best thing he did for the Prog but I've found myself thinking about how that can be. Especially given the fact that unlike so many of his other stories this one is largely derided I think. For me though it works better with his writing as it has such a B movie set-up. To that end his awkward dialogue and clumsy, forced plotting feels at home. I think this allows me to set aside my normal misgivings and just roll with the immense fun of it all...

... or given that I'm a simple soul maybe I shouldn't be looking too far beyond COOL GIANT ANTS...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 16 September, 2016, 02:49:49 PM
I'm just rereading Robohunter:Verdus and there's a horribly racist sequence when Sam falls asleep and dreams about "how the world should be" - two robots with golliwog style negro fetaures kiss his feet while calling him "Master Sam, sure enough", whilst the asian company man who sent him to verdus starts speaking like an old Fu manchu film, addressing him as "the gleat lobohunter". It makes "Blakee Pentax" look positively PC!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 17 September, 2016, 09:15:27 AM
I get that GFD's work isn't close to the level of sophistication as Wagner, Grant or Mills, let alone any of Tharg's more modern droids, but there's something about his work that zips along. When you're working with great artists, a fantastic idea can be enough to stretch a long way, although I've no doubt editorial input was pretty key for a lot of stuff (I think MacManus did quite a bit on VCs, for example).

On the racism in RoboHunter, specifically the Verdus bit. Now, of course it's indefensible, but here's a darker reading for you...

In the future, when people are busy constructing all these robots and imbuing them with bizarrely human personalities, imagine someone deliberately designs and creates golliwog robots so that lazy white masters can recapture dreams of the 'good old days'...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 17 September, 2016, 09:56:15 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 16 September, 2016, 02:49:49 PM
I'm just rereading Robohunter:Verdus and there's a horribly racist sequence when Sam falls asleep and dreams about "how the world should be" - two robots with golliwog style negro fetaures kiss his feet while calling him "Master Sam, sure enough", whilst the asian company man who sent him to verdus starts speaking like an old Fu manchu film, addressing him as "the gleat lobohunter". It makes "Blakee Pentax" look positively PC!
I've never read classic Robo-Hunter, don't have time for shite like this!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 17 September, 2016, 11:40:53 PM
.
That's a pity. I've just reread Robo-Hunter from Verdus through to Play It Again, Sam, which confirmed those stories as some of the best work Wagner, Grant and Gibson ever did. I was crying with laughter during National Song Week.

I'm not urging you to read it*, but it's a pity Robo-Hunter's only ever mentioned here in this context. You'd be forgiven for forming the impression it's a vicious race hate tract that just happens to feature some comedy robots.

Without disputing the excellent Dan's reading of that dream sequence, "golliwog" might be reaching a little**, and the dialogue reads "mister Sam", rather than "master". There's a lot to be said about context, but that's a can of worms.


* I'm fairly certain the stuff mentioned above means you couldn't enjoy it

** One looks like Boushh and the other has the same big eyes and ooh-shaped mouth as Cutie and the other anthropomorphic droids
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 September, 2016, 10:37:08 PM
Over half way through 1980 and things have taken an interesting turn and not exactly for the better.

Two of the best things in the Prog are on a bit of a downward trajectory. Dredd which has been so good, for so long has bit a bit of a rough patch... what you cry, what am I talking about you demand... well I'm up to Prog 169 and while 'The Judge Child' started really well, once it blasted off and lurches off into space I've found it a little ... unrestrained. It still looks magnificent and while the strip is not as good as Dredd has been for a good long time its still pretty bloomin' good comics. Its just not great. Its lacks some of the grounding that has made previous run of shorts work... which okay sounds nonsense when you think of some of the stuff that has gone before, but for me the out and out space type sci-fi (please Butchy Frank lets not turn this into some what is sci-fi and what isn't discussion) just doesn't feel quite right.

Hard to justify and qualify why I feel like this and while Judge Child follows essentially the same formula as Cursed Earth for some reason its lost the rugged challenge, the desperate journey of the first epic so viseral and real as Dredd and crew get slowly more and more ragged. The quest for the spacey soothsayer spice feels a little forced and tacked on. The craziness lacks the harsh landscape that provides a counterpoint in the earlier epic... or maybe its the fact that it is just following the same structure as Cursed Earth, a story I regard so very highly... I don't know its just not working for me... well not as well as Dredd has of late. Its probably still absolutely brilliant and probably still the best comics out there in 1980, just not as good as the standard Dredd has set itself.

Similarly the second half of Day of the Droids has fallen from its very high peak. Its all got a bit chaotic and again unrestrained. Its becoming wacky. Ever since Sam hit Robo-Park or whatever its called its been all bets off, hell for leather crazy and for me that's just not work as well as the more measured (well again measured in the context of a comic like Robo-hunter!) stuff that's gone before. Again like Dredd its still really fun stuff, just its lost that absolute wow factor of the first half.

Elsewhere the Prog has proved richly varied, GFD stuff still kind stinks up the place and M.A.C.H 0 is cruelly and crudely cast aside after a wonderful first solo story some time ago. BUT Wolfie Smith is on absolute fire with his return ably abetted as he is driven down a road of crime by simply perfect Jesus Redondo art. Stainless Steel Rat has made a welcome and so far entertaining return, and we had our first taste of Nemesis. So the balance just about remains in the positive. Its a close run thing though.

On a side note the Prog as an artifact is on an absolute high. One of the joys of reading the progs rather than collections is the context and world reading the originals throws you back to. The adverts in these bog paper comics create the perfect nostagia time machine, which really aids the reading process and reading these stories in their orignal form is so evocative. Its making me want to get to eBay and track down some Pocketeers... though I suspect my memory of them is best left unfettered by reality!


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 24 September, 2016, 03:01:16 AM
This is interesting, because I far prefer Judge Child to Cursed Earth.  There are a few different segmemnts (Limpopo Quince never did anything for me and biochip/wild alien stuff is a bit business as usual), but these are more than compensated for by Filmore Faro, Aggross, Murd,  Bedlam, the hungry planet, Dredd's new improved supporting cast, and the Angel Gang themselves: some of the greatest set pieces in the strip's history, and some of its most enduring characters.

Plus, Dredd actually dies, none of your modern cliffhanger fakery here.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 24 September, 2016, 03:02:38 AM
That's 'a few duff segments', kids: don't drink and post.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 24 September, 2016, 04:45:09 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 September, 2016, 10:37:08 PM
Butchy Frank

You post this now, after the deadline to change user names has passed?!

Agree with you and TordelBack: The Judge Child is clearly a very good eight to twelve part story [1] which has had a couple of month's worth of filler material shoved in the middle to make up the numbers.

Except the 'filler' includes some of the most beautifully illustrated, inventive, and funny one/two parters in the strip's history. It probably doesn't stand up to reading as a continuous narrative [2], but then it was meant to be read in weekly instalments.

Like The Apocalypse War, you can tell Wagner [3] was writing it to the required length, rather than with a specific ending in mind, but I like the way the old epics just suddenly wrap up because that's enough for now and it'll not be this in the morning.



[1] About the baldy kid being kidnapped by some truly brilliant original characters and Dredd searching Texas City and the Cursed Earth to find them.

[2] Although I can't remember ever trying to do so. For me, a Judge Child re-read entails starting with the Angel gang's hilarious cruelty when torturing Old Joe Blind and then picking out random episodes in no particular order.

[3] And, towards the very end, Grant
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 25 September, 2016, 10:20:50 AM
I will limit my comments in this thread to stories I have actually re-read recently as I guess the whole point is how do we view them now years later as adults. So sadly that means I can't comment on Robo-Hunter or The Stainless Steel Rat or Wolfie Smith.

As to the Judge Child- it was the first Dredd mega epic I read and as such it will always be special to me. Maybe, Colin, how one views it against The Cursed Earth does very much depend on which one you read first. For me the Judge Child is far superior and The Cursed Earth is a less sophisticated trial run.

The Judge Child also features some of the best 1 or 2 partners and individual sequences in Dredd ever and some of the most memorable villains ever - it's Pa and Junior for me over Mean all day long.

(Being pedantic I have never actually read the Cursed Earth in its entirety in the correct order, given that I don't have the Progs and didn't have the banned episodes until recently. When I got my Uncensored edition all I did was read the banned episodes and then look at the colour spreads. So maybe only having read an incomplete tale in black and white and being a bit miffed about it has had an impact on how I view it. Glorious Bolland art though).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 September, 2016, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 25 September, 2016, 10:20:50 AM
Maybe, Colin, how one views it against The Cursed Earth does very much depend on which one you read first.

Yeah this is almost certainly the case. Its really hard for me to detach myself from how special Cursed Earth felt to me as a kid. That said trying to be objective I still feel it has a much stronger central thread AND the smaller story elements are superior to those in Judge Child. And ya know SATANUS!

Anyway some things we learnt on our way to the big Prog 178.

1. Stainless Steel Rat leaves us with a timey whiney cope out (which of course might have been very original when first told, but feels tied now. Thats very possibly unfair) and we were denied a climatic show down with He.

2. The cover to Prog 175 is the exception that proved the rule I whittered about elsewhere being that Dave Gibbons is just SOOOOoooooo Dave Gibbons. There's no way I'd say that cover was Mr Gibbons if he hadn't signed it. So unGibbons.

3. Wolfie Smith is wrapped up cruelly quickie, with a very odd comedic little ending... well okay somewhat saved by the mauling of baddie by a pack of rats.

4. No one, I mean NO ONE draws Wolfie Smith like Jesus Redondo. Its a strip that's perfect for him and he really elevates. Wish we'd got more...

5. Although hopefully if we had Wolfie would have got a little more imaginative than winning a teddy by cheating at bingo to pay for a fish supper....

6. Though yeah if he had it would have removed the charm of the series.

7. The Great Human Rip-off lets you know all you need to know about why Tharg stories always felt so special when I was a kid

8. I'm far to excited about the return of Strontium Dog, I always forget how long it was out the Prog after going to Hell.

9. I can never remember number 9.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 27 September, 2016, 10:36:45 PM
Prog 178 ...just one of the most important Progs of all time for me. But on the way up to it, there is surely one of the biggest moments ever in the Prog. Though I guess no-one would have realised it at the time. At the time it was merely a very cool story with amazing art.

What am I talking about?

Just Comic Rock - Terror Tube in Prog 167.

How I love that story both as a stand alone and as a lead into one of the most iconic 2000AD stories of them all.

I never tire of reading it , nor indeed Killer Watt in Progs 178 and 179.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: PsychoGoatee on 28 September, 2016, 05:09:33 AM
Cursed Earth (and the double bill with The Day The Law Died) are what really sold me on Judge Dredd, and I read them for the first time in maybe 2006. I do like both of those better than Judge Child, which is also great, granted I read them in chronological order.

Just saying for the record, Cursed Earth still rocks if read for the first time these days too, or something like that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 September, 2016, 06:37:23 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 27 September, 2016, 10:36:45 PM
Prog 178 ...just one of the most important Progs of all time for me. But on the way up to it, there is surely one of the biggest moments ever in the Prog. Though I guess no-one would have realised it at the time. At the time it was merely a very cool story with amazing art.

What am I talking about?

Just Comic Rock - Terror Tube in Prog 167.

How I love that story both as a stand alone and as a lead into one of the most iconic 2000AD stories of them all.


You know I was desperately trying to think of something to write about Killer Watt but I just couldn't work out what to say. It kinda goes back to what you said before about personal perspective on stories. I just couldn't work out quite how special the story was in the context of the rest of the Prog. Was it was mind blowing or was it just what it meant to me knowing whats to come.

After all Ro-Busters had kinda done a warm up for it, yet its clearly more then just a good Future Shock or similar.

Ended up saying nowt, but very glad you did!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 28 September, 2016, 08:12:15 AM
So totally agree about what it means personally. You see I hadn't read the 2000AD Robusters at the time, so it was Comic Rock that introduced the Termight Tube system to me.

Stuff from this era falls into 3 categories for me:

1) stuff that I read at the time in the Prog

2) stuff that I read in Titan editions a couple of years later: Cursed Earth, Day the Law Died, Robo-Hunter Verdus, 2000AD Ro-Busters.

3) Stuff that I read years later in Extreme Editions and Trades (Flesh books I and II, Invasion, Harlem Heroes, Dan Dare (er haven't actually read it all yet!!)

and it is pretty much that order in which I love them. There is just something about having read them weekly at the time.

Even with the stuff I read only a couple of years later in the Titan editions - I still have a feeling of having "missed out on them" even though I read them as a child, just not at the time they came out.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 01 October, 2016, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 September, 2016, 09:06:24 PM


9. I can never remember number 9.

That's because you forgot why 6 was afraid of 7.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: chiefy2shoes on 01 October, 2016, 03:55:50 PM
Ro-Jaws' Robo Tales Various progs between 144 and 196 - It's doubtful but I'm hoping these get collected in the second volume of the new Ro-Busters books. Great little one-off stories akin to future shocks but all robo centric with a very high hit percentage.

Blackhawk 127-128, 130-161 - Belardinelli art so it looks amazing and the story starts off okay as well. A Roman gladiator is whisked through time to fight in some futuristic games but soon turns on his captors. Unfortunately it's way too long and veers right off course into strange weird happenings that don't really fit the story.

Captain Klep 127-159 - These are one page superhero parody strips and after reading the first couple I skipped the rest.

The Mind of Wolfie Smith 127-134, 136-145 - I didn't get on with this at all. Wolfie is a young lad with some kind of psychic powers that are never really explained. He battles an evil sorcerer then stumbles onto a film set, gets a job and discovers a wendigo creature. It's a shame the great art by Redondo is wasted on the rubbish story.

The Mind of Wolfie Smith Book 2 162-77 - Skim read it and again it appeared poor.

The Stainless Steel Rat 140-151 - Really enjoyed this. I've not liked any of Kelvin Gosnell's strips prior to this but it was a cracking fast paced adventure story.

Timequake 148-151 - This strip is a loose version of Chrononauts except it's better.

The V.C.s 140-143, 145-165, 168-169, 171-175 - Smith is a newly recruited V.C (Vacuum Cleaner) and he joins the standard host of varied misfits as they struggle to push back the alien Geek invasion. Hmm, on the one hand we have art by Cam Kennedy and Mike MacMahon and on the other we have a series of sci-fi war stories that are sometimes good and sometimes poor.

Robo-Hunter: Day of the Droids 152-174 - Having not really liked the first Sam Slade outing I found this much better.

Fiends of the Eastern Front 152-161 - Ezquerr'a art seems to have gone up a notch here, if that's even possible, and this tale of vampire soldiers in a WWII setting has plenty of intrigue. It's by Gerry Finlay-Day so that means we get great action scenes with quite a bit of clunky exposition and overall I'd say it's somewhere between hit and miss.

M.A.C.H. 0 162-165 - Spinoff from an earlier series, this can't hold it's own and I largely skim read it.
The Stainless Rat Saves The  World 166-177 - Following on from his previous appearance, James now works for the good guys but that doesn't mean he's all good. It's a time travel caper and again I really enjoyed it. Ezquerra art always helps.

Dash Decent 178-198 - One page parody strips that are best avoided.
The Mean Arena: The Southampton Sharks 178-180, 182-187, 191-194, 197-202 - This is a Mean Team light tale and isn't very good. That is all.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 October, 2016, 04:31:36 PM
Yeah have to be honest I've not been getting on with the 'comedy' strips at all. Even Kev O'Neill's Madesque artwork on Dash Decent feels lost in The Prog and Captain Klep was just woeful. There's been the odd thing that felt really out of place in the Prog but which services as a reminder of the comics target audience at the time. These short humour strips and things like the 'Space Olympics' guide which just jarred with the edgier stuff in the comic, BUT may well have been very welcome to younger readers at the time coming from Buster, Whizzer and Chips and the like.

All feels a bit like the comedy ending to Wolfie Smith, just not in context.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 October, 2016, 09:18:41 PM
Oh what interesting times we have in the Prog. Dredd is back from his space travels (and I have to say I'm very happy with that) and I think we're about to enter another years worth of shorts that I'm very much looking forward to.

Strontium Dog is back with us in a series of shorter stories too as I recall, though actually Portrait of a Mutant can't be too far off.

Elsewhere we have three long term stories starting, or freshly started, one of which I adore, Return to Armageddon, one I run hot and cold on, so very much looking forward to getting into. Meltdown Man has made an okay start. Finally Mean Arena, which as I recall goes a bit wayward quickly losing sight of any potential it might have had.

Put the thing I want to talk about is Dredd's return to Mega City One in Block War in Prog 182. What an absolute cracker. A beautifully rendered story which fantastically captures Dredd's character. It also felt like it started something that would be a reoccuring theme in Dredd, that being him being at odds with large chunks of the Judicial System and though he's a hero he's also a thorn in the side of many. For a variety of reasons. This theme may have been dealt with before (?) but it really stands out here and this is one of the best Dredd's to date and still one of my all time favourites. Truely brilliant stuff.

Anyway I'll be back soon as I've a big question to ask you all...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 05 October, 2016, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 01 October, 2016, 04:31:36 PM
Yeah have to be honest I've not been getting on with the 'comedy' strips at all. Even Kev O'Neill's Madesque artwork on Dash Decent feels lost in The Prog and Captain Klep was just woeful. There's been the odd thing that felt really out of place in the Prog but which services as a reminder of the comics target audience at the time. These short humour strips and things like the 'Space Olympics' guide which just jarred with the edgier stuff in the comic, BUT may well have been very welcome to younger readers at the time coming from Buster, Whizzer and Chips and the like.

Better stay away from this month's art competition then! ;)
Quote
All feels a bit like the comedy ending to Wolfie Smith, just not in context.

Can't say I remember there being a comedy ending to The Mind of Wolfie Smith?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2016, 10:02:47 PM
2000ad 1980

Quote...we beckon in a new decade and I think and interesting time for a Prog now finding its direction and balance as it totters on into its 4th year.

This is what I said after having read the Progs from 1979. Half right, not bad. See in 1980 2000ad did indeed start to find its balance. The trouble is it was all that interesting. Its not that its been a bad year, its just lacked the extremes of the first three years. Nothing was terrible... though much was pretty poor. Not much was stella.

There were absolute highlights but not that many. First half of Day of the Droids, start of Return to Armegeddon. Strontium Dogs return is a real high and the new shorter stories are really working. The absolute peak was three short episodes of what would become Nemesis. Tharg knew what he was onto here with 'Comic Rocks', even with only 15 odd pages, all of a sudden posters of the characters started springing up. Oh and I guess we should also mention some block call Alan rocks up. We might come back to him.

So yeah I've discussed the highlights without mentioning Dredd. Which is wonky. Cos Dredd is still of course great, its just so... so... not as GREAT as what had gone before. Well the start of the year was still exceptional but as I've already discussed I'm not a big fan of Judge Child and while 'Block War' is an absolute classic some of the shorts after his return to Earth aren't as strong as I'd expected. Notable by some I simply don't remember at all. Loonie Moon escapes my memory. The Maze story I only remember cos I think The Maze was a location in the Dredd boardgame. So yeah Dredd, by its own standards... well those of the previous 2 years just ain't that good.

There's a lot of rot as well, often by the GFD but I've already lambasted much of that so I'll not retread that old ground. So yeah in finding its feet 2000ad has lost a bit of its excitment. Oh there's still the moments of course but they aren't as frequent. We head into 1981 with a very steady line-up of hit and miss strips so when will this steady streak end... well actually that's a question I will be returning to soon. A question for you lot. But first I've got a couple of annuals to read and I know at least one of ums a blinder...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 October, 2016, 09:23:52 PM
A little epilogue to 1980 and that's

A Tale of Two Annuals - 1981 Annuals

Well bloody hell I knew this was the case but the distance between the two Annuals of 1980 (labeled 1981 of course) is staggering. Lets do the tale of the tape.

2000 ad Annual 1981

Length: 128 pages
Cost: £1.50
Apparent value: 1.17 pence per page

Judge Dredd Annual 1981

Length: 96 pages
Cost: £1.80
Apparent value: 1.86 pence per page

So its clear right, the Dredd Annual is an over-priced rip off. None of it, not a piece. Its interesting I've no idea anymore how these would have been recieved as a kid, but I strongly suspect that even then the 2000ad Annual may have pleased parents with it size and cost, but by God it all filler no thriller. 8 pages of decent but not great Dredd, a couple of barely passible Future Shocks and a fantastic Brendan McCarthy splash page for the Strontium Dog text story - the rest, including almost all of the text features is utter codswallop. This took me (admittedly a 44 year old man) about 20 minutes to read... well call it 25, adding five to account for the various bits I started and decided I had better things to do with my time and skipped. Now to its intended audience there's probably more to appeal and better value to be had. But I reckon even as a kid I'd have seen through most of this. Some really dull reprint, soft text pieces and so much recycled art.

Now over at the shorter, more costly Dredd annual - well it took me of an hour half to read and its an absolute masterclass. Even G P Rice, normally pretty hit and miss, turns in a nice Eisner pastiche in his Walter The Wobot strip. Elsewhere we have a lovely Dredd history including the first unused story, Shok which while not a great story is a delight on the eye and of course a wonderful curiosity since 1990. A fantastic Max Normal tale, even if I'm not Casanovas' biggest fan. Okay there's a little filler after that but... BUT

There is also 30 pages of some of the most beautiful (well until next year as I recall) Dredd you will ever see. Now don't get me wrong the stories by Mr Wagner are simply fantastic, particularly 'Compulsory Purchase' which is quiessential Dredd. Its the art however that rules the day. Now in 1980 I'm pretty sure the 30p difference in price between the Dredd and the 2000ad annual would have bought you a decent family car, but it, even to my 8 year old mind, would surely have been worth it for the Mike McMahon art over those 30 pages. Simple devine.

Jesus the 1981 2000ad Annual must have broken kids hearts while the 1981 Dredd Annual must have elevate Christmas' across the land to levels of excitment impossible to equal unless you got a Big Track (I never did, always wanted one).


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 09 October, 2016, 08:18:00 AM
Great Sunday morning read there Colin, keep it up. Completely agree about the 1981 Dredd annual, which I only came by some years later in a parish sale: an absolute gem.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 09 October, 2016, 08:53:39 AM
Much repeated here, but the first Dredd annual is a thing of wonder and I adored it. 1982's, almost as much.

Steve MacManus's book is a revelation on how it came about, too.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 11 October, 2016, 02:34:49 PM
I'm loving this thread, but am curious to know other readers' thinking on one question:
When you look back over 2000AD, do you break it up into chunks by year of publication (as Colin is doing here), or by sets of 100 Progs (my instinctive way of thinking) - even though that usually means lumping two years' worth of stuff together)?

I suppose this might be a function of me not being a Prog one-r, and indeed being so young when reading my first progs that I didn't have much of a sense of real-world dates.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 11 October, 2016, 03:06:37 PM

Eras of 2000ad are determined by how many issues stack comfortably on my shelves. More than 50, less than 100 per stack.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 03:30:41 PM
The way I think about it just isn't all that neat.

Roughly it goes like this:

1)Stuff before I started reading it and before it merged with Starlord (pre Prog 86) - not as mad as it sounds as I have collected editions of most it of it and have subsequently bought the odd Prog.

2) my this is being forced on me and I don't like it period, Progs 86 to 92 when I bought it only as a transferring Starlord reader, missed a couple of weeks and gave up.

3) the "lost period" upto Prog 126 when I didn't buy it (apart from 2)

4) Prog 127 to Mid 200s. The really getting into it phase, loving it all, knowing what story was in what Prog instaneously from memory (then not now)

- Judge Child, great Dredd one offs, Pirates of Black Atlantic, Judge Death, Return to Armageddon, Melt Down Man.

5) Golden Age. Mid 200s to 519 (last newspaper paper Prog).


Nemesis, Slaine even Rogue Trooper.

6) 520 to 699

University days.

Zenith.

7) 700 to when ever Rebellion took over.

Read it but don't really remember it

8) Rebellion years - not sure what Prog to present. New golden era.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 11 October, 2016, 05:09:51 PM
I probably think of eras mainly by the logo. It's only a title but it does set the tone and evokes a time. And almost as much, the paper stock.

As Magnetica says, before-and-after your First Prog feel like different times, which is odd indeed.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 11 October, 2016, 05:11:50 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 03:30:41 PM
6) 520 to 699

University days.

Zenith.

7) 700 to when ever Rebellion took over.

Read it but don't really remember it

That's pretty much my own mental model*. 520-700 - the odd interregnum where painted colour cautiously, uncertainly replaced line art - is my own golden age, with the run of progs containing the finales of Horned God, Final Solution, Zenith: phase three, War Machine, and Necropolis** representing a mini-golden age within a golden age.

It's terrifying how quickly the quality threshold vanishes after prog 700.

To continue the spooky, 127-200 is the only significant run of back issues I ever purchased***. I bought some to plug the gap between 500 and my first prog (511), but they never really felt like they were mine.


* Although I wasn't at uni, grandad

** And, for the sake of balance, Chronos Carnival and Dry Run

*** ... from another kid at school, who hit puberty and decided White Lightning and Rave records represented more pressing demands on his pocket money than a prog where Simon Harrison had replaced Carlos Ezquerra
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 11 October, 2016, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Frank on 11 October, 2016, 05:11:50 PM
they never really felt like they were mine.

Hah! It is true that once those early-prog gaps are filled, they never quite feel genuine, with their defaced cover declaring 'Ferguson' in newsagent biro...   :)

Suppose some must have a stray 'Bobby Bolland' or 'Eric Ezquerra' just to confuse the droids at signings  :|
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Frank on 11 October, 2016, 05:11:50 PM
* Although I wasn't at uni, grandad
Ho-ho-ho. I may be older than some on here*, but I have always considered there are advantages to having been born when I was. e.g.

- witnessing Liverpool's years of domination first hand**
- listening to 80's music first hand**
- watching 80's telly first hand**


but most importantly being of the right age to have read early 2000AD when it came out. ***

And I totally agree about Progs you didn't get at the time not feeling "yours"

* and I am sure there are "plenty" older than me. Well some anyway...by a couple of years at least
** yes I know if I was born at another time I would have been into something else or shock horror a different team
*** even though I missed the first couple of years, but that wasn't because I was the right age, just because I hadn't been introduced to it yet.



Quote from: Frank on 11 October, 2016, 05:11:50 PM

That's pretty much my own mental model*. 520-700 - the odd interregnum where painted colour cautiously, uncertainly replaced line art - is my own golden age

Yes I did toy with defining an era at Prog 589 when they introduced more colour, but if you do that then really you have to consider that the phoney war and that it really starts with Prog 626 and the first episode of the Horned God. A friend of mine at university also read 2000AD and I always remember his comment that he had never seen anything like it.****

But that then lead to the era of the Bisley clones, which wasn't necessary the best idea ever.


**** if a bit murky if we are being totally honest
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 October, 2016, 09:02:48 PM
Well this era thing is making fine reading. While this time I'm dividing by years I'm typically an 'in groups of 100' man myself. I do diverge in quieter moments to periods that are defined by my reading of the comic (though oddly my golden ages are normally defined by the times I've not read the comic regularly, which get an almost mythical presence in my mind... well until I've read them all).

So the early issues (up to around issue 100) are the defining age, when my brother first got the comic and its influence on the way I think and I things I enjoy can't be underestimeted. Then the early 200s until around 300, the second stint of our reading. Finally 416 - 1000 my longest stretch but there's too much change in that run to think of it as a consistent thing. So my thought processes normally default to 100s.

I'm currently only reading in years as its a more practical chunk to read in my 'reading / re-reading list' and makes for a nice way to reflect on the comic as I re-read and the times it fits into.

ANYWAY all this chat and this first comment

Quote from: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 03:30:41 PM
5) Golden Age. Mid 200s to 519 (last newspaper paper Prog).

has nicely segued into the question I've had lingering. My question is therefore... one which you must all answer damnit

When does the first Golden Age of 2000ad start?

My understanding is that commonly held opinion is that the first golden age of 2000ad starts some time in 1981. So as I approach by re-read of that year I'm intrigued to learn when people think this time (the golden age, not 1981 I can answer that one myself) started. What marked this period, can people pin it to a particular Prog? Maybe 222 or 224. Is it 228 or would some people even wait as late as 245? I'm particularly interested as I strongly suspect I won't agree ... which will make the whole reading of 1981 all the more interesting.

Its possibly the year I'm most looking forward to reading, even if I'm not sure it will be close to as good as one might hope? We'll see.

So yeah if you were there at the time, or not, when does the golden stuff get goin'?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 11 October, 2016, 09:24:05 PM
I don't think I've even asked myself that exact question, but... 178 (though I narrowly missed it at the time). The chrome logo appeared and the quality leapt accordingly. 222 and 224 are great but things were already cooking by then I'd say.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 11 October, 2016, 09:29:59 PM
You can't not include the 220s in any classic 2000AD definition. A ten prog slot that has the Gibbons-illustrated debut of Rogue Trooper and Bolland on Judge Death Lives? And you have Portrait of a Mutant running, plus Nemesis Bk1 kicking off. Add in Bellardinelli on Meltdown Man, some great Dredd shorts, and even the fairly lacklustre Mean Arena enlivened by some top-of-his-game work from Dillon.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2016, 10:21:23 PM
The First Golden Age starts with Prog 197.

(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/2000ad/hires/197.jpg)

The temptation to go for the low-hanging fruit of 222 must be resisted, lest you miss Portrait of Mutant and Return to Armageddon by entirely. Yes, you get a lot of Mean Arena in those 6 months, but Dredd has Pirates of the Black Atlantic and the Crime Files running to compensate.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2016, 10:27:25 PM
And of course Unamerican Graffiti... Basically after 197 it's impossible to find a Prog that is less than great.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 11:29:34 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 October, 2016, 09:29:59 PM
You can't not include the 220s in any classic 2000AD definition. A ten prog slot that has the Gibbons-illustrated debut of Rogue Trooper and Bolland on Judge Death Lives? And you have Portrait of a Mutant running, plus Nemesis Bk1 kicking off. Add in Bellardinelli on Meltdown Man, some great Dredd shorts, and even the fairly lacklustre Mean Arena enlivened by some top-of-his-game work from Dillon.

Quote from: TordelBack on 11 October, 2016, 10:21:23 PM
The temptation to go for the low-hanging fruit of 222 must be resisted, lest you miss Portrait of Mutant and Return to Armageddon by entirely. Yes, you get a lot of Mean Arena in those 6 months, but Dredd has Pirates of the Black Atlantic and the Crime Files running to compensate.

Basically after 197 it's impossible to find a Prog that is less than great.

You know you are right..I was going to say 222 and I am pretty sure I have previously called out the 220's as the single greatest set of ten Progs of all time, but as you say prior to that there is just a load of totally amazing stuff and I guess your naming of 197 as the starting point ...well you could well be right.

But actually I am going to go with Fungus's call of 178... (at the risk of slightly contradicting my earlier post ) - total Judge Child awesomeness, Killer Watt, Death's Head leading into what I consider the golden age of Strontium Dog. Even before 197 we get stone cold classic Dredd's: Block War (probably the single best episode following a mega epic), Aggro Dome, Monkey Business at the Charles Darwin Block, Otto Sump's Ugly Clinic...Pirates of the Black Atlantic...before hitting the 200s and  UnAmerica Graffiti and then into the Crime Files as you call them ( I always thought they were called the Mega City Rackets)..then Judge Death Lives. Surely the strongest period of Dredd ever...well until we hit Tour of Duty and on into Day of Chaos.

As for other stuff in the early 200s, well surely there are the greatest future shocks of all time around this period - all by Alan Moore e.g. "The English/Phlondrutian Phrasebook" and The Last Rumble of the Platinum Horde - stories that have gone beyond the normal throw away nature of the future shock.

I have a question of my own - is it just me or do others find the Progs of this era more memorable than any others? I am not sure if it is just because they were relatively at the start of my 2000AD reading "career" and so my memory was less full of other Progs*, or because they were just the best Progs of all time.

(*It is a bit like when I owned only a handful of Albums, I could name every single track on every album I owned. Now I have far more I can't.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 October, 2016, 05:27:45 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 11:29:34 PM

I have a question of my own - is it just me or do others find the Progs of this era more memorable than any others? I am not sure if it is just because they were relatively at the start of my 2000AD reading "career" and so my memory was less full of other Progs*, or because they were just the best Progs of all time.


I'm the same, the early 200's for me are some of the best and most memorable.  That said, I do have a strong recollection of the majority of the 200's.  Perhaps it was because of the time / age I was reading them.  I do agree though that it contained some of the strongest writing and artwork.  The Apocalypse War era was, for my money, marred by the overly comedic Robo Hunter run.

It's also been interesting following some of the comments about era's.  These largely mirror my own and for similar reasons.  The late 80's / early 90's saw a drop off during my RAF days with a brief dalliance down the Falklands during Judgement Day.  It wasn't really until the Pit that I returned fully and never looked back as the prog went from strength to strength, particularly under Rebellion's ownership.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 12 October, 2016, 12:51:41 PM
I wasn't reading at the time, but from re-reads and obsessing over Barney, I'd plump for Prog 178, too. Mean Arena is the weak link, but to be honest I don't know if there has ever been a seriously long stretch of Progs (the odd 5-10 Prog mini-streaks, maybe) that didn't have one less-then-superlative strip. And everything else was SO GOOD.

Picking the end Prog for this era is harder for me. 520? 600? 660, when we start getting Harlem Heroes, Dry Run and so on?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 12 October, 2016, 12:59:41 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 12 October, 2016, 12:51:41 PM
Picking the end Prog for this era is harder for me. 520? 600? 660, when we start getting Harlem Heroes, Dry Run and so on?

Just out of interest, I skipped forward on Barney by 100 progs, or roughly two years, and the 320s into the 330s is just as strong, with top quality Dredd, great Moore shorts, Skizz, Cam Kennedy Rogues, Gibson Robo-Hunter, then Skizz giving way to Slaine, Dredd serving up Cry of the Werewolf, then Nemesis and Strontium Dog coming back into the line-up just as McMahon makes his Slaine debut.

Surely, Prog 335 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=335) has to be a contender for strongest prog in the title's history?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 12 October, 2016, 01:56:44 PM
Good shout. Dredd, Slaine, Nemesis, Stront at or near their peaks ( My Top 4 all time thrills).

When the weakest strip is Rogue Trooper you know it's a good Prog. But those others elevate it to the stratosphere.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 12 October, 2016, 02:54:35 PM
Last time the Best Prog Ever subject came up I think 335 took the honours. In an unscientific, no votes cast as such, wandering thread, kind of a way. Can't think of a better prog, offhand.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 October, 2016, 05:57:35 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 12 October, 2016, 12:59:41 PM
Surely, Prog 335 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=335) has to be a contender for strongest prog in the title's history?

Okay, I'm not sure about either of these but just to add to the mix how about

Prog 626
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=626 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=626)

or

Prog 1634
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1634 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1634)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 12 October, 2016, 06:05:49 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 October, 2016, 05:57:35 PM

Prog 1634
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1634 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1634)
Oh my WORD that is a rather magnificent line up. It's saying something when Savage back when I gave a damn about it, was the poorest thing in the prog.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: SuperSurfer on 12 October, 2016, 10:08:56 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 12 October, 2016, 12:59:41 PM
Surely, Prog 335 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=335) has to be a contender for strongest prog in the title's history?

Features The Moses Incident – in my opinion the finest Strontium Dog story that graced the pages of 2000AD. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 13 October, 2016, 01:21:30 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 11 October, 2016, 11:29:34 PM
I have a question of my own - is it just me or do others find the Progs of this era more memorable than any others? I am not sure if it is just because they were relatively at the start of my 2000AD reading "career" and so my memory was less full of other Progs*, or because they were just the best Progs of all time.

(*It is a bit like when I owned only a handful of Albums, I could name every single track on every album I owned. Now I have far more I can't.)


A good deal of that is just because it's when you started reading it.  I feel exactly the same about the era about two and a half years later (I'd have been a bit young to read Tooth in the time period you describe).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 13 October, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 12 October, 2016, 02:54:35 PM
Last time the Best Prog Ever subject came up I think 335 took the honours. In an unscientific, no votes cast as such, wandering thread, kind of a way. Can't think of a better prog, offhand.


About the third or fourth prog I ever bought (the first one I bought was 330 and for some reason I missed a few weeks - perhaps I'd only ever got non-sequential comics* before then and wasn't in the habit of having to buy them every week).  No wonder I was hooked and am still reading thirty-three years later!


*Beano / Dandy / Whizzer and Chips / etc - they have issue numbers but you don't miss anything if you don't read every issue in order.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 October, 2016, 09:33:16 PM
So Steve Dillons' passing is dominating my thoughts and since I'm reading the Progs around the time he started working on the  Galaxies Greatest I wondered if I'd stumble into one of those funny things and stumble across the issues he first appeared in tonight.

I didn't.

But he was still in my thoughts and it made me reflect on a post I was going to write the other day and didn't get around to and that being about John Richardson. Tonight it seems strangly fitting so here I go. See reading the start of Mean Arena it has real ups and downs, the story has such potential but doesn't really fulfil it, washing around all over the place and lacking direction and focus. The one thing that is constant and positive and very surprising is the art. I'm really, really enjoying John Richardson's art on the strip. Its superb.

The thing is even though I've read this series before, back in the day and a few years ago on re-read I still don't expect his art, nor for it to be around for so long. Now that's no slight on Mr Richardson. He's good, he's really good. Rather its testament to Steve Dillon. Who though on the strip for far less time leaves his mark on it in such a way that I can't think beyond his work on the series. Steve Dillon's work is so great on it it drowns out John Richardsons.

The aim of this post when first conceived was to redemn Richardson's art and highlight its brilliance. Now alas that's changed and regardless of how great his art is all I'm thinking about again is that Steve Dillon's was so supreme that still it dominates my idea of the strip.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 October, 2016, 09:16:17 PM
So early 206 and for some the Golden age is here. I have to disagree... just. Certainly up to issue 200 the Prog has some real highs and the lows are getting smoothed out. Nothing is unreadably bad. Dredd with some stone old classics starting 1981 with The Fink and Return to Armegeddon is great. When Strontium Dog is in the Prog things are top notch too, The Bad Boys Bust a superb short and one of my favourite Johnny Alpha stories, so much squeezed into 4 short parts. But Mean Arena is, art aside, just all over the place and I don't warm to Meltdown Man as much as others (I'll be returning to this and Armageddon next time as I've been trying to work out why I love one so much and the other not at all). Some cute Tharg shorts too. Nothing is terrible, but its not quite golden

So we get to Prog 200 and I start to see why people think that might mark the Golden Age. While the shorts that run up to 200 are great and one, one of my all time favourites (mnetioned above) Portrait of the Mutant starting in 200 is probably my favourite Strontium Dog story ever. Its wonderful stuff. Dredd continues to be at an absolute peak and Return to Armgeddon just gets better and better. Okay so Meltdown Man continues on its aimless way so its down to a run of one offs which I thought might be better, but is pretty hit and miss. See I thought this was when Alan Moore really started to turn in the Future Shocks, but not quite and the one's not by him have been quite week.

So yeah I can certainly see why some might mark these early 200 issues as the start of the Golden Age, but for me 3 solid golld strips just ain't enough and since Meltdown man ain't working for me we're not there yet. But we're getting close...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 October, 2016, 10:17:15 PM
Return to Armageddon vs. Meltdown Man

Okay so best to set my stall out early... well in case anyone has missed my whittering to this point.

Return to Armageddon > Meltdown Man

in fact

Return to Armageddon >>>>>>>>> Meltdown Man

But what's intriguing me is why? Clearly these things a quite subjective and so I'm not sure why I'm worrying about this. The answer is probably just - I really prefer RtA - why over analysis... thing is we're fanboys over analysisings what we love... well some more than others and I hope I'm not as bad as... well okay I'll not go there, but for some reason this particular fanboy worry is really bugging me.

Why these two cases, well I see so much in common with the two. Both are long rambling epics, often lurching from one thing to the next. Both are written by writers deep in IPC's ranks from the 70s, but not ever reaching the heights of star (I'd suggest). Both are drawn by artists with incredibly strong, distinct, individual styles. Both have action plots but with a thread of humour running underneath. Finally both have a strong following with those that know them. So why do I love one and not the other?

Cos I do... nah I think its more than that. I think the stories feel like they are both of the old skool, a tradition that 2000ad is moving kids comics away from and while they have that I feel one absorbs the DNA of a 2000ad story better. Its darker and while chaotic, it holds itself together far more successfully. MMan feels like its strongly planted in the stories of old. Its villians are slight and pantomine. In RtA the villian is delicous, if straightforward, but also pushed back so other rotters flow up and take there place allowing 'the Dark One' to remain infallible - while Leeshar and his crew in MMan are allowed to fail time and again and thus lose their credibility.

Our heroes are both fun. Nick Stone of MMan is the gruff hardman 2000ad has used well so often, but I'll come back later to why I don't think he works too well. Amtrak in fantastically atypical a lot of the time. For the first section absent (or a baby), for the mid section a melting mess and only in the final act finally a blonde haired, blue eyed (I assume) hero... though even then he spends lots of his time being rescued by his rich and varied supporting task.

As for the stories I think RtA works while MMan fails as its made of a wonderful, diverse selection of short stories craftily weaved together and thus the story, while spralling at all times feels fresh and interesting. It never gets tired. Its always offering something new and compelling and somehow, miraculously coherant. MMan follows one story seemingly endlessly, wobbling from one idea to the next, its long time in the Prog being made to feel like a burden, obliging the creators to cram another idea into the single sized pot.

RtA also feels more 2000ad to me, its genuinely dark at times, different and gripping, the humour is jet back. MMan has clearly been filtered through the 2000ad template but doesn't seem to have been able to shake off its it IPC children's comics origins and the humour is more slapstick and clumsy.

Finally I think my prefence is rooted in the art. Jesus Redondo is a real favourite of mine and he suits the strips tone perfectly. Delievering fantastic panels of grim black lines, scratching out the dark world the story is creating. Yet when he needs to he delivers beauty and clarity. His storytelling and characters acting is perfect. Belardinelli I'm a lot less keen on and while he too is a perfect choice for the strip (almost) there lies the problem. He creates a wonderful world and allows the natural environment within it pulse with chaotic energy. The problem is his central human characters feel two dimensional and the acting stiff and lifeless. Nick Stone, as mentioned above, therefore doesn't work as well as he might and looks gruff, but actually not that hard, whatever we are told about him. I appreciate that many disagree.

So yeah I'm fascinated as to why I have such vastly different opinions about these two peers. I can think of many reason why Return to Armageddon is better than Meltdown Man. In the end though is it just subjective? I do wonder if I look at the art and judge from there? I don't think so, but its possible. I do wonder however if the artists were swapped on the stories would my opinion change also? We'll never know... but its fun to over analysis isn't it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 01 November, 2016, 11:48:02 AM
First of all I am surprised no-one has commented on this - I would have thought there would be a lot of discussion on this. For me they were two of the formative 2000AD stories but as with my views on when the golden age was that is probably because of when I started reading the Prog.

In order to put forward my views I will need to slightly break my own rule as I have only the-read RtA and not MM ( I bought it in the half price sale but haven't got round to it yet).

So anyway...

I always preferred Meltdown Man to RtA. As with Colin I think that the art was a lot to do with that but the other way round.

Redondo's art I felt always had a scrathy feel to it, that I don't like, where as Belardinelli was always nice and clean and he is great and this sort of fantasy setting.

On re-reading RtA I was struck by now little the Destroyer actually appears. That was not what I remembered. I always found him a deeply horrifying villan. That is probably another reason I preferred Meltdown Man as I prefer fantasy (and sci-if) to horror.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 01 November, 2016, 12:07:44 PM
I came to both stories in weird, small chunks in Quality COmics reprints (2000AD Showcase, I think it was called). Meaning I read random epsiodes and not always in order, and certainly not from the beginning. I was hooked by both, but at the time I inherently warmed to Meltdown Man more because it was a LOT easier to follow in any given episode. I found it much easier to understand who each character was and their motivations, while RtA was mega confusing.

When I finally amassed the relevant progs to read both serials through properly, I initially stuck with MM as the better, more asatisfying story, whil RtA just had an annoying cop-out ending. On later re-reads, though, I'm all over RtA, mostly for the reasons Colin suggests. It's just more classically 2000AD, full of weird ideas, twists and truns, and a host of characters with more layers than just good and evil (although the animals with stereotypical traits is well done by Hebden in MM). I've even grown to like the ending, which works better the more I read it, what with the theme of the endless cycle of birth, death and the whole Universe.

MM, meanwhile, becomes just a bit too long. I actually enjoy it more just reading random episodes rather than slogging through the whole thing. Dare I say it, it's a wee bit childish. The art on both is superb, and there's some great dialogue in both, too, so I wouldn't write MM off. Pretty sure I'd have loved it had I read it as it came out, it's certianly one of those series where you invest in the characters and just want to see the story through, even though you know it can only really have one ending. The mid-story reveal is a blinder, I'll give it that, too.

Just recently I had hoped that Brink would be a series that dared to follow the model of just going on and on forever, with a long unfolding plot but I guess that's not how it works these days, and instead we'll get 2-3 books over a few years. Honestly, these 21st century artists and their need for a reasonable work/life balance.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 01 November, 2016, 12:28:53 PM
One of these days I'll finally re-read these stories and I remain curious which will work better. What I do remember is that missing the absolute start of MM, and intricate art of Belardinelli made it slightly incomprehensible. While RTA possibly had a richer plot, so week on week needed more attention paid. RTA wins, but To Be Confirmed.

At the time, Dredd, Alpha and even Mean Arena felt like the heart of the prog. As we know, a re-read now could change all that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 01 November, 2016, 01:34:44 PM
I always loved Meltdown Man, from when I had the odd prog with an episode her and there to when I had the complete run and could read it in one sitting, which I've done a few times.  In fact, I found my copies of 2000AD Extreme with the Cliff Robinson covers and had to stop myself from reading past the fifth episode, as I had other things to do (like my prog slog which is still in the twenties!)
I've read all of Return to Armageddon in the progs, but not sure I've ever dug out the progs and only read that story - something I had done with Meltdown Man before I had the story collected in reprint form.

What do I like about it?  The artwork is some of Belardinelli's best; the concept of eugenically modified lifeforms based on animals being oppressed; names like 'Caleb the Camelman'; the human buildings; the yujee buildings that reveal (plus the clue given to readers a few progs earlier).

Not enough maps in stories these days - not even in Judge Dredd, which used to be the most likely to feature a map!

I'll reserve judgement on Armageddon until I've re-read the story - love Redondo's artwork, though not to the extent I do Belardinelli's - sorry, Jesus!*  I'm not religious but like use of Genesis and Revelations imagery** as plot-fodder as much as the next person.

*great to see he's still working in British and American comics - prefer his black and white stuff though, even now.

**other books do exist, but page for page, G&R get the highest STN ratio :)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 November, 2016, 09:15:49 PM
 Just read the conclusion of RtA and its MUCH more satisfying than I remember. Okay the its all a game played by little children is all a bit Star Trek cliche but somehow The Dark Evilly One's final fate is very satisfying. Amtrak's heroic find battle seems utterly fitting and his sense of futlity at the end even more so. Its all really rather good and to be honest RtA really is an unheralded classic. I mean its well regarded but its not normally regarded as being up there.

In other news Colin Wilson really is in my top 5 Dredd artists. His work is stunning.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Grant Goggans on 05 November, 2016, 07:23:12 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 October, 2016, 09:23:52 PM
Now in 1980 I'm pretty sure the 30p difference in price between the Dredd and the 2000ad annual would have bought you a decent family car, but it, even to my 8 year old mind, would surely have been worth it for the Mike McMahon art over those 30 pages.

I just wanted to say that I bought the complete Sweeney on DVD earlier this year and a few episodes have some scenes at dodgy used car dealers.  I'm fascinated by the prices of cars in the 1970s.  Colin's statement may read like hyperbole, but it's actually true.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 November, 2016, 08:29:58 AM
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 05 November, 2016, 07:23:12 AM
I just wanted to say that I bought the complete Sweeney on DVD earlier this year and a few episodes have some scenes at dodgy used car dealers.  I'm fascinated by the prices of cars in the 1970s.  Colin's statement may read like hyperbole, but it's actually true.

Now Mr Goggans could you please stop suggesting I talk sense, we know that way leds to maddess!

Anyway I reach Prog 222 and a very significent Prog as it sees the start of Nemesis the Warlock. Looking back almost 40 years its hard to get a proper perspective on quite how astonishing this must have been. I was there, its lodged in my mind but I'm not going to pretend my memories of the impact of this story haven't been filter through the 36 years its influenced. Beyond the astonishing visiuals, glorious, sharp and ugly in all the right places, its so dark. 2000ad is of course dark, we've just finished Return to Armageddon, but surely Nemesis takes it to a whole new level? Its the perfect summation of the way 2000ad has been developing, so very anti-authoritarian, so darkly funny, so densely packed yet easy to read, so superbly realised and yes so thrilling in just the 4 pages we have a very clear vision of why The Galaxy's Greatest has survived so long while so many others - an entire industry - as fallen away. Just wonderful.

It does all this with the confidence that the comic as a whole shows at this point. Its achieves all with ownly the bariest mention the two main characters so loved from the stories short (in terms of pages) development.

Even comparing it to the rest of the Prog, a great Tharg story full of dark comedy, a neat, beautiful Future Shock, a Dredd ending a great run of stories with an admitedly slightly lousey ending and the comparitively childish Mean Arena and Meltdown Man - though again both at least having something of the comics potential in the art - good though some of this stuff is none of it can stand close to Mills and O'Neill's masterpiece. Yes even the Wagner and Grant Dredd seems to take a dip as if to add special emphasis on this!

For this reason, while the start of Nemesis marks a line in the sand, clearly shows what the previous 221 progs have been building towards, surely what surrounds it and how much it stands out demonstrate that we're not quite there yet, we're not quite golden? But we can see very clearly where we're going.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 06 November, 2016, 12:03:48 PM
Yes I have been waiting for you to reach this point. Prog 222, the first episode of Nemesis proper.

Surely the single greatest opening episode of any 2000AD story. Ever.*

37 years on, it is still awesome.

I can't imagine it ever being bettered.

* except when you reach the mid 300s I might have to qualify this a bit. It's a bit like my favourite band - it depends on who I am listening to at the time.

BTW I have started my Meltdown Man re-read. 5 episodes in and I am enjoying it immensely - some overly clunky explanatory dialogue notwithstanding. But so far I still maintain MM >> RtA & MB >>>>JR.  :lol:
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 November, 2016, 12:19:37 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 06 November, 2016, 12:03:48 PM

Surely the single greatest opening episode of any 2000AD story...

It's bold, it's brash but that statement might just be right. I'll try to bare it in mind as the reread continues. Off the top of my head I can't think of a challenger.

Might even forgive the herasary for as Torque himself said

Be Pure
BE VIGIANT
Be a bigger fan of JR than MB
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 November, 2016, 08:20:59 PM
Okay so Prog 224 then...

Well Wagner and Grant weren't going to be held in check for long were they. 224 sees them and Dredd back on truly scintillating form as Brian Bolland produced some eye meltingly detailed art as 'Judge Death Lives!'. Add to that Strontium Dog returning and while its no  Portrait of a Mutant, The Gronk Affair is fun and I've always had haunted memories of the glutonous villians swallowing the cooked gronk. Nemesis of course continues to be devine and add to that a lovely Future Shock and we're there aren't we?

Okay Meltdown Man thrashes towards its increasingly chaotic conclusion, but even that serves as a reminder of the simpler time's that 2000ad came from and how twisted that's become.

So yeah maybe I'd go for this as the single issue to signify the age we're entering. Even the Nerve Centre is on the inside cover where I always expect to find it and hadn't been for quite some time.

What's left now of course is to see how golden I think this age is. Something I have lingering doubts about.

Oh and in other news since last Prog (223) the Prog has doubled in price in its 4 years history to this point. Gosh you forget how hard these times were. Mind Raiders featured in 224, Time Bandit adverts running in the Prog alongside Clash of the Titan cartoon trialers (used to love those things) I reckon my 9 year old brain was too distracted by these economic challenges! Thank heavens my parents could find the 16p.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 06 November, 2016, 08:54:57 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 06 November, 2016, 08:20:59 PM
Nemesis of course continues to be devine

The Arches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Devine) deviant:


(http://treesureisland.co.uk/acatalog/cw227.gif)(http://ma.cdnmonster.com/files/al/4L4/2u5INay7ZV.jpg)
(https://img.discogs.com/fSWtSloxowPjcEEyJ1pyyWv-C0w=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3814662-1345750490-1544.jpeg.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QN8FCME3L.jpg)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 November, 2016, 08:19:04 PM
Okay two things from Prog 228.

First though I'm no Rogue Trooper fan I was plesently surprised how strong the first episode was. Wonderful art aside which I knew it was full of violent mystery. Really enjoyed it.

Secondly while I know 'Fist of Dredd' is widely regarded as the single greatest panel in the comics history how great is 'I am the nemesis - I am the warlock - I am the shape of things to come.' It's a folly to pretend it's better than 'Fist of Dredd' but it's damned close isn't it... damned, damned close.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 November, 2016, 09:28:23 PM
So by Prog 234 I've realised that the slow and steady build up to the Golden Age has dulled my senses. My Thrillnodes have been slowly bloated to the point of not realising how good the comic has become.

Prog 234 really hammers this home. See its far form the perfect Prog, Nemesis is having its break to allow Kev O'Neill to stun the Galaxy with his frankly unparalleled art. Strontium Dog has left us for the time being, while Mean Arena has found an entirely unsuitable artist in Eric Bradbury, whose work I normally love, here I just don't get on with it. Rogue's back and its already getting grating and formulaic. There is of course treasure. A fun Future Shock by one A. Moore, some great Dredd and Ace Trucking is really finding its stride in its third episode.

Its the weaker stuff that reveals quite how good the Prog is though. Rogue Trooper is simple but looks great and at least has some great ideas. Mean Arena is tough, its just a bit drifty and lacks any kind of focus, its characters offering you little. But this poor stuff is no Angel, no Disaster 1990, in earlier Progs, surrounded by weaker great material would I have embraced their weaknesses more? I think so, I think I've read and enjoyed weaker materials than this in earlier issues.

The comics has created a new context for its stories, over the last 50 or so issues the Galaxies Greatest has proved its no mere  inflated claim and so reading it is changing as well. Even in this condensed reading I'm being pulled up as a reader, without realising and my expectations are changing and the standards I'm judging things by changing... I probably should have saved this for my end of year summary, but I think this incredible shift worth mentioning now as its taken the weakest issue for a while to make the quality so clear.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 November, 2016, 08:11:27 PM
2000ad 1981

So if 1980 saw the Prog find its balance, if it didn't quite find it heights 1981 put that to bed. If 1980 saw the Galaxies Greatest become far more consistant than it had been in past - well since its opening line-up anyway -  it was was consistant where as 1981 has had the solid baseline AND had some quite astonishing peaks.

So yeah in 1981 2000ad truly becomes the Galaxies Greatest Comic.

Its a commonly held belief and almost a cliche amongst fans but I must admit I was a little surprised quite how taken I've been. I mean I knew the highs were there I mean 1981 had the very best strips (beyond Dredd) the comics every had. Consider.

Return to Armageddon
Portrait of a Mutant
Ace Trucking's fantastic start (and I emphasize start there I suspect I might be back to this point next 'year'
Nemesis the chuffin' mind blowing Warlock
Perfect Dredd

So yeah the the highs are clear and obvious. The thing that's made this year more special is the lows are so much better than I expected. They are still lows but they all say so much about where the Prog has risen to. Meltdown Man was doing my head in by the end but it was wonderfully chaotic and had much to enjoy, Mean Arena is a weak thrill but again its classicly 2000ad for that. Nicely grim and dirty, if not always executed too well. Rogue Trooper, a strip I really don't enjoy that much actually gets off to a much better start than I remember. There are some episodes, particularly the first, that I actively liked. The strip is already creaking a bit and the blandness of Rogue himself shines through from the off. Still though it almost always looks stunning and the world of Nu Earth is delightfully crazy and thrilling.

So yeah the comic comes of golden age. The question is now can 1982 sustain it?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 November, 2016, 10:10:11 PM
1982 Annuals

Well 2000ad is getting better and the Dredd one ain't as good as the 1981 one but its still pretty stella... not much else to say is there really!

Okay a little. The 1982 2000ad annual is at least making an effort and has some pretty nice strips. A great Steve Parkhouse Future Shock, a brill Bolland Dredd and more besides. Its still got a lot a filler. It was BRILLIANT filler in the day. I was so excited about having the early Flesh and MACH 1 again when I first has this as a kid and our original Progs had gone. Now though its filler. So the 2000ad annual is beginning to realise that quality can pay but its still not in the league of the Dredd annual.

As for the Dredd annual there is once again three magnificent McMahon stories (lower page count alas) and they are stunning. The rest though, while not bad, ain't as good as the simply glorious stuff in the king of annuals the year before. Still its a bit wonderful.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 November, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
There was always this odd disconnect with the annuals after the Dredd ones were introduced... the 2000AD ones were 128 (?) pages and felt padded, whilst the Dredd ones at 96 (?) felt lean and focussed. Having three full colour Dredds by the same artist really tied those Dredd annuals together, obviously helped by the fact that the contributions by McMahon, then Ezquerra, were quite brilliant.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 December, 2016, 09:22:16 PM
Well early steps into 1982 and I'm plesently surprised. Oh sure some things are as you'd expect. Dredd is quite superb as the Apocolypse War hits the invasion of Mega City 1, things have been quite supremely grim for Dredd and co. Nemesis Book 2 still remains an undervalued gem of a story. Mean Arena is still a bit (lot) rubbish).A little surprise with ACE Trucking as it remains immense fun and I'm enjoying it more than I remember. Always had fond memories of the series, but remember on my last read finding it disappointing at times.

The big surprise is I'm not hating Rogue Trooper though. Its relatively early days on the strip and it does have considerable problems. Any story doesn't really survive any close examination. Rogue is still a rubbish, flat led BUT last time the read the series I found it an absolute chore and skip vast chunks, before skipping it all together. This time I find I'm better able to ignore its problems and enjoy it for what it is, while gloring in its visuals.

I think the main reason is my current re-read is being done Prog to Prog, rather than story to story and the break in reading a poor story to read the rest of a Prog rather than slogging through helps diminish the impact of problems. In the past when I've read one strip in one go, issues are magnified as they build over episode to episode. Read 'properly' the opposite seems to happen and my concerns are diluted.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 05 December, 2016, 12:21:14 PM
I remember the really early Rogue Troper stories as being genuinely poignant in their treatment of the horrors of war; more horrifynig because we never really know what either side is fighting for, if anything, although we do know that Nu-Earth is just one battleground - not even teh home planet of most of the soldiers. Later, longer storylines get more caught up in action narratives but for me this basic facet of the strip managed to hold all the way through until Re-Gene, by which point it really was all about rogue himself, who, as you say, is a little flat.

They never did explain how Rogue is so well-adjusted, despite being, in a way, about 5 years old and with no experience of life outside a military training camp or a war world. Gibbons 'War Machine' did attempt to look at this; Fleisher's Friday series did not.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 December, 2016, 08:59:51 PM
A couple of snappy questions.

Firstly why the hell isn't Nemesis Book 2 hailed as the classic it is? Sure it doesn't have Kev O'Neill art but damnit Jesus Redondo is as good a replacement as you could hope for  and double damnit its a bloody fantastic story.

Secondly, how many times does Joe Black appear? I don't really remember the character, which would seem odd given I must have read these stories numerous times  by now... well okay not so odd given they are pretty flat BUT bloomin' heck he's on his fourth or fifth story, all with great John Higgins art, you'd have thought he'd have made more of an impression?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 09 December, 2016, 10:19:20 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 December, 2016, 08:59:51 PM
Firstly why the hell isn't Nemesis Book 2 hailed as the classic it is? Sure it doesn't have Kev O'Neill art but damnit Jesus Redondo is as good a replacement as you could hope for  and double damnit its a bloody fantastic story.

I'm with you on this. I thought Redondo's rendition of all the major characters was fantastic (Purity... oh, those cheekbones!) and the story was smart and affecting. Redondo also draws great giant spiders and Steve Potter's lettering manages to be innovative whilst still being clean and legible.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 10 December, 2016, 08:50:56 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 09 December, 2016, 10:19:20 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 December, 2016, 08:59:51 PM
Firstly why the hell isn't Nemesis Book 2 hailed as the classic it is? Sure it doesn't have Kev O'Neill art but damnit Jesus Redondo is as good a replacement as you could hope for  and double damnit its a bloody fantastic story.

I'm with you on this. I thought Redondo's rendition of all the major characters was fantastic (Purity... oh, those cheekbones!) and the story was smart and affecting. Redondo also draws great giant spiders and Steve Potter's lettering manages to be innovative whilst still being clean and legible.
I loved Redondo's depiction of Novala as well (the would-be human colony planet which had become overgrown and first featured in Olric's Great Quest).  Not to mention Sister Alvit and the Vestal Vampires playing charades :-)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 10 December, 2016, 09:44:47 AM
For me it is all relative. Book 2 is merely a solid adventure story, whereas book 1 was a true wow moment. Book 3 was a continuation of book 1 really. Books 3,4, 5 and 6 took it into a whole other gothic nightmare direction. After that I'm not so sure.

Book 2 feels like a inessential detour on the route from Book 1 to Book 3.

So nothing wrong with book 2, it just suffers in comparison, in my opinion, when matched against stuff which is some of the very best 2000AD has ever published.

Redondo and Talbot always drew a better Torquemada for me than O'Neill, managing to get expressions out of his helmet in a way that O'Neill never did. But the look of Nemesis, Termight, the Terminators and the Aliens created by O'Neill, well there were just amazing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 December, 2016, 08:59:00 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 10 December, 2016, 09:44:47 AM
Redondo and Talbot always drew a better Torquemada for me than O'Neill, managing to get expressions out of his helmet in a way that O'Neill never did. But the look of Nemesis, Termight, the Terminators and the Aliens created by O'Neill, well there were just amazing.

Ha - that's interesting cos one of the many reasons I really like O'Neill's Nemesis is the cold emotionless face that he gives The Warlock more often than not. It makes him feel unreadable and adds to his intrigue. I love much about the work Redondo and Talbot add to the series but this specific is one of their weaker elements for me!

Anyway to other matters, read 259 and aside from the shock that I'm already 5 years into my re-read (based on issue numbers as the comc is at this time) its really interesting that this issue starts with two comedy strips, Robo-Hunter, followed by ACE Trucking. Both not bad one off epsisodes, but their placing felt really off, especially when you are thrown straight from them into the gloriously grim Apocalypse War. Its not the best Prog as its an early example of a fuller issue before a 'Jumping On Prog' but this is slightly exaggerated by this curious strip placement. Goes to show, just like the tracks on an album, the order of strips in the comics can play into how good a piece of work it is regardless of the individual elements that make it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 December, 2016, 09:19:36 PM
Couple more quick points of note:

Prog 261 - Greatest cliffhanger EVER right. I remember how long it felt between Progs very specifically due to this one. A week of my 10 year old mind trying to thing... how, how, HOW does Dredd survivie that one!

Hpw great is the run of Brit Cit Robo-Hunter, having read The Beast of Blackheart Manor and start of Filby Case its clear that the strip works better in short doses (see start of Day of the Driods)

A story I'd completely forgotten 'Alec Trench - Zombie' 263 + 4, I think see Ron Smith being Jack Kirby'd, Jack famously has this drawing of Superman's face replaced when drawing Jimmy Olsen. Does the same happen to Ron Smith's Tharg here. All the images of Tharg in the intros and end panels just don't fit and I reckon they are Robin Smith's (Art Editor at the time). I wonder what was wrong with Ron's Tharg?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 11 December, 2016, 11:31:38 PM
Ooo, I wonder is this potential sleight the secret origin of the 'Rob Smith' nose Ron draws in Citizen Snork?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 December, 2016, 09:41:09 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 December, 2016, 11:31:38 PM
Ooo, I wonder is this potential sleight the secret origin of the 'Rob Smith' nose Ron draws in Citizen Snork?

Well bless uou for wading through my unreadable nonsense BUT heavens to Betsy my inability to type coherantly annoys me at times.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 December, 2016, 09:19:36 PM
A story I'd completely forgotten 'Alec Trench - Zombie' 263 + 4, I think I CAN see Ron Smith being Jack Kirby'd, Jack famously has HAD this HIS drawingS of Superman's face replaced when drawing the comic Jimmy Olsen. Does the same THING happen to Ron Smith's Tharg here. ? All the images of Tharg in the intros and end panels just don't fit and I reckon they are Robin Smith's (Art Editor at the time). I wonder what was wrong with Ron's Tharg?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 December, 2016, 09:42:07 PM
Fuckin' hell - bless YOU - 3/10 Taylor please re-read what you scribble!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 15 December, 2016, 11:24:12 AM
Those early Robo Hunter in Brit Cit stories are some of my favourite ever comics ever. Shame it lost its way with the longer runs. I have read these Progs on a re-read once in the past, but really my exposure to a lot of this golden age stuff - Ace Trucking, Robo Hunter, Nemesis, various Future Shocks - was all through the Best of 2000AD Monthly. So I never had a problem with the pacing / story sequence you've observed. I do remember the interminable wait between episodes of Necropolis, when I first became a weekly-Prog devourer. I can image your Apocalypse cliffhanger agony!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2016, 09:07:30 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 15 December, 2016, 11:24:12 AM
Those early Robo Hunter in Brit Cit stories are some of my favourite ever comics ever.

Have to say you're not wrong. Just finished 'The Filby Case' and its probably my favourite Robo-hunter story to date (I suspected it would be going in) and it really is glorious comics. Quite a superb, well timed, supremely executed short. Devine.

If it wasn't for Mean Arena's seemingly endless run, I always remember it being a chore after the first few stories, but by gosh i didn't remember it going on quite as relentlessly as this and Rogue Trooper starting to show its true colours in 'All Hell on the Dix-I Front' (mind still not as bad as I remember it fair to say) the Prog would be knocking it out the park. With ACE Trucking and Dredd Wagner and Grant are on fine comic form. The others, while weak, at least give balance in tone and there's alwasy a nice future shock or two to give the comic balance.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 January, 2017, 09:14:07 PM
So the X-mas holidays slowed me up some but I'm getting to the end if 1982... or was it Mean Arena that was slowing me. I mean it went on FOREVER, for-bloody-ever. By the end it was just hideous... but its over... at last.

One problem out the way but next I land full into the racist sterotypes in 'Football Crazy' and the terrible thing is I don't mind them. Sam Slade has been absolutely fantastic, this run of stories has been even better this time around, and yes the representation of the Japanese in the latest story is pretty shocking... by todays standards. I'm not going to excuse them by suggesting its okay cos the parody is savage on all fronts. That really doesn't work as the way the Japanese characters are presented is based on pretty pathetic racial slurs. The thing is however I'm completely unaffected by that as I've read them some many times during a time when we didn't care and to that end I'm immune to it all. In the same way I am to Mammy Two Shoes in Tom and Jerry. They have become wallpaper. The same thing done now I'd be appalled (that Strontium Dog story recently got very close to the bone) but here they wash over me.

I'm not sure what that says about me but there you go.

The 1982 Special ain't too good either.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 January, 2017, 04:00:59 PM
All the talk of Strontium Dog elsewhere has reminded me of something I meant to say a while back and ever since BUT the strip always surprises me with its lack of regularity. I always think of it as such a mainstay that I'm always surprised when it is disappears for so long, so often. Clearly Carlos was very busy in 1982 with Dredd and that explains its absense... doesn't stop it surprising me...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 10 January, 2017, 10:39:50 AM
Ezquerra, Belardinelli and Gibson were just staggeringly prodigious during this time. Between the three of them it's as if they were juggling strips and very rarely missing a week. I think all of them had something in either 2000AD, Starlord or Tornado practically every issue from the beginning til around Prog 500. Mental. Makes me wonder if they really were droids, it's an inhuman combination of craft and work ethic!

(You won't see any more Stront for a while, but when it comes back, you'll see it nearly every week for years to come!)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 January, 2017, 09:26:39 PM
2000ad 1982

So the byword for 1982 is consistency. Bloody hell the Prog has been consistant. For the vast majority of the year the Prog has consisted of just 6 thrills being:

Dredd (of course)
Rogue Trooper
Mean Arena
Robo Hunter
Ace Trucking
Future Shocks (or associated shorts that might not have exactly been Future Shocks but fall into that wheel house)

At the start we has a glorious Nemesis story and by the end Harry 20 on High Rock has joined in, but that aside that's pretty much it. That's pretty incredible when you think about it, certainly compared to say the last ten years, when we've had many stories that feel like they've had many one 10-12 part story per year. Even things like Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante the last stories that spring to mind, with anything like that sort of regularly are either gone or on a go slow.

So yeah its interesting and makes the decision on whether you think 1982 has been a golden year pretty straight forward, do you like those strips? Well do you?

For me is been okay, not Golden. See Dredd has been superb, Robo-Hunter has been glorious (until... we'll get to that), Future Shocks have been by and large fun and provide at least some variation, ACE Trucking is not up there but consistently fun and entertaining. I've found Rogue Trooper more tolerable than I have before... tolerable being the word though (until... we'll get to that) and Mean Arena was a bloody chore, an endless chore at that.

So on paper not too bad you'd think, I mean this reading of Rogue still exposes the strips real, deep weaknesses but its looked great and I've almost enjoyed it at times. So one middling at best and one poor strip aside its been pretty good right... well no see its missed one of the Galaxy's Greatest's key strengths the variety. Its lacked that quick step, that bounce. The bad strips are better, or more engaging when they don't hang around, the good strip more thrilling when they leave you gasping for their return, its all so much fresher.

By the end of 1982 this is really showing. ACE has been pushed aside and probably just it time, it was begining to lose it lustre, Rogue Trooper is becoming the almost unreadable mess I remember with Neuropia following on from the weak Dix-i or whatever they were all called. Even the glorious Robo-Hunter is singing its way to a bit of a low. Mean Arena finally crawled away and dies in a corner... so yeah 1982 had a real consistancy, which I have called for in the past (the past of the current reflection on the past if you follow) but maybe I didn't mean quite like this.

Still the changes are clearly coming and to be honest I'm more than ready for them... as I recall they're going to be pretty bloody exciting too... can't wait for 1983.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 14 January, 2017, 02:17:20 PM
Well 1982 was the year of the Apocalypse War. When you have a Dredd story like that everything else is going to seem somewhat pedestrian afterwards.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 January, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
Annuals 1983

So the convergence in quality continues. The 2000ad annual is continuing to improve, helped greatly by a couple of fine Alan Moore stories, Bo-Busters with Bryan Talbot and an interesting Rogue Trooper with Brett Ewins, a pleasent Strontium Dog and some other okay bits and bobs. Okay there is STILL a lot of filler, but the 2000ad Annual continues to improve.

The Dredd annual is still comfortably ahead, but that gap is closing. Swap Carlos for Mike McMahon as the artist on three Dredd's and you'd think they'd be little drop in quality. Trouble is the stories aren't as strong, I'd forgotten all about the proto Helter Skelter in here, which is pretty surprising. The rest of the book is dropping in quality too. There's more filler and the text and 'back up ' stories are quite as good.

Really intrigued to see if the 2000ad ever catch the Dredds... I just can't remember... we'll see 'next year'

Happy 1983 fellow boarders, I'll see you in the New Year.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 January, 2017, 09:12:48 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 January, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
Annuals 1983

...The 2000ad annual is continuing to improve, helped greatly by a couple of fine Alan Moore stories, Bo-Busters with Bryan Talbot and an interesting Rogue Trooper with Brett Ewins, a pleasent Strontium Dog and some other okay bits and bobs. Okay there is STILL a lot of filler, but the 2000ad Annual continues to improve.

Well my perennial dumb assedness meant I forgot to mention the glorious origin of Blitzspear... dumbass its bloody fantastic!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 January, 2017, 09:05:11 PM
Well 1983 starts pretty slowly. Dredd shines, but Robo-hunter sings itself into a bit of a corner with a sluggish and stumbling story. There's nothing sluggish about Harry 20 which loves great but really is a bit of a farce. Rogue Trooper is currently terrible and I'm burly reading it... the Future Shocks have even lost some sheen...

...things will pick up I know.

The one thing that stands out to me is Abelard Snazz gets another showing. Its not that its particularly good, in fact its fairly pedestrian, its just that I'd forgotten quite how much he showed up.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 January, 2017, 09:32:32 PM
So Prog 308 is just what 1983 needed. The year has taken until mid March to kick into gear BUT this Prog sure shows signs of what's to come (as I recall). Last Prog we shed Harry 20 on High Rock a series I can't excuse GFD for, regardless of Alan Davis' developing art. Sam Slade stopped all the silly singing nonsense, which had really been a shame after a run of quite superb stories... okay so Rogue Trooper is still trudging through Neuro a new low for the series, but even there this Prog builds hope, after all its part 17, this has GOT to be over soon... right.... surely...

Anyway elsewhere things are fine... well okay we have a particularly weak Dredd in 'The Prankster' a story that I have to say had completely slipped my oh so slippy memory. Nice mind... anyway a weak Dredd is hardly anything to worry about is it. You can be pretty sure the that next Prog things will be back up to top, top form...

Okay so the next up we have a fun but not astonishing Tharg story... well Thrillsuckers, fun nowt more...

...so yeah so far it doesn't really sound like 308 is much to herald... but then you get to one A. Moore. By george he earns his chops this prog. In The Reversible Man we have a Time Twister that sets the standard by which his Future Shocks are remembered by. Up to now many have been good, very good. But not as astonishing as their reputation if you ask me. They've tended to be good fun.  The Reversible Man is a really wonderful, powerful story though and really raises the bar.

The fantastic thing is though Mr A Moore has already leapt over that bar in this very Prog. In the opening episode of Skizz Mr A Moore has already reminded me why this is probably my favourite Mr A Moore story (more to come as I read on of course). But fuckin' hell this is a way to introduce a strip. Quite brilliant. In an episode he crafts humour, excitment, AND an entire world I want to know more about, drawn wide with some simple dialogue between alien and ships computer. While doing that Mr A Moore makes me care about said alien and exciting predicament his crashing on Earth casts him into. Being crashed on Earth is the least of his immediate problems however and that makes the episode a little micro-story full of tension. Mind Mr A Moore ALSO manages to make it quite clear why being crashed on Earth is going to be such a problem for a creature from a hi-tech race and interstellar technology. He deftly sets the creature adrift and helpless. In 6 chuffing pages.

And that my friends is why Prog 308 sends the Prog back into oribit. Well done Mr A Moore.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 25 January, 2017, 10:22:58 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 25 January, 2017, 09:32:32 PM
we have a particularly weak Dredd in 'The Prankster' a story that I have to say had completely slipped my oh so slippy memory

You might have been reminded of The Prankster (http://i.imgur.com/DkjBFtm.png) (308) when you read Ladykiller (http://i.imgur.com/eWeqtGg.png) (1995) - note the two robot butlers. The detail of staging an event on a significant date to entrap the perp recalls Maybe's penultimate outing, Serial Serial (http://i.imgur.com/03ULzNN.png) (1953).

Also, Moore and White's Reversible Man predates Martin Amis's Booker prize-nominated Time's Arrow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time's_Arrow_(novel)) by some 8 years. Borag Thungg, Earthlet Amis!


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: JOE SOAP on 25 January, 2017, 10:33:49 PM
Quote from: Frank on 25 January, 2017, 10:22:58 PMAlso, Moore and White's Reversible Man predates Martin Amis's Booker prize-nominated Time's Arrow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time's_Arrow_(novel)) by some 8 years.


And Philip K. Dick's Counter-Clock World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Clock_World) goes all the way back to 1967.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 28 January, 2017, 11:21:09 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 25 January, 2017, 10:33:49 PM
Quote from: Frank on 25 January, 2017, 10:22:58 PMAlso, Moore and White's Reversible Man predates Martin Amis's Booker prize-nominated Time's Arrow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time's_Arrow_(novel)) by some 8 years.

And Philip K. Dick's Counter-Clock World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Clock_World) goes all the way back to 1967.

If I write something in a decade's time, does that mean I'll have got there first?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 28 January, 2017, 11:22:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 January, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
So the convergence in quality continues. The 2000ad annual is continuing to improve, helped greatly by a couple of fine Alan Moore stories, Bo-Busters with Bryan Talbot and an interesting Rogue Trooper with Brett Ewins, a pleasent Strontium Dog and some other okay bits and bobs. Okay there is STILL a lot of filler, but the 2000ad Annual continues to improve.

Was that the rogue story with the Waldos?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 February, 2017, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 28 January, 2017, 11:22:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 January, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
So the convergence in quality continues. The 2000ad annual is continuing to improve, helped greatly by a couple of fine Alan Moore stories, Bo-Busters with Bryan Talbot and an interesting Rogue Trooper with Brett Ewins, a pleasent Strontium Dog and some other okay bits and bobs. Okay there is STILL a lot of filler, but the 2000ad Annual continues to improve.

Was that the rogue story with the Waldos?

That's the fella.

Anyway a quick note to say I love the Dredd 'classic'* Starborn Thing (Progs 309 - 314) great story but such a weak end.Such a shame.

Elsewhere Robohunter new 'epic' start well, but they always do and as Sam floats out his body I wonder if we're on the downward already? Rogue gets out of Nu...whatever it was I've forgotten it already but remains pretty damned poor with Major Magnum. Some good Future Twister buoy thing and Skizz... well Skizz is just perfect.

*It is considered a classic isn't it?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 February, 2017, 07:53:41 PM
So the Prog has been on a bit of a downer lately. After a poor end to Starborn thing even Dredd has a mini dip (these things are all relative of course), with 'King of the Road', 'Condo' both being pretty forgettable and Stupid Gun not living up to my memories of the story. Rogue Trooper... well I'll not go over that ground again and the Future Timey Shoisters have been a little up and down. Skizz is the one consistent highlight being absolutely perfect. But things look up in Prog 324. Dredd has Cry of the Werewolf which is just the classic its regardles as and Robohunter has been true to form the longer form stories in starting well then going down hill. In this case very quickly and very badly as Sam's soul swans around BUT tie him in a chair on the side of a road in the body of his clone (no really, don't ask) and you have a simply fantastic episode. Quite superb and up to the standard of the strip at its best (which was the shorter stories in the 200s).

So yeah not sure how long this will last but its amazing the difference a solid Sammy makes.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 February, 2017, 07:59:10 PM
Well that and an astonishingly good, frighteningly good Time Twister.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 09 February, 2017, 08:02:32 PM
Hhhmmm, maybe you can help me Colin seeing as you're in the mists of your reread right now. Can you recall a one page Future Shock where [spoiler]A UFO lands in front of an Average Joe, only for the alien to be a hideously mutated human from the future[/spoiler]? I don't think it was a Moore FS...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 February, 2017, 08:42:10 PM
Sorry no springing to my mind. But then my mind ain't the best!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 09 February, 2017, 08:49:03 PM
Bugger, it's really annoying me because I could swear I read it in a Meg reprint but which one has so far escaped me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 09 February, 2017, 10:25:01 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 09 February, 2017, 08:02:32 PM
Hhhmmm, maybe you can help me Colin seeing as you're in the mists of your reread right now. Can you recall a one page Future Shock where [spoiler]A UFO lands in front of an Average Joe, only for the alien to be a hideously mutated human from the future[/spoiler]? I don't think it was a Moore FS...

[spoiler]Evolved[/spoiler], not [spoiler]mutated[/spoiler].  Artwork by John Higgins, I think - and I'm pretty sure it was two or three pages long.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 February, 2017, 08:49:43 PM
Prog 330

Endings and beginnings huh, endings and beginnings.

Skizz has an ending that I always felt let the story down a little. Its so built into the story, its there right from the start. Its worked well and done with some flare, but I always wanted this story I like so much to have bolder ending.

Slaine starts and its a beginning I've never been overly fond of and I'm not sure why... well actually I think I do, but it shouldn't be the reason. I struggle to get on with the art, its feels adrift from what I know and expect of the series. It also jars with the grim bitter world that the story holds. Its wonderful, crafted, precise art and it doesn't work for the series.

There I've said it now I'll duck for cover.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 19 February, 2017, 10:18:21 PM
So I have agreed with you in two post today (Prog and Meg reviews)...but this....no sorry....not for me.

I love Angie Kincaid / Mills' art on this.

Also given that it is the first episode it doesn't seem quite right to me to say one doesn't like it because it doesn't fit with what comes later. And you know what, it had never occurred to me that was the case; as I am sure you know there has been a huge variation in art styles on Slaine over the years.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 20 February, 2017, 10:39:50 AM
I'm with Magnetica on this one.  All three early Slaine artists are perfect at what they do. Angie Kincaid's rather stiff Gal-homage does the heavy lifting of establishing Slaine's world: it's a masterclass in creating a unique visual identity that parallels the genius of the first script, together setting out almost all the elements that have sustained the strip for 30 years.  Bellardinelli gives the strip its authentic European Celtic trappings, panels that look like the contents of a natural history museum and a La Tene archaeology exhibit have collided in the garden of Eden. Then McMahon arrives to render everything in kinetic sinew and bark scratchings, somehow continually suggesting that it was actually drawn by an eye-witness. It's just a perfect mix, and not one of those first three artists so much as tug a single forelock in the direction of mainstream fantasy art.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 20 February, 2017, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 February, 2017, 10:39:50 AM
I'm with Magnetica on this one.  All three early Slaine artists are perfect at what they do.

I think it's also worth noting the Frame droid's eschewing of the standard, rounded balloon in favour of those straight lines, which instantly set the strip apart visually from everything else in the prog.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 20 February, 2017, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 20 February, 2017, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 February, 2017, 10:39:50 AM
I'm with Magnetica on this one.  All three early Slaine artists are perfect at what they do.

I think it's also worth noting the Frame droid's eschewing of the standard, rounded balloon in favour of those straight lines, which instantly set the strip apart visually from everything else in the prog.

Ouch, never even noticed this! A re-read is mandated!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 20 February, 2017, 11:24:41 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 February, 2017, 11:10:19 AM
Ouch, never even noticed this! A re-read is mandated!

I'm wondering if Tom lettered Mick's early episodes first — ISTR reading that Angie Kincaid's episode took so long to get whipped into shape that a lot of other episodes were already complete before the first one was ready to go. Those rough-hewn, straight-edged balloons really come into their own on the McMahon episodes, so I kind of feel Tom might have settled on the style as a complement to Mick's angular, scratchy art.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 20 February, 2017, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 February, 2017, 08:49:43 PM
Prog 330. Endings and beginnings huh, endings and beginnings.

Skizz has an ending that I always felt let the story down a little. Its so built into the story, its there right from the start. Its worked well and done with some flare, but I always wanted this story I like so much to have bolder ending.

Slaine starts and its a beginning I've never been overly fond of and I'm not sure why... well actually I think I do, but it shouldn't be the reason. I struggle to get on with the art, its feels adrift from what I know and expect of the series. It also jars with the grim bitter world that the story holds. Its wonderful, crafted, precise art and it doesn't work for the series.

There I've said it now I'll duck for cover.
This was my second first Prog, as the shoddy stocking policies of my remote village newsagent led to an enforced gap of around six months before I found a more reliable dealer. Partly because of this, Slaine long held a special place in my heart and was arguably my favourite strip until Zenith arrived. Conversely, Skizz didn't interest me at all until I eventually read the full story in reprint many years later.

Not sure what point I'm trying to make other than sharing some misty-eyed reminiscence. I think it was probably the upcoming Prog 335 which really got me hooked so I'll be interested to see what you make of that one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 20 February, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
I think the point is how absolutely amazing those opening episodes of Slaine were (are?).

For me the greatest ever opening epidodes to any 2000AD series are:

- Nemesis on Prog 222 (if you want to count Prog 167's Comic Rock instead I won't argue) and
- Slaine in Prog 330.

Next up would be Zenith on Prog 535 ( but it will be a while before Colin gets that far.)

And indeed all three had incredible first series to back up those opening episodes.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 20 February, 2017, 12:53:14 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 20 February, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
And indeed all three had incredible first series to back up those opening episodes.

No arguments there. Rogue Trooper (Prog 228?) also has an astonishingly compelling opener - but Slaine and Zenith are the ones to beat (Zenith losing half a point to Slaine because it doesn't get to define the title character - although his irrelevance to larger events may be the point!).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 20 February, 2017, 12:55:34 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 20 February, 2017, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 February, 2017, 08:49:43 PM
Prog 330. Endings and beginnings huh, endings and beginnings.
This was my second first Prog, as the shoddy stocking policies of my remote village newsagent led to an enforced gap of around six months before I found a more reliable dealer. Partly because of this, Slaine long held a special place in my heart and was arguably my favourite strip until Zenith arrived. Conversely, Skizz didn't interest me at all until I eventually read the full story in reprint many years later.

Not sure what point I'm trying to make other than sharing some misty-eyed reminiscence. I think it was probably the upcoming Prog 335 which really got me hooked so I'll be interested to see what you make of that one.


330 was the first prog I ever bought (as I've mentioned in other threads, I was handed about ten, partly-consecutive progs from 308 up to 322 or so).  I must have had similar distribution problems as I had a second run starting in 335, and then finally a third in 350, which I've kept up to this day.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 February, 2017, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 19 February, 2017, 10:18:21 PM
So I have agreed with you in two post today (Prog and Meg reviews)...but this....no sorry....not for me.

I love Angie Kincaid / Mills' art on this.

Also given that it is the first episode it doesn't seem quite right to me to say one doesn't like it because it doesn't fit with what comes later. And you know what, it had never occurred to me that was the case; as I am sure you know there has been a huge variation in art styles on Slaine over the years.

Well at least you know that you've not entirely broken and finding sense in everything I say.

To be honest you are entirely right of course. Its just... well so it goes with the vagaries of art, I know this is a popular episode, and Angie's art is popular with many, but for me it just jars.

You are of course right that over the course of the series its been blessed (and cursed) by many artists and styles, but I have to say those early episodes really set out a stall and while I'm not Belardinelli's biggest fan around here, he and McMahon really set out a template that for me Angie then Mills didn't sit well with.

Not something I can explain or justify, but also something I just have to accept!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 21 February, 2017, 08:40:29 AM
Last night I read the bits about the start of Slaine in Thrill Power Overload. According to that, it took Angie Mills 18 months to do her episode (and art Editor Robin Smith thought it wasn't very good) and in the meantime McMahon had completed his episodes. It was only after that, that Masimo's episodes were commissioned. Apparently Pat didn't want to run the McMahon episodes straight away as that would have defined the look of the character and put McMahon in the readers' mind as the person who did the definitive Slaine. It says that "Pat didn't want that".

(BTW I never really liked Robin Smith's art....so what does he know, eh?   :lol: :lol: :lol: )
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 21 February, 2017, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 February, 2017, 08:16:06 AM
You are of course right that over the course of the series its been blessed (and cursed) by many artists and styles, but I have to say those early episodes really set out a stall and while I'm not Belardinelli's biggest fan around here, he and McMahon really set out a template that for me Angie then Mills didn't sit well with.

I think what's important about the first episode is that it creates a visual identity without really defining a style... Despite Angie's style deliberately following Gal (and very definitely not Frazetta, Windsor Smith, Vallejo, the Hildebrandts or even Pini, the then-definitive sword-and-sorcery fantasy artists), the content itself does not, and so you get a sort of 'neutral' but distinctive image of Slaine and his world.

When we got the heavily styled Bellardinelli and astonishingly different McMahon in short order it didn't really matter because these were obviously versions of Default Slaine... more interesting versions at that. And that's a pattern that has served the strip well... There is no definitive style for Slaine (although Fabry, Bisley and Langley all had tenures that could make that claim), but behind it all there is the bare bones idea of what the elements of Slaine and his world look like.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 21 February, 2017, 01:00:07 PM
I'm always struck by the sequence at the very start of Kincaid-Mills's Slaine that has Slaine and Ukko jumping into a boat full of dung to escape. That sets the tone for years to come of Slaine being a hero, but one who is literally not above getting in the muck with everyone else. The first panel of the skull-swords with their breathing tubes were fantastic, too, kind of like that opening Rogue Trooper episode with its poison gas-clouds everywhere.

Other superlative episode 1s:
Nemesis for sure, either way you count episode 1!
The Visible Man (so good it demanded a series to follow, but it's pretty much limited to one visual gag and maybe a hint of an emotional gag that lasts for about 3 episodes)
Kola Kommandoes (shame about episodes 2-12)
Shimura (mostly for the art)
Canon Fodder
Shakara
Leviathan
Brass Sun
The Order
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 21 February, 2017, 01:41:05 PM
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten Brass Sun!  That was an amazing opener, not a line wasted.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 21 February, 2017, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 February, 2017, 10:00:53 AM
There is no definitive style for Slaine

Definitive versions - well there is a can of worms right there.

Basically there are three categories as far as I can see.

Stories with multiple artists and no one definitive version, examples include: Dredd, Sinister Dexter,Slaine

Stories with a single definitive artist( or with more than one artist but where one artist has so dominated it as to claim definitive status and relegate all others: Strontium Dog, Ace Trucking, Robo Hunter, Kingdom, Brass Sun, Jaegir, Zenith, Halo Jones, Harry 20, DR and Quinch

Stories with Multiple artist but which none the less seem to still have a defined look ( i.e the artists managed to make the look of the characters consistent): Rogue Trooper, Bad Company, the VCs. I would even put ABC Warriors in here, which seems to pull off the remarkable feat of having loads of different artists whilst still leaving me with a single consistent idea of what each character (apart from Col Lash) looks like.

And to buck the trend we Nemesis and Nikolai Dante which despite having had many artists have TWO definitive, equally valid versions.

Anyway I am sure this is all subjective and others will have different views(especially on ABC Warriors - Pat Mills canned it after series 1 due to frustration at lack of a consistent artist ).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 21 February, 2017, 04:24:48 PM
Don't know you can say Nemesis has "TWO" "definitive" artists...
Presumably you mean O'Neill & Talbot, but maybe you don't  :o
It's a minefield.

Could be wrong, but in the Slaine stuff did no-one mention Simon Davis?
He's made it worth reading again, if you ask me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 21 February, 2017, 04:39:01 PM
Yup O'Neill and Talbot.

So much so I have pretty much wiped all other versions from my mind...apologies to Redondo, Hickleton, Roach, Langley, Flint etc.

Strange how you knew who I meant! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 21 February, 2017, 04:53:59 PM
Quote from: Fungus on 21 February, 2017, 04:24:48 PM

Could be wrong, but in the Slaine stuff did no-one mention Simon Davis?
He's made it worth reading again, if you ask me.

Not sure I'd go that far.  Perhaps, made it tolerable?  Granted his art work is the best thing about it and certainly far superior (personal opinion mind) to Mr Langley.  Sorry, for causing offence.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 February, 2017, 08:40:54 PM
Surely Simon Davis is the definitive Sinister Dexter artist...

Anyway to other matters I was thinking I'd be back here when I'd read 335 to see what Cosh had found so interesting. But bloomin' heck this not peaking a head (combined with my shockin' memory) means I'm of course back for that issue, but with not a care in the world for Mr Cosh but just to say CHUFF ME THAT'S WHAT I CALL THRILLPOWER.

Just what the Doctor ordered. With a number of key stories ending, some of them badly losing steam as they did so, sorry Sam but it was turning into latter day Hemingway that meant you needed locking away for a while, the Prog was feeling a little tired for chunks of 83. Then 335 comes along and you remember why it's the Galaxies Greatest.

Okay so ACE Truckung was long gone, Skizz was over, Rob Hunter was missing firing so what does Tharg do? Why simply look in the draw and pull out the long missing Johnny Alpha, slip Nemesis back in, introduce us to McMahon on Slaine and trot out a simply supreme Dredd. Bloody hell. Okay so Rogue won't bugger off but heck at least it looks grand.

So yeah Prog 335 huh... that was turning all the heads not just McCosh's.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 22 February, 2017, 09:13:16 PM
Though I don't check in as much as I like, i'm utterly loving your trip through both nostalgia land and thrill power fashioning. Cracking write ups lad!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 February, 2017, 08:43:51 PM
With so much going on in the Prog late 1983, brilliant Strontium Dog, blistering Nemesis, fresh and earthly Slaine its might be easy to lose sight of how great the Dredd story that runs alongside them but 'Graveyard Shift' was a fantastic tale.

I love the way it seems to be using up slightly lesser ideas that Wagner and Grant had left over, may not have felt they'd hold on their own but by weaving them together with a slight and simple premise it galvanises them to become greater than the sum of its parts. The running navative of the single nights and the events that swarm Mega City One really works and combined with some glorious Ron Smith art, arguably at his peak here, its just a beaut.

Funny isn't it, even with such other stunning thrills in the Prog left over* Wagner and Grant still stands shoulder to shoulder.

*Utter speculation on my part, I have no idea if this is the case at all! But I like to imagine that was the case!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 27 February, 2017, 12:35:51 AM
You're reading 'my' 2000AD now Colin. This was well into my first year of fulltime squaxxdom, and EVERYTHING was great. The was when my long-running D&D campaign slowly morphed into a halfway house between Slaine and Nemesis, where art class was spent marvelling with mates over single panels of O'Neill or Bellardinelli, and into all this came The Graveyard Shift - still my favourite Dredd story, and a complete eye-opener of what that strip (hitherto a bit of an also-ran for me) could be.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 March, 2017, 08:43:31 PM
1983

Pretty simple year to sum up really. Started slowly with a few real highlights (Skizz in particular) but mainly marked by the passing of once great strips loosing ground and Rogue Trooper going from bad to worse. As the year progresses however things are getting better and better.

By Prog 335 (in September of 1983) the Prog has raised to heights, possibly better than its ever been. Sure Rogue is still stinking the place up, even if it looks fine, but everything else is simply brilliant. Slaine starts really well, Strontium Dog as good, or even possibly better than its ever been, Nemesis Book 3 which is just brilliant and Dredd continuing a real peak.

Staggered endings mean that as the year tails out a few weaknesses creep back in. Alan Moore has moved onto longer form stories so there a few weakish Future Shocks hangin' round BUT that hopefully is a harbinger of the burst to come in the new year. We'll see.

Over all Skizz is an absolute highlight, the slow demise of Sam Slade the low point ... though I'm very much looking forward to his return in a couple (or more) years but over all the year just about sneaks into the positive simply cos the last 3 months or so are just so very, very good.

This view is curiously backed up by the review of the year in the last Prog of the year 349. Tharg seems to skip quickly through the first half and has to cram in the highlights of the second half.

He's to a suitable Orwellian (I hope) 1984...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 03 March, 2017, 09:08:47 AM
Yeowch! You really aren't a Rogue fan are ya, Colin?

And yeah, it kind of goes without saying Nemesis BK III is just about a top 5 thrill for me. It's just about the purest essence of Thrill Power, IMHO.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 03 March, 2017, 10:38:16 AM
If you're struggling to get through Rogue in this period, wait til you hit the interminable Horst segment in the 400s! (Amazing art from Jose Ortiz notwithstanding, it's pretty tedious).
On the plus side, this is without question the golden age of the puntastic cover straplines.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 March, 2017, 01:46:00 PM
Yeah I remember when I got into 2000ad again after a break with Prog 431 I was wondering what the hell was going on with Rogue (and Slaine come to that!) which was bang in the middle if the Horst stuff. Then I was too young and ignorant to appreciate Ortiz's fantastic art... mind he wasn't a barbarian running around with lasers which while much better was equally messed up!

ANYWAY no more skipping ahead 2 years, how can I know about that stuff, the Traitor General is still around. The 2000ad Sci-Fi special of 1983 reminds us of an important lesson, one which isn't really 2000ad related but one which I will relate here anyway. That being that John Byrne's greatest Hubris has always been his love of inking his own work. John stop it will ya. Now don't get me wrong I have nothing against John Byrne's inking, it fine, and actually often very good when its done on top of someone else's pencils. Its just John Byrne's inks on top of John Byrne's art is kinda suckie to my eye. Don't ask me why, or too explain. After all I'm on the internet and so I feel empowered to spout my ill informed opinion without  recourse to logic or reason and so can state as fact that John Byrne is John Byrne's worst inker (well after Joe Sinnott and Al Migrom).

It also highlights another thing. After all in 1983 John Byrne is pretty much at the heights of his powers and one of the US's greatest comic book artists. He's not long off his seminal (if very hard to read these days) run with Chris Claremont on the X-Men, I think he's mid Fantastic Four and about to start Alpha Flight (my timeline might be a bit wonky here, he's so prolific its hard to keep track). He's cream of the crop over the other side of the pond. So what does his Dredd show us... well it shows us that 2000ad is really blessed with astonishing artistic talent. If that's the best the US has to off make mine FOOT (as opposed to FOOM for those in the know) Fans Of Old Tharg.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 04 March, 2017, 02:36:49 PM
True. I can remember nothing of that John Byrne tale itself, just that it felt exciting to see his take on Dredd. But that it felt wrong, and made you appreciate the regulars all the more. I'm guessing no mention of this is made in letters pages of the time?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 March, 2017, 08:54:27 AM
1984 Annuals

Think I've mentioned this before when discussing the annual last time I read them a few years back. Around this time the quality of the annuals begins to converge. Alas its not because the 2000ad annuals are catching up with the Dredd Annuals, well they are, but not that alone, the quality of the Dredd Annuals is slowly dropping.

We still get a chunk of excellent Ezquerra art but the stories aren't quite as strong and the other material is starting to really drop off the boil. Shame. The 2000ad annuals are getting better, but still riff with filler and while that is certainly getting better, after all they are able to reprint old 2000ad material and if I was reading this in the day those Flesh reprints would have been gold.

Still I'm really looking forward to next years annuals when as I recall quality collides and I'm curious to see which will trimpuh.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 March, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Oh and meant to say soon to do one of my favourite parts of this whole re-read process. Digging out the next year of materials from my nerd cave. Its so much fun (well now my bog paper issues are bagged and boarded so they don't flop about everywhere. It doesn't half fire up the thrillpower digestive juices as I flick throught the covers of what's to come.

Yummy thrillpower.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 March, 2017, 08:22:12 PM
So 1984 gets off to a fine start. DR and Quinch while not the classic some think it as is great fun. Some wonderful Dredd, some wonderful Strontium Dog, some... pretty lookin' Rogue.

BUT

The thing I want to talk about most is Slaine, not cos its anything other than brilliant, cos it is. Rather the printing. Now I'm not sure if its just my copies, it could be, but from issue 351 Tharg seems to have found the contrast button and cranked it up leaving the subtly of McMahon work too grimmy and dark. It looses so much of its glorious earthy quality. By 354 things seem to be sorted and while the contrast is still turned up it seems the balance is about right and the detail scratches are back to their very best.

When the Progs on this sort of form its in the detail we find things to discuss.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 14 March, 2017, 08:24:33 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but was 1984 well out of the bog roll era? So an printing "errors" over a long period have to be down to editorial misjudgment?...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 March, 2017, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 14 March, 2017, 08:24:33 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but was 1984 well out of the bog roll era? So an printing "errors" over a long period have to be down to editorial misjudgment?...

No... we had the bog roll for a lot longer than that. There was a minor improvement in paper stock and limited extra colour from the 10th anniversary prog onwards, if memory serves (which it probably doesn't).

But all the McMahon Slaine's were on newsprint.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 March, 2017, 09:12:18 PM
So in just two Progs we see what's great and what's terrible about Belardinelli art.

Prog 361 in the opening scene of Dragonheist. Three pages of a man being chased down by a dragon. Watched by glorious nature, seen through his spectral eyes. Its quite the most stunning stuff. His rendition of the forest is stunning, better by the animals watching and then counter by the atypical yet terrifying dragon. Just top class.

Next Prog 362 Slaine fights few chaps, its just... so stilted and static. No movement, no sense of the power of Slaine or the violence he inflicts.

There you go Belardinelli a right old mixed bag of an artist!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 March, 2017, 10:11:54 PM
Interesting little phase just creeping up but after a really really nice start to the year we seem to have hit a mini filler phase. As Slaine and DR and Quinch slip out a host of one off and short stories come in. Always like one off in the Prog but seems to be a little too much in the mix at the moment. I wonder if something was delayed?

Couple of big hitter can't be far off and I wonder of one took longer than hoped, or was Slaine meant to be around longer? Who knows.

Oh and just how brilliant is Portrait of a Politician. Among many greats one of my all time favourite Dredd stories. So much packed into just 4 episodes. Ron Smith humanity in Dave is staggering. Its daft funny, sharp funny and satire funny all in one great action strip. An absolute classic Dredd.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2017, 10:45:44 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 March, 2017, 10:11:54 PM
Oh and just how brilliant is Portrait of a Politician.

Very much so. It remains one of my major 2000AD guilt trips that I really didn't appreciate how good Ron Smith was when I was reading this stuff at the time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 April, 2017, 09:30:14 PM
!984 hasn't inspired too much comment and I think I'll reflect on why that is when I get to the end of the year. As we approach that though we get to an interesting phase for the Galaxy's Greatest. Prog's 385 - 387 are an interesting bunch.

385 marks the end of a couple of significent stories. Outlaw the epic Strontium Dog tale blasts to a conclusion and I have to be honest I wasn't sorry. Its not been bad and the art has been exception.... its just been a little flabby. In recent time we've had some tight lean Johnny stories, Outlaw feels a little like its striving for epic status without really the reason for this. Its fun and has some glorious moments... it just feels padded. I think its a very popular story, but for me one of Strontium Dog weaker for a while. It could be a brilliant 10 parter I think...

... a brilliant 10 parter now there's a thought, In 385 one of those finishes. Not much really to be said about Halo Jones book 1 that concludes in the same issue as Outlaw. It gets better with age doesn't it. I always think Skizz is my favourite Alan Moore story in the Prog... I'm wrong. The only problem with Halo Jones is its not padded at all. I'd have loved to stayed longer explore The Loop with Halo and friends. I'm so tempted now get some sort of reprint of this so I can lavish in the art that is so poorly served by the boo paper.

Any recommendation for full sized Halo Jones reprints?

Anyway Prog 385 is a nicely appropriate traditional filler issue. There does feel like there's been a lot of filler this year and between the two progs surrounding it this one actually feels right though.

Prog 386... well there's a launch Prog. Nemesis is back, Helltrekkers still has promise and Ortiz on art, Ace Trucking has started a new thrill with can't be as bad as the last which I really didn't enjoy and starts very well, Rogue Trooper kicks off what should have been its last tale (well I'm clearly being generous there but you catch my drift). Dredd...

... well Dredd has had its ups and downs this year. Some real highs and some pretty average stuff. A Question of Judgement is a stone cold classic. Whats going to be interesting is seeing how each of these strips develops as we end 1984... I thunk its going to be a very mixed bag!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Spikes on 07 April, 2017, 10:10:10 PM
Ah, 1984. I remember it well. 'Twas the year I left the prog behind, only to return again in 2011....


Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 April, 2017, 09:30:14 PM
Any recommendation for full sized Halo Jones reprints?

Well, its gotta be the original 3 TITAN books, hasn't it? It's what I did.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 09 April, 2017, 11:31:48 AM
Quote from: Spikes on 07 April, 2017, 10:10:10 PM
Ah, 1984. I remember it well. 'Twas the year I left the prog behind, only to return again in 2011....


Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 April, 2017, 09:30:14 PM
Any recommendation for full sized Halo Jones reprints?

Well, its gotta be the original 3 TITAN books, hasn't it? It's what I did.

Yeah, what Spikes said - nothing compares to the initial Titan reprints (though I have the latter all-in-one as well) - the whole package is pretty perfect - original full-colour Gibson cover on each, pages scanned from the original artwork (I'm guessing - I've read that's what Titan did with their first releases).  Only thing lacking is they could have had a little more concept artwork.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2017, 07:47:16 PM
Prog 392

Oh right, yeah I forgot that... see I pay so little attention to Rogue Trooper, on this read as others, skip reading really, not really taking it in (after each time when I satrt to read the series I try to fire up proper enthusiasm, if to enable me to enjoy the glorious art more if nothing else... anyway I'm getting distracted). So I forget so much of what happens, including it would seem how fitting the end is...

... alas its only fitting in that its so weak. It promise so much, yet in in end it has no substance, its utterly flat, full of potential and while looking beautiful just in story, dialogue and character really poor. Ultimately its just poor. So like the series as a whole.

So 'The End'... oh that it were.

Mind Dredd has had a blindin' few weeks, the triology (if unoffical) of Case of, Error of, and Case for are pretty special, setting up things to come for years. The Wally Squad as feels so perfect in developing this new tone so the big story to come is going to be fantastic is it... oh yeah... I remember now...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 April, 2017, 09:47:16 PM
1984

Not quite sure what to say about 1984 really. A bit of a mixed bag of a year really. Some absolute highlights. Dredd has some absolutely stunning stuff going on. In fact the highs of 1984 are probably the very best there's been to date. Halo Jones is of course magnificent. In between though...

... well I like DR and Quinch but its not great. I love Strontium Dog, but Outlaw is a bit hit and miss for me. The return of Ace Trucking see the series, at first not find its form. There's a LOT of one offs of very variable quality. And Rogue Trooper... well I think I've said enough about that already.

Much like last year however by the end of the year things are really cooking. I'm enjoying the start of Helltrekkers far more than I remember, Nemesis Book IV is quite brilliant, Stainless Steel Rat has a great opening and Strike is a bit of an ace up the progs sleeve seeing Garp and co back at the top of their game. So yeah the trick is can we carry these highs into the new year. 1984 didn't hold onto the highs of the end of 1983, will 1985 manage it?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 13 April, 2017, 11:47:58 AM
Yes. Yes, it will! Apart from a certain blue-skinned fella letting the line-up down, it's onward and upward into 1985, I predict.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 April, 2017, 09:13:25 PM
I feel I should say more about the 1985 Annuals... but I'm not sure I have much to say? The quality of the annuals starts to continues to converge. 2000ad 1985 is the best yet. Some real highlights, Slaine, Alan Moore ABC Warriors, a beautiful Dredd by Gibson. So nice filler and some filler filler. But its a solid product.

Dredd 1985 is continuing to slip. Again real highlights, black and white Gibson here as beautful as the coloured Dredd. Some solid Ezqueera stories and again a chunk of filler.

You know the two are probably on a par this year. As much for 2000ad annuals getting better as Judge Dredd ones not being able to live up to the astonishing standards of the first few.

The 1984  2000ad  Sci-Fi Special isn't all that much to write home about. Very interesting to see early Cliff Robinson, his work very much that of a man finding his feet. It doesn't feel quite ready yet to me. Mind we all know it will come soon enough! Some fantastic John Stokes art in a cute Future Shock and some stunning Brett Ewins art in a ... pretty typical... Rogue Trooper story. The rest is filler of various quality.

Now next years Special has a very special place in my heart. I always dread reading it as I'm not sure it holds up!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 April, 2017, 09:35:58 PM
So 1985 is destined to be an interesting year. In many ways I consider it the year I really got into 2000ad. Even though I'd been reading it on and off since the start I'd always read other people's, mainly my brother's copy and comics had felt disposible. All the old progs fell victims to various clear outs by the mum monster. 1985 saw me get 2000ad for myself for the first time and it's also the start of me being a proper comics fan, as opposed to a kid reading comics like all kids did. So perversely the prog of this year lack some of the majesty of the earlier years, I owned them and know them like the back of my hand and as such they don't quite have the same mystic... still we'll see how we go.

Anyway at the moment we are still in the glories of pre-summer 85 and it's all still quite mystically exciting.... well Nemesis book 4 is... Stainless Steel Rat for President sees this strip end on an  absolute high... Helltrekkers is surprising me with how entertaining I'm finding this dated thrill.... Rogue is steadfastly proving even a revamp can't save this old war horse and of course we have Dredd which is a surethin...

...oh hold on no its a bit rubbish.

I've never been a fan of 'City of the Damned' and my latest re-read isn't doing it any favours. I think I got bored with it long before Wagner and Grant did. They just seemed to be trying to throw so much stuff at the story, seeming convinced by the success of 'Cry of the Werewolf' and 'Haunting of Sector House 9' that throwing horror at Dredd is a safe bet. But so little of this hits the mark and so much just splashes against a wall of cliche. There's some great moments, love the riffing off Spiderman 33 (intended or otherwise) of the Gibson drawn indominitable Dredd, and it looks superb in the main, but it's all a bit aimless and listless. A bit of a Dredd low, which given we are about to enter what I consider a bit of a high when Cam Kennedy soon takes control of the series with some of my all time favourite stories, is a bit of a shame.

Still a Dredd shocker aside 1985 starts off well enough.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 May, 2017, 09:05:31 PM
Prog 411

Interesting times in the Prog as we race towards the time I really think of as mine. Its like the Prog is shifting in preparation for my arrival. I'd read so much in the past its as if Tharg was shifting the house around to make it feel new to me...

.... trouble is I'm not sure I like it.

Dredd has a lovely procedural end to Hunter's Club, kinda reminiscent of procedural that will repeat at their best in the future, though feels a little fresh and different here, not sure if that's my imagination.

Rogue Trooper tries to freshen up the setting. Like a WWII war story shifting from the European Front to the Far East... the trouble is it takes the dullest thing with it Rogue, while leaving behind the best the craziness of Nu Earth. Surprised this strip coild get worse!

Slaine likewise makes a paradigm shift. In the old days I loved it. On re-reads not so much... now... I'm really not getting on with it. It all feels so jarring and I have to say Glenn Fabry's art really lacks the storytelling skills he will develop. Its all too close to really get a sense of place and with all the visual redesign it feels confused.

So yeah we have all this book ended by the new and innovative Halo Jones and old Helltrekkers and in the middle all feels a bit unsettled. 2000ad is often at its best when its testing its boundaries... but sometimes it shouldn't do that with staples.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2017, 09:20:02 PM
So we're in a bit of a special phase for me. While the pre Prog 416 (not 415 as I always seem to say) stories always feel a little bit special I've not read them as much, or certainly those readings are lost in the mists of time and many issues I didn't own myself until about 10 or so years ago, the Progs from 416 - 430 have a different magic. I bought these progs from Forbidden Planet (when there was just one) on holiday in London after buying 431 and the Summer Special on a whim (or holiday treat for the car journey I imagine).

For one glorious summer holiday these Progs completely dominated my thoughts. I read and re-read these time and time again. As my collection built from here, there was more and more Progs and less and less time to re-read them endlessly as I slowly got into American comics too. These Progs in particular are burnt into my mind. So many Panels I can remember perfectly. Even fan art I remember almost 20 20 from the likes of T Proudfoot, whatever became of him.

Its funny I was 13 when I got these comics, a time I should have been moving away from such things, like so many others did. These reversed that and I got more and more absorbed into the incomparible wonders of 'sequential art.'

I owe these Progs so much.

So when I read them now its a little weird. A strange mix of almost over familarity and absolute nostalgia - glorious evocative stuff. Its hard to evaluate them out of that context. When I do there are a couple of surprises... well actually one main one.

The Dredd's is still absolutely staggeringly good as we enter what I think is my favourite passage of stories from the series, certainly from the pre Wagner return of the 950s (or whenever it was). Cam Kennedy becomes the predominant artist and the stories are just mindblowingly good. Saturday Night Fever being a prime example. Just genius.

Anderson's first solo story is glorious. Probably my favourite Dark Judges story. They just felt perfect in this story and the art from Brett Ewins is sublime. Cliff Robinson does a great job on the back stretch but Ewins chapters are something else.

Strontium Dog is pretty damned fine, but I'll come back to that.

Rogue Trooper... well he's on Horst and its... crap frankly. Still Jose Ortiz continues the fine tradition of dressing up the crap so at least it looks tasty.

Slaine is the shock. I loved this back in the day and re-reading it here, as I've said earlier is just so disappointing. Its all a bit chaotic and not in a good way. Ideas are thrown at it ten to the dozen and few of them work. The art has some glorious moments but it just isn't enough. The change from 'old' Slaine (which I had read back in the day but didn't mean as much to me) is just not working. Its jarring rather than fresh and new.

Still it all means so much to me, good and ill. Like Star Wars and Flesh, in many ways much in here shapes what I define as good reading.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2017, 09:25:44 PM
Strontium Dog in Prog 425

I've pulled this out of the wittering of my previous post so it didn't get lost.

I rarely talk about detail here... as I'm not much of a detail chap, as my spelling and grammar will atest to. But Strontium Dog in 425 is just golden. Johnny doesn't even appear outside a photo but this episode, The Slavers of Drule part 1. Its just scripted so fantastically. Its so evokes what the strip is about. Its loaded with greatness. Right down to the find bubble.

"He's a Search/Destroy Agent.
They say if you pay them enough they'll track a man to hell itself"

Hell yeah now that's dialogue!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 23 May, 2017, 02:18:47 PM
Prog 425 was one of my very first as well, and you're getting close to my personal equialent of 'treasured early Progs read to death as an impressionable youth'. That opening epsiode of Slavers of Drule is drokking fantastic!

You now have me scared to re-read Slaine 'Tomb of Terror' which was my introduction to the character, and much beloved. Along with those really ropey 'people on a D&D quest' comics ads that ran in the Nerve Centre.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 23 May, 2017, 10:08:24 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 23 May, 2017, 02:18:47 PM
Prog 425 was one of my very first as well, and you're getting close to my personal equialent of 'treasured early Progs read to death as an impressionable youth'. That opening epsiode of Slavers of Drule is drokking fantastic!

You now have me scared to re-read Slaine 'Tomb of Terror' which was my introduction to the character, and much beloved. Along with those really ropey 'people on a D&D quest' comics ads that ran in the Nerve Centre.

I quite like those ads - I'm not sure I did at the time, but I've grown to appreciate that, er, stylised art style since.  I should go through them to see if I can mine them for adventures (I'm a DM now :-) ).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 June, 2017, 09:05:27 PM
As we stumble towards the end of the year we hit another very special Prog to me Prog 435, shortly after getting back on board I was lucky enough to have a jumping on Prog and man what a Prog it is.

Dredd continues to be sublime with a strip which for me is the quintessial jumping on intro Dredd. There's been a number of these over the years but this one, one of the earliest is so definative and covers so much of Dredd'd world with a simple mundane army robbery caper. But its not about the crime in this one, its not about the crazy, though there's plenty of that on display, no this is all about the basics. Its just a simole introduction done so very well with beautiful Cam Kennedy art, a phrase I think you'll be hearing over and over again over the next few posts (or more).

In addition this Prog is awash with threats. Nemesis Book V starts, a strip I've really excited about reading again. I'd read a lot of the previous Nemesis and in my head, and on previous re-reads I dont remember the books post Book IV being quite as good as the early volumes. We'll see, I'm certainly excited to see how I get on with it this time round and it certainly gets off to a blistering start, as I recall the pace won't let up either!

There's also a fun Tharg story, another Pete Milligan Future Shock, not that I'm complaining they are always entertaining and occasionally brilliant, but I just didn't remember him being quite as prolific on the old Future Shock front, he's done LOADS.

But the very best thing about this exception Prog is the return of Sam Slade in what I always fondly remember as my all time favourite Robo-hunter story 'Farewell my billions'. Its got stiff competiton this time around as the story early Brit-Cit stories have been among the absolute highlights of my re-read to date, but man I have such fond memories of this story. Can't wait to tuck in again.

So yeah I think I go lucky when I got back into the Prog. I had a nice easy get on, stumbled across a bunch of back issues in the early days of UK comic shops AND then had what I still regard as one of the all time great jump on Progs almost as soon as I was on board.

When comics are this good was it any wonder I stuck around!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 June, 2017, 10:05:07 PM
Wow reckon I'm going to have a lot to say over the next few issues and while we still have even more Milligan Future Shocks and Farewell My Billions is as good as I remember. Even though I'm enjoying Nemesis a heck of a lot its Dredd I want to talk about now and specifically The Man Who Knew Too Much.

Now back in the day I don't think I was too taken by this story, after all its surrounded by so many classic tales. I think I did find it interesting, just not exciting. As the years gone by its grown and grown in my eyes.These days its one of my favourites and for me a very under-rated classic.

See its important, its significent and its a quiet change that means so much and in that context everytime I read it I find more and more. See for me rightly or wrongly this is a real shift in the series. Sure Wagner and Grant have dealt with the darker side of the Judges. Sure they've dealt with the way they oppress the citizens but its never bveen so front and centre. Its never been so central and while that might appear to makes things less subtle it always makes it all the more terrifying.

In many way Fisher Wildman is not particularly sympathetic and that makes this work. Here Wagner and Grant aren't pulling on our heart strings their showing us the bare truth. They don't want to dostract by making us too attached to Wildman, yet we feel his fear and desperation all the same, cold and exposed.

For me this story is up there with Letter from a Democrat as one of the stories that truly starts the shift from Dredd as it was to Dredd as it will become.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 June, 2017, 09:04:24 PM
Wow so much for me to whitter about on this particularly wonderful run of Progs. Its funny on past re-reads this stretch had felt a little too familiar to really stand out - this time round for whatever reason the quality is really shining through. Combined with the massive nostaglia hit they give me and the sense of how they shaped who I am as a reader and consumer of fiction in all forms it really is an absolute golden spell this time round. I mean top of the heap, A number one.

I mean I knew the Dredds of this time were amongst my favourites, and we have another standout here in the heartbreaking Death of a Politician. We've had many Pete Milligan future shock and in Its the Thought that Counts with have one of my all time favourite one offs. For whatever reason this one has always stood out to me and stuck in my noggin. Just amazing stuff.

But all of that isn't the reason I post the reason I post is that Robo-Hunter - Farewell My Billions really has stood up to the test of time.Its clear that Robo-hunter is at its best when the stories are kept to a decent lenght, the early, short Brit-Cit stories I hailed a while ago and this absolute classic are just head and tales (pun intended) above the more stretched yarns like Death Of and the singie thingie. This is tight, sharp, funny, intriguing, exciting and just so much fun and Ian Gibson is just firing on all cylinders. This story really is amongst the finest the Prog has had to offer. And to stand out in Progs as good as this is quite the thing!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 06 June, 2017, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 06 June, 2017, 09:04:24 PM...and Ian Gibson is just firing on all cylinders.

Much as I love Gibson's work on Halo Jones Book III (and generally!), I often think that Farewell My Billions is his true masterpiece.  It's just a level up from what he had done on Robohunter before.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 11 June, 2017, 06:50:52 AM
I, too, share a deep love for RoboHunter: Farewell, my Billions. It could do with a high-end reprint as Droid Files Vol 2 suffers from some tragically poor scanning/printing, even in the digital edition!

Without bursts of Nemesis, Halo Jones and indeed those Milligan Future Shocks, this is the era when EVERYTHING was penned by Wagner & Grant. Not coincidence it's one of the all-time high points of Progness...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 June, 2017, 04:13:53 PM
1985

As I've dicussed a lot of the course of my whittering for 1985's Progs this year is hard for me to judge in a sober, cleaner header manner. Its so entrenched in what I value - not just in 2000ad, not just in comics, but in entertainment as a whole. So when I say its the finest year in thrill power to date you need to take that with a pinch of salty nostaglia.

That said objectively it is a bloomin' fantastic year. Firstly we shouldn't just take Dredd for granted, which its easy to do. 1984 had some real highs in Dredd, once we get past City of the Damned in early February, 1985 is pretty much nothing but highs, I can think of very few that are anything other than top rate and in some cases they are some of my absolute favourites (mind that said I have a feeling that 1986 Dredd might be better, I'm really looking forward to finding that one out!).

On top of Dredd you have some other absolute classic thrills, most of which I've mentioned specifically in early so I'll save you more of my gushing, though I think I missed Halo Jones book II but really there is some astonishingly good stuff in 1985.

So its the best year... well maybe, there is of course some lower points. Rogue Trooper continues but to be honest that's just become background muzak as you whistle to yourself in the lift taking you up Thrillpower Heights. Slaine I've mentioned takes a real nose dive, a real nose dive and by the end of the year in Tombs of Terror is really struggling. Mean Team is a real sticker too and never really works out what it is. Even the Bad Jack Keller, the most terrible of 2000ad 'heroes' doesn't quite make sense as the series flaps around trying to work out what the heck it is. As it ends its just utter poppycock I'm afraid.

The end of 1985 also has some other worrying signs. Strontium Dog starts one of my least favourite of Johnny stories with the berserk Ragnorak Job, Even Nemesis isn't as good as it was. Book IV started the year on a real high, Book V is a bit uneven, it starts at break neck speed, rattles to a fantastic end after about 8 parts but then seems to blunder on for 3 or 4 more parts not really achieving anything else. It all felt a bit mistimed... that said its still bloody good and has some truly classic Nemesis moments and lets face it if the main negatives to focus on for the year are Strontium Dog slipping (especially remembering whats coming after this!) and Nemesis slipping from stunningly amazing to just plain fantastic, I think that says everything about the quality of 1985.

Maybe proclaiming it the best year yet in thrillpower isn't simply fuelled by personal bias?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 June, 2017, 09:04:02 PM
So talking about things being special to you let talk 2000ad Sci-Fi Special 1985

This alongside Prog 431 is the comic get did it for me. I wonder if I got this first, don't honestly know BUT I know the ad on the back for Forbidden Planet (there were 2 not one it would seem) is the one that led me to Denmark Street and... well I've done that before. So yeah this Special has a ... well special place in my heart. The trouble is ... its not actually that good... well okay the Dredd is the fun almost classic I think it is. The Cam Kennedy art, man one day I will own a piece from this. Another cool Pete Milligan Future Shock, Dr + Quinch is fluff fun and that Halo Jones poster in the middle is just fantastic...

... but in the real word, not in Colin's memory world the rest is filler pure and simple. I mean I loved the Ro-Busters stories back in the day, but they're not the best. I loved the Daily Dredd reprints too, but while they are good they are just reprints now. There's some fun quizzes and text pieces, and that kinda crazy Tharg meets film and telly stars but on re-read its all a bit light on substance.

None of this will affect my love of this special BUT unlike the regular Progs of this time the memory and affection doesn't really hold up in reality.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 June, 2017, 09:07:03 PM
Annuals 1985

Not much to say about these, both 2000ad and Dredd annuals labelled 1986 are okay, nothing more, nothing less BUT when the quality is pretty imuch evenly matched as it is here its become clear that I prefer the variety in the 2000ad annuals simply cos of the variety.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Huey2 on 27 June, 2017, 08:51:44 PM
"Much as I love Gibson's work on Halo Jones Book III (and generally!), I often think that Farewell My Billions is his true masterpiece.  It's just a level up from what he had done on Robohunter before."

- Ian Gibson's always been great but during the 400s he's really on fire. " Tomb of the Judges" is another classic featuring some of the best Dredd artwork ever.

" Farewell my Billions" is a great tale. It's like the two Ace Trucking stories that came just before it - "Strike" and the last Evil Blood story - where the story is driven totally by the interactions of the main characters rather than external forces. It would be great to see this kind of thing more often.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 June, 2017, 09:03:56 PM
Quote from: Huey2 on 27 June, 2017, 08:51:44 PM
"Much as I love Gibson's work on Halo Jones Book III (and generally!), I often think that Farewell My Billions is his true masterpiece.  It's just a level up from what he had done on Robohunter before."

- Ian Gibson's always been great but during the 400s he's really on fire. " Tomb of the Judges" is another classic featuring some of the best Dredd artwork ever.


Well reading Halo Jones Book 3 much as I love Farewell My Billions his work on the former is just astonishing and really is the definition of him being on fire. I'm sure I'm come back to that later, its not what I'm here for...

... rather I'm here to salute another absolute classic ably assisted by stunning art. I adore The Warlord , it head me over the head at the time and does everytime I read it. I'm always surprised its only 5 parts. So much packed in and it just feels so epic I always trick myself that its longer and McGruder's actions at the end felt so significent.

Its a real bright spot in a very shaky start to 1986.... well that and Halo. Elsewhere all is not well. Slaine goes from bad to worse,  I've never been much of a fan of Ragnarok - Strontium Dog can be very hit and miss in its long form stories. Dopplegarp is a story I don't have much love for either... though have to be honest its started better than I recall...

... there's a post here about Wagner and Grant's long form stories some time soon isn't there...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 June, 2017, 09:36:53 PM
Well while Halo Jones continues to be flat out brilliant (see what I did there!) the star of Prog 460 is of Dredd as Letter From A Democrat appears.

Its interesting to compare the work of Alan Moore, so poised, so elegant and considered. Its brilliant, layered and deep. Yet Wagner and Grants Dredd is the more powerful and in many ways superior. Its more direct, rugged and honest. Its not quite as smart, yet somehow manages to be 'better'. Its a quiet explosion of what the strips been building to for 2 or 3 years now and while its not exactly subtle it hits home and works perfectly.

Alas they also expose the weakness of the rest of the Prog at this time!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 30 June, 2017, 10:32:10 PM
I remember the week 'Letter From A Democrat' came out. I was literally grabbing everyone I knew who read comics and pressing the issue into their hands, saying 'You must read this..."

Six pages. You can't do that with Watchmen, or Dark Knight, or America, even. For a Dredd fan, it was like a seismic charge: it goes off somewhere deep below your feet and everything shakes to its foundations. In my head, it pairs off with 'John Cassavetes Is Dead', which shakes the foundations in a similar, but much quieter, way.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 July, 2017, 07:10:25 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 June, 2017, 10:32:10 PM
For a Dredd fan, it was like a seismic charge: it goes off somewhere deep below your feet and everything shakes to its foundations.

Wish I'd said that instead of 'quiet explosion' as this is exactly what I meant expressed SO much better. As time goes on and memory distorts I will have said this and Jim will be cast into the dungeon of my mind!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 July, 2017, 09:20:16 PM
Another classic from Wagner Grant and Kennedy. The Falucci Tapes knocks it out the park. This really is Dredd's golden age isn't it. Since the end of City of the Damned its barely missed a step.

Elsewhere the end of Slaine Tomb of Terrible is seeing the Prog pick up in other areas with a nice run of Future Shocks stemming the tide previously held at bay only by Dredd and Halo.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 July, 2017, 09:35:56 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 02 July, 2017, 09:20:16 PM
Another classic from Wagner Grant and Kennedy. The Falucci Tapes knocks it out the park. This really is Dredd's golden age isn't it. Since the end of City of the Damned its barely missed a step.

Yes. The Wagner/Grant/Kennedy Dredds of the 400s are, without exception, brilliant. Dredd is mostly excellent throughout this period, but Cam routinely knocks it out of the park on his stories.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 July, 2017, 08:16:54 PM
Well just finished Halo Jones book 3 and felt I shouldn't let the occasion pass without saying something... but what is left to say about this strip. Just wonderful, Ian Gibson's art is just so good and unlike Skizz which I routinel reference as my favourite Moore strip in 2000ad my God isn't that ending perfect. I mean sure we'd loved to have seen it continue but since it didn't by heck didn't we get the perfect conclusion. Beautiful.

I'll leave it there, but already know I'll be back after the next Prog I read for reasons that are becoming cliche...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 July, 2017, 09:19:00 PM
Well okay not quite next Prog but after a little break I'm back and while I could return to comment on yet another glorious Cam Kennedy Dredd with the two parter The Big Sleep finishing in Prog 467... I could but me releasing my sticky nerd glee all over another Wagner, Grant and Kennedy is anything we need to see again. So I'll not tell you all that this has always been one of my all time favourite Dredd's and its another example of the increasing confidence the strip has in having very little Dredd in it more and more often taking a lesson from Eisner's post 1945 The Spirit stories... no I'll spare you all that and instead skip ahead to

Prog 468

Now I could go into the exciting new thrills that kick off in 468, I could but I suspect each thrill will get its own post in due time as there's so much to reflect on in each for a variety of reasons. Instead I stop by to comment on the amount of 4th wall breakign that happens in this issue.

It starts subtly with Swifty in Sooner and Later, at this point in the series its just a knowing look to the reader, but one that feels like a defo, if not breaking but certainly serious leaning on the 4th Wall.

Then we get to a fantastic Dredd, for once done by Ian Gibson not Cam Kennedy (well to be fair there's been many an artist knocking it out the park with great Dredd scripts of late, it just the Kennedy's really standout to me for some reason) It Pays To Be Mental. A wonderful introduction to new readers told through a very nice device of our 'mental' led just straight chatting to the reader. Made all the more wonderful by Dredd's supreme straightman act as he too looks out at us, but of course seeing nothing. Love it.

Finally some editorial Fourth Wall smashing give ACE Trucking by far its best episode in a long time as Wagner and Grant decide to have fun with having the one ongoing strip in the Prog have to catch new readers up. How to do it, well do it directly, drop Tharg in giving this instruction and then have Ace and Ace just tell the reader what's happening. Hilarious stuff.

So yeah I don't think its coincidence that the Prog does this so much here. By this strange 2000ad is having such confident fun, is so at ease with what it is and how good it is that its just ready to address us the readings directly in celebration of what it is.

Magnificent.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 July, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
So the first of the class of 468 to conclude is Bad City Blue and what a curious beast that is. I enjoyed it much more than I remember. Its mix of 'Escape from New York' and the 70s sci-fi doomsday warnings never quite works but its nice that it tried to pull this off.

I've never been much of a fan of Robin Smith's art and it really lacks the grit I think would have served this story better. I kept wondering how fondly this might be remembered if it was drawn by say Colin Wilson. Mind it would still have that ending. However much I think it was trying to be stark and shocking it just comes off as people running out of steam, not quite knowing what to do with the story and therefore making the most blunt of decisions to satisfy the tone they were going for.

Still its action packed and brave it what it tried to do, if unsuccessful in execution.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 July, 2017, 05:20:45 PM
While I'm at it I'm not sure why Anderson The Possessed has the lukewarm rep it does (it does have a lukewarm rep doesn't it) I really enjoyed it. Sure it lacks the scale of the previous story and indeed the next (if I'm remembering my Anderson right - Hour of the Wolf is next right?) but its a really solid story supported by some beautiful art. The moment when Anderson shots [spoiler]the boy[/spoiler] is done really well and over all I really enjoyed this.

Meanwhile we have a couple of great Morrison Future Shocks BUT also ACE Trucking - The Garpetbaggers which I like even less than the chicken one that ran before hand. Its not a great ending to this hot and cold strip if you ask me. But I'll leave that here rather than whine more openly about it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 24 July, 2017, 01:15:26 PM
Who doesn't like The Possessed?  Why I have a 28mm model of little Hammy/Gargarax on my desk to prove my love.

The only problem I see is that those first three stories (Dark Judges return, possession of kids, doomed connections with edgy foreigners) basically used up all of Anderson's plotlines forever.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 July, 2017, 09:04:55 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 July, 2017, 01:15:26 PM
Who doesn't like The Possessed? 

In my head, a rather messy place and certainly not one to be trusted, it has a pretty bad rep. I might be wrong?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 24 July, 2017, 10:30:53 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 July, 2017, 01:15:26 PM
Who doesn't like The Possessed?  Why I have a 28mm model of little Hammy/Gargarax on my desk to prove my love.
Idiots. That's who.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 24 July, 2017, 10:47:44 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 July, 2017, 01:15:26 PM
The only problem I see is that those first three stories (Dark Judges return, possession of kids, doomed connections with edgy foreigners) basically used up all of Anderson's plotlines forever

Oh my god ... It's like when someone points out a squint. You'd never have noticed it yourself, but now you'll never be able to see anything else.

And yes, everyone loves the Blish kid.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 25 July, 2017, 10:52:59 AM
I love the Possessed, too! I don't know that I've ever heard of it having a bad rep as such, but compared to some stories I think it's often overlooked. Certainly when it comes to Anderson I get the sense that more people slobber over the Four Dark Judges and Shamballa (and, for a while in the 90s, Childhood's End). But I'm no psychic.

My underrated classic Anderson of choice is R*Evolution, which did introduce a new plotline - Anderson gets trapped inside someone else's mind, that happens to contain many other minds, including at least one gorilla. (Used to good effect a second time in WMD)

It's no coincidence that Prog 468 and its neighbours are so excellent - this is the era written almost entirely by Wagner and Grant, with just one page per week by Milligan/McCarthy - and occasionally 3-5 pages of early Future Shocks from G. Morrison and J. Smith. Good times!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 25 July, 2017, 02:44:20 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 25 July, 2017, 10:52:59 AM
My underrated classic Anderson of choice is R*Evolution, which did introduce a new plotline - Anderson gets trapped inside someone else's mind, that happens to contain many other minds, including at least one gorilla. (Used to good effect a second time in WMD)

My first Anderson story, so a favourite of mine, too! Plus I love any appearance by Mega City's ape contingent. It probably spoiled me a bit, in retrospect - I assumed all Anderson stories must be exciting travels into other people's dreams, minds and memories, or Dr Strange-esque cosmic jaunts.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 25 July, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 25 July, 2017, 10:52:59 AM
My underrated classic Anderson of choice is R*Evolution, which did introduce a new plotline - Anderson gets trapped inside someone else's mind...

Damnit, if only I'd included the Anderson solo story from the '85 annual, Mind of Edward Bottlebum, I'd have covered that plot too!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 25 July, 2017, 05:01:49 PM
At the risk of jumping massively ahead... but every much on the subject of using up plots... I caved and bought Dark Justice in the recent sale. In there it says, when Greg Staples suggested a new Dark Judges story to John Wagner he was initially reluctant, saying all Dark Judges stories follow the same basic premise: they show up, wreak havoc, then Dredd defeats them ( guess that should be Dredd and / or Anderson defeat them).

So maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that exactly what happens in Dark Justice. And I assume a variant of that will also happen in Dominion.

Anyway I bought it for the amazing art.

And I do love the news reports and journal updates.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 July, 2017, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 25 July, 2017, 02:44:20 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 25 July, 2017, 10:52:59 AM
My underrated classic Anderson of choice is R*Evolution, which did introduce a new plotline - Anderson gets trapped inside someone else's mind, that happens to contain many other minds, including at least one gorilla. (Used to good effect a second time in WMD)

My first Anderson story, so a favourite of mine, too! Plus I love any appearance by Mega City's ape contingent. It probably spoiled me a bit, in retrospect - I assumed all Anderson stories must be exciting travels into other people's dreams, minds and memories, or Dr Strange-esque cosmic jaunts.

Well I appear to be wrong about Possessed which is good. Nice to hear such love for it.

Equally great to hear people biggin' up R*Evolution too. I'm also a massive fan of that one too... though I'm getting ahead of myself there!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 July, 2017, 09:28:35 PM
A few thoughts on the latest Progs from back in that there 1986.

I'm enjoying Metalzoic a lot more than I thought I would. Always think of this thrill as less than the sum of its parts. Not this time. Crackin' stuff.

While I love Sooner and Later it doesn't half flap around... which is probably the point. I keep checkin' I've not missed one!

Nemesis Book Six is weird... not in subject matter but more the fact that a chase through the Time Wastes as a father desperately hunts his errant son helped by his arch... well ... nemesis boils down to folks chatting exposition on the beach... yet still I bloody love it!

Unlike Garpetbaggers which is... well thank chuff Ace Trucking has come back to the Prog so this lumbering mess isn't how it bows out!

Jez Judge Dredd is just flying during this time, simply flying. I mean check out Atlantic Part 2 page 1 (Prog 486, cos I mean it check this page out... go on I'll wait...) for a strip that is so implanted in my noggin cos of its astonishing visuals that is one sweetly written page. Man its just perfect!

I'll come back to Strontium Dog in a few Progs... oh man will I. I have a correction to make!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 30 July, 2017, 09:32:33 PM
I just love those scenes in the beach in Nemesis. A real highlight of the 40 years of the Prog.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 30 July, 2017, 09:44:54 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 30 July, 2017, 09:28:35 PM
nemesis boils down to folks chatting exposition on the beach... yet still I bloody love it!

Pretty much Bryan Talbot's exact thoughts on the story: "a bunch of weirdos at the seaside having a chat."
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 30 July, 2017, 09:54:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA link=topic=43337.msg964394#msg964394 date=1501446515

Unlike Garpetbaggers which is... well thank chuff
b]Ace Trucking [/b]has come back to the Prog so this lumbering mess isn't how it bows out!

It's terrible stuff, isn't it? Pretty much everything involving Captains Evil Blood/Guts and chickens could be excised from Ace Trucking and it would improve the quality of the overall strip by 50%. How did we get from Too Many Bams to this...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 30 July, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
I suppose it's the inevitable end result when you get a pair of writers to write a series they don't particularly want to write any more. That said, whilst Garpetbaggers is indeed absolutely terrible, at least the series goes out on a high with the '89 annual story, which is great (and beautifully painted), and brings 'Ace Trucking Co.' to a very fitting conclusion.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 July, 2017, 10:06:09 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 30 July, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
I suppose it's the inevitable end result when you get a pair of writers to write a series they don't particularly want to write any more. That said, whilst Garpetbaggers is indeed absolutely terrible, at least the series goes out on a high with the '89 annual story, which is great (and beautifully painted), and brings 'Ace Trucking Co.' to a very fitting conclusion.

Oh this one has evaporated from my memory... entirely it would seem. Looking forward to refreshing myself on this one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 31 July, 2017, 03:04:14 PM
I will put my hand up and say that as an 8-year old in 1986, I have fond memories of the Garpetbaggers. I think I liked the film references, or at least the ones I got, anyway (Rambo and King Kong). And, at the time, I hadn't read any of the old Garp stuff - all I knew was that Belardinelli was the best artist ever and it was silly fun.

I tried to re-read it not long ago and just couldn't; it's awful! I do still like the Dopplegarp, though (the chicken story) - that's got some genuine screwball funnies going for it.

Sooner or Later was my first exposure to arty pretentious comics. I barely understood it and then and only a little better now, but the visuals are so striking, and the tone so warped that I rate it pretty highly overall.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 August, 2017, 09:19:37 PM
Well surrounded by big stars as Morrison, Gaiman and the man who should have rised to stardom with them John Smith all have Future Shocks (Smiths introducing the proto-Indigo Prime) an old War Horse comes to a bitter conclusion of a true classic as Strontium Dog - Rage concludes in Prog 489.

While the young stars do indeed shine bright its the relentless darkness of Rage that truly illuminates. Experienced creators timing a simple revenge story to perfection. Relentlessly hammering home the simple theme of cold revenge and the hollow lack of redemption it brings. Its an absolute timeless masterpiece. A truly classic western. I while ago I mistaken called Portrait of a Mutant my favourite Strontium Dog story. What a young fool I was all those... well months ago...

While I'm at it Incident on Mayger Minor provides a wonderful epilogue of sorts to. Great stuff.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2017, 09:19:12 PM
Quick detour before taking the last of 1986 on my jollies I visited the years two annuals to save me having to take them with me.

Both are decant pieces, if as ever full of filler. 2000ad Annual 1987 has a very curious Rogue Trooper by Pete Milligan bouyed by some absolutely stunning colour art by Jose Ortiz. A nice Morrison future shock see Grant flexing his meta muscles. The highlight of the book is the Wagner Grant and Talbot Dredd, a lovely story Alan Gramt then provides some adequate if slightly uninspiring Strontium Dog and Anderson.

As ever it seems you pay a little more for the Judge Dredd 1987 Annual but you get your monies worth. It open with art by Ian Gibson that almost matches that of Ortiz opening the 2000ad in a delightfully cheeky Dredd story. The real value however comes in the literally psychodelic main story 16 pages of Brendan McCarthy doing his thing as Dredd trips on some good gas. A story that's always stuck with me and stands the test of time so very well with each re-read. Wonderful. The two tales that round it off a fun Max Normal showcasing Brett Ewins art and another Talbot Dredd hold the JD annual well ahead of the 2000ad one.

So while I say they are both decant maybe that's unfair. The Dredd might not be quite up there with those first few Dredd annuals but it does a damned good job of trying.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 August, 2017, 09:28:08 PM
So quick holiday thoughts via my smartphone... not bloody smart enough to stop my typos I don't doubt! I digest.

The cover of Prog 496 struck me... when I got back to my feet I also noticed how quickly Cliff Robinon has become the drawing a classie Dredd image to go with a one liner. In the last 6 issues we've had 'Eye of the beholder' 'Best logo in the world' AND 'Bring me your...' Man that's set up a pattern that lucky we still see 30 plus years later.

Magnificent.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 August, 2017, 07:39:01 PM
So Prog 499 clears the stalls and its interesting stuff. Ace Trucking ground to a halt an issue early and I'll leave that there as I think I've made my feeling on this stpry quite clear.

After the glory that was Incident on Mayger Minor on read now in my under-rated classics list (http://battlefield) is a slight but no less fun Strontium Dog story. Sooner or Later finishes and to be honest while I've loved it this strip never quite reaches the heights it has in my minds eye. I think it was pretty incredible to my 14 year old mind, to my 45 year old mind, which has read a LOT more comics its not quite as stand out as I remember.

Two other strips are of more significence here though. Both Rogue Trooper and Slaine see a return to form... well okay the former hasn't ever had any form in my eyes BUT there's no denying this story seems to set up potential... potential which I don't think is ever realised, still we'll see. As ever in Steve Dillon served by good art. Slaine while not at its early glories has moved on from the leyser and dice nonsense we've had over the last couple of years. So year two classic strips set up for big things. Change is a coming to the Prog and next yeat will see much of significence.

Though I'm getting ahead of myself. First we have the small matter of Prog 500 to get to and 1986 still has a few tricks up its sleeve I seem to remember...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 August, 2017, 09:33:57 PM
So after Prog 499 there's really only one place to go isn't there and thats...

Prog 500

In many ways the archetype for the celebration prog. Certainly those done well. This comics has the perfect mix. Classic thrils returning. In this case Slaine - not long gone... well in fact its been back for like 8 progs prior to this BUT returned to stella form - and Nemesis. Both of which I'm sure I'll take time to type about at some point. We have a lovely Dredd, all be it not a specifically an introductory one as might otherwise be the case.

We also have a new thrill as should be the case in all such issues as 2000ad always looks to the future and innovates. In this case a little known thrill called... oh what was it now, oh yeah Bad Company or some such. Might come back to that... you think?

Finally we have the Tharg retrospective/ celebratory thrill in this case the classic and famous, almost as much for what it doesn't do as what it does - Tharg's Head Revisited. Creators, often with Pat Mills, allowed an, almost, free hand to let rip and let rip they do. Its not so much meta-satire rather it comes across as a rather beautiful primal scream therapy session!

Its a glorious Prog in and of itself but more importantly for me with Tharg's Head Revisited and Bad Company its a harbinger of times coming, changes in the order of things and the start of a changing of the guard. As it should be Prog 500 still feels like a very important issue.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 07 August, 2017, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 August, 2017, 09:33:57 PM
Its a glorious Prog in and of itself but more importantly for me with Tharg's Head Revisited and Bad Company its a harbinger of times coming, changes in the order of things and the start of a changing of the guard. As it should be Prog 500 still feels like a very important issue.

I shall read your musings from this point onwards with particular interest, since this is the beginning of 'my' era - the period from 500-700 is very much the period I've got the strongest attachment to. Is this the beginning of the post-modern era of 2000AD?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2017, 07:34:22 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 August, 2017, 09:49:16 PM
Is this the beginning of the post-modern era of 2000AD?

Yeah that's the question I will be asking. Prog 500 seems like such a marker. Pete Milligan's Bad Company laying a marker for the new and Tharg's Head Revisited laying to rest what has gone before. The approaching format change marking a pretension to be 'more' than just a regular comic, which it should be remembered were still fairly plentiful at this time.

Even the Dredd in 500 had very dark overtones almost rejecting more frothy greats that had marked the classics before... though this is a bit of stretch I to say!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 08 August, 2017, 08:09:49 AM
Dat cover, tho.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Muon on 08 August, 2017, 10:26:58 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 August, 2017, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 August, 2017, 09:33:57 PM
Its a glorious Prog in and of itself but more importantly for me with Tharg's Head Revisited and Bad Company its a harbinger of times coming, changes in the order of things and the start of a changing of the guard. As it should be Prog 500 still feels like a very important issue.

I shall read your musings from this point onwards with particular interest, since this is the beginning of 'my' era - the period from 500-700 is very much the period I've got the strongest attachment to. Is this the beginning of the post-modern era of 2000AD?

That's kind of "my" era too. I have fond memories of sitting on the floor one summer holiday with a load of progs from around the late 400s to the mid 500s fanned out in front of me and getting my mind blown by strips like Bad Company. I started getting the prog for myself not long after that.

It's interesting that most people trace the "decline" of 2000AD to around prog 520 when that was around the time I was getting into it. There was certainly a tension between old and new in that period, looking back. It'll be interesting to see what Colin makes of it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 08 August, 2017, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Muon on 08 August, 2017, 10:26:58 AM
It's interesting that most people trace the "decline" of 2000AD to around prog 520 when that was around the time I was getting into it.

That's unusually specific - is that because undisputed works of genius Bad Company, Slaine the King and The Dead all end in Prog 519 and in their place comes the mediocrity of the (admittedly very well drawn) Hit-era of Rogue Trooper?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 08 August, 2017, 10:31:31 PM
Well not to spoil Colin's narrative journey, but Greg's 'post-modern' proggage isn't far off the mark.  From 520 there's a very serious spell of self-referential rehashing, reworking and rejection of coherent narratives - Whitey returns (again) in Dredd; Orlok returns in Anderson; DR & Quinch is regurgitated as the Agony Page; Strontium Dog does The Schicklegruber Grab again but with the Spitting Image Reagan; Mean Arena returns as Mean Team, and then Mean Team itself returns as feck knows what for a thousand pages. 

Luckily (the rather post-modern superhero) Zenith is just around the corner. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 08 August, 2017, 10:47:51 PM
Whilst I was originally thinking of the absurdist spins given to traditional comics narratives by Messrs Milligan, Morrison and later Smith ( featuring leads ambivalent in both role and motivation, something that even spills into Mills and the Hicklenton-era Nemesis), it's hard to argue with TB's suggestion that this all coincides with the prog achieving a kind of ironic self-awareness.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 09 August, 2017, 01:53:31 AM
Self-awareness is never good. TB nailed it as usual.

Which raises a question. Where does reread end? Plough on through the crud that saw me/others jump ship? What does that serve, we're not academics...  :) There's an offensive summer but then decades, to reach now...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 09 August, 2017, 08:38:19 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 08 August, 2017, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Muon on 08 August, 2017, 10:26:58 AM
It's interesting that most people trace the "decline" of 2000AD to around prog 520 when that was around the time I was getting into it.

That's unusually specific - is that because undisputed works of genius Bad Company, Slaine the King and The Dead all end in Prog 519 and in their place comes the mediocrity of the (admittedly very well drawn) Hit-era of Rogue Trooper?

Nah - it definitely had glossy covers by the time it was going downhill.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 09 August, 2017, 09:37:39 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 09 August, 2017, 08:38:19 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 08 August, 2017, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Muon on 08 August, 2017, 10:26:58 AM
It's interesting that most people trace the "decline" of 2000AD to around prog 520 when that was around the time I was getting into it.

That's unusually specific - is that because undisputed works of genius Bad Company, Slaine the King and The Dead all end in Prog 519 and in their place comes the mediocrity of the (admittedly very well drawn) Hit-era of Rogue Trooper?

Nah - it definitely had glossy covers by the time it was going downhill.

Post-520 is the start of a slump, but doesn't represent any kind of permanent pattern of decline. Such towering glories still await, and soon!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 09 August, 2017, 10:23:54 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 08 August, 2017, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Muon on 08 August, 2017, 10:26:58 AM
It's interesting that most people trace the "decline" of 2000AD to around prog 520 when that was around the time I was getting into it.

That's unusually specific - is that because undisputed works of genius Bad Company, Slaine the King and The Dead all end in Prog 519 and in their place comes the mediocrity of the (admittedly very well drawn) Hit-era of Rogue Trooper?

No, it's because 'it was never the same after they stopped printing it on bog paper'. *

They're right though; apart from Zenith, The Horned God, Necropolis/The Dead Man, Chopper: Song Of The Surfer, Judge Dredd: Revolution, and ABC Warriors: The Black Hole, progs 520-700 were unmitigated pish.

Even outside the ranks of those acknowledged classics, Hicklenton Nemesis, Cinnabar, Indigo Prime, Anderson: Hour Of The Wolf and Triad, Tyranny Rex, Bad Company: The Bewilderness/The Krool Heart, the first Summer Magic, Freaks, Tribal Memories, and Rogue Trooper:War Machine stack up pretty well against endless Ace Trucking Company and GFD Rogue Trooper.**

None of those are Halo Jones Book Three, but then neither are Halo Jones books one or two.


* © Garth Ennis. In truth, they never stopped printing it on bog paper, which is why lots of The Horned God looks like it's happening at night. Even when Dave Bishop switched to the same shiny paper on internal pages as the cover, the paper stock was still shite.

** Thrillpower Overload claims only twenty new strips debuted between 1980-1986, while the following three years saw a dozen new strips take their bow (p120).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Muon on 09 August, 2017, 11:28:28 AM
Okay, now I'm feeling really guilty about inadvertently starting the "prog 529" threadjack, but my thumbs are itching to clarify my own position and my smartphone's winking at me seductively...

My thing is that I love most of prog 520 to around 700 because that was the first peak of my fandom. Things dropped off for me after around 700, in the era of Fleischer's Harlem Heroes seeming to go on and on and on (what a waste of Steve Dillon's awesomeness, looking back) and that dumb sheep policeman thing. If I force myself to look at it dispassionately, however, I have to admit there was a very gradual period of decline that started around then and accelerated massively in the mid to late 1990s.

Disclaimer: I'm sure a lot of it had to do with identity crises brought on by the growing idea at the time that comics was a cool conversation topic that might get you laid, having to adjust to the demand for more and more colour pages and creators being poached by the Americans. Also the 500s came at the tail-end of a long period of ridiculous consistency and awesomeness. And then there are al the highs that Frank mentions, which probably wouldn't have been possible in the bog paper kids' comic of just a few years before.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: CalHab on 09 August, 2017, 11:58:52 AM
Quote from: Frank on 09 August, 2017, 10:23:54 AM
No, it's because 'it was never the same after they stopped printing it on bog paper'. *

They're right though; apart from Zenith, The Horned God, Necropolis/The Dead Man, Chopper: Song Of The Surfer, Judge Dredd: Revolution, and ABC Warriors: The Black Hole, progs 520-700 were unmitigated pish.

Even outside the ranks of those acknowledged classics, Hicklenton Nemesis, Cinnabar, Indigo Prime, Anderson: Hour Of The Wolf and Triad, Tyranny Rex, Bad Company: The Bewilderness/The Krool Heart, the first Summer Magic, Freaks, Tribal Memories, and Rogue Trooper:War Machine stack up pretty well against endless Ace Trucking Company and GFD Rogue Trooper.**

None of those are Halo Jones Book Three, but then neither are Halo Jones books one or two.


* © Garth Ennis. In truth, they never stopped printing it on bog paper, which is why lots of The Horned God looks like it's happening at night. Even when Dave Bishop switched to the same shiny paper on internal pages as the cover, the paper stock was still shite.

** Thrillpower Overload claims only twenty new strips debuted between 1980-1986, while the following three years saw a dozen new strips take their bow (p120).


It's purely a coincidence that the decline "started" around the same time that the now 40-something guys who frequent this forum discovered girls/drink/whatever.

As a mere youngling still (just) in my thirties, for me the "decline" was around 1993. Mainly because that was when I discovered that Vertigo published comics aimed directly at moody teenagers with bad haircuts and worse taste in music.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 09 August, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
Now this is based in my memory from the time and not a re-read, but the shift to the new size in Prog 520 was definitely a turning point for me.

Slaine was never as good again ( yes even the Horned God - I prefer Slaine The King).
Nemesis was never as good again.
Dredd became far more patchy and never seemed to have a consistent set of artist (until Rebellion took over and fixed that).

Yes we had better paper and more colour (from 589) but the stories just weren't as good.

With a few exceptions - notably Zenith.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2017, 08:09:15 PM
Well this is interesting. I remember a similar discussion way back when I posed the age old question when did the first golden age begin. I seem to recall there was a great diversity of opinion then BUT no one suggested it ended as early as 520... I don't think. If I wasn't on me jollies and living off precious supplies of camping site wi-fi I'd go back and check.

I'm not going to try to prempt my findings from this re-read except to say previous reads, in all forms, would led me to be very surprised if there was a significent drop in form already. That said I do think there is a significent change about to come but in my minds eye at least that will not be at the cost of quality, not yet as least...

... bit I'm getting ahead of myself...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
So I hailed 1985 the nostaligia fueled best year to date of Thrillpower but left a HUGE question dangling, could

1986

top it? As I type I really don't know... so I'll use the memory jogging powers of Barney's Cover Zone to try to unpick the answer.

First up we have the very significent question of does 1986 Dredd top 1985 Dredd. The answer is... YES. This year holds many, many of my all time favourite Dredd's. I mean pick any of 1986's stories drawn by Cam Kennedy, The Warlord, Adrian Cockroach, Falucci Tapes, The Big Sleep, Kenny Who and I could make an argument to find them a slot in my all time top ten. That's before we talk about Atlantis, Dredd Syndrome, Phantom of the Shoppera, Paid with Thanks etc etc ...  oh yeah and the small matter of Letter from a Democrat. Just consistant top of the game stuff.

1986 - 1 vs. 1985 0

So next up lets look at the stinkers, what year in thrillpower is without them. There's less Rogue in 1986, but ACE Trucking unfortunately more than makes up for that. Slaine starts off really bad, but towards the end of the year shows first the green shots of recovery and then after a full flowering back into its majestic best. So yeah barely a terrible thrill in sight, no Mean Team here... so

1986 - 2 vs. 1986 0

What about the absolute cream of the crop. Well Halo Jones Book 3 > Halo Jones Book 2; Strontium Dog recovers from the lows of The Ragnarok Job to the very heights of Rage an absolute stone cold classic... wow so ya know

1986 - 3 vs. 1986 0

Bloomin' heck genuinely wasn't expecting it to be this cut and dry. In the middle order we have Nemesis picking itself up, though not up book 1-4 its really good stuff. Anderson has a great solo story (not as good as 1985's I'd admit) Metalzoic and Bad City Blue all add to the mix and Sooner and Later still holds some of its innovative charm. So yeah 1986 is probably better than 1985 and as such is the new holder of the crown.

BEST YEAR IN THRILLPOWER (to date)

Wow. its as though as the old order changes (see previous comments) they do so at the absolute height of their powers. As if 'classic' 2000ad has achieved all it can and as 1986 draws to a close it hints at the exciting new things to come. As the great 'old' stuff finally reaches its Zenith a new order nervously peaks its head around the corner awaiting its chance to step up to the plate.

1987 will be many things I seem to recall but the one thing it won't be is the same old, same old and I'm really looking forward to how choppery or otherwise these new waters will be...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 10 August, 2017, 12:54:21 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 09 August, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
Dredd became far more patchy and never seemed to have a consistent set of artists...

Apart from the bit where Carlos drew 31 consecutive episodes (and a total of 40 in a 12 month period), you mean?  Obviously I take your point, but there are as many exceptions to this post-520 as there are periods of inconsistency. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2017, 09:12:01 PM
So I'm burning through 1987 and I've hit March. Now I don't know if I'm seeing this 'cos I'm expecting a period of transitition. Maybe I'm casting my expectations onto the reading but post 500 does feel like there's a real shift in the Prog. It will fluculate for a while I suspect but look at whats in the Progs post 500... or rather what's not.

No Mean Team. No Ace Trucking. No Leysers. No Hurst... stuff that dilutes the thrills. Not that all that stuff was automatically bad (though lets be fair!) rather it was of a different tone, aimed at a younger audience. Not a bad thing in and of itself but it gave the Prog an inconsistant tone. That was kinda interesting I'm not saying this was a bad thing, far from it, BUT look at the post 500 stories:

Slaine at the absolute top of its game.

Dredd at the top of its game.

Nemesis at the... well in pretty good shape.

Some excellent Future Shocks largely by Grant Morrison and while played for laughs in many cases with a sharper tone.

Then of course there's the genius that is Bad Company.

Possibly the story though that exemplifies this is The Dead. I've not been Massimo Belardinelli's biggest fan but teamed with Pete Milligan on this frankly inspiringly baffling story he's a million miles away from Blackhawk, Ace Trucking, Meltdown Man. NOT in the quality of the art rather in the story that goes with it and expliots the most from it.

Still a way to go and much to explore AND I think the mixture of tone will be back BUT early in 1987 2000ad sets out its stall for what it will become.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Muon on 22 August, 2017, 02:43:38 PM
Interesting perspective, Colin. I'd never thought of it that way, but with the stories you mention I can see a definite shift away from some of the sillier stuff to slightly more grown-up stuff. That run of stories has quite a trippy, psychedelic feel, from Slaine's weird hallucinations during the ceremony described in loving detail in Slaine the King (and that art!) to Danny Franks' philosophical battlefield musings in Bad Company. And the Krool were like no villains seen in 2000 AD before, with those weird, bubble-blowing eyes of theirs (or whatever the hell they were). And then there's The Dead, which blew my mind. As you say, it was almost the perfect story for Bellardinelli's art.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 August, 2017, 09:23:11 PM
Just struck me that I got to Prog 519 a few nights ago and yet haven't pester you lot with further thoughts on The Dead or any of the fine Dredd's or Future Shocks that mark the end of an era.

I wondered why... is it me, is it you... or is it the Bad Company I keep?

And of course I think its the latter. Bad Company is such a gloriously layered story, but I never quite get my head around why its so very special. I'll try again ... and probably fail.

This time I'm going with the glory of its deception. Its almost Kirbyesque in the way that it wraps some pretty high concept stuff in breathless action tropes. Where as Kirby dressed his mindmelting wondering in the guise of superhero strips Milligan and Ewins wrap theirs up tighly in a good old fashioned Battle war story. Cos lets face it Bad Company isn't a 2000ad story its a Battle story all 2000aded up. Its Darkie's Mob to the max.

But just like Kirby does the thrilling wonder of its outer clothing hide some really meaty ideas and concepts. Bad Company isn't the cliche 'war is bad' story it can be read as it deals with Milligan favs like identity so deftly while blowing our minds up.

Its fitting then that Ewins art has a 'simple' energy and glorious momentum just as Kirby's does. He's possibly at his most Kirbyesque here. Just beautifuly horrible on the eye, so easy and yet exhausting.

See nowt to say about Bad Company at all... and I accept what I've just said might be poppycock and best left not said but what that heck its the best I can get this time round reading Bad Company. The very best thing of it is, just like Kirby, next time I read it I know I'll get something else!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 September, 2017, 08:37:17 AM
Prog 521

So what, huh, surely the Prog to talk about is Prog 520, what with the first really significent format change we've seen in the Galaxy's Greatest (there was that temperary improvement in paper quality in 130ish but that doesn't count surely). That glorious Dredd, which almost seem to be killing off the old days, alas no that's not the Prog to talk about. The Prog to talk about is... well I've given that away already.

The reason its Prog 521 is I can still talk about how much I loved the new format as a kid, it really made the Prog look as special as it felt to me... even if the quality hadn't shift that much, the fact it was bigger and on better paper than anything else made it feel like it was growing up, literally and methaphorically AND by focusing on this issue I can still talk about how glorious is to have Kevin O'Neill on Nemesis... well even if it is the gloriously crazy slice of Torquemada life in Torquemada The God (my father-in-law, a vicar, was giggling away at that the other day apparently - how cool is that!).

I can still talk about how much I felt back in the day The Hit really stepped up Rogue Trooper, I loved it and to be honest it still holds up a lot better than what went before, even if its not well regarded, it looks great and reads a breeze. Hey for a while they turn off Gunnar - thank christ!

No the real reason to talk about this Prog is to discuss Anderson in the second part of 'Hour of the Wolf'. Man this is the single episode of any series that for me symbolised the shift in 2000ad. Its impossible to shake that feeling on reading it again today... look away now if you've not read this classic as this is gonna get spoiler heavy on some specifics.

This episode is just so perfect. The attack on Anderson felt so planned, dangerous and smart. It felt like it was straight out of a 'proper' movie. I really get the specific danger to our beloved judge, as the two sleeper agents really hit her hard in a way that read so pluasible and real. All this while building the bigger Sov plot that we didn't yet understand the signficence of, surrounding the graphic violence with a bigger mystery and intrigue. It is just so tense and perfectly executed.

Speaking of perfectly executed Barry Kitson's art just carries this off so well. Its sharply rendered, carries the action with such energy and you feel the danger and pain Anderson is going through. Man this is one of my all time favourite episodes of any thrill ever.

It also carried the point I made earlier about the Prog really feeling like it had shifted up a gear in levels of story quality and 'maturity' to my 15 year old eyes this one episode exemplified this and made the Prog feel like it was still for me even at my all grown up age!

Mind as I see the return of Mean Team stirring down at me from the shelf I also remember it was a perfectly smooth journey!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 02 September, 2017, 08:32:26 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 02 September, 2017, 08:37:17 AM

(there was that temperary improvement in paper quality in 130ish but that doesn't count surely).

That was before that. 128 was back to bog paper.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 September, 2017, 09:46:53 PM
So just finsihed The Bitch and its such a rambling flabby Stontium Dog 'epic'* it got me thinking about the inconsistancy of the longer Johnnys out there. So I decided to do a very quick review since this was the last one before Final Solution which is a very different beast to whats gone before (one I like by the way). I assumed I'd be  right about how unsuccessful they generally are, with a couple of exceptions... I was wrong of course but the review holds so**:

Journey to Hell: Progs 104 - 118 (1979) - Good - Sharp, crazy no holds barred fun

Portrait of a mutant: Progs 200 - 206, 210-221 (1981) - GREAT - tight, tense and fundamental in getting to the heart of Johnny

Outlaw: Progs 363 - 385 (1984) - Mediocre - loose, flabby and forgettable (except for The Stix)

Max Bubba*** : Progs 445 - 465 (1985) - Poor - unnecessary, blotted and dull - given its context just distracting

Rage: Progs 469 - 489 (1986) - GREATEST - Tense, relentless,, grim and compelling

The Bitch: Progs 505 - 529 (1987) - Medicore - see Outlaw but swap Durham Red for The Stix. It tries to do so much, but does so little and does even get the tense (of all sorts) between Johnny and Red right and the Regan humour is sub Spitting Image, which I saw through even at the time!

So there you have it. A hit rate of only 50% I was that wrong and its certainly fair to say that longer form Strontium Dog is nowhere near as strong and consistent as shorter form Strontium Dog (also see Robo-Hunter and arguably Judge Dredd... hmmm there's one for a later date...). When they are good they do really shine but often (not quite not more often than not!) they feel like 10 part stories doubled in length!

*By epic I mean Strontium Dog story 15 episodes or longer based on nothing more that I always think of 'Journey to Hell' as an 'Epic' and that's 15 parts

** With thanks to Barney for facts and stuff

*** Always think of this as Ragnarok - shows how much attention I've been paying!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 September, 2017, 10:00:30 PM
TBH, I always thought Strontium Dog suited the long-run-of-shorter-stories format better than the 'epic' stories. The get in, get it done, get out sensibility was far more in keeping with the overall concept.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 September, 2017, 10:16:11 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 02 September, 2017, 09:46:53 PM
So there you have it. A hit rate of only 50% I was that wrong BUT its certainly fair to say that longer form Strontium Dog is nowhere near as strong and consistent as shorter form Strontium Dog (also see Robo-Hunter and arguably Judge Dredd... hmmm there's one for a later date...).

That's what that should say. I certainly always think Johnny is best in quick and out before it drags on and while I was suprised I like 50% of the longer form stories the shorter form probably have a hit rate of like 90%!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2017, 09:09:23 PM
Prog 535

Well gotta say its been a while since there's been a contrast quite like that in the Prog. As though to emphasize the shift in the Prog that I seem to think I'm seeing (or making myself see!?!) we get to 535.

It starts off with the prologue to Zenith one of the most confident, smart and thrilling openings to any story the Prog has ever seen. It feels like the most post Watchmen thrill the Prog has had.

Then strangely broken up after only one page by Dredd (almost as though Tharg is showing how little we should care about it) we have Mean Team. One of the poorest strips Tharg has ever sullied his mighty organ with. Its stupidly directionless, full of crass characters and here Bellardinelli's are doesn't serve to build a glorious chaotic backdrop, but rather to emphasize the lack of focus and weak characters in the story. Just horrible.

So yeah the Prog is growing up and developing all these wonderful new mature thoughts.

Alas it this time of change and self discovery comes with zits.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 03 September, 2017, 10:23:30 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2017, 09:09:23 PM
Alas it this time of change and self discovery comes with zits.

Excellent analogy.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 03 September, 2017, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2017, 09:09:23 PM
Prog 535
It starts off with the prologue to Zenith one of the most confident, smart and thrilling openings to any story the Prog has ever seen.

Totally this. Indeed I am hard pressed to think of anything that betters it. Maybe only the first ever Slaine episode and the first episode of Nemesis Book 1.

And these are three of the greatest episodes in the Prog full stop, let alone being the best opening episodes.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 03 September, 2017, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2017, 09:09:23 PM

Then strangely broken up after only one page by Dredd (almost as though Tharg is showing how little we should care about it) we have Mean Team.

The early attempts to run full colour strips, rather than just outside covers/centre spread, were badly hampered by the limitations of printing presses. I used to try and paginate a publication with limited colour pages and it's basically a crap-shoot. You can get the printers to print the whole thing as full colour (and pay for it as such, regardless of how many colour pages you actually have) or you can submit to the vagaries of multi-unit printing.

If you're on a tight, immovable deadline, you'd think your printers would give you a permanent slot on the press, but, noooo... one week, they might put you on the 32-page unit, and your colour pages will fall on pages A, B, C and D. Next week, they'll have put someone else's job on the 32-pager and they'll run your job over two 16-page units and the colours will fall on W, X, Y and Z. The week after, they might only have availability on the 64-page unit and will double up your 32 page job to make it fit on that, and the colour falls will move again.

Which is why, in the early period where Dredd was the only (?) full colour strip, it would move around the comic, or sometimes be broken up with an entire strip in between, or break up a B&W strip, seemingly for no reason.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 September, 2017, 09:50:30 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 September, 2017, 10:43:02 PM

Which is why, in the early period where Dredd was the only (?) full colour strip, it would move around the comic, or sometimes be broken up with an entire strip in between, or break up a B&W strip, seemingly for no reason.

Once again fantastic insight Jim.The weird thing about this though is this is prior to the 6 pages of colour Dredd scattered around the Prog (starts Prog 620?). This is still the era of colour centre pages only. Don't think I've ever seen a strip have one page before Dredd like this. When you look at how packed the Prog is you kinda see why it happened, we get a back inside cover story page. Just really strange.

While I'm here I'd forgotten how many Future Shocks Neil Gaiman did. What's in a Name with lovely Steve Yeowell art (twice in one Prog!) is the one I always remember for some reason (I reckon its the art its not his best FS thats for sure) but he's had 3 before this. Always forget about the rest! Dunno why.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 04 September, 2017, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 September, 2017, 09:50:30 PM

This is still the era of colour centre pages only. Don't think I've ever seen a strip have one page before Dredd like this.

Ah. Curse my failing memory circuits... I thought we were already into the full colour Dredds by then. That is just plain weird!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2017, 09:00:12 PM
Two great things about Prog 541. Firstly much as I don't like to spend too long slagging off bad thrills - thank fuck Mean Team is over. One of my least favourite thrills. To be honest I'm not convinced I've read it since it was first run. I mean I've done many a re-read that's covered it but based on how little I remembered I think this has always been skipped. Bloody awful rambling mess, no heart, no direction and dull beyond measure. I mean christ that big baddies thing. A big nothing and I think I'm meant to be excited when The Master is revealed as ... well jusyt a big scary monster. Jez. Bloody awful striped saved only by the fact its more memorible, just, than Angel!

Second great thing read picture Nemesis the Hedgehog. One of  my all time fav reader pictures. 'Maker of footprints in your pansies" Just great well done Mark Tucker of Surrey!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2017, 09:03:11 PM
Oh and a cheeky second post to mark Universal Soldier ending in Prog 543. Always had a real soft spot for this thrill, always forget how short it is. Okay so the boardroom politics is a little submillsian and hamfisted but I love it. Will Simpson's art is a little clumsy and over worked, but I still love it. The concept is a little light and stretched, but I still love it.

No sure why but I really enjoy this tight, vicious little story.

Alas as I recall its return doesn't hold up, but looking forward to finding out.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 05 September, 2017, 09:37:32 PM
Didn't the return feature some Fleetway character they were trying to revive with art by Brett Ewins?  Sultry female, great big guns and boxy hover cabs?  Am I thinking of the right one?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2017, 09:52:24 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 05 September, 2017, 09:37:32 PM
Didn't the return feature some Fleetway character they were trying to revive with art by Brett Ewins?  Sultry female, great big guns and boxy hover cabs?  Am I thinking of the right one?

Oh I'm getting confused here maybe - I'm thinking Kelly's Eye?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 05 September, 2017, 10:01:39 PM
The second Universal Soldier is the Simon Coleby one in the late 600s - then there's the Kelly's Eye one, which spins off into Kelly's Eye itself.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 06 September, 2017, 07:14:31 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 05 September, 2017, 09:37:32 PM
Didn't the return feature some Fleetway character they were trying to revive with art by Brett Ewins?  Sultry female, great big guns and boxy hover cabs?  Am I thinking of the right one?
Isn't the Night/Beyond/Below Zero? I also love the first series of Universal Soldier. Mostly for the art.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 06 September, 2017, 07:51:11 AM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 06 September, 2017, 07:14:31 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 05 September, 2017, 09:37:32 PM
Didn't the return feature some Fleetway character they were trying to revive with art by Brett Ewins?  Sultry female, great big guns and boxy hover cabs?  Am I thinking of the right one?
Isn't the Night/Beyond/Below Zero? I also love the first series of Universal Soldier. Mostly for the art.

No it's Ewins and Universal Soldier/Kelly's Eye (both? There's some overlap, and when I read it a couple of years back it was chunky stylised stuff but for all that it was legible unlike the other 90's stuff running alongside...).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 September, 2017, 08:56:25 PM
Man we are heading into interesting times in the Prog.

Zenith hurls itself towards its thrilling finale and Prog 545 has one of my favourite panels of 2000ad art (there are a number across the Zenith books, he's mighty that Yeowell) specifcally the final page of the prog, four vertical panels:

1. Ruby's rain soaked terror
2. Masterman chilling grin over the fried remains of Siadwell (after his magnificently brief heroic charge)
3. the crying helmet as the Red Dragon is tossed aside
4. Who's Next - such sadism.

Just perfect in one of the true 2000ad great.

In the same issue Oz - a Megaepic I'm not overly fond of and as such really intrigued to read starts. Followed in Prog 546 with the start if Two Torquemadas, which for me, as I recall really returns Nemesis to the top if its game after a very strong lull - we'll see.

All this and the promise of the return of Bad Company, while Milligan treats us to Freaks in the interim... but I'll be back to talk about that one next time...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 11 September, 2017, 12:48:14 PM
I think you will need to explain that "lull" comment regarding Nemesis. Torquemada the God preceded book 7 and ok it wasn't  at the same level, but it was only short. And before that you have Book 6 which was magnificent - one of the best things in the Prog ever IMO.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2017, 10:14:28 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 11 September, 2017, 12:48:14 PM
I think you will need to explain that "lull" comment regarding Nemesis.

Whoops...

First when I say very strong lull - I didn't mean the lull was very strong, as in its dip in quality was great, rather even though its had a lull it remained very strong as a strip. Its been all great as I've said before BUT...

... it is a lull...

Here's the proof*

Book 1 -4 - all stunningly good in different exotic ways

Book 5 - The weakest to date. Still a great thrill but 4 episodes too long where previous books simply didn't waste a panel

Book 6 - If I'm ever to hail a story which is basically exposition on a beach a classic this will surely be it (as I said ... or at least the gist of that down the thread) BUT it is still exposition on a beach and while I love it not quite of the standard of 1 - 4.

Torq The God - Almost perfect BUT alas in failing to be so exposes its weakness. The camp, off the cough humour plays brilliantly with the very very dark themes its toying with. But alas it is toying and while the juxaposition does really work it leaves you wondering at the gaps this leaves as you suspend belief in the characters to roll with the fun.

Book 7 - I think a return to greatness... but we'll see...

So you see while I've enjoyed it all immensely I'd stand by the fact that books 5 - 6 1/2 are a 'very strong' lull compared to 1 - 4. the emphasis on 'very strong' being on story quality not the scale of lull.

*So when I say proof, yes I mean just more of me whittering!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 12 September, 2017, 07:38:22 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2017, 10:14:28 PM
Book 5 - The weakest to date. Still a great thrill but 4 episodes too long where previous books simply didn't waste a panel

I'd say it's the best one since Book 1! (I'd definitely rate it above 2 & 3.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 12 September, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2017, 10:14:28 PM
Book 6 - If I'm ever to hail a story which is basically exposition on a beach a classic this will surely be it (as I said ... or at least the gist of that down the thread) BUT it is still exposition on a beach and while I love it not quite of the standard of 1 - 4.

I love book 6. It might be people standing around talking on a beach, but it's not any old beach, it's a beach at the end of the world. And it's not just any old conversation - I just love the way the Terminators go back to pledging their allegiance to Torquemada. And the art is just fabulous. I have always marvelled at how Bryan Talbot used to get expressions out of Torquemada's mask.

I was disappointed with Book 7 at the time. It felt like a real change. And the best bit in it riffs on book 6 i.e. [spoiler] how our Torquemada turns the original Torquemada's followers, such that they pledge allegiance to him.[/spoiler]

But it was still good...the strip goes a bit downhill afterwards in my opinion. Having just read volumes 2 and 3 back to back, it becomes clear that it didn't really have anything different to say. At the time I didn't notice, because it was years between books (seems unbelievable really....er hang on...ABC Warriors, GreySuit, Slaine etc seem to also have long periods between books).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 12 September, 2017, 10:29:06 AM
The amazing thing about this is that I have absolutely no recollection of Books 5 and 6. Seven sticks in the mind for Hicklenton's crazed art but I would've sworn blind that Bryan Talbot only drew Book 4.

Need to grab a reprint of the later stuff from somehere.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 12 September, 2017, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 12 September, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
I just love the way the Terminators go back to pledging their allegiance to Torquemada.

One of my favourite scenes in the entire series: I always enjoy Torquemada's victories. Pat is careful to keep Torquemada a potent foe, and you can tell he absolutely loved writing the character.

My reason for preferring Bk 5 (&6) to 2, 3 and 4 is partially because Bk 5 returns the focus to Termight, and I feel the story is at its best when Termight – past, present or future - looms large. Torquemada is the best thing in the series (in any series!), and Termight serves as a kind of extension and reflection of his gloriously warped beliefs. It goes without saying that I rate 'Torquemada the God' very highly.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 September, 2017, 09:30:12 PM
Damnit I want to spin out this Nemesis discussion so much more as its really interesting. I always thought books 1 - 4 were the given as best Nemesis and its glorious to see how wrong I was (while being so right of course!) but alas in just the two progs I've read tonight I have much to comment on.

Firstly Freaks ends. I've always held this simple story in very high regard and it hold up re-read after re-read. More honest and straightforward than The Dead. Heartwarming and insightful. Poor Cuddles though. Love the episode were he is 'exposed' so much. A forgotten classic this one.

In Prog 547 we get Boo Cook making his debut in the Nerve Centre, we know what happened to him but in this Prog and the next we get two artists on Oz that I don't think we see again. Both Behrer and Spud and K Edwards produce lovely episodes of Dredd, but as far as I recall don't show up again. Don't know what happened there?

New Nemesis is as bonkers fun as I remember and christ Zenith is so great.

Top class Proggage!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 12 September, 2017, 11:42:57 PM
Pretty sure Paul Behrer (geddit?) was a pseudonym Garry Leach used more than once.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 September, 2017, 06:01:38 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 12 September, 2017, 11:42:57 PM
Pretty sure Paul Behrer (geddit?) was a pseudonym Garry Leach used more than once.

Looking at the art that defo would make sense.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 13 September, 2017, 07:08:49 AM
"Spud" and "K Edwards"?

Sounds like something for the "Things that went over my head" thread!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 13 September, 2017, 08:27:39 AM

The stories credited to K Edwards are clearly the work of Will Simpson, who I understand is afflicted by Irishness.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 13 September, 2017, 01:37:02 PM
Quote from: Frank on 13 September, 2017, 08:27:39 AM
The stories credited to K Edwards are clearly the work of Will Simpson, who I understand is afflicted by Irishness.

Double post in a retroactive attempt at nuance: the colour spreads look like they were coloured by Leach, the black and white art looks like Simpson being inked by another hand*

I'm not sure if Simpson was working with Leach at this point, or if Tharg told him to pop his penciled pages in the post and let Burt worry about who was going to paint them.


* Leach and/or Elliot. There's another Chopper in the Cursed Earth strip credited to Simpson alone that looks like it's been touched by the hand of Leach too. By the time of Cookie and CURSE FARGO AND HIS SPAWN! Simpson's obviously keeping the Crayolas all to himself.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Arkady on 14 September, 2017, 10:41:01 AM
Frank.

You're a bloody good writer and you clearly know your stuff. Please can you take over the defunct Dredd Reckoning blog?

'K thanks bye.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 September, 2017, 10:24:29 PM
So Prog 549 kinda says all about why I'm not a big fan of Oz. Chopper crosses the Cursed Earth and Wagner and Grant know they have to try to show how hard that is... but don't. Chopper fights some big, wonderful bird thingies and when that gets a bit muh just have him drive his board through them. I mean it looks bloody fantastic, but just lacks conviction.

I know Wagner and Grant ended their writing partnership on Dredd at the end of this and maybe you can see why beyond the decision whether to kill Marlon or not.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 September, 2017, 09:06:58 PM
Prog 554

You know I used to love the 'chrome' logo. I really did. It was my logo. I thought it was my favourite.

Then they made a key ring off it (I think it was the glorious Planet Replicas?) and I was like so all over that... then I looked at it... and looked again. Then I looked at some Progs... then I realised ...

Roger Moore, magnificent man though he is, isn't the best James Bond and the 'chrome' logo is far from them best*.

Tharg got it right. Stick it on the fire Green Bounce.

*Tom Baker is still the best Doctor Who mind.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 September, 2017, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
So I hailed 1985 the nostaligia fueled best year to date of Thrillpower but left a HUGE question dangling, could

1986

top it? ...
Bloomin' heck genuinely wasn't expecting it to be this cut and dry.

BEST YEAR IN THRILLPOWER (to date)


So there we have it to date 1985 was topped by 1986 which leds nicely into...

1987

And you know what the momentum might just about be continuing... might. 1987 was all about a changing of the guard. I speculated it might be at the turn of the year (so to speak) and it is, possible even more pronounced that I'd speculated.

Its the year of Pete Milligan, the year of Zenith, the year of Barry Kitson, the year of Democracy Now!, the year of PJ, the hour of the wolf. The year of Hicklenton on Nemesis and Fabry on Slaine, both returned to their former glories. By George its highs match the highs of any year they really do. BUT with new added second generation zing and edge. Its 2000ad truly hitting its teenage growth spurt a few years year.

Okay so it has one stinking low in Mean Team, but we get that every year and while Mean Team for me is as bad a thrill as I can remember (thus excluding Ange... oh whatever that thing with the plane and the chappie and the shoulder thingie was called) there is sooooo much good stuff.

So its clear then, right... well no not quite. See I can't quite shake the feeling that while these new brash johnny come latelys are shaking things up is quite glorious style, and some old wound soldiers* are stepping up to the plate to match, a couple of the classics slip a little.

I've already said Strontium Dog has a bit of a stinker that takes up about 1/2 the year, the shorter stories that follow are an improvement, particularly The Royal Affair - A Sorry Case being pretty weak and The Rammy a bit middling over all its not a good year for Johnny.

Dredd also if I'm honest is a little past the absolute soaring heights of the last couple of years. I mean there are some absolute stonkers, one of which I've mentioned and Raggedy Man, The Bug, The Return of Death Fist, The Beating Heart and of course Taxidermist are up there with the best of any year its just not as consistantly good as it has been for a couple of years prior. Its possible that I'm coloured by Oz starting... but I'll come back to that next year, its not a fav of mine, but I honestly think we're past a peak (one that will return I should say but that's for the future.).

So yeah 1987 soooo close and when its good and I'm looking at you Bad Company, Zenith and Anderson it is so very very good. I'm just not 100% its as good as 1986... but it just might be...

Damnit all this change has left me befuddled!

* Well Anderson in Hour of the Wolf as much as I love it, and I do, its on a pa with some of the excellence that has gone before in a strip that to date hasn't missed a beat. On re-read its clear that Anderson has been consistantly good in a way that few strips match.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 October, 2017, 08:44:15 PM
So befuddled I've taken over 3 weeks off... well of course only off from my 2000ad re-read so I can read other comics (see What's Everyone Reading for my brief befuddlement with Love and Rockets - don't worry it has a happy ending). But I've now finally wrapped up 1987 with a read of the Summer Special (which was interesting but not that special) and the two 1988 annuals.

Both annuals have some pretty top quality stuff, glorious McCarthy (2000ad) and Higgins (Dredd) Dredd, so other nice bits and bobs but so packed with reprint and quizzes and what not that they were slight reads (doing a re-read means I don't need to re-read the repeats so soon and I have Daily Dredds on my reading list so not spoiling those either). As such I've burned through them. The reprinted stuff is pretty high quality. Particularly the Hammerstein War Years stuff in the 2000ad annual but doesn't make for much value these days. Still what little you get is getting better in 2000ad and almost maintaining quality in the Dredd Annual so no real complaints.

And finally we get to 1988 ... if memory serves the ongoing quality bubble might burst sometime in the this year... lets see...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: feathers on 10 October, 2017, 03:40:32 PM
I definitely found 88/89 significantly different from what went before - looking forward to reading your thoughts!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 October, 2017, 09:26:21 PM
So 1988 begins and even before I've opened a Prog (well that's not strictly true but I couldn't be bothered to post this when I first thought this) I've a comment to mither you lot with.

While the cover to 555, the first of 1988 is a classic and I've already dismissed my once favoured chrome log as a failure I'm also not too keen on the early version of the 'classic' logo. In it's original lumpy top left hand corner box it feels a bit solid and obstructive. Just look at Torquemada's face on the cover of 557 (I'll even do a linkie to it below), he's really not happy having it there is he!

http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?choice=557&Comic=2000ad (http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?choice=557&Comic=2000ad)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 October, 2017, 07:53:15 AM
So 1988 starts off with a bit of a confident stance, chest thrust forward and the prog showing of its best features. Its so confident, new logo and all that strangely there's barely a new story to be seen to draw folks in to the new year and new design.

That said the ongoing stories deliever quite a punch and I'm sure even if you are dropped in you'd feel pretty compelled to come back...

....SPOILERS!!!!

Thoth gets the chop.
Danny meets Kano
and Oz has one of its best mini stories as Chopper meets Cookie (even though I'm pretty down on Oz I do love this bit)

And there is a sprinkling of something new and back in the day (I'm going to return to this in a seperate post...) it was pretty magnificent and I remember even as a seasoned reader of both UK and US comics it blow me away.

Yep so strong is 1988 opening line-up Tharg had to limit us to four stories to avois thrillpower overload .... and he couldn't keep it around for long.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 October, 2017, 08:17:18 AM
Prog 555 - Art of its time

Okay a one two punch with the posts this morning as I wanted to pull this out. Back in 1988 the art in the first Prog of 1988 was just so special. I adored it, it felt so fresh, powerful and agressive. Ewins and McCarthy (J) is a given, and I exempt them from what I'm about to say.

Elsewhere we have the magnificent John Hicklenton on Nemesis, Will Simpson on Dredd and the newly crafted Bisley Droid on ABC Warriors. Just an incredible explosion of ink and as a 16 year old it blow me away. I remember slavishly copying art from all three of these artists in a deluded hope that they're genius would rub off on me....

...but...

...and I'm nervous saying this...

.... reading now, it ain't all that good....

Now clearly that's said for effect and to get attention, don't worry I won't pepper my post with tiny hard to read postscripts though. Rather I'll admit its bloody magnificently stylish and powerful stuff and to its target audience (me back in the day) it just works. Its problem for me now is two fold.

Firstly the style can somewhat wash away the storytelling, given Will Simpson's career he at least improved on that I think we can say! I find Hicklenton's art particularly guilty of that, and as I've said I do adore his time on Nemesis and his art is big part of that. Key moments however are cramped into busy cluttered panels. The characters acting is so meladramtic as to be distracting at time (though given what's going on in Nemesis maybe that gets a pass!). But yeah all three artists could be accused... okay I'll take ownership of that... I accuse all three artists of style over substance.

Secondly I think, largely because of the above, its dated really badly. Here I'm particularly looking at Bisley on ABC. Looking at it now it just feels so of its time. It had such impact that it feels frozen in its historical place and outdated and clumsy. In many ways, its a year or two ahead of the same thing happening on American comics. sure McFarlane is throwing little lines all over Spidey at this point (I think) but Leifeld and Lee, who will have a similar impact on US mainstream comics are still awaiting their call to Mutant arms. They will make a similar impression on my teenage eye, though their impact on comics will transcent their images and I find the art here (in Prog 1988) far better now than I find the work of McFarlene, Lee and Leifeld, which I now find pretty unreadable if I'm honest. But yeah I see parallels.

So there we go I've said, Prog 1988 had magnificent, fantastic, bloody awful art!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 14 October, 2017, 11:33:53 AM
The main problem I had with Hicklenton's art on the Two Torquemada's was it was so different to what had gone before. I think we had been spoilt with O' Neill's magnificent design of the Termight, the Blitzspear and the Terminators* and Talbot's magnificent gothic feel.

For me Hicklenton's storytelling became even more of an issue on Deathbringer, where there were too many similar looking characters which spoilt the flow for me as I was constantly flicking back ( on my recent reread) to work out who was who (eg. she's the one with the horizontal stripes etc).

* you will note I haven't included Nemesis in the "magnificent design" category. I have always thought his neck was bizarre- something Hicklenton takes to extremes far beyond O'Neill's original design.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 16 October, 2017, 03:58:38 PM
I agree on finding Hicklenton's work on Nemesis Book IX hard to follow, especially in terms of which character was which, but to be honest this is overwhelemed by the tone of his work. His versions of both Torquemadas in Book VII are just so magnificently grotesque that it shines through any clutter or sloppiness with storytelling. As pointed out his version of Nemesis's neck is a thing to behold in itself. I don't how much it was his choice as editor, but I do applaud Burton for getting the likes of Hicklenton and Harrison in to shake things up.

There's no getting around it - the shift in artists played a major part in making 1988 something of a transition year for the Prog. Really curious to see how Colin assesses the year by the time he gets to the end!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 October, 2017, 09:24:44 PM
A few quicks thoughts on early 1988

1. The brilliant line-up at the start of the year ends all to quickly, with both Nemesis Book VII and Bad Company - Bewilderness ending in Prog 557, just three progs in.

2. Love the the Star Scans of the Dark Judges by Garry Leach (Though I had to look up who did them as I can never remember!)

3. The brilliant line-up at the start of the year continues as Nemesis Book VIII and Zenith Prologues arrive

4. I love everything about David Roach's art on Purity's Story except the way he draws Purity - damnit!

5. Is that Stephen Watson's first letter in Prog 559? If only there was some way to tell!?!

6. I can never make my mind up about SMS's art, but Brendan McCarthy's on the Judda storyline is some of his best ever.

7. I've always had a soft spot for Hap Hazzard, even if the story is brilliantly realised (not the art, the art is great) but I love the slice of life nature of it.

8. I forgot how quickly Simon Bisley's art developed and by his return in 563 he's already come on in leaps and bounds.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 17 October, 2017, 09:53:12 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 October, 2017, 09:24:44 PM
Brendan McCarthy's on the Judda storyline is some of his best ever.

I was just re-reading Oz yesterday (I'm painting up some Judda miniatures and was looking for some reference material) and it's striking how great a visual design the Judda are. They're a perfect example of taking a concept that on paper is moderately cool and pushing it to an entirely different level through artistic interpretation. It's ironic that, despite being fanatical clone-cultists, every Judda is distinctive and original, and their weird tribal uniform variations hint at their own idiosyncracies (I love the one with the enormous horns you see at the start of part 15.) McCarthy said he wanted them to have a Kirby look - I think there's a bit of Ditko in there too though, as the way McCarthy draws their energy shields echoes Dr. Strange's mystic ones.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Muon on 18 October, 2017, 03:26:50 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 16 October, 2017, 03:58:38 PM
I agree on finding Hicklenton's work on Nemesis Book IX hard to follow, especially in terms of which character was which, but to be honest this is overwhelemed by the tone of his work. His versions of both Torquemadas in Book VII are just so magnificently grotesque that it shines through any clutter or sloppiness with storytelling. As pointed out his version of Nemesis's neck is a thing to behold in itself. I don't how much it was his choice as editor, but I do applaud Burton for getting the likes of Hicklenton and Harrison in to shake things up.

There's no getting around it - the shift in artists played a major part in making 1988 something of a transition year for the Prog. Really curious to see how Colin assesses the year by the time he gets to the end!

Completely agree with this. I wasn't always sure what was going on in Hicklenton's Nemesis strips, but they always had a brutal, gory fascination to them that had me hooked. It was like he'd genuinely tapped into an alternate universe where everything was even more grimy than the one we had here and where weirdly contorted creatures punched the shit out of each other and sprayed black, oily blood all over the place. I remember going through a spell during Nemesis Book 9 when I thought of Hicklenton as my "favourite" artist. I also remember liking Simon Harrison's art on Strontion Dog. Not sure what I'd make of these things now, but that's how I felt at the time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 October, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
So Nemesis Book VIII - Purity's Story concludes with Prog 565 and it certainly makes for an interesting addition to the Nemesis saga. The inclusion of David Roach's art makes these feel suitably different, but at heart its a great Nemesis romp, almost like a band reforming and playing a greatest hits set.

Interestingly the big trouble it has for me is the thing that made it stand out when I was reading this back in the day. Nemesis revelations at the end read to 16 year old Colin (its target audience its best to remember) like a super cool, deep, insightful revelation. I remember it blew my teen mind. To tried grumpy 45 year old Colin (maybe its typical reader these days) on the 78787 re-read of the saga it feels like a little unnecessary highlighting of what we knew already. It feels like Pat Mills underlining in red pen, three times the key points of what he's been doing with the strip all along. To be honest a proto modern Mills seeming not able to trust the intelligence of his audience (whatever he says in interviews). Made worse by the mind wiping, being a nod and a wink to the reread - nudge nudge this is just between us right, but leaves it all consequence free.

Still immensely enjoyable and glad it exists, just not as relevant to its audience after 30 years... not entirely surprisingly!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 October, 2017, 09:18:18 AM
Oh and meant to say YAH! Tyranny Rex starts in this issue as well. Must mean another attempt at Soft Bodies isn't too far off!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 October, 2017, 07:52:21 PM
So well while I was mostly trying to reflect on how much I bloomin' love the first Tyranny Rex story I kept getting distracted. I mean the first Tyranny story is fan... bloody help how much work is work is Steve Dillon doing in the Prog at the moment, I mean in Prog 567 he has 2 1/2 thrills, in 568, 2 thrills... but still Tyranny Rex is Sup... actually I'm enjoying the race in Oz much more than I remember, its genuinely exciting... as is the first Tyrann... shame about Stone Killers, its pretty flat for a Strontium Dog story...

... still at the end of the day when a story is just so fun, with such a sharp edge of humour and looks so great and has a killer concept and execution for all the great (and not so great) distractions in the Prog during this period you can't get away from the fact that Tyranny's debut is really a fantastically superb thrill.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 October, 2017, 08:23:12 AM
Oz

So we crossed the line in Prog 570 and the latest Dredd Mega Epic speeds to a conclusion with a gloriously rendered 10 page final part. man I love Jim Baikie. And with it we get the end of Wagner and Grants partnership if legend is to be believed (though nosing ahead on Barney (which I rarely do, I've been good on this re-read) as I thought they are at least credited for the next few epsiodes) theres much to discuss and that's before I get to rating my Dredd epics to this point which I feel like doing at some point soon (mind maybe I should wait for Necropolis?).

Anyway Oz in and of itself is a Mega Epic I'm pretty down on, but have to say I've enjoyed the second half quite a lot. The start rambles at points and is too rushed at others (that Cursed Earth crossing just didn't work) but as the two story elements collide each on its own merits really works. The Judda storyline is fantastic and its conclusion does feel truly epic without needing to blow up Mega City One as it the fall back these days.

Chopper's challenge for Surf 10 is suitably gripping, a real thrill ride and I do really like the ending, a little clumsy with Dredd himself to serve its aims, but it works cos I wanted it too.

As is often said the two storyline do feel horroribly crushed together and both would have been served so much better by standing alone but hey ho. So yeah not the best Mega Epic but not as bad as I remember, certainly the second half.

Which is a shame as I was going to use this as a platform to say it might have marked a fitting explaination as to why Mr Wagner and Mr Grant decided to part as things might have been getting a little stale. I'm certainly not enjoying  anywhere near as much since Stontium Dog since Rage (well actually the story after, but Rage makes a better reference point)! and arguibly Dredd hasn't been quite as strong... nothing is bad but changing things up certainly seems to bring results as I recall.

I'm looking forward to seeing how by breaking up the partnership, both have gained all they can from it and each is able to serve their key strips better apart. My Prediction (based on many reads, but this re-read is certainly providing revaluation of a lot of stuff, so lets see) is Dredd will get back to its very best of the next couple of years. I love Grant's ending to Strontium Dog, Anderson of course continues to excell and actually gets better. Lets see if this holds...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 31 October, 2017, 12:57:34 PM
I find that Grant's solo Dredd work of this period really sticks out as being unlike the partnership work - he seems to be a lot more cynical with his citizens, and is way more keen on painting the Judge system as more overtly evil. Sometimes this produces the staggeringly haunting 'John Cassavetes is Dead', and other times it ends up with the heavy-handed 'Politics', which kind of interrupts the flow of the 'Dredd softens his position on Democracy' thing that had been and continues to build around the time.

Basically, Grant's Dredd stuff just isn't as good as Wagner's, but his solo Stront and Anderson stuff is largely excellent. In my opinion.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 31 October, 2017, 01:01:11 PM
Meanwhile, a controversial opinion on Tyranny Rex:
Steve Dillon's art, excellent as it is, doesn't fit the tone of Smith's writing. Dillon's storytelling is so clear that it gets in the way of the fact that the plots, even the early ones, don't really make that much sense. Simpson's Soft Bodies work may have made that strip even less comprehensible, but it makes the overall mood that much more weird and disturbing.

But Dillon's design of the character is proper awesome - and presumably explains why she's appeared on more cover montages than she's had actual episodes of strip.*


*I haven't counted this.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 31 October, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 31 October, 2017, 12:57:34 PM
Basically, Grant's Dredd stuff just isn't as good as Wagner's, but his solo Stront and Anderson stuff is largely excellent. In my opinion.

Yes that's probably true. But then again there probably isn't anyone whose Dredd is as good as Wagner's. 

For me, Grant basically is the Anderson writer.

And Grant's Strontium Dog was perfectly good until he decided to kill him off.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 October, 2017, 07:40:48 PM
Yeah I find it really interesting the way Grant's Dredd has rarely lived up to his work on some other characters, Anderson in particular but wider afield his Batman was astonishing. He did some great stories solo Dredd but not with the cosistancy of his work on some others.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 November, 2017, 10:19:51 PM
Yah know I really don't hate The Hit(s) Rogue stories. I mean okay these things are all relative and I really don't get on with Rogue Trooper but I'm enjoying it much more (as I always do) than the Nu Earth stuff. Its far from classic and it can't just be the great Steve Dillon art as Rogue has always been served by great art.

Why I enjoy it more than the stuff before... it feels more coherant. I think the Angel of Death thing is a good way for a character as dull as Rogue to go. He always was a bit souless. Hey it makes so much more sense than the wonderful world building hampered by hacked scripting of the previous stuff...

... well okay until he just walks into the super blindly gun mega weapon that bit was right out of the GFD school of writing!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 03 November, 2017, 03:23:09 PM
The Hit series really ought to have worked, but somehow it just didn't. Rogue as an assassin trying to kill all the individuals keeping the war going is great motivation. Mixing up the settings with each Hit was a lot of fun. Steve Dillon is 100% amazing on the series, and some of Geller's plotting and banter was solid comics.

But I never cared in the way I did on the Nu Earth stuff.

Theory 1: Nu Earth as a setting allowed the strip to feel like so many WW1 and 2 war comics that had the bonus of showing the 'ordinary soldiers' point of view that gave readers an emotional connection to the best Rogue stories.

Theory 2: The Hit stories never showed us how/why the people on the Hit list were so key at keeping the war alive (or at least, ruining soldiers' lives), we readers (and Rogue himself) were just told to take it on face value, and this meant the ending of each story, when the target was killed, failed to resonate.

Cinnabar ended up so much better than any of the hits in part because it fixed those two problems.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 November, 2017, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 03 November, 2017, 03:23:09 PM

Theory 2: The Hit stories never showed us how/why the people on the Hit list were so key at keeping the war alive (or at least, ruining soldiers' lives), we readers (and Rogue himself) were just told to take it on face value, and this meant the ending of each story, when the target was killed, failed to resonate.


This is definitely true and the series biggest failing. The first Hit got closest to showing the target as significant with the iron grip over the people he ruled. Yet it still didn't really resonate with the wider confliict. By Hit 3 the super scientist had a big shiny light good from what we can tell... hmmm.

Still the NuEarth setting had been mined to death - effective though it was GFD filled it with simply wonderful ideas but failed execute them well (no pun intended... well maybe a little). His ideas and the concept of the Hit realised more clinically and we'd of had a ... well hit on our hands... rather than the near miss we get.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 03 November, 2017, 06:04:46 PM
I think for me, the biggest issue was that it was quite a sudden jump.  We had a bit of an evolution with the re-gene story, introducing the idea of it being a galaxy wide conflict, but the idea that there was something behind it all ....  Felt very much like a conspiracy theory bolt on.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 November, 2017, 10:06:11 PM
Some quick thoughts as we reach the middle of 1988.

1. When do we get 5 thrills back. I do not remember the whole four thrills a Prog thing going on this long. I mean we get extra Dredd now and again but...

2. Mind I guess if we are going to have 4 thrills only Tharg is doing it for the the good of our health. The thrill in mid 1988 are pretty much exceptional.

3. I really like those early Tales of the Dog House stories. The two Colin MacNeil ones are immense fun.

4. I'm always surprised that Summer Magic is so short, only 7 episodes... wow!

5. Mind it packs so much in that short time, what a great thrill

6. I always felt that Bad Company II was good but not in the league of Bad Company...

7. I was wrong (again!)

8. I run hot and cold on Bisley on ABC Warriors

9. And Simon Harrison has all the challenging problems when he starts Strontium Dog...

10... the difference is I adore Simon Harrison on Strontium Dog with a consistancy Bisley can only dream of... funny ole thing art huh!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 08 November, 2017, 07:32:39 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 06 November, 2017, 10:06:11 PM
6. I always felt that Bad Company II was good but not in the league of Bad Company...

7. I was wrong (again!)

Popular opinion seems to agree with what you originally thought - that BCII is good, but BCI is the standout - but for years I've been arguing that BCII is at least as good as BCI, and in my opinion, superior. The art's even better - wilder, more exotic. The characters are more interesting - sorry Thrax, much as I love you, De Racine and Protoid have you beat - and their frequently grand guignol fates have even greater impact. It's cleverer, weirder, has a better plot (has a plot full stop), and wears its influences less obviously on its sleeve (or rather, it's influences are much less conventional for a war comic than BCI, which, wonderful though it is, is in obvious debt at times to 'Apocalypse Now'.) And the ending is up there with Song of the Surfer, Revere and Killing Time as the very best 2000AD's ever seen.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 08 November, 2017, 08:56:04 PM
Having recently re-read Bad Company in the TPB, I would say series 1 is definitely my favourite and everything else is diminishing returns. (Bit like ABC Warriors then!).

I also seem to remember Rogue Trooper being immensely popular at the time, possibly 2nd only to Dredd. I never quite understood that, but I think liked it well enough, just not as much as Stront, Slaine, Nemesis etc.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 November, 2017, 09:22:22 PM
So the thing I never think I got on with with BC 2... and when I say get on with that needs to have the context of thinking it was bloody great, just not as bloody great as BC 1 ... was that the characters felt a little gimmacky, a little forced, in a way the original series character, however much they were just as odd, felt more naturally so. The Bad Company 2 felt like it was trying to out do Bad Company 1. I think in this reading I've seen past that (even if it might be true) and agree pretty much 100% with what Greg says. 

Either way both are absolutely fascinating reads.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 09 November, 2017, 09:29:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 November, 2017, 09:22:22 PM
agree pretty much 100% with what Greg says. 

I'll join your Good Company.

The ending to BC II was a top 10 2000AD moment for me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 09 November, 2017, 09:33:00 AM
Quote from: Link Prime on 09 November, 2017, 09:29:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 November, 2017, 09:22:22 PM
agree pretty much 100% with what Greg says. 

The ending to BC II was a top 10 2000AD moment for me.

And what should have been a perfect end to the series full-stop.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 10 November, 2017, 09:54:55 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 09 November, 2017, 09:33:00 AM
Quote from: Link Prime on 09 November, 2017, 09:29:32 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 November, 2017, 09:22:22 PM
agree pretty much 100% with what Greg says. 

The ending to BC II was a top 10 2000AD moment for me.

And what should have been a perfect end to the series full-stop.

The thoughts of any possible sequel to BC II would make Johnny Alpha turn in his grave.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 November, 2017, 09:35:07 AM
I have to be honest I've enjoyed all the BC sequals with the exception of BC 2002. I'm a big BIG fan of Kano which just feels like a natural extension of the war story tropes which so underpinned the first series. Its a brilliant and typically Pete Milligan take on the old soldier not being able to adjust to civilian life.

I also really enjoyed First Casualties - though I do want to re-read it at some point. People seemed to struggle with the whole everyone is back thing without seemingly getting both the title and the line in the last part (as I recall as I say I do need to reread it) that the first casulty of war is truth is so fundamental to my reading of what Pete Milligan was doing.

Anyway you can often tell great 2000ad stories by the diversity of opinions about them. The bad ones no one really cares about!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 November, 2017, 10:11:07 AM
Anyway to other matters.

Before I get to my main thing here I just want to quickly ask is Slaine - The Killing Field the best 3 page 2000ad story ever? I mean I accept there's probably not too much competition but its just so effective and beautiful in its grim ugliness.

Oh and I love Steve Parkhouse so and I do like Jim McCarthy* but the last two parts of Full Mental Jacket so that Steve Parkhouse and Jim McCarthy* just doesn't work.

Anyway to my main point. A.B.C. Warriors - The Black Hole ... hmmm .... man I used to love this, I mean really love it, as in think it was better than the original run of the strip. Now... and don't get me wrong I still really enjoyed it... but its really lost some of its sheen. I think a big part of that is I'm 'growing' out of Simon Bisley's art. In the same way as I've grown older I've come to love Jack Kirby or Ron Smith, I've stopped liking The Biz so much as I now can hardly look at Jim Lee's work.

That's cool, tastes change, but what's more signifcent here is the fact that the art is so defining in how I think about the story. Normally I think of myself as more writer focused than art focused. It varies a little and its not as if I don't think the art is important, its just I think great art can't save a naff story and naff art doesn't destroy a great story. Yet here the art is so BIG so significent at times the story can get a little lost.

Which is a shame as its a good one, a very good one. Mills at his best. The A.B.C. Warriors at their most chaotic and interesting before they became all KHAOTIC and dull (they do get better again luckily). Its clear though good as the story is, interesting and atypical as the characteration, probably the most interesting part of the story, the whole plot thing does feel secondary. My option of this story is shaped by my option of the art.

My view of SMS hasn't really changed over the years. Its close but not quite there for me. It has moments of wonder and glory, but at others there's something off about it, the lighting, the way he structures faces, the inking. Nothing quite gells and nothing feels too solid and grounded. Its not bad, not bad at all, but just not as evocative as Bisley's. As I've said already however, Bisley is so of his time, so of my time, that I look at it now and while I still enjoy it, it has nowhere near the impact on me it did back in the day.

I'm really intrigued to see how I get on with Horned God now!

*It is Jim not Brendan as listed on Barney right? I mean that's got to be Jim McCarthy inking Steve Parkhouse surely????
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 11 November, 2017, 07:39:20 PM
I think there are parallels to be drawn between SMS and David Pugh. Artists not seen in the Prog before doing a very good job on a legendary strip being  completely over shadowed by the other artist who is producing work of a level virtually never seen in the Prog before.

It's kinda interesting the level of reverence the Squaxx show to Bisley given the limited amount of work he has actually done for Tharg. The Black Hole, The Horned God a few Heavy Metal Dredds and a few covers. And that's about it.

But that's what happens when what you do do moves the bar so high.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Smith on 11 November, 2017, 07:52:49 PM
Bisley is a bit like Rob Liefeld.In a sense that hes got a unique style that got aped waaaay too much.
Cant say I was ever really a fan of the muddy-painted art in general,tbh.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 November, 2017, 08:54:02 PM
Quote from: Smith on 11 November, 2017, 07:52:49 PM
Bisley is a bit like Rob Liefeld.In a sense that hes got a unique style that got aped waaaay too much.
Cant say I was ever really a fan of the muddy-painted art in general,tbh.

Probably not the place for this discussion but I'd say that Liefeld of one of the copiers. McFarlane the original? Your point certainly carries though.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Smith on 11 November, 2017, 09:15:46 PM
Its hard to say whos the original there,and not all that important after all these years.
All Image founders quoted similar inspirations like: Kirby,Miller,Corben,Bilal...
But thats a different story...As I was saying,my problem isnt so much with Bisley,as with EVERYONE who decided to imitate him.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 November, 2017, 08:29:12 PM
Well it is the self absorbed thread so the following self quote from almost 9 years ago now... well I feel no shame!

QuoteSlowly but surely going through my progs in groups of 100 reading the good bits. This weekend amongst many more obvious classics (Zenith Book II weakest of the bunch but still absolutely brillant) I came up to Tribal Memories 580s

I always remember liking this story but my God I hadn't remembered how good it was. So much packed into 4 short episodes. Great characters, great ideas, wonderful art. An absolute classic.

Such a shame that for whatever reason (I must dig out Thrillpower Overload and see if it has anything to say on the matter) the characters weren't used again. Sometimes its fair to say these things are left alone BUT there seems so much more scope to play with in the world Milligan and 'Riot' created here. Such great potential for future stories.

Next time someone bumps into Pete Milligan ask him to sack Marvel and DC for a while and get back into this wonderful world from his past... well you never know.

9 years on from reading Tribal Memories the last time and my opinion hasn't changed. And since Pete Milligan has returned to these pastures I'd love to see more here. Oh and before anyone else says (as they did 9 years ago). Yes I agree it does work absolutely fine on its own and less often less is more BUT in this case I just think there was such potential for at least one more story. Very unlikely to ever happen but hey if it did...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 November, 2017, 08:42:36 PM
Oh and criminally I almost forgot, before we get to MORE! to mention 'The No-Go Job' - I remember thinking it was such a shot in the arm for Strontium Dog back in the day and you know what, I still do.

While the strip hadn't been bad it really hadn't ever recovered from the astonishing quality of 'Rage' and 'Incident on Mayger Minor' and had felt like it'd been treading water a little since then. Nowt was especially bad, though there were moments, but nothing was close to the quality of some of series previous highs.

Not sure if it was the shift in art, though surely it played some part. The fact that Alan Grant knew what he had planned and where the series was going? Whatever it was this fun little 8 parter really cranked up the quality and while you'll always miss Carlos maybe Simon Harrison was just what the series needed for where it was going.

Overall a thriumph and I can't wait to revisit and revaluate Final Solution just around the corner.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 13 November, 2017, 01:49:32 PM
Couldn't agree more on Simon Harrison's art being just what Strontium Dog needed. And I say that despite thinking 'The Rammy' and 'Stone Killers' were both top tier Stront outings, loads of fun characters, good jokes and clever plotting. But the 'No-Go Job' somehow kicked things up a notch, purely by virtue of showing you the same world seen through different eyes.
It probably helps also that Harrison, for all his greatness, didn't spawn an army of imitators, so his work has held up way better than early Simon Bisley in my eyes.

(Oh, and to reply to a question earlier, for my money Rob Liefeld was mostly trying to ape Art Adams. For reasons that only make sense to 12-year-old me, I still find early Liefeld to be super dynamic and exciting to look at, even though I can now see his many flaws with anatomy, perspective and above all, storytelling)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 November, 2017, 07:53:28 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 13 November, 2017, 01:49:32 PM

It probably helps also that Harrison, for all his greatness, didn't spawn an army of imitators, so his work has held up way better than early Simon Bisley in my eyes.


Yeah I think that could well be very true.

Mind who the heck could imitate Simon Harrison? Such a wonderfully unique sense of design and dynamic fresh realisation. I do wonder if folks could have immitated him of they'd tried.

Bit like Bill Sienkiewicz (once he shock off his own influences) you can see the odd person trying but most realise they weren't going to get close!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 November, 2017, 09:14:38 PM
Specials 1988

Well with the introduction of the Judge Dredd Special in 1988 its a pretty good year for our bump summer treats. New new Dredd addtional to the holiday bananza is a slim old beast but packs some quality in. 'The Blob' is a solid Alan Grant and John Higgins number, trumped by the wildly fun 'The Fall Guy' by Grant and Simpson, a thrill I've always loved for no real reason than its immense fun. Large swaves of the special though are filled with reprints of the daily Dredds which I remember enjoying at the time but don't quite hold up any more for me, all be it with some fun Gibson art.

The star of the show however - well assuming we don't count the glorious Brendon McCarthy 'Dredd's World' centre spread - it 'Blockers' and while I might not be the biggest Casanovas fan in the work the Wagner story is just such a riot of wonderful ideas and glorious Mega City madness its a delight and packs so much invention, great characters and humour into 5 pages its untrue. Just superb.

Interesting to note as well the Bolland cover is the first 'modern' Bolland image of Dredd. There's something about this depiction of Dredd from the great Bolland that seems a departure from his work of the past on Dredd and more a link to the US cover work he became known for. I can't quite place what but all his future Dredd's seem to stem from this image (or just this is the first of the kind)... that could be complete poppycock but something seems to have shifted.

Over at the bigger brother of the two specials the 2000ad Special also has some real highlights and a lot of filler in its bigger page count. The real star is John Smith's warm us up for Soft Bodies with the more comprehensible Tyranny Rex story deeply embeded in Indigo Prime and features many of its older characters and ones that will appear today. Its a curio these days but a wonderful one.

There are other slighter cute curios, the Zenith 'photo wall'on the inside cover (was this reprinted in the Zenith collections?) real fun. A Brendan McCarthy almost centre spread (again) of Johnny Alpha introducing a solid story, Grant Morrison misfiring in Venus Bluegenes and a couple of fun text pieces, one on the Halo Jones play and another on Comic Marts with then rare pictures of creators.

There's some so so other stuff and I'll be honest I really don't enjoy Phil Elliott on Dredd.

So yeah the Specials, much like the annuals remain a frsutration. They have some really gems in there, but sometimes it feels like they take some digging to find!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 December, 2017, 09:14:33 PM
So MORE arrives with a bang in Prog 589 Behind a Biz Dredd... is this the first Biz Dredd I remember being very excited by it back in the day... its not aged well... but back then... anyway behind that we have a bit of an all star line-up . Zenith back, Nemesis, Slaine and Rogue all adding to Dredd... perfect in so many ways. The Dredd in particular so wonderfully plays with the change in format introducing the extra colour with a really clever Wizard of Oz story I've always loved.

The trouble is it doesn't last long, not long at all.

Dredd of course continues, as does the wonderful Zenith Phase 2 (which on last reading I've always much under-rated it seems). Rogue quickly disappears by next prog 590, no major lose  but the real surprise is we have not one BUT two reprints (if you include running some daily Dredd's as reprint?).

By 591, only two Progs into this brave new era, we lose one of the reprint strips - WAYHEY to gain... Moonrunners... oh... dear.... okay I promise I'll approach this with an open mind, after all McKenzie and Parkhouse have good chops and while I'm not Belardinelli's biggest fan as I recall the series plays to his strengths... but I don't have fond memories of the strip... still open mind, open mind....

...oh and Slaine finsihes as well,... I barely dare open Prog 592!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Muon on 06 December, 2017, 02:38:23 PM
So Colin... You're over a year's worth of progs past 520... Would you give any credence at all to the idea that some kind of gradual dip in quality started then, or is it more a case of a changing of the old guard challenging people's ideas about the kind of comic 2000 AD should be.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 December, 2017, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Muon on 06 December, 2017, 02:38:23 PM
...or is it more a case of a changing of the old guard challenging people's ideas about the kind of comic 2000 AD should be.

I still think this. Its still really good stuff, just there's been a real shift over the last couple of years. Neither better nor worse persay but clearly a difference.

I was pondering whether the belief that the first 500 are the golden age is based on how broad your comic reading is? If someone was 2000ad focused I could see why the shift would be jarring and the difference wouldn't work for you. If your comic reading was from a broader church this shift was happening around you so 2000ad change more sense????

That could well be poppycock but it occured to me. Nor view would be wrong but might influence the person tastes and reflection people have of this period. For me 1986-1988 really started to see me shift as a comics reader so what was happening in 2000ad just seemed to reflect my 'world' view.

And Crisis was the next logical step too! But thats for a different threadt (one I'm not starting I should say to the relief of you all!)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Muon on 08 December, 2017, 09:52:55 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 December, 2017, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Muon on 06 December, 2017, 02:38:23 PM
...or is it more a case of a changing of the old guard challenging people's ideas about the kind of comic 2000 AD should be.

I still think this. Its still really good stuff, just there's been a real shift over the last couple of years. Neither better nor worse persay but clearly a difference.

I was pondering whether the belief that the first 500 are the golden age is based on how broad your comic reading is? If someone was 2000ad focused I could see why the shift would be jarring and the difference wouldn't work for you. If your comic reading was from a broader church this shift was happening around you so 2000ad change more sense????

That could well be poppycock but it occured to me. Nor view would be wrong but might influence the person tastes and reflection people have of this period. For me 1986-1988 really started to see me shift as a comics reader so what was happening in 2000ad just seemed to reflect my 'world' view.

And Crisis was the next logical step too! But thats for a different threadt (one I'm not starting I should say to the relief of you all!)

Yeah, I guess it's inevitable that squaxx's views on what 2000 AD (and I guess by extension, comics as a whole will be shaped by the period in which they really get into the prog. The post-Watchmen world of comics, about the time I graduated from cheeky chappie comics, was an eclectic time looking back, and that was reflected in the prog. At the same time I guess, things could get pretty pretentious and random at the expense of storytelling. I'm a product of that time and I think it's influenced my taste in comics, for better and for worse.

I eagerly await your Crisis re-read thread! In fact, I'm tempted to do a Revolver one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 December, 2017, 09:14:53 PM
A few quick thoughts on the late 500's:

1. Kev Walkers fisrt work in 2000ad (I think) a few future shocks in 90s. Man I'd not have recognised it!
2. Moonrunners. Its not bad so much as insanely dull... its as forgetable as Angel!
3. Chris Western's early art, first work in 2000ad (I think) is a couple of Dredds in 90s. Man I'd recognise it but its a mile from the quality of his later work.
4. Soft Bodies still baffles me.
5. Copper - Soul on Fire is a fantastic little short story
6. MORE! is still struggling to fill its pages - as the odd reprint slips in.
7. Whatever happened to portable mini VCRs 598 seems to think they will hit hard... I don't think they did!
8. Torque the Otter. One of the great fan art puns of our time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 December, 2017, 09:10:58 PM
Prog 600

By this stage I am kinda wondering what the heck Tharg has been thinking. I have a feeling that this was covered in Thrillpowered Overload and its something to do with him not being able to replace departing talent quick enough but being committed to the attempt to expand the comic. Makes for all sorts of crazy scheduling. Somewhere between 589 and 600 there's an absolutely stella launch Prog. As it lands in reality it just looks like Thargs throwing things in at random and hasn't been planning ahead.

600 is actually a cracking Prog, in the main. Rogue Trooper, while not my favourite is back, though as I recall this story is a wasted effort. There's a particular fun Dredd as Gods gamble with Mega City One brought to us by Alan Grant and Glenn Farby... much as I love it, it does rather read like it was meant for an annual... maybe Tharg was getting desperate for pages by now! Zenith Phase 2 continues to be glorious and I'll get back to that soon enough, its its deep into its story. Moonrunners drones on. I'm only still reading it as I'm so curious as to how its so dull and poorly executed.

Finally (well first in Prog terms actually!) we have Simon Harrions continue his run on Strointium Dog with the absolutely supreme (at least at first) Final Solution kicking off. I've already said how much I love his work on the strip and this story, as I recall, really plays to his strenghts, as his first dark sinister tale, balanced with some gloriously odd ball co-stars demonstrates so well.

So yeah its a pretty cool Prog, just not as jump on as it might be, as was Prog 589... really need to be reading Thrillpower Overload in conjunction with my read, but it would spoil my attempt to read this as unsulled as possible.

Oh and love the fact that Willow brings the retunrn of the half page movie strip. Thought these little movie 'trailers' were long gone, so chuffed to see this on in here which I'd completely forgotten about.

So lets see how Tharg is able to round of 1988 and whether he starts to get his house in order.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 December, 2017, 09:07:38 PM
So a few more things.

Did John Smith just get bored of Soft Bodies and whole - it was a film thing - was just a way to wrap it up asap?

The more I read Zenith Phase II the more I think it might be my favourite and that's as a MASSIVE fan of Phase III. I think its just the most interesting examination of Zenith as a character and so much more cutting than anything thing either side. Its sets up the intrigue that GMozz more than delivers on but does so really, really well. Its also fascinating to see Steve Yeowell develop into the artist at his peak over the course of the strip. Its almost perfect, it really is.

QuoteCommon sense dictates that figures cannot always be rght- and if they're sometimes wrong, why, they could just as easily always be wrong
Alan Grant, Strontium Dog,  Prog 604

And almost 30 years later this arguement helped to get us Brexit - damn those pesky facts and experts!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 December, 2017, 09:08:35 PM
Where as 1987 was a difficult one for me to judge, certainly in comparison to what had gone in the two years before

1988

is much easier. While its an odd year with so many up and downs, highs and lows its not as good as any of the last 3 years, not close. 2000ad has gone into its teen years (a little early I'll grant you) and its had a growth spurt as I've mentioned before, but here its clear its grown a little too quickly and its all gone a little awkward and uncomfortable in its newly transformed body. Thrillpowered hormones have pushed the comic into all sorts of interesting and challenging new scenarios but its become clear its not quite ready to handle it and at times it seems to just embarrass itself with its pretensions of maturity - sorry Soft Bodies. At times its just plain dull when it tries too hard to be smart and different, Moonrunners that's you.

Oh it does have moments, and many of them, of absolute glory. The sequels are really stand proud, both Zenith Phase II and Bad Company Book 2 probably better than their firsts, ABC Warriors ends well enough. There are some lovely short stories, with Tribal Memories always being one of my favourites and Chopper's first soulo outing a forgotten gem (for me at least). But while Strontium Dog gets its mojo back and Slaine's cameos have much to love a couple of other classics stumble a little. Nemesis Book 9 almost feels like self parody (I'll come back to that when its done). Rogue Trooper, though never a classic in my eyes begins to fumble its reinvention and even Dredd, some highlights aside again lacks the lustre of its best.

Yeah there are some real highlights... just not as many as I've become used to. So 1988 makes it clear that 2000ad grew too fast to quick and needed to take a breather for a moment before learning just what it can do with its new shape and form...

... now in 1989 ... if memory serves... it might just do that... though it won't all be plain sailing either... lets find out together shall we.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Woolly on 12 December, 2017, 09:40:28 PM
Quote5. Copper - Soul on Fire

"Sgt Terry Brixton, newly transferred from the Cotswolds to the force in East Peckham, struggles to cope with the stranglehold of the inner city gangs, until he discovers an ancient text that awakens an immortal Flame Demon within him..."






Sorry...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 December, 2017, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: Woolly on 12 December, 2017, 09:40:28 PM
Quote5. Copper - Soul on Fire

"Sgt Terry Brixton, newly transferred from the Cotswolds to the force in East Peckham, struggles to cope with the stranglehold of the inner city gangs, until he discovers an ancient text that awakens an immortal Flame Demon within him..."


I want to see this!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 December, 2017, 08:46:49 PM
Annuals 1989

Well not much to say really. A few bits and bobs here and there but these really aren't that good are they.

So much padding and while some is good, nice early interviews with Mills and Bolland in the Dredd annual and creator profile pages I always enjoy - though what with not pretedning they're droids anyone! Its pretty weak so dominated by reprints as it is.

One other shame is found in Ace Trucking. I got the feeling the new status quo, with Feek ruling the roost and more, was meant to go somewhere. Woiuld have been interesting to see his developed.

Highlight was the nice Bad Company short in the 2000ad, particularly pertainent given the recent Bad Company series and the theme there in.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 15 December, 2017, 11:01:24 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 December, 2017, 08:46:49 PM

One other shame is found in Ace Trucking. I got the feeling the new status quo, with Feek ruling the roost and more, was meant to go somewhere. Woiuld have been interesting to see his developed.

To me, it seems the perfect ending to the series - Ace screws up again, and we leave him in isolation, vowing vengeance, only one step away from comically shaking his fist at all those who don't recognise his genius. I've never seen this as trying to set up more stories: more an effective way to put a cap on things and end on a high note after the largely-rotten Dopplegarp stories. (Besides we can all guess what happens next - Ace gets out in twelve months and, with the help of a complicated and foolhardy plan, manages to usurp Feek, only for the plan to then backfire and the business to go down the tubes, resulting in a reset of the classic status quo.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 December, 2017, 09:54:56 AM
Yeah actually reflecting on it you are probably right Greg. It would seem an odd place to fit a new introduction to a new status quo. Much more sensible for it to be a wrapping up thing in the annual...

... still doesn't stop me wanting to see the very story you describe. After all it could have been a redemption after the bloody awful Dopplegarp years!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 December, 2017, 09:10:12 PM
Early (very) 1989

So a short break and Boxing day sees us enter 1989, a rather glorious article about the return of the console machine thought dead after the rise of the home computer services as a glorious reminder as to why reading the original progs is such a delight.

There's also some other curios that will not see reprint, Prog 608 features a Future Shock by Richard Elson being very unRichard Elson (as I know him now) - wearing what looks to my eye like a Brendan McCarthy influence very much in his shelve. And another by David Anthquist being very unDavid Antiquist - Silo can't be too far off.

In other news I'm not hating Night Zero which I thought I did. It tries to pack too much in but at times its such fun.

Reading Our Man in Hondo I'm minded of comments made in the X-Mas Prog thread about Colin MacNeil... his work isn't quite there yet... love the story - but as I recall it takes Surf 11 for him to really develop as an artist?

I'm also minded now much I enjoy Zippy Couriers, such a fun fresh strip and love the art by Graham Higgins - whatever happened to him?

But the man news is Nemesis Book 9 finishes and as I recall, a couple of mis-fires and false starts here and there that's it for the old Warlock for quite a few years. Do love this story, even if John Hicklenton's glorious art does start to completely breakdown in the old storytelling department. Can't quite remember why the series went onto such a long hiatus from this time. Seems a shame as it had moved into some interesting ground... the trouble is it was tricky ground to get past the whole Nemesis and Torq find a new way to fight. I'm interested too see when the ol' Warlock pops up in the intervening years (11 of them?) to see how the flames are fanned, as I recall they are from time to time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 04 January, 2018, 03:18:44 PM
I definitely feel that there's a lost Nemesis book or two that we never got to see, presumably something to do with an editorial argument between Mills and Burton (maybe Burton had had enough of Hicklenton's art?).

And yes, there's no substitute for reading the Progs themselves to capture that delight on reading old tech articles; I remember liking John Brosnan's sporadic film reviews, too.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 January, 2018, 05:10:42 PM
Wasn't there something called Hammer of Torquemada or some such that was planned and we saw a preview of but never materialised. I might be mis-remembering things there.

As I recall the Deadlock story doesn't really move anything on except for the relationship between the two characters (Deadlock and Nemesis that is) ... and that might be a couple of years or more off?

Still it will be fun seeing how all this plays out.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 04 January, 2018, 06:54:31 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 January, 2018, 05:10:42 PM
Wasn't there something called Hammer of Torquemada or some such that was planned and we saw a preview of but never materialised. I might be mis-remembering things there.

As I recall the Deadlock story doesn't really move anything on except for the relationship between the two characters (Deadlock and Nemesis that is) ... and that might be a couple of years or more off?

Still it will be fun seeing how all this plays out.

Hammer of Warlocks is a three-part story that's curious for spending two of its three episodes recapping the entire saga to date! This is because, according to Mills, he planned out an epic Horned God-style fully painted saga for which this was to be a prologue. It never materialised (supposedly because readers didn't take to Clint Langley's art) leaving it a curious little thing indeed.

At the end Torquemada is planning an epic jaunt across the cosmos in search of the fabled Hammer; because we never got said jaunt, he just pops up randomly at the start of Book X after 'many years away' having got the Hammer off-screen, as it were - and the Hammer makes little impact in the story that follows. A bizarre narrative dead-end, all told.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 January, 2018, 09:17:52 PM
Well Tharg turned 12 in Prog 615, but possibly the issue before 614 represented the biggest turn of events for Tharg's organ. Not the issue in itself but some of its content really emphasize what's been happening as 2000ad finds new and surprising growths and developments as it enters this awkward time.

We get two Jamie Hewlett strips in one issue (well one working as part of a team), David Roach on Anderson continues that strips sharper more 'mature' edge/ A Hilary Robinson and Kev Walker Future Shock seems to hold pretensions too (though its actually quite fun). Another text article arrives - though the arrival of Roxilla and her bizarre selection of music  might be more in keeping with the tonal shift I'm feeling in this issue.

Yeah its all underscored by the Simon Harrison Feral poster, with our brave new Strontium Dog looking sharp, cool and different, almost like the old Alien Sex Fiend adverts we used to get.

It all makes for a heady mix and a good example of the shifts the Prog is going through. Funny we get Night Zero and the curious choice of a Joe Black reprint to remind us we're not there yet!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 January, 2018, 08:59:09 PM
So a few quick thoughts on the first 1/3 of 1989

1. Been meaning to ask since the last third of 1988 actually, but why the heck are the colour pages after 'MORE' positioned as they are? Centre spread as before, 5 page pf BnW and then the remaining 4 pages of colour. I'm guessing there's a reason relating to printing?

2. While we're talking printing, why are so many of the page suffering from poor reproduction? It seems to affect one page ever Prog and annoyingly the lose of depth in the blacks always seem to land on Simon Harrison's Strontium Dog, which impacts on his glorious art so much.

3. I like David Roach's art on Helios, but am I the only one who finds his figure work pretty stilted at times?

4. Sooner or Later Too... damnit I always hope I'll enjoy this and I assume I'm mis-remembering now bad it is... alas I'm not.

5. LOVE the various text articles, though that Roxilla is a little up herself at times ain't she!

6. Love early Hilary Robinson. I know she doesn't have the best rep as a tooth writer, but I really enjoy Zippy Couriers, like her early Future Shocks (Glaring Anomaly a particular favourite) and LOVE the first Medivac 318 story.

7. Those Moonrunner Star Scans, who thought we wanted those then!

8. Still it filled up pages as MORE still stretches Tharg to reprint, I'd forgotten how long that lasted!

9. Does anyone else think that the glorious 2 part Dredd about the MoPad that broken down in the wrong part of town was originally destined for an annual? Don't know why but it really felt like an annual story to me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 08 January, 2018, 01:41:57 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 January, 2018, 08:59:09 PM
6. Love early Hilary Robinson. I know she doesn't have the best rep as a tooth writer, but I really enjoy Zippy Couriers, like her early Future Shocks (Glaring Anomaly a particular favourite) and LOVE the first Medivac 318 story.

It's odd, isn't it? On a re-read she comes across as a breath of fresh air.  I was always a fan of Medivac 318 and (the underused potential of) Zippy Couriers, but it retrospect Robinson almost seems a bit ahead of her time, not so much in style or originality, but in the type of stories she was telling, and their pacing.  I can't help feeling that a lot of her material would have been warmly welcomed in the current prog in a way that I don't think they were at the time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 January, 2018, 03:59:11 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2018, 01:41:57 PM

It's odd, isn't it? On a re-read she comes across as a breath of fresh air. 

Yeah always thought about her like this.

Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2018, 01:41:57 PM
I can't help feeling that a lot of her material would have been warmly welcomed in the current prog in a way that I don't think they were at the time.


But never this and now you've planted the thought in my head and reading Medivac 318 I can't help thinking you are right (as ever!). Was she just way ahead of the curve?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 January, 2018, 05:28:49 PM
Well Tharg just can't catch a break. He gets a truly Zarjaz line-up, Zenith: Ohase 3, Slaine: Horned God and Rogue Trooper: Cinnabar, truly John Smith produces by far the greatest of the original era Rogue stories, its just superb, right to its horrifying end... but boy is it choppy waters. Alongside Dredd though these stories truly are in 2000ad's pantheon of greatness, Dredd is on cracking form and the back up strips do okay...

...Tharg seems to be rushing this stuff out to try to fill the Prog. Okay we seem to have ended a run of Future 'Stock' fillers, often written by folk we'll not see again, or draw by artist we will before they are ready... but the three classics we have running though and all fall short of finishing their runs in on got. In Prog 634 Zenith takes a breather, but its okay Medivac 318 and Arthur Ranson's first outing on Anderson in Triad step up. Phew well done there Tharg... Prog 635... Slaine draws breath and Cinnabar finishes and this time we get two shorts of good standard, but still filler in Stontium Dogs and a one off, its good stuff, not great, but good...

Jez its not like Tharg isn't trying here but amazing as some of this stuff is it doesn't half feel like he's constantly sprinting to the line at break neck speed and as such he's stumbling a lot... yet at time he's still putting in a gold medal performance.

Interesting times indeed.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2018, 09:11:55 PM
Well interestingish, see after the previously mentioned ups and downs the Prog begins a continued dip... or does it...

It ain't all bad, some decent Dredd, Final Solution continues well, though if I'm honest art aside not as astonishing as I remember, the story feels a bit forced and dare I say it flat at times.

Elsewhere Hilary Robinson is in full force, which given my earlier praise is surely a good thing... and it is... at times... Zippy Couriers makes an all to brief final (I think) appearance. Medivac 318 Book 2 has some fantastic moments, but other moments that makes you go 'What now? Huh' as in:

The invading aliens disappear because what now... huh?

An episode about putting bombs on a box what now... huh?

The war is over cos everyone is dead, what now huh?

Its a shame as it still nicely done, but lacks a real cohesive feel, which the first story really had. Mind Nigel Dobbyn's art is still sublime.

In another Robinson strip The Survivor returns Henry 'Panther' Moon from Mean Team... one of the great questions of our time what on Earth made Tharg think we needed more Mean Team??? Without much mean and no team. Its such a weird one.... not as weird as the return of Moonrunners (not Hilary Robinson I should point out). I'd completely forgetten this series had a second series, I mean completely. So dulled was my brain my the dull dullness of the first...

... or is it just my brain is rubbish cos I'd also forgotten how stonkingly good Anderson - Triad was. Christ why isn't this in my all time list of Anderson classics. Well to be honest cos Anderson has been so good almost all the time. Bloody hell Alan Grant does some fantastic work on this strip and he's rewarded by such glorious artists. I mean how does Arthur Ranson find a the Block Ness Monster to model for him, goes lets face it these has to be photor-referenced its so authentic... right?

There's still 7 Progs til the big hitters return in 650 and Strontium Dog has just dropped out to be replaced by what I think is that rariest of things a John Smith story I don't like... what will Tharg be serving us over these next few issues???

I'm not sure I like this type of interestin'!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 January, 2018, 08:50:08 PM
So I've limbed to Prog 649 (to be fair had a few distractions) and Tharg really has been throwing all he's got into filling the Prog in time for his next big relaunch (I'll come back to that next time), man is he throwing all he's got, not really in a good way.

Firstly there's Issigri Variations, not John Smith's finest, but have to be honest I enjoyed it a lot more than I remember. My big problem is I just don't get on with Mike Hadley's art at all and I think its that, rather than some rather too cute ideas from the mighty Mr Smith. I do wonder if this had a different artist I'd get on with it more.

The only other none Dredd ongoing by this stage is Beyond Zero, which is just not that good. I quite enjoyed Night Zero, quite, but this just feels all over the place and lacks any real sense of purpose. I'm not surprised Tharg is happy to brush it aside for the relaunch, though as I recall its not too long before it sneaks back in?

By this stage the rest of the Prog is being filled with some pretty lower tier filler, Future Shocks of a medium to low quality and Strontium Dogs which has had a pretty dramatic dip in form since some half decent early efforts.

So not the best build up to the big relaunch BUT hell we got a relaunch coming and the line-up for 650 is pretty bloody fantastic... the problem is though Tharg really struggled to keep up with demands of the last relaunch, what has changed to make us think this will go any smoother... truth be told as I remember it doesn't, let's hold hands and find out together hey... well after I read those last three Blueberry volumes, see ya in a bit...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 01 February, 2018, 03:13:15 PM
I can't help but think that the switch to colour art, and painted art at that, must have taken Tharg by surprise in terms of how much longer it takes for artists to deliver finished pages.

Re: Beyond Zero, I recall that it tries really hard to have something to say about feminism in action movies, without necessarily actually making a point. The sad thing is, I'm not sure things have changed 30 years on. His main joke was having a typical male and female characters swap dialogue, which is what many (female) actors apparently have to do to get decently-written parts!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 02 February, 2018, 02:54:00 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2018, 09:11:55 PM
In another Robinson strip The Survivor returns Henry 'Panther' Moon from Mean Team... one of the great questions of our time what on Earth made Tharg think we needed more Mean Team??? Without much mean and no team. Its such a weird one.... not as weird as the return of Moonrunners (not Hilary Robinson I should point out). I'd completely forgetten this series had a second series, I mean completely. So dulled was my brain my the dull dullness of the first...

The most disappointing thing about both of thee strips is Belardinelli's art - if you compare Mean Team to Inferno, or Moonrunners to Ace Trucking, Massimo was basically phoning it in by this point, his figures were so stilted and lacking in movement.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 February, 2018, 08:07:17 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 01 February, 2018, 03:13:15 PM
Re: Beyond Zero, I recall that it tries really hard to have something to say about feminism in action movies, without necessarily actually making a point. The sad thing is, I'm not sure things have changed 30 years on. His main joke was having a typical male and female characters swap dialogue, which is what many (female) actors apparently have to do to get decently-written parts!

Yeah while Night Zero played with noir tropes, Beyond Zero attempts to play with action movie tropes, the trouble is it does it a lot less successfully... or rather just as well (or not well) but its a lot less conherant and formed in doing that. Where as the cliches in Night are fun, the cliches in Beyond, almost because it thinks its being smart in playing with them, are just ackward and horribly done.

Quote from: Dandontdare on 02 February, 2018, 02:54:00 PM

The most disappointing thing about both of thee strips is Belardinelli's art - if you compare Mean Team to Inferno, or Moonrunners to Ace Trucking, Massimo was basically phoning it in by this point, his figures were so stilted and lacking in movement.


I've said many times I'm not Belardinelli's biggest fan and for me his works always looks stilted and lacking movement. For me the big difference is these problems have less to hide behind in Mean Team and Moonrunners than Inferno and Ace Trucking, which played far better to his strengths by letting the crazy rule!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 02 February, 2018, 08:39:05 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 02 February, 2018, 02:54:00 PM
The most disappointing thing about both of thee strips is Belardinelli's art - if you compare Mean Team to Inferno, or Moonrunners to Ace Trucking, Massimo was basically phoning it in by this point, his figures were so stilted and lacking in movement.

I know it's just a turn of phrase, but I find it hard to look at Moonrunners and Mean Team and see an artist "phoning it in". I'm not denying I prefer his earlier 80s stuff,  and I'd happily argue that he reached a peak in Dragonheist,  but the amount of detail alone in both strips doesn't seem to me like someone taking the piss - there may well have been someone phoning it in, but I don't think it was Massimo.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 February, 2018, 08:53:29 PM
Well Blueberry read - and that a very good read too, I return now to Progs and specifically:

Prog 650

Well the line-up speaks for itself really doesn't it. Dredd, War Machine, Zenith, Dead Man and Slaine Horned God book 2. Its as strong a line-up as you'll see in any issue.

With three strips now in full colour and not just colour but fully painted to a quite fantastic standard the big question is how long does it last. As I recall the demands of painted art take their toll pretty quickly.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 February, 2018, 08:55:23 PM
Well okay I knew it was coming but I'd forgotten how quick the breaks came. After four issues we lose War Machine - which if I'm host isn't holding up quite as well as my meory of it.

Still at least uliek the last big launch Tharg has something of quality waiting in the wings as Chopper Song of the Surfer steps up to the plate. The shift in Colin MacNeil's art during the course of this strip is something to behold as I recall.

Next for a break is Slaine only two Progs later... lets see how deep Tharg's reservor of strips is for the big colur push...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 13 February, 2018, 01:27:00 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 February, 2018, 08:53:29 PM
With three strips now in full colour and not just colour but fully painted to a quite fantastic standard the big question is how long does it last. As I recall the demands of painted art take their toll pretty quickly.

It will be interesting to see what you think.

At the risk of skipping ahead a bit I am doing a bit of a Slaine reread. I remember thinking at the time that the art on the series that followed the Horned God didn't stack up compared to Simon Bisley's and that Tharg was scratching around to get someone else to paint Slaine given he couldn't get Bisley anymore.

In retrospect that's probably a bit unfair. Fabry does a good job on Demon Killer, although I prefer his black and white. Dermot Power's is perfectly ok but there is something about his figures I can't quite put my finger on that doesn't look right. The stand out has got to be Greg Staples' work. Dare I say it is every bit as good as Bisley's.

Jim Murray's ( the Bowels of Hell) somehow looks cartoony and not in a good way.

That's as far as I have got in my reread. Interestingly Clint Langley explains in the blurb in the Lord of Misrule TPB how he was forced to draw it rather than paint it and how he thinks Slaine should  always be fully painted.

When I say the comparison of those that followed Bisley was unfair, well it's not as if Bisley invented painting or sequential story telling using paintings is it? It just we had never seen anything remotely like it in 2000AD before.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 February, 2018, 08:57:36 PM
1989

Not quite sure what to say about 1989... well actually maybe I do. When talking about 1988 I said this looking ahead

QuoteYeah there are some real highlights... just not as many as I've become used to. So 1988 makes it clear that 2000ad grew too fast to quick and needed to take a breather for a moment before learning just what it can do with its new shape and form...

... now in 1989 ... if memory serves... it might just do that... though it won't all be plain sailing either... lets find out together shall we.

I was damned close, but 1989, or at least the bulk of it, is very similar to 1988. Except it might not have so many highlights. There are some great moments don't get me wrong, Triad, the bits of Zenith Phase 3 we get... errr.... some bits of Dredd... some bits of Strontium Dog Final Solution... Horned God, though I'm not enjoying that as much as I did last time.... there's a lot of good stuff too... Medivac, Zippy Couriers... some other stuff... its weird the year just hasn't struvk me as much as some others and Tharg's organ is still having its ackward growth spurt. Its still struggling to find its feet.

Then we get to Prog 650 and the organ really spurts out all over the place. It starts off as a thrilling climax to the year. I mean surely things have rarely felt so good with a line-up like that. However I've avoided talking too much about it as much of what starts in 650 has shot its bolt a little too early and should have taken more time so it could get to its end more smoothly and satisfyingly. As it is as things are already a bit choppy and great strips have to give way to other great strips I have a feeling it all ends in a bit of a sticky mess.

Each of the thrills that starts in 650 (or shortly after) I'll probably say something about at some point but we need to get there. We need to put up with the interruptions and the breaks, the false starts and premature endings. Well except Deadman... but we'll come to that.

All this and Dredd, while having some real highlights is still far off its very best... though that might come very soon.

Yeah Prog 650 came just a little too late to save 1989. Its not a bad year, not by any stretch, but it continues the dip from the magnificence of the mid eighties and when it stinks it really bloomin' stinks.

So I'll guide you through the annuals and the specials and then we'll head into the new decade.... full of fresh hope and A levels (well it was for me!) ... and we might have enough for another classic, or we might still be a little too choppy... I look forward to finding out.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 February, 2018, 06:33:00 PM
Annuals and Specials 1989.

I'm throwing these together as I actually think the Specials are better than the annuals this year. Don't think that's ever been the case before?

The annuals have a lot of filler, and while not at all bad as filler goes it does means that you don't get a great deal of bang for your book. The 2000ad Annual probably scraps it over the Dredd annual, okay so Moonrunners rolls its pointless way in we get fun Dredds and Andersons and the text stuff is pretty strong too. The highlight of the Dredd Annual is clearly Arthur Ranson's art, but to be honest it polishes an average John Wagner Dredd and this rest of the new strip are fine, but nothing more. Oh it has some excellent reprints, but you know its reprints.

Now the Specials on the other hand each have one stella strip each. I really enjoy the Sumo story in Dredd and in the 2000ad its the fantastic, and emotionally charged Judge Corey strip, with stunning MIke Austin art (as is his turn in the Dredd special too). Its a wonderful strip and a powerful read with a real impact. The rest of the new strip, well Moonrunners aside, in both are really good. Okay it took me a while to realise the art on the Ratty's son story was Kev Walker, man does his stuff develop but the Tyranny Rex story is another favourite. Actually there's barely a mis-step in the 2000ad special its all good stuff, I also have fond memories of the Crime Blitz game as well!

So yeah the Specials actually did feel special for once and the annuals, well they did what they do every year.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 February, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Charging quickly into early 1990, bloomin' heck a new decade and hasn't the Prog come on.

Anyway chargin' into early 1990 a few things are coming to the fore. Tharg's scheduling is still shot, but Tharg's back up plan is so much better. He has more good (well we'll come that) Thrills lined up, so as one slips aside, he has another crowd pleaser to takes its place. It makes, as I've said before, choppy reading and the stories do suffer for their absences but things are a lot better.

Speaking of a lot better Colin MacNeil's art really steps up in the first three weeks of 1990, the transformation happens before us on the pages of Chopper and is quite staggering to behold.

Meanwhile one of the subs off the bench is Bradley. I loved this as a kid, Simon Harrison's art is magnificent, its glorious, but back in the day it felt powerful and rebellious. The story however hasn't aged at all well. Again as a kid it felt new and vibrant. Now I wonder how anyone had such vitrol against Jason Donavan. I mean sure it was fine to hold him contempt and sure he was everywhere. As an 18 year old at the time I really didn't like him at all. But really Alan MacKenzie needs to find more important things to get quite so excited about!

All of this of course is preamble and the real story here is Deadman, except there's not much to say beyond what's been said before. Its simply magnificent and even without the people of the reveal as was had back then it is such a piece of craft. The pacing, the sense of place, the slow build and the characterisation just sublime. A classic that truly stands the test of time after countless re-reads.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 February, 2018, 09:28:30 PM
Chopper - Song of the Surfer

Its funny with all the showcase pieces knocking around the start of 1990 (the 650 strips) with the next generation of talent really strutting their arrogant (possibly deservedly so) stuff, Bisley on Horned God and Morrison on Zenith its interesting that the two Wagner strips are the ones that have stood the test of time so much better than the others.

Actually that's possibly a bit unfair, particularly on Zenith Phase III which I do adore... but after the umpteenth re-read might have slipped below Phase II. Horned God has some superb moments but I don't know its  not surviving this re-read the way I was expecting and my least favourite Book 3 is on its way.

Song of the Surfer is utterly timeless though. Like Deadman its all about simple craft done well. Story building tension with a deft touch. Colin MacNeill's art developing quite fantastically on the page. Not sure I have much else to say except for all these fantastic new talents bursting through ya can't beat a bit of Wagner, 13 years in some stuff doesn't change huh... heck 41 years in but we'll get to that, in time.

In other matters the train is well and truly coming off the tracks, we're starting to get filler, and strips dropping in and out like nobodies business. Heck I'd even forgotten Beyond Zero had taken a bench. Still Bix Barton, while not Milligan's best ain't bad and YEAH! more Zippy Couriers, thought this one had finished so happy to have it back.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 26 February, 2018, 09:46:00 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 February, 2018, 09:28:30 PM
Song of the Surfer is utterly timeless though. Like Deadman its all about simple craft done well.

Song of the Surfer is an amazing piece of writing - as the years go on, I start to feel it might be the best story John Wagner ever wrote. He makes it look so effortless, but just like The Dead Man, the story is a masterclass in the slow-burn build up of tension, eventually exploding into a dark and violent climax. The older I get, the more shocking I find the death of Dallas Hall in particular. 2000AD as a whole has no shortage of wacky head-exploding moments in its pages, but there's nothing at all cartoonish about this one: it feels horribly real.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 27 February, 2018, 09:43:09 AM
Song of the Surfer is incredible. Discounting Oz as a fun mish-mash where both stories appear to be sub-plots and including Soul on Fire as a prologue, the 'Chopper Trilogy' of Un-American Grafitti, Midnight Surfer and Song of the Surfer are every bit as good as the more lauded America Trilogy.  The escalation in SotS from the familiar Wagner comedy-foreigner stereotypes ('Furt mit Frank' always raises a smile) and future-sport to an extraordinarily harrowing exploration of exploitation, violence and even (foreshadowing) reality TV.

The progression of universally excellent art from Ron Smith through Cam Kennedy to at least three flavours of the young MacNeil also nicely frames the development of the comic across the period.

And I'd agree with Colin,  SotS has stood the test of time far better than Horned God.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 27 February, 2018, 02:32:13 PM
So Colin and Tordels, I'm interested - how do you see The Horned God not standing up too well?

I have been doing my own Slaine re-read lately and some of it did strike me as a bit one dimensional post Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 27 February, 2018, 04:37:55 PM
Interesting stuff. If I'm honest, I can't remember when (or if) I last reread Song of the Surfer. I can tell you that I thought it was fairly dreadful at the time it ran, but I can't for the life of me remember why that was.

I wonder if there is some way I can give it a fair try now.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 February, 2018, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 27 February, 2018, 02:32:13 PM
So Colin and Tordels, I'm interested - how do you see The Horned God not standing up too well?

I have been doing my own Slaine re-read lately and some of it did strike me as a bit one dimensional post Game of Thrones.

There's a few things I want to qualify before I launch into this. Firstly I was tired when I made the last comment and didn't really get across the point I was trying to make, which was going to be how I think I've changed as a reader so much over the years... but that will have to wait.

Secondly while I stand by the fact that The Horned God hasn't aged as well as other strips I should also point out I think its great and enjoy it a great deal. Well certainly the first two books, I seem to recall the third has significent problems - but I'll get to that too.

Okay so what makes me think this is the case. Two things in this particular case. First I'm afraid to say its The Biz. I've mentioned here before while his art is good and wonderfully dynamic and meladramatic (in the good way) it is very of its time, very possibly due to the impact it had and the influence that created, but whatever the reason the fact remains.

Secondly the story. Its good, its interesting, but again falls victim of what it will lead to. In this case in the work of Mills (P, Aunty). It revels in stripping away sterotype, in depicting the hero in new way. But it does so in quite simplistic ways. Flipping thing on their head in a way that becomes predictable and is somewhat over stated. Its all there on the surface, nothing is done with subtly. This feels like a worse fault given that Patty (Mills, Uncle) has continued to do this to this day and frankly often doesn't add to the stuff covered here.

To be fair its not as bad as the reverse logic of say his Tony Skinner (K)chaos days, but suffers in the reflected light from such efforts and the bashing over the head with points laboured much over the years.

So there we have it. While Song of the Surfer works its magic far more quietly, gently pulling us in with great character. Quietly tricking us with Sonny Williams into thinking this will be another exciting sports piece, when it reality he's just a slight of hand to make the real themes of the story to hit home all the harder. It has the craft that Mills is more than capable of, but a timeless simple depth left for the reader to find under the ultra violent high octane surface at their own pace. It, like 2000ad allows itself to grow with you. Horned God blurts it all out in a glorious technicolour explosion of teen energy that I loved all the more at the time, but hasn't oftered more more as I've grown.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 February, 2018, 09:52:36 PM
Well enough of that pretenious spouting from me, should we talk about how pointless The Sister's Bradley story is...

Nah lets not (I did love it at the time). Instead aren't we all glad that Bix has stopped those bloody Rugby comments, they were getting so grating.

Also what a shame that Zippy Couriers bows out with a wimper, no wonder I'd forgotten it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 February, 2018, 09:05:09 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 February, 2018, 09:52:36 PM
Also what a shame that Zippy Couriers bows out with a wimper, no wonder I'd forgotten it!

Whoops or the one after it which I quite liked.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 March, 2018, 09:14:06 PM
Lets talk beginings shall we. There's a lot of them coming up in my re-read now as Tharg finally has all his new strips in good order to cover the gaps in his new strips not in good order. Two I want to quickly look at are Armoured Gideon and Shadows.

Armoured Gideon is a strip I've always had a soft spot for but it so very much in Tharg's middle tier that is so endemic of the Prog at this time going forward, particularly the new strips. It opens with an absolute smash in the face of big ideas and is as bold and brash as its namesake in throwing them straight at you. The art is shocking and dynamic and so in keeping with the story it displays. Its an opening that so embedded in 2000ad as we know it at this point.

Shadows a strip absolutely from Tharg's top draw comes along in the next Prog and it also presents big ideas and draws you straight into its world. It does it so much more guile and subtly. It builds its world and key theme in just six packed pages and doesn't even bother to let you know its doing it. It just opens its door, invites you in and lets you absorb your new emvironment. All this a beautiful language to do it with and art from Richard Elson that ... well is most notable for being recognisable as Richard Elson as we'll come to know him (also see Simon 'Same chiselled face for everyone regardless of gender' Colby whose Universal Soldier is prologues in the same Prog). So yeah a quite brilliant 2000ad opening again in absolute keeping with 2000ad as we know it today.

So there we have fantastically encapsulated in just two perfectly Thargian opening episodes the scope and wonder that is the diversity of the Galaxies Greatest.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 March, 2018, 09:39:59 PM
Hey Anderson before you start having a go at Kraken shouldn't you be forgetting when you were manipulated into allowing the Dark Judges back, just saying.

Anyway last time beginnings, this time endings. In asecnding order.

Chronos Carnival = well frankly are we bothered. I mean this should have been good, a carnival, but they made that irrelevant, dragons, but they made them awkward, shape changing villians who are presented as vicious deadly killers and are basically a bit rubbish and you just kills them with stuff. Neil the first of our heroes is a jerk, mind at least he spends one ENTIRE episode being a bit of a jerk but at least admitting he's wrong. The other hero... called... something isn't a jerk.... if only cos its hard to remember anything defining about her, she's so forgettable.

So by the end of all that some stuff happened, the dragon gave some kids a ride and the shape changing deadly alien uses its powers for the first time, but only when caged and impedient, not while actually you know fighting the goodies. Bloody useless and even Ron Smith's art seems totally off.

Armoured Gideon lands its ending really well, its bold, its brash and it in perfect keeping with the tone of the series. The series as a whole has been far from perfect, but its been fun and I have to be honest I can't really put my finger on why I don't think its great. I mean it should be, the concept, the character are all very sharp and exciting. Its pretty original and makes daing choices... its just a bit off... well offish... offesque... I mean its good and I have a real soft spot for it, but for some reason its just not great. The ending is however and leave me hankering for its return.

Shadows as with the beginning so with the ending - absoluely fantastic. This series is Milligan at his best. It creates its world, shakes it up and moves the story alone at a deceptive pace. Its also decpetively clear and well crafted, hiden by some very smart word play and ideas its a familar story told well. Its Trading Places with great world design and less gags. Its just brilliant and so well timed. Done and gone but gone with such a perfect, grim ending. It leaves you actively wanting no more as more would upset its neigh-perfect. Just fantastic.

Anyway Universal Soldier 2 ends next Prog... I think this one will be me CC then Shadows...

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 07 March, 2018, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 06 March, 2018, 09:39:59 PM
Shadows as with the beginning so with the ending - absolutely fantastic. This series is Milligan at his best.

I swing back and forth on my favourite Milligan strip (Is it The Dead? Is it Tribal Memories? Is it Bad Company I&II?), but Shadows is the one I come back to over and over again, and would love to have in a glossy hardback edition.  I've bored long-time boarders repeatedly with my tale of using Shadows as the basis for a well-received college exam essay on mental mapping, but have I also confessed that it introduced me to T. S. Eliot where my schooldays had conspicuously failed to engender any interest, never mind affection?  It is, as Colin, says, clear, well-crafted, compact and self-contained - and oh the marvel of multi-coloured larval-form Elson: an under-appreciated gem if ever there was one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 March, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
Wow Dry Run  doesn't get a good start does it.  I mean we have this character Flair who is ANGRY and uncontrolled. So much so that her passions run over when she realises the woman they've handed over to the cliched big bad is skinned or a map tattooed on her back. Apalled she draws her blade but is restrained by her clamer headed colleagues. 6 pages later after some relatively random violence she draws her blade again this time to kill and innocent for no other reason than she'll get in the way...

errr...

...and its this and the other just unconnected stuff that's just thrown at the strip that reminds me why I remember so little of it...

... mind prior I also forgot to comment on the end of Final Solution and to be honest its 'cos in re-reading it pretty thin. It lacks the impact I remember and to be honest aside from glorious Simon Harrison art followed by some lovely Colin MacNeill art the story goes grip in the way I remember and feels a little forced. Big shame this one didn't hold up to my memory of it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 20 March, 2018, 10:34:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 March, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
I also forgot to comment on the end of Final Solution and to be honest its 'cos in re-reading it pretty thin.

Ok I haven't re-read it, but surely there has to be an element of knowing what happens tempering one's view of this. Even if the rest of it is, as you say a"bit thin", Johnny's death has to be the most shocking event in any 2000AD story ever. Certainly when read at the time with no spoilers.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 March, 2018, 06:11:20 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 20 March, 2018, 10:34:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 March, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
I also forgot to comment on the end of Final Solution and to be honest its 'cos in re-reading it pretty thin.

Ok I haven't re-read it, but surely there has to be an element of knowing what happens tempering one's view of this. Even if the rest of it is, as you say a"bit thin", Johnny's death has to be the most shocking event in any 2000AD story ever. Certainly when read at the time with no spoilers.

That's a very fair point, but doesn't change the fact that on re-read it didn't hold up as well as I remember, even from previous re-read. In part I think its also fair to say as it doesn't hold but to the high esteem I held it in.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Blue Cactus on 21 March, 2018, 11:27:13 AM
I'm enjoying this phase of your slog Colin as it's covering the period I was away from the Prog, though I've read the 'bigger' stories, like the Final Solution, in reprints. I've never read a single episode of Dry Run though, or Shadows. Has Shadows ever been reprinted? Surely it's prime Meg floppy material, being by a relatively 'big name' writer, and neatly self-contained.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 March, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
You know what it doesn't appear to have been?????!!!!!!

I've just checked Barney (Barney is your friend http://www.2000ad.org (http://www.2000ad.org)) and it has no reprints showing in its entry?

Surely this can't be right? Is this a rare over sight from Barney OR a rare oversight from Tharg? Are there any ownership issues? Very strange.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 21 March, 2018, 02:02:28 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 20 March, 2018, 10:34:08 PM
Ok I haven't re-read it, but surely there has to be an element of knowing what happens tempering one's view of this. Even if the rest of it is, as you say a"bit thin", Johnny's death has to be the most shocking event in any 2000AD story ever. Certainly when read at the time with no spoilers.

I have to say, I didn't like it. I didn't like it at the time, and I've never really changed my mind. Back then, it felt like a rot was starting to set in. We'd come off the pretty gloomy conclusion to Song of the Surfer and it kind of felt like the old guard were wrapping up their stories. Final Solution felt to me as if, rather than come up with a story in which Johnny's death was the inescapable consequence, it started with the decision that Johnny would die and worked backwards from there. It felt contrived and, frankly, unnecessary.

And it opened up a void in the prog's line-up that the editorial team seemed ill-equipped to fill. The aforementioned Dry Run is a strong contender for the worst-written thing 2000AD has ever run and I had a strong feeling that the editorial team was asleep at the wheel. OK, maybe no one had the time to work GFD-scale fixing on the scripts (although MacKenzie never seemed that reticent about re-writing other strips) but can anyone honestly imagine a pitch synopsis of Dry Run that didn't sound like a cliché-ridden pile of old toss?

We already had the terrible Fleisher Harlem Heroes and then we added Dry Run and the brain-meltingly tedious Chronos Carnival meaning that although we had Necropolis, half the prog was basically rubbish. These gave way to the equally terrible Fleisher Rogue and Junker. Ennis comes in as a patchy replacement for Wagner on Dredd, Millar's execrable Sam Slade revival... it wasn't good.

Final Solution will always be symptomatic of that inexorable slide through the patchy 700s towards the nadir of the 800s for me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 21 March, 2018, 05:14:52 PM
I enjoyed 'Final Solution' to a certain extent when it originally ran - specifically, when it was drawn by Simon Harrison. (No disrespect intended to Colin MacNeil, who is a great artist, but I loved Harrison's take on mutation.) I read it again a month or two ago, and I didn't think much of it at all. I still love Harrison's art: his McNulty is a particular highlight. I also had no problem with the idea of killing Johnny off and replacing him with a new lead dog - I like the legacy character idea, if publishers and writers properly commit to it - and I didn't even mind Feral. But I felt the ending, and the script in general, seemed pretty flat: I'd probably rate it as the weakest S/D story.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 21 March, 2018, 05:27:02 PM
One thing that does occur to me mind, is that these issues were not limited to Tooth alone.  Across the comics industry there was an incredible amount of dross through the nineties.  Publishers went ballistic with variant covers, lenticular covers, covered covers ... Crossovers for their own sake ... Core characters had their lines expanded to multiple titles ... Rob Liefield ...

It was just a bad time for comics in general, particularly after the heady days of the eighties.  The focus seemed to be on investment rather than enjoyment. (Okay, how many of us have used that line on our wives / husbands / partners to justify the expenditure?)  The industry really seemed to have lost something.

Tooth seemed to recapture something of it's original spirit in the late nineties.  Even in the last few years before the Rebellion takeover it showed signs of rekindled life.  It does seem that this is where Tooth departed company with the rest of the comics industry.  Since then it has gone from strength to strength.  Even the recent blip far outshines so much else that is out there.  Arguably we have been spoilt in recent years and perhaps have been a little unfair on the current creative team.  Considering the writers and artists they are up against it must be incredibly intimidating to join that roster.  I wonder if it is worth taking a wider view?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 21 March, 2018, 06:09:02 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 21 March, 2018, 05:27:02 PM
Crossovers for their own sake ...
Weren't they all?-)

Notable exception: Trifecta!

Quote
(Okay, how many of us have used that line on our wives / husbands / partners to justify the expenditure?) 

I like that 'the collection' never did prove valuable, and looks like it never will. Buying for investment always felt... wrong.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 21 March, 2018, 07:00:19 PM
Quote from: Fungus on 21 March, 2018, 06:09:02 PM
I like that 'the collection' never did prove valuable, and looks like it never will. Buying for investment always felt... wrong.

Completely agree. They were printing 100,000 of each of these things at one point, almost everything decent has had a more accessible reprint (notable exception identified above!), why should old 2000ADs be valuable?  They should be easily available as delicious sensory experiences for the prognocenti, not hoarded as investments...

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 21 March, 2018, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 March, 2018, 07:00:19 PM
Quote from: Fungus on 21 March, 2018, 06:09:02 PM
I like that 'the collection' never did prove valuable, and looks like it never will. Buying for investment always felt... wrong.

Completely agree. The prog in particular: they were printing 100,000 of each of these things at one point, almost everything decent has had a more accessible reprint (notable exception identified above!), why should old 2000ADs be valuable?  They should be easily available as delicious sensory experiences for the prognocenti, not hoarded as investments...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 21 March, 2018, 07:02:37 PM
AND WHY IS THERE NO EDIT BUTTON SO THAT I HIT THE QUOTE BUTTON BY MISTAKE? -sorry-
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 22 March, 2018, 06:10:42 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 March, 2018, 07:00:19 PM
They should be easily available as delicious sensory experiences for the prognocenti, not hoarded as investments...

Amen!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 March, 2018, 06:55:02 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 22 March, 2018, 06:10:42 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 March, 2018, 07:00:19 PM
They should be easily available as delicious sensory experiences for the prognocenti, not hoarded as investments...

Amen!

Testify.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 23 March, 2018, 12:15:23 PM
S'right. Yup.

My thoughts on this era in particualr are that editorial was struggling to appeal both to younger readers (the classic 8-12 of the 1970s period) as well as to the now 20-somethings who had grown up with the Prog, and also to potential new adult readers of any age who had heard that comics were trendy.

It all ends up as a bit of a mess, with things like Chronos Carnival being all-the-way child friendly, while Dry Run has a child-friendly cliche story, but more teen/adult friendly art as it's pretty nasty stuff being depicted, and then things like The Horned God and especially The Final Solution being very grown-up, not least for its overt referencing of the Holocaust. (Although I'd agree that Dry Run IS a strong contender for worst ever 2000AD script, even compared to the upcoming Junker! But, you know, the basic idea is good on paper, and the writer was the friend of a friend of the editors...)

Moving into the 700s, my feeling is that Burton was always chasing the 'appeal to everyone, especially children' angle, while Alan 'Acid House' McKenzie was chasing the trendy crowd, with both somewhat coasting on Wagner and Mills to keep the regular readers happy. The good thing is there were a lot of new series, short stories and such, so lots to sample even if not all to everyone's tastes.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 23 March, 2018, 04:08:43 PM
I concir with Jim and Alex here

The Final Solution seems designed backwards - we want to kill off Alpha ("because Carlos is gone and Wagner is gone", "because I've been told to cut back my workload and we don't want this particular one falling into enemy hands", "because Strontium Dog is old school are all about the new bold COMICS ARE FOR ADULTS"  etc...) - whatever the reason, it didnt feel like an "in story" reason for it to happen, but a victim of external forces on both the creators, the comic and the industry itself.

So you have expansion (Crisis as the start of this), coupled with Steve MacManus' attention being with the shiney new world, Burton indulging his fanboy with Fleischer and McKenzie pulling the comic towards "hip" ratehr than teh comic pulling the hip towards it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 March, 2018, 07:45:44 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 23 March, 2018, 04:08:43 PM
...Burton indulging his fanboy with Fleischer and McKenzie pulling the comic towards "hip" rather than the comic pulling the hip towards it.

Love that line at the end and working my way gruelingly through the late 600s and there's some pretty rough stuff here. I do think Fleischer's Harlem Heroes is so guilty of this. The characters seem to be crafted to echo the 'grim and gritty' pre-Image types of X-World comics. They are meant to be so hard and alternative they fall utterly flat and drag down with them any chance you can engage with the story. In 694 I've just read the death of Trips (I think he was called) and its meant to impact and it just doesn't. The's all this big dramatic action, impacting big dramatic story points and it doesn't matter 'cos I couldn't care less about the characters, in trying so hard to be different they are so cliche and hollow.

Not far away John Wagner and Carlos have some Judge cadets I barely know trying to lead an urchin I know even less, away from Judge Mortis, and man do I care, its chilling and tense, cos the masters at their game have managed to make me care about folks I just don't even know yet. He makes the drama matter.

The contrast is stark!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 March, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
Oh and Prog 695

Nest to Ukko "But there's always been more to Slaine than just some muscle-bound barbarian. It's an attempt to redefine the hero. To convey the matriarchal origin of myth."

Okay, okay Pat we get it already, you've been telling us that pretty clearly for 2 1/2 books to this point no need spell it out!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 March, 2018, 09:01:45 PM
By 699 I'm skim reading 3 of the strips, and didn't particularly enjoy the Future Shock. Any current melancholys are nothing compared to this surely.

That levels us Dredd and I find my option of Necropolis remains consistent with what it was almost 10 years ago (gulp) when I last read it, all be it then in one go, not episodically. So in a supreme act of self-reference (well look at the title of the thread) and laziness I'm goin' in for the full self quote. In summary for those that baulk at such egotism, its good, great even, but not the best, nor the absolute classic I think it is and struggles to live up to its exceptional build up. Mind with this build up what could!

QuoteME IN 2009: .... Deadman was a classic and stood up really well on re-reading. The demise in Dredd's faith in the system had been brillantly played out over, what was it 3, maybe 4 years and this was the big climax, it had a lot, a heck of a lot to live up to. Have to say I was pleasently surprised. Its a pretty good 'epic' nicely told in must parts. Not fantastic and compared to the build up I mentioned not as good but still a lot better than I remembered. The art was glorious, no surprises there but the way the tale [is] told was great. I loved the way there was a slow build of tension. The enemy gathering at the gates. The cut to Dredd and the terrible consequences aren't really seen until he arrives at the city. You can see a bit of where Morrison might have got some ideas for Final Crisis here!

Anyway the main thing I thought about after re-reading was did this mark the end of Judge Death as a truly scary, effective villian? Due to the nature of the cut away to Dredd at the peak of the villians plans one problem with the tale is I don't think we get to see Death really in charge of this evil masterplan. We don't see him marshalling the terrible fate he has in store for Mega City One. On top of that I felt as though once the Dark Sisters were out the way Wagner didn't know quite how to sustain the end. It felt to me at least on this reading as though he was saying 'Look there's the story I've had to put Death in it but I really can't come up with an interesting way to end his story here. Lets just move on shall we'.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 26 March, 2018, 06:33:10 AM
I'm with you on this Colin. There was something disjointed about Necropolis that made it feel unsatisfying.  It does work a little better as a complete story but not by much.  This is such a shame as there are so many great ideas but they just don't seem to gel together properly. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 26 March, 2018, 12:37:08 PM
I'm just doing my write up of The Final Solution for DogBreath, and it makes for a depressing time! 

The thing that strikes me most is how much my opinion is tied into those "dark days", both in teh comic and in my own life.

The story (including the No-Go Job) ran from Jun 88 and didnt conclude for over two years!

So it spanned me leaving Secondary School where I ahd been a very happy geek looking forward to going on to further education (obsessed with Strontium Dog, Thrash MEtal and Games Workshop) to me leaving Sixth Form in 1990 (having had a miserable experience of encountering smug posh people) and the slide of the comic towards trend chasing the very stuff I hated - Dance Music, the Indie bands that the smug posh people liked etc.. Meantime, Metal has gone all Guns N Roses on me, while GW have ditched their licenced stuff that I loved them for, and gone all 40K.... sad times.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 26 March, 2018, 01:34:24 PM
Also, Simon Harrison stops doing the story and it sits for months, but Alan McKenzie can find time to schedule him to do a 12 part Bradley story where the lectures us on good taste in music.. wass Roxilla not enough - the contempt for the audience is palpable at this point, even if it wasnt intentional

also, I reckon Garth Ennis would ahve given us some brilliant Strontium Dog stories if he had been left to play in the Pre-Final Solution playground with Alpha as his hero - I mean, Alpha is a perfect match for Ennis, surely?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 26 March, 2018, 03:10:33 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 25 March, 2018, 09:01:45 PM
Anyway the main thing I thought about after re-reading was did this mark the end of Judge Death as a truly scary, effective villian? Due to the nature of the cut away to Dredd at the peak of the villians plans one problem with the tale is I don't think we get to see Death really in charge of this evil masterplan. We don't see him marshalling the terrible fate he has in store for Mega City One.

Necropolis (including the Countdown) is not just my favourite epic, but also my favourite Judge Dredd story, so it was interesting to read your comments on Judge Death's comparatively minimal screen time. This has never bothered me – I think it's a strength of the story. By this stage, we've had three tales in which Death is a personal, physical threat, but in Necropolis, he's much more the artist creating his masterwork, with MC-1 as his canvass. I don't need to see his deliberations - his 'art', this new City-of-the-Damned-done-right setting he's created, speaks for itself, and his vision is accordingly present in every aspect of the story. You obviously need to see the DJs get personally involved in the action at least once - I love the fact that this is delegated to much-more frightening Mortis instead of Death. Almost thirty years later, this is still the character's defining sequence.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: feathers on 26 March, 2018, 03:40:55 PM
From where I am, Necropolis is the last great Dredd epic.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 26 March, 2018, 05:49:21 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 26 March, 2018, 03:10:33 PMBy this stage, we've had three tales in which Death is a personal, physical threat, but in Necropolis, he's much more the artist creating his masterwork, with MC-1 as his canvass. I don't need to see his deliberations - his 'art', this new City-of-the-Damned-done-right setting he's created, speaks for itself, and his vision is accordingly present in every aspect of the story.

For me it's more a question of progression: this time it isn't Death and his goons coming to MC-1 as villains, or even Dredd and Anderson going to Deadworld, this time it's Deadworld itself coming to Earth.  The cleverest -and scariest- part of the whole thing is that most of it isn't even real: it's all in everyone's heads, ordinary people are doing it to themselves and to each other (starvation, suicide, obeying orders): even the Judges, even Kraken, even Dredd himself.   It's an apocalypse of illusion, despair, coercion and collusion, not some skeleton-guy squeezing hearts.

Against this backdrop Death the individual - while indeed the architect present in his design, as Greg observes - just isn't a physical threat, something Phobia herself notes in her address: "...they are so few, and you are so many".  The idea of Deathworld, the world where Death is all there is, that's what is destroying MC-1.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 26 March, 2018, 07:00:48 PM
Quote from: feathers on 26 March, 2018, 03:40:55 PM
From where I am, Necropolis is the last great Dredd epic.

Wow really?

So, just off the top of my head, since Necropolis we had:

The Pit
Origins
Tour of Duty
Day of Chaos
Trifecta

(Plus other lesser epics like The Dommsday Scenario and Every Empire Falls, not to mention stuff like Wilderlands.)

Some of these count surely?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 March, 2018, 07:52:30 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 26 March, 2018, 03:10:33 PM
Necropolis (including the Countdown) is not just my favourite epic, but also my favourite Judge Dredd story, so it was interesting to read your comments on Judge Death's comparatively minimal screen time. This has never bothered me – I think it's a strength of the story...

I actually think the cut away from Death's moment of apparent trimuph is really effective, from a story point of view. After all it doesn't particularly make for a great story to see the logistics of marshalling hundreds, nah thousands, nah MILLIONS of folks to their death BUT it kinda underlines the problems with Death as a character. Seeing him trimuph, at least directly, is kinda dull.

This is emphasised for me by the fact that once Dredd blows up Agee and the sisters are dispensed with Wagner moves quickly to brush away the Dark Judges without too much fanfare.

Deadworld shows that you need much more space and time to effectively show what the world would be like  while Death starts to off hundreds of millions of folks. It by necessity has to be a very different story to Necropolis, where we only see the horror of Death's Mega City One through the lovely section with the cadets being run down my Mortis.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 10:39:10 AM
Like The Final Solution, Necropolis is interesting just for the time it appeared - imagine if the comic had folded with prog 700 - would both tales be "good" send offs for their respective protagonists? You'd probably have to kill Dredd at the end mind!

There is a real sense that 2000AD is shaking off its old skin and a very different beast is emerging, one adolescently embarassed about its previous incarnation
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Aaron A Aardvark on 27 March, 2018, 11:02:15 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 10:39:10 AM
There is a real sense that 2000AD is shaking off its old skin and a very different beast is emerging, one adolescently embarassed about its previous incarnation

I think that's smack on the nose.
In a way, Necropolis finished a story started in Prog 2 and the strip took a long time to find anything else to do. It would have been a decent send-off.
"Oh... he's dead? Well, as long as Ferral doesn't take over. He's a right twat." SD was a strip that badly needed a rest. Johnny's didn't affect me anything like as much as John Probe's.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 12:02:47 PM
Feral is in many ways Strontium Poochie....

Quote from: Aaron A Aardvark on 27 March, 2018, 11:02:15 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 10:39:10 AM
There is a real sense that 2000AD is shaking off its old skin and a very different beast is emerging, one adolescently embarassed about its previous incarnation

I think that's smack on the nose.
In a way, Necropolis finished a story started in Prog 2 and the strip took a long time to find anything else to do. It would have been a decent send-off.
"Oh... he's dead? Well, as long as Ferral doesn't take over. He's a right twat." SD was a strip that badly needed a rest. Johnny's didn't affect me anything like as much as John Probe's.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 27 March, 2018, 12:39:52 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 12:02:47 PM
Feral is in many ways Strontium Poochie....

It's not a phrase you hear often, but I think Ennis' version is much more interesting than Grant's original... or Wagner's abomination, for that matter. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 March, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 10:39:10 AM
There is a real sense that 2000AD is shaking off its old skin and a very different beast is emerging, one adolescently embarassed about its previous incarnation

Yeah I definately feel this is the case and have tried to allude to the fact here, though not as elegently. I do think this has been happening for sometime (in re-read terms) and while in the late 600s (and beyond) we see the awkward fruition of all this, which honestly won't go away entirely until towards the end of David Bishops time if you ask me, but we'll see, it started as early as Prog 500 if you ask me, or at least first budding shots of this transformation.

I mentioned then that Bad Company and the development in Slaine (well I think I did, I certainly thought it)  were the first signs of that. Why then rather than say Halo Jones issues etc, well I think there was a more conserted effort to change the title at this point with 520 following on so quickly afterwards.

Just look how ill fitting Mean Team started to look quickly compared to what else was present in the early 500s.

Certainly the evidence is far more in your face as we near 700, but its been coming for a while I'd say, and lets be honest, so as to end on a positive, often with some very good effects... often not always!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 12:51:07 PM
True!  Though I think Ennis might have been better served inheriting Alpha and the existing set up than having to reinvent the strip from ground up  - it ticks all his boxes surely? I think we could have actually had that "new era" of stront that they promised us when Carlos went.  I'm right in thinking that outside of Judgement Day (we won't speak of the Dark Star resurrection!)  Ennis nevr wrote for Alpha?

Quote from: TordelBack on 27 March, 2018, 12:39:52 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 27 March, 2018, 12:02:47 PM
Feral is in many ways Strontium Poochie....

It's not a phrase you hear often, but I think Ennis' version is much more interesting than Grant's original... or Wagner's abomination, for that matter.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 March, 2018, 05:12:06 PM
Well in Prog 600 I commented on how Tharg had all but failed to provide a launch Prog with a chaotic mix of ongoing strips marking the issue, but it was a good read. In

Prog 700

By contrast he gets all his ducks in a row and we have all new strips (well one one off which I'll come to). The trouble is its an awkward beast. Its not bad persay but it really emphasises the change 2000ad is going through. Its like the comic has been hanging out with the cool kids and not quite fitting in, but hasn't the confidence to be it own thing yet. Stood next to Deadline and the like the old storys such as Dredd and Anderson could look a little dated, if they were not created by such master as Wagner and Ron Smith, Grant and Ranson and they are classic.

Time Flies and Hewligan, while having a real scene of fun, feel forced and in that a little trite. As I recall I enjoy Hewligan's much more as it goes on? We'll see.

Its Nemesis and Deadlock that really show the schism most though. Being as it is a strip with classic characters that have emboddied 2000ad darker, anti-authoriatian edge, yet here rather over egging the puddin' and actually coming off a bit daft. Pat Mills hasn't started hanging around with that cool kid Tony Skinner yet, but it reads like they've been chatting and frankly I'm not looking forward to whats to come there!

Mind as a one off it moves aside to be replaced by the return of Harlem Heroes take too and there the contrast between strips feels even wider!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 April, 2018, 05:39:58 PM
Well I've rattled through the last twelve Progs of 1990 and so I'll rattle through some thoughts

1. John Wagner's run as regular Dredd writer ends with a bit of a whimper alas... even the PJ Story 'What I did during Necropolis' is relatively weak.
1a. Though that said I love the debate between the senior Judge's about whether citizen's should get a vite. Dredd shines in those moments

2. Garth Ennis's run, which I'm fonder of than many I think, we'll see how we do on re-read, starts with a nice enough opening in 711

3. The creators profiles which appear sporadically after 700 don't half make the creators see a bit up themselves. I used to think they seemed so cool!

4. So is the fella in Junker meant to be an edgier cool Han Solo? If so why does he just come across as a complete dick?

5. Hewligan Haircut is defo better than Time Flies, neither of them really holds up any more.

6. Unlike Shamballa which is just brilliant on every level. One day I'm going to try to get bold and rank the early Anderson stories, will be bloomin' hard but Shamballa will surely be near the top?

7. How much do I love Bitz, the answer is quite a lot. A lovely compact flashback of 8 bit fun.

8. Much as I'll be happy to give Mark Millar a hard time later I do absolutely adore Silo, its Soooooo good.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 01 April, 2018, 06:26:02 PM
My feelings on Silo are thus: it could have got away with the The Shining bit,  or it could have got away with the Die Hard bit,  but not both.  When the second 'homage'rolled around I went from enjoying a seriously stylish strip to feeling like Millat was taking me for a fool.

And yeah,  'Wot I did during Necropolis' is so sub-par for both writer and character that to this day I generally remember it as being an Ennis strip.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 April, 2018, 08:07:22 AM
Okay well that was weird. I'd realised I'd missed the Winter Specials out of my re-read so grabbed them from '88, '89 and 90 to catch up... now I've owned the '89 special since I caught my collection up a few years back and I don't think I've ever read it. I know when I bought it I'd put it aside to read as part of my catch up but seem to have missed this one when doing so...

... not that I missed much. I mean the Arthur Ranson Dredd looks great, but...

Tyranny Rex does not look like that.

Medivac is pretty poor and Bellardinelli's art doesn't work at all here

Even some of the text pieces are reprint AND

...Well the end of Rogue Trooper - The Hit, well old skool Rogue in general is very forgettable.

...maybe I did read it and just found nothing in it to recall!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 April, 2018, 07:37:23 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 February, 2018, 08:57:36 PM
1989

Not quite sure what to say about 1989... well actually maybe I do. When talking about 1988 I said this looking ahead

QuoteYeah there are some real highlights... just not as many as I've become used to. So 1988 makes it clear that 2000ad grew too fast to quick and needed to take a breather for a moment before learning just what it can do with its new shape and form...

... now in 1989 ... if memory serves... it might just do that... though it won't all be plain sailing either... lets find out together shall we.

I was damned close, but 1989, or at least the bulk of it, is very similar to 1988. ...

Yeah Prog 650 came just a little too late to save 1989. Its not a bad year, not by any stretch, but it continues the dip from the magnificence of the mid eighties and when it stinks it really bloomin' stinks.

So I'll guide you through the annuals and the specials and then we'll head into the new decade.... full of fresh hope and A levels (well it was for me!) ... and we might have enough for another classic, or we might still be a little too choppy... I look forward to finding out.

So there we have the last two years, and my predictions of what was to come in the following year and now I've finished

1990

and have to say I'm glad I said
Quotewe might still be a little too choppy...
cos that's very much what 1990 is. I mean don't get me wrong there are some real highlights, Song of the Surfer, end of Deadman and build up to Necropolis, Necropolis itself is pretty damned good, end of Zenith Phase III. Luckily its not all endings that are good as we have Shadows and yeah I'll say it Silo oh and another Anderson classic* BUT those endings are symptonatic of 2000ad's problems at the moment.

So yeah as stuff ends there's just not yet the quality to replace stuff, some new strips are fine, but not great, Medivac, Armoured Gideon I enjoy but they are not standout. and some stuff is just poor, I'll not harp on again and name names.

Stuff is changing and the good times have ended. Change is good, but change is hard and sometimes as well as looking at the doors that are opening you need to look at the doors that are closing a little more closely. 2000ad in 1990 is right in the middle if its teenage outburst. It cares too much about the fact that Jason Donovan is a bit rubbish, I mean its not as if we didn't know that, and forgetting what made itself so special as it grew up, its talents and creativity. The fact that the chaotic energy of childhood is far more exciting and rebellious than the forced pretensions of teenage years when we get too distracted by trying to be cool and looking at what others are doing. We think we're being cool and individual by joining the cool crowd, but in reality we're in danger of being 'so alternative its conservative' and frankly when we look back we'll be embarassed.

I was lucky when all this was going on I was in the middle of my own teen outburst and as such I loved a lot of this stuff. What stands out to me how much of the stuff I really enjoyed reading when this came out Horned God, Hewligan's, Time Flies, Bradley etc just doesn't hold up to me now. That's cool it was meant for me then, not me know, but me now is getting really bored with it all!

So yeah choppy was a very good good word to describe 1990, the lows and more tellingly medicority, make the highs feels all the better. There's just not enough of them and the Progs slump continues with what is very possibly the weakest year for the Galaxy's Greatest yet... chillingly I'm not entering 1991 and starting my job in Yorkshire Bank with any optimism that things will be picking up any time soon!

*You know there's a case to be made that Anderson to date (1990 date not now) is the most consistently brilliant thrill in the Prog. It tends to get a little overlooked by other highlights, Zenith, Bad Company, Halo etc etc but I'm always delighted when its in and it has much to say and stretches things far more than other strips. I do love Anderson and its had so many highlights its almost as if we're been blinded to its brilliance!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: feathers on 03 April, 2018, 11:18:02 AM
Anderson was great, and always good quality.  It's funny how things slip away, I'm at the end of 95 and just been reminded how long it's been since her last appearance by the introduction of Judge Janus - I assume she moved straight to the Megazine in what was undoubtedly a big loss for the weekly.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 03 April, 2018, 07:16:31 PM
I am part way through the Shamballa volume in the Mega Collection. I originally wasn't bothered but then Alan Grant named it as his favourite story out of everything he has done (at the 40th). I bought it there and then and even got him to sign it. It has just been sitting in my pile of stuff till now. Having finally got round to it, I think I can safely say Shamballa is just fantastic.

Indeed it is the sort of thing we could do with in the Prog right now (but that's a whole other debate).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 April, 2018, 08:59:57 PM
The saving of early 1991

Its getting pretty rough out there. 2000ad has a venerable history of dark heroes who defie expectation and the cliche of the hero. Dennehy in Junker isn't one of those he's just a charmless twat. I'm almost enjoying reading it to see just how much of a twat they will make him... but then it dawns on me what a joyous twat he is and I go back to not liking it.

Alas Rogue Friday in the Golden Fox Rebellion isn't much better. At least Rogue Friday isn't a twat he's just dull.

There's some lukewarm Future Shocks and while I've always been a defender of Ennis Dredd I'm wondering if this will continue as I'm finding Death Aid pretty flat, especially when we get a lovely Wagner and Yeowell one off pop up.

Anderson - Engram is great but alone its a struggle to save this pretty dire start to the year... I mean a run of Bitz is becoming one of the highlights of the Prog and I was genuinely happy when Roxilla waxed lyrical about a band I'd heard of and actually really like (Lush for those interested).

This tricky period for Tharg is of course however saved by a classic, that for reasons that I'm sure baffle you as much as me has never been reprint and that of course is the letter printed in Prog 715. A masterpiece, cleverly defying expectation, sharp, witty and endlessly entertaining. This letter at first seem to be a plea, you then reflect on it as an artist poem exploring the phrase 'Careful what you wish for' then the pathos and irony hits you. It works on so many levels.

I'm sure in some far off database Buttonman has this highlighted in a special colour, just incase he wants to read it again. He doesn't need to of course as this favourite of all the missives has been read so many times he's commited it to memory.

After the joy of the picture I'm sure we will all discuss in a couple of Prog's time the big question on everyone's lips is whatever happen to that great artist. Whatever happened to Colin Taylor?


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 16 April, 2018, 10:58:10 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 April, 2018, 08:59:57 PM
Alas Rogue Friday in the Golden Fox Rebellion isn't much better. At least Rogue Friday isn't a twat he's just dull.

I'll this for the late Mr. Fleisher, he had a great ear for Rogue Trooper titles: Golden Fox Rebellion, Saharan Ice Belt War, Apocalypse Dreadnaught - every bit as good as Ascent to Buzzard 3, From Hell to Eternity or personal fave All Hell on the Dix-I Front: these are stories I want to read (sadly, I did).

Anyway, I heard Colin Taylor went into the steam tunnels under the local library and was never seen again.  But sometimes, when the staff come in in the morning, the Graphic Novels section has been reshelved according some incomprehensible and possibly non-euclidean system.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 April, 2018, 09:02:14 PM
So like mid March until the glories discussed below have much to back them up. Some nice Wagner Dredd's drop in to make me realise how poor Death Aid actually was. Some interesting shorts, including some for regular stories do their best to shore things up, but really its down to V for Ven...

...I mean Brigand Doom to help keep the Prog afloat. I mean its a pretty lazy comparison to label Brigand Doom a V copy. But having read V recently as it goes the only reason its lazy is cos its so bloomin' obvious. Now that's not to say its anywhere near as good as V. Its not. However its does do its own things better and its a real blast. It really eggs on the dark so 90s unsubtle satire. At least here McKenzie bites at a target more worth than Jason Donavan, Pop and Goth Culture. Its sharp, its exciting, its funny when it wants to be ... really its exactly what it says it is, its 2000ad does V and the thing is 2000ad does V is a good idea.

And Jez doesn't David D'Antiquis do a perfect job on the art!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 23 April, 2018, 12:39:35 PM
Having only read V many years after Brigand Doom left the Prog I've never made that comparison before, but you're absolutely right. The plotting doesn't live up to that but the art does, I reckon. And I do think McKenzie got a lot of things right with character, setting and tone.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 April, 2018, 09:09:30 PM
I saw the cover of Prog 723 and my heart sank. I have to be honest its not a good Prog.

While art is always very subjective I have to say this is one of the hardest Progs I can ever remember on the eye. Yes we have a Wagner Dredd, but I find Vanyo's Dredd really ackward and stilted and it looks so dated. I love Carl Critchlow's current work, love it, but his painted work on Nemesis amd Deadlock is the very defination of the mud period.

Next might be more controversial but I'm no fan of Cassanovas, again I find his art awkward, this figure work just doesn't move for me and I sometimes find his storytelling clunky. Oh and I don't like his design work and particularly his robots ... which given he's doing Robo-Hunter here doesn't bode well.

Now Jim McCarthy's work I can enjoy, he's not a favourite however and here the colouring strangely flatters his line work... oh and speaking of both the colour not working and controverisal I'm not liking Ron Smith on Golden Fox Rebellion. For me Ron Smith is past his best at this point and again the colours just scream at you... not in a good way.

Finally while he's not my favourite I do like David Hine's art and he's perfect for low key tale of Tao De Moto... but two pages of pleasing art just ain't enough in the Prog...

... I know others will utterly disagree and that's now it should be, art is like that, but for me behind the cluttered uninspiring cover the Prog isn't the sight for sore eyes it can be...

... I'm such a negative nelly and I've not even mentioned the stories...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 23 April, 2018, 09:42:19 PM
Ha - at 'uninspiring' I guessed the cover in question   :)
It's the kind of cover that makes you wonder if the prog had given up - and a jumping-on prog, too...

Brigand Doom was moody, beyond that I can't see the appeal. Always felt the strips of the time did it a favour, by comparison. A pale V.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 23 April, 2018, 09:52:33 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 April, 2018, 09:09:30 PM
For me Ron Smith is past his best at this point and again the colours just scream at you... not in a good way.

No artist could make that story readable (well, maybe Cam Kennedy), so I won't blame Ron.   But the colours are indeed vile.

OTOH, I quite like Cassanova's insanely busy art on RoboHunter: it's not entirely successful,  but I can see why Tharg thought he was a natural fit.

Hine's work is definitely pick of that litter.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 25 April, 2018, 01:32:55 PM
Mud aside, I remember really enjoying the ridiculous mystery angle of Nemesis & Deadlock. It's kind of a perfect example of why murder mystery comics ought to work really well - but ultimately don't. (Basically, you have to set up a bunch of possible crooks in episode 1, then each episode explains why each in turn couldn't be the real killer. There's no room to seed careful clues about who the villain actually is; Mills doesn't even try, just playing the whole thing for laughs and picking his usual holes at elitist types).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 April, 2018, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 25 April, 2018, 01:32:55 PM
Mud aside, I remember really enjoying the ridiculous mystery angle of Nemesis & Deadlock. It's kind of a perfect example of why murder mystery comics ought to work really well - but ultimately don't. (Basically, you have to set up a bunch of possible crooks in episode 1, then each episode explains why each in turn couldn't be the real killer. There's no room to seed careful clues about who the villain actually is; Mills doesn't even try, just playing the whole thing for laughs and picking his usual holes at elitist types).

The trouble is the laughs just don't work for me and the whole thing feels laboured and forced and while Mills is trying to deal with big issues under the fun and be so cool and alternative, alas it just feels so twee, the very last thing I think he wants it to be.

Anyway Junker... bloody hell that didn't half go on!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 May, 2018, 11:43:24 AM
As ever with my re-read detours into reading other things can derail me briefly but back on track and storming through 1991's Progs... alas 1991's progs just aren't storming. There is some good stuff, but I find I'm enjoying stuff in another, better period, I'd have been quite dismissive of.

As I enter the 740's here a quick summary.

Judge Dredd - Surprised how many times Jon Wagner pops up during the 'Ennis' run. Always enjoyable but to be fair I have no real problem with Ennis' stuff. Its all perfectly good, if never outstanding.

Millar-Hunter - Well I've discussed the art, just not for me at all. The story is however just so flat and feels to like any purpose. It has none of the charm and wit of the original, yet at the same time nothing to really galvanise it into something different. Its just there, a charmless lump.

Mean Machine - Sorry did not like this at all. Again just felt so superfluous and strangely for John Wagner the humour often missed. Not helped by the fact that talented though Richard Dolan almost certainly is his art looks terrible and another example of the mud years, very possibly largely due to the printing?

Rogue Trooper - The icey one
... christ was that only 12 parts, felt longer. I have problems with the original Rogue which I've blattered on about enough in the past. This has all the lack of character without the interesting ideas to back it up!

Tao De Moto - Man I want to like this so much more than I do but its not quite there. Its such an interesting idea but maybe its the 2 page format, nothing really gets going alas. Still its one of the better things in the comic at the moment!

Killing Time - Okay I really like John Smith and this one is really good... but... damn why is there always a but these days! I really don't like Chris Weston's early art. I mean Chris Weston has clearly developed into an absolute superb talent but here its all awkward and ugly. Which should support the story well, alas it doesn't as it just makes it hard on the eye rather than enhance the horror. Still superb story.

Below Zero - Despite myself I'm really enjoying this. I mean its riffing off so much contemptary stuff, like Total Recall and I'd imagine about 72 episodes of Red Dwarf and Tanner's finger gun always looks so silly and puny BUT I can't help but enjoy it. This is a prime example of a story being well served by the rubbish that surrounds it I suspect!

Bix Barton - Lovesick World - Even though the bloody rugby reference became tricky to tackle again this is my fav BB to date. Not sure why, maybe its another example of something elevated by whats around it but I found it charming and funny, when at times BB can be clumsy and forced.

So there we have a quick recap of some recent waiting / being in for work men reading ... I do wish I was in a better phase of the Prog with so much plastering, plumbing and electrics going on around me!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 12 May, 2018, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 May, 2018, 11:43:24 AM
I really don't like Chris Weston's early art. I mean Chris Weston has clearly developed into an absolute superb talent....

Glad it's not just me that thinks that. For years I didn't like his art, and I has the impression I was in the minority thinking that.

These days his Dredd especially have a real Bolland like quality. And it doesn't get any better than that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 12 May, 2018, 04:51:55 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 12 May, 2018, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 May, 2018, 11:43:24 AM
I really don't like Chris Weston's early art. I mean Chris Weston has clearly developed into an absolute superb talent....

Glad it's not just me that thinks that. For years I didn't like his art, and I has the impression I was in the minority thinking that.

These days his Dredd especially have a real Bolland like quality. And it doesn't get any better than that.

I am in total agreement his earlier work was not my favorite but now his art is top notch
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 14 May, 2018, 01:23:01 PM
I'm with you on finding Weston's early art a bit ropey in his Dredd days doing 'Crazy Barry' and the like - but for me, he stepped into high gear on Killing Time, on of my all time faves. Yes, he'd continue to get better still, but there's something about the colours and somewhat plastic-y people that really works in this inter-dimensional tale.

Is Lovesick World the one with one of Milligan's all-time best throwaway gags - the God of Leaning Against Hot Radiators? But I must say I'd like Bix Barton a touch more if he was a cricket rather than rugby man.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 May, 2018, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 14 May, 2018, 01:23:01 PM
I'm with you on finding Weston's early art a bit ropey in his Dredd days doing 'Crazy Barry' and the like - but for me, he stepped into high gear on Killing Time, on of my all time faves. Yes, he'd continue to get better still, but there's something about the colours and somewhat plastic-y people that really works in this inter-dimensional tale.

Is Lovesick World the one with one of Milligan's all-time best throwaway gags - the God of Leaning Against Hot Radiators? But I must say I'd like Bix Barton a touch more if he was a cricket rather than rugby man.

Yes (Lovesick World gas the Radiator God) and so YES - I'd be quite happy with Cricket references.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 May, 2018, 09:20:55 PM
And so the 700s roll on to their half way mark and the Prog is cleared for a jumping on Prog that will hold much of interest. What is cleared to make way is a very mixed bag.

Muzak KIller is ... okay... the Prog has a real beef with Jason Donovan back in the day. I mean he was fluff nonsense but boy did they give him a hard time... I thought it was cool back in the day, these days its just to soft a target.. I'm not enjoying Ennis as much as I remember I have to admit.

I loved Revere back in the day, this time while I enjoyed it I find this first book a little thin, it gets better as I recall in the later books this one is a little self obsessed but a fun experiment. Is this the first time we're had female nudity in 2000ad?

Dead Meat is... so... there. Its far from the worst, its just not that interesting and I think it could have been... are we meant to know why a ram can last underwater for like 8765 minutes or whatever it was? Anyway I think this one gets a second run and we'll see.

There's some rubbish Future Shocks and Slice is a bloody awful character in a poor story and Tao de Moto ends as its gone really, not quite being as good as it wants to be, not quite having the chance to develop the characters that all seem to have potential that's not realised. Shame, the end in the Prog is pretty good actually, in that the way Sopalco lead the reader and Tao on is nicely done... its just not that satisfying. I'll see how it does when I read the Yearbook.

Oh and the T.M.O. story is really bloody annoying.

I want to find more to say about this stuff... its just not interesting enough on the whole to say much about alas. Still while I'm not sure I get on with everything that we'll get in 750 I think there will be more to say... I can almost feel my hackles rising already at the though of Mrs Mills boy hanging on the street corner with that ne'er-do-well Tony Skinner, trying to look so cool...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 May, 2018, 09:07:32 PM
So 757 sees the first of 750 relaunch Prog's stories ending as ABC Warriors Kronicles of Khaos blunders to its silly conclusion. I've given my thoughts on this strip before and it really doesn't improve with re-reading. I do think Mills time working with Tony Luke brought out the worst in him. He comes across to me as trying so hard to be different, alternative and subvert the norms and tropes of heroic storytelling he forget to tell a decent story at all. It lacks the insight and wit he is capable of using. Instead not only trying to bludgeon his point home, but in doing so bashing his point so hard it loses all real shape and usefulness. Its comes across as silly and not in the fun way.

Alas at this time its not the worst culprit of the awkward teenage years 2000ad is going through. At times 2000ad reads like a kid trying to pull of a cocky swagger to prove they can be part of the cool gang. Alas in doing so forgetting very independent streak that made them cool in the first place. New Robo-hunter is the worst of this of course. Just lacking in any style and the humour just falls so flat. Its a poor, pointless story and both Millar and Williams just don't seem ready yet.

Its all starker when you compare these stories with the work of Wagner and Ennis on the Democray storyline which boils to a stunning conclusion in these issues. Everything about Dredd from 750 , Grice trying to force Dredd out to stop the vote for democracy, the vote itself and the so brilliantly underplayed aftermath. It just shows how you can pervert expectation without big guns and nonsense. Just great stuff... oh and it does of course have big guns but only pulls them out to wave about when its the right time and place to do so!

The other two strips form the middle ground between these two extremes. I enjoy Ennis' and Pugh's Strontium Dogs and MacKenzie and Ewin's Universal Soldier. Neither are as smart and different as I thought back in the day when at 19 these strips seemed so vital. They certainly aren't as smart as they like to think they are (Universal Soldier in paticular) but I'm enjoying their raw honestly. so lacking in either ABC or Robo-Hunter.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 May, 2018, 07:45:14 AM
Actually it could be said that Strontium Dogs pretty much provides the definative story of this time in 2000ad's history. Its not absolutely terrible, has some moments of cool fun and sometimes, not that often the wit works. The trouble is its not quite as smart as it would like to be, hasn't realised that excessive violence and gore isn't an answer to weak stories. Mainly though like many teens Feral, its led is ackward around women and while at times has his moments can also be a great big ugly monster.

So while I am quite enjoying it, its not as good as what its developed from and really just needs to calm down and stop trying so hard.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2018, 07:45:35 AM
1991

Is pretty easy to review.

Worst year in Thrillpower - like EVER dude.

There are highlights, but they are very thin on the ground. Anderson bookends the year well with Engram, John Smith while not quite the writer he'll become has two great stories and the best thing is Wagner elevating Ennis as they combine to bring the democrary storyline to a powerful intelligent and still relevent (so much more so in fact) end. It really was the best.

Alas the rest of Ennis Dredd hasn't survived this re-read, I've always been an Ennis Dredd defender... not quite sure why anymore. Its far from terrible its just not that inspiring and falls into the Prog's ever growing field of mediocrity. This is exemplified by Brigand Doom, which I really enjoy and in this year I was about to put into the highlights section, then realised in most year its a middle tier book enbiggened by the rubbish that surrounds it.

And there is so much rubbish. I've bashed most of it already and see no need to add to that here but they really is a lot of crap in 1991.

So yeah a very straightforward year to review really, which I guess is a saving grace.

For so many 'years' a complete re-read seems like a good idea, years like 1991 make it an act of stubborn completist nonsense... entering 1992 doesn't really fill me with much hope either....
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 June, 2018, 09:19:33 PM
1992 Annuals

Whoops

Its the all new, all shiny 1992 YEARBOOKS!

Arh man these Yearbooks could have been soooo good. They have such potential, they are such great physical products ... yet then you open them and...

Well to be fair the 2000ad Yearbook looks to have great potential. Okay there's a lot of filler, Dash Decent reprint - huh??? Robo-Hunter (mind has nice Graham Higgins art) Tao  de Moto gets a text ending I didn't even make it through, Rogue Trooper... christ there is a lot of filler... but...

Slaine by Mills and Fabry, Dredd by Wagner and Cam - that'll save things... right... right... right... nah the Dredd is a surprisingly flat year end summary thing, a bit weird and Cam's art isn't up to standard, the Fabry Slaine is cute but a little light and floppie... such a missed opportunity.

The Dredd Yearbook doesn't even tease us with such potential... well to be fair there is a decent long Wagner Dredd, not a great one a decent one... overall its very weak content.

Such a shame, such a great shame and at £5.95 the cost of finding out was pretty steep!

I also read the Specials, but that was a couple of nights ago now and I can barely remember them!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 01 June, 2018, 11:20:27 PM
You're sliding into the dark now Colin.  Styrofoam's about to get real.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 05 June, 2018, 01:23:14 PM
1991 was the year when my 2000AD fandom really kicked into overdrive. I'd given up on The Beano and Whizzer and Chips, and hadn't quite made a jump into Marvel comics, so was mainlining all the 2000AD I could find. This did of course include the Best of Monthly, so it's very possible my memories of that year being good are skewed by the presence of reprint material I'd never seen before (I think this included Verdus and a bunch of early Ace Trucking Co). Not to mention all my big brother's back progs, stretching all the way to 439 (seemed like an eon's worth of Progs at the time, that did). At the time, I'm pretty sure I thought 1991 was a step up from 1989 and 1990, believe it or not.

The point is, it's impossible for me to re-read this era without the old nostalgia. Although I'll admit that this includes the 'painful' part of the literal meaning of that word. For what it's worth, Khronikles of Khaos is the one I find most divisive in my own mind. I thought it was silly at the time, but beautifully drawn, but on each re-read I seem to go and forth between loving it and hating it. When I'm in the right mood, the Mills/Skinner hate for authority figures is so naked I find it funny, and they do manage to tread the line of having Deadlock take down Hammerstein's do-good attitude but also make Deadlock himself look ridiculous. Don't think Mills has ever written a character that he couldn't (and didn't) take the piss out of at some point. Maybe Ro-Jaws? 'Cos his main function seems to be to take the piss anyway.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 June, 2018, 06:15:57 PM
Well having retrieved 1992 from the nerd cave and flipped through them to get them from on the shelf order to re-read order I have to say its looking like it'll be a step up from 1991, certainly in terms of the highlights. The proof will be in the puddin' but I remain optimistic.

Yeah I know what you mean about it being impossible to seperate re-read from nostaglia. I defo commented here how when we got to 1985 it was very tricky for me to get past how much I loved thos issues and how I knew them almost by heart. That said I do think I landed on my feet as when trying to be as objective as possible that's some good shit there.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 05 June, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
I definitely think nostalgia plays a huge part in re-reads. I also find it very difficult to judge the true "worth"of the old stuff because of this.

This manifests itself in a few ways:

- there are stories I have convinced myself are the best ever and can never ever be topped. Stuff like Nemesis book 1,3, 6, early Slaine, the Judge Child

- a feeling that new stuff can never be as good. But along comes Lawless and Brink to challenge that. Objectively I know they are as good, but as I'm not ten anymore I don't get the sheer thrill that I used to get when the newsagent delivered the Prog along with my parents paper on a Saturday morning. But neither am I as disappointed when my subs copy fails to show up, as I have plenty of other things to read and I know it will be there on Monday, Tuesday at the latest.

I also find stuff that I didn't read in the original Progs when a child, which I have subsequently read just doesn't leave as big an impression on me. But I do find those I got collections of a few years after they came out, but still a child, I look back on more favourably, but they still aren't in my top classics. Stuff like The Cursed Earth, Verdus, the Day the Law Died. Whereas Stuff that I have read for the first time as an adult, I have no problems seeing the limitations in: Harlem Heroes, Inferno, Invasion, Dan Dare (which I haven't even got round to finishing a good couple of years on).

Now it can it be the case that the Prog dramatically I improved in its 3rd year, or is all this a demonstration of the rose tinted nostalgia effect?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 June, 2018, 08:54:35 PM
While I do think nostaglia plays a big part in reaction to read I don't think its everything and I find I can be objective. There's stuff I loved as a kid that I'd don't like now at all. Lazer Slaine and Meltdown Man being an examples that springs to mind. There's stuff I didn't get on with as a kid that I love now... and various shades inbetween and with stuff I hadn't read.

I think the biggest part is my tastes have changed over time and I'm looking for different things, and some stories are so good that they just satisfy. Some however played such a big part in defining what I love, so Flesh and Cursed Earth all but defined what I think is good that the fact I think they are absolute classics is self forfilling ... but I do think objectively part of that is they are just plain good... arh who knows...

... mind one thing I have spotted already is maybe it will be 1992 Ennis Dredd that means I remember it more fondly that I have found in this re-read. The Art of Geomancy into Justice One - now that's good Dredd.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 07 June, 2018, 03:05:51 PM
For some reason my critical faculties seem to be better calibrated when it comes to Ennis - it's very clear he got better and better with each year, although 1991 me thought that there could be few stories as rousingly funny as 'Death Aid' and 'Emerald Isle' (the Spud gun bits, at least). 1991 me was very, very wrong.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 07 June, 2018, 06:04:54 PM
To me, the start of Ennis's Dredd run is pretty good, and the end is really good. It's the middle where it all sags, and the pressure of having to churn out a story a week leads to all these hackneyed parodies of now-dated pop culture.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 June, 2018, 09:05:46 PM
Early 1992

Well for all my fears at the end of last year have to say 1992 starts pretty damned strong. Justice One, even if its not the who dunnit I always think it is (its only about 10 years since I last read it, my memory is crap!) is a great story. The second Brigand Doom 'book' I'm also enjoying a great deal, I'll come to Durham Red soon, but good stuff and Skizz II started as a blast, really enjoying it again.

But its the rubbish strip I want to talk about. See I'm so close to enjoying Trash. Its clearly the weakest strip in there and has some sub-Millsian corpation and business bad, nature good stuff, but I can't help but almost enjoy it. Its definately raised by Nigel Dobbyn (why oh why did he fall from Tharg's graces he's so good) art but it has one fundamental problem a few strips have had of late, particularly this by American writers.

The hero is an absolute jerk. I mean he's a complete tool.

Quite aptly his closest comparison is from Junker, the lead of which was an even bigger tosser. Both Fleisher and Kupperberg seem to think that the key to a 2000ad led is to make them an angry, charmless shouty type. The belief that making them mean and violent is enough. And clearly its not and shows nothing but a misunderstanding of what makes Dredd and Co work.

Mind fair to say that its wrong to blame it on being American as clearly Mark Millar has the same problem in Robo-hunter, he at least tries to make Sam Slade funny, he just misses the mark by a mile!

Anyway its shame as somewhere buried under all that is the heart of a story with potential, one alas not realised and given that it sits in refreshing enjoyable company for this period its a big miss.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 08 June, 2018, 09:24:38 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 June, 2018, 09:05:46 PM
I can't help but almost enjoy it.

I think you've nailed this one, Colin. Trash is pretty close to being good, but it just falls short. The art is great, and it's not a bad try at the old 'yes, it's a future cop, but different from Dredd  because....' paradigm (though the later Mambo is a better one.) But it just falls at the final hurdle - an honourable failure, at least, especially compared to toss like Junker.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 June, 2018, 07:50:34 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 June, 2018, 06:04:54 PM
To me, the start of Ennis's Dredd run is pretty good, and the end is really good. It's the middle where it all sags, and the pressure of having to churn out a story a week leads to all these hackneyed parodies of now-dated pop culture.

You're not wrong maybe Ennis Dredd will just be very inconsistent. From the great Justice One we dive into Koole Killers... easy come, easy go huh!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 June, 2018, 08:16:36 AM
Well 1992 may have started well, but are the changes a coming. A couple of strips I really enjoyed end and some lesser material rolls in, maybe rather than worrying about what's coming I should celebrate what's been.

Firstly Brigand Doom - Voodoo Child, always thought Brigand Doom was a classic example of law of dimishing returns, but I really enjoyed this second story. Okay it has some problems, the mad voodoo chap and his lumbering horbe seemed out of place in the straight edge world of B. Doom and doesn't really fit. The thing is the city and world our undead mystery monster lives in is a bit of a story straitjacket and so spinning it in new and different directions is necessary I'd guess. That said this story plays really well with the mystery and enigma of Doom and his troubled relationship with Agent 9.

The whole thing is of course raised a level or two by Dave D'Antiquis' superb and choice art and its really enjoyable and I'm looking forward to it returning at least once more... there's one more long form Doom right?

Secondly we have Durham Red - Island of the Damned its a great Strontium Dog story a well balanced mixture of hardboiled adventure and action and daft fun. The only real question around it is what makes it specifically a Durham Red story, not necessarily a problem in and of itself, its a good story and does try to crank in a sense that its specific to her and forces some character history a little clumsily into the piece but could this have been a Johnny story, what defines a Durham Red story... does it matter?

Finally SkIIzz I love the original Skizz, love it and while its hard to pretend that the later two books are in that league I've always enjoyed and defended them against their critics. This re-read has done nothing to diminish my view that Jim Baikie is more than capable of continuing this tale. He does a great job of slowly introducing our previous cast in a way that makes sense, but allows the story to focus at first on Skizz and his new dilemma and build his world a little more, slowly building the bigger problem faced.

That does lead to one issue, there is a lot going on and the story could have done with a couple more parts to allow the resolutions of both key situations, Skizz's emprisonment and Snuffer approaching Earth to feel a little less neat and convenient. That said I'm happy to set that aside to lavish in more Baikie art and a return to these wonderful characters.

So yeah 1992 started with three good story... replaced by Finn, The Clown, Beyond Science and the soon to return Khronicles of Khaos... can this bright start continue???!!!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 June, 2018, 09:31:30 PM
Oh wow I thought I'd made comment on the lead up to the relaunch Prog 780, but I seem to have forgotten to do so. So before I get to the relaunch line-up a quick recap of how we got here.

Finn - oh man we really are in a low point in Mills writing and all Tony Skinner seems to do is heighten the cliche and predictible nature of Mills' idea, the harder it seems to be trying to push in brave and interesting directions. Finn is the very embodiment of that. I find Jim Elston's art pretty hard work too, it just doesn't work and for all the effort Unca Patly just isn't finding anything new to say.

The Clown - while Nunca Patiscal is striving to find new ground and be original at least, all be it failing miserably at least he's trying. The Clown just slaps a veneer over a summary of the style over substance party that was the worst of early 90s comics. There just seems no point to it, the characters, the lead especially, are too dull to care about, the violent humour just to weak to get beyond childish and story a bland pastiche. Bliss' art isn't much better, it has potential and technically might have momemts but storytelling is poor its cliche.

At least Tales from Beyond Science has some pretty good stories, a couple feel a little forced, and I'm afraid to say John Smith is guilty of one of those and Mark Miller's opener is really quite good. But overall a nice little series of one offs and by George Rian Hughes art is a down played simply designed delight compared to much of the painted nonsense that surrounds it.

Ennis Dredd continues to be very hit and miss, mind hasn't that Greg Staples come on since 1992!

Oh and I almost forgot there's a Silver from Harlem Heroes story ... actually lets forget it as even though it was only like 4 episode's long I was skipping reading by the end (well after the first episode)...

... so glad to be up to date!

So tomorrow I'll be back to discuss the post 780 strips... gives a couple time to find any sort of saving grace I guess!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 19 June, 2018, 10:27:19 AM
Looking forward to your musing on the Prog 780 (Megablast) era, Colin.
I remember really enjoying the line-up at the time, even Friday and Kola Kommandos!

The main event was of course the beginning of Buttonman- described by Tharg himself as a "real teen sleaze strip".  Old green bonce certainly knew what buttons to push at the time.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 June, 2018, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 June, 2018, 10:27:19 AM
The main event was of course the beginning of Buttonman- described by Tharg himself as a "real teen sleaze strip".  Old green bonce certainly knew what buttons to push at the time.

Yes, yes he did as this does raise the point that I should mention - I loved this stuff at the time and lapped it up. I was guilty of being invited to the early ninities style of substance party and bringing a bottle of cheap cider along to join in.

Can you imagine anyone describing Buttonman as 'real teen sleaze strip' these days... wow!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 June, 2018, 10:01:11 PM
So Prog 780... ain't actually as bad as I thought. In fact the six issues that followed were quite good and relatively very good.

Okay so the glorious painted Gibson art drops off quickly to just nice line work. Similarly we get teased with Dillon on the first part of the next Dredd story 'A magic place'... which is actually a fantastic example of Ennis doing Dredd well. While I'm not sure this story needs to exist 'Beyond the Wall' in the 86 Sci-Fi Special being such a wonderful stand alone story. Since its does exist though I quite like the fact that it juxtaposes the more bland high octane story elements the Prog is so immersed in at the moment, with the much more genuinely powerful moments that really shine out in contrast. Reminding you quite effectively the duality of Mega City One done well.

Elsewhere I'm not hating the second Kronicle of Khaos book over in ABC Warriors... I mean don't get me wrong I wince whenever Auntiquity Millum and that bad lad Skinner try to be cool by showing how crazy chaos is by making it do the EXACT opposite of what an ordered world would expect... sigh oh and yes Deadlock puts my teeth on edge with his so crazy bonkers and contrary attitude. I mean I did find it cool when I was 20 or whatever, now its laid on so thick it just adds him to the panthon of contemporary 2000ad leds who are just twats! He'd probably approve of course.

Twat!

Elsewhere, no need to bleet on about Rogue Trooper, its crap. Nor to ring the praises of Button Man we all know its exquiste brilliant, cast in such glorious contrast to almost everything it sits alongside. I'll come back to it.

No rather I'll play to the audience in my Khaoticesque approval of Kola Kommandos. It starts off really well and having reached episode 6 I'm still waiting for it to take the plunge I remember it having. Its not yet, its still really good fun and Anthony Williams has come on leaps and bounds from his work on Robo-hunter from a few Progs ago. Yes it plays the oh so simple and popular card, in not just 2000ad but popular culture of the time, of big business is EVIL I tells you, so very EVIl... well yes I accept it is but do 48% of stories from the early 90s need to enlighten me to this fact? It got tired quickly and we've got about 20 plus years of Master Millian reminding us of the fact still to come.

Funnily enough I've just finished Steve Parkhouse's - the serie's writer - lovely run on Black Knight (featuring Captain Britain) and there is common ground here... no work with me. In his Black Knight story, told 3 pages at a time, he just throws ideas at the story, grabbing you by the throat and keeping you onboard my the simple fact you don't get a moment to jump off. Now I'm not saying that KK manages this trick with anything like the ability of the older story but there are moments when I think I'm about to question what the hell this is all about and hold on isn't it all a bit sill... oh look what's happening next, cool... and before I've had a spare moment to put any rational thought into whether this is actually any good I've moved on and don't care!

So yeah I was kinda dreading 780 and its pals but in reality, while so far from perfect, its actually pretty good.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 22 June, 2018, 02:31:48 PM
That's a right astute analysis of Kola Kommandoes right there - so many ideas thrown at the reader, but sadly only a 50/50 ratio of good ones to bad. It's the comedy buffoon superheroes that got me down the most. But there's something about the setting of actually working in an office, and running around a battle-torn city, that still feels underexplored in the world of 2000AD, even if the 'big business is evil' theme is overexplored.

Has anyone ever found out what the working deal between Mills 'n Skinner actually was? TPO makes it seem like Mills was so close to Skinner, and so influenced by the man's life and philosophy, that he felt he ought to co-credit Skinner basically as the inspiration for his stories at this time -

- but I feel that Mills has hinted on his own blog that this isn't fair, and in fact Skinner did much of the actual plotting/scripting/dialoguing during, I guess more akin to the partnership of Wagner 'n Grant or Beeby 'n Rennie.

I quite like Finn. But not more than that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 22 June, 2018, 03:28:00 PM
Interesting!  I haven't read it in years, but IIRC I didn't find Kola Kommandos to be too bad. I was on a downer with Williams at the time, and I think I felt it was a bit too silly-strip-at-the-back-of-Crisis for the Prog, but it still entertained: this at a time when I was drifting in and out of love with the prog.  A Parkhouse strip usually has something going for it, even at the worst of times.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 June, 2018, 03:37:25 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 22 June, 2018, 02:31:48 PM
Has anyone ever found out what the working deal between Mills 'n Skinner actually was?

I was at an ABC Warriors signing back in the day when someone put this very question to Pat and Tony. I can't actually recall which of them revealed the details, but they explained that Pat did the vowels and Tony did the consonants.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Steven Denton on 22 June, 2018, 04:05:13 PM
I recently Read the Mek Files 1&2 and I would not be at all surprised if Tony Skinner did a lot of the writing for the Chronicles and Hellbringer story's. when read in close succession to Black Hole it reads like its been written by a different writer. Deadlock also acts and speaks like a completely different character.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2018, 04:31:33 PM
The way I've always pictured the partnership worked like this.

Unca Pat sneaks out of the house so his mum doesn't notice and legs it to the bus station. There he finds Tony 'The Flick' Skinner hangin' out with his gang, drinking their magic choas elixir. Pat nervously approaches and tries to look cool, curious as to why the potion Skinner and his gang are imbuing smells like cheap cider... he plucks up courage and asks if he can try some.

Tony and his mates just laugh... Pat blushes but becomes fortified... Skinner intrigued asks Pat what the heck he has to offer the gang... Pat thinks, struggling ... Skinner draws him over... "You still writing that comic stuff..."

"Yeah"

"Well me and my mates here have some ideas for you"

"Oh cool, let me see"

Skinner hands over the hastily scribbled notes on what for all the world looks some pages from a 6th Form Physics book...

"Its not a text book, its a disguised magical tome... you get in with us and you'll see the runes" He holds the bottle of cid... elixir to Pat... Pat reachs out only to have it snatched away..." Nah nah nah... read those ideas first... we see them in that comic and we'll think about it."

Pat reads the notes, he's worried, but Tony and his gang are so cool... suddenly he hears a noise, someone is coming... he quickly nods at Tony and scarpers just in case its Tharg doing the rounds. He's worries he hears Skinner mob laughing at him as he goes... but looks at the note... no, no its probably some magic chant... how cool!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Bolt-01 on 22 June, 2018, 04:48:20 PM
Colin- you are painting pictures with words, my friend.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 22 June, 2018, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2018, 04:31:33 PM
Tony 'The Flick' Skinner

Tony Ten-Skinner


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 25 June, 2018, 11:41:56 AM
Yet more astuteness from Mr YNWA  :lol:
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 June, 2018, 08:58:44 PM
Just to assure folks, after all the nice things folks have said, that this is of course all utter nonsense, I've made a decision.

The idea of the re-read is to read the Progs as comics, not in story 'clumps' as I have in the past... even though I can't quite shake my need to review and comment like that. Anyway to that end since I've reached 786 I've made the call to just read Judgement Day in the Prog, not to nip out to the nerd cave and get the Megs.

Is it to keep my re-read pure?
Is it a social experiment?
Is it because when I reached these issues tonight I couldn't be arsed to go out to the comic cavern?

Never underestimate how my laziness can over come my common sense!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 June, 2018, 09:35:01 PM
So two very different stories finish. Kola Kommandos to be honest never gets the dip I seemed to remember. It remains reckless and immense fun. I really enjoyed it, which is not to say its good. Its not, its a mass of problems and silly ideas. Its also a mass of themes and good ideas. And somehow it works really well at the same time as dying on its arse... and I loved it!

Though of course these things are relative. In many recent Progs it would have shone far brighter, stood much taller, alas here its in the shadow of the constantly brilliance of Button Man. Its funny Button Man is almost the exact opposite of Kola Kommandos. Its really a very simple tale. Its themes are dark and interesting, but no especially deep or original. Button Man is all about the execution. Its not about throwing a thousand ideas at something and see what sticks, its about identifying a simple worthwhile idea and drawing it in beautiful detail, timing and execution.

Its a massive testiment to Wagner and Ranson that Harry could so easily have been another of the one dimensional, angry, blunt and pointless leds that have so been the curse of lesser strips and creators in its contempary stories, he's not, not at all. He's a wonderfully drawn, supreme character, who interestingly doesn't go through an arc or much development. He just is and he is as professional and singular as his creators.

I'm also always really amazed how obvious the twist of the Doc being Harry's Voice is from the very first part, and made clearer throughout. I missed it completely when I first read this!

Oh and one last thing I know there's a lot of fuss and ongoing opportunity of this becoming a film. If it brings the series creators reward, well then I hope so. But read it, immerse yourself in it and think. Would anything, ANYTHING in this story be served by it being a film. Is there anyway this could be anything but a compromise if filmed? Its a great testament to masters of the creators craft and the creators craft is comics and this is a prime example of why the medium and format of 2000ad doesn't need to be served by 'bigger' media.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Steven Denton on 29 June, 2018, 12:50:36 PM
I like Kola Kommandos. It's Anthony Williams best period artistically, its full of ideas, quirky characters and action. (I also like Dry Run and the 90's Mean Arena so my taste may not be representative)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 29 June, 2018, 02:58:39 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 June, 2018, 08:58:44 PM
Just to assure folks, after all the nice things folks have said, that this is of course all utter nonsense, I've made a decision.

The idea of the re-read is to read the Progs as comics, not in story 'clumps' as I have in the past... even though I can't quite shake my need to review and comment like that. Anyway to that end since I've reached 786 I've made the call to just read Judgement Day in the Prog, not to nip out to the nerd cave and get the Megs.

Is it to keep my re-read pure?
Is it a social experiment?
Is it because when I reached these issues tonight I couldn't be arsed to go out to the comic cavern?

Never underestimate how my laziness can over come my common sense!

Let us know how this works out! I was one of those who subscribed to the Meg purely to get these chapters (and Armageddon - see the thread in the 'General' section about how this was once said to be the origin of Mega City 1). In theory, Judgement Day should work when just reading the Prog episodes - be curious to know if that was, in fact, true. I suspect not, especially the Johnny Alpha plotline.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 29 June, 2018, 11:08:05 PM
Quote from: Steven Denton on 29 June, 2018, 12:50:36 PM
I like Kola Kommandos. It's Anthony Williams best period artistically, its full of ideas, quirky characters and action. (I also like Dry Run and the 90's Mean Arena so my taste may not be representative)


Was that around the same time as his PJ Maybe story?  Liked his art in that.  He seemed to be a good artist served up not-particularly engaging stories.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 29 June, 2018, 11:50:26 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 June, 2018, 09:05:46 PM
But its the rubbish strip I want to talk about. See I'm so close to enjoying Trash. Its clearly the weakest strip in there and has some sub-Millsian corpation and business bad, nature good stuff, but I can't help but almost enjoy it. Its definately raised by Nigel Dobbyn (why oh why did he fall from Tharg's graces he's so good) art but it has one fundamental problem a few strips have had of late, particularly this by American writers.


I did see Death Ingloria not so long ago, at the Unicorn pub, Camden (not Camden Town, but on Camden Road, on the border with Islington North) - if you get the chance, go see them/her.  I also got a seven-page comic at the gig, written by Galina Ain (the person who gets up on stage) and Hilary Robinson, with artwork by Nigel Dobbyn.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 June, 2018, 07:07:35 AM
Had to look up Death Ingloria, seem to have missed that. Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Steven Denton on 30 June, 2018, 11:19:58 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 29 June, 2018, 11:08:05 PM
Quote from: Steven Denton on 29 June, 2018, 12:50:36 PM
I like Kola Kommandos. It's Anthony Williams best period artistically, its full of ideas, quirky characters and action. (I also like Dry Run and the 90's Mean Arena so my taste may not be representative)


Was that around the same time as his PJ Maybe story?  Liked his art in that.  He seemed to be a good artist served up not-particularly engaging stories.

he did the PJ Maybe story where Dredd punches him in the face at the end (for being 18) and the Necropolis PJ Maybe story a bit earlier I think. same style but it was more polished by Kola Kommandos. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 July, 2018, 03:09:42 PM
Jugeen Da

Well that was... interesting. Basically reading the episodes of Judgement Day just in the Prog wasn't the perfect way to read the story, but at the start the impact wasn't too bad and the two strands of story felt sufficently seperate for the crossover to work.Of course its hard to seperate myself from the fact that I know the story really well anyway.

I always really enjoyed the opening of this story and wished they'd played more with the Dredd and cadets desperately trying to survive and get back to Mega City One from the Cursed Earth. Its definately the best bit of the tale. The longer it goes on the more it starts to fall apart. During the opening the Prog alone does tease you with the fact there's this whole Johnny Alpha thing going on and you don't get to join the fun. Still it makes the bit you do get better.

As the story progresses and the two strands come together they try their best but by the time you get to the end its not working very well at all ... mind then again the over all story isn't working too well either so ya know.

Then you get that final episode. I mean what's gone before may have been slowly transfering into a shambling, rotting mess trying to eat your brain BUT that last episode is so punch the air trimuphant its untrue and then you get to that last page and punch the air again... even if the stuff before has been a bit poo!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 01 July, 2018, 03:27:06 PM
Not a fan of Judgement Day, there are zombies and a supernatural villain (not the best kind) and it drags on and on. While my read was a couple of years back to finally read those old progs, I haven't read the Megazines. Maybe soon. Maybe it would help the story overall(?)

I have read people's high regard for Judgement Day, I don't get it. Maybe an epic was called-for so this was the answer? Also, wasn't there a definite distinction in the audiences for Prog and Meg then (which doesn't apply now)? You're splitting a story between audiences... disappointing.

FYI Just today finished Shakara (Hachette, vol. 1) and feeling spoiled at the scale and fun and designs in it. How it should be done!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 01 July, 2018, 03:41:04 PM
I remember being annoyed at the time at the descision to run the story in both titles, and I buy both. I just think it doesn't really work that well. Another case in point being Doomsday. I always feel it is not clear what order to read things in.

I guess the one where it had worked best was Tour of Duty. In that case, the Meg was used more to fill in a bit of background. Plus with Dredd exiled to the Cursed Earth for months they could hardly have stories set in MC1 at that point.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 July, 2018, 04:01:09 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 01 July, 2018, 03:41:04 PM
Another case in point being Doomsday. I always feel it is not clear what order to read things in.


Have to say I think Doomsday tries the same model but makes a much better fist of it. That said I've only read this after the fact, which the Meg issues in reprint so looking forward to getting to it again... all be it a bit off. From now on it only seems fair that for this re-read I'll stick with this methodology, but I'm such a fan of Doomsday I suspect I'll read it twice. Once Prog only then as a whole!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 01 July, 2018, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Fungus on 01 July, 2018, 03:27:06 PM
Not a fan of Judgement Day, there are zombies and a supernatural villain (not the best kind) and it drags on and on. While my read was a couple of years back to finally read those old progs, I haven't read the Megazines. Maybe soon. Maybe it would help the story overall(?)

This longterm 2000ad reader isn't a fan:

I don't think it was a particularly good story or epic. As for the crossover element, I really don't know. I can remember people complaining about it at the time and I empathised with them completely. Like any crossover, it's inherently frustrating and probably should have been avoided.

I piled on far too many zombies. I recycled too much material that had appeared in other epics. There's bits of Apocalypse War all over that story. The art didn't help. When it was Pete Doherty or it was Carlos, it was spot on. When it was Dean Ormston – well, Dean's talents lay elsewhere.

There was one fill-in episode that should have been a doozey. It was Dredd kicking the shit out of Johnny Alpha, but it fell as flat as a pancake because the art was by one of these Bisley knock-offs (Chris Halls). Then again, it wasn't really a very good script to begin with, so who am I to talk?

Writing Johnny Alpha was nice, but I didn't really take it anywhere interesting. I liked that last page, where Dredd and Alpha walk off together; being able to write that was cool. I would say about 10% of my Dredd stories are good. Some others – bits of stories are good. And a lot of it's crap, to be quite honest with you.

It was a combination of things. Sometimes getting the wrong artists; frankly, bad editing at the time. The comic was in the hands of Richard Burton and Alan McKenzie, who were not up to the job. I don't think that's going to be a particularly uncommon opinion among people you've interviewed – I could be wrong.

The main reason is I was not up to the job. I was too young, just not ready for that level of work. I was writing all sorts of stuff as well as Dredd and still trying to write a weekly strip. The other reason - I can't do Dredd right because I'm too close to it, too reverential. I like it too much.

The instinct that allows me to go in and piss all over American superheroes and end up writing quite entertaining stories about them - to go in and tear characters apart and come up with entertaining if controversial stories - that just isn't there for me when it comes to Dredd.

Dredd means too much to me, I am too reverential to it and I can't take the piss. I can't tear it apart. And I guess I'll never really be able to get over that.

Even last year, doing Helter Skelter, which I had a lot of fun doing. I came away from that thinking that isn't really Dredd. Because at the end of the day, if Dredd is not written by John Wagner or not the classic period where John was co-writing with Alan Grant, then it just isn't really Dredd.

I can't get it right. Neither can Robbie nor Gordon. Grant and Mark couldn't get it right. Alan on his own hasn't quite got it. He and John in the glory days that lasted up until 1986 – they had it absolutely down pat. John's pretty much the only guy that can do it; maybe what actually defines Dredd is John's work on it.

With American superheroes, every character has as many different personalities and takes on it as there have been writers who have worked on it. With most characters, that numbers into the hundreds, but with Dredd, you've really only got one correct take, and that's John's.

There are a few good stories, when the editors kept their mucky paws off it and I was actually getting it right. When they put the right artist on the job and he did a good job. There are several stories I'm very pleased with. There's a lot of them that are mediocre. There's a lot of them that I think are downright bloody awful.

http://viciousimagery.blogspot.com/2007/02/28-days-of-2000-ad-171-ennis-talks-pt.html

http://viciousimagery.blogspot.com/2007/02/28-days-of-2000-ad-181-garth-ennis-pt.html
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 01 July, 2018, 04:12:21 PM
In the Mega Collection books they neatly divided the story in two and I read them months apart, so the scenes that appear in both don't seem like they are retreading ground so much. Indeed the two strands only really come together at the end. At the time, not that I remember it too well now, I am sure it grated a bit. But yes you are right it was done better then than Judgement Day. And to be fair it's a much better story.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 July, 2018, 09:05:03 PM
Is it really 20 issues since 780? My we must be heading for our next launch Prog already... so how is

Road to Prog 800

Well we're well up from the dip at its lowest as we always have at least one MAGNIFICENT strip as Button Man is replaced by Zenith Book IV, a story that is so hung on its twist that I'm always slighty surprised by how it not only holds up each time I re-read it, but gets even better.

Millar's Robo-Hunter finds new lows in Return to Verdus, Jez in this one not only does it entirely miss the point and tone of Robo-Hunter, as all the stories to date, but this one even manages to be even more of a meandering mess... well okay that might in part be due to the fact I can barely bring myself to even skip read it by this point BUT everytime I just look at it, it comes across as a chaotic mass of stuff being thrown at a wall, hard, as breaking and blowing things up BIG is all Millar has left in his tank. Its just exploding badly coloured crap all over the page... I try to read it I just find it hard as it burns my eyes!

So backing up these extremes the road to 800 is actually dominated by a host of one offs. I real smorgasbord of done and gones. Firstly we have a host of okay if not great Future Shocks the highlight of which is Jim Baike's actually great Hot Iron, but then I have a man crush on Jim Baike's art. On top of this we get the interesting experiment Dragon Tales, which unlike Vector 13 has the good grace to realise its format is actually too limiting to sustain beyond about the 6 we get here. Nothing is good, nothing is great, they all just okay, all be it if they all look pretty good. I do wonder if Tharg just happened to have 3 Future Shocks featuring dragons land on his desk one morning, ponder if it was a thing, commission a few more before quickly realising, no, no, this is never going to be much if a thing.

Finally though we have a series of Bradley one offs based on crunchy and childish retelling of Hans Christian Anderson fairy tales... and you know what they really work, or at least I really like them. And I do wander if its these that means I always have a much fonder recollection of Bradley than anything I read to date could have possibly fostered. They seem to form a perfect partnership and give Bradley a more valid reason to exist than slagging of Jason Donavan could never manage. Add to that the stories really bring the best out of Simon Harrison's glorious art work and we really have a winner on our hands... unfortunately just as the series stomps off back to its bedroom if I remember rightly.... which I'm likely not!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 01 July, 2018, 10:01:13 PM
Maybe it's context, but I really enjoyed Bradley on a recent reading. Can't say if that's some revising of taste, since I can't honestly remember how I felt about these at the time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 July, 2018, 09:21:09 PM
Prog 800

A line-up of Dredd, Flesh, Zenith, Journal of Luke Kirby, Robo-Hunter. That's got to be a winner right. I mean each of those is a classic strip in its own right, they each have some genuine stone cold classics in their catelogue... but of course these are different times. You don't need to actually read the stories to realise this though, infact you don't need to go past the inside cover.

In the box 'Some useful, Betegeusian phrases' box we get:

QuoteBorag Thungg: Skin me, Bro!

Splundig vur thrigg: I'm outa here!

Zarjaz: Fab! Gear! Groovy!

etc. I think this last one is meant to be ironic. It's hard to tell.

Okay so two things in that box alone that go a long way to explaining why even a line up like the above has the potential to be a classic, if each of the strips was at its Zen... best...

1. The phrases are like your creepy uncle trying to be cool. Sure he has some cool stories, some of the others are just plain sad.

2. There's an exclamation mark after everything!!! Why!!! There's just no need!!!! Its the embodiment of Ennis Dredd when its bad, Millar Robo-Hunter, or Patisical hangin' with his skinboy on Flesh.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 July, 2018, 09:52:16 PM
So I'm streaking through the 800s and its becoming a familar story. There's some good stuff, there's some okay stuff and there's some rubbish. As the good stuff (Zenith Book 4) finishes you hope for better than Wireheads and Finn coming into cover it... but just as you lose hope John Smith comes along and hope is restored.

Remember this line as I think I'll be using it again.

Anyway I come not to discuss this, rather to diss Dredd. As I've said before its been very hit and miss during Ennis' run... since issue 800 its gone for consistancy at least. Alas settling on miss may not be the way to go. So what's my beef. Well frankly the stories have been stunning flat and uninspiring, utterly devoid of anything interesting our fun. Judge Dredd has become The Clown... emphasised by Greg Staples' early art. Worse still Dredd has become that worst of 90s 2000ad tropes, the soulless, blandly aggressive hero, exposed by the lack of redemning features in the stories around him.

Now its fair to say that Dredd can be aggressive and is given to bouts of soullessness from time to time. Written too easily he can run an entire story just to punch out the witty oneliner at the end of the strip. For some reason in both 'The Marshal' and 'Innocents Aboard' the current problems with the strip just seem exemplified... then I turn to 'The Magic Mellow Out' and those problems have the added value of Mark Millar / Alan McKenzie* level humour, I mean its been building for a while. Everytime Dredd bust some perp, one (or more) of them has to pull an oversized firearm to give Ol' Joe an excuse to blow their head off... literally. But man 'The Magic Mellow Out' ... well it could have been a Robo-hunter strip....

This is poor Dredd... I dearly hope to return to apologetically say Ennis has hit form again... come on Ennis...

*I should mention Alan McKenzie provide current (post Zenith) best thrill Summer Magic, which is fine and then some.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 July, 2018, 09:46:07 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 July, 2018, 09:52:16 PM
This is poor Dredd... I dearly hope to return to apologetically say Ennis has hit form again... come on Ennis...

Ha! That didn't take long and given the topsy turvey nature of Ennis Dredd I'm not entirely surprised. Currently reading 'Raider' and yep here to make my apologies. I mean John Burns elevates anything he touches, but this is great stuff regardless...

...but not what I'm here to talk about really. I'm here to talk about Prog 812. Its actually not a bad Prog at all (why do I keep capitalising Prog? I mean even knowing its wrong isn't going to stop me doing it, but I should right?) Wireheads ended last week and sorry, try as I might, I just couldn't get into it. It was bloomin' awful and the sad thing for it with Revere back in the Prog just as it concluded in Prog 811, we're reminded all too sharply why real John Smith is so much better than substandard wannabe John Smith like Wireheads*.

In its place is a functional at best Future Shock and a prologue for Dead Meat, a series I'm failing to hate having back and while last time this was present it failed to impress, I'm happy to give it a second go, if memory leaves me not exactly optimistic... the biggest take home from this prologue which gives us a handy breakdown of the coming of our Veggie World (none required capitals again) is that P.U.L.S.E. is surely the worst acronymn in comics ever and boy there have been a few.

So the worst thrill in the prog moves happily to Finn, curiously when it has its best episode for a long time... well to be fair its the first in a while I'm managed to do more than skip read and I quite enjoyed it... but Jez Patrical Mills under the spell of street guru Skinner is labouring things to fuck!

So yeah the real reason I've pulled Prog 812 out to discuss is the ending of The Journal of Luke Kirby - The Nightwalker - its bloody good. The stayed tension in those final pages on the train just perfectly encapulating the fresh pacing and story style this series brings to the Prog. Its really interesting to note this is almost twice the length of the first story (really it took 4 years for it to come back, specials aside, I don't remember that!) and it really benefits from that. Conventional wisdom - well in my head at least - has it that Journals of LK is a prime example of the law of diminishing returns, but you know what I think Nightwalker is better than Summer Magic. The extra space this has to frankly not cover much more story isn't padding its effective pacing to build atmosphere.

I was surprised how rushed Summer Magic read recently, it was kinda fitting, making it feel like the rapid storytelling used in comics at the time this was set. That said I much prefered the more steady pace of this second story. Almost perfectly embodied by that sunbeam standoff in this final part. Just supreme stuff and now dimly remembered diminishing returns aside I'm now really looking forward to Steve Parkhouse getting his mitts on this strip... I think that happens next time right?

* and before anyone stops by to think I'm being snarky that genuinely isn't commentry on any current state of affairs!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 July, 2018, 11:51:51 AM
I guessed a wee while back that Revere gets better as it goes on and by George it surely does. While still not John Smith at his very best (which is of course the very best 2000ad has to offer) Book 2 is really good. It has a more straightforward and coherant plot and tells a relatively simple story with typical Smith flourishes, pomp and purple prose. It does it really effectively and as he finally makes his leap of faith at the end we too leap into the far more metaphysical final book, as I recall.

A really nice effort.

And so there we have it, join me tonight hopefully as I sum up 1992... it certainly been an interesting year...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 July, 2018, 09:34:35 PM
1992

Well much like 1991 this is an easy year to review. Its better, much better than 1991.

On all levels Tharg is... well finding his level. The good stuff is top class and there's much more of it. The bottom stuff is still absolutely rotten, but there's much less of it and most tellingly the middle ground, while still there and dominating, is actually pretty good.

The likes of Brigand Doom and Kola Kommandos aren't having to fight above their weight as they are joined by some very good thrills, SkIIzz, Durham Red and Journal of Luke Kirby really backing up the middle order, if not quite cracking the very top ranks. These are well served though in 1992, Revere and bonefide classics Button Man and Zenith book IV. There's much to love here...

... but of course the Prog still has considerable problems and I'm afraid to say many of them are served to us by one of the greats, I've dissed Unca Pattycake quite enough to leave it alone here, but it us a problem. Millar and what I think are the (must surely be) last vestiges of Michael Fleisher's input are still far to riff and backed up by new thrills like Wireheads, but the balance is turning that's for sure.

Possibly the years variable content is best summed up by Dredd, man this is a rollercoaster and I've covered it quite enough already to make it worth going back into here, but you gotta think that these rough times would have been more managible if we'd had consistently top draw Dredd, alas for the time being those days are gone.

Artistically one thing I don't think I've specifically rallied against is that we really are in the midst of 2000ad's 'painting in mud' period at its very worst. There is of course some exception stuff being served, Burns joining the ranks and Baikie returning being prime examples but there are far too many artists just not ready and trying to mask their inadequacies by slapping the acrylic paint all over.

Anyway 1993 beckons and this one is going to be very interesting. 1992 has brought us the green shots of recovery... 1993  will bring 2000ad's enfant terribles to test how robust they are... mind one of them John Smith will be coming into a bit of a purple (prose) patch, so I'm genuinely excited to see how the balances falls to this re-readers eyes.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 July, 2018, 09:36:54 PM
1993 Year books and 1992 Specials

Well I have to be honest I wasn't expecting much from the specials and yearbooks from this year, or indeed at all going forward, but you know what these where much better than expected and in one case very good indeed.

Neither Year Book stands up to the packaging, and in my copy at least the reproduction of Slaine the King in the 2000ad one woeful. I mean if you have these lovely tomes and you are going to reprint someone with art as glorious as 'the King' you'd put the effort in right... though it might just be my copy... and lets be honest I'm not here for the reprint anyway...

That said these two do have some nice stuff in a few stories, Grant and Ewins Dredd, here, a fun Wagner and Simon Hunter Dredd (who he?) there. Decent Brigand Doom on one hand, ...eerrr good art in Red Razors and Judge Joyce on the other. A good Strontium Dogs story with glorious Simon Harrison art (lovingly printed too which makes me worry all the more about Slaine, but I've moved on) in one corner and... well okay I've given up on the Dredd Year Book, I didn't say it was great, just better than I expected!

The Sci-Fi Special is okay, the highlight being the Strontium Dog story introducing the Woman who Walks or whatever she's called. I always seem to forget about that and Ridgway on the art is a nice touch... oh and how random is that John Lydon interview! Anyway its the 1992 Winter Special that shines here isn't it. While I'm not at all sure Chris Weston was ready for Nemesis the story was fun... though that Simon Harrison poster in the Nemesis feature just teases us with what might have been there. What I wouldn't have given to see Simon Harrison have a proper go at our Horny one. Elsewhere we have that rarest of treats a great Mark Millar story in 'Tales from Beyond Science', nice Blackblood and fun Wagner Dredd.

To be far that Winter Special is one of the best specials we're had for a long time, indeed arguably ever.

So yeah while a few odds and sods aside I don't hold out much hope for future specials and yearbooks, its fun to find that I might be surprised.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 24 July, 2018, 11:22:47 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 July, 2018, 09:36:54 PM
Anyway its the 1992 Winter Special that shines here isn't it. While I'm not at all sure Chris Weston was ready for Nemesis the story was fun... though that Simon Harrison poster in the Nemesis feature just teases us with what might have been there. What I wouldn't have given to see Simon Harrison have a proper go at our Horny one. Elsewhere we have that rarest of treats a great Mark Millar story in 'Tales from Beyond Science', nice Blackblood and fun Wagner Dredd.

To be far that Winter Special is one of the best specials we're had for a long time, indeed arguably ever.


If I recall correctly, the 1992 Winter Special arrived on shop shelves without any promotion or fanfare whatsoever.
There was also no Winter Special the previous year, so it genuinely took me by surprise when I walked into Easons on that chilly autumn evening.

I remember being really impressed at the time of the strength of the stories inside- a valid contender for best 2000AD special ever published. Must give it a re-read.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 24 July, 2018, 01:59:06 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 July, 2018, 09:36:54 PM
1993 Year books ...Judge Joyce...

Wait, there was a Judge Joyce strip? >checks Barney as if the work of Colin wasn't gospel< Begorrah, there was so there was!  I'm sure I have that thing somewhere (big shiny gatefold job, wasn't it?), but I've no memory of that.  Has it ever been reprinted? Is Dredd in it?

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 25 July, 2018, 09:37:50 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 July, 2018, 01:59:06 PM
Is Dredd in it?

No Dredd, but you do get to see Joyce (Snr) spit out his lunch and scream "There's a fella in me pie!"
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2018, 09:32:07 PM
Prog 819

There's a risk in letting early 1993 pass by as we know that Summer 1993 will be where the actions at (arh just before I go to University, could it have been any better timed?) but there is much to discuss before we get to summer shenanigans and the third Prog of the year exemplified that.

We start with a decent Dredd. Beautifully rendered by Colin MacNeil, G.Ennis provides a neat, sharp and entertaining Dredd. Lets see how his hit rate is before others take over, I don't remember a great deal about the end of his run I have to be honest.

Next up Dead Meat continues to ram home its idea (see what I did there, well it was that or rambles on), its single idea, but you know what its pretty inoffensive.

Next up we get to a story that I'm very fond of Strontium Dogs - Return of the Gronk. Now clearly to enable our weak heartised friend to carry a story effectively some changes have to be made and one big shock last Prog later, this episode fair hammers home the fact that this isn't your Father's Gronk anymore. Now I can see why the Gronk striding into a bar and blowing some officious schmoo away might put some folks nosies out of joint... but I can't help but find it fantastic. Admittedly helped by Nigel Dobbyn's simply superb art... the episode and indeed as I recall this series, doesn't really look back from there. Introducing some fun villians. An even harder Gronk and a whole heap of fun...

... the shift in the Gronk is kinda endemic in the shift in Tharg's organ overall however. Its all hard and pounds away with vigour... sometimes that works and its done with enough guile and energy that you can get away with it... sometimes its just leaves you completely unsatisified and sore... leading nicely to...

Robo... well I might was well stop there... cos Jez I'd forgotten how long Millar's Robo... 'graced us', its still bloody going and... well.... I stopped reading about half way through to be honest!

Last up we have Flesh - Legends of Shamana. Last time I read this, almost ten years ago now I said:

QuoteThis revisiting of Flesh should have been so wrong, everything about it should be terrible. A rehash of Flesh adding nothing to the original aside from some Skinner era Mills political preaching (modern life and science is terrible). Infuriating made up dinosaur facts, what on earth were those intelligent dinosaurs about aside from cranking in some trite ideas and that psycho-chamleon stuff, please! Carl Critchlow before he'd perfected his art during the brown paint times. Some shockingly cliched characters.

All that and yet it was always nothing but readable. I really enjoyed it and for the life of me can't work out why. Go figure...

Alas ten years in the first paragraph holds... the second does not.

Possibly the most telling thing about the shift 2000ad is still thrashing through is the 'Droid Profile' for Robo-Cook. Now from my very limited interactions with this droid he seems smashing and lovely and in most of the answers he comes across as a cocky young soul enjoying life, as well he should. However:
Quote
What does Judge Dredd look like under his helmet?

Get a life, you sad fanboy

Now this is a fun throw away answer and means diddly squat... or does it speak to the prevailing attitude in the Prog at the time. Its a bold, young thing, punching it way into a bold exciting new era... its problem is it still felts a little ill at ease and ashamed of what its come from and that is going to be a problem for some time!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2018, 09:01:57 PM
With an almost relaunch Prog in 828 time for some quick thoughts on early 1993

1. Ennis Dredd has been getting better, though its still inconsistant. I enjoyed PJ and the Mock Choc Factory particularly.

2. Though did he really have to have PJ captured?

3. Kelly's Eye Get shot... oh hold on no need to worry he's invulnerable.

4. Legend of Shamana dunnt half gone on dunnit

5. Return of the Gronk shows how to do dumb fun and make it good at the same time... others could learn!

6. Oh no Kelly's Eye has been thrown out a tall building... oh no don't worry he's invulernable

7. That's a fun Tharg Story in the birthday issues (the rules of submitting to 2000ad)

8. Nemesis - The Shape of Things to Come... alas that's actually years of teasing stories about hammers as I recall

9. Mind hasn't Paul Staples come on since then!

10. Oh no Kelly's Eye been blown up by a grenade... oh no hold on he's invulernable its okay...

11.  The second half of Bradley's Bedtime Stories isn't as good as the first... still love Simon Harrison mind.

12. I'd forgotten Ron Smith did a Millar Robo-Hunter... doesn't save it mind!

13. Oh no Kelly's Eye is in a bar that's been hit by a rocket launcher... oh no hold on.... well you get the idea by now.

14. The (almost) relaunch Prog is going to be very bloomin' welcome as I recall.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 09 August, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2018, 09:01:57 PM

8. Nemesis - The Shape of Things to Come... alas that's actually years of teasing stories about hammers as I recall


I got such kick out of that Prog- Nemesis returns (in full colour) with a cracking cover and absolutely out of the blue.
Then nuthin for 3 more years!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2018, 12:44:04 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 09 August, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2018, 09:01:57 PM

8. Nemesis - The Shape of Things to Come... alas that's actually years of teasing stories about hammers as I recall


I got such kick out of that Prog- Nemesis returns (in full colour) with a cracking cover and absolutely out of the blue.
Then nuthin for 3 more years!

Its an okay story, but sets up something that never really got played with - the idea that all the hate and
vitriol in Termight would led to its own downfall... and a hammer.... there's another short story in the 900s? Then we have to wait for Book X - which moves things in a different direction... oh my memory could be so wrong there! A bit of a shame but still...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 09 August, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 25 July, 2018, 09:37:50 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 July, 2018, 01:59:06 PM
Is Dredd in it?

No Dredd, but you do get to see Joyce (Snr) spit out his lunch and scream "There's a fella in me pie!"


I remember a panel with an eye looking out of some type of foodstuff, but think that's Emerald Isle?  In which case it's like every appearance of Joyce is accompanied by bits of dead bodies in food.  Did the line 'Irish pies are smiling' get used anywhere?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 09 August, 2018, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2018, 09:32:07 PM
Possibly the most telling thing about the shift 2000ad is still thrashing through is the 'Droid Profile' for Robo-Cook. Now from my very limited interactions with this droid he seems smashing and lovely and in most of the answers he comes across as a cocky young soul enjoying life, as well he should. However:
Quote
What does Judge Dredd look like under his helmet?

Get a life, you sad fanboy

Now this is a fun throw away answer and means diddly squat... or does it speak to the prevailing attitude in the Prog at the time. Its a bold, young thing, punching it way into a bold exciting new era... its problem is it still felts a little ill at ease and ashamed of what its come from and that is going to be a problem for some time!


Was this around the same time that the comic that had previously published Halo Jones now declared that comics are entertainment, nothing else and don't look for deeper meaning?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 09 August, 2018, 03:07:11 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2018, 12:44:04 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 09 August, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2018, 09:01:57 PM

8. Nemesis - The Shape of Things to Come... alas that's actually years of teasing stories about hammers as I recall


I got such kick out of that Prog- Nemesis returns (in full colour) with a cracking cover and absolutely out of the blue.
Then nuthin for 3 more years!

Its an okay story, but sets up something that never really got played with - the idea that all the hate and
vitriol in Termight would led to its own downfall... and a hammer.... there's another short story in the 900s? Then we have to wait for Book X - which moves things in a different direction... oh my memory could be so wrong there!

You're not wrong Colin, another 'teaser' to the final confrontation appeared in Progs 901-903, with some grotesque but brilliant Clint Langley painted art.
Then on to the main event in Book X several years later, which despite featuring some astonishing artwork, fell a bit flat for me too.

Quote from: sheridan on 09 August, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
Did the line 'Irish pies are smiling' get used anywhere?

Sure t'was the name of the story.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 August, 2018, 08:05:44 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 09 August, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
Did the line 'Irish pies are smiling' get used anywhere?

Judge Joyce: When Irish Pies Are Smiling (Judge Dredd Yearbook 1993)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 August, 2018, 08:14:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/wQ5Nhxb.jpg)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 09 August, 2018, 08:34:18 PM
 I seem to recall Pat said that Hammer of the Witches/Warlock got stymied by Langley going off travelling, though why it was curtailed when Nemesis finally returned (other than teh idea of ending the srip in prog 2000) I'm not sure
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 09 August, 2018, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 09 August, 2018, 08:34:18 PM
I seem to recall Pat said that Hammer of the Witches/Warlock got stymied by Langley going off travelling, though why it was curtailed when Nemesis finally returned (other than teh idea of ending the srip in prog 2000) I'm not sure

ISTR Kev O'Neill said he'd draw the last episode on the condition that it was the last episode. Hence the subsequent Termight spin-off with Deadlock (which I'd happily have seen more of).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2018, 10:11:41 PM
Prog 829

Now I accept I've been a bit whiney of late. Ohh this isn't so good. That story was a bit rubbish. Gosh why are the heroes so shouty and twaty... PPPPPOOOOOOOOOOO! I know, I know... I'm sorry I try to focus in the good stuff, but you have to be balanced and honest otherwise saying stuff is good loses its meaning and value...

Then we get to Prog 829 and WAYHEY one of the great Progs... just superb... well okay two of the thrills aren't all that and one is a recap.... but the good stuff is SO good.

Firekind I've waxed lyrical about before, but that opening part is just a masterclass. The purple prose of the first page as our hero travels to his destination all lyrical delight and evocation. Then was our traveller materialises DRAGON IN YOUR FACE.

Seriously it could have been just these two pages and it'd have been one of the all time great openings but no the dragon soars and worlds start to be built with craft and guile... oh my gooey comic juices are just bubbling to pressures they have never been thrust to before and we're only 6 pages into this comics beauty.

Kano ... well all you folks that think Kano doesn't have a place amongst Bad Company I say YOU FOOLS... you fools... you fools. It makes me sad this thrill isn't hailed as an absolute classic on a par with its forebears and set out the themes and reason to love it right from the off. Just like the original it takes a trope, in this case the war veteran trying, but (spoilers) failing to deal with normal civilian life. He won't escape his past, literally and he will question the monster he has become.... its glorious, glorious...

... you fools...

Armoured Gideon is pretty good, Dredd is weak and Kelly's Eye is kinda okay.

But those first two I rub them all over my slightly greasey naked body and wait for the moment to arrive.

Oh Mark Millar's first Dredd next Prog... I've gone all flacid again...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 August, 2018, 10:40:15 PM
From Interrogation (Mark Millar: A World of His Own), Megazine #323 (2012):

(https://i.imgur.com/fRo3849.png)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 August, 2018, 06:42:12 AM
Well at least he's self aware!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 10 August, 2018, 07:20:36 AM
The combination of Millar, Ennis and Morrison was the reason why I left AD at that stage.

Kudos for Millar for at least admitting it. Morrson at least did provided us with Zenith (I still believe to this day that it is his best work/creation ever)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 10 August, 2018, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 10 August, 2018, 06:42:12 AM
Well at least he's self aware!

So was Skynet.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 10 August, 2018, 05:33:41 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 10 August, 2018, 07:20:36 AM
The combination of Millar, Ennis and Morrison was the reason why I left AD at that stage.

Kudos for Millar for at least admitting it. Morrson at least did provided us with Zenith (I still believe to this day that it is his best work/creation ever)

Garth Ennis has said similar (in line with common wisdom, he did some good stuff, some intermediate stuff and some mediocre stuff).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2018, 07:43:16 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 August, 2018, 05:33:41 PM
Garth Ennis has said similar (in line with common wisdom, he did some good stuff, some intermediate stuff and some mediocre stuff).

One thing I'm noticing more about Ennis this time is he seems interested in creating tough, credible villians to fight Dredd, then he cranks a story around them as best he can. We're just had Jonni Kissyface introduced and in Prog 832 we get the hard Scotsman with his killer bagpipes*. Previously we've had Musical Killer Chappie, The Raider, that pair of hitmen whose names I can't remembr... that's just the ones that spring to mind. The trouble is this leads to quite dull repeatative stories that ultimately rung hollow.

Introduce the baddie by having them do something hard and killie. Set up their motive with flashback. Have their motive interconnect with Dredd. Have  them fight Dredd. Dredd, though knackered, wins. Rinse wash repeat. Its just not a great method for coming up with Dredds and its something Ennis seems to fall back on quite a lot.

Anyway if you've got this far I have a question for you. I've just read Prog 833 and next Prog is the Firekind episode mix up (I think - his filter mask has just broken). Now this re-read I'm being good and reading things as they appear in the Prog so my question to you is.

Should I read Firekind as printed, error and all?

The purist in me wants to BUT I adore Firekind and who knows when I'll read it again, so why read it all wonky knowing its not going to take much effort to read it properly like. I'm conflicted...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 11 August, 2018, 09:05:18 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2018, 07:43:16 AM
One thing I'm noticing more about Ennis this time is he seems interested in creating tough, credible villians to fight Dredd, then he cranks a story around them as best he can. We're just had Jonni Kissyface introduced and in Prog 832 we get the hard Scotsman with his killer bagpipes*. Previously we've had Musical Killer Chappie, The Raider, that pair of hitmen whose names I can't remembr... that's just the ones that spring to mind. The trouble is this leads to quite dull repeatative stories that ultimately rung hollow.

Writing Dredd continuously week-in and week-out must surely be a challenge. John Wagner for me is the only person that achieved this so far. We now have a few writers that contribute to Dredd and for me as reader this setup works.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 11 August, 2018, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2018, 07:43:16 AM
Should I read Firekind as printed, error and all?

No.  The writer wanted you to read it in the order they wrote it.   

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 11 August, 2018, 04:42:25 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 August, 2018, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2018, 07:43:16 AM
Should I read Firekind as printed, error and all?

No.  The writer wanted you to read it in the order they wrote it.   

Yes. Because you're not reading a collected edition if Firekind,  you're reading the prog-as-she-was-published: warts and all. Appreciating the tides and calamities that pull the good ship thrillpower hither and thither, like wily Odysseus storm-driven across the wine dark sea, it's the journey that makes the tale.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 11 August, 2018, 09:16:50 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 11 August, 2018, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2018, 07:43:16 AM
Should I read Firekind as printed, error and all?

No.  The writer wanted you to read it in the order they wrote it.   

Put like that, have to agree.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2018, 09:25:03 PM
Look I'm off on me holidays for a week can you chaps kindly reach a consenus by the time I get back. Otherwise we'll have to rely on me coming to a sensible decision we really don't want that to happen do we...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 12 August, 2018, 05:43:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 August, 2018, 04:42:25 PM
it's the journey that makes the tale.

Tordelback's impassioned and poetic argument has swung my vote.  You must read it in the order originally published in order to maintain your credibility.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 August, 2018, 06:09:06 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 12 August, 2018, 05:43:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 August, 2018, 04:42:25 PM
it's the journey that makes the tale.

Tordelback's impassioned and poetic argument has swung my vote.  You must read it in the order originally published in order to maintain your credibility.

That would suggest I have any credibility to start with. Which frankly is a bit of a stretch!

Anyway nothing quite like full internet access when in the lakes to remind you camping is a very different beast than it was in 1993!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 13 August, 2018, 07:51:02 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 August, 2018, 06:09:06 PM
Anyway nothing quite like full internet access when in the lakes to remind you camping is a very different beast than it was in 1993!

If you've found somewhere to camp in the lakes with full internet access then you are definitely proving your case on the credibility issue.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 13 August, 2018, 05:54:49 PM
Do both. Publication order first to maintain that Prog slog feel. Then the intended order to get the story as it was meant to be.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2018, 06:10:58 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 13 August, 2018, 05:54:49 PM
Do both. Publication order first to maintain that Prog slog feel. Then the intended order to get the story as it was meant to be.

Well heart of hearts I always figured I'd end up doing that! It is the kinda thrill once you finish you just want to start again.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2018, 08:19:17 AM
Prog 834 (and 5)

So I went with the purist reading - though suspect I'll go back when the year is out - and read like that, the missing episode in Firekind, in this context its just irritating, but also a tribute to John Smith.

I know what happens, that Larsen is saved from his hallucinations by the tribe... though the specifics escape me... so it just reads like an annoying gap this time. At the time I remember being baffled, but with no explanation I just figured it was all me being dense. Mind this is helped by Smith's craft. Even with an episode removed the fact that Smith knows how to write episodically means you move on from the missing moment and are fully engaged with the episode in front of you and the glory and horrors it brings. The story has shifted into its second phase and you just move with it so engaging is the story.

Just class.

And the level of skills and ability on display is all the more apparent by what else is in the Prog. Ennis provides a substandard Dredd (glorious Mike Austin art its redemning feature) and the genuinely dreadful cliched and so of its time... in the bad way of the worst early 90s comics ... Inferno starts. Millar just seems to think that cranking it all up to 11 is enough.

To be fair it does a lot of things a good first episode should, it sets the scene really well, it introduces you to a host of characters both heroes... well kinda... and villian, so villianous he can make the other villians the heroes. He builds tension and motive... well again kinda. All in just 6 pages, in so many ways its a great first part. Alas its all so crass and childish all the craft in the world can't save it. Bloody awful.

The reason I've dragged 835 into this is that Millar writes the Dredd here too. Demonstrating that all those years ago he could catch onto the world of Dredd perfectly, while completely missing the point. I mean the memories sucked from the poor and sold to the rich and indulged is a pretty good Mega City One story. He then shows how much he wasn't ready to be a comics pro as he demonstrates in one wise cracking, leg blasting page, now little he understands Dredd and how cranking it up to 11 again completely misfires. The trouble is at this time (and some time to come as I recall) taking a good idea and cranking it up to 11 (or more) is all Millar has and he crushes the ideas.

835 is such a fascinating Prog and perfectly encapsulates this time. One half over the top, misjudged (pun intended) trash sits next to fantastic, thoughtful and genuinely compelling thrills, in the other half in the Firekind and Kano... poor old Armoured Gideon playing the part of pretty damned good thrill, but floating intriguingly inbetween these two extremes like a pivot!

I suspect these extremes will leave me with much to say here at least!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 19 August, 2018, 09:44:44 AM
Purgatory is better than Inferno, because it doesn't feature Judge Dredd, and therefore he can't be written out of character.

I've got a guilty soft spot for Purgatory - it is crass, puerile, derivative and unpleasant, but it succeeds in its aims and, like all of Millar's work, tells a story well. (The story may be stupid, or riddled with lapses in logic, but he tells it well.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2018, 12:45:36 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 19 August, 2018, 09:44:44 AM
Purgatory is better than Inferno, because it doesn't feature Judge Dredd, and therefore he can't be written out of character.

I've got a guilty soft spot for Purgatory - it is crass, puerile, derivative and unpleasant, but it succeeds in its aims and, like all of Millar's work, tells a story well. (The story may be stupid, or riddled with lapses in logic, but he tells it well.)

Whoops I  of course meant its Purgatory starting not Inferno... we'll have a lot else to talk about when we get to Inferno!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 19 August, 2018, 07:23:26 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 19 August, 2018, 09:44:44 AM
I've got a guilty soft spot for Purgatory - it is crass, puerile, derivative and unpleasant, but it succeeds in its aims and, like all of Millar's work, tells a story well. (The story may be stupid, or riddled with lapses in logic, but he tells it well.)

Me too. Pure nonsense, but gorgeous to look at, and well, fun - if you can accept the character named 'Grice' (who coincidentally bears a passing resemblance to former Judge Grice), it goes down fairly easy.  Inferno, because it mistreats so many characters and elements, is harder to swallow, despite being equally lovely to look at.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2018, 09:33:30 PM
So Kano finishes and its as good as I remember. Why its not more highy regarded I simply don't know, its wonderful. Now I will accept that its not Bad Company 2 or Bad Company wonderful, but its damned close.

I said this 9 years (gulp) ago:

QuoteKano was great, better even than I remember and while very different in tone to the earlier Bad Company stories it really added to the whole mythos Milligan created and was a fantastic reworking of the whole old soliders finding it hard to live a normal life after a war. Great stuff.

That holds. It now has an added dimension as its provided me more reflections on the current stories. Old soldiers can't die and a good planet gives you what you need. I'd forgotten now many of the ideas of 'First Casulties' and 'Terrorists' have been set up here. I mean I was happy with my reading of those stories but this adds another level.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 19 August, 2018, 10:22:48 PM
Be great if you could expand on this,  because the last two new series make not one jot of sense to me,  and my feelings on Kano are pretty much identical to yours!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 19 August, 2018, 10:40:55 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2018, 09:33:30 PM
So Kano finishes and its as good as I remember. Why its not more highy regarded I simply don't know, its wonderful. Now I will accept that its not Bad Company 2 or Bad Company wonderful, but its damned close.

Not as strong as BC1 or 2 'cos:

1: It feels a bit superfluous. The story concluded as perfectly and definitively as possible at the end of the Krool Heart, and while the Kano story is fine as a coda, it can't have the same weight. Kano and Danny are defined by their relationship to each other and to the Krool. No Krool, no Danny (who are now the same thing anyway) means Milligan has to redefine Kano, and the result is interesting, but not as potent. (Even Kano realises this - look where he's going at the end.)

2: Art's not on the same level as 1 and 2. Again, it's good, but nowhere near as good. 'Scream Blue Murder' is a great cover though.

I do like the story, but I love BC1&2. Passionately.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 20 August, 2018, 03:42:38 AM
Everything after BC 1 & 2 did not really fit in for me. Kano was alright but not in the same class as the proceeding stories.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 August, 2018, 09:46:20 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 19 August, 2018, 10:22:48 PM
Be great if you could expand on this,  because the last two new series make not one jot of sense to me,  and my feelings on Kano are pretty much identical to yours!

Okay so I need to re-read the new stuff to nail this down - and as you can see I'm some way off that - but my first reading is that the first victim of war is truth and on that basis we can dispose of worrying about whats real and not, from either stories before. The stories have value and meaning, even if the truth isn't the facts we see before us, the truth is in what the characters represent and how they are used to expose the various real truths of war, the fate of veterans and the reasons behind war.

Okay that's reading one and the reading I've happy gone with to date and I genuinely thing is expressed in the story.

So in Kano we have a more literal possiblility. In Kano we get ghost of the victims of war solid and real on the planet that is home to those to those that need them. This is true of Kano's wife and child when that was what was needed, it was true of his fallen company when that was what was needed. It was a good planet.

Now maybe Earth is also a good planet and what's needed now is the truth behind the war. The truth of war. So it gives us what we need to learn that.

I have a reputation form getting this kinda thing wrong and I prefer my first reading of things but this is a nice alternative truth for me...

... did I say I often get these things wrong... speaking of which...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 August, 2018, 09:50:13 PM
Speaking of alternative readings I meant to ask this as well last time about Firekind.

Do folks go with a literal reading as presented or the alternative reading that everything after Larsen's mask breaks down is his hallucinations?

I'm happy with both and enjoy the duel possibities, just wondered what others thought?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 20 August, 2018, 11:02:13 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 August, 2018, 09:46:20 PM
Now maybe Earth is also a good planet and what's needed now is the truth behind the war. The truth of war. So it gives us what we need to learn that.

See, that's sort of how I was viewing it, or at least I was vacillating between your two interpretations, but the sticking point for me is that if Earth still exists, then the whole plot of the two original stories is also fantasy (yes, I am aware it's ALL make believe).  If the latter two stories weren't set on Earth, I think it would (mostly) work fine as you describe.

Deep down I believe Milligan just forgot he'd already destroyed Earth, but allowing that the man is cleverer than I could ever hope to be, I find myself opting for the 'the facts don't matter, because truth was the first casualty', and then in short order thinking 'why am I reading page after page of this nonsense, then, gorgeous art aside?'.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 21 August, 2018, 09:12:05 AM
Being very clever and having a good memory for stories you write but probably have not re-read are not the same thing!

For what it's worth, my take on Bad Company (new style) is that Milligan wanted to tell stories about War and Truth and PTSD, and rather than inventing a bunch of new characters he re-used his existing, much beloved Bad Company and doesn't really care about continuity - but certainly with a large dose of 'if war reporting is all lies, who knows WHAT really happened in the past?

I also love the story Kano dearly, even if the art is just not quite as on fire as 1986 Brett Ewins.

As for Firekind, I'm definitely in the camp of 'it's all a hallucination, but it all really happened as well'.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 21 August, 2018, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 August, 2018, 09:50:13 PM
Do folks go with a literal reading as presented or the alternative reading that everything after Larsen's mask breaks down is his hallucinations?
Never really considered this before and don't think it would add much to the story in itself. The best synthesis of the two would be that a hallucination brought on by a psychotropic environment is reality for Larsen and trying to proscribe what he can experience with reference to our own limited sensory apparatus is the unreal. The mode of storytelling attempts to simulate the new sensations and experiences of the character.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 21 August, 2018, 01:47:38 PM
I've always assumed that what Larsen is experiencing isn't so much an hallucination as participation in the very-real psychic world of Gennyo-Leil (sp?).  After all, the drug the poachers are after comes from the lantrisants, the lantrisants are larval Gennyans, and allow control of the Kesheen - the "hallucinogenic" environment is actually integral to the linked consciousness of the world, which has real-world effects, and that's what Larsen experiences. How St Sebastian fits into all this I'm not so certain.

What's always interested me about Firekind is whether the lantrisants are named after Llantrisant in Glamorgan, and if so is there any significance to that...?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 21 August, 2018, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 August, 2018, 01:47:38 PM
What's always interested me about Firekind is whether the lantrisants are named after Llantrisant in Glamorgan, and if so is there any significance to that...?
And is it the same Henrik Larsen who scored 3 goals in the Euro 92 semi-final?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 21 August, 2018, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 August, 2018, 01:47:38 PM
.... the lantrisants are named after Llantrisant in Glamorgan, ...?

Having just survived an incredibly torrid two years in that place, I hope not.  Likely to put me off the story for life if I start making that kind of association! :o
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2018, 09:41:54 PM
And so here we are Prog 842 has been and gone and I'm five issues into the 'Summer Offensive'... why has it taken so long for me to babble? Well truth be told I wanted to get past all the bluster and fuss and just give myself a chance to evaluate the stories as just that 2000ad stories. As frankly once past all the nonsense and I was pleasently surprised how little there was... well aside from a certain annoucement about a certain film, which I'd forgotten happened during all this... anyway yeah once past all that these actually aren't all that bad at all. Certainly in the context of the last few years.

Don't get me wrong they are far, far far from the best but they are also a long way from the worst. So lets do a chart run down, TOTP style... which I'm sure the creators of the Summer Offensive would have thought was soooo cooooool at the time.

And at Number 5 we have - Really and Truly ... which surprises me. I've always remembered this really fondly and quite enjoyed it last time I read it as I recall... but its so... pointless. Its just about nothing. I can neither hate nor enjoy it, glorious art aside, but then there's not a strip in this line-up that is any less than wonderful to look at. Its forgettable and that's the worse crime a 2000ad story can commit. Worse even than...

Number 4 Dredd - Inferno... which at least give me enough reason to truly hate it. Its bloody awful, but at least I care that its bloody awful!

Number 3 Big Dave I always bemoan this is a strip that proves the fact that 2000ad is such a broad church that it can host almost any story done well by being the exception that proves the rule. On this reading though it feels more like a 2000ad story in that it does what 2000ad does well, it takes a pop culture trope and makes it 2000ad's own. In this case it takes the massively popular at the time Viz comic and makes a 2000ad strip out of it. So strangely it is so very 2000ad... still don't think it fits in mind, but I do really enjoy it for its own sake.

Just held off the top spot at Number 2 we find Manic 5. I really enjoy this series it takes Mark Millar's greatest weakness on other strips and gives it a home where it works. Its takes his passion for thinking cranking it number 11 and builds a strip that really sustains that feeble idea. Its got no depth or value, but By George its relentless high octane fun and feels very 2000ad.

But top of the pops this week number one with a bullet is of course Slaughter Bowl John Smith finds a way to make a fantastic story even with the draft rules that seem to surround. Its not his best, but not John Smith's best is still better than most. He uses a frankly superb idea, of course 2000ad should have an armoured dinosaur racing story, like all the best ideas when you see it, it just seems so obvious. John Smith however doesn't just stop there he layers it with a deeply creepy background, fun, rich supporting and even background characters. So intriguing is Stanley - our potentially psychotic protagonist and his hard luck (or is it) story the cool gun toting giant killer reptiles almost becomes an unwanted distraction... well almost they are after all  cool gun toting giant killer reptiles. So yeah this is a superb strip.

The most chilling thing about the summer offensive ... well actually its the coming soon ads. Is that more Fleischer Rogue I see coming... oh and Clown 2... I hope these 'Offensive' strips stick around longer than the 8 episodes I think they all get!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 22 August, 2018, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2018, 09:41:54 PM
Number 3 Big Dave I always bemoan this is a strip that proves the fact that 2000ad is such a broad church that it can host almost any story done well by being the exception that proves the rule. On this reading though it feels more like a 2000ad story in that it does what 2000ad does well, it takes a pop culture trope and makes it 2000ad's own. In this case it takes the massively popular at the time Viz comic and makes a 2000ad strip out of it. So strangely it is so very 2000ad... still don't think it fits in mind, but I do really enjoy it for its own sake.

This is strip that made me stop buying the Prog  :'(
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: IndigoPrime on 22 August, 2018, 03:27:25 PM
Looking at that, the Summer Offensive was for me basically one of John Smith's weaker stories (a stretched-out Future Shock, to some extent), and a load of junk, albeit sometimes good-looking junk. As for Big Dave, just no. Like Millar's Robo-Hunter, its tone-deaf manner of repeatedly punching down made it feel wrong at the time, and it's intolerable trash for me now, on so many levels. And what a waste of Parkhouse's talents. (Incidentally, any Parkhouse fans: read Resident Alien, his rather fab comic with ex-2000 AD Peter Hogan. In another universe, that'd be in 2000 AD on a very regular basis.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 22 August, 2018, 03:35:06 PM
Never heard of Resident Alien,  but Hogan and Parkhouse sounds right up my street!  Pleased to hear 'that notorious fantasist' is still writing too, wonder could he be lured back for something.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 August, 2018, 06:20:37 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 August, 2018, 03:35:06 PM
Never heard of Resident Alien,  but Hogan and Parkhouse sounds right up my street!  Pleased to hear 'that notorious fantasist' is still writing too, wonder could he be lured back for something.

Well waste less time following my rambling nonsense here and more time following my rambling nonsense over at the New Comic Book Day Megathread where I've and other including Hawkmumbler have been shouting about how great this series if mini-series is since it started a good few years ago now.

IndigoPrime is right its excellent.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 23 August, 2018, 12:13:24 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 22 August, 2018, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2018, 09:41:54 PM
Number 3 Big Dave[/b
This is strip that made me stop buying the Prog  :'(

Grud help me, I found it hilarious and still do.

Peaked with Costa Del Chaos though- the panel with Big Dave's plane on fire and crash landing in Tenerife was one of the handful of times I genuinely laughed out load reading the Prog.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 August, 2018, 09:51:09 PM
Well to be honest the Summer Offensive was a bit of a flash in the pan wasn't it. Okay so Inferno goes from bad to worse... or maybe worse to even worse... or even worse to unbelivably bad.... maybe unbeliev... well you get the idea, its just shocking (though as memory serves theres worse to come alas) its all change elsewhere and frankly its as if our little experiment never happened.

We get four 'mini-series' of two parts each, simple palette cleansers. To be honest there's nothing that really stands out - though I was wrong about no more Fleisher Rogue. Anyway its all a chance to catch breathe and it all feels quite safe after what's gone before.

In Prog 852 things get real though. With another launch Prog proper and its not bad. I mean it will be a long time I suspect until we get a 5 for 5 prog, but by now we've all readjusted our expectations right? Mean Arena doesn't really grab, but the opening to Tyranny Rex which follows it more than makes up for that. Its astonishing and just grabs you by the purple prose and powered by frankly astonishing art by Mark Buckingham - some of my favourite ever in 2000ad - we are just drawn straight into a conflicit we might not yet understand, but I can't help but be compelled by.

There is more gorgeous art in the welcome return of Robo-Hunter in a paletable form at long last. I'm a big fan of the Peter Hogan + Rian Hughes Sam Slade though I have to be honest, charming humour aside it doesn't get going in its opener. Slaine is much the same - Glenn Fabry turns in a treat for the eyes, even if the story feels reheated and in some ways is just that.

The thing is while I'm no complete detracter of the difference that Prog 842 introduced this feels like home. Its not a great Prog, though the art is uniformly fantastic, but there's a much richer sense of variety and even if these aren't the best, most compelling openers they give you enough to be glad to be back on familar ground.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 27 August, 2018, 05:09:50 AM
I haven't read prog 852 since it was published 25 years ago, so my opinion may have changed: but I recall liking things in this order (best first):  Tyranny Rex, Slaine, Robo-Hunter, Mean Arena, Dredd: Inferno.  And those last three could be in almost any order.

What's great about 2000AD is that there's quality to be had in all the strips (even when they're in some way sub par), you can probably guarantee that what you disliked was thought of fondly by some other readers and, most importantly, there was always something amazing going on.

1993 was a tricky year but I found Flesh: The Legend of Shamana interesting.  Then we got Firekind, Armoured Gideon, Slaughterbowl, Tyranny Rex and Canon Fodder.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 August, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 August, 2018, 05:09:50 AM
... What's great about 2000AD is that there's quality to be had in all the strips (even when they're in some way sub par), you can probably guarantee that what you disliked was thought of fondly by some other readers and, most importantly, there was always something amazing going on.

Yeah I pretty much hold to this. I mean there are a few strips that book the trend but overall they tend to be the ones that commit that cardial 2000ad sin being dull and unmemorable. For just about ever strip I struggle with and mention here someone will find some reason to enjoy it, or often outright love it.

Its one of the joys of 2000ad and 2000ad fandom we're a diverse bunch!

Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 August, 2018, 05:09:50 AM
1993 was a tricky year but I found Flesh: The Legend of Shamana interesting.  Then we got Firekind, Armoured Gideon, Slaughterbowl, Tyranny Rex and Canon Fodder.

I'll save this quote for then I get to the end of the year...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 August, 2018, 04:22:48 PM
So an early start, and good use of breaks during a chore filled bank holiday find me flying through Progs and heading towards the end of 1993. To be honest since since 852 things have been ticking along quite nicely. Robohunter was a cute little short story replaced by an effective Ennis Strontium Dogs story. Dredd improves fractionally as 'Inferno' finishes and Millar does some... well not exactly passible but not as bad as 'Inferno' shorts. Mind 'Book of the Dead' has just started and over at another thread Jim (I think it was) said this was the worst Dredd Epic... now while I don't consider this an epic and I do recall its pretty poor its not 'Crusade' or 'Frankenstein Division' poor if memory serves.

The first 'book' of 'Tyranny Rex - De Ex Machina' is pretty damned excellent. Thrilling, intriguing and full of enough purple prose to surprise you that it actually reads really fluidly. 'Mean Arena' isn't too bad at all. I thought I hated this thrill and it does suffer from yet another charmless hard man hero - but to be honest its biggest problem is it all just feels a bit pointless and cliche - even for the time I suspect. It builds itself on numerous prison and future sport tropes. Its really does have nothing new to say at all BUT isn't as bad as many recent poor thrills.

Really though I'm here to talk about Slaine - Demon Killer. I love this period of Slaine and aside form the early stuff in the first run this is my favourite period of Slaine... yes I've said it I think this is better than 'Horned God' and even 'The King' (which I also prefer to 'Horned God' if I'm honest. Really enjoy this and the next book and think Dermot Power makes a good job of carrying on Glenn Fabry's frankly astonishing art in the first seven parts and as I recall continues to do a great job on Book 2.

Why this resonants with me more than more popular stories I'm not sure. I certainly enjoy a good Roman based story, and this is a little 2000ad does Asterix the Gaul in that there's a lot of fun and roman bashing. Its just here the roman do rather so the effects in ways other than twisted armour, broken spears and lumps and bumps!

But I think its more than that. Its not as if its freed all of the tired themes that Mills labours, however it does push them further back. Its almost as if Mills is liberated by the focus shifting to a lot of anarchic violence. By pushing his Millian thoughts a little to the side they perversely come across more effectively. By not ramming them down our throats and instead ramming axes through a variety of legionaries's torso's it all feels a bit more balanced.

Elfric is also pretty effective here, if a little gauche. He suits the excesses of the popularist view of the Roman Empire and all of Slaine benefits from no 'leyser' guns.

Looking forward to see how much this improvement sustains before the dip, or even crash starts. I'm confident that the next book is great, worry about the Robin Hood one, my confidence returns for the King Author one... but I think after that we'll be in a mire of subpar Slaine... his hit to miss rate is pretty bad in my eyes... or at least my memories minds eye.

We'll see huh...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 27 August, 2018, 08:30:22 PM
That Slaine journey will be interesting to watch!  While I had little or no time for this period of Slaine while it was running,  on reading it in the collections there was something good in most of it,  possible exception being the Braveheart one.  The Robin Hood one remains a favourite.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 August, 2018, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 August, 2018, 08:30:22 PM
That Slaine journey will be interesting to watch!  While I had little or no time for this period of Slaine while it was running,  on reading it in the collections there was something good in most of it,  possible exception being the Braveheart one.  The Robin Hood one remains a favourite.

Yeah have to be honest can't quite remember the order of things I know the Robin Hood one was in before I bailed first time round. Then the Arthur one is after that as that was just as I bailed, though I don't think I got to the second half... all the stuff after I've read since but I'm shakier on the order, but its all a bit rubbish as I recall, the crusades one and the Braveheart one?

Anyway still rattling through today and there are two very contrasting stories that are raising an eyebrow.

Timehouse should be an interesting piece. Its not, but it could have been. The strip I think its most similar to is Zippy Couriers, certainly in tone at least. The trouble is it lacked the courage of that series to be something different. Zippy Couriers knew what it was doing and how it could be so different to 2000ad while still having the drive to fit in. Timehouse could have worked just as well. A slice of life, if that slice of life has a 2000ad twist to it. In this case a house containing all of time. That should cover it, yeah.

Alas not so. It takes that premise, one with such promise and fumbles it by throwing so much in first time out. Not satisfied with a house holding all of time they throw in a fantasy land and Santa. Rather than build the cast we get like eleventyywelve folks chocked by about six plots (most very weak) and nothing gets to gel.

I do wonder if given more time and courage this could have worked. Hogan has real talent and its a great concept, alas this lacked conviction.

One strip that certainly doesn't lack conviction is Cannon Fodder it knows what it wants to be and blasts out the blocks to try to achieve that. The trouble is what it wants to be is Mark Millar doing John Smith and we don't need that cos we have John Smith doing John Smith at this time and Mark Millar has about 0.024% of the guile of our Mr Smith.

Its a shame as it does somethings very well. I was surprised to find that it actually told a relatively simple story. It tricks you into thinking its all slippy and interesting, but its direct and straightforward. In doing that it hangs on loads of bells and whistles in the same way that Timehouse does, however its simple story lets it get away with that. Its tries to push buttons and become better than it is but its forced and very deliberate, unable to relax it wants so badly to be what its not. That being as intelligent and as crafted as a John Smith story. Its uses shock value where John Smith can be shocking. It uses cheap thrills when John Smith can be thrilling. Its smart ass where as John Smith is smart.

Two tales of what could have been then.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2018, 09:15:43 AM
1994 Specials

"Even bigger guns!!!" proclaims the 1994 Sci-Fi Special and in one sentence, with three exclaimation marks, we have neatly summarised one of 2000ad's biggest problems at this time. Why is that important, they might as well have said "With more pouches than a Liefeld comic!!!$%%£^!".

Anyway inside its not actually too bad an interesting John Smith Friday Rogue story, an okay Bix Barton, a slightly meandering Brigand Doom (what did happen to the gun?) an okay Manic 5 and an almost very interesting Strontium Dogs, with a very mysterious particle and I think views on religion. Not too bad for one of these Specials of this time. Even the reprint looks great and in the case of Dredd (the only Dredd is reprint which is interesting) one of my favs in 'I, monster' with Cam Kennedy.

The Winter Special is worthy of note for packing a LOT of strips in with hardly any filler, or text pieces. You really do get a lot of comic for your money. I mean, sure its not all good, but still.

Sonny Steelgrove makes his Dredd debut (I think its his first) Dredd, of course just another name for Alan McKenzie to write himself a paycheck (though to be fair I don't think he was the editor at this point?). This one, with Dredd inexplicably trapped in an interrogation cell with a prisoner,  isn't as smart I you get the impression it wants to be.

Two strips that made their debut never to return (I think maybe Tracer pops up again given it got an A-Z entry recently, don't remember it doing so???) in Canned Heat and Tracer, neither is really missed. A handy dandy recap in Brigand Doom, Toa do Moto seems to set up a sequel which we never get? A Tharg strip showing these once fun little sideshows have lost much of their charm. We also get two stories setting up the next appearance of characters in the Prog in Janus and Manic 5. Neither of which really add to the final product if we're honest.

So yeah a lot of bang for your (comic)book. Much of it foreshadowing stuff that will appear in 1994 (I think) but a lot of it never really seeing light of day. So the Winter Special becomes a very real testing ground... which in a couple of years will really pay off big time, but thats for 1996.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 August, 2018, 10:29:47 AM
That's the '93 special, isn't it? For me, that was a major comedown. 1992's special was one of my favourite 2000 AD things at the time – some fab Nemesis, a chilling Indigo Prime, and a decent Blackblood. (Let's ignore Millar Does Misogyny... Again in the otherwise nicely illustrated Tales From Beyond Science.) And then 1993 was just so... inconsequential. A dumping ground for crap the publisher no longer had space for elsewhere (what with Altern-8, or whatever it was called, not being greenlit), surrounded by other crap. Also, quite what someone was thinking with the Psi Div uniform designs feature, I don't know.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 28 August, 2018, 05:52:10 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2018, 09:15:43 AM

Sonny Steelgrove makes his Dredd debut (I think its his first) Dredd, of course just another name for Alan McKenzie to write himself a paycheck (though to be fair I don't think he was the editor at this point?). This one, with Dredd inexplicably trapped in an interrogation cell with a prisoner,  isn't as smart I you get the impression it wants to be.

The pseudonym was shared by Mackenzie and Tomlinson - though this is credited in a collected edition as a Mackenzie story, he says he didn't write it, so it must be a Tomlinson.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2018, 08:57:46 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 August, 2018, 10:29:47 AM
That's the '93 special, isn't it?

You are quite right of course I was foolishly using the annual years for the specials as well. Please replace all reference to 1994 with 1993...

Except here as I'm talking about Yearbook 1994 and in this case I mean that.

Its not that bad. I mean its not brilliant, but I was really down on these and they haven't been entirely terrible.

This one has a glorious and fun Dredd by Wagner and Burns. A forboding Tyranny Rex. A foreshadowing Luke Kirby. For... cute Rob-Hunter (the good Hogan and Hughes kind). A formidable Big Dave origin... and an okay Terror Tale.

Mind to balance that we get a pretty terrible Tharg, The Clown and Rogie (original) by Millar with some pretty ugly art.

Amongst all that there is the intriguing 'Burning Man'. Clearly this was meant to be the start of something by Ezquerra and ??? John Wagner according to Barney... I wonder what. I'm sure it will have been mentioned down the line somewhere but I can't remember where? Anyway interesting.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 28 August, 2018, 09:13:55 PM
Like Canned Heat and Tracer, Burning Man is a leftover from the aborted Earthside 8 comic. It's a shame nothing more came of it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
Twofer from me this evening as we bring 1993 to an end with Prog 867

What a chuffin' annoyin' Prog. Not specifically the content, but an end of year Prog with three chuffin' new thrills starting... normally this would be a right pain, however fortunately my read / re-read block is clear and I'll be moving onto the new year pretty much straight away a quick trip to the nerd cave willin'...

Oh and how are those new thrills. Well first they are surrounded by needless Dredd and the end to Cannon Fodder that neither adds or takes away from what I said last night. Soul Gun Warrior and Revere Book III sit really well with better elements of the bold and thrusting teenage 2000ad. Smart and edgy, different and intriguing the very best of the new age. To be fair Mother Earth tries to be this too... its just not really there yet. Still it avoids the worst excesses of the bland hard man and so we'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now... mind as my memory of it is filled with much doubt I'm not sure why!

Anyway the end of 1993 says much the time we are in. Its trying really hard to find its place and at moments its youthful rigour and pretensions shine through as vital genius... but then like all teenagers at other times it can be a bit of a daft cock!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2018, 09:18:58 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 28 August, 2018, 09:13:55 PM
Like Canned Heat and Tracer, Burning Man is a leftover from the aborted Earthside 8 comic. It's a shame nothing more came of it.

OH yes that's right, that's ringin' bells now. Thanks Greg it does explain why there are so many of these dotted around at the moment!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 August, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Oh wow was just about to start yacking about stuff 1994 and I realised I'd not reviewed 1993

Mind in part that's cos I think I've said two key things already. Those being...

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 August, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 August, 2018, 05:09:50 AM
... What's great about 2000AD is that there's quality to be had in all the strips (even when they're in some way sub par), you can probably guarantee that what you disliked was thought of fondly by some other readers and, most importantly, there was always something amazing going on.

Yeah I pretty much hold to this. I mean there are a few strips that book the trend but overall they tend to be the ones that commit that cardial 2000ad sin being dull and unmemorable. For just about ever strip I struggle with and mention here someone will find some reason to enjoy it, or often outright love it.

Its one of the joys of 2000ad and 2000ad fandom we're a diverse bunch!

Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 August, 2018, 05:09:50 AM
1993 was a tricky year but I found Flesh: The Legend of Shamana interesting.  Then we got Firekind, Armoured Gideon, Slaughterbowl, Tyranny Rex and Canon Fodder.

I'll save this quote for then I get to the end of the year...

And
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
Anyway the end of 1993 says much the time we are in. Its trying really hard to find its place and at moments its youthful rigour and pretensions shine through as vital genius... but then like all teenagers at other times it can be a bit of a daft cock!

And okay I only really said one of these and Funt Solo set me up with the other

Since I'm in a quotery mood (yes, yes that is a word) I said back in 1992 (review of)

QuoteAnyway 1993 beckons and this one is going to be very interesting. 1992 has brought us the green shots of recovery... 1993  will bring 2000ad's enfant terribles to test how robust they are... mind one of them John Smith will be coming into a bit of a purple (prose) patch, so I'm genuinely excited to see how the balances falls to this re-readers eyes.

And these three perfectly sum 1993 up. Its a damned interesting year with 2000ad really throwing itself to extremes.

Funnily enough I thought it would be the 'Summer Offensive' that was the main talking point this year, but really its just a bit of a side show, a blip in a otherwise highly entertaining year. Oh its been far from good, but while we're miles below the consistent quality of the early to mid 80s we're miles ahead of the lows a couple of years ago.

The best thing about 1993 is I bet if you stuck 50 life long 2000ad fans in a room and asked them which strips where good and which strips sucked in 1993 you'd get 50 very different answer... and a bit of a spat, until we all made up and huddled down at the bar to kiss and make up. After all just like villagers in some northern village in Gaul (sorry reading a lot of Asterix at the moment, its on my mind) we like nothing more than a good out ruck. Deep down however we love each other.

1993 really emphasizes that. Some of the stories are just brilliant, some of them are just terrible and you've seen my list here so I'll not harp on,  you've seen chunks of other folks likes and dislikes too. I disagree with 30% of what Funt Solo says above and it speaks to 2000ad that I do so while still agreeing to 70%. And 1993 is probably the finest example of the extremes 2000ad is capable of and that's why I suspect I've whittered more about this year than any other.

Its never been boring. At times its offered stuff that's as bad as anything that's been in the Prog. At other times its offered stuff that's as good as anything that's been in the Prog. Most importantly the middle ground is getting thinner and its never been boring, so ya know what I call this a win, even a big win.

As I recall I might be able to cut and paste this for my 1994 review. Lets rip into each other, then make up and hold hands as we find out in 1994.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: PsychoGoatee on 31 August, 2018, 07:17:49 AM
Well said, good re-read reviews as always!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 31 August, 2018, 12:10:24 PM
I do seem to have a bit of an obsession with early 90s 2000AD, and I've never entirely understood why. Obviously part of it is that this is when I became a full-fledged read the Prog every week fan, primed by Tharg's hype machine to assume ever upcoming thrill was going to be the greatest thing ever.

But I think you've hit the nail on the head with the observation that although fans largely agree this was perhaps the worst of times for 2000AD (1995/1996 might be the last gasp of truly terrible?), there's very little agreement on which strips exactly were the good ones, and which were execrable.

I mean, everyone loves Button Man and Firekind, and everyone hates Mark Millar RoboHunter and Michael Fleisher Rogue Trooper but beyond that it's a toss-up.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 August, 2018, 10:11:34 PM
Fight. Fight. Fight - Prog 871

Fisticuffs dominate three strips in Prog 871. And in these scraps we see so much about this time and the differences between the folks that created them and their view of what makes 2000ad.

Round 1 sees a Mark Millar bout between Joe 'The Judge' Dredd (or at least an approximation there of) and Project 'Made of dead Russians' X in what I always call the "Worst Dredd Story EVEEEERRRRRR".

I can't, just can't let this tosh pass without comment... and when I say comment I mean whining about how awful it is.

This entire story is pointless, craftless (art aside) gash. It lacks any reason to exist, is utterly simple and worthless (art aside). This episode, its final though takes something utterly without merit (art aside) and at least makes you laugh with exasperation. In this fight Dreddy Dreadful stops the unstoppable monster, perviously, blasted, blown up and burnt with no apparent harm and beats him down by pistol whipping him and then punching him (there is a gun shot inbetween these two BUT the story has well established by this point that countless bullets have no impact). Its turns the banal into the ridiculous and then some.

Round 2 in a Millar / Morrison / Williams presentation we have Manchester's hardest man facing off with Britain's hardest from Teeside as Big Dave has a ruck with Ballser.

Now I've talked about Big Dave recently and I certainly don't dislike it and while I've said in the past it has no place in Tharg's organ I'm beginning to see how it might. The trouble is while its funny and the satire well targetted and direct in the way of Viz its a very limited strip and once its said its piece doesn't really have anything new to add what's gone before. And that's a perfect summary of this barney. Its boisterous and fun if really absolutely nothing new at all, even if its trying to be.

Rounnnnnnnnd 3 in a fight that's out of this world brought to you by the one and only Shakey 'Kane' 2000 we have Kim 'The Soul Gun Warrior' West vs. Uri 'Yes that one' Gagarin.

Now this one sees our two combatants fighting on top of a Space Shuttle, breaking through dimensional barriers while trading economic and political tit for tat, with genuine ingenuitity, sharp and purposeful satire and originality that befits the Galaxies Greatest. See this does what 2000ad does best - takes a popular cultural reference - in this case the slugfest - and spins it in a truly fresh and anarchic way.

The fight like the rest of this story is absolutely knockout.

So there we see in three strips doing basically the same thing in one Prog the great diversity we can get in 2000ad. In the same moment the vast diversity in quality we have at this time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 03 September, 2018, 10:55:49 AM
Honestly, I get the hate for 'Frankenstein Division', I really do, but I honestly kinda like the basic premise of the story. Goodness knows plenty of writers have gone to the well of 'what happened to the nuked-out remains of East Meg 1', and it's a fertile well.

The hateful thing, as you say, is that final episode, in which Dredd wins through sheer violence. Wagner and Grant would've come up with some clever or at least satisfying way to destroy the monster, even if it was just hitting it with yet more nukes. Or maybe the monster actually being a psychic projection of guilt from Dredd's colleagues (defeated by the relaisation that Dredd himself, doesn't feel guilty at all). I've never understood this passion of Millar's to have heroes winning battles by just punching more and harder. Is it some obsession with that old Spider-Man story where he throws off the heavy weight? Or just an inability to think up a plot-based conflict resolving solution?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 03 September, 2018, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 03 September, 2018, 10:55:49 AM
Honestly, I get the hate for 'Frankenstein Division', I really do, but I honestly kinda like the basic premise of the story.

The whole awful thing kinda hinges on Justice Dept generously repatriating all the Sov Judge corpses from MC-1 after the war (instead of shovelling them into giant burial pits, as they tend to do with their own citizens when Resyk can't handle it).  The TADs surely can't have left much in the way of bodies to work with in East Meg 1.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 03 September, 2018, 04:54:27 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 September, 2018, 01:54:13 PM
The whole awful thing kinda hinges on Justice Dept generously repatriating all the Sov Judge corpses from MC-1 after the war (instead of shovelling them into giant burial pits, as they tend to do with their own citizens when Resyk can't handle it).

Not only that, but the Sovs somehow knowing which of the (tens of?) thousands of dead were killed specifically by Dredd himself...!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 04 September, 2018, 10:47:26 AM
OK, fair points on the lack of believable logic there! But the giant man-monster made of stitched together recipients of Dredd's bullets is, for me, a decent stab at a villain concept. Especially as rendered by King Carlos.

But I'm done defending the story, don't worry!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 04 September, 2018, 10:55:38 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 04 September, 2018, 10:47:26 AM
But the giant man-monster made of stitched together recipients of Dredd's bullets is, for me, a decent stab at a villain concept. Especially as rendered by King Carlos.

Point and point.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 September, 2018, 10:15:54 PM
QuoteThe best thing about 1993 early 1994 is I bet if you stuck 50 life long 2000ad fans in a room and asked them which strips where good and which strips sucked in 1993  early 1994 you'd get 50 very different answer... and a bit of a spat, until we all made up and huddled down at the bar to kiss and make up

See, see. Do you see what I mean!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 05 September, 2018, 12:29:44 AM
1994 doesn't start well: Frankenstein Division, Big Dave, Soul Gun Warrior, Mother Earth and Revere.  Even the "Tharg's Thrill Archives" on the back covers are promoting some lower echelon series: Universal Soldier, Wire Heads and Trash.

It does pick up, though, with the Journal of Luke Kirby (Sympathy for the Devil) and Tyranny Rex (Deux Ex Machina) being the top tier, Dinosty providing the Marmite and Judge Dredd (The Sugar Beat) and Rogue Trooper (Scavenger of Souls) being the margarine (in a convoluted sandwich metaphor that's making me increasingly hungry). 

Later, The Clown (Behind the Painted Mask) becomes the best thing in the prog.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Aaron A Aardvark on 05 September, 2018, 08:23:10 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 05 September, 2018, 12:29:44 AM
Frankenstein Division, Big Dave, Soul Gun Warrior, Mother Earth and Revere.  Even the "Tharg's Thrill Archives" on the back covers are promoting some lower echelon series: Universal Soldier, Wire Heads and Trash.
We're approaching the point when I returned from my Long Walk so right now that's just a collection of random words for me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 05 September, 2018, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 05 September, 2018, 12:29:44 AM
... and Revere.

1994 may not start well, but the presence of Revere, one of the finest stories ever published in the prog, is at least something. Interesting to see how it reads on a week in week out basis - it is spectacularly powerful read as a whole, but it really hits its stride in book 2, once the direction of the series becomes clear.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2018, 09:24:59 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 05 September, 2018, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 05 September, 2018, 12:29:44 AM
... and Revere.

1994 may not start well, but the presence of Revere, one of the finest stories ever published in the prog, is at least something. Interesting to see how it reads on a week in week out basis - it is spectacularly powerful read as a whole, but it really hits its stride in book 2, once the direction of the series becomes clear.

Yeah I shouldn't have let Revere pass without special comment. Its been a great series, particularly the final two books. Simon Harrison is just a brilliant artist and carries a story that is both complex and engaging without missing a beat.

Intersting then to compare it to 'Dinosity' which started in Prog 873 and I'm now four parts into. Clint Langley's art, while now fantastic on the right strip, is just cluttered here and the storytelling is pretty poor. That said I'm not sure its telling much of a story.

Two other stories coming out of the same launch Prog are very weak as well. There's a simply terrible 'Rogue Trooper' and editorial tidying of Michael Fleisher's work under the guise of Falco isn't saving this one.

'Sugar Beat' in Dredd is just a horrible waste of some of Ron Smith's best work in the Prog for a while, it looks just glorious. This story however would be as discussed with Robo-Hunter classic 'Football Crazy' for its casual racism if it was any better. As it is its very poor and pretty dull and hence draws no attention to itself and its rubbish and relentless use of sterotypes. The highlight by part 4 has been the amusing fact that Dredd has been carting his hold all around with him since he landed in Hideoussterotypeville or whatever the place is called. That was pretty funny to be honest. The rest is crap.

So thank Tharg for Luke Kirby and Tyranny Rex then huh. These aren't good times however good those two series are.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 September, 2018, 09:17:07 PM
Boy and I thought swapping out Luke Kirby for Grudge-father in Prog 878 was a bad deal and the we get to

Prog 881

Didn't think we'd get to this but the line-up in this Prog is:

Dredd - by Steelgrave and Austin
Grudge-father - Millar and McCarthy (Jim)
Dinosity - Mills and Langley
Robo-Hunter - Millar and Jacob
Clown 2 - Goldkind and Bliss

For me, on paper that a 0 out of 5. Haven't seen that before. I mean its not necessarily the creative line-ups. I've loved some Mills and Langely, but Dinosity is a muddy mess and... well some of the artists are top draw... but ouch...

As it happens I quite like the Manchu Candidate. As I recall (well from some comments here that I remember, not my shakey noggin!) it doesn't really go anywhere, or at least the Sino City stuff. But as a story its okay.

When you look at that line up and reflect on Tyranny Rex: Deus Ex Machina which has just departed, you begin to realise that during this time the Prog is hanging on with a few fine, fine writers and whatever they produce. John Smith showed an absoutely devine skill in using the two parts of this Tyranny story to shift tone, and in the second part, for large parts at least, as Tyranny becomes her old self the purple prose disappears and its a gloriously realised race against time. The clock being counted in nuns and approaching sea horses. The world then crashes and Tyranny ascends and the tone shifts again with it. Even though its not Smith's best its a masterclass...

... but he's one man and while some others pop up with gems, with Mills in a real low point and Wagner off busy elsewhere and Ennis called away it shouldn't really be a surpise we came to this!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 07 September, 2018, 09:21:51 PM
Yeah. We're at the absolute bottom here. I think I singled out 883 as the worst prog ever, but it's probably got the same line-up... anyone who says any prog in the last twenty years was "as bad as the 90s" clearly never read anything in the 880s.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 September, 2018, 10:04:51 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 September, 2018, 09:21:51 PM
Yeah. We're at the absolute bottom here. I think I singled out 883 as the worst prog ever, but it's probably got the same line-up... anyone who says any prog in the last twenty years was "as bad as the 90s" clearly never read anything in the 880s.

I actually read 883 tonight as well and I think I agree that 883 is probably worse. The difference is of course is Dinosity or Babe Race 2000 worse. The answer is simple, while Dinosity is an awful mess at least its not an apalling awful mess like Babe Race 2000.

Just that 881 was the first to get to the 0 out of 5 thrills that meant I popped for that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 September, 2018, 09:32:45 PM
Blooming heck these are rough times.

882 - same line up as 881 and just as bad

883 - as alluded to Dinosity gives way to Babe Race 2000 - which a real 2000ad low point (the story as well as the Prog), just a nasty strip.

884 - Grudge Father steps aside for the return of Luke Kirby in the satisfying but not as good as the previous teo Sympathy with the Devil and John Higgins plays with Dredd, so two postives.

885 - Robo-Hunter is replaced with a weak Bradley I didn't really enjoy, but did more than Robo-hunter. Its not an improvement worth getting too excited about

886 - We have the line-up that will see us through to relaunch. Dredd (very poor), Clown, Babe Race, Luke Kirby and Bradley. Its rough. The most interesting thing is the fact that the Dredd seems to be a story very much lost in time  as its clearly a direct follow up from Inferno, and we didn't need reminding about that!

887 and 888 as you where then.

So there we have it. Early to mid 1994 stamps over those green shoots of recovery. Firmly. Roll on Prog 889 and its all new line-up... the back cover of 888 gives me some hope that things will get better but from this lowest of low points that's not really saying much is it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Lobo Baggins on 11 September, 2018, 08:40:41 AM
Ugh - you'd think something called Babe Race 2000 would be sexy and funny, and failing that, sexy OR funny. But it's neither.  It doesn't even have a plot, it's just a load of mindless dismemberments.

Who was this even aimed at?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 11 September, 2018, 09:15:59 AM
Quote from: Lobo Baggins on 11 September, 2018, 08:40:41 AM
Who was this even aimed at?

Teenage me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2018, 09:31:54 PM
Well lets move past all that and enjoy what the relaunch prog 889 has to offer hey and by George its a solid turn around... I mean its not perfect but thank Tharg its step in the right direction. Mind it has the MASSIVE advantage of

WAGNER BACK ON DREDD...

... okay so Time Machine isn't the best but

WAGNER BACK ON DREDD

... the follow up Conspiracy of Silence is shapin' up nicely... even if Mark Harrison just doesn't seem ready for the big time yet. He has his traditonal storytelling issues but added to this some dodgy anatomy... he goes much better pretty quickly as I recall...still

WAGNER BACK ON DREDD.

There's much more to say about the stories coming out of 889, but that can wait for now I'll just revel on...

... well you got it by now.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 September, 2018, 10:09:42 PM
So the post 889 line-up starts to draw to a close. In Prog 896 two thrills end. But before I get to them I'll just segway to my old sparing partner Rogue Trooper which has tried to spread its wings.

In 889 it got a new creative team in a four part story. The ever brilliant Henry Flint, maybe not fully formed, but still really great on the eye in this his first (it was his first right?) 2000ad work. New (wayhey) writer Steve White tries what I think is a new narrative trick of having captions giving narrative from Rogue ... this might not be new but its the first time for quite some time I've been paying enough attention to really notice if not... anyway all it serves to do is make me find new ways to think Rogue is a bit of a rubblish character... when will I learn each time I see something new on this series I give it a try, with as open a mind as possible... by its return in 896 I'm already losing hope.

Still 889 did bring a number of strips I enjoyed to varying degrees. Firstly Mambo which to be honest I've not paid a great deal of attention to before. It first appeared when I was living it up at Uni and I'm not sure how engaged I got with it when catching up getting home. In subsequent re-reads I think I'd set it in my head it was a bit rubbish and again not really invested. Which is a shame cos its pretty good. Future cop, body horror pretty much gets you up to speed with what its about.

It does have one major fault and that's the way rather than trying to weave the back story into the developing adventure, after an all too brief introduction of a couple of parts, we get a great big 3 and 1/2 part sloppy dollop of back story ejaculated all over us. The thing is its very enjoyable. Just messy and all loose in its delivery. Shame as part 7 inserting back into the 'current' story we were so abruptly pulled out of, is just superb and the fate of Mambo's father is gloriously grim even for the body tentacle shocker. I'm really looking forward to this returning as I remember nowt about them and hopefully with the sticky matter of that setup thrust so harshly into our thrill holes out the way, we'll be able to grab the extending flesh bits and run.

No such problem in Slaine, which I really love. The tale of Boudica and Slaine rampaging through Roman Britain until their inevitable defeat is just great fun. The violence and adventure stride to the forefront and the revisiting of the same themes slides patiently to the background. Not gone, which is a good thing, but not dominant and smoothering. Characters are wonderfully black and white, while shaded in grey superficially.

The art however radiates wonderful painted colour used so well, as so often its not.

Elfric and all the El stuff so gunned down by lasers in the past is allowed to shine in true fixed grin evil. Seriously this is all some of my favourite Slaine stuff. As I've said I rate this stuff more than ya Horned God. Okay so I should whine about some historical stuff that Pat's famous research got a little wrong - based on my historical research, but then I don't recall there being a 20 foot warped warrior and a blue demon in any of the stuff I read so best to move on and just roll in the fun.

More stuff will be ending soon and I WILLBETELLINGYOU all about it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 September, 2018, 09:31:20 PM
Time for some quick points as we take a break before the interesting experiment that is Prog 900.

1. Chris Standley - who I don't remember doing anything else in the Prog (we got a thread for that now) did a couple of really interesting and fun Dredds in 'Moving Violation' and 'TV Babies'.

2. Peter Doherty on art duties for both sure helps.

3. Mike White's cameo on Armoured Gideon might be a lot shorter than I remembered but by George (or Frank, or Bill, Or Rick, Or Wolfie...) what a trimpuh it is.

4. I really don't like those caption boxes in Rogue Trooper.

5. But I really do like Henry Flints proto-art on it.

6. Happy with the short return of Strontium Dogs, its a fun little turn.

7. Very happy with the short return of Brigand Doom. My theory that this strip was a classic deminishing returns was utter poppycock. This last thrill (is it???) is absolutely great.

8. Arh the movie news in 898 ... I remember getting so excited about it all.

9. The Wagner Dredd in 899, with Ron Smith, is great and I don't help but think it was intended to be an 'intro' Dredd for a jump on Prog. Very possibly 900 before the Rogue experiment.

10. I have no memory of the 'Jaguar' games console that gets a full page spread in 899

11. I've always had very fond memories of Armoured Gideon 'The Collector' and it really hold up. Its such fun. The appearance of the old characters has a really good context provided by The Collector and feels more than a cheap way to appeal to the old crowd, while at the same time being just that... which meant it appealed to me then and now. Oh and Frank Weitz remains a superb character... is this it for Armoured Gideon too? If so like Brigand Doom it ends on a high... if either of them end...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 14 September, 2018, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 September, 2018, 09:31:20 PM
10. I have no memory of the 'Jaguar' games console that gets a full page spread in 899

The only thing you need to know is there was a fighting game with a Scotchman who could  shoot fireballs from under his kilt[/url. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-SFpdOgCdM)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: abelardsnazz on 14 September, 2018, 12:38:22 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 September, 2018, 09:31:20 PM

1. Chris Standley - who I don't remember doing anything else in the Prog (we got a thread for that now) did a couple of really interesting and fun Dredds in 'Moving Violation' and 'TV Babies'.

I seem to recall him receiving a co-writing credit on some Tyranny Rex - Soft Bodies, possibly - although neither Barney nor Wikipedia confirm this. Any of the hive mind know?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 September, 2018, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: abelardsnazz on 14 September, 2018, 12:38:22 PM
I seem to recall him receiving a co-writing credit on some Tyranny Rex - Soft Bodies, possibly - although neither Barney nor Wikipedia confirm this. Any of the hive mind know?

Yes. I remember a couple of co-writing credits with Smiffy (he also introduced John to German goth band 'Love Like Blood'* which John then used on the series of the same name) and he created Harmony for the Meg, I think.


*Yes, yes, I thought it was a Killing Joke reference, too...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 September, 2018, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 14 September, 2018, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 September, 2018, 09:31:20 PM
10. I have no memory of the 'Jaguar' games console that gets a full page spread in 899

The only thing you need to know is there was a fighting game with a Scotchman who could  shoot fireballs from under his kilt[/url.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-SFpdOgCdM)

Wow... that's a ... thing...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 September, 2018, 10:52:52 PM
 We Scots can all shoot fireballs from under our kilts, but we don't like to show off.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 September, 2018, 09:05:17 PM
Prog 900

DREDD vs ROGUE TROOPER - first ever Prog long story. Wagner and Higgins for like 28 pages. Roxilla ... well okay let's skip that... all out ACTION...

... you'd think I'd have a lot to say about it wouldn't you. After all I've woffled this much nonsense so far... trouble is its all a bit bland. Feels cranked together and weak. Even Higgins art feels half hearted and washed out.

Such a shame, such a wasted opportunity.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 September, 2018, 09:31:13 PM
Well the mini-series in Progs 901 - 903 frankly weren't that good but these Progs are more significent for something else I'll get to.

Firstly the three issue shorts and what each of thrm lacked.

1. Durham Red - lacked a sense of any significence. The apparent 'depth' revealed by the dream sequence and trying to connect Red with her gothic loneliness felt trite.

2. Rogue Trooper - lacked pretty much everything. Not a fan of the character, its written by Millar - though arguibly far from his worse in the Prog and Chris Weston on his way, but not quite at his current greatness.

3. Bradley - lacked a point and good jokes

4. Nemesis - lacked a follow-up which was entirely necessary after this recap to bring us up to speed. I not a big fan of Clint Langley's art of this period either.

So while these shorter thrills was an interesting idea alas the execution was lacking...

... but the worse sin of these Prog is in Dredd as Wagner and Gibson turn Death into a pantomine entirely.

Still all this didn't last long and there's better things to come.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2018, 05:36:59 PM
So Prog 904 gives us a fresh line-up and there will be much to talk about in the coming posts.

We have another Dredd cross-over in Wilderlands, can it learn lessons on how to do this from Judgement Day?

Can Mills, Patrick, Uncle learn lessons from previous ABC Warriors in Hellbringer... though he is still hangin' with that Skinner ne'er-do-well down the bussie.

Can Button Man II keep up the exquisite form of Book I?

But for immediate attention what can we learn from Big Dave 'Wotta lotta Balls' and Robo-Hunter - Metrobolis. Well we learn why Big Dave isn't a 2000ad story that's what.

Wotta Lotta Balls is - I think - Morrison, Mills and Parkhouses last Big Dave story. It doesn't change from what's gone before. Its buff, hard and funny. What it lacks in guile it more than makes up for in git and punching humour. Its a fun comic strip, just not a good 2000ad one.

Over in Metrobolis Hogan and Hughes return Robo-Hunter to former glories, yes I really do like this story that much. Its great. Its got the humour, its got the action but its also got the guile and the witty charm. And its thos elast two that Big Dave lacks and why it feels so at odds with 2000ad. A good 2000ad story tackles its subjects with punch and violence, with grim energy and agression But alongside that they almost always have a bit more guile than Big Dave has to offer. They have charm and don't need to bash you in the face with their message and scream how witty they are.

We're seen other strips do the and they too fail, but I think none lack the subtly quite the way Big Dave does... I'm not saying 2000ad stories are subtle, often far from it on the surface, but when they have a point they don't just punch you in the face with it so relentlessly... well unless Unca Pat is in one of his narks!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2018, 06:28:16 PM
Tell you one thing we'll learning nothing from Red Razors except what a bloody waste of Nigel Dobbyn's superb art it is!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2018, 08:56:25 PM
Well aren't I the chatternbox today. I'm rattling through the Progs and have answered all my questions:

QuoteCan Mills, Patrick, Uncle learn lessons from previous ABC Warriors in Hellbringer... though he is still hangin' with that Skinner ne'er-do-well down the bussie.

Well kinda, kinda not. Its a bit hard to tell as the whole putting the band back together thing is so tired. Its nice in that it allows a focus on each Warrior in turn so we learn about them but this is like the second time at least its been done and it'll happen so much in the future its hard to remember whether it felt this much of a drag back in the day or not.

QuoteCan Button Man II keep up the exquisite form of Book I?

Of course it can. Bloomin' great and I may have more to say when I'm done with it... we'll see.

QuoteWe have another Dredd cross-over in Wilderlands, can it learn lessons on how to do this from Judgement Day?

No, no they haven't. I've gone purist route again and just read the Progs and frankly it turns this story into a jumbled mess. Which is a shame as under all that there's a good long form story struggling to break out and it nicely ties off a couple of years worth of plotline very effectively.

It does have some really awkward bit outside format problems and largely on the art side I feel bound to say. Carlos is of course great but this is at the height of his Dredd as Beefcake phase and he's just to big here for my tastes. He's also at the start of experimenting with computers and it makes much of the art look much worse than it is. Those red background and wordart sound effects are really jarring. The colouring sees overfussly to and I think that's a product of some computer tomfoolery. These problems I know I felt at the time so its not just a case of backwards reflection.

Still at the core its a good story and the best praise I can give it is that this diminished read has made me want to go back and read it properly with the Meg stories included again... oh and I completely forgot about the Mike Austin fill-in.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 September, 2018, 10:07:35 PM
Specials 1994

Can't remember if I'd mentioned this but since we have the Meg the Judge Dredd Specials and Yearbooks have become extentions of that comic. Which Judgement Day and the recently mentioned Wilderlands prove I'm far to lazy to drag into this re-read so I'm down to the 2000ad Sci-Fi Special Winter Special and Yearbooks (which will drop off soon).

Anyway this year the two specials are the usual mixed bag. Mind there's some common ground. Both have nice Brigand Doom with solid stories but wonderful art with Dave D'Antiquist's water colours really adding a fresh tone to his already superb work. They both have cute enjoyable text features by Alan McKenzie (if the talk of Alan being Roxilla is true). They also have effective one off, a Tale from Beyond Science in the Sci-fi a Terror Tale in the Horror themed Winter Special.

The Sci-Fi has a nice Robo-Hunter (Hogan and Jacobs) and some good art, but not much else aside.

The Winter Special, as is ever the case it would seemhas a little more on offer. A fun Dredd by Wagner and Burns - fantastic art, A decent Durham Red story and a harmless Tharg... so it tips i, but never is a standout.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 October, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Well at times like this we have to keep on keeping on. So...

2000ad Year book 1995

Last one and it would be nice to say it ends on a show stopper (yes I am watching that as I type) but alas... well okay there is some good. Firstly that cover just great. Then you open it and are welcomed by glorious Baike spread so perfectly designed for the gatefold format. The rest of the story is pretty good too.

The rest of the new content is just weak however, really weak. A dumb Tharg story, a shoulder shrug of a Terror Tale followed by a whine of a Bradley. The blandest Brigand Doom to date and the mind-blowingly bad Babe Race 2000... I mean that was special it was so horrible...

Then we get some nice padding reprint before a horrible Rogue Trooper to wrap up.

Such a shame such a lush format never really took off and then landed with a bump...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 October, 2018, 09:56:06 PM
Prog 918 and the end of 1994

So there we have it I pick up the next Prog in my pile 918 and Carlos is on Dredd. This might not be my favourite period of his. His Dredd is really built and he's experimenting with computer colouring and its not always working.... but still bloody hell its magnificent. The story is so clear, the art so hard. One thing that isn't often talked about that struck me reading this in a reflective mood is how fantastic his vehicle design is. Everything looks so function, real and solid, yet carries a sense of the outlandish and futuristic. He does it with the city but looking tonight it was the vehicles that struck me... don't know why, maybe I'm just looking at things I've taken for granted before with fresher eyes...

...the other thing that struck me was how indicative of this time that opening Dredd is when cast against McRoxvillal's Mix next to it. Everything that's classic and cool about 2000ad sat right next to everything that some folks in the Prog at the time thought was classic and cool and was actually a bit annoying and souless.

Now I accept that 'Mix' is low hangin' fruit and all that but it was a very interesting contrast. The Dredd story 'The Vote' is straightforward, smart and perfectly dressed. Its the Fronz. Stood next to 'Mix' it just oozes cool 'cos it doesn't feel like its trying, it knows what it is, it done by two masters and its happy with that and respect their audience too. Mix is pushing, pushing, pushing its telling you of bands I've never heard of and I'd imagine few 2000ad fans will have... but it thinks its better than you because of it. It thinks its looking down at me from on high... alas its worked so hard to get to that high ground its just looks a bit silly as kip around to the next thrill...

...anyway the end of 1994 is annoying for more practial reason, its back to that old habit of not ending stories at the end of the year. All over the place this year stories at all sorts of stages... I hanker for the order we have these days!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 03 October, 2018, 11:01:19 PM
I don't think I ever read the Mix articles, although there's always been an attempt at covering entertainment media in some form or another.

Action Video 82-83
Cinefax 82-83
Flix 87-91
Bitz 88-92
Mix
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 03 October, 2018, 11:18:02 PM
What I meant to post was:

I don't think I ever read the Mix articles, although there's always been an attempt at covering entertainment media in some form or another.  Most of that's in the Megazine now, but in the prog it was going for a while:

Ro-Jaws' Robo-Review 79-83
Towards 2000 81-82
Action Video 82-83
Cinefax 82-83
Sci-Fi Book Scan 82-83
Tharg's Mighty Micro Page 82-85
Flix 87-93
Bitz 88-93
Vidz 88-95
Mix 89-95

I think the chaos vs order is an interesting one.  On the one hand, I'd have loved it if The Marauders (Rogue Trooper, 282-289) had been done by a single artist.  My preference would have been Cam Kennedy because I liked his Nort hoppers the best.  But on the other hand chaos can produce some amazing creativity. 

Take early Warhammer models: Squig Hoppers (basically space hoppers being ridden by goblins) and Doom Divers (suicidal goblin hang gliders) are wonderfully creative.  Modern Warhammer has turned into World of Warcraft on the tabletop.  It seems a lot more corporate and a lot less creative.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 October, 2018, 09:36:14 PM
I think the key difference is where the older text pieces seemd to embrace their audience as time has gone on 'Mix' has increasingly self indulgent... unless 2000ad fans all turned into dance freaks in the mid ninties... I mean I did dance a lot in the middle 90s but not to anything 'Roxilla' was pimipin'
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 October, 2018, 09:36:36 PM
I predicted I would be able to just copy and paste my review of 1993 for 1994 as its all about ups and downs, highs and lows... and it is... but its no copy and paste job. To understand why let me take you... take you back to 1994.

See in 1994 I was at University of Sheffield, 1st year into 2nd. My comic reading had almost stopped entirely and only maybe Cerebus for a little longer and 2000ad still be delievered to my parents house. I'd still read it when I came home, but it was a quick ripe through before going here and there, taking this and that... and I've always kinda assumed that was why I don't really recall this period with any depth. My drifting from comics, the fact these Progs hadn't been lavished over the way Progs in the past had.

It was me, not them. I'd changed, we'd grown apart.

This seemed to hold as comics I'd previously enjoyed in the 700s and 800s proved to be a bit rubbish and the recovery started sooner than I'd thought...

... then 1994

See just like 1993 it is highs and lows, ups and down... but the man the lows are about as low as they get, they really are. The period at the beginning of the year in the 880s was, I think about as bad as they Prog has ever been... ever... I don't think it will get close to being this bad again, though time will tell. Thankfully this absolute low doesn't last too long, 10 progs maybe less.

The only thing that stops the recovery from stalling entirely is it is ups and downs and as such there are some real highs. The problem is they aren't as frequent and often quite as good. I mean sure we get Wagner back on Dredd which isn't to be sniffed at BUT it stumbles with Wilderlands... at least as I read it in the Prog alone.

We get the simply brilliant Button Man II, but good as it is, and it is good its not the revalation of the first which felt so fresh and different. John Smith steps back a little and while both the end of Deus Ex Machina and Revere are good there's not much else. All to often therefore we have to turn to the middle order to find our thrills. Brigand Doom, Armoured Gideon and new strips like Mambo while all having good outings shouldn't standout, against much of 1994 they do.

I'm not sure its the worst year in thrill power, even if it does have the very worst Progs, but it could be.

So we head into 1995 stumbling, but that's okay looks what's coming, optimism is building, a film is on the way and that can only be a good thing... right... I mean how can that go wrong...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 05 October, 2018, 10:42:06 PM
I've always considered Wilderlands a bit ropey.  The central premise was just difficult for me to accept: another Earth on the opposite side of the sun from us.  Also, it hasn't been mentioned since.  It's hardly canon.  I should re-read it, though: because I never have.

I think, a bit like you, I was so busy enjoying a social life back then that the sub-par parts of the comic didn't bother me much.  And it never got re-read, unlike the 80s, which got re-read until they almost disintegrated. 

(Well, I did re-read Phase IV, but that's special.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 06 October, 2018, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 05 October, 2018, 10:42:06 PMAlso, it hasn't been mentioned since.  It's hardly canon. 

The utterly daft Hestia* might not have been mentioned again,  but plenty of other elements from Wilderlands go on to be pretty important: Dunesharks, Judge Castillo, and McGruder's second fall from grace.


*Lets just assume it's a particularly large dwarf planet with a bizarre orbit,   and that it and Pluto were reclassified with the advent of a manned presence in the outer solar system.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 06 October, 2018, 02:17:49 PM
The real problem with Wilderlands is that it's a Megazine epic shoehorned into the Prog. It's the culmination of the Mechanismo storyline (all in the Meg), and the quite brilliant Prologue + Tenth Planet storylines that ran in the Meg just before the epic proper started.

Oh, and the fluffed reveal of who the killer is in the final episode didn't help either.

As someone who always read the Mix pages and never understood a word, I would say that I genuinely believed I was supposed to like this kind of music if I was a 2000AD fan. But the closest I ever got to House music was Snap! and 2Unlimited on Now 24.

Of course, A. McKenzie's tenure as Tharg is pretty much over come 1995, although he'll appear several more times in the credits box as writer. Wonder what kind of music John Tomlinson was into?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 06 October, 2018, 04:29:48 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 06 October, 2018, 02:17:49 PM
Wonder what kind of music John Tomlinson was into?

UB40


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 06 October, 2018, 05:02:17 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 06 October, 2018, 02:17:49 PM
The real problem with Wilderlands is that it's a Megazine epic shoehorned into the Prog. It's the culmination of the Mechanismo storyline (all in the Meg), and the quite brilliant Prologue + Tenth Planet storylines that ran in the Meg just before the epic proper started.

Hmm,  I tend to lump Tenth Planet into Wilderlands,  in the same way I throw The Connection in with Origins - one really only exists to set up the other.  As a result I notice that my list of "important things" from the latter are actually all in the former.

For the record,  and given the week that's in it, at the time I loved Ezquerra's compu-colouring in Wilderlands. I thought it was amazing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 October, 2018, 05:14:31 PM
Actually now you mention it AlexF its completely true that Wilderlands is eddentially a Meg story cramed into the Prog. Given that all the stories set up in the Prog never really took off and Wagner moved back across it kinda makes sense to bridge things but is jarring for the pure Prog reader as I am (in simulation) now. Damnit though this makes me want to go back and read all the Meg stories that lead up to this...

...thank Tharg I'm too lazy to actually do it. Someone hand me Prog 921 will ya...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 06 October, 2018, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 October, 2018, 05:02:17 PM
Hmm,  I tend to lump Tenth Planet into Wilderlands,  in the same way I throw The Connection in with Origins - one really only exists to set up the other. 

I re-read them both within the last month, and was struck by how marked a difference there is in quality between Tenth Planet and Wilderlands. The former is superb - very focused, with some brilliant Dredd / McGruder scenes and strong characterisation. Wilderlands, however, is hamstrung by the format (though it's all right - there's still a couple of good McGruder bits.)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 05:16:46 PM
The start of 1995 is dominated by endings, lets look at the first couple...

923 sees the The Corps reach its hard and bitter end... which in the context of the story resolves things exactly as you expect. The trouble is the context of the story isn't that interesting. Its more Millar than Ennis, folks being hard and Tarantino is such a mustache twirling villian and the conversations between commanders Keitel and Vess I think are meant to be shocking and chilling revalations that 'The Brass' think of their troops as just weapons and no more is beyond hamfisted. Ennis will do this sort of thing sooo much better in years to come, as it is he manages to makes a story about cool space Judges fighting Kleggs pretty dull and the ending exemplifies that.

924 Does have an end but has a very amusing bit in 'Output' half of the Nerve Centre as Pete Milligan gives an apology to Jurgen Klinsman of whom he says in a recent Bix Burton:

Quote...The Klinsman involves falling down dead as though hit by a bullet although nothing in fact has touched you.

shortly before signing Klinsmen signed for Milligan's team Spurs... I can empathise with the slippy hypocrisy of football fandom.

925 brings Soul Gun Assassin by Shaky Kane to a mind bending conclusion. Last time I read this I said

QuoteRead Soul Gun Assassin last night. While the art had progressed and got even better I felt the story was a bit stagnant (in relation to the first series) and didn't really develop things any further. Shame a fun read but a bit disappointing after the first series.

and the sadly missing Grant Goggins countered

QuoteThe bad guy smacks our hero in the head with the moon, and it's stagnant?

I *love* Soul Gun Warrior...

And of course Grant is completely right. I think what I was trying to emphasise was the fact that 'SG Assasin' covers similar ground as 'SG Warrior' its predecessor ... but when that ground is a man shooting himself through the head to enter psychic fisti-cuffs with various enemies, in this case an evil US President intent on using the tensions in Jerusulum to bring the world tumbling (gulp) the story is stretching quite enough barriers to keep us going. A glorious ending to this glorious series. Shame we don't get any more (I think... I keep saying that and then seeing covers when I'm sorting the Progs into order that prove me wrong!

ANYWAY join me next time as we skip 926 as it has no ending but hit the conclusions big time the next Prog...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 07 October, 2018, 05:39:34 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 05:16:46 PM
Ennis will do this sort of thing sooo much better in years to come, as it is he manages to makes a story about cool space Judges fighting Kleggs pretty dull and the ending exemplifies that.

Ennis complained that his scripts on this series were very heavily rewritten. Of course, the little scamp didn't even write the last episode himself at all - he 'outsourced' it to an uncredited Si Spencer!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 October, 2018, 05:39:34 PM
Ennis complained that his scripts on this series were very heavily rewritten. Of course, the little scamp didn't even write the last episode himself at all - he 'outsourced' it to an uncredited Si Spencer!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 06:22:32 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 October, 2018, 05:39:34 PM
Ennis complained that his scripts on this series were very heavily rewritten. Of course, the little scamp didn't even write the last episode himself at all - he 'outsourced' it to an uncredited Si Spencer!

Errr what I meant to say was I did not know that. It certainly did read unEnnis like as a story and by the final episode I'd have not noticed if it was Ennis or not.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 09:52:37 PM
So 927 clears the decks.

9 part Dredd story The Exterminator story ends and its been a blast... if you don't think about the timey whimey stuff too much. There's been some lovely character touches in a high octane time twister seeing Dredd hunt down parasite plague carriers in the near future 2001. Okay so we got teased a little with John Burns doing the art on the first couple of parts. But his sub Emilio Frejo isn't too shabby, though I don't remember seeing him before or since? He doesn't half go to town on the shoulder eagle mind!

SkiIIIzz well I said this a good few years back

QuoteAs much as I enjoyed it, I think mainly because of Baikie's great characters I do think it could've been stripped down. At least one plot thread could have been removed without affecting the over all thrust of the story and thus it could have been 4 or more episodes shorter.

And unlike my thoughts on Soul Gun Assassin at the same time, I stand by what I said back then. The end however and I am meant to be here talking about ends after all... is frankly a bit rubbish. The various plot threads were always going to struggle to be brought together and that shows here terribly. It kinda ends by just saying...arh then this happened that made that bit alright and these things folks just settled with and then the Titanic crushed those other folk (no really).... its not terribly satisfying.

Which frankly neither is the ending to Timehouse which is just as wishy washy as the rest of the series. Shame the fresh tone to this one should have been welcome, but its no Zippy Couriers that's for sure.

Finn - The Origin ends after being recycled from Crisis (I assume?) ... I wasn't interesting in Finn's journey from Paul in Crisis to 2000ad before reading this and was no more interested having read it... I'd also completely forgotten it existed! It ends as it began with Skinner convincing Little Patty that its cool as I look on and worry if Pat will ever be cool again.

And so with all that we're cleared the decks from a none too stella start to 1995 and I should be glad and excited for the fresh stories a comin' right...

Dredd: Crusade...More Fleisher Harlem Heroes (I thought we were done there!)... some Finn (see above)... at least Rogue Friday has Henry Flint art and you know you've not in for a good time when your thinking thank fuck for Armoured Gideon!

So all
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 07 October, 2018, 10:31:47 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2018, 09:52:37 PM
9 part Dredd story The Exterminator story ends and its been a blast...

Really? I think it's bloody awful, one of Wagner's weakest multi-part stories, quite literally a Terminator story with the serial numbers filed off (which is what it started life out as.) I like Frejo's art though.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 10 October, 2018, 08:03:59 PM
Chalk me up as an Exterminator fan. I get that it's a repurposed Terminator story - but actually, it's a stroke of genius having Dredd be, as it were, a killer robot from the future. The guy does a great Arnie impression.

The only downside is that as it's a Judge Dredd story, we know he can't be the bad guy. If Wagner had been able to spin things out a bit, it would've been really neat to have Dredd apparently being a scary assassin in 20th century America.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 10 October, 2018, 08:42:48 PM
Spin it out? Crikey, I felt it was excruciatingly paced at the time! I don't mind it so much when you read it all in one go, as in the Case Files - it'd work all right as a couple of issues of a US-format monthly title - but 9 weeks of it was too protracted.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 October, 2018, 08:52:20 PM
Yeah I really liked the way it played with the fact it was a Terminator story. Wagner of course knew what he was doing, but the necessary spin on it all and had such fun with his inspiration.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 October, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Prog 928

Shite - Armoured Gideon is by far the best thing in this Prog... and I suspect a number to come...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 October, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
Okay so Rogie Trooper disappears after a short time, as it starts to find the most convoluted, pointless and blandly dull way of smooshing our two Rogue's together. Why oh why... well actually since it backs off quickly, alas leaving its one good thing Henry Flint behind it, that means at least Armoured Gideon gets backed up by Brigand Doom. Both strips that really define the middle ground of thrills often elevated in the 90s to top thrills by the stuff that surrounds them.

Both come to an abrupt end in Progs 935 and 936

Now lets just be clear I like both thrills. Both are different but both have much to enjoy, not least gloriously consistent art throughout. Alas both get wrapped up* within a Prog of each other and neither really gets the end it deserves.

Armoured Gideon starts off really well the start of this story 'Trading Places' see Frank mistreated... well if you think being butchered with chainsaws is mistreating... might not be the right word... anyway, dead he's cast into the Gideon and all sorts of fantastic stuff happens... and then abruptly it stops. In Prog 935. Franks thinks he wakes up outside Gideon's body but isn't and so shuts at the Collector (the chappie who throw all those forgotten 2000ad folks together in our last outing) and lickety split he's back in Frank all repaired and THE END... such a shame as up to this point it'd all been great fun.

Brigand Doom hadn't been quite as good as before. This time facing off with financial vampires, in a bit of a tired attempt to be witty and clever. Agent Nine is used as bait in what reads like a lazy story were Alan MacKenzie is getting bored but needs to do something to wrap it all up. Who knows, but vampires are shot up easily enough and. THE END.

If I'm right and this is the end for both its a real shame. Both have been good, solid strips. Not brilliant at any point. But rarely bad or dull... rarely and deserving of a better send off. They've held the middle ground during the 90s when so much around then has been rubbish. Even at the end this is absolutely brought into sharp focus, surrounded as they are by Dredd Crusade - which gets worse on every reading, Finn a strip I just don't like and Harlem Heroes which I'm barely even reading by this point.

Still hats off (three pointed or otherwise) off to these stalwarts of the early to mid 90s. Rocks standing firm as all around them crumble, or raise to higher ground.

*I say wrapped but I'm learning a lot about how poor my recollection of some of the stuff doing the rounds at the moment is. I thought there was not more Fleisher Harlem Heroes, thought previously we'd done with Millar Robo-hunter. I have to be honest before now I'd forgotten I still had a Brigand Doom story still to come. All in all I guess I'm warning you that this might not be the end of either series... but let's treat it as though I'm right.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 October, 2018, 09:46:27 PM
Some quick thoughts on early(ish) 1995 which I've not got to yet:

1. Roxilla is spreading his / her wings into movie reviews. It's all still very specific and self important.

2. Loving the little Shakey Kane - Beyond Belief panels... in some progs they're the best thing in there.

3. Computer generated Thargs are my least favourite Thargs

4. The cover the Prog 930 is one of my least favourite

5. But its possibly not as bad as the one to Prog 931 which tried to cash in on the whole US gold enhance cover shenanigans

6. Early computer designed Nerve Centre pages really haven't aged well have they...

7. Arh you gotta love the Tharg's first e-mail address tharg@richb.demon.co.uk  ... I wonder who set that up...

8. How long does a hook take to fall in Crusade? The time it take to chat for 66(ish) words... all of them badly written... still packs a punch mind.

9. I loved the Alphabet Man set up and the art is stunning... I worry that its leads to nowhere fast.

10. Oh yeah the cover to Prog 938 is another I really don't like... we're not in a good spell of covers here are we.

11. Paul Marshal seems to be temporally very influenced by Colin MacNeil in 'Escape from Kurt Russell'... I don't think it lasts

12. I'd also forgotten how many superficial similarities there are between that story and the 2012 film... even though others have mentioned it before.

13. Mark Grudgefather as another strip I'd forgotten comes back.

14. I'm sorry but I much prefer Nigel Dobbyn to Mark Harrison on Strontium Dog

15. Oh Jonny Kiss and The Marshall's are back... alas I do remember that one...

16. We're 5 months into the new year and still we're to have a Prog with a positive balance ... I worry about my end of year review and all this talk of recovery...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 16 October, 2018, 09:54:15 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 October, 2018, 09:46:27 PM
Paul Marshal seems to be temporally very influenced by Colin MacNeil in 'Escape from Kurt Russell'... I don't think it lasts

That story's a last gasp for the ultra-detailed Firekind / Tyranny Rex era of Marshall - after that, his art becomes massively stripped-down in terms of detail and is frequently the victim of horrible colouring. I'm much less of a fan of that period. It takes him quite a while to get back to his more line-intensive style.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 19 October, 2018, 03:25:23 PM
QuoteBoth have been good, solid strips. Not brilliant at any point. But rarely bad or dull... rarely and deserving of a better send off. They've held the middle ground during the 90s when so much around then has been rubbish. Even at the end this is absolutely brought into sharp focus, surrounded as they are by Dredd Crusade - which gets worse on every reading, Finn a strip I just don't like and Harlem Heroes which I'm barely even reading by this point.

Still hats off (three pointed or otherwise) off to these stalwarts of the early to mid 90s. Rocks standing firm as all around them crumble, or raise to higher ground.

This same curse affected US comic of a similar vintage, described in some circles as being '90s good' - which is pointedly not the same as just plain 'good'...

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-dictionary-90s-good/ (https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-dictionary-90s-good/)

For what it's worth, my memory as a solid 2000AD reader and an occasional Marvel comics reader in 1995, 2000AD was ALWAYS better than the competition, making even the bad strips look good in comparison!

But I absolutely agree that both Armoured Gideon and Brigand Doom needed a more definitive send-off. I feel like Brigand Doom was building up to a reveal of Investigator 9 either becoming the next Brigand, or having been him all along, or perhaps having dreamed up the whole thing, in a kind of parallel to American Psycho.

And you really need to read Harlem Heroes: Cyborg Death Trip as a deliberate 'so bad it's ridiculous' comic. Problem is, when a film does that it can be OK if you're watching it in a group and laughing together - kinda tricky to read a comic in a group setting. See also, and rather soon, Urban Strike!.
I guess we'll have to wait for Space Spinner to give us the group-read experience...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 October, 2018, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 19 October, 2018, 03:25:23 PM
... See also, and rather soon, Urban Strike!.


I remember thinking this was brilliantly ironic reading it back in the day - its one of the few I remember reading then - much to do with great Mike Austin art I suspect (or misremember).

Ha! 90s good is a great term, never heard that before.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 October, 2018, 09:26:33 PM
Speaking of the Middle ground the departure of Armoured Gideon and Brigand Doom left space for Mambo and Strontium Dogs to fill that space and in Prog 947 both finish.

Its funny and indicative of the problems in the first half of 1995 that these are my favourite thrills in the run they are in. I've always had a real soft spot for the Ennis into Peter Hogan run on Strontium Dogs and while it is a little drifty and meandering I still think it holds up really pretty well. Its not the old Johnny Alpha story, but that's a good thing. It needed to be different to work. And it does. I mean sure its not a patch on Strontium Dog (singular) but at least it has the courage to go in its own direction and its chock full of fun characters just like the original. The more thrilling soap opera vibe it has really works for me... alas it also means it never really reaches its destination.

Mambo is far more compact and tight. Its fun, exciting with just the right amount of intrigue and difference to work. Its far from brilliant, but damn surrounded by the dumb maschismo of Midnight Kiss, the dumb social commentry of the seemingly endless  Finn (Jez just how long does this go on for!) and the just plain dumb Rogue Trooper mash-up if seems brilliant.

So we're over half way through 1995 and we're still struggling and we get a couple of Prog filled with some fun filler. A shaky Kane Future Shock that looks just astonishing and some daft fun, which also looks great in Tracer and then we hit a spell of much needed change as Prog 950 arrives... much needed but is that need fulfilled by the change.... well the movie os here so lets not get our hopes up hey...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 October, 2018, 07:46:43 AM
Prog 950 (plus)

So we hit a time of change as the Judge Dredd movie comes out and 2000ad gets the worse logo I think its ever had. A harsh, sharp, yet fussy block at the top of the page. Stuck there like some sort of over designed banner in a pro-Brexit march.

We get 8 extra pages, but nothing of consequence is added and I'm not quite sure where they go. Pictures from the Dredd movie I assume. Though to be fair by next Prog we do get an extra thrill, or at least double Dredd.

The strip content is actually on the up as well if I'm are honest, but after the first half of the year that's no metric to get excited about, its still not great but there are some real positives. We have Wagner on Dredd, by 952 we're only had one really good one in 'Megalot' but that will sort itself soon as I recall. Slaine is a fine replacement for Finn and hasn't yet started stirring down the barrel of plunging down hill... yet... Rogue Trooper grinds on alas and Urban Strike is ... well just plain curious....

I actually enjoy these early Vector 13s too, though they still make clear that the limitations of the format, which will be exposed soon I'm quite sure. At this point however they feel fun and interesting, after all there's only been 2.

Return of Rico by Pat Mill and Paul Johnson is so unnecessary. I mean sure if you'd not read the original its great and Uncle Pat does get a few neat little bits of commentry in there quite well, but beyond that it adds maybe 12 pages to the old classic, yet very little substance. Well aside from the confusion in the timeline of setting it after Cursed Earth for... reasons of adding dinosaurs to it I guess!?!

You can feel the Prog straining under the weight of its own expectations. The paper feels better, there's more of it, everything has a design makeover, though typically of this time of early PCs its all way to busy and fussy. The trouble is the comic doesn't feel significently better. It is better, but the last 6 months have been awful. Tharg has seen the Dredd movie by now, surely he knows he has to do more than this to reap any reward?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 October, 2018, 09:26:07 PM
We're well into September and still the Prog isn't really firing an that's with two Wagner Dredd's per issue. Something just isn't right in the House of Tharg. Its not helped by the line-up feeling like its in constant flux. Since Prog 950 we're had:

Urban Strike: An absolute oddity. Its not as funny as it things it is. I think it really wants to be rye and self aware and when I was like 20 odd I think I got tricked into that too. Its not its just irritating. And oh boy those constant oh so knowing Tharg notes get grating very quickly. It sits really uncomfortably in the Prog.

Slaine - Name of the Sword:
is so murky. Greg Staples, who is some time off becoming Greg Staples produces art which is dank and almost impenetrable. I bet the original art sings but on the page its gloomy. The plot isn't much better. Pat Mills is playing with some nice ideas but he's not really pulling it together... mind its far from bad and at least he's stopped hangin' with that bad lad Skinner.

Rogue Trooper: Rogue Pooper more like*

Vector 13: The limitations are really showing already. Lots of stories have potential, some don't, but the artifice created by the delivery by The Men in Black or whatever they are called just chokes engagement and kills stories dead and gets very repetitive very quickly... we're got literally years of this stuff too as I recall... sigh...

One shots of both Janus and Stontium Dogs: Neither of which have time and space to really develop anything and are there just to tease it feels.

Journal of Luke Kirby - Old Straight Track: Has some things to say but is a real slow burner and doesn't really have enough to say to justify that. Still stunning art by Steve Parkhouse and this series has earnt itself some rope.

Manic 5 - Manic 6 : Lacks some of the fun of the first and just feels like more Millar excess.

All this and such a mixed bag of Dredd. For every Bad Frendz there a Jigsaw (sorry I just think the Chris Foss stuff is horrible, stilted and has little life) for The Decision there's Awaking of Angels... its not Wagner at his best... at least not consistently. Still things are on the up and next Prog (959) we will have Wagner at his very best so at least after almost 9 months we might get a Prog that really hits its stride...

*This is the type of humour we'd find in Urban Strike, except it'd have a Tharg note telling us this really means shite but we're not allowed to swear and a semi clad nun cos its so cool and knowing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Aaron A Aardvark on 23 October, 2018, 07:47:36 AM
950 must have been when I returned from my Long Walk
- because of the Dredd movie believe it or not -
and I must have liked something coz I'm still back 23 years later but I'm drokked if I can remember what it was.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 October, 2018, 09:19:10 PM
Dredd is getting better and better so maybe ... if you ignore Hammerstein.

I also forgot the art mix-up in Prog 960 when Durham Red starts off with a random page of that same strip. Its actually quite amusing if you are feeling a bit childish, which I often am.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 25 October, 2018, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 October, 2018, 09:26:07 PM
Slaine - Name of the Sword:[/b] is so murky. Greg Staples, who is some time off becoming Greg Staples produces art which is dank and almost impenetrable. I bet the original art sings but on the page its gloomy.

I've always enjoyed The Stapler, even in his very early days.
I thought that Name of the Sword had phenomenal artwork- his career best at the time.

I have 3 pages of pencils from that story, must post them on the original art thread sometime, really exceptional stuff.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 24 October, 2018, 09:19:10 PM
I also forgot the art mix-up in Prog 960 when Durham Red starts off with a random page of that same strip. Its actually quite amusing if you are feeling a bit childish, which I often am.

Yes, I remember that howler.
Some may prefer Mark Harrison's modern work on Grey Area, but for me this was his best era (pre- Cantos Durham Red).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 October, 2018, 09:38:32 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 25 October, 2018, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 October, 2018, 09:26:07 PM
Slaine - Name of the Sword:[/b] is so murky. Greg Staples, who is some time off becoming Greg Staples produces art which is dank and almost impenetrable. I bet the original art sings but on the page its gloomy.

I've always enjoyed The Stapler, even in his very early days.
I thought that Name of the Sword had phenomenal artwork- his career best at the time.


Its wasn't really the artwork, rather the reproduction and this seems to affect Kev Walkers work on Hellbringer II.

Anyway Prog 965 and 966 so many thrills, so little content. I Dredd that I think is meant to be fun as the Devil locked up in an Annual a few years ago mixes it up with the recently resurrected Angel Gang. Yike. Rogue Trooper is still struggling, Vector 13 is already beginning to really grate. Supersurf 13 has a few problems and some of John Higgins weakest art with some very murky and fuzzy finishing from TCS. PARAsites I'm just nit buying into and ABC Warriors is okay but far from it best and still boast too many Skinnerisms to work really well.

Yeah I thought things were getting better but in reality they're just nothing really great and so much sub-parr nonsense. We're only got a few Progs left this year and a few Dredd's aside I can't think of anything that's really been fantastic!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 November, 2018, 09:26:04 AM
Specials 1995

And we head full force to the end of 1995 and I rather think I'll have a lot to say about this year.

One thing worth noting now is we're also down to just the specials, which I don't think last themselves beyond next year. Frankly looking at both the Sci-Fi and Winter Specials this year we're not going to miss them as I frankly don't miss having to wade through the Annuals and latterly Yearbooks to find the odd diamond in pages of rough.

By this stage they just feel like page after page of filler, reprint and try out. Not that its a bad thing to have a place for try out, just it can be a bit of a slog to get through... mind that said one of the try outs in this year's bunch has a very special place in my heart. Tucked into Alternity - the 1995 Winter Special we have another strip that feels very influenced by a movie, in this case the mob enforcers in Pulp Fiction. Its by a couple of creators who to this point haven't really pushed themselves to the top of the heap. Dan Abnett largely responsible for a few sub-par Dredd's and a load of the restricted and dull Vector 13s. David Millgate has done stuff here and there.

The story itself is a victim of the style of the time, trying to be hard and knowing, tough and smart without any of the real wit and charm needed to carry that off. It wears its influences on its sleeves and frankly if we were never to see it again we'd barely remember this stroy, anymore than any of the other medicure content that makes up the over priced content of the comic.

As it is of course for reasons of deadline problems elsewhere this weak try out will get rolled out again in the Prog in 1996, it still won't be that good, but it will hit a cord with some readers and get the chance to develop beyond its limited origin. Sinister Dexter doesn't half have a grubby and messy birth. But then don't we all and look how gloriously we all turned out...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 03 November, 2018, 01:25:36 PM
I don't remember the other stuff David Millgate did for Tharg. According to Barney, he did a small number of Dredds.

As to that writer, whatever happened to him?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 November, 2018, 08:34:54 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 03 November, 2018, 01:25:36 PM
I don't remember the other stuff David Millgate did for Tharg. According to Barney, he did a small number of Dredds.

As to that writer, whatever happened to him?

Yeah shame that Abnett chap never came to anything hey. Reckon if he'd kept going he'd have turned into Tharg's greatest weapon in the war against thrillsucker by now!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 November, 2018, 09:18:08 PM
1995

So the recovery was a bit of misdirection then and 1994 gave us a clearer direction of travel than I dared to remember it would seem. See I thought 1990 and 1991 where the lows 1992 - 1997 the tricky and slow recovery... alas the narrative hasn't been that straight forward has it... mind that's entirely fitting as this is 2000ad we're talking about after all and 2000ad knows how to do atypical narratives now doesn't it.

The real story has gone 1990-1 pretty damned low, 1992 -3 the slow and tricky false dawn of recovery 1994, nervous confusion as the recovery stalls and 1995... well 1995 is the worst year to date I think... that might be a gut reaction that will change in time, but right now I stand firm with that call (I've more worried for 1996 than I was before mind - but have reason to hope as we'll get to...).

See the biggest problem with 1995 is there simply aren't any absolute highs... well there's one and that might be a little harsh on Soul Gun Warrior. The one real bright spark is Wagner on Dredd, but even then its not quite as consistly brilliant as it might be, partly because he's not there consistantly. That said in 'The Cal Files' he and John Burns produce one of my all time favourite 2000ad stories. Just superb.

The thing is its in absolute isolation and nothing, nothing steps up to help with the heavy lifting. There's some solid middle ground stories and some strips end with mixed results. The very last Journal of Luke Kirby is fantastic - all 8 pages of it in the final prog of the year, alas after the last long form story (see previous excuses about a crap memory if I'm wrong on that one)  being probably the weakest of the series to date.

There's no Button Man, no John Smith nothing like that and yet the lows are still there and many fold, as in any bad year, I've whinged about those enough already so there's no need to harp on.

The other big problem we have is Pat Mills is still having a real wobble and his output just isn't doing it for me with a horrible consistancy in 1995. ABC Warriors is still all crazy and anarchic (it wishes) in such a low brow way. Slaine is not bad but starting into a dive I don't think it recovers from until ... well Simon Davis! And Finn I've never enjoyed.

On top of all this Vector 13 is really killing ones offs as well with its dry, characterless delivery and limited structural format. Editorial won't pick up on this for years and infact is going to make matters worse soon as horribly computer generated androgynous Tharg makes the idea of switching him out seem like not to bad an idea after all.

So where do I get hope from. Well for a start Wagner will, I believe be more consistently present of Dredd, certainly the first half as The Pit, starting too late in 1995 to do much good, will be with us for the first 6 months. Also David Bishop is now on board and while he will make many mistakes, often in the early part of his time as Tharg, but he will start to at least think about turning the good ship 2000ad around and in 1996 introduce one of the cornerstones of doing so, even if that strip won't quite be good during 1996, still it will be fun watching it grow.

So yeah 1995 was just so low key and at time really dull and I'm not confident that 1996 will be too much better, but at least this time I'm more confident that the recovery will maintain a consistent upward trajectory... won't it...

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 04 November, 2018, 08:02:14 PM
Yeah I think you're right to call out 1995 for lacking any real high-points; even Wagner on Dredd is only ever 'good as usual' rather than 'outstanding'.

I like Vector 13 quite a bit more than you, and at the time felt it brought the one-off back up to the high standard of the early Milligan/Smith/Morrison Future Shocks - but that's still only 'fun' rather than must-read.

I also have a lot more tolerance for Finn, but the art could've been a bit better, especially after books 1 and 2 which had been pretty ace artwise. But it's still not a Button Man or Firekind-level high.

1996 I suspect has lower lows to come, but also one or two major highs (including, of course, 6 months of the Pit!), so counts as an upswing from 1995 which indeed continues with every year after for quite a few year to come (reaching a peak in around 2008?).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 06 November, 2018, 04:40:49 AM
Things that kept me reading in 1995 (in order of importance):

1. Force of habit
2. Loyalty to the brand
3. Armoured Gideon
4. Luke Kirby
5. Slaine

(Actually, I've never considered giving up 2000AD.  Even when some of it's a bit meh, it's still tons more entertaining than "Mr. Twisty!  Galaxatron has eaten the moon and is shitting the leftovers onto Earth!  We're doomed!"  "Don't panic!  Galaxatron is a physical impossibility - how could a giant man float through space with nothing to propel him?  And where is the shop that makes his outrageous headgear?"  "Wait - you mean - this isn't really happening?"  "That's right, Susan!  You're completely delusional!  In fact, there is no Mr. Twisty!  I'm just one of those stretchy fruit sweets you bought in a vain effort to be healthy while you eat lumps of sugar.  Susan?  Why are you weeping?")

So, you know.  Even Urban Strike is better than that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 November, 2018, 10:01:15 PM
Funt Solo I think you underestimate now how great Mr Twisty and Susan vs. Galaxatron sounds. I'd buy that in a second AND especially if it turned out to be a comic strip based on a helicopter computer game... which would make as much sense as Urban Strike actually did!

Genius sir.

Anyway the first thing I want to talk about in very early 1996 is PARAsites I've enbolden it just so I remember I've typ...

...sorry where was I this seemed to be some sort of sequel to Wirehe...

...so I was saying something was I ... but nothing nothing about it is memo...

...hold on was I talking about something...

Anyway I forgot to mention in 1992 that there was no way that Wireheads was ever coming back and thank God it never did hey...

Hold on what's that next to new Flesh its PARA...

...so did you say something...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 09 November, 2018, 10:07:38 AM
Yup, it's a proper contender for worst thrill ever, that one.
-and I kind of like Wireheads.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 November, 2018, 09:10:02 PM
Prog 979

So 1996 starts off with a number of short(ish) stories hiding behind a long form Dredd - which is magnificent and put all behind it in the shade.

None of them are bad... well most of them aren't band... but again they provide definition of the middle order elevated by not much else around them ... aforementioned Dredd aside.

I've always has a real soft spot for Flesh - Chronocide its not especially great I just really enjoy it for all its action movie cliche. If nothing else Gary Erskine use of shadows is just superb. I do wonder how angry Uncle Pat got about it as his name suddenly pops up in the margines after the first few parts.

Speaking of movie action cliche that's the very thing that Kid Cyborg works so hard to avoid. I'm not sure I enjoy it but by heck it earns points for trying to be something different. Its like its trying to be along form version of Shaky's Beyond Belief. The difference is Shaky Kane's single panels are effortless delights, Kid Cyborg is straining to be leftfield and that's why it feels forced rather than carefree.

Darkness Visible is a really fun little five parter (don't get many of them). Its refreshing in its tone, dark and close. Simple and chilling. Nice change of pace and doesn't over stay its welcome.

Best thing to say about Venus Blue Genes is it really emphasizes how much Dan Abnett and Simon Coleby have both come on since 1996.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 09 November, 2018, 09:35:21 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 November, 2018, 09:10:02 PM
If nothing else Gary Erskine use of shadows is just superb. I do wonder how angry Uncle Pat got about it as his name suddenly pops up in the margines after the first few parts.
How do you mean? (could be me being thick of course)

Enjoying the stroll through the Dark Times. Interested how the next year or so turned out, you're just beyond the point I stopped even buying (and years after reading)...

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 November, 2018, 09:51:23 PM
He does some really nice effects with shadows during the story. So for example showing the dabbled shadowing of folks standing under leafy trees in bright sunshine. Some really nice, very labour intensive lighting effects like that - all done with ink I should note not that there new fangled computer colours that... eerr graces... so many strips of this time.

If its the Uncle Pat thing its margins of course, don't know where that 'e' comes from. But about 4 parts into the story in the gutter we get 'Flesh created by Pat Mills' stuck as a clear after thought into the margin (no 'e'). I'm guessing he got upset about the strip being resurrected and kicked off at David Bishop? I'm guessing there of course.

Yeah I'd all but stopped reading at this point, back in the day, and soon at the point where I'd stopped even getting the Prog. I have read them all since then, but I'm not as familar with the stuff I'm covering now.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 November, 2018, 10:38:16 PM
This is a weird era for me: I was wandering around Oz for a year and got back to a pile of progs.  So, it wasn't a week-in, week-out kind of thing. 

I remember liking Chronocide & Darkness Visible quite a bit.  I don't remember Venus on the Frag Shell: so much of that era of Rogue (or Friday, or Venus) seems like a lot of military jargon, quite cool in a way but lacking any heart.

The Pit was a great idea.  Kid Cyborg I disliked: not my cup of tea in either art style or story.

But we're heading for the recovery aren't we?  Sin Dex? 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 November, 2018, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 November, 2018, 10:38:16 PM
But we're heading for the recovery aren't we?  Sin Dex?

Yeah but that strip will take some time to develop to the classic it is. The recovery will be a very bumpy and uneven thing to as I recall.

We'll see.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 November, 2018, 09:46:00 PM
So Prog 981 comes along and something a little bit special is with us... well something special that isn't The Pit which I really must get around to typing about soon.

So its clearly not Venus Bluegenes even if its got Henry Flint's lovely early art. Its clearly Janus PSI with its too shiny logo. I can't be sure if it Cannon Fodder yet but it might be by the end - at least one board member I remember fondly thought it was.

It is however of course the first appearance of Sinister Dexter in the Prog itself and the starts a long and deep affection... well not in real time I accept... but in Prog time. A deep affection.

Of course its not very good yet... but then neither was most early Dredd so ya know that grow big and strong enough to have a thrill like The Pit, so we give these thing time...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 15 November, 2018, 01:42:41 PM
I recently re-read Canon Fodder in a floppy.

Have to say I wasn't a fan back in the day. And you know what...I'm still not. Of the writing or the art. Chris Weston is one of the most improved artists on Tharg's books (sorry I have said that before...) and this is before that.

Oh and engaging nit pick mode - sorry -

it's Canon Fodder not Cannon Fodder...Canon as in a religious minister, not a big gun and yes I know its a play on words, but that is how it is spelt.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 15 November, 2018, 03:20:14 PM
You can lead a librarian to where the dictionary is shelved (019), but you can't make him read it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 November, 2018, 09:38:38 PM
Even more embarrassing as my father in-law is indeed a canon (one n)

Anyway to try to win back some points dictionaries can indeed be at 019... kinda... its actually dictionary catelogies. Actual dictionary dictionaries are normally at 403 OR 420 for English dictionaries and through the 400s for dictionaries of different languages.

BUT you can also construct different numbers for dictionaries based on the subject of that dictionary by adding 03 at the end. So for example a Business Dictionary is 658.03, or a Science dictionary os 503 (science being 500 you can drop the 00 after the 5 as 503 isn't used for anything else)...

... I hope I've got that right its been a long time since I did any classifying!

ANYWAY to matters less dull... well maybe but I'm getting down to some detail, which is odd for me.

Anyway after Sinister Dexter starts in 981 in 984 we get another first which I'm very fond of. It marks what I think is Alex Ronald's work in the Prog. I'm a big fan of his work, I love his current covers, but I'm an especial fan of his pen and ink work. In 984 its not quite there yet and its interesting after having two superb artists in Ezquerra and MacNeil The Pit does seem to get used for less experienced artists. Seems weird for such a superb story to be used for try out... well I'm sure it wasn't, but it does feel like that a bit...

...ANYWAY... what particularly struck me was Alan Craddock's colours. Now they come in for a LOT of stick and to be honest looking back you can see why BUT so many others struggled to get to grips with the new computer colouring and Craddock does seem to get the worst of this. Junior Tomlin (is that John Tomlinson?) in the same Prog does some pretty grim colouring on Sinister Dexter. John Higgin's used a colouring team on 'Supersurf 12' that was just horrendous. And lets be honest even an absolute master like the late great Carlos Ezquerra struggled at time with the new medium.

So anyway what I particularly noticed is what Alan Craddock and all those who tried to master this then new technology, don't get credit for and that's being bold enough to experiment and stretch things and that particularly stood out to me here as one. A good few panels in the Dredd strip you can see him trying different things. The tone of the opening silent Dredd panel still too shiney but somehow more subtle and muted. Dulled tones on some of the street panels that really work to highlight the fire used by the homeless. There's a panel were Patel is speaking to his dad and it looks really nice, again more muted and with softer tones. Next to it (across the fold) there's an almost Higginsesque panel of a hoverporter exploding... etc etc.

Now of course having so much experimentation in one story doesn't led to a consistent tone and is itself a problem BUT it did serve to remind me what prioneers these folks were ... even with our 2018 eyes alot of what they did, didn't work.

Oh and Janus Psi Division finished this Prog... turns out I had more I wanted to say about Dewey Decimal and Alan Craddock than I did about that... mind Paul Johnson's colours are nice.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 November, 2018, 10:22:00 PM
R.A.M. Raiders

I quite like RAM Raiders. I mean okay lets be honest from the off its not close to a classic, but I do enjoy it. Firstly I'm a sucker for Calum Alexander Watt's work, there's something so engaging and easy on the eye about it. When you compare it to the hyper-realised sub-Bisley stuff that's been polluting early Sinister Dexter. Its clean, calm colours are a real palette cleanser.

Alan McKenzie's story is like so much of his work is firmly in the middle ground, its pretty good but has significent problems. His muscle bound computer engineer, sent to try to 'debug' a building's computer system is square in the dickish led that so blighted the early 90s, his female partner at first played poorly does pull around by the end. The scenario however is refreshing and pacing spot on.

So yeah I feel a bit apologetic but I like it.

Much more than the overwrought Canon Fodder that overlaps with it that's for sure.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 November, 2018, 09:29:25 PM
A few years ago I did a re-read of Sinister Dexter and in doing so I wrote up some thoughts I posted on 'Everything comes back to 2000ad' on finishing the first run of the series I popped across to check out if my thoughts remained the same or whether I had anything else to say and if the 7 years inbetween had changed by view... they haven't. My thoughts are therefore here.

https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/sinister-dexter-drawing-too-early/ (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/sinister-dexter-drawing-too-early/)

For anyone with more sense than to read all that in summary.

It all looks a bit horrible (a few exceptions aside) and is while laying foundations for this classic series is far from fully developed and feels a little souless... or very much of its time to put it another way!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 November, 2018, 09:28:36 PM
Prog 999

Well here we are tonight we're going to party like it Prog 999... which back in the day seemed an unimaginable amount. Now less than half way and we have a Prog 1999 which would make that sentence much better anyway!

We get two endings I'd like to talk about. I should also mention that Finn finished in this Prog as well (and I think that's it for the series?) but have to be honest by now I'm barely reading it, so haven't got much to say.

The two ending I'd like to mention are therefore The Pit and Strontium Dogs. The Pit is just glorious, Dredd soap opera. By apparently reducing scale and giving us a closer, tighter view on a smaller world we actually get raised stakes. We can hardly begin to imagine what 400,000,000 deaths means. Its too big, beyond imagination even. Show us a team of Judges running a guerilla war, or a hand picked crack squad on a suicide mission and the impact of Apocalypse War is felt all the more.

The Pit does this even better. We get closer and tighter to characters. By throwing Dredd into a situation he doesn't belong in, by giving him a true ensemble cast of well defined character, each with a tale to tell, an arc to go through a world is built and we are completely immersed. Then we get to the ending... and what's superb is its so Dredd. So big, so brash and bold. Its not exactly something we haven't seen before, but it works. Having been sunk into the world, so superbly crafted by John Wagner we get the explosive finale to throw us back into Dredd and what makes his world work. Of course having been sunk in so deep it has all the more impact.

The Pit is everything its said to be. Maybe not my all time favourite Dredd epic, but its sure as heck up there.

Then contrast that with Strontium Dogs. Over a much longer time we have also had an ensemble cast created. We're had characters thrown in different directions and situations. We also have lots of interconnecting character arcs. And as I've said I've enjoyed it, it'd been fun and once you get past the fact that its not Strontium Dog and is meant to be something different its really fun.

Now I'm not saying for a moment that the world is crafted as deftly and engagingly as the one Wagner creates in Sector 301, but its still fun and sure things could have been said to have been allowed to drift, but it deserved a better send off than it got. Now the reasons for this are well known to those who have read their 2000ad history and David Bishop has said himself he could have handled the specifics a lot better. The one thing that gets over looked is to make matters worse (and I say this as a Bishop booster - always remember he left the Prog in a much better place than he found it, at what was a very challenging time by all accounts) he bloody wrecked the story that had been developed.

I've no idea what ideas he'd kept of Peter Hogan's and which he added himself (or whomever he gave the story over to) but I'm reasonably positive it would have been given more space and time to end properly. Characters and situations slowly drip feed into life are snatched away so quickly and clumsily. Now you'd imagine if you weren't happy with what was being done and how long it was all taking your best bet was to cut your loses and wrap it up toot sweet. If however you have been enjoying it you feel robbed of what might have been.

So it goes.

Kinda get the impression that Trevor Hairsine wasn't impressed either. Now if this was with the way things were to start with, or how things were wrapped up I can't say. I prefer to think the latter.

Anyway lets move on from both the good and the bad as we got a big celebration coming up next time... I think I'll give myself a quick break and re-read Si Spurrier's sublime X-Men Legacy before cracking on with the 2nd millenium AD. See ya soon.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 December, 2018, 10:16:41 PM
Prog 1000

Gosh do you remember the days when reaching Prog 1000 seemed like an unimaginable achievement! While a clear and important milestone, it also very much represents the times in which it was produced... for both good and alas mostly ill.

Arguably the biggest sign of that is after the Dredd movie bombed and even after a classic like The Pit it feels as if Tharg is a little embarrased by ol' Joe and he's bumped from the covered and relegated to the back of the Prog. As still shining from Horned God, all be it now a glow that's had to last 6 years Slaine is propelled front and centre. Alas the waning of that once bright light is felt in this 'cute' stand alone story. Which is kinda a shame given what follows is a pretty good story in 'Treasures of Britain' as I recall.

Dredd himself, even with John Wagner settles for last strip and also presenting the final condemnation of Judge Death as pantomine dame - I mean they're not even pretending by the end of this story BUT taking the episode in 1000 in and of itself its a great introduction to so much of Dredd and the full scope of his world. You can push it push it to the back but you don't put Wagner in the corner.

Elsewhere we get to the real problems with this Prog... well the content at least. We get a Durham Red story that we know folks are all but done with and what could be the great new thrill in Outlaw but one which seems rather than summarising the anarchic, thrill-powered energy of the previous 999 Progs it settles for being the zenith of the hackneyed bland uder hard, souless cliched hardman of the last few years. Its just such a weak thrill and sad opener.

The art throughout is meant to be a painted wonder. Most of it is style of substance.

Ultimately Prog 1000 isn't a great product and not worthy of what's gone before. Its a real shame, but worst of all it just feels so ordinary. It doesn't feel like a celebration. The free suppliment is okay but really but worth the effort? Well actually it is as  what it does give us is hope of whats to come. Those previews remind us that while Prog 1000 reminds us of some lows, its is the gateway to the time of recovery and we can see that coming here.

Prog 2000ad may be 3 1/2 years away, but if you think of the distance Tharg has to travel from here to there, you can fully understand why that journey will take so long. But then after all 2000ad has aways been about the future, so its almost fitting that the best thing about Prog 1000 is the hints of what's to come.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 December, 2018, 09:28:42 PM
Some quick thoughts on the very early 1000s.

1. Why did we get that free trading card on 1001? It seemed to have no context what so ever and has left a worrying stain on the inside cover!

2. Love Dermot Power's take on Slaine. I think he's often over looked when the great Slaine artists are rolled out.

3. Similarly John Burns art  really elevates Black Light and I think goes a long way to explaining why I enjoy it so much more than this seemingly bland hard boiled sterotype of the 90s deserves.

4. Simon Davis does paint himself as Outlaw - right?

5. I also really like Marc Wigmore's hyper stylised work on that strip... alas all the great work can't elevate this clunker.

6. The Independence Day cover to  Prog 1004 may well be the latest in a long line of 2000ad movies tie in covers but after the Dredd movie for some reason I'd have thought it best left!

7. Forgot to mention how horrible the wordart on the Black Light logo is! Bet I loved it and thought it was super cool back in the day!

8. By Prog 1005 the horribly dis figuring scars on Emma - great name - Paris' face have deminished to the point they just look like some crap hipster oriental face tattoo.

9, Durham Red ends the Strontium Dogs run in the same issue and I think I thought this was cool back in the day. I was wrong. It such a shame this storyline was curtailed.

10. Oh and Mark Harrison has some real problems with the storytelling here, even more than in other work of his.

11. Why are wonderful Shaky's Beyond Belief! packed off in one hit on the back page in a four for one dump? So unfair for a while they were the only bloomin' good thing in the Prog. I'm guessing Mr Bishop didn't like them!

12. Dead Reckoning ends in Prog 1006. Phew its one of my least favourite Wagner Dredd and reads to me like him being sucked into the 90s nonsense that at times has so marred the strip.

13. Next Prog 'Return to the Hottie House' just shows what we all know he is more typically capable of! Isn't this one of his favourites?

14. So did the old mystic fella last Prog pull some sort of magic teleport stunt to get Lawless through his 'impossible journey' in time or am I so bored with the clicjed ridden strip I missed something?

Overall though the start to 1000s is VERY hit and miss I'm actually quite enjoying them, nonsense and all... oh Rogue's back...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 December, 2018, 09:41:14 PM
Bloomin' heck the early 1000s make for interesting reading. You get the (failing to be) hyper cool Outlaw just dripping out more bad, bad, bad storytelling as our lead is assasinated in the night. Gun seen blazing at both the cliffhanger and opening if the following episode, only for the assasin to proclaim they can't go through with it... well what the bloomin' heck were they shooting at? Black Light continues to dally with being a good thrill, but never quite gets there. which makes it a fascinatating read in itself. Slaine spins off on a little two part... I don't know what... and certainly hadn't remembered. Though its worth remembering this is the time I finally stopped getting the Prog all together an so have only read the next (almost) 500 Progs as back issues.

Anyway its really Dredd in these issues that really bring me here. My oh my they are an interesting bunch. We get some magnificent examinations of Mega City One as the cruel brutal lead in 'Awayday', and 'My Brilliant Career' . We get the glorious fad in 'The Rise and Fall of Chair Man Dilbert. Very different sport in 'Question of Sport' - a side note to ask what the heck Tom Carney was thinking in his depiction of Dredd? -  and finally the seering hard humanity of 'Death of a Legend' which packs such a magnificent emotional punch. I might not have liked Wagner's 'Dead Reckoning' but in the next 7 issues he shows his genius by giving us an almost perfect summary of the range and wonder of this most magnificent and terrifying of strips.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 December, 2018, 06:50:27 AM
The first part of Mazeworld is bloomin' great!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 December, 2018, 05:14:27 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 14 December, 2018, 06:50:27 AM
The first part of Mazeworld is bloomin' great!

As of course the rest of it Mazeworld Book 1 (does it go by books, I'm guessing there I can't remember) is great. Now it would be easy to get distracted and discuss the breath-taking art by Arthur Ransom. Or simply waffle on about the ripsnorting pace of the plot that Alan Grant creates, while at the same time giving things a depth and intriguing characters to match the action.

No rather the thing that struck me on this read is Adam Cadman. In many ways the stories murderous, traitorous and cowardly led is what makes this work so much more than a bunch of other strip. See in the past I'm whined here about the senseless, classless, hackenyed leads that have blighted so many strips in the early 90s. The bloke in Trash, that horrorbag in Junker, just about everyone in Harlem Heroes (the rubbish one) and so many more. Heck there's plenty of examples in Cadman's contempories the fella from Outlaw. Just horrible characters with nothing to redemn them or their cliched hard man (or woman)  dialogue. Nothing to engage the reader to make them care what happens to them.

In less skilled hands Adam Cadman would join this band of bothers, this cast of cliches, this hackneyed of hardmen, but in Alan Grant's deft tale he raises above all that. He's pretty unlikable... well very unlikable, has a strong line in hardman dialogue (or at least internal dialogue) is pretty irredemnable to start with. Yeah but he feels real and solid, not forced and awkward. He doesn't come across as the worst examples of action movie tough guy as those others do. In fact his faults rather than push the reader away, pull you in make him a great protagonist. There's no doubt he's a terrible man, but what so many others have failed to do in the past is manage to make that mean he doesn't have to therefore be a terrible character.

The biggest shame is since I'm guessing they didn't know this would get a return when they set off, his redemption feels too quick and easy and would have been better played out over a longer time. I seem to recall this is handles somewhat in the next couple of parts, we'll see huh.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 December, 2018, 10:07:26 PM
Couple of bits before we hit the end of 1996.

Rogue Trooper has the really neat idea of having two different arts handle the two strands of the story developing and in Greg Staples and Alex 'BIG knee pads' Ronald its looks great... so great art, great idea goin' to be a great thrill... right... nah it still sucks.

As does Time Flies 2 - its like a Deadline storie's annoying and childish younger brother that won't bugger off when your hangin' with ya friends.

Mambo is fair more interesting than both of them combined... but alas also has a signifcent problem. Its a great early internet thriller, with all the cliches of such things but told effectively and exciting and what not. Its big problem however is it all feels a bit after the Lord Mayors Show. After the world changing events of the second series this feels really low key and grounded. Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself but doesn't feel significent given the Kirbyesque ideas of last time. This would have been a great opening story building to what actually has already gone.

I think that's it for this series which is a real shame as this feels like it had places to go.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 December, 2018, 07:20:19 AM
So the last read of 1996 is the Sci-fi Special

From the heady days of two annual annuals at least three specials this is the last comic standing... and frankly it too feels very ready to fall. Its probably the most 90s looking comics I've ever read. Just strip after strip of sub-Bisley hardmen, chests exposed, spent bullet cases ejaculating everywhere. Its a pretty tired read and if we don't have the talent to sustain the Prog right now having this as a forum to expose new talent seems like a good idea, but makes it a very hard read.

I've a question though, Loaf 96 the cover artist, is that Brendan McCarthy? There's something Brendan McCarthy about it but I'm not convinced and I've not seen the name before?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 16 December, 2018, 07:55:03 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 December, 2018, 07:20:19 AM
I've a question though, Loaf 96 the cover artist, is that Brendan McCarthy? There's something Brendan McCarthy about it but I'm not convinced and I've not seen the name before?

ComicVine says it's Brendan. (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/2000ad-sci-fi-special-19-2000ad-sci-fi-special-199/4000-226033/)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 December, 2018, 10:03:10 PM
Thanks Jim - it certainly looks like his work, just don't remember him using that pseudonym before.

Anyway to matters review and here we are in an interesting transition phase for me as a reader from the comics I read and owned as a kid, into my wilderness years and comics I only read for the first time on catch up maybe 10 years ago, as we rock through ...

1996

Well lets say right from the off its not as bad as 1996... I mean its not great, far from it, but its nowhere near as bad... but we'll get to that , this is after all the 'self absorbed' thread so lets talk about me, me, I, I, me... for context you understand.

So the heady days of 1996. I graduated, but decided that after returning home to Wirral for my summer job I'd head back to Sheffield and make my home there. At first me and my mate Mart were going to get a flat... in the end there was a rabble of 7 of us down Nether Edge, leading a hand to mouth existence doing some pretty crappie jobs. It was a crazy year... but during that return home I made some momentous decisions. Amongst them I looked at the 2000ad's, still landing on my parent doormat, the last comic standing from my collecting heyday and decided there was nothing there for me anymore. It wasn't particularly that the comic itself was bad in my young eyes, it was just that I wasn't interested in comics anymore.

I was 25, music was my thing and the drugs and what not that went with it. That was my thing, I'd 'grown out of comics'...

...pretentious fool that I was... I just stopped paying attention was all.

So anyway in the hedanistic haze... or least as hedanistic as possible, times were 'hard' in the spoilt way of graduates, I was trying to grow up. I just wasn't very good at it and didn't know quite how to do it... and there was no money around...

... can you guess what I'm going to do here...

....see 2000ad was doing the same thing in 1996. It looked at itself in 1995 and seemed to get a shock and decided right time to get this sorted, put things straight and get better. David Bishop made some hard, and by his own admission, wrongheaded decisions. He tried to move on, move the comic on. Trouble is that isn't straight forward. The world doesn't owe you and you need to earn it... and heck times were hard, money was tight. Also while I think David Bishop had a destination in mind I'm not convinced he knew how to get there.

In 1996 he gets his first bit of luck, to back Wagner on Dredd with classic stuff like The Pit he stumbles across Sinister Dexter... its not good yet but, it seems by luck rather than judgement it gets its chance, gets to stick around and then gets a second go in 1997...

Around it the middle ground gets fresh blood and by and large gets stronger. There' still some absolute duffers in there, which I've discussed but there's some good stuff backing it up... good if not great. Another advantage is Slaine picks up as Mills begins... just ... to find his groove again... will it last, I recall not, but it helped 2000ad through this very, very rocky patch.

By the end of the year Bishop has found his first classic (given that S&D isn't there yet) in Mazeworld, which is just great and the previews of 1997 give us much renewed hope...

... oh as with my life 2000ad is making some bloody tragic mistakes. Its no longer Tharg's organ being one of them. Like me so enamoured by what Bishop sees in the zeigtguiest he tries to jetison Tharg and impose the Men in Black on us. Their dry, souless musings have already killed one offs - and will do for some time to come - but now they kill the fun and verve of the Nerve Centre and most negatively the letters page too. God its so dry and uninspiring.

Still overall I've enjoyed 1996 and certainly found it a very interesting, if not successful read. Now 1997... 1997 is possibly going to be the most mixed bag of thrill ever if memory serves. We'll see greats that will save the comic start to develop, while we'll see some of the worst, most lambasted of stories too... it ain't going to be smooth going but heck hard though times are, confused as we may be, we still managed to have some bloody interesting and fun adventures along the way.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 18 December, 2018, 08:14:36 PM
I'm a little way behind you in the 'years on this Earth' stakes, Mr YNWA, and I recall this period rather fondly as my last gasp of extreme fandom before heading off to Gap Year/University business. I didn't stop getting the Prog, but read it only during the holidays in big chunks, which diminishes the fandom aspect*. But the build up to Prog 1000, and the first months after, were a haze of continued 2000ADish excitement, with me, even at 17, still not old enough to realise the comic hadn't been terribly good.

Outlaw truly isn't very good, but I did like seeing kewl artist after kewl artist attempt to make a gunfight look good in comics form. It rarely did. I guess they were trying to ape recent movie 'the Quick and the Dead' - or did that come out at the same time? In the end, Sinister Dexter pulled off the same 'guns are cool' trick but with more verve and, crucially, plenty of humour in the scripts.

*I got back into fannish fun when I took our my first subscription to my own address away from my parents, just in time for the Shakara-era Prog.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 December, 2018, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 18 December, 2018, 08:14:36 PM
I guess they were trying to ape recent movie 'the Quick and the Dead' - or did that come out at the same time?

You know your right - I thought that was after Outlaw but Quick and the Dead was 1995! Still to be fair Outlaw pilfrers badly from many films and not just one!

So anyway first thing to note in 1997 is Judge Dredd - Darkside. I love John Smith. I love Judge Dredd... so how does this feel like a waste of both? Its a story that doesn't fill its 12 parts for all the things thrown at it nothing really gells into place and we end up with a lukewarm Dredd vs big bad monster piece and little more.

Such a shame.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 19 December, 2018, 10:14:53 AM
For my money Darkside suffers from being a mystery story that isn't nearly mysterious enough. In theory, we readers are meant to believe that Judge Dredd has become a murderer. But because we see the actual murderer (who DOES look like Dredd, for spoiler reasons) is a weird green colour, there's never any doubt that it's not Dredd. The story is also not nearly weird enough.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 19 December, 2018, 10:26:06 AM
I like Darkside, but it's telling that my brief post-1000 spell return to buying the prog semi-regularly came to an end before it did. Although it may have been the return of Janus and SinDex that drove me away - I saw out pretty-but-dull Mazeworld and abandoned ship again, this time for several years.

Darkside just didn't really deliver on a great premise, despite sharp art and a decent pace.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 19 December, 2018, 06:32:11 PM
Darkside is a really good idea that just doesn't go anywhere. I think it also needed a different artist - I generally like Paul Marshall's art a lot, but this isn't his strongest era, and the colouring does him no favours. I think this one might have worked better with some fully-painted work in the Kev Walker / Sean Phillips / Colin MacNeil vein.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2018, 09:44:21 PM
Its been a steady start to 1997. Slaine has a residency (why oh why was Tharg The Men in Black  trying too hard like this!) led by Treasures of Britain. I remember liking this story much more than I am on this reread. The first part was pretty good but this second seems all too keen to wrap things up as quick as possible and it all feels a bit of a damp squib because of it. Still lovely Dermot Power art raises it up a level.

Sinister Dexter returns with the joyful Gunshark Vacation. Its not S&D at its best yet, but Simon Davis as regular artist is boon and this first long form story sets things up for this series to become the great its not quite yet. The one off Headcase that follows hints nicely as to where we are going.

Janus is wholly irriatating.

And Vector 13... well that continues - thankfully Prog 1032 sees some sense returning to the Prog as Tharg returns sooner than I'd been expecting. I don't recall what made David Bishop see sense - sometimes I wish I was re-reading Thrillpower Overload alongside my Progslog - but that would defeat the point of a pure Prog read. Anyway whatever the reasoning and however half-hearted the Tharg the Mighty story that seems him return - Simon Davis while a genius and perfect on Sinister Dexter doesn't do the best Nerve Centre Droids for me - the Men in Blacks ill advised and now horribly dated time in charge of the Prog, one whihc stiffled so much fun that Tharg brings, is over almost before it started.

Tharg is once again king of all he surveys and just in time for the 20th Anniverary.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 January, 2019, 09:26:53 PM
Well the 20th Annniversy Prog gets a lot right. It really does, and it and the following progs provide much to talk about, much indeed.

Prog 1033
starts many things. Firstly new stories getting 10 or so pages giving those openning more room to breathe, no bad thing but when you have double Dredd it means you only have 3thrills which is a shame, especially when you consider one of them is a sub-par Slaine. Still we're talking about what's right and if you have three thrills double Dredd, a classic like Slaine and the opening to the intially promising Mercy Heights isn't a bad way to go. I'll talk more about Mercy Heights as we get into the series as I believe it starts well, building a nice pseudo-complex world and a series with many angles to play with, medical drama, crime drama, politicals and a bit of warring... but I'm getting ahead of myself ... it uses its 6 pages well.

Its also nice to see Dredd front and centre (well back as it goes) again. Double Wagner and one of them, Hunting Party a beaut as I recall, setting off nicely. This all sits well with Tharg screaming in the Nerve Centre again.

Okay so murky art and a story rehashed from a 48 page special on Slaine don't help but its the thought that counts.

The one problem I'm not getting past is trimming the page size.

Ouch.

I'd forgotten how much I noticed the impact in the art. I'm not sure the reason for this, maybe the post movie flop penny pinching has started? Maybe the its to give the Prog the same dimensions as a US comic for reprint purposes... maybe both... maybe neither. Anyway I do feel it a great deal and its a shame as it really compresses the art and space on the page. As it goes its the same width as the current Prog, but taller - though reduced from recent girth (in re-read terms) - which just goes to show its the proportions not the over all size that give the maximum thrill.

Still one of the better Progs of recent years, which while not saying much is at least saying something and things are about to get better...

... mind before we get to that we get an experiment that shows much about what has lead the Prog to the place from which it needs to recover... but I'll save that for next time...

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 02 January, 2019, 10:08:14 PM
ISTR that the paper resize was a cash saving exercise - from what I recall in TPO(?) a pretty significant saving as well?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 02 January, 2019, 10:17:55 PM
TPO page 192 (my old version!)  "Bishop admits it was more to do with costcutting and convenience than innovation.  "It saved us a five figure sum each year because we were using less paper to print the comic. Also, the comic's art had been lsightly too large to fit ona  single sheet of A3, so every page had to be copied or scanned in two halves. Going A4 eliminated that"

Quote from: Leigh S on 02 January, 2019, 10:08:14 PM
ISTR that the paper resize was a cash saving exercise - from what I recall in TPO(?) a pretty significant saving as well?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 03 January, 2019, 12:09:48 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2018, 09:44:21 PM
Janus is wholly irriatating.


Like, wholly.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2019, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 02 January, 2019, 10:17:55 PM
TPO page 192 (my old version!)  "Bishop admits it was more to do with costcutting and convenience than innovation.  "It saved us a five figure sum each year because we were using less paper to print the comic. Also, the comic's art had been lsightly too large to fit ona  single sheet of A3, so every page had to be copied or scanned in two halves. Going A4 eliminated that"

Quote from: Leigh S on 02 January, 2019, 10:08:14 PM
ISTR that the paper resize was a cash saving exercise - from what I recall in TPO(?) a pretty significant saving as well?

Thanks Leigh, wasn't sure it hit this early, seem to recall he had to find savings year on year for some time... I will crack open Thrillpower Overload again some time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2019, 08:03:13 AM
Quote"Would the scripts be the same or be given a harder, more satirical edge to reflect the rising cynicism of the late 1990s."

And so the question is asked about Prog 3000 the promotional comic given away with Prog 1034 reinventing... well maybe... the thrills presented in Prog 1. The answer to that question may well tell us a lot about the malaise that's infected the Prog in the 90s and why the road ahead is quite so bumpy as Tharg drags things back.

Now an important caveat to mention before I dtart, these re-imagined thrills have only 2 or 3 pages to make their point and create their more satirical edge and this is a clear disadvantage BUT its all about the attitude isn't it, the cool cynicism... lets see...

B.L.A.I.R 1... well Tony B as hyper-powered superhero is pretty on the nose isn't it. It thinks its being smart but it lacks the shy undercurrent of the best of 2000ad satire... is 'rising cynicism of the late 1990s' all about screaming stuff into your face?

Hike Harlem Heroes... hmmm has a decent gag of a penalty shootout, but does it have anything else to say which the original doesn't is the attitude and cool any more satirical or cynical as the violence is more direct and in your face?

Mind does Dan Dare have anything to say at all... this is so bland... is that the intent? Is that the commentry? Maybe I'm not giving this strip the credit it deserves, maybe the point is a hero from the 50s has nothing to offer the new cool (90s) now? If that is the point it still has nothing to say mind!

Flesh really has nothing new to say with its less interesting slight diversion from the original.

Similarly Invasion! really says nowt by swapping the 'dirty' Russians for the EU, well not so much then, maybe now this would led to more interesting ideas!

So what do we learn... we learn about the shortsighted arrogance that has caused the Prog to stumble, at times so badly over the last 6 or more years. The idea that the 'old' needs to be refreshed to say anything that is new and cutting edge is clearly poppycock and the old was doing quite well thank you very much. The new 'cool' cynical attitude is at best adding a veneer of more violence, which was thought to be mature back then, at worse is actually completely lacking the guile of the past...

... mind something this way comes and next Prog we learn that while we might not yet have realised what the Prog has done to lose its way so badly it's also, even unwittingly, starting to put the very things that will get it back where it belongs...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2019, 09:59:15 PM
So lets talk about early Nikolai Dante (very early) as it makes an interesting comparison to its contempary Sinister Dexter which started about a year earlier.

Dante comes out the blocks feeling almost fully formed and it very easy to understand why that might be. It seems to of had a long gestation. Apparently pitched by Robbie Morrison, if memory serves, to start at or after the Tsar Wars. David Bishop apparently past it back and and asked Morrison to flesh out how Dante and his world got there... what a stroke of genius that was.

It seems the time taken to return to the strip. To develop ideas and stories before this massive event mean it drops feeling pretty much fully formed. It also suggests that both creators and editor had confidence in the strip and as such time and space to put its pieces into place.

Compare that to Sinister Dexter, pitched as an after thought. Kept in the Prog by scheduling issues, returned after being allowed to develop a little more, but still not quite there. Early Sinister Dexter is therefore not surprisingly choppy it, feels rough and suffers from the worst ideas of cool that surround it... but a great strip is struggling to get out.

Its very possible the origins of both these brothers in arms - as I think of them as they united to make 2000ad great again - helps them become the classic strip they both become. Sinister Dexter's difficult gestation, seen messy on the page, with little confidence or love shown it. Rushed and rough, the rebellious unwanted child, it was forced into different corners and sharps helping it become the robust flexible wonder it soon will be and remains to this day. Able to support all sorts of stories, long and short. With a variety of themes and styles, all be it with one mastermind behind it all.

Dante is more considered however, its creation given time and space. It having an identified direction of travel, but landing fully formed due to the love and confidence it was afforded. Don't get me wrong its still a cheeky little minx and does have space and time to develop into something more than it started out as BUT its start is much more structured and it struts into the Prog with the same cocky stride and knowing grin of its lead. I'm four episodes in and already we've had catchphases dropped in with easy already. Reoccuring gags are set up, I get the impression with the full belief that they would be just that. Characters are in place and seem fully formed yet with room to grow and develop.

Its just a glorious start and the scary thing is we know its going to get better yet!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 03 January, 2019, 10:28:43 PM
I re-read the first few Nikolai Dante progs recently and I noticed the same thing: it's out of the gate with a fully fledged world around it.  The traits that get focus early on stay with it through to the very end. 

And yes, this and Sin Dex were key as new thrills that could stand alongside the best of the rest with ease.

Look at prog 1035, and I'd place Nikolai Dante easily at the top of the pile (which looked like this):

a. Judge Dredd: Lost in Americana
b. Mercy Heights
c. Nikolai Dante
d. Al's Baby: Public Enemy #1
e. Slaine: King of Hearts
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 January, 2019, 07:56:03 AM
Well I said we read in interesting time and there's lots to talk about from the post 20th Anniversary Prog so lets have a quick catch up shall we:

1. I know we don't like Alan Craddock's colouring but by heck he does stamp all over Kevin Walker's art in Mercy Heights.

2. The addition of Al's Baby to the line-up gives the Prog a really nice balance adding his comedic delight to the mix.

3. We get lots of interesting freebies at this time, which is nice but what the heck is 'Havok' all about? It been cropping up all over the place at the moment, no one story distinguishable from the last and then we get this weird supplement... oh its a game... and then its gone - phew!

4. Prog 1037 just shows the amazing predictive power of Tharg and no I'm not talking about chilling prophetic Bob Booth in Dredd's Fog on the Eerie (that's next Prog) - rather Al's Baby proclamation
Quote'The Big Bad Winter of 2017-18'
okay so it was more the early spring of 2018 but we can forgive Nostradamus Wagner a couple of months can't we.

5. I love Calum Alexander Watt's art but his more photo based (?) art here feels a bit stilted compared to what came before - and what comes after as I recall.

6. Oh its Andew Currie who takes over on art from Kev Walker on Mercy Heights ... he's come on hasn't he!

7. I almost stopped reading 'Slaine: King of Hearts' as its SOOOO bloody murky...

8. Mind it was the bloomin' rubbish, rehashed story that did for me... Slaine has reached its low ebb and its going to be scrapping along the bottom of the barrel for a while to come as I recall.

9. The Grail War certainly suggests its not going to improve in either department.

10. Mercy Heights is a fun soap opera but by George it doesn't half take itself too seriously!

11. How good is Henry Flint on Dredd. Only his second story and already he's marking himself as a great! If not the greatest. Only he and Carlos have not only done the quality, but the quantity as well. We got his work to look forward to over another 1000 and more Progs and 20 years of Dredd. We are blessed!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 January, 2019, 09:38:53 PM
Getting a little behind on my whittering so a few quick thoughts before we hit the Summer Relaunch and I take a quik break to re-read Hinterkind, looking forward to that have to say anyway back to my whittering...

1. The start of The Romanov Dynasty reveals what a superbly crafted opening run Nikolai Dante has. Pieces are slowly dropped into place to seamlessly and thrilling build a worth without missing a beat. Dante a glorious lead pulling you through it all. Its just exceptional stuff.

2. Alas at the same time 'Hunting Party' starts to drift and loose its cool. It started as an interesting re-run of the Cursed Earth exploring new corners of craziness with rigour and imagination. For me from Dance of the Spider Queen it starts to lose its vigour.

3. Then we get that of Dredd eatting a spider buttie - huh?!?

4. Dredd's not the only thing unravelling:

a) Mercy Hits starts to get lost in its own multiple plots and what once seemed a great source of variety and potential has become a bit of a mumbled mess in which I'm not sure I want to care about. Its trying to be a soap opera to multiple storylines but it doesn't have the guile and skill to juggle it all.

b) I've enjoyed Al's Baby Public Enemy No 1 but by the end I'm beginning to wonder what its adding to the piece. Its fun but no longer feels as fresh as the earlier stories . Its dawning on me its adding nothing... still fun at least.

c) Slaine - The Grail War is Slaine at a low ebb. The story just feels cold and tired. The art isn't close to much what has gone before. Like Al's Baby it has nothing new to say, unlike Al's Baby its not even fun though!

5) So the push for Witch World starts... feels like a bit of a wasted effort now huh!

6) Nice to have Anderson back. Steve Sampson's art is absolutely fascinating. The story is hard.

7) I really don't enjoy Dredd - Camp Demento.

8) Mind while I'm not a fan of Jason Brashill's art its not as bad as... well I'd forgotten David Bircham had done a Dredd...

9) Hunting Party picks up with 'Trail of the Man Eaters' Up to the last part its really good... alas the last part feels very laboured and expositiony. Still up to then a good ending.

10) The last part of The Romanov Dynasty is exceptional. Such chilling forsight. Such wonderful character work. Just brilliant.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 10 January, 2019, 12:32:07 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 January, 2019, 09:38:53 PM
1. The start of The Romanov Dynasty reveals what a superbly crafted opening run Nikolai Dante has. Pieces are slowly dropped into place to seamlessly and thrilling build a worth without missing a beat. Dante a glorious lead pulling you through it all. Its just exceptional stuff.

Morrison had the whole Tsar Wars saga mapped out and intended to start with it, but Tharg convinced him that the characters needed more of an introduction. The earlier books were written when the world was already fully formed in his head, which is why they are so confident and as you say, drop seamlessly into place. I've just read through the end of the war in the Hachette collections and it truly is a glorious body of work. Definitely in my top 5 thrills of all time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 January, 2019, 06:15:58 AM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 10 January, 2019, 12:32:07 AM
Definitely in my top 5 thrills of all time.

Everytime I read it I think its my favourite of all time. This beginning is making me think that might be the case again!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 10 January, 2019, 09:44:10 AM
I remember really struggling with Slaine at the time, but having read this era in the collections recently it holds up surprisingly well. Definitely the murky repro in the Progs didn't help, but it also feels as if Mills had given up writing thematically coherent episodes, and was already writing for the trade. The tale of Catholic soldiers besieging a town of Cathars is a weird fit for a story about a pagan barbarian, mind.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 January, 2019, 09:25:42 PM
These days commeth the Summer commeth the relaunch Prog and so with Prog 1050... though really we're not up to full steam until Prog 1051  but forgive me Prog 1050 as the better ring to it and the better strip as its not until then we get Sinister Dexter back... but I guess I'll come back to that when Murder 101 ends.

Anyway on first sight the summer line-up looks pretty good. Dredd has a glorious opening to a really fun story amongst the many gloriously Mega City One citzens that this story showcases - with Dredd really nothing more than a blunt tool in this tale we get the first appearance of Oola Blint.

Then we get much more plugged firt appearance as the heralded Witch World finally starts and to be honest it has a great opening episode... it starts to unravel a bit almost straight away and I have to be honest I'm not entirely sure why. Siku's art can be a little clunky storytelling wise but it certainly dynamic and striking but some how even if these early episodes you wonder if its going to have anything interesting to say.

Across the Prog Anderson Psi Divison - Crusade is certainly setting itself up to have something very big to say. If anything its a little over earnst in is sentiment but the scale of the theme match the size of Steve Sampson's boots and it all somehow works rather well as a beginning and then Anderson goes down with a bang...

Then we have a comedy double act... of very variable quality. I was a teenage Tax Consultant should be a hit, after all its got a pedigree creative team but right out the door you begin to realise its going to be a very one note story from Wagner regardless of how lovely the art is from Gibson. Sinister Dexter hits the comedy notes so much better when S&D return as mentioned in 1051. Its fun and thrilling, sharp and fiestly right off the bat and Dabnett and Simon Davis seem to have found their and the Gunsharks true balance and as we see over the next few years its one that they'll play with in almost endless ways and I'm really looking forward to revisiting this strip.

So yeah the Summer of 1997 as well as seeing me leaving a 7 folks crazy hovel and moving into one of the funniest shared houses I'd ever live in, for a year with just the four of us starting to get better at life... oh not there yet... 2000ad is also playing really nicely with its efforts to rediscover itself. Its not there but its trying new things and realising Slaine has run out of things to say (for now at least) and even when its failing at leasy you're starting to understand what its trying to do.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: PsychoGoatee on 18 January, 2019, 10:05:04 PM
Right on, and I really dig the late mid-to-late 90s style in various things. I'm around this place in the Dredd Case files at the moment myself too.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 18 January, 2019, 10:06:50 PM
I'm really enjoying your reread journey but you're sometimes frustratingly lacking in detail so I can't remember the stories you reference - for example:
QuoteDredd has a glorious opening to a really fun story amongst the many gloriously Mega City One citzens that this story showcases - with Dredd really nothing more than a blunt tool in this tale we get the first appearance of Oola Blint.
The name rings a bell, but I have no idea what story you're talking about.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 January, 2019, 10:14:05 PM
What you want me to say more - you fool you. The story is Mad City a three part that follows a bunch of citizens as they crash into Dredd's world. Most are on a bus together as two of them rob it, stealing drugs from Oola and pills from a Doc Jekyll stand-in as Oola's husband flys overhead watching and the bus hurtles towards a theatre were Chris Evans rages against the abuse of the Bard with a blaster...

... does that help any?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 January, 2019, 10:18:05 PM
Mad City, progs 1050-1051. 

You can Barney (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1050) a bit to get more info on where Colin's at in the progs.

I have a magic spreadsheet as well:

(https://i.imgur.com/Yy1yg9T.png)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 January, 2019, 10:26:19 PM
Ohhh that Spreadsheet looks like a thing of beauty!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 18 January, 2019, 10:32:25 PM
I know I could do homework via Barney if I really wanted to research it, but seriously, life's too short - just a brief mention of what the story is about would do.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 January, 2019, 11:05:55 PM
Too short to spend hours trawling through databases?  But ... but ... what else is there?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 January, 2019, 06:24:42 AM
And I like to be a tease!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 19 January, 2019, 11:06:11 AM
Hm, recently read the Mad City Mega-Collection volume, had looked forward to this one too... That 3-parter kicks it off and it's a ropey start :-( A thrown-together set of daft citizens, was it well-received?!
[Best thing in the MC book: Unamerican Graffiti. Perfect for the Chopper volume, guess not, in the scheme of things]

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 January, 2019, 09:16:01 PM
Teenage Tax Consultant is the first make way from the Summer line up after 10 parts. The ending sums up just what a weak concept this was.

After our lead rambles around showing what an uninteresting fate being turned into a were-accountant is the end is a tension gripping escape to a luxury Scottish island, saved by his beautiful girl friend. Such a waste of two great talents.

In the Nerve Centre character based teases for Space Girls have begun appearing... it really is going to be that bad isn't it... while we are well on the path to recovery these sort of things remind us what a rocky road we have ahead...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 January, 2019, 01:40:20 AM
My name is Funt Solo and I enjoyed Teenage Tax Consultant.

It's more memorable than anything else in the prog at the time.  Mad City I'd completely forgotten, although I get from one of the covers I saw a couple of days ago that it has a cameo from that bloke off the tele that was shit at hosting Top Gear (which is in itself a huge complement).  Evans.

Witch World, Crusade (Anderson) and Murder 101 (Sin Dex): I couldn't relate those plots to you on pain of pain (as Wesley would have it).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 January, 2019, 09:44:17 PM
Well your right there. Much as I don't like it its better than strips like Angel which I don't even have an option about they were so dull.

Anyway to matters new... or ending. Prog 1061 has three of um, and we seem to have started the cycle of a few launch Progs a year with accompanying clearout Progs like this. I don't remember them being in place quite yet, but then my memory and all that. Something I'll keep an eye on.

Anyway lets look at those endings and the series they end.

Witch World is the weakest on both fronts the ending is a pause rather than a conclusion but one I don't think we get to. In my head (see comment about memory above) this one doesn't return? If it does I don't recall it - see comments about bland series that leave on mark about. For all it pith and vinegar, pushed advertising and top rank art it just doesn't amount to much. Hard world weary warrior is all bitter and hard to his young ward - who frankly doesn't seem to need the help with all the blasting and power she doesn't even seem to earn. Shallow and bland sword and sorcery guff and in the end it just fizzles out.

Anderson - Crusade
is certainly not bland but seems to push to hard to be powerful and dramatic and really juggles with over egging the pudding. As the millions of children are led out of the city and the city takes some pretty extreme action blowing up... well we're not quite sure how many. Its an action that I just don't see why they'd take and it feels forced for dramatic effect. Still it brings together some stories that have been developing for a while. Blows the head of the Judge Goon storyline and while it too leaves things open for the next story unlike Witch World its not a fizzle and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next... which if I'm honest I don't 100% remember... bloody memory!

Finally saving the best until last we get the conclusion to Sinister Dexter - Murder 101. Well I say the best. Its fast paced, exciting and immense fun but its still not quite S&D at its best. I mean its getting very close with glorious Simon Davis art and Dabnett seems to be having a ball. We get the shoulder shot and its all starting to fall into place as Weld and Rocky join the cast. The trouble is Dabnett also tries to make an early stab at dealing with the moral of it all placing the police and 'establishment' of Downlode as worse then the Gun Sharks themselves - what with their code and all. And frankly it feels weak. But as I've said before if you don't look at things too closely you can get past it and just enjoy the glorious fun our leads provide.

So with endings so new beginning and we have Sinister Dexter get to its peak with what I think is going to be a series of shorts over the next 100 or so Progs (my count might be out) and we get... Space Girls ... and Vector bloody 13 is back... and Life Less Ordinary starts next Prog after Next Prog... oh ... well we'll have stuff to discuss at least!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 22 January, 2019, 11:28:21 AM
Witch World... dodgy Slaine... Space Girls... Vector 13... Life Less Ordinary...
It's a short period of time, but for whatever reason this seems to be what people think of when they think of Bish-Op, poor bastard.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 22 January, 2019, 12:16:51 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 22 January, 2019, 11:28:21 AM
Witch World... dodgy Slaine... Space Girls... Vector 13... Life Less Ordinary...
It's a short period of time, but for whatever reason this seems to be what people think of when they think of Bish-Op, poor bastard.

I just bought the updated thrillpower overload yesterday and while flicking through, came across a wonderful quote from John Tomlinson about Space Girls - he said that he'd always thought any idea could work if well-written, but was proved wrong by Space Girls "it just lay there on the page, coughing blood"
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 26 January, 2019, 09:30:07 PM
Just curious, being a bit behind on the latest prog slog.  In Emerald Isle, the Blitzer is Mr Staples.  Is that the same Mr Staples of later art prog fame or just a coincidence?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 January, 2019, 09:14:02 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 26 January, 2019, 09:30:07 PM
Just curious, being a bit behind on the latest prog slog.  In Emerald Isle, the Blitzer is Mr Staples.  Is that the same Mr Staples of later art prog fame or just a coincidence?

I would hae throught it was before Greg Staples was in Tharg's and certainly John Wagner's gaze? Don't know of course but I'd say coincidence.

Anyway in Prog 1062 we see something very strange. And no I'm not refering to Space Girls we'll save that for another time... if there's anything even worth saying. Life Less Ordinary doesn't start until next Priog either. No the strange thing comes from Wagner and Alex Ronald's Judge Dredd story. "A Walk on Gang Alley" is a particularly fine one parter, all be it a double length one. Dredd arrests a Prep in gang land. Perp protects his innocence but either way their ride out crashes and Dredd loose contact and side arm and so Prep in tow he has to make his way out of the danger zone, vastly out numbered and very limited in his ability to fght back... while its a very good one off there's nothing strange about that.

No what's strange is there's a panel in it, page three if you want to check it out and Dredd losing balance and banging his head intio the side of his crashing hoover vehicle. Nothing too strange there either EXCEPT for whatever reason, one that utterly escapes me this panel becomes the image of Dredd that's used in the Nerve Centre in the 'Roll Call' section for a good few weeks to come (as I recall)... weird. I mean it is literally Dredd, grimacing as his helmet smashes with a decent impact into a wall. Why on Earth or indeed Quaxxann would you use that as your 'avatar' for Ol' Stoney Face?

... well we are in weird times and we'll talk about that more next week.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 January, 2019, 09:33:13 PM
TOP 2000AD MOMENTS OF THE LAST 25 YEARS

Recently McGurk 76 posted the interesting question what do folks think where the greatest moment of the last 25 years.

https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=45554 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=45554)

I went for a slightly different approach to many, picking Progs rather than actual moments. If I was to pick just one it would be Prog 1066... The Sex Prog... but please bare with me. As I explained at the time.

QuoteProg 1066 - now this one surprised me, but is perfect for making the point. Its the first issue that I can find that has the holy triumvante of Wagner Dredd, Nikolai Dante and Sinster Dexter. Now it also just happens to be the bloody awful 'Sex' issue. But kinda hammers home the point. For all the crap that swimmed around the Prog at this time having these three in regular rotation really helped stir the Prog back to form.

Let me take that a little further here. See for a while now I've been whittering about recovery of the Prog and that it'd be a long and bumpy ride and this Prog more than any encapsulates that as I said above. More importantly however as I've said here before these three strips saved the Prog. Now I have no actual evidence to back that up. No sales figures, no idea what impact if any they had in real terms. However in my mind its David Bishop having these three together, or variations there of really gave the Prog what it needed to get back on its feet.

This solid back bone meant that for the longest time there was always two or three great stories in the Galaxies Greatest. This meant that while mistakes like Space Girls were being made on an all too regular basis and Vector 13 was boring folks to bits the thrillpower sustained.

Dredd, Dante and Dexter with a little bit of dick for emphasis the most important moment in 2000ad... shame its a pretty rank Prog!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: PsychoGoatee on 31 January, 2019, 02:23:42 PM
Good stuff, and well said.  :D
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 31 January, 2019, 06:51:31 PM
Definitely true to say that Dredd, Sin Dex & Dante were backbone thrills for the prog (for a time).  And while Dredd had been around forever, Sin Dex & Dante were new core thrills when it seemed like there'd been no new core thrills for such a long time.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 January, 2019, 09:14:47 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 January, 2019, 06:51:31 PM
Definitely true to say that Dredd, Sin Dex & Dante were backbone thrills for the prog (for a time).  And while Dredd had been around forever, Sin Dex & Dante were new core thrills when it seemed like there'd been no new core thrills for such a long time.

Yeah Slaine was still doing the rounds, though for me past its prime and slipping further from that, but a lot of the 'tent pole' thrills where gone and didn't look like they were going to return (though most did). Rogue Trooper was a confused mess about to get more confused. Strontium Dog had the rest of the world to explore, but always in search of something that could match Johnny and never finding it. Nemesis was long gone and even the teases that stopped so the Prog was crying out for thrill like Sinister Dexter and Dante.

There was a lot of other things going on in later 1997, not much of it good. I like the movie Life Less Ordinary... its not great but I like it enough but it offers nothing to make it a film worth converting a comic strip. It charm is in it leads chemistry. Space Girls I've discussed all I need to and Vector 13 isn't going to change.... which is its biggest driest problem. Then we get to B.L.A.I.R. 1 a classic case of satire not really working when its so on the nose.

So we can see just what it is that  our new 'core' is offering and why they where so needed!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 February, 2019, 12:48:10 PM
1997 Annuals and Speci...

oh bugger - I know I've not been the biggest fan of these as the years have gone on, but its weird that there are none at all this year... as I recall we'll have to wait until the 2004(ish) new Creators Winter Special before we get any thing else... and that's just a blip until about 5 years ago?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 01 February, 2019, 12:56:45 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 01 February, 2019, 12:48:10 PM
1997 Annuals and Speci...

oh bugger - I know I've not been the biggest fan of these as the years have gone on, but its weird that there are none at all this year...

Quoth Andy Diggle, many moons ago: "Nobody bought them."
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 February, 2019, 04:28:27 PM
1995 Winter Special #07 
1996 JD Mega Special #09
1996 Sci-Fi Special #19
...
2005 Winter Special #08
...
2014 Sci-Fi Special #20
2014 Winter Special #09
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 February, 2019, 07:44:07 AM
If I was less lazy I could have done that Funt Solo - so thanks. One of the blessing / curses if this reread is I'm trying to be good and not look ahead. This allows me to be surprised when some stuff shows up... due to my shocking memory. It also means I can justify not doing stuff like that that which allows me to be lazy!

Anyway onwards to ... well a backwards looks as I sum up - as best I can - 1997.

I always like to see what my predictions for a given year were when I reviewed the previous year. So 'in' 1996 I suggested

QuoteNow 1997... 1997 is possibly going to be the most mixed bag of thrill ever if memory serves. We'll see greats that will save the comic start to develop, while we'll see some of the worst, most lambasted of stories too... it ain't going to be smooth going but heck hard though times are, confused as we may be, we still managed to have some bloody interesting and fun adventures along the way.

Nailed it.

Pretty straightforward year in my eyes. Its the year 2000ad became a Prog of two halves - I live to fuel the use of cliche. I've really enjoyed reading 1997 Progs. Again they've often not been great but for the next few years I strongly suspect we'll be talking about highs and lows and this annual summary will become a needless repetition just collating the things I've said 'during' the year. 1997 genuinely lets that be the case.

Its such an important year in my mind for reasons I've already covered enough. As the trio of Prog saves raise to the top  all hell can break loose elsewhere and the Galaxies Greatest can remain just that.

Elsewhere Slaine stops being good and will stay there for... well lets see. I really like the experimentation that's going on, Space Girls,  Life Less Ordinary B.L.A.I.R. 1, the Sex issue even if the individual stories are terrible I enjoy the spirit of adventure they bring in the Prog. Maybe next year the experiments might get a bit more varied in quality i.e. any of them might be good!

Nice to have Anderson back in the Prog and the middle ground ... actually I think the middle ground is basically Mercy Heights... damn I wish I'd started with that as that provides the best summary of the year with the most original way of saying it! Also worth noting the number of double length thrills that start appearing. Dredd, Sinister Dexter all get goes and I think this thrill lenght variance will become a feature of the coming years and I imagine will help David Bishop directing traffic.

As for my predictions for 1998 - I'm really looking forward to it. 2 to 3 good thrills per Prog all of which are some of my favourite all times thrills can't be bad and some choas surrounding it to keep me on my toes. If we could just keep Slaine in the quiet I'd be loving this!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 February, 2019, 06:44:42 AM
Short and snappy vs. long a flabby

So as we hit 1998... bloody hell how did we get to 1998... anyway we hit 1998 and have one week tp wrap all the current stuff up for the special Dredd long 1077. So we get an interestingly contrasted couple of Progs.

In 1076 you get a bunch of one offs and a terrible cover. The cover is bad as its a direct panel lift from the Anderson story, the one off 'Danse Macabre', which might be a decent story but I'm struggling to tell as I really don't get on with the art by Angel Unzueta at all. So the cover image is a heavily enlarged image with the tag line '"Anderson is HOT!" ... ouch.

Dredd is the only ongoing stuff finishing a fun robot Frankenstein love tale. Aside from that a Vector 13, yawn and two SInister Dexters which works well to showcase the diversity of the strip, even if one has some pretty shocking art by Clint Langley which I just find harsh on the eye. The other has some lovely Alex Ronald art, showing that he's become the artist he always promised to be, with this inked style I actually prefer to his glorious 'painted' stuff these days.

So yeah the first prog of 1998 is a curious beast that almost shows how 2000ad can pack a real punch with sharp, short thrills... alas it doesn't quite make it.

So in complete contrast Prog 1077 goes to the other extreme with a Prog long Dredd by Wagner and Jason Brashill, well 24 page story with filler advertising what in the year to come from Tharg.

Its an interesting story as we reach 2020 - much to everyones surprise I'd guess - and realise that was the year of Feyy's prophecy of a great doom befalling the Meg City one. And so it seem to come as Dredd sees the Judge Child who transforms into The Mutant and he needs Anderson to get to the bottom of it.

The thing is this story feels unnecessary as we're dealt with this a number of times and the threat has been abandoned, nuked and then time travelled out of existance already in various stories over the years. However Wagner has a neat trick up his sleeve that acknowledges that then gives the story valid reason to exist.

The other problem is the art, I frankly hate it. Jason Brashill isn't my favourite artist, so of the time and his pen and ink work especially exposes him to be style over substance. Here its this curious mix of gritty with his normal clean smooth hyper-realised lines. It just looks odd and I think this is largely as he's just a bad fit for the horror elements this story tries to return to and in trying to modify his art style to move towards this he just makes this odd mis-match that fails on both counts. The result is it sucks a lot of the potential horror out of the story was Anderson's over large cartoon eye emphasize...

...so yeah two very different Progs and they make an interesting contrast. Alas as we are still firmly in recovery here neither is as successful as it might be and neither a particular success.

So to anwser the title "Short and snappy vs. long a flabby" alas at this stage it a rather frustrating 1 : 1 draw and I'm not sure we get the replay I'd be interested to see these days!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 February, 2019, 08:35:49 AM
The art of telling a story

Bloomin' heck there's really no messing about in 1998 is there. No sooner has the year begun and we're at our first wrap up Prog by the end of February. Given the amount I've got to read in this 'batch of comics' (I refer the loyal reader to the beginning of this thread were I try to explain how I organise my comic reading and how this Prog Slog fits into that) I'm going to take this unexpected opportunity to read the first half of GMozz's JLA run... I digress ...

I actually came here to discuss a couple of things or three.

Firstly I really want to like Durham Red - Scarlet Cantos but Mark Harrison's art really does have storytelling issues alas.

Speaking of artistic issues there's a wonderful Dredd serial in the last few Progs in 'Missing' in which Dredd is kidnapped and sold on to a collector of the world's finest examples of humankind in any given field. In telling the tale we actually spend the first half the story wondering where the heck Dredd is and the suggestion is pushed that he's dead. I wish Wagner had played with this a bit longer as I think it had quite the potential. Still the second half of six resolving the whole thing is fun.

Alas Lee Sullivan's art on the story isn't for me and also has its storytelling problems all be in a very different way to Mark Harrison. While Harrison's hyper-realised glarefest in these issues just simply obsures what's going on with his obsession with detail and exploding lighting at the expense of clarity. In the case of Sullivan's much more traditional style he just makes a few odd choices' and just don't give the reader the elements in place or in relationship to each other in a panel they really need. Both have issues and while Harrison's art is immediately more exciting than Sullivan's its problems are bigger and Sullivan's slightly ungrippng and inelegant style works a little better. Neither is great, but they present an interesting comparison as to when art doesn't work.

Should of course note that these days Mark Harrison has really fine tuned his art and makes far less mistakes than he did in these days... though he still makes them. Alas not seen Lee Sullivan's work for some time so not sure how he's developed.

Finally Prog 1083 suggests that we're at the end of Vector 13 ... please say its so. I've whined before about how the construct that forms Vector 13's way into story limits it and kills much of the ability to engage the reader and the storys more often that not become cold and lack humanity. I know I've gone on about this before but I return to it simply to make clear that its not just artists that can damage a story by poor telling. The very nature of the strip can do that just fine by itself.

In my head this strip lasted longer than this... maybe it just felt so... my none peaking methodology on this slog means I can't confirm if the series is done, but I hope Tharg isn't teasing me!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 11 February, 2019, 12:18:34 PM
100% agree on both Missing as a Dredd classic rendered ordinary by having non-spectacular artwork, and on early Mark Harrison having too much flash and not enough storytelling.

That said, when I've taken my time over Scarlet Cantos era Durham Red, there are a lot of details in the artwork that are super impressive. It's not a million miles from the Ridley Scott problem - so much effort in the production design, some good character work, but any actual story gets rather lost in the mix.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 February, 2019, 10:05:27 PM
Prog 1084 - Its a funny old Prog

Not Prog 1084 but what it said to me. Look at the line-up we have:

Double Length Wagner Dredd with art by Alex Ronald in his glorious pen and ink phase
Double Length Robbie Morrison and Simon Fraser Dante
Double Length Dabnett and Staples Sinister Dexter
Double Length Alan Grant and Simon DAvis on B.L.A.I.R. 1

So yeah it a bit of an odd mix, but its more the way this specific comic exemplifies a phase. The three first thrill should offer so much - and to be frank they do... but... well they fact that they are all done in ones means none of them have the sense of scale all these strips are capable of. B.L.A.I.R. 1 is what its is and so we'll put that aside, but heck we have 30 pages of grade A thrill here ... and yet the forced theme 'True Brit' then sense that the comic still thinks it needs to be 'Loaded' when it could be so much more, just shows that for all the talent on display 2000ad is STILL struggling to find itself. And as I recall this will sustain for some time. We're going to have this sense that while so much is so right, something will be slightly off kilter... something won't be quite right...

... that's what I recall lets knuckle down to finding out shall we...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 February, 2019, 09:27:32 PM
So Prog 1091 is as good a Prog as any to discuss this I guess. Its been bubbling up for a while... though I guess its not that big a deal... but it niggles.

So the Prog - well it has a few nice little things worth mentioning too. Oola Blint returns to Dredd as Alex Ronald knocks it out the park with this really fun Wagner story. Speaking of Alex Ronald - well we would be next Prog - Missionary Man lands in the Prog and this prologue with Simon Davis very ably assisting Gordon 'Joy to the World' Rennie is so very welcome. One of my favs, so dark fun.

Oh and we get double Sinister Dexter with some glorious art by Greg Staples who makes this great strip look so damned sexy, so damned damned sexy.

Christ this Prog looks great - okay so I'm no fan of Slaine at this time and SteveTappin's art just does not do it for me - do 4 out of 5 strip look astoni...

...wait what... not it 3 out of 5 strip are a feast on the...

... no hold on that's not right. See Slaine aside there's only really one problem with this Prog and that is its another example of a creeping tread of late - in re-read terms - the 4 strip Prog. Now of course its clurish to complain when we make up for the lack of a fifth strip with a double length Sinister Dexter with art as great as it is here and I have to say its a bloody good story too so really I should have absolutely no complaints...

... but I miss it when there's not a fifth strip. Even a great Prog like this feels a little like its being cut short when we get the double lenght instead of the fifth. Now as the occasional threat to mark a relaunch Prog, now I'm fine with that, it feels fun and different. But here in early(ish) 1997 its becoming a bit to regular and I'm finding it a little irritating... even if in the cases of late its bloody lovely irritation.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 March, 2019, 08:58:19 PM
Well as we charge towards 1100 I few things have struck me...

1. Does Julian Gibson give Dredd the BIGGEST chin ever in Prog 1096? Its massive. By Prog 1097 he keeps touching it while in thought. Like he's self consious about it being quite so big

2. More B.L.A.I.R. 1 - bloody hell there was more of this nonsense than I expected!

3. Pulp Fiction seems to loose sight of its remit quickly. Best stories by the best artists... not in  1097 and 1098... I mean its not as if they make me miss Vector 13 or anything but...

4. In Prog 1099 Siku tries to top Gibson, he goes for breadth as well as lenght but he only fingers it once so I call it a miss - fun Dredd mind as he wonders up and down a block with no elevators all for a glorious pun at the end one feels.

5. Forgotten how early that Sinister Dexter 'origin' story appeared. I think I confused it with the later bullfighting one. This one is cute the other is great as I recall.

So to Prog 1100... a Slaine only episode in a period when I don't enjoy Slaine at all... hmmm...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 March, 2019, 09:27:56 PM
Prog 1100 - Lord of the Beasts

I'm not a fan of this Prog. A full length Prog story always feels a bit special as its such a novelty the trouble is the story has to be special to mean it doesn't feel like a let down. The story has to be bold and brave and confident as its got nothing else to back it up and a Prog thrill always has that back up. Here the story does and alas much like last time when it felt like the reason for the story was the driver, resolving the storyline that began with a prediction at the start of the Judge Child Quest. The result just didn't work, there was nothing left to cover.

Here I'm not sure why this story was demned special enough to dominate. To my mind Slaine has been on a sticky wicket for some time (and will be for some time to come as I recall). Maybe it was thought the lush art was enough... well the art might be lush but that doesn't mean its good and I don't get on with it finding it unclear and ugly. These things are ever subjective.

So for me this just doesn't deserve the attention it gains and is a waste of a Prog. I suspect some will disagree and at least as ever with the Prog the diversity of opinion will remain!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 10 March, 2019, 09:57:14 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 10 March, 2019, 09:27:56 PM
Prog 1100 - Lord of the Beasts

So for me this just doesn't deserve the attention it gains and is a waste of a Prog. I suspect some will disagree and at least as ever with the Prog the diversity of opinion will remain!

No argument from me — ISTR there was a lot to like about the art, and if this had been a four-partner running as normal, I'd probably be a lot better disposed towards it, but as it is, I'm not 100% sure I actually read this to the end...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 March, 2019, 07:51:56 AM
It came before we got to know it.

Well after a warm up Prog in 1101 with two double sized stories to set the scene - good ones I should note in Wagner + Ezquerra Dredd and Morrison and Fraser on Dante - we get a near perfect line-up in 1102 and 1103.

Get these strips:

Wagner and Ezquerra - Judge Dredd
Mazeworld - Grant and Ranson
Nikolai Dante - Morrison and Fraser
Sinister Dexter - Dabnett and Johnson and then Wigmore
Anderson - Grant and Hairsaine

Man that's strong and just goes to demonstrate while there is a bunch of misfires in this era, there is also a bunch of absolute gems. Okay so Alan Craddock's colouring messes up Hairsaine's art, but really that's a small beef...

... the bigger beef is that Anderson is only a teasing two-parter and next Prog we get Slaine back... though I seem to recall it has a mini return to form with the 'Lost Tales' or whatever they were called... lets see but we are definately at strong times if that's my biggest beef.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 March, 2019, 10:13:54 PM
Hey take it back - so okay this isn't the best Slaine its better than its been for a while and sure Paul Staples art isn't great but its servicable.

Wrap that up with the line-up mention below being blinding.

A great four part Sinister Dexter as Ramone thinks he might be a serial killer, but are his eyes decieving him ... a story that starts to develop Rocky and Tracey and their relationship with Finny and Ray. Julian Gibson's wonky inconsistent art aside its a blinder.

Add to that some of the finest Dredd in a sequel - of sorts - to The Pit, with the introduction of a gloriously messy Roffman, the fall of DeMarco and 'Beyond the Call of Duty' is just fantastic.

ADD TO THAT - one of the very best pre Tsar Wars Dantes with the heartrending and action packed Great Game, when the strip in some ways amazes by finding another gear to shift up...

ANNNNNDDDD... Mazeworld Book 2 being better than the first...

Wow Tharg that's some Thrillpower you have on the go for the middle of 1998. I don't remember the Prog sustaining this level for an extended period for some time to come BUT man these are high highs we've returned to and the lows are settled by the holy triumvant and 1998 is turning into the best for some time... still lets watch how the second half handles that mantal...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 March, 2019, 09:26:25 PM
All the Legs Eleven or four Kelly's Eyes - which a few hundred progs ago would have been more appropriate....

Annnywayyyy another in the now regular relaunch Progs. I think in the last couple of years we have pretty much set up the regularity for relaunch Progs that still last today and I've only just realised....

Annnnnnyyyyywayyyy 48 pages and only 4 stories and none of them a newbie, that's not a good return .... not that its a bad Prog. The Slaine isn't great and the Durham Red is fairly mundane BUT the Sinister Dexter is really strong and foreshadows Eurocrash which I think is coming up pretty soon....

Annnyyyyyywayyyy none of that us what I've here for, what I'm here for is to praise the Dredd - The Mega City Way of Death, its a beaut. As it weaves the tail of two star-crossed lovers, a rich socialite and a sky surfer and the cruels ways life in the Big Meg beast them down.

In some ways its similar to the Dredd in this week's (as I type - Prog 2123) Dredd which I'm not a fan of. In that its exposition heavy and plays on a tough and tradegic relationship to pull at the heart strings. The key difference is that Wagner and Staples here, admittedly with  4 extra pages, balance the exposition with some sharp, smart character work that just draws you in and means you care, so much, about what's happening in the exposition parts of the story. Its just a masterclass. As with this weeks story Dredd is a bit part, but because of that Wagner doesn't use him to drive the story, just to anchor as he moves through it. He's unnecessary here to, but Wagner uses that to his advantage.

Sorry I don't say this to beat down in this weeks story, rather to elevate the forgotten (by me) gem.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 March, 2019, 09:02:55 PM
So I really want to like Sancho Panzer, I really do. It looks great, the design is great, Dabnett is great... the strip just ain't alas. I don't hate it but I can't bring myself to actually like it either. Its tone is just kinda off and its does work.

Just like Vector 13 - I thought we were done with these Prog 1117 says otherwise alas.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 March, 2019, 09:48:48 PM
In the eye of the beholder - the art of Prog 1122

So as we get to the end of 1998 I don't think I've said as much as I might in other years and I'll come to that next time, as I sum up the year. One thing I have mentioned before is art and I want to return to that using Prog 1122, I'm guessing it could be almost any Prog this year.

As the Prog does continue to get better in 1998 (spoilers!) the art takes the baton from being very hit and miss and this really struck me in this particular thrill packed Prog.

The cover by John Charles introducing the Lawgiver Mark 2, while I see what he's going for OUCH that perspective hurts my eyes.

The Dredd that sees that story home introduces Paolo Parente (I think) and I'm not sure we see him much if at all after this. Is one of many sub-Bisley artists we continue to get, I could say this about Jason Brashill same strip next week. It just surprises me how long after 'Horned God' this stuff continued. Its technically... okay... its pushes at having energy, but I find it clumsy and awkward.

Which is a real shame as the story delighted me. I'd completely forgotten how Wagner introdcued the ideas and tension that would lead into 'Doomsday' so early and I'm so excited to read 'The Scorpion Dance' starting soon to build on all that.

Sinister Dexter has David Bircham and I think there's been quite enough said about Bircham's art. I find it difficult to look at and it just cuts away at the story via poor storytelling and murky impenetrable colouring. I could call it style over substance but I really, really don't like the style. Just goes to say though that Pat Mills clearly sees much in his art as he'll bring him on to do the next big Slaine story Secret Commonwealth, so what do I know!?!

Pulp Sci-Fi sees the introduction of Rose O'Rion a surprisingly flat creation by Kek-W. Its co-creator Andy Clarke on art that is of must interest here. See where as Bircham and Parente don't get too much chance to develop, at least in my eyeline and as I recall while Andy Clarke's art here is a little sharp and inflexible over the next few years Bishop has clearly seen something in him and he will become a joy on the eye. Something I wouldn't have predicted.

Sancho Panzer gives us one of the few things I think all 2000ad fans agree on Henry Flint is one of the absolute greats and we all love him. Even here in a lighter, looser earlier style he's magnificent and so easy on the eye, even when showing the horrific. His character's ating is so chasimatic in a way only folks like Carlos have matched, his design so good and his storytelling so simple and effective he is an absolute delight and for me miles ahead of the three who have gone before.

The thing I think other folks will see different here is that I don't think this can carry the strip. I adored the art, but the strip still feels flat and I find it a struggle to get through.

Missionary Man has art almost as good, and which in some ways I prefer. I've long sung the praises of Alex Ronald and here I also have to make special mention of genius colourist Gary Caldwell. I know others, including if I remember correctly the always smiling Gordon Rennie writer of this strip, don't engage with his style and its very devisive. I love it, even if Alex himself prefers he's lovely current computer painted style, I will always adore his inked work here.

So there we are five very different artists and I don't think we'll ever agree about them. 2000ad, even as it settles back into its groove will still find something to divide fan opinion and long may it remain the case.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 March, 2019, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 02 February, 2019, 07:44:07 AM
As for my predictions for 1998 - I'm really looking forward to it. 2 to 3 good thrills per Prog all of which are some of my favourite all times thrills can't be bad and some choas surrounding it to keep me on my toes. If we could just keep Slaine in the quiet I'd be loving this!

Well wasn't far off there at all. 1998 was a great year in thrillpower. As I didn't do last year I'll look at the middle ground to find evidence of this and frankly there's not much of it. We'll go Slaine, specifically as the 'Lost Years' pulls it up from its nadir (which might not actually be a nadir we'll see when we get to Secret Commonwealth). I think we'll put Durham Red in there as well as Mark Harrison's storytelling really lets it down.

Not much there, so what are the extremes then.

Well at the bottom its pretty shallow pickings as well. B.L.A.I.R. 1 makes an unnecessary and but thankfully short return. Pulp Sci-Fi just doesn't live up to its promise and Sancho Panzer, though looking great is just bland. Can't think of much else that was that bad.

Top of the table. Well we have a year of Wagner Dredd, Nikolia Dante really stretching it leg and to develop to levels not seen since its opening story, with in 'The Great Game' we have one of the best pre-Tsar Wars tales. Sinister Dexter is now in (almost) full pomp. I love the series of short stories that have dominated this year. There's a couple of really nice 4 to 6 parters as well. For me the series really hits top form with Eurocrash but its bloomin' good, I mean really good in '98.

What's more heartening is that these three giants of the Galaxy's Greatest aren't alone. They are ably backed up by Mazeworld, an Anderson cameo and personal favourite Missionary Man that really is on blinding form as it lands in the Prog from the Meg.

A slight annoyance is that we get some many extended stories, 10 pages thrown in with gay abandon and even two, yes two full Prog stories, neither of which is much kop. Still the double lenghts slipping the extra size in willy nilly is hard to begrudge too much when more often than not its either Dredd, Dante or S&D, though it is beginning to feel a bit of a crutch.

On the whole however 1998 is a year to be celebrated. The best in almost a decade ... in fact there's a strong case to for it being the best since 1987... if I was less lazy I'd check that and think it through a bit better... as it is lets leave it as a vague guess and salute the 2000ad year of 1998. The year that Tharg really started to get his act together again. It won't be plain sailing from here I suspect, but we're well past the worse. Bishop has a firm grip on the tiller and seems to know what course to steer through any choppy patches. it all looks good for 1999 and by the end I expect to be in for a bumper treat with some real highs on the way.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 April, 2019, 09:17:32 PM
Well 1999 starts really nicely. First four episodes have a few weak Pulp Sci-Fi's that never really live up to the promise but aside from that we get double Sinister Dexter (including introduction of Downlode Tales), good Dante and brilliant Dredd. Can't complain. Its intesting the issues I've just read included 1126 and I've just read 2126 so I've now 1000 issues to go.

What actually makes that fascinating is the quality is so good and I'm not sure we'll get much of a dip for 1000 issues ... 1000 chuffin' issues. Oh there will be absolute highs and the odd bump biut 1000s issues ago the quality was already consistantly good.

That's pretty astonishing when you think about it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 08 April, 2019, 03:53:40 AM
How does Downlode Tales fits into Sinister Dexter ? I have read a few in the Meg but it felt like Sinister Dexter continuing with a new name
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 April, 2019, 06:13:00 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 08 April, 2019, 03:53:40 AM
How does Downlode Tales fits into Sinister Dexter ? I have read a few in the Meg but it felt like Sinister Dexter continuing with a new name

Yeah basically that's it. These early ones - pre-Eurocrash - are simply tales set in Sinister Dexter's world but not featuring the two gunsharks themselves.

The later series deals with the fall out of Eurocrash - which I'll not spoil until I get to that part of the re-read - though I've just started it. The fact they are apparently missed out of reprints is a mystery to me!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 08 April, 2019, 02:26:42 PM
Thank You Colin. Another question, is Eurocrash one of the best Sinister Dexter stories ? So if its collected, should I try to get it ?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 April, 2019, 08:17:28 PM
Eurocrash is a masterpiece ... but not the best I think. There is better to come and I think it benefits from having some history with the strip as it adds to the emotional impact... though I reserve the right to change my mind on this re-read. Some thoughts from last time I read it.

https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/sinister-dexter-has-the-series-crashed-and-burnt/ (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/sinister-dexter-has-the-series-crashed-and-burnt/)

WARNING HERE BE SPOILERS ....I suspect I've not read it again but scanning through I seem to mark where they start? Read with caution.

That said its collected I believe, though seems to be finally out of stock - you used to be able to buy iy for bobbins? I think it might be part of the Ultimate Collection?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 09 April, 2019, 03:47:32 AM
Thanks Colin I will read the  blog entry.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2019, 09:19:30 PM
Dredd - Scorpion Dance

There's so much to like about this story. For a start the John Burn art is stunning. The development of the Roffman, DeMarco story is good. Dredd vs Edgar is always a delight. I adore the way Volt stands up to Dredd. ...

... its just the whole Vitus Dance escape and subsequent mischief feels one layer too many for me. It feels a bit like John Wagner had created this villian, set up his importance... then decided he didn't really want to use him so offed him. All be it with a big exciting schebang, just not one that really added anything. Well except kinda leveling up Narcos.

Shame as everything that lead to this had been so much fun and as I say there's much to love here... but its just not quite all working for me.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 11 April, 2019, 02:48:16 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 07 April, 2019, 09:17:32 PM
hat actually makes that fascinating is the quality is so good and I'm not sure we'll get much of a dip for 1000 issues ... 1000 chuffin' issues. Oh there will be absolute highs and the odd bump biut 1000s issues ago the quality was already consistantly good.

That's pretty astonishing when you think about it.

It is! I hadn't thought it about like that until you posted this.

The comic was on a pretty solid footing again by '98/'99 and although we have occasional periods when there's an alignment of strips no one seems to get excited about and everyone moans about the state of the prog, they rarely last more than a few weeks.

We haven't had an honest-to-god bad year in at least twenty years. Remarkable, and a fairly staggering achievement by Matt Smith and Tharg's other helpers in the Command Module.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 April, 2019, 08:13:50 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 April, 2019, 02:48:16 PM
We haven't had an honest-to-god bad year in at least twenty years. Remarkable, and a fairly staggering achievement by Matt Smith and Tharg's other helpers in the Command Module.

Yeah that sums it up nicely. I completely sympathise with folks who say the Prog isn't for them any more and they drift away as its not ringing their bell. That's completely cool, folks have different opinions, the things they like and look for from what they are reading changes. All of that is fine and all if that is a good reason to move on from the Prog. But its them its not the Prog.

Damnit when you have 2000+ of the buggers you might just have reached the oversaturation point of your thrill-buffers and simply have too much 2000ad. I know Mr Muffett the caretaker at my kids school hit that.

The thing is I find it hard it sustain an argument that its 'cos the Prog is objectively bad, or any worse than its been in its history, that just isn't the case. Which is a weird thing to say as one man's bad is another man pick of the pops. But really if you look at the quality of the story telling or the art now, across a year of Progs its fluculated, but not really signifcantly varied - except for a few peaks, rather than troughs - for 20 chuffin' year, 1000 Progs of 27,000ish pages of comics...

... that must take some doing when you think about it and is testament to the anthology format, the flexability of the content and the stable of creators and production Droids that have contributed.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 April, 2019, 09:22:54 PM
So its cleaer that Eurocrash holds up to repeated reads. This must be the third time I've read it since first doing say maybe 10 years or so ago and time and agia its works a treat. I've linked to the last time I gave a link to my thoughts on this below and frankly they've not changed.

Neither has my thoughts on Nikolai Dante. I suspected, as I came into this third (at least) read again in ten years that I'd find these earlier stories a little predestian. That as they were building the word, and fleshing out characters they won't sustain the impact of the post Tsar War material when the world's built and the characters fleshed out here go through so much. But then you read the first story and the Great Game and so many others including the delights of early 1999, 'Masque of Dante', 'The Moveable Feast', 'Tour of Duty' and 'The Cadre Infernal' all brilliant and collectively showing the breadth of Dante.  Then you get to 'Hunting Party' and in the first part alone, all be it double length as Dante and family enjoy a hunting trip in the snow set upon by Sinister Dexter and Slaine we I get that full scope in a wonderful 10 pages. Its a personal favourite Dante tale.

So while Mercy Heights once again fails to met its potential - it really worked best when it was a hospital soap in space, with war and murder just there to add Holby Cityeque favour. shame. We are in heady times indeed.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 April, 2019, 11:43:11 AM
interesting to note... well I say interesting that all about perspective so.... interesting, to me at least, to note how much info was in the 'Thrills of the Future' supplement. Now this came with Prog 1139 cover date 7th April. So lets image (I have not idea) this had to be in place and ready to go end February, early March.

Now I'm sure not everything I'll read over the next 7 1/2 months (re-read time) will be covered in here  - but it does feel pretty comprehensive. Its missing details of both Dante) though it does hint enough at what's to come to suggest that they had this largely bolted down for Courtship into Tsar Wars which starts in Prog 2000ad (right?). It also skips Sinister Dexter in Downlode Tales - but that I guess is for story reason as readers didn't know what to expect at this point. Aside from that though we get


Add Dante and Downlode and I don't expect they'll be too many other thrills to come in 1999 - which speaks a lot of the quality to come!

We even get some pretty spot on details for Prog 2000ad and a few thrills after that in Glimmer Rats and Slaine The Secret Commonwealth (ouch that preview art!). The only misses I spot is clearly it was still hoped that not knowing who will do the art in Slaine in that Prog (is there a Slaine story in there - I don't remember) and still thinking Simon Fraser will start Tsar Wars which we know gets lost in the mix and the mighty John M Burn steps in, possibly the greatest fill-in job of all time!

Anyway why is this interesting. Well firstly as mentioned earlier it speaks to the quality of the Prog to come. Secondly it shows how Tharg has been able to re-build a steady roster of creative talent so that he an line things up for almost an entire year. Third it explains how the transistion between Bishop and Diggle happened and the move to Oxford (that happens during this period right?) as Bishop slowly moved off the comic - it was all set to go!

Funny how the clearest sign of quite the rude health of The Galaxy's Greatest is 16 page supplement. No wonder Tharg looks so proud on the cover!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 April, 2019, 12:07:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 14 April, 2019, 11:43:11 AM
Third it explains how the transistion between Bishop and Diggle happened and the move to Oxford (that happens during this period right?) as Bishop slowly moved off the comic - it was all set to go!

According to Wikipedia, Andy took over as Tharg around prog 1200 (these things are always a bit fuzzy due to lead times). I know that the Rebellion deal was finalised more or less on the same day that Andy took over. The plan was for the editorial office to move to Oxford straight away, but (again, from fuzzy memory) Andy had literally just got a mortgage on a London property and The Powers That Be held off on the office move for about a year (?) and the editorial team moved out of the Egmont Fleetway offices to smaller (cheaper) office space elsewhere in Ole Lunnun Tahn.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 April, 2019, 12:31:48 PM
I really need to check this stuff in Thrillpower Overload before spouting!

In my head I have it as Andy D taking over from Prog 2000ad but me and my memory! Now you mention to two moves that also rings a lot of bells... think safe to say there was a lot happening at the time regardless of the specifics.

Thanks for the insights (or at least just checkin') as ever Jim.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 April, 2019, 12:50:55 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 14 April, 2019, 12:31:48 PM
I really need to check this stuff in Thrillpower Overload before spouting!

I'm only going on what I can remember — always a risky business!

Now that you say that, in my head I also had the whole Diggle/Rebellion thing tied up with the end-of-1999 Prog 2000, but a quick google says the Rebellion announced the takeover in early July 2000 (https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/i_rebellion)... so whilst the deal may well have been in the offing, or even well advanced, or possibly done and dusted by the end of '99 but held back to tie up with one or more party's accounting periods, it definitely wasn't official until 6th July 2000, which is when the press release was issued.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 April, 2019, 09:50:33 PM
So we come crashing in to Prog 1150 and things might not be quite as rosie as the start of the year. A few quick(ish) thoughts

1. Pulp-Sci aren't a complete bust in the way Vector 13 was, but its pretty sketchy and the hits are far less frequent than the misses.

2. The second long form Mercy Heights has all the worst features of the first, but none of the redemining ones. By its end in Prog 1149 I'm barely reading it.

3. Orlok's return and subsequent capture of Dredd is pretty well put together and looks great with Cam Kennedy's art...

4... But what was Anderson thinking?

5. The Ball's Brothers being a superpowered various of 'Bottom' must have seemed like a good idea...

6. ...in reality all it does is reveal that what works in one medium, doesn't work as well in another. The anarchic violent slapstick that works better (I'm not 'Bottom's biggest fan) on TV doesn't really work in comic form.

7. So all Ball Brothers leaves us with therefore is flat one dimensional characters and cliche without the humour of the slapstick really surviving.

8. Downlobe Tales works a treat and gets away with some character twists and turns that really it shouldn't work...

9. ...yet somehow it does, its great stuff...

10. Though shoulders still get a right old shootin'

11. I'm always surprised by Simon Davis' art in pen and ink, but it works pretty well as Dredd comes to 'The Trial' as Orlok brings him before the remaining East Meg Oners to account for his crimes.

12. Charlie Adlard's colours are a little dark, which almost works for the tone of the piece, but not quite.

13. I'm also always surprised by the fact that we get John Burns' art on Nikolai Dante before 'Tsar Wars' starts but we get his brilliant debut in Prog 1148 on 'Cruel Seas' a fantastic two-part that sees Dante met his mum again and save some folks  sold as slaves from Rudinshtein. A story that really effectively foreshadows the dark times to come and the responsibilities that Dante will be learning.

14. I do however remember how fantastic Callum R Watt's art is on Downlode Tales. Alas I think it might be the last time he's in the Prog, which is a real shame.

15. The prologue for Delvin Waugh: Chasing Herod in Prog 1149 sets up what I recall is one of my favourite thrills of this period and I'm excited to be reading it again soon.

Sorry that was quite a few short things to say, but with Doomsday, Chasing Herod, Downlode Tales and The Courtship of Jena Makarov to come I suspect I'll be having a lot more to say about the second half of 1999.... though I might finish my re-read of Grant + Breyfogle's Batman before kicking off with this very exciting time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 May, 2019, 09:20:03 PM
I think I'll have more to say about this as I review the year but starting the second half of 1999 I'm struck by how much the Prog feels like the Prog. By which I mean the tone in 1999, almost exactly 20 years ago, feels just like the Prog now. There's all sorts of variance when you look at, but over all its the modern Prog.

So I guess 2000ad goes like this - with little thought or editing this is gut take for future reference and consideration

1977 - 1980 = forming
1980 - 1988 = Classic old skool period
1989 - 1996 = Awkward rocky growing pains
1997 - 1998 = recovery
1999 - present = modern Prog

Oh and Prog 1154 - the art on the Doomsday has been great in the whole its been chopping and changing too much - But then we get Mike McMahon strutting his stuff for a cameo - wow I'd forgotten all about that!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 11 May, 2019, 04:21:05 AM
What about:

1999 - present = start of the modern period
2010 - present = stabilization period
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 May, 2019, 06:45:20 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 11 May, 2019, 04:21:05 AM
What about:

1999 - present = start of the modern period
2010 - present = stabilization period

Its very possible we'll find out. It might also go.

1999 - 2009 = Modern Period
2010 - discuss = golden period.

This may well be refined as we go.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 May, 2019, 09:15:03 PM
What need not be refined is my opinion on Chasing Herod . I mean given that John Smith and Steve Yeowell are two if my all time fav comic creators, let alone 2000ad creators how can it go wrong, well Pussyfoot Five will show us comics can be as unpredictable as European semi-finals, and in this one they certainly don't put a foot wrong.

I know that Zenith is considered 2000ad's great super-hero epic. but the three story arch, Chasing Herod, Reign of Frogs and Sirius Rising I've always considered the true super-hero epic in twooth.... well okay the other great super-hero epic. Its structured so like loys of the great stories and particular Moore's Captain Britain. In Chasin Herod we get a squad of heroes assembled, villians are lined up and the great threat destroys our hero just as the Fury does. I've not even got to the end of this story and these two master craftsmen have started to crank up the tension to an early crescendo and then we crash back down, only to see things quickly build again as Eddie Whyteman and Jack of Knives join the tale.

Just one of my all time favourite 2000ad stories and we're not even 1/3 of the way through yet.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 12 May, 2019, 10:32:10 PM
I'm not sure exactly when it started but I do think we are in a new golden age. If pushed I would say it started with Day of Chaos and Trifecta.

As to 2000AD's greatest super hero story...well there aren't many to chose from are there?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 May, 2019, 09:09:53 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 12 May, 2019, 10:32:10 PM
I'm not sure exactly when it started but I do think we are in a new golden age. If pushed I would say it started with Day of Chaos and Trifecta.

As to 2000AD's greatest super hero story...well there aren't many to chose from are there?

Golden Periods aer slippy and personal things. I personally have always said that the lastest Golden period started with the Zombo Cradlegrave combo and ended with Dante... possibly

ANYWAY that's for a much later day. For today we need to reflect on how 1999 can stake a claim for the start of a golden period... okay that might be over stating it BUT as two epics start to wind down in Doomsday and Downlode Tales, each of which I'll talk about more at their respective conclusions I'm sure, one continues in Reign of Frogs and another starts in Courtship of Jena Makarov...

... trying to rank this year amongst the greatest ever is certainly going to make for interesting times...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Magnetica on 14 May, 2019, 06:11:09 AM
For me Doomsday falls short of being in the top tier of Dredd epics. It has some nice elements for sure and some of the build up was great e.g the Scorpion Dance and the DeMarco stuff, but the ultimate take down of Nero Narcos had a bit of a seen it all before feel to it IMO.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 May, 2019, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 May, 2019, 06:11:09 AM
For me Doomsday falls short of being in the top tier of Dredd epics. It has some nice elements for sure and some of the build up was great e.g the Scorpion Dance and the DeMarco stuff, but the ultimate take down of Nero Narcos had a bit of a seen it all before feel to it IMO.

Sticking to my Prog read purity is frustrating, as I really like Doomsday when read as a whole. It fleshes things out and adds to the piece. Read in just Prog form its a little too lean. Though I do like the Nero Narcos come down... though still to read it this time. I like the fact that he's just a mob boss done good and when he wins - unlike say Death, Cal or East Meg, they all had a plan, an aim,  I really like the way Narcos sits there and goes ... "Well bugger... this wasn't as good as I hoped... what now..."

He's like that person in many companies who get promoted beyind their capability and then just sits there a bit lost in my eyes.

Anyway actually came here to quickly say while I really like Mazeworld as a whole Book 3 always reads a bit rushed to me. Nothing really has time to stretch and its too compact. Shame as overall its rip snorting stuff and I do enjoy Book 3, just feels a little short on it potential.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 May, 2019, 06:22:22 AM
Downlobe Tales

Came to an end in Prog 1168 with an amusing, and important, epilogue. The tale of our gunshark duo, torn apart and made enemies by the events at the end of 'Eurocrash' still hold up wonderfully. I looked back at my thought from 7ish years ago when I last read this and they still hold.

Quote...Anyway all that said 'Downlode Tales' is many things, but what it is first and foremost is damned fine comics, crafted perfectly in the 2000ad mold. The art across the piece, from the likes of Greg Staples, Chris Weston (doing some of my favourite work of his, as it goes), Paul Johnson and of course the ever wonderful Simon Davis, is uniformly excellent. The story, as mentioned is crammed full, high energy and engaging. Its seat of the pants stuff and utterly enjoyable.

It also marks the start of what is arguably the 'Golden Age' of Sinister Dexter. Those Golden times are to be discussed over the next few posts.

There more if you need it from those old writes I did back in the day.

https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/sinister-dexter-split-the-difference/ (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/sinister-dexter-split-the-difference/)

Or spare yourself the time and come back next time as Nemesis has joined us as 1999 comes to a spectacular end.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 May, 2019, 09:06:55 PM
Cover of 1165

Meant to say.

So this is a panel from a little later repurposed right. I mean gosh its bloomin' magnificent and all. Its just goes to show the frankly eye wateringly beautiful power of the art that Flint, Henry produces in Nemesis Book 10. Though a panel it works perfectly as a cover.

Unlike the curious choice for Prog 1076, a blown up panel of Anderson that to my eye wasn't a great panel and suffered further for being blown up to fit the cover. To my mind probably the only other time this has happened (I'm probably wrong there aren't I).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 May, 2019, 09:07:59 PM
Damned that edit goes fast these days!

Anyway Prog 3 shows me to be wrong doesn't it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 May, 2019, 09:36:35 PM
Progs 1172||3

So we get to the end of 1999 (well almost I'll come back to that) and three big stories finish (well almost I'll come back to that). 1999 has been a year of epics and so it seems fitting to end (almost I'll... you get it right) talking about three more.

The only one that disappoints is Nemesis Book 10. Checked back to the (first and) last time (I think) I read this about 9 years ago and was surprised my opinion hadn't changed. I felt it looked great, but the story flip flapped a little. But since I agree with what I said in the past and I'm very lazy here comes an arrogant self quote.

QuoteWell if you're going to wrap up a series known for its striking art throughout you might as well do it with the beautiful work of Henry Flint. Nemesis Book X has so many things going for it but the art is truly the star of the show. Ok there are a few too many panels directly honouring Kevin O'Neil's work but that's nit picking. It's a testament to how fantastic the art is that in the final part Kevin O'Neil's more recent looser style is a disappointment, compared to what has gone before. I particularly liked the way he threw in some tiny action panels in one episode to allow room for a grotesque massive splash which I took to be a hats off to John Hicklenton 

As for the story... well I just can't make my mind up. When thinking about it, it had everything the final book of Nemesis should have. It felt epic in scale, the two central characters were as beautifully hideous as they ever are, everything was wrapped up after appropriate amounts of anarchy, mayhem and violence and the ending was fittingly horrendous. Yet somehow it didn't quite do it, it didn't quite manage to be the sum of its parts.  Maybe it felt a little like Mills was going through the motions and wrapping up everything that had gone before by going back to how it was at the beginning. The trouble for me is the great thing about Nemesis is that it'd always moved on and tried different things. Still that said it certainly wasn't bad and by the end I was satisfied if not quite as elated as I'd hoped.

If my opinion of Nemesis Book 10 hasn't changed then neither has my opinion of Nikolai Dante's Courtship of Jena Makarov and Devlin Waugh - Chasing Herod / Reign of Frogs / Sirius Rising both are just wonderful epics and the very best example of the series / creators.

Courtship shows that even though Dante started pretty fantastically, seemingly perfectly formed, it still had room to grow and develop and Courtship marks the end of that. Its a wonderful testament to the brilliant series that's gone before and a perfect signpost to the even better to come. Courtship is transition, a statement. Dante is ready for Tsar Wars and the shift that will bring. Its brilliant in its own right, but all the more so as a curtain to what's been and a herald for what's to come.

Then we have Chasing frogs rising a John Smith classic. Its not typical Smith, yet it is. Its not a superhero epic, yet its one of two great superhero epics 2000ad has done. Smith is rarely typical 2000ad, but this proves just how typical 2000ad he is. John Smith is a much missed genius in our pages and here he shows that he can sustain that wonder, excitment, tension without pretension (whatever some say) over a 6 month, yes 6 month continous stretch... and in that its remiss not to hail Steve Yeowell for not dropping a beat from his normally 2000ad majesty during that time ... By golly gosh I do love this one and have to say both Courtship and Herod reign Sirius absolutely nail their respective landings.

As for Nemesis Book 10... well I can't tell ya yet cos I'm about to read Prog 2000ad.... which frankly is going to start a trend in me being a grumpy chuff for no real good reason. Cos of course these end of year Progs fall firmly in the year before YET not only end the year gone but also and increasingly start the year to come. For a man doing a year  by year re-read that's a bit annoying.

I thought I'd get my childish quibble out the way before talking about this lovely next time. See ya tomorrow...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: DrJomster on 21 May, 2019, 09:41:16 PM
That run of Devlin Waugh is amazing work, I have to agree. Well worth picking up the collected editions if you don't have them already, good people!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 21 May, 2019, 10:40:28 PM
Nemesis book X is a disappointment? Ach. I'm sure that's relative, but I had been looking forward to the later Nemesis. If Flint does his part but the tale falls short, that's no great surprise.
Still, got the Hicklenton stuff to reread before that - in the UC - and at the time I LOVED that...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 22 May, 2019, 07:24:53 AM
There are some great moments in Bk X - Pat is always careful to give Torquemada as many triumphs as humiliations - but Torque's final 'ultimate weapon' seems totally at odds with the character. Torquemada can be monstrously hypocritical, but he genuinely and completely believes aliens are the enemy - to suggest it's just a means to gain or keep power puts him on the same level as someone like Mazarin or the Arch-Bigot, and makes him a lot duller.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2019, 07:42:01 AM
Self absorbed re-evaluation 01

I pause my normal ramblings to start a series of ... well probably one... as I look back at things I said here with fresh eyes given fresh information. And this mornings topics is Shadows and Richard Elson.

QuoteAll this a beautiful language to do it with and art from Richard Elson that ... well is most notable for being UN(added cos I can't type to save my life!)recognisable as Richard Elson as we'll come to know him

I've been listening to the Thrillcast with Richard Elson this morning on the way to work and now having listened to Mr Elson (what a lovely sounding chap) talk about the problems he had producing this - the colour being added at the last minute etc etc and the grief he got from it I'd just like to say its now apparent why this looks the way its does and I'm sorry the not understanding the challenge and why it looks the way it does.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2019, 09:47:10 PM
Quote from: DrJomster on 21 May, 2019, 09:41:16 PM
That run of Devlin Waugh is amazing work, I have to agree. Well worth picking up the collected editions if you don't have them already, good people!

Yes - this, buy it.

Quote from: Fungus on 21 May, 2019, 10:40:28 PM
Nemesis book X is a disappointment? Ach. I'm sure that's relative, ...

Well yes it is and without spoiling tomorrow's post I really like the actual ending, except...

Quote from: Greg M. on 22 May, 2019, 07:24:53 AM
...Torque's final 'ultimate weapon' seems totally at odds with the character. Torquemada can be monstrously hypocritical, but he genuinely and completely believes aliens are the enemy - to suggest it's just a means to gain or keep power puts him on the same level as someone like Mazarin or the Arch-Bigot, and makes him a lot duller.

Its more his reason for not using it... but I can ahnd way that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 May, 2019, 09:55:16 PM
Prog 2000ad

So I've whined below about how inconvenient these end of year Progs are going to be when it comes to my yearly read... but its interesting to note how little Prog 2000ad actually does interfere. Its such a celebration that very little of the content rolls inwards from the previous runs, or outwards to 2000's Progs. To be honest this is almost a problem as it means that just about all the stories are sharp little done in one tributes and in theory they don't get much traction.

However this does only kinda holds when you look at them one at a time.

Dredd 1: Wagner and McMahon a decent done in one with superb art.

Rogue Trooper: Tomlinson and Gibbons hint at ties to come (though these might be best ignored) its a decent little recap.

ABC Warriors: Mills and Walker a fun little violent burst, but not much substance.

Nikolai Dante: Morrison and Fraser in a stunning prologue to Tsar Wars, tight, emotional and bitter. Just superb.

Slaine: Mills and Staples... well it looks great...

Sinister Dexter: Dabnett and Davis a fantastic epilogue to Downlode Tales.

Dredd 2: Grant and Kennedy in a really fun tribute to one Mr J Wagner.

Stuff coming in from before is the final part to Nemesis and as discussed below I can forgive it a couple of things as its very ending is so perfectly grotesque and fitting for this great amongst the greats.

Glimmer Rats is a dud for me as frankly it suffers significently from Mark Harrison's issues with story clarity, that do hamper his work of this period.

Strontium Dog sees two masters at the peak of their craft. The narrative trick at the start are relating what we are to see as the truth behind the previous mythical telling of Johnny's life is just stone cold brilliant. Means we get a reboot without a reboot. Everything can stay the same, just we get enough of a door open to allow us to be free from assumptions or trapped by whats gone before. Adore this one.

So yeah its not quite the glorious uber Prog I remember, but with so much good stuff, some lovely filler and such a sense of celebration it is a thing of wonder... just I seem to recall its gets done a little better a few times in the future... we'll see.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 May, 2019, 03:00:34 PM
Tharg is going to Thrill you like its 1999.

I think I'm going to have a tough decision to make by the end of this post, lets see... Before we get to that lets see how my predictions for 1999 after reading 1998 hold up.

Quote...1998. The year that Tharg really started to get his act together again. It won't be plain sailing from here I suspect, but we're well past the worse. Bishop has a firm grip on the tiller and seems to know what course to steer through any choppy patches. it all looks good for 1999 and by the end I expect to be in for a bumper treat with some real highs on the way.

Well that definity holds true and then some. 1999 is a magnificent year and see David Bishop now armed with Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante on full power being able to produce the comic as it needs to be. Its a different beast from what it was, but its got through those uncomfortable changes and just as I start my professional career in Librarianship and start to settle my life down, so 2000ad realises what it needed to become and starts to get on with being itself for the next 20ish years. Sure its a different self to what it was, but by George its fitter healthier and happier than its been in years*

The only real question I have is one I didn't think I'd be asking again this soon. Is this the best year in thrillpower to date? And you know what I think I'm going to surprise myself with the answer. Prior to this I had 1986 crowned, with indecision being the only thing stopping 1987 taking that crown. And I will say I think Dredd, great as it is in 1999 - I do like Doomsday - isn't as good as the glory days of 1986, possibly on a par with 1987... yeah that might be about right.

Anyway so if the year isn't picked up by Dredd alone what backs him up. Well just take a gander at this list.

Sinister Dexter - Eurocrash
Nikolai Dante - Hunting Party**
Downlode Tales
Devlin Waugh - Chasing Froggie Sirius
Nikolai Dante - Courtship of Jena Makarov

Each one of those is a stonecold classic in my eyes, Absolutely top thrillage. Okay there's some stinkers - Mercy Heights is very poor, Rose O'Rion sub-Smithsian poppycock and Pulp Sci-Fi if not absolutely rubbish rarely lives up to its billing. BUT there is strong middle ground, if not much of it, with Mazeworld and Nemesis Book X are both great, if not quite in the class as those listed above and Dredd.

All topped off with a bumper-sized end of year Prog worthy of the old annuals at their best.

So yeah I'm going to call it now and regret at my leisure 1999 has been the best year in thrillpower to date. I'll repeat that in case you don't believe the words I'm saying. 1999 is Tharg's finest to date.

Now I'm a little concerned 2000 won't quite sustain these levels. Andy D sends his letter, soon as he steps up to the plate and I have significent issues with his tenor. I don't think he takes over officially until 1/2 through next year, but from putting the Progs in order ahead of reading them I see the marks of his philosophy write large. It wouldn't be bad, but it certainly won't be the saving of the Prog David Bishop has done that already.

*Here I should say this bares no relationship with my life in 1999 I'm still into a lot of things and far from healthy, but I am getting back on track at least! - FONT-SIZE = normal

** Indicative - I could have selected any number of the Dante shorts from this time, this one just happens to be my favourite - FONT-SIZE = normal
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 May, 2019, 09:08:21 PM
So we enter 2000ad with 2000ad and its still called 2000ad so we have that old gem of a question answered.

The firstline up of the new millenium*

The main problem as we enter this bold new age is we're 25% down on thrills. 2000 starts with a solid 4 thrill line up, but alas that's a shame. 2000ad's greatest strength will always be its variety and scope. The very best Progs have great breadth as well as depth. Having the odd prog have a double length story is fine and fun, but to open up after what I guess will have been a crowd pulling bumper Prog 2000ad with a thrill short doesn't show the Galaxy's greatest at its greatest.

Made worse by the fact that Glimmer Rats has its story mared by Mark Harrison's poor storytelling. He's developed into a great artist, but by this stage he's not at his best and I really struggle to know whose doing what to whom. There's very possibly a great story under it all, by Gordon Rennie, though it may be a bit to grim dark and intense to work.

The rest of the Prog is pretty decent. While Alan Grant might not be on top form with his Dredd's there his run of one parters into 2000 are an interesting contrast to the Wagner stories we're had of late. A sharper, harder take, though all have a decent sting in the tale.

Grennie (who has 3/5s of the Prog its worth noting) and Alex Ronald's Missionary Man is the story that covers the gap in the thrillage and I do love it. Its another journey through The Cursed Earth, however it makes for such a rich source of story there's nothing wrong with that.

The highlight of the Prog though is Wagner and Ezquerra back on Strontium Dog, so fresh and so familar. Just fantastic stuff.

So its a solid line-up as we burst forth into the new millenium (*pedants few free to question that, but I think we're moved on?) just not quite as wonderful as we might have hoped.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
Prog 1181

By 1181 things are already looking up. Alan Grant continues to write great Dredd with some interesting art. Missionary Man is back to normal size and is great and I really enjoy Badlands. Now since I last discussed that strip a good few years ago and learnt of its origin and therefore odd size I'm still inclined to say its a shame there wasn't more of it. Even if I now know why.

Okay so Glimmer Rats still has the same problems.

The reason I've picked this issue is that it has a lovely Sinister Dexter. A fantastic one parter that uses that tried and true Sinister Dexter format of fixed view point, in this case on a stake out in a high rise, and its all about simple interaction. Just a delight. Was this the first time they did this? I means I should know I've just read them all recently but head like a sieve me. I can think of a similar story with them sat in the Edsel but was that before or after? Oh well either way this was a wonderful strip.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2019, 09:18:46 PM
Oh and meant to add the next prog box in Prog 1182 made clear this like purple patch might not last and we could be back to a mixed bag soon. Some great stuff, and I do mean great stuff, coming but some stinkers on the way too... lets see...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 June, 2019, 09:19:03 PM
Prog 1183 - Secret War

Now of course I could have gone Tsar Commonwealth - it would have meant as much but this way I can pretend I'm going for some kinda super smart comparison to various Marvel event nonsense... I'm not I'm just mushing too titles I'm comparing together... still we can pretend there more to it if we like huh.

Anyway Prog 1183 has two stories return with 'big' storylines and they couldn't be more different. Secret Commonwealth sees Slaine return to Ireland and its not very good. It might not be as bad a it first appears but frankly David Bircham's art is all its remembered for. Murky and unclear, both in style and stroytelling. Its hard in the eye to be honest. Its doesn't however mask a good story. Slaine re-introduction lacks any real power or impact. Uncle Pats story doesn't do much and lacks in any real character, guile or wit.

Nikolai Dante's return in Tsar Wars is also everything its remembered for, but for all the right reasons. John Burns art is viseral, clear and gritty. Its ugly and power as needed and carries the emotion of Robbie Morrison story just perfectly. The story is injected with all the things that Uncle Pat's lacks. In just six pages, two a double page spread, and what a classic double page spread, achieves so much. The battle of Tolsburg is brilliantly and brutally realised. It doesn't stop there. We see the change in Dante after recent (in re-read time) events we meet Dmitri and Dante and his dad's relationship is perfectly presented, all be it with more deferance in our changed lead. Morrison and Burn set up the situation and even raise the stakes and give use an ending that is so much more than 'I'll give ya a scrap for this dwarf you don't even know' as we get in Slaine.

Oh and in barely 7 or so panels the character introduced here to demonstrate Dante in the way the dwarf (not Ukko) is used to show Slaine's is given so much and serves the presentation if Dante so well. This is comics perfection.

So yeah two hyped returns and so very very different.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 13 June, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
Well gosh dammit if you don't make a compelling case for 1999 as 2000AD's best year, even though I'd never have picked it out just from an off-the-top-of-my-head sample. I was going to criticise it for not having enough variety of thrills, but frankly that's exactly what the old Golden Age was like, and that surely suffered from the long, slow and steady decline of Rogue Trooper.

Nikolai Dante and Sinister Dexter are both very good, aren't they, even if for entirely different reasons. I do think there's a case to be made that the one-off funny SinDex episodes were better than the one-off funny Dredds - and typically had more interesting art - in this period, anyway.

You know, if you're looking for controversial opinions on this thread.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 June, 2019, 06:28:21 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 13 June, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
Well gosh dammit if you don't make a compelling case for 1999 as 2000AD's best year, even though I'd never have picked it out just from an off-the-top-of-my-head sample.

You know I was surprised myself and just like you would never have pulled it out the air.

Quote from: AlexF on 13 June, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
Nikolai Dante and Sinister Dexter are both very good, aren't they, even if for entirely different reasons. I do think there's a case to be made that the one-off funny SinDex episodes were better than the one-off funny Dredds - and typically had more interesting art - in this period, anyway.

You know, if you're looking for controversial opinions on this thread.

You know I could certainly see how that case could be made... I'd need to look back but it very possible.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2019, 09:21:52 PM
Okay so something I've never quite known and I'm reminded of from the bubstandard John Smith Pussyfoot 5 offering. He has a reoccuring villian... well reoccuring of sorts. Here they are called Vathek. In tyranny Rex Deus Ex Machina its Reverend Gabriel Haze and I can't remember and am too lazy to look up what they're called in Firekind. Do they appear elsewhere as well? I can't remember immediately but it wouldn't surprise me. Anyway we we know what's up with that? Do we know what's up with Pussyfoot 5 come to that. Not John Smith at this best and it comes back after the first story concludes in Prog 1188 as I recall.

Also wrapping up in 1188 is Missionary Man - Promised Man. Gordon Rennie is more than ably assisted by a host of top rate artists on this 15 part epic. Its not quite as strong as I remember and while a fun reworking of the classic Cursed Earth trip as vehicle for multiple substories I seemed to remember the theme of faith and the Grud fueled defender came through stronger than I got on this reading. This time while it played with the idea it didn't do much more than use Cain as Pale Rider, while others faith leads our Cursed Earth pilgrims to all sorts of perils. Maybe I just read it in the wrong frame of mind this time.

Still enjoyed it immensely I shiould say, its just not as strong as I recall.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 17 June, 2019, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2019, 09:21:52 PM
He has a reoccuring villian... well reoccuring of sorts. Here they are called Vathek. In tyranny Rex Deus Ex Machina its Reverend Gabriel Haze and I can't remember and am too lazy to look up what they're called in Firekind. Do they appear elsewhere as well? I can't remember immediately but it wouldn't surprise me. Anyway we we know what's up with that?

Mr. Vathek in Pussyfoot 5 and Mr. Cheetl in Firekind are both members of the Chadarisq-Khan, a race of hooved intergalactic torturers. The chap in Tyranny Rex looks a bit like one, but, if I remember rightly, isn't one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2019, 10:13:56 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 17 June, 2019, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2019, 09:21:52 PM
He has a reoccuring villian... well reoccuring of sorts. Here they are called Vathek. In tyranny Rex Deus Ex Machina its Reverend Gabriel Haze and I can't remember and am too lazy to look up what they're called in Firekind. Do they appear elsewhere as well? I can't remember immediately but it wouldn't surprise me. Anyway we we know what's up with that?

Mr. Vathek in Pussyfoot 5 and Mr. Cheetl in Firekind are both members of the Chadarisq-Khan, a race of hooved intergalactic torturers. The chap in Tyranny Rex looks a bit like one, but, if I remember rightly, isn't one.

Thanks Greg that rings a lot of bells.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 June, 2019, 10:34:36 PM
Pussyfoot 5 was indeed short-lived and (at least up to 2014) consisted of only two series (both of which were reprinted in the Meg 281 floppy): Fast Breeder (1184-1188) and Alien Sex Fiend (1251-1256).

I found Missionary Man to be very hit and miss (story-wise) but often a showcase for great art.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 June, 2019, 08:12:46 PM
I have nothing to say except...

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

I hug you Jim Campbell you are magnificent.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 June, 2019, 08:16:14 PM
Yay!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 June, 2019, 09:21:33 PM
I still have nothing to say I just wanted to do

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

That again...

... well okay yeah I do have some stuff to whitter about from Progs 1190 - 1192. First 1190 sees the first book of Dante - Tsar Wars ends and by God the ending is magnificent. You can kinda sum up the whole of this story like this:

Episode 1: Supreme stage setting elevating the scale of the strip to brutally represent the scale of the war
Middle bit: The mission
Episode 8: Tense ending to mission, comedy moment to lighten the mood - but really serving only to lull you into the full impact of the magnificently terrible final page. Serving to show whatever the scale of the war (see episode 1) its the savage impact on the personal level, often of non combatants, that still matters most.

Now of course that completely neglects the fact that the 'middle bit' is also a quite frankly genius bit of storytelling by Morrison (R) and Burns (J).  The wonderful balance of action, character and comedy moments is just so well handled.

Highlight of Prog 1191 is a brilliant one off Dredd - 'Slow crime day' that I didn't really remember - god only knows why - a delightful look at how Judges handle just the day the title suggests and the victim of their time filled hands.

Another surprise is Tales of Telguuth. Now I don't like Tales of Telguuth I find it a limited format for done in ones, BUT this opener is fantastic. Brilliantly setting the scene, crafting the world and weaving it all masterfully into a gripping if simple story by Steve Moore all rendered quite devinely by Greg Staples.

Prog 1192 is another 4 story Prog - as have the previous 3 as well. This one fills the gap in seeming desperation, were as the previous at least did it with great double sized strips. In Prog 1192 there two Dredd's one by Wagner (with Laurence Campbell) which is great and one by Roland Grey (with Dylan Teague and 'K. Brighton') I don't know Roland Grey - I'm not sure he graces 2000ad again (?) and to be honest its just not great.

Interesting though the way folks pop in and out of our lives and leave little behind.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2019, 09:13:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Ain't ever going to get tired of that.

Anyway so we charge up to Prog 1200 and all that will trim, with a decnt line-up, one I thought would be more hit 'n miss but in all honestly only really has one stinker. I have to say Slaine Secret Commonwealth is everything its reputation has it to be. Its just. The art is poor, very very poor. The storytelling is abysmal, the colouring jarring, the figure work awkward and inconsistant and the blurring and toning unpleasent on the eye. I'm not sure what happened to David Bircham and I hope he's found his niche, just on the evidence of his 2000ad work comics isn't it. The story is pretty dire, or at least has nothing strong enough to make me care about anything in it enough to fight through the art. By this point Slaine has become tired cliche and in much need of the rest I think it gets after this story.

I was thinking I'd also be adding Tales of Telguuth alongside Slaine as a poor set of stories, but you know what I'm really enjoying them. Okay a couple do fall into the formula I remember them having, but the vast majority have been superb little catchy pop tunes of comic stories. There's nothing going to change your world, but by George they are well crafted. I do wonder how they will do on the 'tricky second album' when that might not be enough to carry them. Maybe that's where this series gets its place in my mind. Still cracking stuff to this point.

As has been Dredd in Prog 1193 we get what I think is Jock's debut in the Prog and its great. Maybe not quite at his best yet but close enough. The story 'Shirley Temple of Doom' is a blinder as well. John Wagner writes a wickedly cold tale of block insurance, Judical frustration and poor ol' Judge Stark meeting a grusome end. Its a mini masterpiece.

Speaking of which Sinister Dexter enters what for me is their golden period as 'Mission to Mangapore' ends the Death of Demi arc in fine, fine sci-fi action thriller mood. With twists, turns, crosses and double crosses, action, baddies thought dead springing back into action... its just excellent. The two part follow up 'Life Behind Bars' sees Rocky Rhodes reopen All Bar One and shows what a rich vein of form Dabnett will be on as he broadens the range of the strip now this Death of Demi opus is other. The stories starting in Eurocrash have been good, no GREAT, but Dabnett is about to show us he can get even better.

All of this is topped off quite beautifully with the second part of Kreeler Conspiracy. Which sees Johnny's return continue without missing a beat. The dubious narrator trick working wonderfully to leave the series open and Wagner and Ezquerra bring Johnny to his brutal best. This is just a superb story and one I'm very glad they had the courage to see through.

So there we have it Prog 1199 flies by and we see a logo depart (much needed too if I'm honest) and if my corrected facts are correct David Bishop leaving 2000ad. Many claim Andy Diggle helped save 2000ad. I have no behind the scenes insights but speaking on the numbers alone David Bishop left as editor with the comic in a much MUCH better place than it was when he took over. A much better place. I also have significent reservations about how Andy Diggle will handle his time in charge. But that's to come soon. For now I will salute David Bishop the most underrated editor 2000ad has had and a true guardian of the comic and one who should be lauded.

I'm off for a short break as I Waid into some Daredevil I think but I'll be back before you can shake a billy club, have no fear.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 22 June, 2019, 09:57:31 PM
it's a blurry editorial line I suspect due to Diggle being deputy Ed with Bishop for a good while before his short but eventful time in the command module hot seat?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 22 June, 2019, 09:59:13 PM
MODIFY WHERE ART THOU??

Just to add, I think Diggle as deputy was a good thing for Bishop, as he brought an old school fan sensibility that balanced old and new pretty well - I really must doa  prog slog myself to see what I think of his solo editorising!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2019, 10:29:15 PM
As I recall it takes his 'shot glass of rocket fuel' idea too far. For me the Bishop era (all be it with Andy D as deputy and apparently with increasing remit as time went on?) was at its strongest when he developed strong, long running series. With Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante. This is further evidenced by how great 1999 was with a number of other long running stories. Seemed to give the Prog the stability it needed to move past the experimentation of growing up.

With Andy D nothing got time to settle and what might have been great stories never got to develop beyond the concept as he was keen to blast onto the next thing.

But lets see how I get on this time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 June, 2019, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2019, 10:29:15 PM
As I recall it takes his 'shot glass of rocket fuel' idea too far.

Remember, as we've discussed before, that it's possible to read too much into the 'rocket fuel' memo, which Andy intended as a general statement of intent, not a cast iron policy.

It tends to get conflated with the truncation of stories like A Love Like Blood, Storming Heaven, and a couple of others, but that didn't happen because of the 'rocket fuel' memo, it happened because of an overseas reprint deal in the offing which was conditional on stories hitting a very specific page-length and not one page more. When the deal fell through, the restriction was lifted and stories of more varied length became possible again.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 23 June, 2019, 06:08:45 PM
what Jim said - by (un?)happy coincidence, Rebellion wanted 44-46 page (self contained?) tales for a reprint deal that was about at the time, so some great ideas got squished.  I seem to recall Rennie's Storming Heaven as a possible victim of that - could have been a great reinvention of the 60s counterculture as Super Hero,  but needed time to breathe - like introduce Manson in book 3! That said, not sure what the outlook was for doing Book 1, Book 2, Book 3 etc
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 June, 2019, 09:15:40 PM
Fair point - I seem to recall you've called me on that before Jim, when I've commented on it here abouts. I'll try to keep it in mind. Though why I should have to allow reasoned balanced evidence influence my fixed blinkered, long held view I'll never know.

Let's see how I get on over the next 'year' - but please bare with me and do call me out if needed.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 June, 2019, 11:00:30 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 June, 2019, 09:15:40 PM
I seem to recall you've called me on that before Jim

To be fair, I didn't really 'call you' on it — I absolutely had this wrong, too. I remember John Smith complaining bitterly on the old 2000AD Usenet group that Andy's 'rocket fuel edict' had robbed A Love Like Blood of a couple of extra episodes that it needed (which it really did) and I can see why he thought that, and, from there, why a lot of the rest us thought that, too. It's only relatively recently from talking to Andy that the rocket fuel thing and the reprint thing (both of which I was aware of separately) dropped into place chronologically.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: GordonR on 23 June, 2019, 11:37:11 PM
Yeah, that stupid foreign rights packaging deal did for Storming Heaven. I was told I could do it as one book of about 45 pages (not enough pages) or two books of 90 pages total.  (Which was too many pages.)

So it was somewhat irritating when that deal ended up coming to nothing, despite its format being imposed on already commissioned work.

TBH, Storming Heaven was a creative failure anyway - not a work I ever revisit - and taught me that superheroes really aren't my thing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 24 June, 2019, 07:18:30 AM
Quote from: GordonR on 23 June, 2019, 11:37:11 PM
(Which was too many pages.)

You know you get paid by the page, right?! There's a reason why Pat Mills' catchphrase is "He didn't think it too many"...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: GordonR on 24 June, 2019, 07:37:50 AM
What can I say?  That some of us still have the sad vestiges of creative integrity?

As I said, I haven't looked at I n years, but Storming Heaven probably needed another 15-20 pages. Most of it devoted to some desperately needed character development.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 24 June, 2019, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: GordonR on 24 June, 2019, 07:37:50 AM
What can I say?  That some of us still have the sad vestiges of creative integrity?

CRAZY TALK.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 27 June, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 September, 2017, 09:50:30 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 September, 2017, 10:43:02 PM

Which is why, in the early period where Dredd was the only (?) full colour strip, it would move around the comic, or sometimes be broken up with an entire strip in between, or break up a B&W strip, seemingly for no reason.

Once again fantastic insight Jim.The weird thing about this though is this is prior to the 6 pages of colour Dredd scattered around the Prog (starts Prog 620?). This is still the era of colour centre pages only. Don't think I've ever seen a strip have one page before Dredd like this. When you look at how packed the Prog is you kinda see why it happened, we get a back inside cover story page. Just really strange. .

I might be wrong, but I think the first time a strip got split mid-prog was Ace Trucking Co. (Last Lug to Abbo Dabbo) in prog 261, and I think the cause was a color ad.  This occurs with relative frequency after that point.

Prog 535 just seems to be a really unlucky combination of story-lengths that (with the color center pages) forced Tharg's (mighty) hand.  The only way to fix it would be to put one of the story pages on the back cover.  Whilst that isn't unheard of, I can only think of once that it was done without coloring it (maybe in prog 358).  The 535 problem recurs a few times.

Progs 547 & 548 are also oddballs, with their color pages and staples off-center.  (Off-center color pages had happened before when they had a special color center pull out: like Mask in prog 494, Diceman in prog 473 and so on.)

By the time we reach prog 589 (with an extra four color pages), splitting stories becomes normal, with Dredd (later Slaine) nearly always split by another thrill.  This gets resolved in prog 650 when more color pages get added.  Finally, the prog goes full color in prog 723, making perhaps some editorial pagination headaches disappear.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 28 June, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 June, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
Prog 535 just seems to be a really unlucky combination of story-lengths that (with the color center pages) forced Tharg's (mighty) hand.  The only way to fix it would be to put one of the story pages on the back cover.  Whilst that isn't unheard of, I can only think of once that it was done without coloring it (maybe in prog 358).  The 535 problem recurs a few times.

One episode (I think the first) of Eye of the Traitor had a black and white back page - earlier in the 300s.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 June, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
Wow Funt Solo that's some cool work!

And Sheridan nice top up.

I actually really liked Storming Heaven when I read it a bit back. It seemd to work with its drug fuelled theme. Be interesting to see how I get on with it when it rolls up again soon (ish I think)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 28 June, 2019, 08:33:23 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 28 June, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 June, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
Prog 535 just seems to be a really unlucky combination of story-lengths that (with the color center pages) forced Tharg's (mighty) hand.  The only way to fix it would be to put one of the story pages on the back cover.  Whilst that isn't unheard of, I can only think of once that it was done without coloring it (maybe in prog 358).  The 535 problem recurs a few times.

One episode (I think the first) of Eye of the Traitor had a black and white back page - earlier in the 300s.

Oh yeah: prog 330.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 28 June, 2019, 09:49:55 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 28 June, 2019, 08:33:23 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 28 June, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 June, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
Prog 535 just seems to be a really unlucky combination of story-lengths that (with the color center pages) forced Tharg's (mighty) hand.  The only way to fix it would be to put one of the story pages on the back cover.  Whilst that isn't unheard of, I can only think of once that it was done without coloring it (maybe in prog 358).  The 535 problem recurs a few times.

One episode (I think the first) of Eye of the Traitor had a black and white back page - earlier in the 300s.

Oh yeah: prog 330.  Thanks.

No wonder I remembered it - the first prog I bought!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 July, 2019, 09:35:56 PM
So Prog 1200 comes and, well we'll get tot he content in a bit but man I'm no fan of the format.

And as the logo thread is a hot property right now I'm also no fan of the mast head either.

Also Chris Blythe whose colour I often love and admire seems to be doing a little too much shiney shiny at this time too. Don't remember this lasting.

Right old group me tonight aren't I!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 16 July, 2019, 04:59:24 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2019, 09:21:52 PM
bubstandard

Isn't that the term for describing the glut of Wolverine comics in the late 90s?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 July, 2019, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 16 July, 2019, 04:59:24 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2019, 09:21:52 PM
bubstandard

Isn't that the term for describing the glut of Wolverine comics in the late 90s?

Exactly a John Smith comic that's as good as any of a bunch of contemporary Wolverine comics. I mean I could have used a word as bland as substandard but heck I am talking about purple prose Smith here*

[normalsizefont] Reckon I got away with that one and no one will notice [\normalsizefont]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 10:30:55 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 July, 2019, 09:35:56 PM
So Prog 1200 comes and, well we'll get tot he content in a bit but man I'm no fan of the format.

And as the logo thread is a hot property right now I'm also no fan of the mast head either.

Also Chris Blythe whose colour I often love and admire seems to be doing a little too much shiney shiny at this time too. Don't remember this lasting.

Right old group me tonight aren't I!

I seem to be in a minority of one here! As I wasn't a reader during this period and have only recently seen this design, I get to enjoy it as a fascinating little curio from nearly 20 years ago. However if you were a reader back then you'd have thought that this is what the prog was going to look like from now, possibly for years to come, with all past designs permanently consigned to the dustbin. Those are two very different perspectives! It's like when a band goes in an atypical direction only to revert to form an album later - Queen's Hot Space springs to mind. People hated it at the time, but those who only came to it as one album in their back catalogue might appreciate it for being a little different. Another example would be Legend of Zelda Wind Waker with its cartoony, cell shaded look.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 July, 2019, 09:20:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

No, no Hot Space is not acceptable on any visiting!

Anyway enough of this Queen talk lets get back to the king of thrills... all be it a king not at the height of this reign as we discuss Prog 1204.

We're well into the relaunch stories by now and in being so some problems are exposed for 2000ad in 2000 eerrr AD. See after the delights of 1999 JUST having Wagner Dredd, Dante and Sinister Dexter doesn't feel like enough. I know, we have gorged on Tharg's delights that he needs to pump more from his organ to satisfy these days and these early Diggle era comics mysteriously fail to deliver that.

I say mysteriously as we have Missionary Man, which I loved by now AND with the normally brilliant Jesus Redondo onboard.... yet Mark of the Beast, casting Caine against sub-terranian bomb worships doesn't serve as a fitting farewell in the Prog itself. It all falls a bit flat.

As does Red Fang that tries to be an intrigate sci-fi crime drama, but alas lacks characters that feel three dimensional, they too feel flat. Even worse they feel like they're really trying to be more and just failing. Makes them feel a little pretensious. Like Redando on Missionary Man, even the normally reliable Mighty Yeowell can't save this one.

So yeah Its hard to call these bad Progs, they aren't, there's wonderful Dredd, spectacular Dante, good Sinister Dexter (not sold on the art of much of this here) but 2000ad is back at full strength these days and so we demand more. Put these Progs 7, 8 even 3 years ago and they'd have been great. Here we know better.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 July, 2019, 09:31:11 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Diggle in New Blood


I can give Andy Diggle's time as editor a hard time, and I do think it has many miss steps, fueled by shot glasses or not (I think this book deal thingie Jim has mentioned a couple of times explains a lot), anyway what is undenible is in these early days quite what he does to boost the artist roster - the following could all be wrong by the way so I stand to be corrected.

Prog 1205 - FraZer (aways get the S and the Z wrong so I looked it up!) Irving springs on the scene and elevates to a Dredd by Prog 1206

Prog 1207 we get D'Israeli's debute as an artist - he's been colouring for a wee while but I think this is his first pictures?

Prog 1208 Diggle somehow cranks up the pace even more. Boo Cook appears - all be it looking more like Phillip Bond or Glyn Dillon that Boo Cook I think of. AND Richard Elson ... doesn't make his debut... but since his art has changed so much since Shadows and a cameo in Deus Ex Machina it might as well be.

I might have missed some as well before I started to notice his turn around.

DAMN that's impressive and these folks will grow immensely as artists over the coming year its really testament to some talenting spoting that so early in his time as Tharg's little helper Andy D has found so much talent.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Leigh S on 19 July, 2019, 09:49:20 PM
yeah, I've always said Diggle was great with artists and was just the eye needed - Bishop did good in many ways, but Diggle had the eye for both new talent and for winkling back out the old guard - Colin Wilson!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Frank on 19 July, 2019, 10:35:54 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 July, 2019, 09:49:20 PM
Bishop did good in many ways, but Diggle had the eye for both new talent and for winkling back out the old guard - Colin Wilson!

Old Dark Days was in the big chair when Wilson was rehired for Doomsday (alongside Kennedy & McMahon), although I suppose Diggle was sat at the desk opposite, so who knows how much influence he had over any of those decisions.

The Megaverse (https://www.facebook.com/groups/2000admegaverse/permalink/2184761615018364/) group is doing a series of cover retrospectives and it's noticeable how much the quality of the covers improves - in terms of choice of artist, choice of image, and overall design - after the Bishop era ends and the Diggle era begins.

Correlation is not causation, and there may be a host of reasons behind that other than the change of Tharg, but the chopping up of art and compulsion to add so much unnecessary cover text that it swamps the image were trademarks of Mr Space Girls' covers all the way back to the Megazine days.


(https://i.imgur.com/4fx0vnG.png?1)(https://i.imgur.com/qAVLt4k.png?1)

                                BEFORE                                                          AFTER


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 19 July, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
Quote from: Frank on 19 July, 2019, 10:35:54 PM
Old Dark Days was in the big chair when Wilson was rehired for Doomsday (alongside Kennedy & McMahon), although I suppose Diggle was sat at the desk opposite, so who knows how much influence he had over any of those decisions.

This killer combo of Kennedy and Wilson on Assassin/Doomsday was the single thing that got me buying 2000AD again, after I'd long given it up for dead. Pretty sure it was Irving, Fraser & D'Israeli that kept me there: sometimes it's D'Israeli that still does. Never underestimate the power of good artist choices. So if we could work out who's responsible, you'd all know who to blame for my endless wittering on lo these past two decades...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 July, 2019, 09:13:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Add Ben Oliver to the list. In Prog 1210 (I think his first) looking like a strange, and wonderful combination of Steve Parkhouse and Jock to my inexpert eyes.

Anyway we come to the end of this run of Prog and while Red Fang hasn't improved, except for a nice twist at the end, Dredd too remains  at the same level, all be it  at the other end of the scale. Ben Oliver (with John Wagner) entry into PJ's sage is fantastic as Maybe fails to change his face and loses his heart to Banana City.

Some mediocre Future Shocks and Road Kills keeping the middle of the road alive we are left with Sinister Dexter being the bright light supporting Dredd.

The six part 'Shrink Rap' is one of my favourite as Dexter goes all Tony Soprano on us and takes to the analyists couch. The openning episode where he day dreams of killing his doctor is just genius. From there we get the partnership's origin story. Its all action and insight. Dabnett, ably aided by Andy Clark does his damnedest to justify the actions of our deadly duo via the shrink. Doesn't really hold up to close examination - really though I've been through all this in a lot more detail in the past - but its easy enough to get past as the whole thing is so thrilling and charming. Its a glorious story it really is.

New line up 'next week' and the year is going to end with some interesting if not entirely successful stories it would seem.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 July, 2019, 09:43:14 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

We rattle along to the end the year 2000 the year that 2000ad didn't change its name.

The end of the year naturally starts to bring with it the end of a number of stories, some of which I'll cover over the last couple of posts. First to go, in Prog 1219 is Vanguard. The series does feel like its a big set up. We get a standard military officer doesn't approve of their harsh, overbearing commanding officer and their bully lackeys. Then it all kicks off, the Captain of the space vessel Cirocco gets into big trouble. Tactics used to repel aliens storming on board are extreme and we get MUTANY, kinda lead by our titlual heroine Vanguard. The mutiny is successful and the Captain is cast adrift, with commentry from a trial we never see as at this point Book 1 ends...

...never to return...

Just as it gets really interesting as I recall we never get the pay off from the set up. Which is a shame as its good set up and this one had some potential and placed itself and hero in a really interesting place.

Prog 1220 see another battle ship based story conclude with the end of Dante's  Battleship Potemkin. In some ways there are parallels between this and Vanguard. Conflicit, horrible leader and reaction to the cruelity of war. While I enjoyed Vanguard I adore Battleship Potemkin. During the Tsar Wars we've seen Dante harden, here Dante having heard Lady Jocasta's tale of the past between her, Vlad and Dmitri shows with the declaration 'Heroes be damned' quite where he has fallen to.

This story is just brilliant and a highlight in the Tsar Wars which is in itself highlight in 2000ad's history.

By Prog 1220 Deadlock hasn't ended, but since I most likely won't be be arsed to comment on it when it has I'm quickly comment on what a shame it is. Its has such potential, Termite after the fall of Torquemada, an ABC Warroir (all be it one whose got increasingly annoying over the years), Purity coming to terms with political necessity, a serial killer, beautiful Henry Flint art.... it has it all and yet.... is all so dull.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 30 July, 2019, 10:12:34 PM
1212 was my first ever prog, and I genuinely get a warm glow to read/talk about those progs. Objectively I know that many stories from around then weren't perhaps the best, but... Oh man, I still love 'em.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 July, 2019, 09:00:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

And so Prog 1222 end the years line up* and it kinda exemplifies 2000ad in 2000ad.

Firstly there is some magnificent stuff and the end of Dredd - Sector House is as tight, bold and thrilling as the rest of this story. I'm amazed this one is only 8 episodes long, Wagner and Ezquerra pack so much in. Its a wonderful look at Dredd as a youngster via Rico and how his hardline puts noses out a joint, one hard one in particular. By doing this and having Dredd dominate in the background we learn even more about Dredd and what he's become, compared to his younger self. Its just brilliant.

Rain Dogs, like Deadlock looks amazing, with art by the superb Colin Wilson, why he isn't hailed more escapes me, and the story has much potential... it just doesn't really live up to it. It never really becomes anything, never really gets a grip of what its trying to be. Its fun action but nothing more and feels a bit of a waste of Mr Wilson's immense talent.

We get some fun Sinister Dexter with hit and miss art. The art in Prog 1221 reminds me of the thing that Andy Diggle is getting so right as Patrick Goddard is another addition to the ranks... okay he has a Future Shock in Prog1220 but its his wonderful western take on Sinister Dexter that caught my year to the fact it was him.

The year end* as the year was a mixed bag.

*[normalfontsize] I know I've gone on about this before and I do try to keep my re-read pure. But before it can be pure, before it can behave, it must be self-absorbed and having looked at the contents of Prog 2001 I'm calling the year here (back in the morning I suspect). Off on my jollies and while clearly chronolically Prog 2001ad belongs in  year 2000ad story wise much more than Prog 2000ad its all about the relaunch. Nothing rolls into it and everything rolls out of it.

So damn being pure, damn behaving, this is all about the self-absorbed and so Prog 2001 is going to be include in year 2001's write up. [\normalfontsize]

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2019, 09:26:44 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Oh my rascally memory I came here to do a quick write up of Prog 2001 and released I'm still to review 2000ad (year in Thrillpower that is).

Mind I pretty much summed things up a few post ago when I said

QuoteNew line up 'next week' and the year is going to end with some interesting if not entirely successful stories it would seem.

A line that would nicely covers things.

Still before I get carried away lets see what my prediction was form my 1999 review...

QuoteNow I'm a little concerned 2000 won't quite sustain these levels [those levels being 1999 being proclaimed my best in thrillpower to date]. Andy D sends his letter*, soon as he steps up to the plate and I have significent issues with his tenor. I don't think he takes over officially until 1/2 through next year, but from putting the Progs in order ahead of reading them I see the marks of his philosophy write large. It wouldn't be bad, but it certainly won't be the saving of the Prog David Bishop has done that already.

This by and large is right. Lets look at the evidence shall we, and there is some great stuff in 2000, there really is.

Dredd - has some blinders, its not quite the best of Dredd but Dredd is up there, particularly when Wagner really starts to play with Dredd's history either directly in 'Blood Cadets' or indirectly in 'Sector House'.
Dante - is in the middle of Tsar Wars and therefore prime classic stuff.
Strontium Dog - has a stone cold classic in Kreeler Conspiracy
Sinister Dexter - while not as consistantly strong as 1999 just holds onto top tier by having some of my favourite short to medium stories of theirs. Particularly 'Mission to Mangapore', 'Life Behind Bars' and 'Shrink Rap'.

There's not much else. Now in saying there's not much else there is a decnt middle ground. I'm still a fan of Missionary Man 'Promised Land' - though its not quite the top tier I remember it to be, Vanguard was great and Rain Dogs close. Badlands is also there.

Trouble is there's also a lot of weak stuff. Slaine is horrible and I'm afraid for all the good Henry Flint art I'm going to out Deadlock in here too alongside... to many really, Pussyfoot 5, Red Fang, Glimmer Rats.

So yeah while 1999 saw a real peak and 2000 was always going to struggle to maintain. It was after all a year of much upheaval, changes in office, owner AND editor is a lot for one comic to handle. All this and a none too promising format change - that luckily I don't think will last too long... Its not late 80s early (to mid) 90s bad but its a long way from 1999. Still as I've mentioned the change to Andy Diggle really does flesh out the artistic compliment and there's a LOT to be said for that. Alas much of it was so good it won't last too long before getting snapped up to richer shores.

I think 2001 will be a thrill odyssey in a similar vien. A mixed bag to say the least, no party like 1999, but not a bad year. There will be too many misses to sit alongside numerous hits that I believe will be on the way.

Anyway enough of this back tracking lets get to the future and discuss Prog 2001ad...

*[normalsizefont] Note to say while Andy will indeed send his letter in 2000, as Jim has pointed out a couple of times - and this time I will remember - the letter and its contents can be conflated with the impact of a book deal that meant thrills were kept to a compact and tight 8 - 10 parts to produce continential style albums rather than being a part of Andy D's deliberate mantra [\normalsizefont]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 August, 2019, 08:06:16 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)
Prog 2001

So this was of course the cap end to thrillpower in 2000, the equivalent of the end of year annual christmas threat, but here its a bit more than last time. Yes its celebration, a mighty roar in honour of Tharg and all the lovely he scatters into our lives, but its also setting up the year to come in a way its not finishing the year that has gone.

So its got nothing to do with the year 2000's thrillpower... well aside from being part of it!

Anyway nothing rolls into it from the previous run. We get some nice standards. A solid Dredd by Wagner and Kennedy. All be it a slightly easy feeling take down of then massive Big Brother (damn I feel so old!). It has a glorious Tharg the Mighty story by T.M.O. and Henry Flint which looks simply beautiful and in some ways is a celebration of 2000ad. We get a really nice Sinister Dexter in Bullet Time as the bodies fall and the shells are counted. And we get heartening news that Strontium Dog is here to stay as 'The Sad Case' gives us a fun one off featuring the failings of Kid Knee. Nikolai Dante also gets a fun one off, in a little break from the Tsar Wars main feature.

We get celebration of all that is Thrillpower. The Tharg story mentioned above fits into that category quite nicely. Zzzzenith.com does too... though maybe not nicely. Do love the way he (Zenith) introduces Eddie as if he'd passed and Peter St John as William Hartnell. We also get a Bad Company one off, but in many way this is setting up the thrill to return later in the year (is it this year?). We get some posters and factfiles reminding of thrills past too.

Then we get to the meat on the bones, the budding new remit to come for these squarebound delights, they become all the above and launch Progs as new thrills are started and the new year is set up. Here we get Button Man III and I'm sure I'll return to that later but man its good. Necronauts also kicks off, beautifully rendered by Frazer Irving but in reality another example of the rocket fuelled book deal and a thrill that will be too short and feel a little hampered as it bursts forth and ends too soon with no room to breathe its fullest. One of the lost opportunities of this time. We also get...

...oh that's it for the thrills bridging into the new year. So while its certainly not cap ending the year gone, its also not yet fully the beast it will spring into. At the moment these Progs are in fact more like the annuals of old and are all the more wonderful for that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Rately on 06 August, 2019, 09:35:25 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 31 July, 2019, 09:00:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)



Firstly there is some magnificent stuff and the end of Dredd - Sector House is as tight, bold and thrilling as the rest of this story. I'm amazed this one is only 8 episodes long, Wagner and Ezquerra pack so much in. Its a wonderful look at Dredd as a youngster via Rico and how his hardline puts noses out a joint, one hard one in particular. By doing this and having Dredd dominate in the background we learn even more about Dredd and what he's become, compared to his younger self. Its just brilliant.

[\normalfontsize]

This sounds fantastic. Your description has me wanting to leave work and go hit up the wee shop in Belfast that does a run on 2000AD back issues.

I'm a recently returned lapsed reader, and knowing I have more Wagner / Ezquerra Dredd to look forward to is an absolute privilege.

Love this thread, Colin. Thanks.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 06 August, 2019, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2019, 09:26:44 PM
Trouble is there's also a lot of weak stuff. Slaine is horrible and I'm afraid for all the good Henry Flint art I'm going to out Deadlock in here too alongside... to many really, Pussyfoot 5, Red Fang, Glimmer Rats.

I never really got the admiration for Glimmer Rats at the time - it didn't really do anything for me
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 06 August, 2019, 10:50:27 AM
Colonial marines, meaningless slaughter, Harrison art and Bladerunner references, what's not to like? I was never a big fan, but while it wasn't high art it was perfectly fine SF action nonsense.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2019, 09:09:15 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 August, 2019, 10:50:27 AM
Colonial marines, meaningless slaughter, Harrison art and Bladerunner references, what's not to like? I was never a big fan, but while it wasn't high art it was perfectly fine SF action nonsense.

Its the art that does it for me. I just don't get on with it and the storytelling is weak, as is often the case with earlier Mark Harrison, I struggle with his Durham Red as well a great deal. The rest isn't strong enough to justify the fight for me.

Quote from: Rately on 06 August, 2019, 09:35:25 AM
Love this thread, Colin. Thanks.

Well shucks its a pleasure. I'm always amazed that folks put up with my seemingly endless typos, grammatical errors and poorly constructed sentences to get any meaning from the pap I spout... hence this is really self-absorbed as I always write it assuming I'm the only one who can make head or tail of what I'm saying!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2019, 09:23:14 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Well 2001 starts out pretty well. A lukewarm  Tor Cyan doesn't over stay its welcome at four episodes - though Kev Walker art aside there's worse to come as I recall.

Necronauts while a short thrill, defies my expectations (see below) and at just nine episodes by actually seems about right. Its a fine concept, executed well and doesn't over stay its welcome. I thought this one felt curtailed but read well and man  Fraser Irving's art is a delight and perfect for this story.

All this is backing up some nice Wagner Dredd one offs, soe very good Sinister Dexter and some decent Future Shocks. The star of the show however is Button Man III . Well its just brilliant isn't it. Its just so well crafted. as I've said before down thread I believe (or maybe on a different thread but I think its here abouts) reading it while I can see the translation into telly or film is appealing while it work as well. For me this tale is all about the craft. Both Wagner and Ranson showing what masters of their game they are. Like Harry seeing off multiple button men as they track him down for trying to get out in one deadliy man hunt, none of the other are quite at the races compared to the best. So Wagner and Ranson. There's some great comics snapping away at this, chasing around Button Man III but none of them have the completely mastery as this and while they are very very good in their own right they pale away.

But its about comics masters telling a comic tale very very well. Strip that away and is Harry being tracked down, out thinking and out gunning even thoug out numbers. Laying traps like Rambo and Dutch. Being a stone cold cool hard killer, really going to standout as original? Who knows we'll have to wait and see, if we every do. Me though while I'd be more than happy for John and Arthur to get their pay day I'm more than happy just to have this and the other, Button Man stories as the perfect comics they are.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2019, 09:13:25 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Covering long awaited returns

A couple of lovely covers beck in the first relaunch of 2001. Prog 1234 also sorts out a recent issue - that thankfully didn't last long. The new mast head didn't last long a little over 6 months and is replaced by... well the classic logo, the greatest and longest lasting. Oh its been tweaked and played with, its been put back into a mast head of a kind now. but almost 1000 (gulp) Progs later - well 900+, its still there. As Unca Joe says on the cover itself

QuoteIf it ain't broke don't fix it creep!

Its a revisit to the logo of old and the cover of old that introduced it and its a lovely piece of work

http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?choice=1234&Comic=2000ad (http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?choice=1234&Comic=2000ad)

When I look at the cover of the next Prog 1235 I wonder if Tharg commissioned this as an option for the relaunch before deciding to go a different direction and celebrate the new logo. Its a glorious Kev Walker Tharg cover with a nice little montage of characters at his feet. Its one of my favourites, but then I've always been a sucker for a Tharg cover.

http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?Comic=2000ad&choice=1235 (http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?Comic=2000ad&choice=1235)

Inside there's a bit of a classic feel to Tharg's organ too. Wagner and Kennedy Dredd, modern classics Dante - with a silly and slightly out of tone Tsar Wars side story and Sinister Dexter. Alongside these is a return after a long break of the classic ABC Warriors. Its a set of stories I've very much been looking forward to re-reading, not necessarily cos I remember liking them especially, I have significent problems in my mind with this return to Mars triology (as I recall I'll get) but I'm very much looking forward to re-evaluating them.... they start... okay... glorious Henry Flint art aside, but I'll give this far story some more time before I make a proper assessment.

Still overall good times in the Prog, lets see how it goes and all we need is a little more girth and I'll be well content to go with this classic look and feel.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 August, 2019, 09:53:38 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

A few quick thoughts from Spring 2001.

1. Prog 1236 adds Mike Perkins to Andy Diggle's collection of fine art additions. Mind he won't do much for Tharg as I recall.
2. Robbie Morrison teams up with the glorious and underrated Colin Wilson on Dredd for a mini partnership with a 3 parter (thought double length) that goes some way to show that however good you are and Robbie Morrison is one of Tharg's best Dredd can be hard to land. This isn't a bad story, its certainly rip snorting action fun. Its just a bit off.
3. My quick thoughts can meander sometimes!
4. Does this mean Robbie Morrison counts in Tharg's triple hitters that were discussed a while ago somewhere in these parts? It does if double Dredd counts as 2 a he has Nikolai Dante in Progs 1237 - 9.
5. Liam Sharpe takes over on ABC Warriors and does some very striking work.
6. The Mighty Yeowell finished another Dante interlude in Prog 1239, a four parter, entirely satisfying vampire special. Was 2001 a big vampire year we'll see a few of them as I recall?
7. Mike McMahon is next up on ABC and he's unsurprisingly stunning. Doesn't his Deadlock look like Torquemada though!
8. In Prog 1240 with The Runner, ability abated by Duncan Fregrado Joihn Wagner shows how he can take a simple story and make it fly with Dredd.
9. Is Tharg hitting deadline dilemma's as Carver Hale quickly drops out for a break we get a flood of Future Shocks and Tales of Telguuth... two a Prog and Tales struggles with its multi-part stories I feel.
10. Satannus Unchained with Colin MacNeil painting dinosaurs and dionosaur hunters is as fantastic to look at as it was controversial.
11. Love like Blood kicks off in Prog 1243, a John Smith story that falls victim of the curtailing of tales of this period if memory serves. I'll see on re-read.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 August, 2019, 10:23:49 PM
Not able to edit but would like to add:

2.5 But Colin Wilson drawing western environments is one of the greatest things in comics, even if its the Cursed Earth

10.5 There is very little in comics better than Colin Wilson drawing vehicles and machinary, even his drawing of western environments. His second team up with Robbie Morrison on Dredd is a familar story of a Citizen being driven (pun intended) over the edge mistakenly and meeting a Dredd end. Its just this story plays soooo well to Colin Wilson's strengths as an artist its an absolute delight.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 August, 2019, 09:55:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The rocket fuelled collection deal of dread

The history of what I'm about to discuss has been detailed earlier in this thread and is known to inhabitants of this board. Often Andy Diggle's rocket fuel letter is thought of as the reason for shorter 8 -10 thrills. But Jim has pointed out it was more to do with a trade deal collecting stories in bandes dessinees style albums.

Whatever the reason Prog 1249 sees two of the stories I feel most impacted by this format finish. There have been others Rain Dogs another good example, but in Carver Hale and Love like Blood we really do see two stories that suffer. Now as for Carver Hale by Mikes Carey and Perkins its certainly fair to say its curtailed nature isn't its only problem and for me its a blessing. The story of John Constantine crossed with Bill Savage and falls down out of the 'Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels' school that is so revived at this time. It trys just too damned hard to be ... well hard ... and gritty and its just kinda ugly.

Love like Blood on the other hand has the potential to be a finer beast, What now feel like a cliched tale of star crossed lovers who just happen to be werewolf and vampire and the family trouble that brings.

Both stories main issue though is that at 8 epsiodes each they just don't get room to breathe, to grow and explore the ideas and concepts they tease. Both come across as summaries of events rather than explorations and both have endings that feel pushed and forced.

We get quite a bit of filler as well at this time, more Tales of Telguuth and Future Shocks, something we're got used to as we rocket towards a laumch Prog as woth Prog 1250 coming we have change in the air too.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 24 August, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
I think even with extra episodes (and reinstated dialogue – Diggle chopped out some that he felt was needlessly tasteless) 'Love Like Blood' still wouldn't work because the characters aren't at all likeable. The lovers are horrible human-slaughtering bastards, so who cares what happens to them? On that basis, I chose not to support the lesser evil, when the best thing in the story was the vampire king, who at least had a brilliant visual design from Irving.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 25 August, 2019, 03:32:01 PM
Was Love like Blood cliched when it came out? Post-twilight, it certainly seems so.

I don't regard Tales of Telguuth as 'filler' - it was a neat idea to create an open-world fantasy setting that could accommodate any number of short or longer sword'n'sorcery tales, and a lot of them were pretty good.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 25 August, 2019, 03:43:05 PM
Tales of Telguuth was great and I loved the fantasy setting. Wish we can get more
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 August, 2019, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 24 August, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
I think even with extra episodes (and reinstated dialogue – Diggle chopped out some that he felt was needlessly tasteless) 'Love Like Blood' still wouldn't work because the characters aren't at all likeable. The lovers are horrible human-slaughtering bastards, so who cares what happens to them? On that basis, I chose not to support the lesser evil, when the best thing in the story was the vampire king, who at least had a brilliant visual design from Irving.

Yeah but this is exactly what I mean given time and space Smith would have made them fascinatating characters. He vary writes typically likable characters but so often writes fascinatating engaging characters that draw you in and along whatever they do.

Quote from: broodblik on 25 August, 2019, 03:43:05 PM
Was Love like Blood cliched when it came out? Post-twilight, it certainly seems so.

I don't regard Tales of Telguuth as 'filler' - it was a neat idea to create an open-world fantasy setting that could accommodate any number of short or longer sword'n'sorcery tales, and a lot of them were pretty good.

Quote from: broodblik on 25 August, 2019, 03:43:05 PM
Tales of Telguuth was great and I loved the fantasy setting. Wish we can get more

I must admit the first half I agree - but these recent ones on its return is how I think I've judged the series as a whole. They lack the depth and variety and feel tired here to my eye.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 25 August, 2019, 05:21:06 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 25 August, 2019, 04:59:00 PM
Yeah but this is exactly what I mean given time and space Smith would have made them fascinatating characters. He vary writes typically likable characters but so often writes fascinatating engaging characters that draw you in and along whatever they do.

I take your point about Smith's undoubted talent, but I just think that 'Love Like Blood' doesn't have a particularly interesting or rewarding concept, no matter what Smith did with it. The vampire prince protagonist would undoubtedly benefit from more personality, since I seem to recall him being a bit of a dull, charmless drip, but I tend to think Smith was on a (very rare) hiding to nothing with this one. I'm sure he could have made it better but I dunno if it would have been great.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 August, 2019, 09:19:36 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Well at least we'll always have Dante - Prog 1250

The problem of Prog 1250 and in some ways the whole Diggle 'Shot glass' period can be seen in two pages in Prog 1250. Well okay aside from the compressed book deal.

Anyway two page. Last page of part 1 of Garth Ennis and Carlos 'Wasn't his house falling down around his ears while he did this' Ezquerra's Helter Selter. Dredd beautifully render by Ezquerra looming large on his lawmaster in a splash page with the single line
Quote"Take my hand if you want to live.".
.. its a wasted page as while its is beautifully rendered its a bit flat and undynamic and really a page spent just to try to get impact out of a bad movie one liner?

Rigth slap bang next to it is page 1 of a new Tor Cyan story 'Crucible' again is beautifully rendered by Kev Walker in another splash... again a bit flat and with the lines from Tomlinson

Quote"...blah blah... Yama, a volanic crater off the southern shore of a doomed continent.

Dawn breaks on the ninth day in the death of Tor Cyan"

Ohh its also so brooding, cleaver (it thinks), intriguing (it thinks) ... but in reality its a bit silly and guff really.

Two splash pages writ large for impact and presense and really just holding poor movie lines! They're meant to be a shot glass of rocket fuel, but instead they are cinema cola, slightly flat and lacklustre as the ice has melted and watered it all down a bit too much and taken the edge of its once crisp bite.

Mind next Prog Tor Cyan has the passage

Quote"And the Sparta-Kurse knows him, embraces him...
Becomes him.
He is no longer Tor Cyan, no longer a soldier, or even man.
HE IS DEATH.
There is no pretence between them, no guilt
It knows what hes is, what he was born to do..."

Jez who let Chris Claremont in?!?

oh yeah and Pussyfoot 5 is added to the rooster - the baffling proof that even John Smith i (backed up by Steve Yeowell) sn't always golden. Alongside Durham Red with Mark Harrison's shiny art masking character and action. Both trying to ooze the sex to back up the action... I feel today I should say Nigel Dobbyns clear, clean lines might have been out of vogue in times of grim and gritty, but by heck he'd have told us this tale so well.

At least we have Dante that does the action and the sexy to perfection set in a work with characters we care about delievered with grim glory by both words and pictures (John Burns this time)

So yeah we have what should be a blinder of a launch Prog and if we had these names now (well if Carlos wasn't saddly taken from us) it'd almost certainly be a blinder. Here its a dud.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2019, 09:11:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Well its not getting better...

Bit of a rough spell. Between  Prog 1250 and the next jump on Prog 1263 things don't really pick up. Its the weakest spell in thrill power I can remember for some time.

Tor Cyan just rambles on with no sense of purpuse that I can see. Looks lovely mind

Durham Red - Vermin Stars is pretty popular I think, but I just can't get past the storytelling issues with the art and it keeps pulling me out and i just feel disconnected with the whole thing.

PussyFoot Five just doesn't work, its trying to be sexy and intriguing and weird and all sort but its just flacid, which given the creators is such a surprise.

Flacid is exactly how I'd describe Helter Skelter. Ennis' Dredd is just dull, as if handed the toy box there was just too much to play with and he just ended up throwing everything around without really knowing what to do.

When Banzai Battalion replaces Tor Cyan I should be more grateful than I am. Its by Wagner and Gibson after all but while its a fun distraction it feels very disposible to me.

A few  Future Shocks pop up and Tales of Telguuth trashes around a bit buit nothing really catchs hold.

Jez Nikolai Dante really does hold a one man defensive action as the Tsar Wars reaches its brilliant conclusion. Just a wonderful story and the ending is powerful and fitting for the glorious turning point in Dante's saga.

Well at least we get a relaunch prog next... what Tor Cyan's back... oh well what.... and Tales of Telguuth... bloody hell has Tharg been smokin' something... what...oh he has....
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 September, 2019, 01:42:20 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Thin margins - Prog 1250 and 1251

I often talk about the thin margins in the regular Prog review threads. How slight difference here and there can swing the overall quality of the Prog around. Fine example with Prog 1263 and 1264.

Now Prog 1263 is an odd thing. Its essentially a 'Jump on' Prog disguised as a last issue before a 'Jump on' Prog. Yes it has 5 new thrills, as should always be advertised on the front of a 'Jump on' but three of them are done in ones. Now I assume this was a deliberate choice to let folks experience some complete thrill power if they were just popping  by. The choices though are very, very odd.

Tales of Telguuth - is a staple at the moment and while its an okay example of the second half of this series I don't enjoy the second half of this series. Still its the type of thing I think has a perfect place in a 'Jump on'. A short sharp thrill to satisfy the drifting potential reader.

Tor Cyan The Dead Sorcerors Coachman - is just a bloomin' strange choice. Tor Cyan stripped of the setting that made him interesting just turns into the worse of the 90s grim hard men. The story is convoluted and bound by seeming history, but nothing that matters in reality. To be honest he might as well be brooding on that volcano still. It would be a very odd read to a newcomer and even bloomin' lovely art by Colin Wilson can't save it.

Tharg's Reefer Madness - somehow manages to be an even stranger choice. This represents nothing about the Prog at all except a call back to the horrors of a few years ago when 2000ad made a few misfired attempts to appeal to the Loaded crowd at the expense of remembering what made it cool its and of itself. Here Tharg is cool cos he's telling stories about drugs. Now don't get me wrong drugs are cool. I took enough in my youth to know this. But trying to be cool by telling horror stories - very average one at that - about taking drugs, tongue in cheek as you poke at folks who say weed is dangerous just reads as a little sad. What this was meant to be telling the reader passing by heavens only knows. Even bloomin' lovely art by Frazer Irving can't save it.

Now fair to say all of this is booked end by two beauties with Wagner and MacNeil returning the Chief Judge's Man and Grant and Ranson providing one of my fav Anderson stories (and that's saying quite a lot) and the best for some time opening R*evolution.

Prog 1264 has those two beauties too but much nice company. Sinister Dexter is a much better ongoing series with a done in one than Tor Cyan. The series is designed to do done in ones and tell the casual reader a lot about what to expect from the comic. There's a decent Future Shock by Spurrier and Cook instead of Tales of Telguuth - and kinda trying to be edgy in the way of Reefer Madness by having sex in it but in a far more story based way so I'm cool with that.

Than rather than another done in one it has what I feel is a much need thing in a 'Jump on' the first part of a new series. Now in this case the new series if Killer one of my least favourite thrills but you know what the openning episode is actually not bad.

So yeah not only is Prog 1264 a lot better than 1263. Its a better 'Jump on' Prog too!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 September, 2019, 12:40:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The final line-up of 2001 shows some improvement. Largely due to Dredd really picking up. We're starting to see less Wagner and new writers are coming in but they are by and large doing a solid job. 'On Chief Judge's Service' does a wonderful switcheroo at the end, one I'd delightfully forgotten. Wagner's other longer form story is 'Lost in Cyberspace' a fun story with Ian Gibson. Around these we have one offs by Wagner, Rennie and Morrison (R) all of which work really well.

So along with an upswing in Dredd we have Dante replaced by Anderson R*evolution which...

QuoteNow again this might be me misreading the tea leaves but I kinda have the impression that people aren't that impressed by 'R*Evolution'. Now its safe to assume that people love the art 'cos quite franky its typically magnificent for Arthur Ranson. Christ on a bike that man is an incredible talent, but what do folk think of the story?

Personally I loved it. It combined many of the same themes that have been running in Anderson for a while, yet felt like much more of a romp as well. It was crammed with great ideas and the script played to artists strenghts like few others do, meaning at times the whole thing was breath-taking. Not just cos of the art in and of itself, but the way the writer used that to create stunning flights of fancy. The space pirates on bikes, Anderson entering the mind of the deformed villian, the apes swinging around and so many more besides. It fair zipped along too, with a wonderful pace. In less skillful hands this might have left it feeling a bit directionless and haphazard, but created by two skilled craftsmen it had the feel an old Saturday morning serial, or even a classic Doctor Who, unhampered by budget.

Ok so I'm kinda predisposed to enjoy stories that have so much gorilla action but I don't think that's it I think sad though I am that Anderson would seem to move exclusively to the Megazine now (damn I wish there was trades of this later stuff) after this the story left 2000ad on a real high.

Fantastical stuff

I've not changed my opinion about since 2010 it would seem.

Sinister Dexter backs this up with some brilliant shorts. There's some servicable one off as ever in 2001.

Finally we have Killer which I think tries to be a great definative 2000ad strip and by doing so just turns into a bit of a 2000ad cliche... oh look 2010 me covers that one as well.

Quote'The Killers' have split up apparently and I personally rejoice this as I found them such a cliched hackneyed band... which leads me nicely to 'Killer' in 2000ad.

Sometimes I avoid reviewing stuff I just don't like as its all so negative but I think there's points to be made here. Steve Moore over the time of Andy Diggle's editorship has shown time and again that he's awash with ideas. He turns out so many 'Future Shocks' and for me the less enjoyable 'Tales of Telguuth' that its clear the fella is just full of the things. This does leave me to wonder why 'Killer' ever got off the ground therefore.

It feels so cliched and formulaic that its untrue. Every element felt like a 2000ad cliche, every aspect tired and used so often that it was worn to the nub. Its almost as if Andy Diggle and him got together and said lets try to create the generic 2000ad story. Lets take every theme and idea that's been used before and see if we can make a archetype for what a 2000ad story is all about. Its not the worst thing I've read in 2000ad by any stretch of the imagination buts its one of the least inspiring or intriguing which in some ways might be worse?

Maybe its a heroic failure, maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it just didn't work?

So we still have problems but at least we're moving on.... speaking of which 2001 has come to an end and next time we'll be looking at the year and in doing so the end of Andy Diggle's term as Tharg's little helper.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 September, 2019, 09:07:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2001 - A thrill oddity

Before I start I must of course apologise for the bloody awful and I imagine much over used, play on words... I know I shouldn't of, but hey what ya going to do?

Anyway as ever with these things lets look back to what I predicted 2001 would be like at the end of 'last year'

QuoteI think 2001 will be a thrill odyssey in a similar vien. A mixed bag to say the least, no party like 1999, but not a bad year. There will be too many misses to sit alongside numerous hits that I believe will be on the way.

Jez I can't help myself can I!

Anyway not a bad prediction, but I think 2001 is actually weaker than 2000. While it has some very strong thrills, it has a lot of stinkers to and the phase between 1250 and 1262 is a particularly weak period for me.

When reviewing 2001 its almost impossible not to use it as a review of Andy Diggle's tenour as Tharg's little helper. The things is that might be a little unfair. Firstly as with 2000 its a time of massive upheaval. Secondly probably Andy D's greatest achievement in the role was bringing in such a wealth of new artistic talent. He does a magnificent job on that front and one that will serve the Prog well for years to come. Most of that work was last year however.

Thirdly, whether by design our not, the holy trinity of Dredd, Dante and Dexter (Sinister ...) isn't quite as available to him, or not as strong. Dredd starts to see Wagner withdraw from his ever presence. While many of the other writers coming on do a decent job they haven't quite found their feet yet and in Helter Skelter we have a very weak Dredd story.

When Dante is in the Prog its magnificent but its not in as much as it has been. Sinister Dexter is good but lacks one of the big punch stories. These three are still strong and still a great spine, just there's a bit more space around them. And that space is a little hit and miss.

The miss, well Tor Cyan tickles someones funny bone, just not mine. ABC Warriors is beautiful but disappointing, Love like Blood and Pussyfoot 5 prove that John Smith is human. Durham Red is too damned shiny and Killer too damn cliche. The trouble is that's not them all, but it will do.

The highs, well there's more Buttonman so that's a delight, brilliant Anderson and the aforementioned trinity of holy. Dredd has good chunks of delight it should be noted.

There's some middle ground to. Its a real balance and sadly I'm beginning to expect more. What saves 2001 from being proclaimed a bit of a miss. Well its that wonderful bit of design first seen on the glorious cover to Prog 1234. Andy makes up for that horrible mast head by bringing us the best logo the Galaxy has ever seen. Well done that man.

So anyway way Andy D is out the door and what I assume is an impossibly young* Matt Smith steps up to bare Tharg's yoke. He'll bare it well, he'll bare it long, but he'll have to learnt to take the burden. As I recall 2002 will be another mixed bag as Matt Smith finds his mojo. I think Dante all but leaves us and they'll be some rough with the smooth. Mind have to say recent 'Thrill of the Future' give me hope that this might not be as rocky as I remember it in my old addled noggin. Lets find out together huh.

*[Normalsizefont] He must have been young as he still looks bloody young 20 years later... maybe Simon Davis painted a picture of him that hides in an Oxford attic slowly aging and getting bitter? [\Normalsizefont]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2019, 09:49:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 2001ad

Well this bodes well doesn't it.

Okay so lets say it Bad Company doesn't start great (things won't improve as I recall). That aside end of year Prog that really marks the start of 2002. One great Dredd - Wagner and Staples return Slick Dickens, one okay one by Rennie and Kennedy. This will be kinda emblematic of Dredd this year I susepct as the new breed start to find their feet.

Bryan Talbot proves how wonderfully his art can convey story and the story he conveys wordlessly is decent. Sinister Dexter provide a Christmas bullseye.

We then get three stories that will join Dredd and Bad Company onto 2002 and this is where all the optimism comes in. I really enjoy the drug fuelled psychedelic trip that is Storming Heaven, well I did last time I read it and this opener by Gordon R with just sublime art from Fraser Irving shows that should hold. Dante is in sooner than expected and what a delight... well okay so Dante is crushed and broken, lost and without hope. Its dark and brilliant.

But star of the show is the Earth shattering, mankind dismissing violence fest that is SHAKARA! If for no other reason than

1) There a lot more red in it than I remember
2) I'd also forgotten I'd got the splash page in this issue signed by Henry Flint and Robbie Morrison so that was a very nice surprise.

Of course there's not 'no other reason'  as the other reason is its bloomin' a mindless delight and utterly wonderful.

So yeah they may be keeping bad company but with these and Dredd we'll be okay - right?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 12 September, 2019, 03:39:41 AM
With me re-read of Shakara recently (I never read the first arc) I can concur, Shakara is just brilliant. Red is later joined by Green ending with Blue.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 12 September, 2019, 03:02:39 PM
I very distinctly remember that first series of Shakara running in the Prog. It coincided with me first taking out a subscription to 2000AD and getting it delivered to my own flat, as opposed to picking up stacks of Progs from my parents' house in University holidays. And it was so effin' good.

The Smith era neatly marks out the point when I became an 'adult' 2000AD fan, not just someone still reading what I thought of as my big brother's comics. (although he'd basically stopped reading 2000AD around Prog 1000, when he left the country. I don't think it was because of the state of the Prog at the time, but you never know.)

My recollection going forward is that you're about to climb a giant hill of awesomeness, with a few stumbles on the way but basically reaching a thrill plateau in 1-2 years. I look forward to reading your thoughts!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 September, 2019, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 12 September, 2019, 03:39:41 AM
With me re-read of Shakara recently (I never read the first arc) I can concur, Shakara is just brilliant. Red is later joined by Green ending with Blue.

I'd forgotten the green - have to be honest can't wait to get to the later Shakara - as I recall the series just goes from strenght to strenght.

Quote from: AlexF on 12 September, 2019, 03:02:39 PM
My recollection going forward is that you're about to climb a giant hill of awesomeness, with a few stumbles on the way but basically reaching a thrill plateau in 1-2 years. I look forward to reading your thoughts!

That pretty much nails my expectation and the stumbles are individual stories rather than periods of any significence. Looking forward to finding out.

Just a quick fly by to preclaim another BRILLIANT thing about Shakara. The recap box, which for other gives us a 100(ish) word summary of a series for Shakara just says

QuoteUnknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form Unknown life form Unknown life form unknown life form

Genius.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 September, 2019, 09:23:36 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The first relaunch Prog of 2002 comes after only 7 issues (8 if you count Prog 2002 ad). Its a Diggle-era-esque thrill sized set of stories. The irony being that the begining of Matt Smith's time as Tharg's Little Helper delivers 'the rocket fuel shot of thrillpower*' better than anything from Diggle's actual time in charge. Of course in times of transition such as these you have to assume the predecessor has much to do with the early material in their successors time, but we'll never know how much and how much a hand Matt Smith as Assistant Tharg's Little Helper at the end of Andy D's term.

Anyway enough blatter, its a time of perfect tight short sharp thrills. The Zenith of Diggle's time, out of time.

There's some solid done in one Dredd's from ensemble writing cast of non-Wagers. Then we get two belters.

Storming Heaven an 8 parter in essense covers a LOT of ground. A tale of the raise of heroes fresh from the summer of love. The twisting of that by evil and self interest. The destruction that brings and the dawning of the age of aqurious to wrap it all up. Its just like Love like Blood in that sense. Its covering so much its episode's at times feel like plot summaries more than parts of a story. The drug fueled theme of this story makes this work in this case however and its blistering, ugly fun exquisitly rendered by Fraser Irving. This thrill just works.

Shakara goes a different route to make the compacted space it has work. It keeps things simple and enigmatic. An everyday tale of interstella revenge as the surviving member of ??? finds increasing Kirbyesque ways of tearing through those that lead their race ??? to its bitter end. What it doesn't have space for it leaves aside to keep to this wonderfully basic formula. In doing this the rocket fuelled designs of Henry Flint reign supreme and its an absolute delight.

Of course it couldn't sustain that format and this one develops into a firm favourite and I can't wait - but seem to recall I'll have to - for this to come back.

There's some nice bits and bobs backing two up, and some average and then there's Bad Company 2002 which sadly is the only shortcoming in this otherwise consistantly great series. This one seems to want to set something else up and might have worked if it had. As it stands however it has no reason. The ideas have been covered, Kano gains nothing and the release of Danny from the Krool Heart has no purpose, reason or meaning. Its a real let down.

Overall though this is a great start to 2002.

A nice aside is in Prog 1277 we get Alan Grant set up a cool looking Crystal Skull hooded assasin type. Taking Dredd down and threatening to finish it off at some unstated time ... my shoddy memory means I genuinely can't remember if this gets fulfilled or if this thread is left hanging. So I get to enjoy this all over again... maybe...

*[normalfontsize] Accepting the reason for the size of thrills wasn't the above misquoted editoral edict - but the desire for short sharp punches of thrillpower was still in that manifesto.[\normalfontsize]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 September, 2019, 05:58:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1280 - 25, feeling all grown up and full of yourself.

When you're 25 you (I) feel like you're there, in your prime, know what you and the world are all about and sneer at the follys of your (my) youth and those about you (me) then. 2000ad 25th birthday prog, that's you that is, that's you when your were 25 and all puffed up.

Don't get me wrong it has grown up into a pretty handsome young buck and its gets got much to be proud of. But its indugling itself a little too much. Joying a bit too much of lifes other side and not always paying attention to whats important. Overall its doing okay but at times its lets its feeling of self cool just go a little over the top.

Prog 1280 is this. I shows how cool it can really be. It has a glorious double sized Dredd, as Joe packs up this apartment in Rowdy Yates. Rico moves in and brings some perps along with him for some action at the end. It has a fun Dante as Nikolai and the Countess pull a fast one for the bounty on Dante and an Arbatov suffers as ever.

In between this however the Prog takes a bad trip to its 25th celebratory party and while its antics are good for a few cheap laughs some of its targets feel a little off. Its not poking fun at itself, it feels like its poking fun at those who have been good to it in its past. And others that might have been a little unfortunate, but I'm sure meant well and tried and even if they failed. All feels a bit rum for the comic itself to be sneering quite so much and quite so publically.

Still the Prog's 25 now and while it still has its vein indulgences from time to time, its smart enough to know when it needs to it  to get on with the hard graft and knuckle down. By Prog 1281 it does just that. More great Dredd, more great Dante*, I love the opening episode to Atavar** a new thrill and very nice Sinister Dexter. The real hard work is of course finding the new talent to sustain all this and as Tharg resurrects Terror Tales to help do this Matt Smith clearly has Andy Diggle's talent and drafts Dom Reardon for the first time (see *) to add to his ranks.

So we'll forgive this cocky young turk its odd self important, self indulgences as long it gets back to the hard work and good stuff quick enough as it does here.

*[Normalfontsize] Showing that if you do indulge yourself with the other side of life a little too much in your youth you can completely mess with your mind and memory. I could have sworn we didn't get too much Dante this year... so far 2002 is proving what a shocking memory I have! [\Normalfontsize]

**[Normalfontsize] I'm pretty sure I'll come back to this when Atavar finishes - as of this time I don't think it quite sustains the quality of this opener. [\Normalfontsize]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 September, 2019, 09:41:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2002 A year in 8 Progs

So we're not even out of April and we're about to arrive at our second launch Prog. 8 Progs into the new year we hit the 25th Birthday and I get why that was a launch Prog BUT then just 8 Progs later we're wrapping things up again. Given the amount of filler - a lot of Future Shocks (mixed bag) and lots of Tales of Tellytubbyland* (increasingly diminishing returns) I'm left to wonder if the 25th just came a bit to early into Matt Smith rein and he and the thrills just weren't quite ready and the schedule got the better of our young Tharg's little helper?

Who knows not me. But this little stretch feels a little listless if I'm honest.

There's some great to middling Dredd, some pretty good but not as good as I remember Dante** to back up the filler and then Atavar which I promised to get back to.

I quite like it, great art by Richard Elson and a decent story by Dan Abnett. The thing is I thing I remember where this goes (see below) and it takes the premise of the human race's legacy a senseless destructive force and the human cloned back to try to help rid the these evil creations to quite interesting place. So while this thrill might be meant to stand alone if needs be I find it hard to read as anything other than set up and scene setting. Shame as I think alone it would be quite an interesting premise... would it?

*[Normalfontsize] Sorry I just can never remember how to spell it and I'm feeling too lazy tonight to even copy and paste it from somewhere [\Normalfontsize]

**[Normalfontsize] Well since I don't remember there being much Dante at this point as discussed my memory counts for bobbins! [\Normalfontsize]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Link Prime on 26 September, 2019, 09:45:09 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 25 September, 2019, 09:41:40 PM
Atavar which I promised to get back to.

So while this thrill might be meant to stand alone if needs be I find it hard to read as anything other than set up and scene setting. Shame as I think alone it would be quite an interesting premise... would it?


I remember being really surprised when the 2nd series was printed - really thought that it was a (very decent) one and done.

It's an underrated slice of Abnett sci-fi gold, and I will definitely revisit the three books at some stage.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2019, 09:12:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Well I'm guessing our next chunk is going to be 11 parts rather than 8 as 1289 gives use a new line up heading into 1300 I assuming... well it does doesn't anyway what do we have.

Well Prog 1289 gives us three to tee things up. Double Dredd as Wagner and Walker bring us 'Sin City'. A much lauded Dredd which I seem to recall is only okay. Lets see how we get on as I'm intrigued to see if I enjoy this more this time, certainly starts solidly.

We get more Wagner, this time alongside Fraser Irving on 'My Name is Death' now I remember this was the first time I've enjoyed the other JD since Necropolis and the last time until recent events - Deadworld and the post Dark Justice stuff. Again the begining certainly holds true and the pantomine is dialled down and the horror dialled up. The scene in 1291 was Death dispatches terrified children's home is utterly chilling.

Finally we get '13' as Mike Carey does another London lowlife with a wonderfully fully formed Andy Clarke. remember this one far more fondly than Carver Hale and again the opening episode bare this out as we get a thrilling and mysterious start, roughly laid out by a small time psychic and crook a fair better pov character.

In Prog 1290 these strips are ability backed up by Sinister Dexter and Si Spurriers' first series Bec and Kawl shows up. Si Spurrier will become a firm favourite of mine... Bec and Kawl ... well I stuggle with much of his early work as I recall.

Still over all as we hit the middle of 2002 we're getting into some very fine stuff overall. Lets see how it holds up as we head towards yet another re-launch.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: DrJomster on 29 September, 2019, 11:44:33 PM
We're nearly up to the point where this is available digitally. You could be about to cause a massive spike in digital sales, you know.

No pressure... ;)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 30 September, 2019, 03:47:27 AM
The 2002 xmas prog is the first digital edition available. Up until this point is where I did all my catch-up
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Rately on 30 September, 2019, 09:02:54 AM
Quote from: DrJomster on 29 September, 2019, 11:44:33 PM
We're nearly up to the point where this is available digitally. You could be about to cause a massive spike in digital sales, you know.

No pressure... ;)

I'd be asking for a percentage of the sales!  :P
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 September, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: DrJomster on 29 September, 2019, 11:44:33 PM
We're nearly up to the point where this is available digitally. You could be about to cause a massive spike in digital sales, you know.

No pressure... ;)

But of course since this is a self absorbed re-read thread the impact on others matters not a jot to me...

... as you poor buggers trying to read this nonsense will no doubt be able to testify!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 October, 2019, 09:10:37 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1294

Few things shift and interest me about this Prog. Firstly I'd completely forgotten Orlok was in Sin City. How the heck did that happen?!? My chuffin' memory.

Secondly the mystery of why David Bircham was selected to try to prove his storytelling chops my drawing an almost wordless Sinister Dexter story. It feels like an attempt to redemn him for some frankly poor storytelling in his big break in 'Slaine the Secret Commonwealth'. It doesn't work. I don't remember Orlok in Sin City but for some reason this story seems stained in my mind. My chuffin' memory.

Things start to shift in this Prog as the first of the new line up comes to a close as 'My name is death' comes of a close. Its been a fine story. There has been the odd moment of panto but its really well balanced.So in fact rather than being panto as Death has so often been played for in the past it a typically rich vein of dark, deeply dark humour that Wagner has made his own. Wagner's horror tale is perfectly present by Fraser Irving's absolutely pitch perfect art. The ending is a suitable balance as Anderson meets a very troubling fate and Death escapes his, a little comedy relief and off we got to the Cursed Earth. Its been an absolutely smashing story.

Intrigued now how quickly this once proud line-up will fare with a change. Tor Cyan coming back doesn't bode well.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 October, 2019, 09:51:02 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Comics with backbone.

So since 1289 we've seen the thrills fall away. Bec and Kawl, came, impressed no one (well not me anyway) and slipped quickly aside (to come back soon as I recall). Death shined darkly and briefly. To be replaced by Tor Cyan seeming to confusion a desire from folks to see more Rogue Trooper with a need to force a convaluted link between Tor and Rogue. It was all very clunky.

There some okay Future Shocks a good Terror Tale or two and Sinister Dexter pops in and out with some fine thrills.

While all these swirl around Tharg's organ its delightful that there's a firm spine holding up his end. Both 13 and Dredd Sin City are great. Sin Cityis good Dredd. I don't think its the best Dredd but its really good. There's a lot going on and while Kev Walker gives it wonderful solidity, the story does run to all sorts of places and corners. Its suits the theme but can make it a little messy... and I am left wondering what happened to Marsha, did she get out of Denry? I love the final fight with Muerte at the end after all that chaos all that evil that Dredd just takes him down. No messing, just Dredd. Nice story.

As is 13 which again starts by throwing lots of things around as our ne'er-do-well 'hero' encounters more and more challenges. Narky bouncer, hard bald men, crazy alien(ish) dog thingies, bent not coppers and magic disappearing handcuffs. While all this is going on though a story by Mike Carey is defty being crafted in the background. Its a good solid story as we learn about the world from Joe's mysterious gost amazonian, held in a peral and just waiting to get solid to unleash here full ... well read it and find out. Iyts well worth it. The art from Andy Clarke is also solid and real. Its delightful stuff.

So yes while all around it is spinning and swirling - sometimes in needlessly convulted ways - its delightful to have such solid reliable thrills providing tough muscular excitment providing a spine for it all.

Mind when you look at the line-up for 1300 just around the corner  looks like we're going to have the spine and all the lovely bits as well... lets see after a wee break...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 02 October, 2019, 10:18:23 PM
I loved 13/Thirteen - a real favorite.

I really wanted Bec & Kawl to work, but never really engaged that strongly with it.

I wish Tor Cyan had remained as a side character in Mercy Heights, and that there'd been no explanation as to why he looked like a G.I., or that if there had to be an origin story it would have nothing to do with Rogue Trooper. 

So many hospital dramas abandoned...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 14 October, 2019, 11:10:44 AM
Yeah, Sci Fi hospital dramas really ought to work in 2000AD - I wonder if the problem is that no writers in a position to deliver such a strip have actually worked as medical professionals or even in a hospital setting - I think it's one of those things where you need a bit of real-world knowledge to bring a story to life.

Anyway, on to Prog 1300 and beyond - thrills are going to start ramping up, I'm sure of it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 October, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Sorry I've been away so long, not quite sure how that happened I only read Walt Simonson's Orion and three weeks seems to have past anyway back to business...

Quote from: AlexF on 14 October, 2019, 11:10:44 AM
Anyway, on to Prog 1300 and beyond - thrills are going to start ramping up, I'm sure of it!

Damn right they do. Okay so I could bleat on and on about how I don't like it when we only have three thrills, but that'll get tired quickly during these times I suspect. So can we just accept that I think a good launch Prog is all about showing the strength of the Prog through its diversity and move on can we...

oh you have... okay ...

Anyway the three thrills in Prog 1300 are absolute stonkers. Dredd's 'Blood and Duty' by our current Dredd providers Wagner and MacNeil show us just how long they have been at the very top of their game. This is just brilliant. Wagner doing his still and socially impedent Joe this time facing his greatest fear family affection. Its masterful and neatly resolves an issue discussed somewhere in these parts recently just how did Rico have a young daughter if he'd be serving 20 on Titan. Just classic stuff.

As to be honest Wagner and Ezquerra's Roadhouse openning. Tight fine action, buoyed by tight fine dialogue and wonderfully lack there of when needed and then we fall into a world of... well we'll get to that.

These stalwards are joined by a new thrill... well of course its not as VCs comes back after.... well a very long time 20 plus years. Now I'll say it here and be done I'm assuming if you look back to the early days of this thread you'll see I'm that rarest of beasts a non-fan of the first VCs story. This return however is something I've really been looking forward to as I recall Dabnett makes it an absolute delight and this opener suggest I won't be disappointed. Okay so this strip is so associated in my mind with Anthony Williams that I forgot that Henry Flint did this first story (pretty unforgivable I know) that seeing his glorious art was quite a shock and once I'd settled into it a very nice one of course. This strip just goes to show that you can hand a strip onto totally new creators and they can both keep it in the vein of the original but us it in very different ways. This time giving it tight plotting and characters!

Anyway what a lovely return to the Prog and with another example of handing a strip to new creators and them making it an utter success joins this line up next time as Grennie and Staz Johnson start a run on Rogue Trooper I remember far more fondly than the original. So up and up and ... well yes Bison but maybe I'll talk more about that in a bit but boy the openner to that is hard reading!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 October, 2019, 09:14:49 PM
Just a quickie, issue 1305 in a nice little two parter by Grennie called 'Give me liberty' (block declares independance) we get reference to he who can't be named Sc*j*.

So the forum is creeping into life in the Prog. Certainly the first time I've noticed...I think... cool.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 October, 2019, 09:25:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Haven't done one of these for a while but its time for some quick thoughts on the run up to 1313

1. Roadhouse is a pretty good, but not great Strontium Dog

2. But why did it look weird in black and white? Black and white Carlos is great... but this looked weird to my eyes for some reason?

3. NuOldRogue wasn't as good as I remember. Think this run of shorts sets up plot lines that will see Grennie Trooper find its feet. Its just not there yet

4. Simon Coleby is back in the Prog after a very long time (or it certainly feels like it)

5. This art is in a very weird place between the early very different stuff and the new magnifcent stuff... its kinda cluttered at this point.

6. NuVCs is a lot short than I remember (and the Henry Flint art) but its solid, gripping and tight. I enjoyed this ... but a bit like NuOldRogue not quite as much as I remember. I think this one develops also.

7. Its not all nostaglia thrills there's Bison too...

8. Its not as bad as the first episode made it appear it would be...

9.... but its still pretty bad. Placing a 90s 2000ad male macho charmless dick hero into a female's body does not make them interesting.

10. Placing a 90s 2000ad female macho charmless dick of a villian into a man body does not make them interesting... essentially the gender swopping might have been a good way to take a story.... just not this story. So utterly lacking in character.

11. There so great Dredd during this time I'm particularly fond of A Tree Grows in Elia Kazan in Prog 1302, though maybe Siku's art isn't the most appropriate.

12. Mind we get Mike McMahon back in Prog 1308's Voice Off... not the best story alas.

13. Steve Parkhouse on Sinister Dexter = WAYHEY

14. The rest of Sinister Dexter is pretty fun here too.

15. Scrap is a bit weird... not in the interesting way I just don't quite know what to make of it. Which I think can be said for a lot of early Spurrioso work for Tharg.

16. I forgot to mention Staz Johnson on Rogue Trooper. I think he does an astonishing job on the episodes he does. At times you see the Gibbons, at times you see the Wilson, at times you see the Ewins but you also always see the Johnson (giggle) an astonishing balancing act.

17.... there's almost certainly a 17 but I'm getting a bit bored now.

18. If you've made it this far I imagine you are to... so we go and do something else... I might get some ice cream...

This has been a solid run of Progs. Maybe not quite living up to the expectation set in 1300 and 1301 but solidly entertaining all the same... not the final run of the year... with I think a bit of a fav of mine starting and I think some solid back up... lets see if we can end the year in a high (seas).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 October, 2019, 10:07:59 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Matt Smith - the writers Andy Diggle?

A wee while ago I commented how though I have significent issues with Andy Diggles time as Tharg's little helper the one crowning trimpuh its diffiuclt to ignore is the raft of fresh artistic blood he brought to the Prog. His brief tenure was an incredible period of new artistic talent.

The question I'm now forming in my mind based on Prog 1313 is whether Matt Smith is going to do the same thing with writers. Already in his sort time tending to Tharg's ever need we're seen Si Spurrioso steps up from Future Shocks (and the like). Al Ewing is given to us. Then in Prog 1313 we get a one two hit.

Firstly Rob Williams makes his bow with a ... well slighty disorientating opening part to Asylum. Things gets better after this and I think maybe we're meant to be a bit exposed and wondering here. But hey ROB WILLIAMS everyone.

An altogether more confident debut is made by Ian Edginton. Now I believe our Edge had been working on US comics and so maybe its no surprise its such an accomplished start. But wow the opening to Red Seas is fantastic (and it gets better) and lets be honest as I've said before if the first story you flop in front of Tharg to serve his organ is call 'Red Seas - Under the Banner of King Death' you know the pitch is in and its all gravey from there. Just a brilliant title and its all before Pirates of the Caribeen. This is one of my all time fav thrills and its a magnificent start.

Anyway much to talk about coming out of the all new thrills 1313. but I'll come back to lap at Thargs thrill teat later. For now we are on a watching brief to see if Matt Smith brings more ecribes our way.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 October, 2019, 09:25:35 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

So there we have it 2002 ends with a very solid line up. The debut writer's stories continue as they started really... well okay Red Seas does just an effortlessly confident fully formed strip that capture hijink, high adventure and Devil may care* just wonderfully. Its such a great story and the art by the Mighty Yeowell if sublime.

Asylum finds firmer ground, but at times it feels well trodden. There one episode in the middle there that is very Nemesis, or more Torquemada I suppose. At times it spins off a little, but never too far. The art by Boo Cook is a little fussy at this stage for my tastes but I see why people love it.

All this is supported by some very nice Wagner Dredd, ability assisted by GRennie finding his Dredd voice quite nicely. There a very silly and deeply entertaining Sinister Dexter story that I have a soft spot as or dastardly duo blast off with Billi and a detailed space pilot into deep space hi-jinks.

There's that word again. Hi-jinks is a good word to describe the last few issues of 2002. Everything seems to have relaxed a little and to be enjoying itself. That's not to say its disposible, just fun and thrilling...

...maybe Past Imperfect takes that relaxation a little too far coming across as lazy. The concept of a twist in history its consequences just makes for slightly predictable stuff and another attempt by Tharg to put a spin on the one off that just feels to restrict things a little too much for its own good.

But its barely important enough to put a dampener on this lovely end to the year.

And so there we are end of the year, which can only mean one thing next time...

*[Normalfontsize] And indeed he did, didn't he [\Normalfontsize]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 October, 2019, 05:43:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2002 - The same different hands

Let's look through the 'Last Year Predictions' shaped window shall we.

QuoteAs I recall 2002 will be another mixed bag as Matt Smith finds his mojo. I think Dante all but leaves us and they'll be some rough with the smooth. Mind have to say recent 'Thrill of the Future' give me hope that this might not be as rocky as I remember it in my old addled noggin. Lets find out together huh.

I'm getting good at this prediction game as I think I got that pretty spot on. Its still a bit rocky, but not as rocky as 2001. Which is pretty impressive when you consider the change in Tharg's little helpers, from David 'Give the man a break he did a great job' Bishop, to Andy 'Well it wasn't all that great but man look at the artist talent he brought in' Diggle, to Matt 'Developing into the greatest wielder of Tharg's Organ ever' Smith. There's been a change in owner from someone who didn't care, to Rebellion who have cared as much as most of us.... and are minted so can prove it! A change in location came with that from London to Oxford.

That's a lot to deal with so while 1999 was a Zenith as David 'See above' Bishop just found the magic formula and got the Prog singing, a slight bit of upheaval is to be expected. That said the transition from Andy 'See above' Diggle to Matt 'You got it by now' Smith is actually very smooth and feels more like a continuation of growth and development.

The artist stable well and truly bolstered, Matt Smith seems to focus on getting fresh writing talent in, or making more use of those with their feet already in the door. The strips could be said to call a little too much on the safety net of nostgalia. Rogue back, VCs back, Bad Company back, but that is understandable. Matt is pretty young at this point, but uses these old time favourites to actually provide a good foundation to launch an exciting number of fantastic new strips. Shakara and Red Seas being the most notable. There is also a nice trend on multiple episode single run stories which really adds to the spice.

This mix is helpful as both Wagner Dredd and Dante are less present than previous years. Mind Matt Smith has the good sense to call Sinister Dexter back up to regular duty. The mix in 2002 is just so exciting and energetic. Of course there's some absolute clunkers in there, but in a mix like this, in the year of thrills that provides that's so much more acceptable than the previous year...

... you know the more I type the more I think that its not just a steady period of growth and development its a step change and 2002 is a real stride forward. A confident first step from a new head of Thrills.

As for a look ahead. Well I'm expecting 2003 to be much of the same. The thrills of the future of late emphasis that. VCs (with Anthony Williams as expected in my mind!) alongside Callabistics Inc. We'll still have limited Dante (I think) but Sinister Dexter will do a stirling shift. There's a few multi-part one offs I think are coming, so I fully expect the same exciting energetic mix, peppered with missteps it will be easy to forgive.

I'm really excited to find out and so without much more a do I'd better get to the nerd cave and dig into that rich 2003 vein. Thanks 2002 its been fun... but I think 2003 will really get the size and shape of things right quickly...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 October, 2019, 08:05:56 AM
Size matters

2003 has already disappointed. When digging them out the nerdcave I fully expected them to have swelled to full and proper size. Sure maybe a little shorter but it the width that makes them feel so much more substancial when in hand. Alas Tharg's Organ 2003 continues to be slighty disappointing in size. Still its want you do with it I guess.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 27 October, 2019, 08:19:11 AM
This is the point from where I have over time purchased all the digital versions. Even the size on the digital versions just did not work for me  :D
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 October, 2019, 09:21:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1323

whow what's all this skipping Prog 2003ad... well yes and here's why. Its a fine Prog, lots of content and most of it good, but its just that, its just a Prog. Where as Prog 2000ad, 2001ad and 2002ad felt more like annuals, big special things, typically with an old long lost thrill or two returning, Prog 2003ad truly became the annual Prog of the future the launch of the new year with all its thril... well hold on it doesn't even do that.

In Prog 2003 are:

Dredd - Start of Aliens cross over Incubus
VCs - Wonderful one off
Rogue Trooper - decent world building one off
Slaine - Starting the first book of invasion
Sinister Dexter - Text short story - one off
Nikolai Dante - First part of Hell and High Water but curiously a prologue that serves as a one off if needed
Caballistics Inc - New thrill which I've no doubt I'll be talking more about in the future
Banzai Battalion - One off
Some lovely text filler

So while both Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante will appear next week, Dante even carrying on the story in this issue, only three of the stories really spring forward from here. Its a great solid Prog much like the annuals of old... and I've said that before haven't I and I'm contradicting myself from above. Its infact really like the annuals of old in that its like a Now record pulling together all the hits from last year, rather than a greatest hits from the past.

Now by the time we get to Prog 1323 the first batch of thrills is truly in full swing and we learn a little about setting things up for the future something rotten (or just plain rotten in some folks eyes...).

Incubus is we can now see as the disposible fun it is. Caballistics Inc is referencing Doctor Who and settling in fine. Slaine 'Moloch' is reminding me that where as many see this as the redemption of Slaine for me it still doesn't work... I might come back to talk about this shortly. Dante 'Hell and Highwater' is quickly shaping into the mini-classic I don't think many recognise it as, again very possibly more soon.

And then we get Sinister Dexter in a bit of a favourite of mine. 'Relode' as our gun totting murder monarchs blast into a Downlode of the past via a lovely Asterix tribute. Now why is this significent well in this 15 year older Downlode we still have Holy Mose Tanenbaum and this will come back to haunt our anti-heroes in ways that will be fascinating... well to me at least.

I love the whole alternative Moses stuff and I think the long form storytelling it crafts works really well. I'm in a minority. Now I've whittered about this in the past when I wrote a series of 'articles' for ECBT 2000ad before it became entirely belly aching* about Sinister Dexter BUT I doubt anyone remembers that nonsense. So I will be using this current platform for me whittering to note how often the required details of that storyline are recapped, to kinda prove a point - to no one but myself no doubt, this is a self absorbed re-read after all.

So yeah while I will be getting distracted and in some way Prog 1323 is a more significent Prog to me than Prog 2003ad none of that really matters. What really matters is that the year starts off with a very, very strong line up.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 October, 2019, 09:28:53 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

I probably shouldn't do this, as while its good to analyse and think about what's good about a strip, its not healthy to think too closely about why you don't enjoy something. Its best just to let these things go... but in reading Prog 1324 I was really struck by my issues with Slaine 'Book of Invasions' for some reason. So I'll share and repent later.

Firstly I'm just no convinced by the art. Clint Langley is clearly impressive, however to my eye nothing hangs together. Nothing seems to connect. Moments are caught but don't flow together or move. In this episode there's a violent and passionate battle between Slaine and Moloch ... but it doesn't convince or have the energy it deserves. I also have an issue by how over designed and shiney all the characters are. I've said it before everyone looks like they are from a Games Workshop poster.

I find it curious as the same artist using the same style I adore on ABC Warriors. Which just goes to show being a talented artist isn't enough, you need to be an artist on the right strip for you... or more specifically of course for your audience as these things are just so subjective.

So moving on from the art I have other significent issues with the script to. The same combat, the same visceral fight has the tension shattered by the Marvelesque combat dialogue. As Moloch just has to prove just how bad he is. I mean his design makes him look soooo bad, do this words need to over emphasise. Its as if Unca Pat doesn't trust his audience. In this example its all the more frustrating by the number of wordless panels that seem to get what's needed. But rather than create balance and space here they seem to throw focus on how needless the rest is.

Now I'm quite sure Nemesis and Torquemada to exactly that as well. The difference. Well first if Torq and Nemie have done it before, very often can't Pat Mills, maestro that he can be, do something different here. In Nemesis I role with it so convinced by the meladrama and characters. Here the same thing and it grates and infuriates. Of course it also highlights the subjective pleasure in story and scripting as well.

Pat Mills sticks with his tropes so often and while he doesn't do any of this laboured politicing here he will in this series as I recall and he plays another of his tricks as well.

Slaine defeats Moloch and thus the story is in a corner. Moloch is the big bad and so can't simply be defeated and so there some really cod hand waving to move things on. Pat Mills so capable of craft and guile, of wit and imagination simple goes for.

"We should kill him."
"We can't there's rules"
"Oh okay, so like we can't"
"Oh no you can't if you break the rules the Fomorians will be pissed and take over the world"
"What they're not trying that any..."
"No, no rules and we can't"
"I mean we just had to fight a bloody great battle against them and..."
"No no can't make them angry, bad form"

And so off he goes. Now I get pissed when folks call things 'lazy writing' I mean who am I to say what effort or otherwise has gone into something... but if I was ever to sight an example....

...but again I'm sure there are similar examples in stories I love.

Finally we get the forboding at the end. I mean its all so forboding. Niamh has the chills (well she should bloody well put some clothes on then - as should Slaine, they'll both catch their deaths) cos the big badly has been released and that will lead to terrible thing... or so she feels in her bones.

What the big baddy has been released - for whatever reason - and that makes you think something bad will happen... really, what really.... Jez don't ram it down our throats okay. Again it feels as if Pat Mills doesn't trust us here and just goes for such a hamfisted and direct way of pushing information at us, at trying to force emotional impact instead of crafting it.

Anyway sorry about that, I hope you'll forgive my negativity. It unnecessary but it just struck me so hard when reading this one I wanted to get it out. Why this episode of this series I don't know but I think for two reasons. Firstly these are two creators whose work I can love in other stories and so I found my reaction here really interesting.Secondly who cares about my opinion as I think for many this is a really redemptive story for Slaine and so I'm interested in why I don't find it so. Finally I'm a mean spirited bitter old goat so sulk it up.... oh actually... no please don't... come back.... please....
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 29 October, 2019, 08:07:40 AM
TBH Colin I think you pretty much nail my issues with Slaine.  It doesn't really seem to say anything new or fresh, rehashes the same ideas over and over again without really going anywhere.

I'm also in agreement on the art front.  Langley is an astounding artist and produces some fascinating work but for me it is too dense.  I struggle to follow his narrative logic which doesn't help when he is trying to make Mills' writing work.  That said, I do also have difficulties with his ABC work as well.  As a cover artist he is perfect.  It's one of the reasons I'm struggling with the most recent series of Defoe, the artwork makes the reader work too hard.

I wonder if part of this is a prejudice borne of years reading Tooth.  When you consider the artists that we have had down through the years (Bolland, Ezquerra, Gibbons, Gibson, McMahon, Wilson, Dillon, Smith, Jock, Coleby, Adlard, .... and this is just scratching the surface) their artwork has tended to do a lot of the lifting for the reader.  Even when they have been more experimental they have still retained that core need to support the reader.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not adverse to the variety that we are exposed to.  Nor do I view artists as static.  Jake Lynch is a prime example for me.  I couldn't get beside his work on Orlok but his more recent Dredd work is, for me, some of the best in the prog / meg at present.  I also agree with your point on artist to story matching.  Holden's work on the recent Traitor General story really did not work for me but I thought it was a perfect match for Counterfeit Girl.  Others may disagree and I respect their positions.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 29 October, 2019, 06:17:54 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 29 October, 2019, 08:07:40 AM
  Holden's work on the recent Traitor General story really did not work for me but I thought it was a perfect match for Counterfeit Girl. 

I agree,  PJ would indeed be a perfect match for Counterfeit Girl; alas he didn't draw it,  that was Rufus and Dom Regan.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 November, 2019, 09:24:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Some quick thoughts while Dredd vs Aliens has been rambling

1. Sinister Dexter Relode finishes well and sets up so much as Moses (alternative) plots for a future (ours)

2. That laboured bit of forshadowing I mentioned last time only takes one Prog to materialise and is very unshocking alas.

3. Dredd fighting an alien atop a train and sticking a flare into its gapping maul is the highlight of Dredd vs Aliens for me.

4. I took a while to warm to Caballistics Inc first time round and this time as Going Underground ends I see why. Its solid but the scheming bad guys in the team are a little hamfisted

5. The schemes in Dante Hell and Highwater are fantastic though

6. I'm no fan of Bec and Kawl at all I'm afraid.

7. Anthony Williams is perfect for V.C.s and the opening story of this run 'Look on the Bright Side' sets a series of glorious shorts.

8. The introduction of Mr Bones in part 8 of Incubus (Dredd vs Aliens) just shows that they have been throwing things at this story which ultimately no one knows quite how to make work

9. The end of Dante - Hell and Highwater sets up a wonderful potential, yet has a curious gap about the fate of Dante's wards that I know gets resolved but I wonder if it felt so at the time this came out. Still bit of a trimuph this one.

10. I thought we were done with Tales of Telguuth and I'll be honest these latter stories with art from Jon Haward make me wish we had.

11. Atavar II goes even more hard Sci-fi (maybe I never really get the distinction between types of sci-fi that seem so important to some in these parts) as it starts and I must admit I find a delight.

12. By Prog 1330 Incubus has turned into an Aliens invading Hall of Justice story for... reasons I guess.

13. And by Prog 1331 Mechanismos turn up... for reasons I guess.

14. Caballistics Inc returns as well, and doesn't feel very different yet. Its good, not great at this point, but Dredd dragging and ToT aside this is a solid line-up

15. By Prog 1334 I even dare to suggest that Henry Flint is getting bored with Dredd vs Aliens

16. I finally have more points that Incubus has parts. A LOVELY Jock cover (I have the Aliens dropping on Dredd one) and three stories wrapping up big... but Inclubus just seems to force a tired ending out. V.C.s drops a great cliffhanger as does Atavar II so they make up the weight.

And with that we get our first relaunch of 2003 - which I'll get to after this sceduled break.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 November, 2019, 09:44:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The first relaunch of 2003 is a pretty decent thing. Prog 1336 gives us three strips, Dredd and the trial of Orlok, ABC Warriors and Snow/Tiger. Prog 1337 sees Caballistics Inc and Interceptor join them.

What strikes me is quite the wonderful balance and variety on offer, yet in that classic 2000ad way there is a tone and style that permiates. I'll start with ABC Warriors as the three episodes I've read of this so far are some of Mills best for a while. I can be a bit hard on Unca Pat but its times like this, the beginning of Shadow Warriors remind you this incredible talent and imagination. Accompanied by Carlos, who I mustg admit I've never thought was a great fit for ABC Warriors we see similar themes and ideas just delievered with more precison, craft and energtic fun than so much of 2000ad's father work at this time.

The high tech chaos wonders of Mars are contrasted by Snow / Tiger ... interesting by another ex 2000ad editor I've not always had the kindest words for. But Snow / Tiger starts really well. Its a modern terrorist thriller and feels a little different in tone at first as it feels very contemporary ... but under that its adjacent to the future robots. Its tight, sharp and just like ABCs full of energetic fun.

Interceptor I seem to recall doesn't stay long but the first two part move at a brisk lively pace as alien battle in a hospital and a doctor gets caught in the middle. Again energy and fun drive the tale and it starts really nicely with lovely art by Steve Pugh.

Next Caballistics Inc adds its dark, horror blend to the mix. Again though energy and strong character sass runs through.

It takes GRennie and Paul Marshall's cute Cal opera Dredd to inject some out right humour to the mix in a fun tale. What I like about this line-up is while on the surface these are pretty different there is such a clear and typically 2000ad vein through them all and that's something I love about the Galaxy's Greatest. This might not be a hailed line-up. It wouldn't appear on anyones (well there's always someone - another joy of 2000ad is the diversity of fandom) all time list but its so satisfying solid and enjoyable, so full of that energy I've mentioned often before in this post.

Heck run of the mill 2000ad is streets ahead of the rest.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 November, 2019, 09:34:37 PM
Slipping in a quick one tonight. Been interesting to see how the none Wagner Dredd's are coming on. Grennie is coming on a treat and Progs 1339 - 1341 has a very strong three parter by Robbie Morrison - Hard Day's Night. Which sees Dredd take a rookie for his final exam, after just having lost this original examiner. Moreno the rookie is clearly out for revenge... but revenge for what? Its tight, sharp and gripping, aided by some great Patrick Goddard art its a minor trimpuh.

We also see the current line up start to wrap up at this time. Caballistics Inc ends a short story really well in Prog 1340 and the current book of ABC Warriors ends after only 6 episodes in 1341 and it remains immense fun to the end.

So with subs being brought on already can Tharg keep this excellent start to this season up?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 13 November, 2019, 12:22:09 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 November, 2019, 09:34:37 PM
Slipping in a quick one tonight.

And you had the energy to do a quick review too!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 13 November, 2019, 05:12:10 AM
This is the point from where I have all the digital progs. I enjoyed the Dredd vs Aliens story with some great Flint art.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 November, 2019, 09:18:04 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 13 November, 2019, 05:12:10 AM
This is the point from where I have all the digital progs. I enjoyed the Dredd vs Aliens story with some great Flint art.

Is Tharg still scanning or has the digital archive been there for a while?

Anyway its a good place to get on board as this is such a solid period of thrill power.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

There's nothing straightforward about straightforward thrills

The only real surprise during this period how short Snow / Tiger is its only 7 parts I thought it was longer... and I don't think it comes back. Does this mark the end of Andy Clarke's time in the Prog too? Shame if so. This is just a straightforward action piece, but pretty entertaining for that.

The other surprise is how long Interceptor is at 9 parts - I thought this one was much shorter like 'Scrap' and that car one, but not so. Its nothing to astonishing, its a fun character thrown into world beyond their comprehension and they have to learn to cope and bash the aliens. Writer Ian Edginton and artist Steve Pugh try to throw in some much needed diversity by making the lead a woman of colour. They do forget that by making her a pretty straightforward hardass action hero they do kinda reduce the impact of that alas. For all that I really enjoyed this thrill and was surprised I didn't really remember it.

As thrills come and go they are joined by more straightforward thrills. Rogue Trooper... which is a great action thriller and is only surprising in that its a really good Rogue Trooper story. We get some straightforward Sinister Dexter as well. But then straightforward Sinister Dexter is of course bloody good comics.

They only thing that's not solid and straightforward is Judge Dredd - Revenge of the Chief Judge's Man by Wagner and Burns. That is simply magnificent. And the far from straight forward Lobster Random which I'll talk more about next time...

...but these exceptional thrills are the exception at this time of solid, entertaining 2000ad stories. The thing is a time of solid dependable 2000ad stories only serves to remind you how lucky we are. See solid, straightforward action adventure from 2000ad is so comfortably ahead of 90% of the comics out there. This period has really done a job of making me reflect on the fact if half these strips (or more) than come out in 22 page format from Image or such I'd be raving about them. The time that Tharg gives us so much great stuff, so often can make us over look how good he is to us and this period mid 2003 has really do a job of making me reflect on that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 15 November, 2019, 02:55:55 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 14 November, 2019, 09:18:04 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 13 November, 2019, 05:12:10 AM
This is the point from where I have all the digital progs. I enjoyed the Dredd vs Aliens story with some great Flint art.

Is Tharg still scanning or has the digital archive been there for a while?

Anyway its a good place to get on board as this is such a solid period of thrill power.


The digital archive has now been existing for at least the last 5 years. They started releasing it per year on almost monthly basis and stopped when they reach 2003. It is a pity since I would like to go back to the point where I stopped buying the prog in 1995.

Yes this was a great time to get on board some solid thrills and the years to come was even better.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 November, 2019, 09:59:39 PM
So this excellent run comes to an end. Couple of points of note. I'm already wrong about Andy Clarke as here he is again introducing Kal Cutter in Sinister Dexter and now I think we get another story (at least by him) featuring Kal. Another surprise in this story is the introduction of Charon. For some reason I really wasn't expecting him so soon. Always felt more could have been done with him. Still that's a ways off.

Anyway that's all preamble. Welcome to
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

And as we head into a relaunch Prog at 1350 there is really only one thing to talk about... well given I kinda covered how good 'Revenge of the Chief Judges Man' is already and that's new thrill

Lobster Random

I love this thrill. Its quite brilliant and if I could get one creator back to finish a story in 2000ad it could very well be Si Spurrier to give us more of this glorious thrill... well maybe a beardo mage and this artist partner might edge it... anyway its great.

What has struck me is how this story of a aged expert torturer, with two additional lobster limbs grafted onto him and his fettish for robot lovin' is actually another example of a solid, dependable thrill...

...well okay its not is it, but there is a link I'll get to.

First though lets just revel in how this story offers something so untypical. Fair to say we have some of the characteristics of our lead already setting that up. But we have more. The story mianders quite wonderfully. From the simply magnificent opening episode when our led is rescued from a regression death that gives us possibly the best introduction to a character's past ever in the Prog. From here it quickly turns into an imaginative heist caper. Before ending as a bitter revenge thriller. All of these are balanced perfectly.

Si Spurriers bold and pulsating story maybe the star, but its brought so magnificently to life by Carl Critchlow's art. He seems almost born for this strip. I mean I love his work at the best of times, here though his tight earthy angles hold the story firm and keep it grounded and seemingly impossibly real. The chaotic and kinetic edges and shapes also push the story effortlessly to all the imaginative and mind expanding places it takes you to.

This glorious combination of art and story is no better exemplified than in the story's eighth episode when Lobster Randon loosens his connection to his dimension so he can pass through a wall. He has to hold himself together and pays the price for doing so as he loosens his grip all the pain he hasn't felt since being turned into a super solider is shaken loose too. The whole thing sounds extraordinary and in its delivery its superfically surreal and psychodelic. Yet so perfectly crafted its easy to follow, has emotional impact and feels natural and grounded.

Its just brilliant.

This combination of the extreme and 'crazy' and plain expert delivery makes it all so human, humourous and humunously good is also why it has elements of a 'typical' 2000ad thrill. For all the things Lobster Random is as described above he is also such a typically wonderful 2000ad character. In the stories of the 90s he'd have been a shallow badass. All clinched buttucks and crappy hard dialogue. Here he's from the leftfield where Tharg finds his best, but also a typical action bad ass, with a gloriously sharp line in wit and twisted wisdom. Yet he's also human and real hidden behind the kick ass fun. He's typically atypical in that way only a typical 2000ad story can manage.

This strip will be back relatively soon as I recall and I for one can't wait.

For now though after a short break we'll get back to some really typical 2000ad characters as 1350 brings us an all a list line up of Dredd, Slaine and Strontium Dog.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 November, 2019, 09:24:37 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Dearth and taxes - Prog 1350

Well I think I'll be slightly out of tune when it comes to the latest relaunch line-up based on Prog 1350. I seem to recall that Slaine - Book of Invasion is seen as a bit of a hit for many. A resurgence in the form of this classic series. Its doing nothing for at all. I'm just not a fan of Clint Langley's work on the series,  but I've been there and the second story 'Golamh' starts exactly were we left off and with the same issues.

On the other hand I seem to recall that 'The Satanist' by Wagner and Adlard before the was Adlard of course - is seen as that rarest of beasts as Wagner Dredd misfiring. I've really enjoyed it on past reads the start seems to support that view. But lets hucker down and talk about that in a bit when we're farther into it. I'll say now though I seem to find its boldly original attack on Joe a refreshing change.

Luckily I think there's something we can all agree on and Strontium Dog 'The Tax Dodge' is just an immensely fun story and plays delightfully into both Wagner's and the strips irreverent strenghts.

The issue with Prog 1350 is something I've whined about before. Just three thrills, all be it a classic, a really classic line-up just means that a launch Prog lacks that vital - well to me... and maybe not vital that's me over emphasizing for effect -  new thrill to fire the juices. The fact that these are such stonewall pillars of 2000ad gives the Prog a stayed feel, regardless of the strips qualities.

Mind Tharg makes up for that next time in a ... big ... way, but we'll come to that...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 28 November, 2019, 08:09:13 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 November, 2019, 09:24:37 PM
The issue with Prog 1350 is something I've whined about before. Just three thrills, all be it a classic, a really classic line-up just means that a launch Prog lacks that vital - well to me... and maybe not vital that's me over emphasizing for effect -  new thrill to fire the juices.
Definitely agree on this. I can see the logic - give readers a bigger chunk of the new story to get their teeth into - but the "not enough variety" trade-off is too much for me. Every jump-on should have five stories. Ideally including a Future Shock or other one-off to highlight Tharg's infinite variety.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 28 November, 2019, 09:14:08 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 November, 2019, 09:24:37 PM
Dearth and taxes

Nice!  :lol:
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 November, 2019, 11:38:00 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 28 November, 2019, 09:14:08 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 November, 2019, 09:24:37 PM
Dearth and taxes

Nice!  :lol:

Well I'm foolishly inspired by Funt Solo's genius 'Phases'... and trying to match those... its a mighty high hurdle and one I'm going to enjoy being tripped by, as I try to clear it many, many times I suspect.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 November, 2019, 09:33:44 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Altared Images

I'm tired and that's the best I can do. So unless I can get a Claire Grogan pun in here I'm going to be struggling. Anyway I'm here to discuss The Satanist . To my understanding one of the least popular Wagner Dredd's out there... Is that right?

Either way I quite like it. Its no classic and I find Charlie Adlard's art a little out of place in colour and on Dredd. His cover to Prog 1356 one of the 2000ad cover that always sticks in my mind when I think about misfiring covers. The flatness of Dredd's helmet is too tight to his nose on interiors... devil's in the details I guess... damn why didn't I... anyway I'm really looking forward to seeing his art develop inot Savage when that lands soonish I think. Here I'm just not convinced yet.

The story - for the first two thirds at least I really enjoy. I love the totally different feel it has - which may have rubbed some folks up the wrong way? The psychological toying with Dredd via Vienna finding a weakness few have explioted and while it made this read odd I get that as being the point. Cleverly Dredd is moved out of Mega City One to further emphasize the difference, having to let crimes slip by as it not his patch. He's a fish out of water and this makes the threat and his clear unease so effective and plausible.

I think the final act rather rushes things. The degree of ambiguity of Satan's actual nature is quite effective and plays well into the tone of uneasy generated into the first two thirds. Alas it ends with Dredd being as indefatigable as ever. Breaking chains with a force of will right left and centre. Lightening strikes with too much easy as the end and Vienna's fate could have been teased longer?

Still its a great Dredd sort for all, and because of all it atypical choices and a story I really enjoy for all its imperfections.

Elsewhere Bec and Krawl finish without ruffling feathers, or engaging me in any way. Slaine slams past like a screaming car, over bright headlights blinding you to the detail of what's going on. Still we get Sinister Dexter back with Simon Davis which starts to shift the balance back.

In Stontium Dog the story is such good fun as Johnny gets bound to his tax burden. Its joyous. The only downer is do you think the villains were going to be more Stix until John or Carlos decided otherwise. The Unrighteous Brothers seemed almost entirely interchangable with them?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 29 November, 2019, 09:45:45 PM
I think The Satanist has some great individual moments, buried amidst a story that, broadly, doesn't quite work.

But it's certainly no 'Awakening of Angels' or 'Star Drekk'.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 December, 2019, 09:26:14 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Big fish and small fliers

When I first read Leviathan about 10 years ago I pretty much nailed it. I was thinking I'd have a post here discussing it. The fact that its one of those glorious done in one masterpieces that 2000ad does so well. They aren't too common but when they land do they land. Anyway looking back at my previous thoughts I pretty much said all I want to and being a lazy chuff I'll do the ego filled self quote.

QuoteLets get it said right off the bat that Leviathan was bloody brillant, absolutely superb. It had a fantastic opening with the pan out to show the scale of the ship and from there we get a beginning, middle and end that as it stands needs to be left alone. Its a fantstic thrill and I'm very glad we have it. When people talk about how to package Cradlegrave since its too short for its own trade normally folk discuss adding other John Smith tales for obvious reasons. I think I'd rather see some kind of 2000ad Horror stories trade and have this and Cradlegrave sit together. While they are very different stories they both are so good that they'd sit really nicely together?

Anyway the question. Could Leviathan have been longer? I enjoyed my visit there so much and the characters we meet were so engaging I wanted there to be more and feel there could have been. As I say as it stands it needs to be left alone but if from conception it'd been planned as a longer thrill I'm sure there could have been more tales to tell to allow further exploration of this wonderful world.

Heck in my mind this could have been a four book story, each Chapter set in a different class. 'Leviathan: First Class', 'Leviathan:Second Class', 'Leviathan: Steerage' and 'Leviathan: Engine Room'. Essentially telling the same tale but giving it more time to explore the dark corners of the vessel and the people who inhabit them. As Lament pieces the clues behind the ships mysteries together. Cos lets face it Lament is such a great character he needs to be the glue that'd hold all this fantasy strip together.

Am I being greedy and should I just be grateful to have this fantastic strip as it stands or could we have seen the bolts and girders that constructed this most majestic of tales? Would this have stretched things too far and become a drag?

So having saved time and energy there I realised I could move onto another, smaller done in one masterpiece. Again like others on occasion Tharg's droid nail the small short form story. Again one I read for the first time 10 years ago and commented on here. There was no way I was going to be lazy enough to just self quote there to was there. After all in my festering older whittering I don't even mention its written by Si Spurri-o-so-good. That the story uses Frazer Irvings art to its magnificent best, all dark afterlife and meladramatic expression that just work perfectly. Its a delight. I'm even not sure I felt like I'd missed something thing this time and just rolled with it as the story it is. So there no way I'd just slop in my past dripplings is there...

...never underestimate how lazy I am.

QuoteI hate it when writers say that 'You just don't get it' when you don't like their story. I've done enough research into the reading experience to understand that writing is a shared experience. If the reader 'Just doesn't get it' its cos the writer 'just ain't told them' in a way that reader can understand. Whatever the writer intends is nothing until a reader has read his work and placed their understanding on it and only then do you have a story. However in the case of 'From Grace'...

...I just don't get it.

Kurt Vonnegut is my favourite author but I always suspect when I've finished one of his books I've missed a whole load of subtext. They're still a joy to read with the bits I do 'get' but I suspect there's more in there. I kinda think that might be the case here.

On my reading this is an incredibly simple story were the title says it all really. Its lush to look at, a pleasure to read and constructed in a really interesting manner that alway kept me interested.

It's just that having finished I felt there must be more to it that I was missing. This didn't hamper my enjoyment of it but left the experience feeling a little empty.

So at least that will leave me some time to mention a few points of note from the Progs leading into 2003's last relaunch Prog. Like

1. Leigh Gallagher's art first appears (I think) and while not quite there yet is pretty good.

2. There's a GREAT Sinister Dexter 6 parter with lush, absolutely lush Simon Davies art. In 'Junk Bond' Rocky is about to wed Wendy when Mangapore villians and therefore of course Carrie Hosanne get included and swords are drawn in such a fun way.

3. Grennie does a great job on a series of Dredd shorts. Suggesting that he could have been the Wagner elect he seems to have drifted from.

4. I can't believe 10 years ago I didn't mention the fun Burt and Ernie cameo in Leviathan - mind its sooo out of place!

5. The cover of Prog 1360, The Leviathan demonically looming over the read, is one of my all time favourite. So simple and so stark.

6. Past Imperfects really don't make good filler.

...but as I say I'm lazy and so since I can't be arsed to do any of that I imagine this will be a very short post...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 December, 2019, 09:23:47 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The No house style of Tharg - Prog 1365

Okay I'm going to struggle to express myself clearly here, but since this has never troubled me before why should it now, so here we go. Something that struck me about Prog 1365 was how stylised the art was and yet no singular style runs through which has always been one 2000ad's great strengths. Its lack of house style means you get a really glorious mix with the art. Not to say I like it all, it fact far from it, but it can never be said to be boring. I think in this issue its really stands out, though to be fair I reckon I could have picked any Prog from this end of 2003 run.

Anyway this Prog we get.

Siku's sharp, cutting art, all high contrast colours and dangerous angles on Dredd.

Next to that in 'Dead men walking' with have the popping colour of Boo Cook with smoother scruffy lines. Populating his world with cute yet ugly life forms.

In the middle with the wonderfully stark black and white stylings of Dom Reardon on 'Caballistic Inc' doing so much with so little.

There is a real contrast in the next thrill as Laurence Campbell and Lee Townsend provide muted colours almost clashing with their smooth and clean characters slickly filling dramatic hyper-realised action poses and spaces.

Finally we get the tight claustrophic art of Mark Harrison on 'Durham Red' all drama and bright light, explosions, ugly grimaces and mean snarls.

I'd give you a fiver bet you could put five Squaxx dek Thargo in a room and they'd each pick a favourite style from this Prog - but one thing that all of these talents have is style so much STYLE and purpose to the art they produce and that makes 2000ad such a visual thrill - even if sometimes the ride can leave you a little disorientated.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 December, 2019, 09:30:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

BITCH!

What else can be said about Dead Men Walking other than its Bitchin', its not totally bitchin' I mean 'shiv' it has some 'vuckin'' annoying future swearing. Our lead (and others) shout BITCH a lot. But you know what while I don't think this is a particularly well remember thrill its one I enjoyed when I first read it and have enjoyed again on re-read. Its curious blend of prison zombie horror and prison drama really works for me.

The led Jude represents a fine example of a common 2000ad mistake. The idea that by having a female led who simply acts like one of its more cliched male leads is made more interesting by the addition of female gentialur. Of course it doesn't, but I guess we should salute the introduction of more felmale leds in this run and expect therefore that some of them won't quite work. To be fair Jude just about survives the worst of the hard, bitter cliched protagonist... but not by much.

However in the context of this story, more about the mash-up and ideas than the strength of the characters, she workd fine. She serves the story if the story doesn't serve her. The same could be said for the villians, particularly the prison governor and most the supporting cast...

...okay I'm not selling this am I. BUT for all that it works and while I'm not Boo Cooks biggest fan here his art works just fine (also see Blunt). So yeah this story is far from totally bitchin', there its bitch of a problem working out why I enjoy it so much. I guess its just like a bad B Movie that just works for you.

Elsewhere the final line-up isn't without its problem either.

John Smith shows that however good he is his stylings don't always work on Dredd with 'Meat Monger' and throwing in a load of past Dredd Alien's isn't even cute.

Durham Red suffers from the same art issues as previous stories in this series. Maybe not as bad but the storytelling still gets masked.

Synnamon is a pretty dull standard, even though its trying so hard not to be. Its Sub-Smithian hyperbole just doesn't really work.

They and in this re-read I was pleasently surprised that Vector 13 didn't last as long as I remembered but Tales of Telguuth is STILL going. Really, its long past its sell by date.

So some wonderful Caballistics Inc shorts are a welcome repreieve in an end of year line-up that doesn't do the year it been part of justice... still more of that next time...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 December, 2019, 08:04:17 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The thrills of a settled life - 2003

By 2003 I'd taken stock of my life a bit. I was settling down. I was kinda learning who I was, for good and bad and not just that, but accepting who I was as well. Old friends were moving away, but new friends were coming in. Life didn't have quite, quite the cut and thrust of before. I was doing things that I wanted to do, not that tried to avoid who I was and my fears that that might be all there was.

Oh I still had my crazy moments, some I'd regret, some I wouldn't, but I was certainly becoming much more settled in myself.

So therefore I was also becoming quite 'dull'... and so we get to the year in Prog review. Lets be clear the Prog in 2003 was not dull, far, far from it. Talking about the Prog in 2003 however can be becoming a bit dull*. I'm beginning to suspect these years in review will become simply a list of what happened rather than a reflection of the changing state of the Prog. All the elements that will take the Prog to its current state are in play. Matt Smith is fairly embedded, Rebellion own the Prog. I think they are settled in the Oxford offices. The Prog feels likes its safe.... not in its content but in its future.

So with all that said lets reflect back on what I said this time last 'year'

QuoteAs for a look ahead. Well I'm expecting 2003 to be much of the same. The thrills of the future of late emphasis that. VCs (with Anthony Williams as expected in my mind!) alongside Callabistics Inc. We'll still have limited Dante (I think) but Sinister Dexter will do a stirling shift. There's a few multi-part one offs I think are coming, so I fully expect the same exciting energetic mix, peppered with missteps it will be easy to forgive.

Yep this gets it.

Dredd however does find itself in an interesting place. As Wagner starts to move away from his ever presence new writers of the strip are flexing their muscles. And of course flexing your muscles can look a little silly. Grennie however really starts to find his Dredd voice and enters the time when he became the front runner in folks mind (I think???) to replace John W. I'm excited to see how this develops in 2004.

Elsewhere as you settle in life you start to build new foundations. And 2004 does just that. Red Seas, Lobster Random and Caballistics Inc (which okay started at the end if last year) all debut or settle in and all are superb.

You also build the traditions of your past and Strontium Dog, Sinister Dexter what little Dante we get all have great years. You'll return to things you may have missed from your past with a fresh look and gain a new perspective and NuTrooper, NuVCs are both so much better than the strips that originated them.

Likewise some firm favourites of your youth will no longer work for you as well. Slaine and ABC Warriors represent here.

Of course you will also expose yourself to new experiences, some good some bad. The Good this time include Interceptor, Dead Men Walking, From Grace and the exceptional Leviathan. The bad I've mentioned already.

Overall though while you may not have quite the same rollercoaster ride as before things haven't really evened out. The good bits are still there but the lows, well generally they aren't quite so low and overall life is getting better.

And so we head to 2004 and what can I say I'm looking forward to pulling the Progs from my nerdcave and seeing what will be there I strongly suspect it will be much the same. The misfires will still be there, but slowly getting fewer as we continue to realise what works and are able to find that more often. The balance will slowly shift and only in good ways as we continue to settle and become comfortable with who we are and like it.

Onwards and upwards...

*[Normalsizedfont]And you can hush your mouth that it always has been since I've been doing it![Normalsizedfont]**

**Do I need to do that anymore?
Title: !
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2019, 08:01:36 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 October, 2019, 08:05:56 AM
Size matters

2003 has already disappointed. When digging them out the nerdcave I fully expected them to have swelled to full and proper size. Sure maybe a little shorter but it the width that makes them feel so much more substancial when in hand. Alas Tharg's Organ 2003 continues to be slighty disappointing in size. Still its want you do with it I guess.

Wayhey  - finally a nicely proportioned Prog. Feels so good in the hand.

Anyway one of my favourite moments in this 'prog slog' is the when I get the next years isssues out of the nerd cave and then 'reverse' the order - they are selved left to right in storage but reversed for reading order - if that makes sense. Anyway as I'm trying not to peak ahead this is my old insight into what's coming in the next year... well aside from my shoddy memory that is... which given I've read these issues at least twice in some form or other should provide more insight! Anyway all that preamble was meant to be a quick note to say 2004 is looking particularly fine.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2019, 09:10:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 2004

So if the 'flick' through the covers bode well for 2004 the launch Prog (all be it from end 2003 in reality) backs that up. Its a beaut and very much the first of these issues to truly be the launch of the first thrills of the year to come and hints of what's to follow that*.

Its a bloomin' lovely thing. Okay we have more Slaine and I think I've said quite enough about that AND the Sinister Dexter is a text story, all be it with lush Simon Davis illustrations.

Two other thrills Caballistics Inc and Nikolai Dante wonderfully set up what's to come in their future stories. Cabs does this particularly strongly with a flash bang whollop of an episode that's really absolutely thrilling in ever way.

We get some really fun one page Henry Flint masterpieces and a pretty fun if slight adultscent sequel to Reefer Madness with absolutely glorious art from Fraser Irving. The Dredd is also a mini masterpiece as John Wagner and Jim Murray bring a heart warming tale of Dredd meeting a reformed man in the Cursed Earth, a genuinely good man supporting those less fortunate than himself selflessly and thus being fogiven his past crimes... oh yeah hold on no this is a wonderfully typically brutal Dredd, its a delight.

Three other thrill charge forward with Slaine and Dredd into the the new year and all have fantastic openings. VC's is grim and hard as can be expected. Robo-Hunter as well as having possibly the worst logo ever in 2000ad history, one of those early computer graphic nightmares is a delightfully comedic romp as Samatha, who yes some of us like - is introduced to Hoagy, Stogie and us. Red Seas sits somewhere inbetween. Its a classic fun high seas hijinks with a sharp edge.

So yeah 2004 gets its size right and so much else besides.

*See comments on Prog 2003 where I mention that not all the new thrills for the first line-up actually launch from that Prog
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 23 December, 2019, 12:46:27 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2019, 09:10:55 PM
The Dredd is also a mini masterpiece as John Wagner and Jim Murray bring a heart warming tale of Dredd meeting a reformed man in the Cursed Earth, a genuinely good man supporting those less fortunate than himself selflessly and thus being fogiven his past crimes... oh yeah hold on no this is a wonderfully typically brutal Dredd, its a delight.

Love that one. 'Is this the end of Ratarse...?'
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 January, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Short, sure, but still at the head of its game

The best Sam Slade has always been short pithy Sam Slade. After the wonderful epic length Verdus the longer stories went from bad to worse in my eyes. The really classic Sam Slade is those first 4-6 six parters when Sam first went to Brit-Cit. Even with the addition of an 'antha' this still seems to remain true.

As I recall Samantha Slade wasn't too well received, but I enjoyed this story once again. Short, silly nonsense. With the perfect tone and cheek to be funny and a worthwhile return to the classic Robo-Hunter team.

That logo though - OUCH! (Sorry can't find an image online and too lazy to take a photo.)

On a side note I didn't remember the first Dredd of 2004 proper 'Cincinnati' by Wagner and the wonderfully energetic Carl Critchlow. The tale sees Dredd set the various lawless fractions of the eponymous location against ech other to reveal a Prep who has committed the sin of staining the City's leader. Its fun and while a little dispensible I can't think why its slipped my memory entirely.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2020, 07:10:35 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Well I did not realise that Arthur Wyatt came to the Prog this early with one of the few good Part Imperfects, a great tale of the impact of the Russia space race and its cosmonauts of all kinds. Superb one off with art by Laurence Campbell that seems to me to draw very heavily from Keith Giffen.

Elsewhere Slaine ends which is good, until I realise there is more than the three books to the 'Book of Invasion' I was expecting. The trouble is its replaced by Valkyries and its double length episodes as it started (I've read the first two parts) do nothing to help matters.There's so much that can be said about this series and quite what it was trying to do. Alas the most signficent thing is much like Slaine of late its just not very good. An over egged mash of shiny things.

Luckily the rest of the Prog is on sparkling form. I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed Alan Grant and John Burn's Crystal Skull story all be it pretty short lived and then to move into Brothers in Blood is sure sign that Dredd is in very good health at the moment.

All this is wrapped up with two absolute gems. Both at different ends of the spectrum the joyous high advernture of Red Seas as the Colassus of Rhodes fights a giant squid... just roll that phrase around your head and try not to be entoxicated. And VCs are hard bitten war epic. Both showing the craft and skill of the Prog at its best, but showing the wonderful diversity on Tharg's given thrill spectrum.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2020, 08:59:52 PM
Forgot to mention that Droid life starts at the beginning of 2004. Its a lot of fun in these old days.

Also what happened to John Lucas. While Valkyries doesn't offer much the art is pretty good and he could have developed into something quite good. Don't remember him turning up after this?

Oh and Prog 1380 Apellido pots up for the first time (I think).So we have Moses and Apellido in place by 2004 and these pieces will be moving things for some time.

Both Red Seas and VCs end very well, but I've stated by love of these strips clearly enough already so I've leave it there for now.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 03 January, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2020, 08:59:52 PM
Also what happened to John Lucas. While Valkyries doesn't offer much the art is pretty good and he could have developed into something quite good. Don't remember him turning up after this?

Seems to have kept busy... (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/john-lucas/4040-46571/issues-cover/)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2020, 09:46:21 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 January, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2020, 08:59:52 PM
Also what happened to John Lucas. While Valkyries doesn't offer much the art is pretty good and he could have developed into something quite good. Don't remember him turning up after this?

Seems to have kept busy... (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/john-lucas/4040-46571/issues-cover/)

Well yes I could have Googled him I suspose... whoops sorry Jim - just assumed he'd moved on since I didn't recognise the name at all. Lazy AND arrogant me!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 January, 2020, 09:23:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The more you change the more you thrill the same

So we reach the end of the first run of thrills - and some - before out first relaunch of 2004, almost into May as well.

Its been a bumpy ride getting here. There's been some top stuff and some duff stuff. All discussed below for those that fancy. As we head to relaunch there's a few things things worth noting.

Firstly we get that Shaun of the Dead prologue in Prog 1384. Nice art but I'm not quite sure what its trying to do. It cute nothing more.

Valkyries finishes and we get Bec and Kawl, different strips but I get as much from one as the other.

Slaine finished and we get Durham Red and both suffer from shiny, shiny art detracting from story.

But there are real positive. Grennie is at the height of his powers and as VCs  finishes we get Rogue Trooper - Real Politik which is just different level Rogue. I've whinned so much about oldRogue but NuRogue shows that there is potential in the character. Though it is the world and machinations around ol Blue that give the story any interest.

As Wagner leaves a hole in Dredd after some wonderful stuff. Grennie is bold enough to fill it with some wonderful stuff as Dredd shouts down Hershey and is left in the cold hunting down shadows of Mega City war prisoners.

So much change with little overall impact - for the good and the ill. But something don't need to change. I thought Sinister Dexter had lost Andy Clarke, but I'd forgotten how much of the Kal Cutter stuff he did and its bloody good stuff, S&D at its finest and the art is just sublime as our young gun shadows our Sharks, falls for a girl to only have to... well we'll see won't we... and then goes on his own hit as we get a cute tribute to the finest Sopranos episode of them all as well. Its just superb stuff. Nothing about this strip needs to change and we've got some good stuff coming to prove that as I recall.

No change in the debut of Al Ewing as of course he's been here before, though not for a while its been a good number of prog but he hits with another fine Terror Tale.

Also want to note how funny these early Droid Lifes are. Some absolute rip snorters.

So there we have and of course there's big change coming with a relaunch Prog  for the run into Prog 1400. And man looking at the advert its a line up change to be excited about... at least for 3 out of 5 thrills... oh hold on what change will that be?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 January, 2020, 09:49:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1387 - The tale Wagnering the Prog

I think I might have wasted that wonderfully terrible pun on this post but what they heck I'd have forgotten by the time it was used on a post that worked.

Anyway 'A tale of two Wagners' was even less worthwhile though as Prog 1387 was actually a bit of a surprise. I was expecting it to be a sure 3 for 5 with that rarest of things a Wagner tale at the rear. As it happens not so. A.H.A.B. by Nigel Kitching and the wonderful Richard Elson makes a pretty good, in fact very good start as the Moby Dick is laid on a little thick but its such a solid basis for a story it works.

Also Chopper -The Big Meg which I remember as an utter damp squib of a story is a pretty damned fine read so far. With Jugs passing and its impact on Marlon played well if low key way while the action is keep buzzing. Patrick Goddard and Dylan Teague do a great job on the art too. So this is far from a weak Wagner as I was expecting.

The three bankers all pay out. A fantastic Wagner Dredd giving the bird to my nonsense opinion to this other thrill in this Prog. Savage bringing Bill Savage back with a bang and Aimee Nixon wonderfully reminding us why Dirty Frank was only needed as a supporting character in the early Low Life stories.

So yeah this is a really, really solid relaunch all the more admirable by having 2 1/2 new thrills included in it. The next couple of issues do nothing to erode my positivity either.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 January, 2020, 09:36:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Well its not Shakespeare is it.

So there it was. There was that sinking feeling I was expecting with Chopper - The Big Meg. Its not that its a bad thrill. In fact its very well executed. Its a nice heist caper. With a very effective femme fatale and smooth clean art... its just... why? What does it add to Chopper. What purpose does it serve. I wonder who originated the creation of the tale?

I find it hard to imagine John Wagner woke up one morning an thought that having Chopper fall for a dame and jump on his surfer board to nick the coke formula was a story we needed? Its not as if he 'dialed it in' as the appalling cliche would have it. It feels like effort and love has gone into this new turn. Its just it feels so utterly superfluicous I'm not sure why its there. In my head Matt Smith saw heist movies were a thing - where they a thing in 2004? I think they were again, Ocean's Eleven remake wasn't too old by this point. So maybe he thought he'd ask Mr W for one of those. Maybe he asked for a new Chopper story and Mr W saw the heist boom and gave it a whirl... whatever its not a bad story... its just a story with no real reason to be.

One thing about the issue the story finishes in 1394 is the wonderful art. I mentioned in the regular Prog review how fantastic the diversity of art was in a recent issue. Its not far off here. Sure its different. It maybe lacks the completely off the lease work of McCarthy and Flint (on Vex) but get this:

Colin MacNeil with is solid earthy full colours on Dredd
Charlie Adlard's 'simple' stark monochrome on Savage. That madness in the eyes!
Richard Elson with that smooth line and soft edges capturing the scale of space opera quite wonderfully
Henry Flint in sharper more jagged and piercing mold on Low Life
and the afore mentioned clean easy chillout work of Patrick Goddard (and Dylan Teague) on Chopper.

Its really an artist masterclass with a real lack of house style, yet each style so very 2000ad!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 January, 2020, 09:44:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Low Life, Savage, Terror and its all good

Well never have so many negatives been the subject of such high times. Boy of boy as we enter mid 2004 we hit some real highs. The last run of the 1300s is some of the best times in thrill power I can remember. The low point is the very good, but sadly redundent Chopper story I mentioned last time. The rest is all wonderful stuff.

A.H.A.B. Could be victim of retreading Moby Dick but manages to launch from that tome to give us... ready for it... you can see it coming can't you... brace yourself... a WHALE of a time. ..ahem, sorry... It takes the central concept, toys with the themes but mainly gives us a fun, solid thrill pumped to the max.

Savage Is a smart, abusive reinvention of Invasion, yet manages to feel like a sequel at the same time. I do wonder sometimes at quite how ... unsubtle Bill is for a man who has gone to such lengths to hide his identity but damnit Savage and Invasion isn't about the subtle is it. Its simple stomping action and Patsical is at his best when he's writing folks who don't act as a mirror chamber to his world view and I love the way he plays Bill S. And and Charlie Adlard and those mad eyes, what a punching thrill.

When these thrill start to tale off (pun fully intended) they get replaced with some super filler. A great Sinister Dexter about ghosts Mov'er'ing in next door. We get some great Future Shock, one in particular by Andy Diggle and Kev Walker about the extreme things one marooned space pilot does to cope is just fantastic. Even the Tyranny Rex 'Redux' I've always felt was a little unnecessary and a little weight is actually really good and I now think its a real shame we never got to the warzone in Lokkkh/Ikoshki space so John\Smith!

I wish I could say that Low Life was the best thing in this spell, cos its really, really good. The brutal, hard introduction of Aimee Nixon is the very definition of hard-boiled street level drama. Its so grim and gritty it hurts... but man it hurts so good. What's so great looking back from this perspective to see everything that we see happen to Aimee Nixon laid out for us here. Everything is here, all we'll see unfold so perfectedly set up in the opening story 'Paranoia'. I don't know and doubt that Rob Williams had a plan to start with but the foundations he lays for Nixon are so strong that it feels like he did.

Tell you what you know how great Low Life is at the start that you barely notice bog ol' Dirty Frank. He's just a glorious bit of background and you don't miss him, even knowing what he's about to become. No this story is Aimee's and I'm very glad it is... well Aimee's and Henry Flint's but ya know.

I'd actually forgotten we got a second short story after Paranoia. Its a full fat fun short demonstrating how flexible and rich a world Rob Williams has penned for Flint to realise.

Yeah so I do wish I could say this was the best thing here, but I can't.

Cos there's a reason Judge Dredd - Terror is leading off the soon to be launched 'Best of 2000ad' cos it very nearly is. I know I overlook this story somewhat. I also don't hear it reference anywhere near as much as America, Mandroid, Total War etc etc but you know what its should be its really that good and having just re-read it I'm so pleased its getting it just deserts headlining the new series.

John Wagner and Colin MacNeil craft a tight, tense thrill. Full of blood, action and foolish romance. Its precedural, love story, prime commentry and action piece in just 48 pages. Wow how do they do it. Why by being the very Best of 2000ad in this best of 2000ad times.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 17 January, 2020, 10:42:07 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 January, 2020, 09:44:04 PM
Cos there's a reason Judge Dredd - Terror is leading off the soon to be launched 'Best of 2000ad' cos it very nearly is. I know I overlook this story somewhat. I also don't hear it reference anywhere near as much as America, Mandroid, Total War etc etc but you know what its should be its really that good and having just re-read it I'm so pleased its getting it just deserts headlining the new series.

Weirdly, I have literally no recollection of this story. I'm going to have to pick up a copy of the new 'Best of' simply because I'm so lazy that I can't be arsed rummaging through the back issue boxes in the garage to find the progs, but I'm keen to read a Wagner/MacNeil Dredd that's (apparently!) new to me...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 January, 2020, 09:26:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The ABCs of teaching and old Dog new tricks

So Prog 1403 sees the end of Strontium Dog 'The Heady Foot Job', ABC Warriors -Shadow Warriors Book 2 ends two Progs later. Something struck me about this two old favourites, certainly at this point.

Both series started at about the same time, certainly in relation to the age of the Prog and while they followed different trajectories they have both dropped in and out from time to time. By the time Prog 1400 rolls around however they have both become semi regulars again and both are respected pillars of the Prog. Thing is they have both aged very differently.

ABC Warriors feels a bit tied by this point. The art by Flint is incredible but Pat Mills is firing out tried and tested ideas and themes that have worn threadbare with over use. He's almost metronomic in the way he rolls out an idea, rolls out a bit of clever word play, rolls out a bit of action,  rolls out a bit of characterisation - over-burdened by trying to make things seem cool and edgy. It doesn't feel natural it feels cold, calculated and stilted because of it. It feels like its trying to act its age, to be all grown up and meaningful. but by doing so has wiped out its original charm and become forced.*

Wagner and Ezquerra do none of this. There is much more confidence in a deceptively simple 4 part Strontium Dog story. An amusing (very amusing that is no slight) tale of Johnny and Wulf seeming to rescue a hard bitten ex-Dog sentenced to death. The story seems slight and relaxed. Its doesn't appear to be trying to do anything too much, its not pumping themes and ideas at any great pace. Its not changed to accommadate its changed audience.

No rather Wagner and Ezquerra are supremely confident that craft is timeless, a good yarn told well is a good yarn told well and if they are having fun doing it, we'll have fun reading it. And I did. It was simple riot of fun, idea, banter and bashing. It was good comics, good storytelling. Unlike Pat Mills it doesn't feel like they are churning it out to keep it going** it feels like they have just thought, when they are good and ready, oh this will be a fun thing to do and they do it.

No Wagner and Ezquerra realise you don't need to teach an old Dog new tricks.

*I will say I'm expecting an uptick in ABC Warriors when Clint Langley comes along, we'll see what happens

** I'm not suggesting that Mills is just churning it out, just that's how it feels to me when I read it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 January, 2020, 10:30:23 PM
I don't disagree with any of your points, but I found The Headly Foot Job to be staid. Mind you, I'm a Marmite Strontium Dog fan: some I love (The Killing), some I loathe (or rather, feel that they don't say anything new).

Like you, I loved the art in The Shadow Warriors, but the warriors have been repetitive and sub-standard (story-wise) since Hellbringer (with Khronicles of Khaos being the last time they were really on top form).

(I say this having just been enjoyably surprised by episode #1 of Return to Ro-Busters in prog 1961.)

Bec & Kawl were cute but a bit one-note. I have no recollection of Dredd's Big Deal at Drekk City.

So, leading the pack at the time was Cabs with Creepshow.





Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 January, 2020, 09:49:18 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 January, 2020, 10:30:23 PM
Bec & Kawl were cute but a bit one-note.

I've avoided saying too much about Bec and Kawl as it just does nothing for me. Its not even bad in an interesting way like some  of Millicons stuff.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 January, 2020, 10:30:23 PM
I have no recollection of Dredd's Big Deal at Drekk City.

Its a bit of a weird one. I really like it and enjoy the way Dredd stalled the perps by giving a Justice related meaning to each of the playing cards... it just read a bit weird and forced. Still for some strange reason really worked for me?!? Oh and glorious Cam Kennedy art.

Anyway since I cluttered your thread with my logo I feel its only fair to do this

(https://i.imgur.com/cUg4r1y.png)

this time... Sorry about that Funt Solo.

Anyway to matters self-absorbed

Prog 1406 - Reflections on a different YNWA

I was given a copy of Prog 1406 by a friend back in the day. Purely on the basis that it had the scouse zombie story, they knew I loved 2000ad back in the day's back in the day and thought that might amuse me. Very kind gesture. Alas misfired and I looked at this Prog with a sense of ... almost pity... the comic wasn't what I remembered, what I wanted the Prog to be...

...I shudder at the thought of 2004 Colin, he was a silly old guff 'ead. He was getting back, slowly into American comics off the back of selling the bulk of his old collection. He was buying Avengers comics regularly and a few, select other American comics and starting to lap up back issues at an bit of a rate. He'd picked up most of the first 500 issues of the Prog that he didn't already own. But that was a nostaglia trip. He had no interest in the modern Prog that was rubbish...

...christ I was like one of those goons on Facebook who doesn't rate the Prog at all anymore having not read it for over 30 years!

I was wrong. This is a decent Prog. Okay the art on scouse zombie Dredd is a bit glowly, the stories just servicable, which is a shame from Alan Grant. Caballistics Inc is superb as 'Creepshow' nears its conclusion (more next time), Robo-hunter continues Samantha's fun introduction, Asylum 2 has a good opening episode, as does Strontium Dog in 'Traitor to his kind'. Christ by chance I had three first parts, a one of Dredd and the only ongoing story was a bit of a classic...

...yet I looked at this and shrugged. I felt a quiet happiness that the Prog was still there, but at the same time almost recented that being so. AS. ITS. NOT. MY. PROG. Not what I remembered and at that time, so turned by my return to simple four colour superheroics just of no interest to me.

This my friends and loyal readers (well you must be loyal if you continue to read my guff!) is a warning to us all. See I think this is very possibly what those very gumbars I mention above think? So set on the fact that the Progs not for them anymore that it doesn't matter how good the content is. They have shut the doors to the possibility and blinkered themselves to the fact it could be good.

I know I had... bloody fool that I was.

Luckly for use all my story has a happy ending as a little over 2 years and 100 Prog after this, so immersed in comics and driven by 30th birthday publicity and a strange sense of loyality, I decide to give the Prog another go. and 13 years and over 14,000 posts (bloody hell I need to stop this don't I!) later here we all are. My love for 2000ad burns as bright, if not brighter than ever.

The lesson... oh who gives a toss I'm off to read more Progs from all ages... with an open mind...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Bolt-01 on 23 January, 2020, 08:12:44 AM
Like.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 January, 2020, 09:21:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Caballistics Inc - Creepshow

I've not got much to say about this one... so why the thread. Well last time I exposed the stupidity of 2004 Colin as he rejected the Prog out of hand. I didn't want to leave you thinking it was only 2004 Colin who was stupid... mind those reading this know that already I guess... no 2010 Colin was ... well if not stupid a bit gullible and daft. See when I first read this story I was so immersed by the story of Ludgate Pictures, even though I knew it was real... even though I knew it was daft... I did a quick Google search to make sure it wasn't a real thing I'd somehow missed and Grennie had weaved a tale around urban myth about them. I knew it couldn't be the case, but I just had to... kinda... check.

There I've confessed, I've got it off my chest. Now you can read the rest of stupid 2010 Colin's thoughts on this story as 2020 Colin doesn't think everything he said was stupid (2004 Colin was just completely dumb though)

QuoteI know that Caballistics Inc is an incredibly popular strip and while I've always enjoyed it its always frustrated me. While all the stories have been entertaining enough on their own their place within the grand story has been dominated to the point of smothering the individual tales. The stories to date have felt like distractions on the way to understanding the bigger picture. Mere vehicles to slowly reveal the secrets behind the characters, ways to fit the Caballistics Inc world into prog sized chunks.

I felt all that until 'Creepshow' when the balanced clicked. This felt like a story that added to the overall picture rather than one fitted ackwardly around the bigger scene. 'Creepshow' certainly moved the larger picture forward but it was a cracking yarn in itself and that's what counts in 2000ad. Gordon Rennie created a wonderfully realised fantasy and the creation of Ludgate Films was utterly convincing. I was truely engaged with the whole story and thus cared more for the details being added to the 'meta story' to use modern parlance.

Caballistics has looked fantastic through out and its no different here, just for me this was the first story to completely match this.

Complete.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 January, 2020, 08:01:05 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The more things change the more they stay the same

The self-absorbed self quote, my thoughts on Asylum 2 from 2010 when I first read it:

QuoteWell just finished Asylum 2 and it was better. It felt like it had more focus but I still didn't enjoy it massively. You see, and I know I should whisper this, I'm not a big fan of Boo Cook's art. Don't get me wrong its good art and I know I'm completely in the minority (possibly of one?) but it doesn't work for me. Its a taste thing and I have a horrible feeling this may have distracted me too much in this case...or did it?

Now interestingly I really enjoyed 'Dead Man Walking' and the art didn't detract from that at all so maybe its the atmosphere that was trying to be portrayed didn't sit well with Boo's style?

I don't know when I finished the story I tried to work out why I hadn't enjoyed it too much as it certainly worked as a story, the characters by and large worked better than in the first story. It felt as if it had more direction and a clarity of vision I found lacking in the first one. Just couldn't work it out. Then it occured to me.

I'm not a big fan of Boo Cook's art, there's nothing wrong with Boo Cook's art he's clearly a very talented fella and sometimes I look at it and wonder why on Earth I don't go mad for it, but I don't. So I guess that's it sometimes stuff just don't work for you as an individual, nowt wrong with it, nowt to be analysised, nowted to pick apart. Some time you have to just shrug and say well done fella's just not for me.

So first thing to acknowledge if we're going to talk about change and...err... not change is that one consistent in our lives is my inability to write with any clarity or miss out words, letters etc that make my missives not only insights into my muddled leaky mind, but also nice challenging word puzzles for you to enjoy. I work on so many level I does.

Anyway normally when I self quote I do so as I'm a lazy ol' buzzard and can't be bothered to repeat what I've said before. Here I do it for the opposite reason, cos 2020 Colin doesn't agree with 2010 Colin. I really enjoyed Asylum 2. It took the slightly cliched (for 2000ad and sci-fi in general) themes of the first story and soften the edges, exposing a little more complexity.

Here Rob Williams and Boo Cook explore a sense of belonging, what it is to fight for what you believe in and where you belong and the extremes we reach when we do so... or summit I ain't no English Literature graduate....

...anyway I enjoyed it. Well fleshed out characters in tense thrilling circumstances. Heartstrings well and truly pulled on and a few chunky messages to chew on. So where it didn't gell for 2010 Colin, for whatever reason and changes in 2020 Colin it really did. I really liked it and have enjoyed Asylum across the piece all the more on this re-read. One factor is almost certainly that I've warmed (if only a little) to Boo Cook's art over the years and enjoy it here.

So a couple of posts ago I mentioned how having steadfast views on whether something will or won't be good before engaging with it isn't a healthly thing. Here I also suggest that we (I) take a similar approach to the possiblity of change. That my changing world view, age, experience, or even just taste will change how I reflect on a story and just cos I held a view on one thing at one point doesn't mean I need to hold that view at another point.What lovely fluid things we are, we grow and we change ... and that can be for the good... hopefully...

Mind looking at the rest of the Prog at this time there are certainly things I don't see myself ever changing my view on. Like Brexit there are certain things that are just so wrong, or so right, that there's no need to shift, regardless of how I have developed. In thrill terms the absolute chilling delight that is Total War book ending the Prog with Strontium Dog 'Traitor to his kind' makes this a bloody superb period and that is a closed book.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 January, 2020, 08:37:26 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The frantic choas of the end of the year

There's always so much to do at the end of the year, so many things to fit in and so it is for the Prog in 2004. There seems to be about 4 too many Progs to fill and Tharg has to throw all sorts in to try to fit them all in - some works, some doesn't, but of course the has some of his centre pieces well and truly in place. And so to try to cramp all this in I've a few quick thoughts on the end of 2004.

1. I don't own the Placebo Poster Prog as it didn't come with Prog 1405 when I picked up these issues... I've not urge to track it down either, so much for my open mind!

2. Strontium Dog 'Traitor to his kind' which starts in Prog 1406 is just fantastic. Classic scenario to pull into focus Johnny at his   brooding self sacrificing best as human and mutants clash again and Johnny's family once again shows it really should have gone to some sort of thearpy sessions together.

3. This earlier less 'Rage' Johnny even scarifices his revenge as a source of solice. Does any one do brooding self-saacrifice like Johnny...

4. I have no idea what the scheduling juggernaut force Tharg to do but I do wonder why 'Traitor to this Kind wasn't programmed to run to the end of the year and some of the filler fired into these earlier Prog having both this and 'Total War' to see the year out would have been incredibe.

5. Robo-hunter - Furzt Case is on this reading going to be the weakest of the Samantha stories, either that or my love of this series will not survive this read. Still its an okaaayyyy fun action romp.

6. Tharg does throw some filler thrills in here with some barely adequate Future Imperfects and Past Shocks, which indicate quite the juggling act Tharg has on his hands this time of year.

7. But even when he's juggling Tharg has some delights for us as Lobster Random returns in 'Tooth and Claw' in Prog 1411. We'll face up to that one in a bit.

8. Prog 1412 brings is Freaks - Faces as well, and we'll face up to that one later as well.

9. A cute Sinister Dexter is thrown in to add to the filler in Prog 1415 and given the quality of this thrill of late this story can' be seen as anything more.

10. As Asylum 2 cycles out and has been discussed below, two more thrills pad out the end of year with Synnamon and Red Sea drop in.

11. I forget how often Synnamon pops up and the fact that I forget says it all.

12.Where as I remember clearly this Red Seas short as Erebus really find his feet in the series. Just great fun stuff in the classic high spirited, simple high seas adventures of this series.

13. By the end of 1419 and the conclusion of Faces I'm a little at a lose of what that was all about. It has so much going on, alien romance, government cloning, alien invasions that its 8 episodes are left dizzy and confusing. Nothing breathes and it reads like a confusing series of ill connected events.

14. By the end of 1419 and the conclusion of Tooth and Claw I'm a little at a lose at how that managed that. It has so much going on, robotic romance, rock stars moaning, crustean demi God interventions and a lot more. But with its 9 episodes we are left dizzy and delighted. Everything is given full life and somehow the confusing series of events is connected into a chaotic, original cavalcade.

15. Sometime the talent and craft works, John Higgins and Mindy Newell who bring us Faces have that in spades its just that here it doesn't work as the craft and talent displayed by Spurrioso and Critchlow on Tooth and Claw.

16. And talent and craft bring us back to the true star of the end of the year 'Total War', one of my all time favourite Dredds.

17. It too have sooo much going on but all wonderfully paced and position to create a truly mesmerizing whole. The gripping tense procedural of the first half, completely compelling and engrossing and genuinely edge of the seat stuff.

18. The stakes are so high and you utterly buy into it as the procedural starts to fall away and with glorious awareness of its pacing Dredd tells Roffman to get on and get to just the important details and so Wagner does and the stort accelerates into action thriller.

19. By the end its a family meladrama with quite the most astonishing meladramatic back drops as a man, having lost an arm to a final nuker blast threatens Vienna only for her to be rescued by her super-powered, deformed and brutal clone relative Wagner shows that he like no one else understands the balance between the sublime and the ridiculous.

20. Though ultimately for all that, all the terror, all the explosions, and the meladrama in Wagner masterful hands comes down to Dredd once again showing anything Johnny can do he can do to. If its brooding (or repressed) self-scarifice look no further than Dredd as well as Johnny.

21. Its these counter points that wish for whatever scheduling nightmares Tharg and Matt Smith was coping with he's somehow managed to put the end with Traitor to his kind alongside the end of Total War. I'm not sure we would have survivied the thrill-power overload but we'd of had in a single place all the evidence we needed that John Wagner is truly the greatest comics writer.

And so there we have it 2004 comes to an end and that can mean only one thing... and I don't do the spinnys - see you next time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 January, 2020, 08:54:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2004

So I'm settling further down, still going to Glastonbury, finding my all time favourite festival in ATP and through that one of my all time favourite bands Deerhoof... oh and I meet my wife, though I don't know that yet.

So yeah 2004 Colin is in a much better place* and far more...

...hold on didn't I say this last time...

...yep...

...okay I said this would get dull. The trouble is being settled, even if its in a much more positive place can be pretty dull to discuss.

So yeah like the Prog I'm kinda there. Oh its not perfect, and stuff can still be rubbish on occasion but I'm so much more settled that I can roll with the bad and the hedantistic highs are motivated by positives, not simply covering up the negatives. The Prog is the same. The lows - well almost all of them there's some exceptions I've mentioned down thread... are by and large not that low and by contrast the highs are all the more magnificent and in Prog terms we get so many of those.

Sorry I'm getting ahead of myself. What did I predict last year?

QuoteAnd so we head to 2004 and what can I say I'm looking forward to pulling the Progs from my nerdcave and seeing what will be there I strongly suspect it will be much the same. The misfires will still be there, but slowly getting fewer as we continue to realise what works and are able to find that more often. The balance will slowly shift and only in good ways as we continue to settle and become comfortable with who we are and like it.

Onwards and upwards...

Yep nailed it and frankly there's not too much more to say other than that which I've said throughout this thread. I could list what was good and what wasn't but what's the point. We'll not learn anything from it. The Prog is in a very good place. Its not quite 1999 good yet, that's still my favourite year, but its not far off and some of the highs really are as good as the Prog has ever been.

So all that's left is predictions for 2005 and frankly things will slowly and steady get better as will life. We'll have some of the best Sinister Dexter and Sweden, we have our last Glastonbury and Caballistics Inc (I think), we'll be in full ATP swing and we'll have Red Seas and Leatherjacks. It will be a good year and I'm looking forward to reliving it.

*Don't worry before you think this will turn into a smug self satisfied (as well as self absorbed) fest please  don't forget 2004 Colin might have been settled, but he was also a dunderhead nonscrot and we need to wait almost a couple of years before I'm repreived!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 February, 2020, 09:53:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Some quick thoughts on early 2005

1. Prog 2005  introduces the as yet unnamed Damage Report. The Prog as we know it is complete

2. It also continues the trend that the bumper end of year Prog is really just a launch Prog... which is not to say its not great as it pretty much is as a bumper prog during this time is indeed a bumper treat.

3. In a minor classic Dredd finally catches up with Oola. Caballistics Inc sets up its own ending. Sinister Dexter foreshadows a turn of events. Leviathan horribly fullfils the role of filler with a grusome glory all of its own. Nikolai Dante swings back into high seas action and there's more besides. Its a fantastic issue.

4. LIke all good launch Progs it also has a great new story as Second City Blues balls its way into the Prog by Kek-W and the oft under-rated Warren Pleece.

5. And so the first line-up of 2005 is pretty strong. Dredd is backed up by that new thrill, Caballistics and Caballistics Inc. Slaine finishes up the line-up

6. Prog 1420 gives Damage Report its name. I'm not sure if that's based its original remit of listing the damage Droids have been inflicited or the damage it does to your eyes as you try to read that tiny grey text on a black background. Oh the strain.

7. Dredd leds the line with a series of post 'Total Wars' stories that have earned great praise for carrying on the impact of that epic. The first of them is superb, all be it with a weird art choice. 'After the bombs' a story of an injuried woman a lump of shrapnel in her skull releasing strange pre-cog powers to back up surprising gun skills and dark secrets. Its a grim masterpiece by John Wagner joined by odd choice of bubbly art by Jason Brashill not carrying the tone regardless of his technical skill.

8. But its not just Wagner, Grennie, ably supported by Anthony Williams provides a great story in Prog 1423 as we see the impacts on Vienna and again set up for more to come.

9. Caballistics Inc is the first of the line-up to finish after a tense terse tale of angels and stone golems. Its replaced by a story on the other extreme of the 2000ad spectrum as Dirty Frank finally steps into the spotlight and literally takes centre stage in a rocking and genuinely funny Low Life story 'Rock and a hard place.' Its quite superb and perfectly showcases why Frank has become one of Tharg's true superstars.

10. Something that makes my eyes sore gives way to a sight for sore eyes as Slaine goes next and in Prog 1426 Steve Parkhouse writes and draws Tiger Sun. I'm not sure why this is shoehorned into a Dredd world story and I'm not too far into it at the time of typing. What I can say unequivocally is that Parkhouse's art is stunning and like Warren Pleece he's a under-rated slice of brilliance.

11. So as Prog 1427 brings a real turn in events in the always entertaining Second City Blue, which I think I'll talk about more next time Nikolai Dante ends one of his superb stories. In Agent of Destruction we get an example of what this series at its best does so well. It balances high seas hi-jinx and thrilling action with a dark emotional under-current of tension and power. The larger story arc playing here adds perfecting to the sci-fi action. The easy cheap charm of Dante adds perfectly to deep tones and meladrama of those that surround him and the events that consume him. The pirate days of Dante come in for a hard time and I can never understand why. It gets its balance perfectly and I can only assume its irregular scheduling is what affected it most not its quality.

So 2005 gets off to a strong start with a headly mix of old and new showing Tharg's organ at its very best.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 February, 2020, 09:18:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Second City Blues

Now this is interesting. Ten, count um, Ten Years ago I said this about this sporting Alien invasion thrill

QuoteI'm not saying anything new I don't think when I comment on the fact that this thrill summarises whats so very hard about getting future sports strips right. Namely getting the sport right. Its so hard to create a convincing, viseral future sport that can be shown and understood in short compacted episodes yet still come across as convincing. At one point its said the sport in this story is the most dangerous and violent sport out there... really didn't come across as such.

Which is a real shame as the story running behind it was really good fun. I loved some of the characters, even if they were a bit cliched, I'm looking at you coach. The aliens sealing themselves off from their senses just plain brillant. At times it read like an 80s kids tv show a little like 'Press Gang' or the like and I mean that in a good way. Right down to the last panel gag 'to camera'. I was a fun strip right from the old school... just didn't need the the surf boards and goal hoops.

Warren Pleece's art is always worth a mention... so I will its great.

Just offside

Now I stand by my comment that the sport is an issue here. While the sport need not be central to the plot its does provide the back drop to the story, the environment in which the tale is told. Its the Mega City to Dredd, the Downlobe to Sinister Dexter and if you don't buy into it as plausible it takes something away from the tale.

What this story ably demostrates on re-read is how much this is the case. The once Professor Byah said it wasn't a big deal and its just background and lets face it Rok of the Reds sure shows evidence of that, enjoyed by fans and haters of footie alike. I do however think that background is not to be dismissed BUT its impact was far from significent this time. Despite the issues with making the sport feel real and visceral the story is blinding, the characters engaging and the twists, turns and quirks this very Kek-W of sports stories takes really make this a fantastic read.

There may well have been a wink to camera to mark the end of this story, but by George I think its one that could safely come back with the team heading of to the interplanetary competition with the gangster Dad as owner I think there was rich ground to be played in. So come on Kek-W get the wonderful Warren Pleece back on the board and lets do this again. Its grand.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 February, 2020, 09:50:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Long tails, sagging middles and nice shorts - Spring 2005

Arh a nice long travel journey and not caring for a couple of stories mean that I've breezed through spring and of course have a few things to say.

1. Its been said before and I suspect in 10 years when I do my next re-read (don't hold me to that) the fall out from 'Total War' just works. Its feels appropriate and fitting for such a great story. Its long and really pulls out the key elements that needed or justified further exploration.

2. Its been said before that other 'Mega-Epics' would deserve such treatment.

3. Its been said before and no doubt I'll say it again 'Life's a Beach' is one of my favourite short form Sinister Dexter stories. Don't know why, its not especially smart, or brilliant - as they often can be, it just resonates with me. Sometimes its okay to just love something cos you do without having to over analyse.

4. Also see Nikolai Dante - Primal Screams.

5. I can barely bring myself to read Slaine anymore. I'm just no enjoying it on any level. I know this is seen as a return to form, but sometimes just as you can like something you can not get on with it as well.

6. Also see Bec and Kawl

7. In Prog 1437 Keith Richardson joins team.

8. Grennie is really building a strong storyline with Kazan clone and trying to undermine Dredd, but he's in danger of dragging things out too long and to far... and as I recall the story won't pay off, which will be a real shame if my addled memory isn't letting me down.

9. I really like American Gothic, its sharp fun and done. Its the third such self contained tale already so far this year - though I suspect Tiger Sun, Dragon Moon had planned to come back for me and I really think such stories work in the Prog and we don't get too often anymore. I don't think it'll be the last either.

10. In the specific American Gothic is just that. Its takes the greatest America trope the western, adds another american trope the pilgramage across the country and adds another American trope of the immigrants tale and adds some good old European folk monsters into that. Its really blends the elements well, doesn't over stay its welcome (in fact I'd have like it to of had a little longer to explore things) and has suitable baddies and daring do damned goodies. Its just brisk fun.

11. Mike Collins art work on the series fascinates me too. At times its just dark brooding and delightful. At times its slightly awkward and unclear with the blacks being jagged strangely not making things solid. When its great it reminds me of Klaus Janson (which I've said before I believe) but it can do that one panel but on the next it just does work for me. Looking at it I wonder if its been computer drawn and Mike Collins is experimenting with a new toy and that exploration lands on the page with both its sucesses and failures. I have no ideas at all if this is the case just a hunch.

12. I love NuVCs but do think Book 4 'Fight or Flight' is the weakest of the stories. Its good (so my saggy middle in the title is unfair... unless it was self referential as my middle is pretty saggy these days) it just lacks the grit and tone of the others. Still Anthony Williams on art is great and I think it more than recovers next time (again rubbish memory to be tested)

13. SHAKARA

14. SHAKARA

15. We get double Shakara TWICE (at least not read 1443 yet) and that's a joy on the eye and a thrill for the soul.

16. Prog 1443 is a sort of mini relaunch Prog pre 1450 (which I assume will be an actual relaunch Prog) which is annoying* as I don't know whether to go to a mini break now or wait...

*Well if that's what annoys me I've not many problems in my life have I!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 March, 2020, 09:12:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2005 is going party like its 2020

Well that title doesn't work does it! Anyway...

... The run up to 1450 has a line-up that for reasons I can't quite place really reminds me of this current, magnificent run on the Prog. I means its not that good, its bloody good, but not that good. It might be as simple as there's some common artists. It might be as simple as the fact that the tone is just a perfect mix. It might even be as basic as I fact I think its fookin' fantastic, but something about this line-up feels like modern 2000ad at its best.

The line-up then might help facts understand what leads me here.

Dredd by Grennie and Currie - a fantastic conclusion, I assume I'm up to 2047 to the Russian Cloney courting then kidnapping Vienna. Its Grennie doing his best impression of Wagner doing one of his best procedurals and one of the stories that in my mind at least, set Grennie as an early contender for the who can replace Wagner debate. Its gripping stuff, culminating in an packed crescendo.

Sinister Dexter - 'Slow train to Kal Cutter' a wonderful tale that really starts to firm up Apellido's role in affairs and has a stupidly brilliant Poirot spoof.

Shakara just being SHAKARA

Atavar III in such high end Sci-fi it feels surreal but its just glorious techno-babble.

Caballistics Inc in the wonderfully brutal Northern Dark even more noteworthy for containing the first appearance of Absalom too in Prog 1446.

Its all just wonderful stuff.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 March, 2020, 09:11:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Its the end of the thrills as we know them and Tharg does fine.

Landing endings five for five is pretty damned impressive. Endings as we know can always be the hardest part. But in the summer of 2005 Tharg managers it. Though he pulls a pretty neat trick of making of having a good formula.

Dredd - 'Blood Trails' - Its a violent brutal ending with a strong emotional under current, even from Joe himself. It does however promise more to come.

Caballistics Inc - 'Northern Dark' Its a violent brutal ending with a dark under current. It does however promise more to come.

Sinister Dexter - 'Slow train to Kal Cutter' - Its a violent and brutal ending with a fun under current. Its does however darkly promise more to come.

Shakara - 'The Assasin' - Its a violent and brutal ending with a SHAKARA under current. Its does however promise more to come.

Atavar III - Its a violent and brutal ending with a high concept under current ... well the high concept runs loud and proud here doesn't it. Its does however promise more to come, though well actually rather neatly leaving it clear its the ending we need to the story as we see it.

So yeah this has been such a satisfying run. An utterly exemplory one and Prog 1450 has a lot to live up to. But in the endings we are so blessed with what Tharg serves us it can be hard to allow ourselves to celebrate these highs as he's forced to drive the story machine forward and start afresh next week, and next week and next week...

So I'll allow these to briefly dewell as I side step to other things, briefly, only briefly as of course these endings all do the one thing that great story always should and leave us wanting to know what comes next.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 March, 2020, 03:00:33 PM
Prog 1452 and Great Grennie

We move from a fantastic line-up leading up to Prog 1450 to a fantastic line-up coming out of 1450. The second half of 2005 is turning into a bit of a doozy and with 10 good to great thrills in the mix it feels a little unfair to pick out one creator and especially one episode by one creator, but the other tales will get their day and I'll talk about Leatherjack, Savage Book 2, Sam(antha) Slade at her peak and even Breathing Space at a later date I'm sure. For now lets celebrate Grennie at his peak before he leave us for a while.

The Dredd story 'Matters of Life and Death' is quite superb and just goes to show how during this early 2000s run on Dredd he really had mastered writing Ol' Joe. Coming off the back of long form, high consequence Dredd 'Blood Trials' he manages that trick that Wagner is so good at, that being switching tack. In 'Matters' as my lazy fingers will abbreviate this tale to, Giant needs a re-evaluation after the injuries he recieved in the previous tale and of course we all know whose doing that evaluation. In just 6 short pages Grennie does some really good evaluation himself mind. And so much more. He gives a really neat recap of where each of the strips main cast, including Vienna are at. You get some glorious character moments between both Giant and Dredd and with Vienna. You somehow also get a healthy dose of action and Vienna's tale carries some emotional punch too.

Man all this in just 6 pages - Wagneresque economy there - after a very different but equally effective 10 parter. That's impressive. But there's more. Now I have no idea if this was ever intended, but reading this I do wonder if Grennie was setting up a very long term story opportunity here.

[Utterlysillyspoilerbasespeculation] Vienna gives up the child she is carrying, to come to term by a surrogate and be given for adoption. So that means somewhere there's a 14 year old(ish) child with the genetic mix of Dredd's line and Sov Cities finest spy. Now that's rich picking if someone ever picked it up. Some might suggest its something Kenneth Neimand might be working towards - but that's silly speculation on top of already silly speculation and so...[\\Utterlysillyspoilerbasespeculation]

What is definate is that Grennie is doing some magnificent work on Dredd. Really good. One thing I don't think he's quite mastered (though please dear reader correct me if I'm wrong) is the truly effective humour done in one. He's done some pretty good ones, but I don't think he's quite mastered those the way Wagner has, I'll be looking more intently at this from now on, though I'm not sure how much more Grennie Dredd we have to go?

Mind having just said all that next issue John Wagner clearly feels* he has the need to remind us that good as Grennie is he is still the master and the small story called Mandroid kicks off. These are truly blessed times!

*Well of course John Wagner almost certainly didn't feel that he was just doing what he does best!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Andy B on 14 March, 2020, 11:03:56 PM
Strong agree about Gordon Rennie: he just gets Dredd perfectly. It's a crime that (other than in the Case Files) the collections have skipped his stuff, 'Blood Trails' in particular - I seem to remember reading somewhere that that might have contributed to him quitting Dredd?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 March, 2020, 08:25:09 AM
Quote from: Andy B on 14 March, 2020, 11:03:56 PM
I seem to remember reading somewhere that that might have contributed to him quitting Dredd?

Oh that would make sense and be a bit annoying. I seem to remember he went to video games for a period, as many did. Its a shame as he's definately amongst the best none Wagners.

Anyway just a quickly this morning me dear to start the endings. As Samantha Slade - Stim is the first of the post 1450 stories to wrap in Prog 1456 and its been a delight. Fast, funny and in so many ways the true continuation of the old series. All helped by the fact that Ian Gibson seem to up his game and produce his best work on the series since its return. Maybe the story is elevated by his exceptional art, maybe he elevated this art for the exceptional story. Who aside from Ian Gibson knows? But then who cares if it makes for great thrills.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 15 March, 2020, 08:35:46 AM
I have a lot of time for Rennie's Dredd, my only objection being that he stopped when his long-running threads were getting good. Even back then he was a craftsman of structure, pacing and dislogue. But even I thought Blood Trails was pretty poor fare.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 March, 2020, 09:01:12 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 March, 2020, 08:35:46 AM
But even I thought Blood Trails was pretty poor fare.

Oh what so is 'Blood Trails' poorly regarded? I thought it was pretty great.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 March, 2020, 05:31:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

A post of two six parts

Part 6

Well you'll have to excuse me as I'm back already. Mainly cos this is such a rich period for 2000ad, bit I'll cram two posts into one to save you coming back twice.

Firstly so Grennie gives us a masterclass as to what you can do in 6 pages of Dredd and Wagner of course strikes back to show you quite what you can do with 6 episodes in the first half of Mandroid. So what does he do I hear you cry, why he sets up a new aspect of the MC1 military systems and sets up our leds. He then drops them back in MC1 and sets up what a cruel city it is, even for war hardened folks. He makes these war hardened folks both bleak and harsh yet sympathetic and rounded. You care about them... a lot... but as said Wagner has set up the brutality of MC1 and so he also has space and time to make that pay... twice... in frankly emotionally draining ways. You feel the pain, you live the grim reality. Oh man do you feel it.

But he's not done, on no. So having done all this he turns the story down a new path and it naturally migrates into a bitter, thrilling vigilante action piece.

And in all this I've not mentioned Dredd, but needless to say Wagner hasn't and while all that is going on he's been providing some wonderful character work on Dredd. In a back drop so terrible he manages to make Dredd the figure of compassion to so yet more sides to our often mischaracterised one dimensional law machine. The story has some of the finest Dredd character moments I can remember, Joe that ol' softy!

All of this is rendered quite superbly by Kev Walker. Who someone completely captures the dark reality we are being presented, the vicisous cutting tale, yet making it feel effortlessly easy on the eye. Its an absolute masterclass.

Part 2

While Dredd is in rich form we have two other thrills finishing. Firstly the decent 'Breathing Space' its a tight, engaging thriller by Rob Williams before the was Rob Williams I guess. Only slightly let down by the dark art by Laurence Campbell and L (?) Townsend with colours by Peter Doherty. It all looks great but at time the storytelling gets a little to up close and personal and it can lose its clarity. Still this tale of a good cop trying to break shake the broken system has a brilliant sting in the tale (deliberate for once) and is gripping.

Secondly the brilliant Savage Book 2 - Out of order quite wonderful fleshes out a Britain post Invasion and the actions of our terriorist hero, the authorities he rallys against, the brutality of a people and indeed family, under this rule and the madness it takes to fight it. Never has Bill Savage looked so broken and unbreakable. Its gripping, thrilling and while Uncle Pat does fill it with his 'typical' political dogma (well it is dogma by this point) he shows when he does it with guile and not at the expense of story it has far more impact than when its hammered home. Brilliant story.

So with all these good stories falling away we're in trouble right, well no that couldn't be more wrong as Sinister Dexter '...And Death shall have no dumb minions' and one of the best Red Seas stories 'Underworld' fill the gaps. Well 2005 really is a time of riches and more than the sum of its magnificent parts.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 March, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
And Mandroid finishes with a blast as well doesn't it. A dark and emotional blast but a blast all the same.

Times are so good that once we end some thrills as 'filler' we get decent Rogue Trooper and chuffin' excellent 'Tales of the Leviathan'.

Tharg is smearing us all over with the lovely juice of his organ here he really is.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 20 March, 2020, 03:40:35 AM
Mandroid is one of my favorite Dredd stories of all time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 March, 2020, 09:27:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Alls well that ends well

I've reviewed Leatherjack before on this good ol' board and when I did it was as much a conversation about John Smith as the story itself. No shame in that but this really is a brilliant peice of work. Paul Marshal is on top form and some of his designs are exquiste and hideous in equal appropriate measure.

Mr Smith is on the finest of forms as he explores story and words and identity and all sorts. But for all that, all the ideas and concepts John Smith wordsmiths his way into, for all the themes and illusions he crafts with letters that I know are that I glimpse out the corner of my eye, half realising before I move on to the next bit of genius. For all that what I don't think I say often enough is that John Smith rights a bloody cracking yarn.

Strip away the word play, strip away the high concept, strip away the compelling themes and metaphor and you still have a blistering thrill ride. A tale of fascinating characters, brutal hideous villians, alien worlds that feel real as hyper-real combat, bombast, dialogue. Yeah strip away all the good stuff and you are left with, well all the other good stuff.

And so Leatherjack marks a real highpoint in 2005... but its surrounded by other greats 'And Death shall have no dumb minions' is absolutely fantastic Sinister Dexter, just fantastic. Ray and Finny once again fall to their lows when they seperate and here the cost are dear and the stakes once again feel high. The consequences real and the drama (mela) just wonderfully timed again as a perfect build to a truly thrilling conclusion is weaved and then blown open.

Another great story in a much loved (by me) ongoing series is Red Seas 'Underworld'. The story itself lacks some of the punch of previous tales of Jack and crew, but what it does so well is open the story up and make you realise this will be more than a series of loosely connected tales. Or at least it adds real emphasis to this and for that makes the story as a whole really grow.

So 2005 end... except we have a Special again... one that's not so special but then we'll look back on 2005 and I think we have a decision on just how special a year in thrill power this has been...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 March, 2020, 09:30:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2005

So 2005 was an interesting year. I'm not dating my wife and she's already asked me to marry her, what can I say I'm a keeper. Okay so I've not get cuddled back into Tharg's arms again but I'm reading comics again in a big way, but drinking and smoking less (I actually quit smoking in 2005 yah me). I'm still a dunderhead, but I'm started to fill the voids in my life with positive things and soon that biggest void will be filled. And no I'm not talking about marriage and kids that's for sure.

In the Prog we have an important question to answer and I'll tell you why I'll not answer it at then end of this post. As ever lets start with what I saw was coming at the end of 2004.

QuoteSo all that's left is predictions for 2005 and frankly things will slowly and steady get better as will life. We'll have some of the best Sinister Dexter and Sweden, we have our last Glastonbury and Caballistics Inc (I think), we'll be in full ATP swing and we'll have Red Seas and Leatherjacks. It will be a good year and I'm looking forward to reliving it.

And rather than answer it now noticed the other day - when wondering what I'd said about Leatherjack in the past - I stumbled across a review of this year I wrote back in 2010 when I first(ish) joined this forum and had read these issues for the first time. As I was pretty on the nose back then.

QuoteI normally review individual stories or a couple grouped together [Now Mr YNWA here - I did back then I joined the forum while doing a Prog slog in 2008 and by this stage I was catching up with the Progs I'd missed during my wilderness years] but I think 2005 deserves a bit of a special review as its quite possibly one of the best years in Thrill-Power's history. I've enjoyed these progs (2005 and 1420 - 1468) so much and they've been up there for me with the Progs of the last couple of years.

They've been so damned consistant. Sure there's been a few things I've not enjoyed but you can count them literally on the fingers of one hand. I think the thing that's really made this year work is that a lot of the regulars have been on fire and Tharg now has so many of them in the pot that even if strips like Sinister Dexter (which will get a special mention elsewhere) and Dante don't get as big a showing as they have in previous years there's enough other stories now strong enough to keep the comic going at an absolute amazing standard.

Newer regulars (or semi regulars, or regulars in waiting whatever) like Red Seas (I loved Underworld and learnt more about Jack's crew in this story than I have in everything I've read before and since), VCs, Invasion, Robo-Hunter, Shakara, Low Life, Atavar, Caballistics Inc. carry the Prog up to heights its not been at for a while, not because its been bad the last few years, far from it in fact, just that's it was all so good in 2005, so very good.

The new stuff while not always perfect has added a lot of difference styles and story types to the mix as well, while all being very much in the 2000ad mold, American Gothic, Breathing Space, Second City Blue, Tiger Sun, Dragon Moon had verying degrees of success but all added something to the Galaxie's Greatest. You also get your stone wall classic in the shape of Leatherjack too.

Finally Dredd has been on top form. Some of the best none Wagner Dredd's I can remember, ones that hold their heads high in the company of Dredd's best, the Wagner's speak for themselves of course.

2005ad The Galaxies Greatest Comic.

See nailed it - 2010 Mr YNWA rocked and knew his stuff (nah still a dunderhead but less so). Now Mr YNWA doesn't have much to add to that at all fair to say.... well except one thing 2005 was such a good year it leaves a awkward question. If 1986 and 1999 are competing for best year in thrillpower does 2005 join in that conversation. I do have an answer to that and its yes. 1999 was a glorious anomaly in that it sprang fully formed from some rough (if slowly improving) times and while the Prog was good since a year hasn't got close to it. 1986 is the very Zenith of the comics growth and development the perfect counterpoint between what the Prog was coming from and what it was going to. 2005 is the first year when it feels like the modern Prog is absolutely in place. So completely. And that one reason why it so good.

The answer I won't give however is whether its the best yet and the reason its getting to hard to call and always the one you've just read will get it. There's no need for a definative list of the best years - in order - its pointless and fliud - won't say that'll stop me doing it, but anyhoo its pointless defo. But the mere fact that I'm talking about this year in that company says so much.

So we're left with my traditional look ahead. I doubt 2006 will be this good, in fact I'm pretty confident it won't be. I'm also pretty confident it will be bloody good though. I suspect I'll be saying this most year and I fear for poor old 2006 it will become one of the first in a number of years which don't get the attention they more fully deserve as they are surrounded by so many other great years.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 March, 2020, 09:12:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Winter Special with a chill not a thrill

Well the Specials have increasingly become about giving new talent a break... or had they have of course disappeared for a few years now, in Selfabsorbed land. The 2005 Winter Special , the first special in 9 years at least has the honestly to but that remit front and centre. Alas it takes things a little too far. Not only does each strip have at least one new creator most of them are new concepts to and its all a little too much. I guess testiment to the problems is the fact that none of these stories and not many of the creators have come back to the Prog and certainly not to any great degree.

Even John Wagner's scripts for some competition winners aren't... well winners.

We do get a Rogue Trooper story by Grennie and Richard Elson to tie into the recently released (or was it soon to be) Rogue Trooper game, but its nowt outstanding.

The writers and artists guides are fun mind.

Alas while the sentiment is to be applauded the reality is a little to raw.

So with that done at least we can go to pastures new with 2006.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 March, 2020, 09:34:15 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The shadows cast by the brightest of lights - Early 2016

So 2005 was a real high in thrillpower. The problem is with such highs is of course they are very hard to maintain. Or more accurately while they are hard to maintain the main issues is they set the bar so high that otherwise fine Progs don't seem so good and such is the case with the start of 2006. So notes on that time to illuminate (as we'll see not enough) the point.

1. Prog 2006 is fine. Another start of year Prog rather than end of year special.

2. Though there's a fantastic epilogue to one of 2005's many highlights in Sinister Dexter - Festive Spirits, which some seem to feel would have left the strip in a good place to wrap up. As I've discussed before poppycock.

3. Lovely art by MIke Avon Oeming on a not brilliant second Dredd in the issue by Robbie Morriosn

4. But again the strip may be harder looked on after the first, quite exceptional Dredd Class of '79 by John Wagner.

5. The new year starts with what could be a superb line-up Dredd by Wagner (and Goddard), Ten Seconders by WIlliams and Harrison, Caballistics Inc, Slaine and Strontium Dog.

6. Slaine, with the otherwise glorious Clint Langley has gone from being too shiny to being too dark in Carnival. It glows still with the campfires and torches of Ukko's show but this story isn't the return to form I remember it being. Its loose and yet pointed  and jarring at times. The characters seem to fulfil function and purpose rather than be natural.

7. Ten-seconders is better, the end produce of years of stories pointing out that superheroes would do terrible things in 'reality' as a motly crew and mysterious Reedy scientisit try to fight back. Much like Clint Langley's art on Slaine this is a change from the shiny art he provided in Durham Red but has become dark and bitter on the eye. It suits the atmophere of the story perfectly but alas muddies the storytelling.

8. Strontium Dog - A shaggy dogs tale - feels slight after 2004's fantastic Traitor to his kind. Its a fun breather with a fantastically surprise at the end but little more.

9. But there's a second Wagner so one solid one isn't a problem, except Your Breaking Heart is strangely uninspiring... quite why escapes me its an interesting idea, with an intriguing twist... but for some reason it just doesn't quite gell for me. Especially after some brilliant Dredd in 2005, again maybe it just suffers a little in comparison.

10. When Strontium Dog falls away after 4 issues we get more Synnamon... who knew there was more Synamon, I'd completely forgotten this one and alas on re-read I know why...

11. Caballistics Inc continues to be superb.

12. And Slaine gives way to ABC Warriors, we get some slight filler and the curiously short introduction to Harry Kipling which doesn't give enough to judge just yet.

So while there is little to complain about here, unlike 2005 there is also little to shout about, or not as much at least. Its mainly fine and solid but that makes for poor comparison after previous heights.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 March, 2020, 09:20:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Nothing tooth meaty

Early 2006 is frustrating. As said last time there's nothing wrong with much, but there's nothing to really get you teeth into. It all rolls along with verying degrees of impact and impression but nothing grabs you.

After the strips discussed last time, of which Ten Seconders ends pretty well, we get a dabble of Rogue Trooper, ABC Warriors is frustrating as its fascinating and I think I'll say more about that when it finishes up next time. Then Bec and Kawl has by far its most enjoyable story - for reasons I'm not enthused enough to think about. Then 86ers drifts in all fire and bluster but no real impact. There a nice John Smith and Steve Parkhouse Future Shock (Terror Tale?). Harry Kipling shines its way in, all ethereal flare and then out.

Even the Mighty Yeowell's art on a two part Dredd story lacks a certain punch and I think it part that as he seems to be trying to self computer colour and that lacks bite. In fact the Dredd's as a whole seem to demonstrate the myth if its not Wagner its not Dredd as we get a slue of different folks popping in. Spurrioso does an okay job, Edginton does an okay job, even Grennie's aren't his best, with a story with the 'child' of Chopper I'd completely forgotten about and seems to suggest its coming back... but I can't remember it doing so...

...so yeah there's just nothing in early 2006 (aside from Caballistics Inc) to get your teeth into... mind then Lobster Random pops up to give us something to get our claws into (or pinchers) and Low Life is heading our way so fingers crossed... as I'm chumping at the bit.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 March, 2020, 10:03:01 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

A plot of ideas leaves Warriors a shadow of their former selves.

ABC Warriors - Shadow Warriors Book 3 demonstrates a trait that happening more and more in Uncle Pat's work over the last few years (self absorbed time). I've mentioned it before, but as I mentioned I find this story both frustrating and fascinating as so I'll try to explain the point.

The story is a 10 part battle between the ABCs and eponymous Shadow Warriors. The ABCs newer, cooler, more deadly counterparts and its all gloriously rendered by Henry Flint. The trouble is it is essentually a ten part battle. Yet it fills all ten parts quite easily, why, well with all things Uncle Pat its filled with amazing, imaginative ideas.

So what the problem???

Well its filled with amazing, imaginative ideas and at times, as so often, Uncle Pat seems so beguiled by those ideas that he loses sight of the story and the fact they need to be driven by characters, not just the ideas be they political polemic, scientific denial or flights of glorious fancy. Now don't get me wrong some of them are so good that I happily roll with them. I mean Blackblood being turned inside out is just fantastical and what turns you on or off will always be subjective with these daliances. There just feels like there's too many of them driving the story*, not enhancing the story.

Its evident in the very first part of the strip. The Shadow Warriors and their ABC Warriors counterparts are cleverly introduced by the villian's weapons of choice, fired towards their 'goodie' opposite. They are fun, but seven of them, half utterly silly in quick succession, turns them from a tool of clever expoistion avoidance into over egged nonsense. Made worse by the fact that the nonsense seems to stem from the fact that Uncle Pat had a list of bullet ideas and some worked, some didn't, but he hammered ahead 'cos it was a good idea.*

Possibly the greatest example of Uncle Pat's folly is the dastardly fate that awaits Hammerstein as captured by the dread enemies, who are in the ascendancy (until the end when they are not for ... mainly as the ABCs aren't as defeated as they seemed, but that's not the point I'm trying make here... although maybe it is...) and the evil Doctor Maniacus  implants two nanobot (quite big nano but again I digress) parasite robosnakes that eat robot brain, one a day, and turn Hammerstein into a trojan horse sent back to the Warriors - our giant metallic titans - who have survived so much - seemingly doomed by two robot brain eating snakes... no really all of that is in there. Now fair to say so much of 2000ad requires you to suspend belief, or more likely get sweep along with the raw thrillpower of the story so you don't even notice what you are reading is utter pockycock and so often it does that so well.
So often Uncle Pat does that so well.

But really this idea so enthralls Uncle Pat that he runs with it for 3 or 4 episodes and gets utterly diluted and looses all impact. And in the end it turns out the snakes hate their master a lot, more than they hate Hammerstein, so they'll just eat Doctor Maniacus robobrain instead... or something...

Its just nonsense and doesn't serve the story, or characters at all, drags on for 3 plus episodes and then just ends, cos Uncle Pat loved the idea, but seemed to have no idea what to do with it, so again he just slammed it in*.

Its at times like this I wish Uncle Pat wasn't so fearsome and terrifying to editors* as I feel a braver editor could have taken this story and hammered it down into a 7 or 8 part Mills classic. But we know one of Matt Smith's great strenghts is his light touch editorship, that allows he creators to run free and produce their best, unfettered by editorial edict*. Its so often works and creates such good will from creators to the title* but sometimes, and so often to Uncle Pat, its a good stories downfall.

The frustrating part is we know when Uncle Pat - who has given us so much and to whom I'm so grateful for some of the best comics I've ever read - lets the story be driven by character and is attentive to plot and pacing he is still brilliant. Recent (in self absorbed time) Savage has more than shown that. He can still fire in ideas by the dozen, but they don't drive the story into corners, nor drown out character, or hammer home theme, they can, when he's being deft of touch, enhance and elevate in the way he's so often done in the past.

Uncle Pat is a genius and he is welcome in the Prog whenever he desires, he's earnt it... I just wish if he can't edit himself Tharg could find the courage to control his father.

*I, of course have no idea if that true?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 April, 2020, 09:16:47 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

     Small things done well

Well having chatted about the failing of a long form story last time I want to quickly mention a couple of shorter tales done so well.

Firstly Prog 1484 see Judge Dredd - Fitness Test a story we've seen before, an older Judge (though still Dredd's junior) being tested to see if he still fit for duty... he's not... and so he opts for the Long Walk. That's it, that's all and yet with so little, with such a simple single idea Grennie and Anthony Williams get so much out of it. Its so powerful and wonderfully excecuted. The final page of Dredd watching overMegway 38 in the place of Murdoch says so much about the impact this simple, undramatic passing has on Dredd. A simple idea, driven by character is so much more effective that 100 ideas swamping character.

Secondly a three part Dante - Usurper. Again a simple, if more dramatic idea. A showdown between pirates to establish control of the seven seas. And for all the drama and the shark pirates and burning zombies these 18 or so pages are simply about the corrosive nature of Dante's relationship with his mother and the apparent need to overthrow her to save children Dante won't abandon in the way his mother did him. Just superb and again the final page, as Morrison and co so often do in these series hits home perfectly. In this instance the idea is there but secondly to the character driven elements of this wonderful story.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 April, 2020, 09:21:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

First mini-break in this 'years' run comes from with one strip still carrying on VCs blasting on through... but weird I'm up to Prog 1490 last in May so nearly half the year through with no natural break yet... mind Prog 1500 just around the corner I guess.

ANYWAY that's not really the point the point this time is to salute two strip ending, not that I've got much to say about them. Firstly Low Life - Con Artist wraps up after seven issues as Aimee's tale enters a Hitman's Conversion with the greatest hitman of them all Blackbird not observing the truce this is meant to bring. BUT as before those hi-jinks and they are very good fun hi-jinks are secondary to the darkening slope we see Nixon continue to slide down.

It's easy to forget that Aimee Nixon had this consistent decent soe wonderfully drawn out in Low Life before it became Dirty Frank's turn fully in the spotlight.

Secondly after 10 episodes Lobster Random's The Agony and the Ecstacy  come to an end. And this books the trend I've been observing of late as much like the recently discussed ABC Warriors this tale is chocker block with ideas and they rattle off ten to the dozen. Its rich, intricate and twisty as we get villains cram full of ingenuity and concept, heck the big bad has a T-Rex stuck to his head... or is he stuck to a T-Rex's chin and its scheme upon scheme, upon scheme. Yet for all that it still feels like its driven by Lobster R as a character the finely craved dressing, so full of hi-falutin' word play and plotting never feels is brilliant window dressing, never overwhelming story or character but lifting them.

Sorry I'm harpin' on and when I come back I'll find a new axe to grind I'm sure...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Victorious Conclusions

So Prog 1495 sees the end of nuVCs and it ends as well as its been throughout. Now I'll get this out the way before I go on, and suspect I've said it a few times before but I'm no fan of the original VCs. It looked great with some wonderful art throughout, but like much of GFD's stuff the concept and art isn't backed up by coherant plot or dialogue and the characters are largely flat.

With NuVCs we once again get wonderful art, starting with the glory that is Henry Flint and then backed up by Anthony Williams at the peak of his powers. Most significently we have Dabnett in what I assume is his absolute wheelhouse.

I say assume as I'm aware that he has written countless Warhammer 3K books and they seem to be very well regarded, but not having read any I don't feel I can be sure. But VCs seems to fall into that area, tough warrior types in far flung future war in a grim and griity tale. Much like Insurrection, Dabnett shows his gift of laying out the scale and grandeur of the conflicit he's using as his setting, but crafts the detail, in a small squad of rich and interesting characters to ramp up the emotional connection and impact.

He's also not afraid of letting characters go, as all good war tales do, as alas we need to feel the lose and grief inherant in conflicit. His troops feel real, in so far as similar fiction has crafted my view of what is real in war. He's not portraying real war, he's portraying really good war fiction, but plays so well with the tropes that you lose sight of the fact you've probably read and seen this a hundred times before. And that's the real skill. Of course in keeping with comments of late one of the key elements of doing this is great characters.

Now like many (most) war heroes in fiction Colonel Smith and his troop are gruff, folks surrounded by grim circumstance and awash with 80s action hero talk. What Dabnett, supported by his wonderful artists bring these characters to life, does is expand them beyond this, giving them another level, not necessarily massively deep or original, but with enough spark and vitality to make you care about them and feel the peril they are in with them. Some tales seem to skip this and leave only the bearest trace of this extra that we need to connect. Storys that fail in this department don't create the illusion of characters with depth, the way Dabnett is able to and thus equally thrilling scenarios lack the same impact.

VCs also manages to pull off the ending, though for the life of me until about 2 or 3 pages to go I saw no way it could possilby do so. The final episode sees characters that have been central to the series met a fitting end for that emotional punch, has action and violence a plenty for prerequiste thrills BUT also manages a neat trick at the end with a false ending. Selecting to finish at a point in the story that gives just enough of a close to allow us to 'know' where the end is going, without having to take us there in detail now all the flash - bang - whollop is over. We are lead to our own ending, without needing to drag things out. It leaves things open, but allows us to close things off ourselves. Very neatly done.

This final preProg 1500 lineup has some decent stuff in Dredd, a strangely out of focus London Falling by Spurrioso and Lee Garbett - is it relatively early computer art that makes this look a bit blurry and undefined? and a lot of bits and bats of varying quality filling corners here and there. Thank heavens then for 'Red Seas - The Hollow Land' so Harryhausenly giving full life to a very animated and wonderful story.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 09 April, 2020, 12:46:04 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
So Prog 1495 sees the end of nuVCs and it ends as well as its been throughout...
VCs also manages to pull off the ending, though for the life of me until about 2 or 3 pages to go I saw no way it could possilby do so. The final episode sees characters that have been central to the series met a fitting end for that emotional punch, has action and violence a plenty for prerequiste thrills BUT also manages a neat trick at the end with a false ending. Selecting to finish at a point in the story that gives just enough of a close to allow us to 'know' where the end is going, without having to take us there in detail now all the flash - bang - whollop is over. We are lead to our own ending, without needing to drag things out. It leaves things open, but allows us to close things off ourselves. Very neatly done.

I love your very charitable reading of that truncated ending! Personally I felt it was a bit more Tharg saying 'Wrap it up now, lads' and a book that was not originally intended as the final book having to be hastily rewritten.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2020, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 09 April, 2020, 12:46:04 PM
I love your very charitable reading of that truncated ending! Personally I felt it was a bit more Tharg saying 'Wrap it up now, lads' and a book that was not originally intended as the final book having to be hastily rewritten.

Well that's kinda in keeping with thrills of old then too!

ANYWAY just a quick pop back as I've got a free day off work as a thank you from my powers that be for all the that's gone into setting up remote working (and cos our VC was knackered I think and so wanted to have a break, so felt we all should!). Anyway been investing the time well in doing a little bonus reading and got to 1499 and having one of my a wee breaks to read other things. But thought I'd come here with plenty more to say but...

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
Thank heavens then for 'Red Seas - The Hollow Land' so Harryhausenly giving full life to a very animated and wonderful story.

Actually says all that needs to be said there. Folks who read my twoddle long before this re-read know what a fan of Red Seas I am and this revisit isn't changing that view a jot. Its one of Tharg's finest and while re-read after re-read doesn't add anything particularly, thinking that's a problem is a bit like thinking there's no point watching Don Chaffney's 'Jason and the Argonauts' again when you see it on telly.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 09 April, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
This final preProg 1500 lineup has some decent stuff in Dredd,... and a lot of bits and bats of varying quality filling corners here and there.

Also says all that needs to be said. 'Harry Kipling (Deceased)' is a curious beast that never really becomes a thing of any substance or value (and I think its done now already?) and 'Go Machine' is a fun little distraction. A good 3riller before its time. Red Seas is doing double shifts to get done too, so there's not even too many Future Shocks - though there is one being discussed elsewhere as it happens.

So yeah one of the earlier examples of Tharg peddling a little as he kills space before a relaunch Prog - a skill he has varying success with over the years and with that a quick break and back soon.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 April, 2020, 01:03:58 PM
(https://m.imgur.com/GDUBOyR?r)

Short tales of big Import

As we head towards probably the most important Prog in the Prog's history... well in self absorbed terms anyway... we get some short little filler... well it not is it we get a pretty weird run of tales that actually while short(ish) 6 episode or there abouts all provide significence in one form or another... oh and Banzai Battalion which has become less and less engaging as its gone on and if I'm honest I find this final tale entirely forgetable (and if I'm honest until I save the cover to 1501 I had forgotten).

The rest of the tales I'll discuss now, just before I get to the self absorb bits later today no doubt, which will deflect from these wonderful stories and they deserve better.

First we have Stone Island, probably the least significent but a tale I really enjoy and significence is found in introducing full frontal male nudity into the Prog. Edgington's story provides a great vehicle for Simon Davis to let rip with wonderfully acted grizzily horror. Its just horrific fun.

Dredd - The Connection a fantastic tale in and of itself by Wagner and Walker set up Origins coming very soon and you can make a case - or I do / will make the case that Origins really sets the foundations for the next 6ish years of Dredd right up to Day of Chaos. Its almost a self contained period in its own way. So this story is to me a bit like 'Letter From a Democrat' in that it - all be it more explicity - is the first step in a much, much bigger tale.

Nikolai Dante - Dragon's Island ends our heroes rather wonderful and I think very underrated high seas pirate adventures. I think sceduling may have damaged the reputation of these fantastic adventures and I'd urge everyone go back and reappraise them. They are utterly thrilling and peel away so much of Dante's past and in this ending set up his future for some time to come. Its brilliant stuff with wave after wave of beautiful and dynamic art by the sublime John Burns.

Finally we get Malone. I said the following about this masterpiece when I first read it 10 years ago.

QuoteHaving read the whole thing during my catch-up I kinda got the same impression. Its a great story, it looks great but knowing now what I know now it reads like a fun Sinister Dexter story with the clues slowly dropping into place. I love the way Dan Abnett drops in little hints in the dialogue. I ain't ever going to get that buzz of the big reveal.

That's the problem with a story like this set up really for the twist at the end. Oh they certainly can be enjoyed for themselves but you kinda know you missed something and will never quite know what it is to read it live and I suspect be genuinely surprised.

And I'd stand by that except to say that on re-read of a re-read of a catch - which it is by now - it really holds up. As all thoughts of the surprises its holds in store are gone I can enjoy it fully as the wonderful tale it is. Jez Dabnett sure dropped the clues in to the reveal quite wonderfully. Though with enough guile that my impression is folks reading 'live' didn't make the call. Its simply brilliantly done - but heavens to Betsy folks looking back you must be kickin' ya selves as the clues are there from the smoking lady, to the changing speech patterns, just brilliant.

As well as setting up the next stage for - and I'll not use spoiler tags for a 15 year old story (and more to come so if you've not read this period look away now) - looking away, no really stop reading and come back when you have - Sinister Dexter its the first twist of this type I can remember since Dead Man and starts a mini trend as I recall with other great twists coming in Dead Eyes and The Vort.

So yeah these issues between 1500 and 1506 hold a surprising amount of significence in Prog terms, but as we'll see next time they hold so much more significence in self absorbed terms...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 April, 2020, 04:25:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Messy memory and matters of importance

I always get this wrong. Whenever I look back at this most important moment in my adult life, more affirming than marriage or brith of children and such nonsense I get it wrong. I've been whittering about returning from the wilderness, reborn due to the 30th Annivesary, but that's not true, never has been. My mind twists this most important of times, this supreme event, its sheer gavity maybe spinning it in my head.

The truth of it is.

There I am back in September 2006, now married, safely settled in a new home. I've returned to comics, pretty big time, I'm reading plenty of Marvel for my sins, getting everything Civil War (all since done and gone), The Flash is leading me into DC and in my new home I've made space in my attic display for all my old 2000ad, large swaths filled from the gaps in my previous reading, most issues up to 1000... dusty but happy photographs from the past. Then, one fine day I see a BBC article, a beacon in this fog of spandex about a new Judge Dredd story, my interest is peaked, I'm delighted to see that 2000ad is still there, my once true and only love looking fine. So I call her up and check out how she's doing.

Popping Tharg Organ back on my pull list I actually miss the issue I'd read about, 1505 and the first one to land is 1506, no matter, we've got so much to catch on. Its an awkward first date, so many tales told aren't mine, don't feel complete to me, as I'm looking back from outside, trying to remember exactly what it was that captured my heart so completely in those past days.

Her Dredd is still all lovely and well formed, the its presented here that reminds me how big and exciting Tharg's Dredds are. But aside from that its all quite new. Things I don't remember about her that don't fit into my recollections, Russian pirates that fighting clones... that's not Slaine, but yeah it is a beautiful thing to behold. Tales ending about a man I don't know finding his soul and memories, interesting but at this point it doesn't speak to me. Then there's this new thing, this horror thing all kinda trying to be grown up and brutal, this isn't what I remember. This isn't the comic I left.

Its changed.

But then so have I, so maybe I should embrace that change, not expect this figure of such importance to me to have stayed the same, to have had no life, while I've been through so much myself without it. Of course it should have grown and developed, just as I hoped I had.

And those changes would make it a little tricky at first, it would make the exchanges between us not as I remember, not as simple and instinctive as they used to be, not as natural. But because of that they'd be so much more. The real thrill of discovery, or rediscovery. The tingling joy of exploring again, of learning and embracing the new and different. While finding, reassuringly at its heart, while we both had changed the things that had thrown us together so dynamically, so dramatically, so passionately in our fumbling and callow youths where still there. Those essential bonds hadn't changed. We'd both learnt new things, we'd both grown, we'd even started to dress different, hang out with a different crowd and embrace the new and changing worlds in which we'd found ourselves.

But the most important things hadn't changed and for all the fear and excitment - in equal measure - that clouded my view. For all the superficial and substancial ways we'd both drifted apart, the important thing, the thing that throw us together was still there and I was about to embark on a journey, with all relationships ups and downs - of refinding that very thing...

That me and 2000ad were are for each other.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Fungus on 19 April, 2020, 04:11:05 AM
Interesting to hear how other folk's Wilderness ended, cheers.

I returned with 1800 (as some others here did, if memory serves). Wish I could remember if I sought out the prog or just stumbled upon it. Genuinely can't remember. Beneath a Bisley cover (which I didn't even register), the stories felt very crammed, very knowing. Definitely adult. A different beast, and I was pleased that the prog was there - it was painfully poor in the 90's when I just gave up - but it would be some weeks till I 'got it'. Now, that feels no different to my experience in 1980, and seems quite apt...

Within a few weeks we had Trifecta, and then the incomparable (return of) Stickleback. A return to the fold. Unlike you I was reading *nothing* at this stage. The Prog & Meg led to a US habit and that lasted years. Pull list later gave way to occasional trades, but Tharg remained... As people's tastes tend to 'comfort' in these tricky days, we can be more grateful than ever...?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 April, 2020, 06:43:49 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 19 April, 2020, 04:11:05 AM
Interesting to hear how other folk's Wilderness ended, cheers.

Yeah defo - bring your tales of return folks. Thanks so much for sharing yours Fungus.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 April, 2020, 09:16:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

So we reach the end of 2006, such an important year for me and Thrillpower. Its interesting to reflect on these early steps in by return to our relationship. The early issues aren't in retrospect that good - especially when you think about the quality just around the corner (in relative terms) but things quickly ramp up and I have a few quicks thoughts on the end of 2006 and the start of my blooming love (again).

1. Prog 1507 has an odd feature Chiaroscuro starts to flicker into action - more on that later - at the start of the Prog, with Dredd apparently relegated to the back. I assume this is a production error?

2. The issues sees Stone Island end with doors open, aliens out a (welcome) return just around the corner.

3. Dante's pirating days also end in the same Prog with quite the cliffhanger,  with an image that has been my phone background for quite some years now. Just love it as Dante, facing almost certain death calmly looks at the reader and "...if you've got to go, you might as well go in style!". John Burns is an absolute master.

4. Prog 1508 has a wonderful tribute to Tom Frame, clearly one of Tharg's greatest and best loved servants, who sadly passed during 2006.

5. It also features another start to a wonderful relationship as Anthony Williams take Finny back to Downlode and starts a run on Sinister Dexter that, unlike many - I'm very, very fond of, as The Many Moses saga really kicks off after many years of build up.

6. 86ers also makes a return... and washes right over me. Its a strip that just doesn't take to the air for me and just skims along.

7. Prog 1509 then sees Harry Kipling (Deceased) return (unexpected) but this one also skims over me and leaves little or no impression.

8. Prog 1511 starts the ramping up big time as the triumvirate that once saved the Prog returns and unbeknownst to me probably cements my return. With Dante becoming the Sword of the Tsar with a return of Simon Fraser. These three thrills on top form just grabbed me...

9... except they didn't really. At the time I was really enjoying Sinister Dexter as its clever word play and simply drawn wonderful character... well character as no Dexter yet just grabbed me. Dante however was an immediate hit. Reading back I can see why, it was fun and exciting but I wasn't yet bought in. Not having the background the emotional impact and importance of this tale didn't yet resonate with me. It was fun but nothing more...

10... Then Dredd. Its Carlos and Wagner on a Mega Epic and felt like a welcoming warm blanket to a returning reader. The welcoming arms of an old love pulling me in to the new things to learn and explore. The trouble is those arms where going through their own things (errr should have dropped that over extended metaphor a while ago shouldn't I - oh well in for a penny... ) and its not quite sure what to do. The mixing of backstory and new hunt for Fargo just don't quite mesh neaty. Its cleverly done but kinda kills the momentum on each. Shame. I really enjoy this but not as much as I might.

11. Chiaroscuro is another sleeper great. I love this now. The way it aptly feels like a movie, how its paced like the Omen (or similar) its just superb. The trouble is I remember not getting on with the art at the time and I wasn't gelling with this.

12. Prog 1513 brings me my first taste of Red Seas, another series I'd come to absolutely adore, but again its got its own things going on stopping us bonding in the way we will. Its a cute aside, as Newton's trail of Roman Werewolves brings Augustus to the story. Its just a bit of daft fun, but lacks the breathless epic charm of the series as we know it.

13. So as the years ends we have Epic Dredd, a wonderful new horror thrill adding something a bit different, and three long form Stone cold classics, two (Dante and S&D) in absolute top forms and Red Seas maybe not at the crest of its wave but still good. Looking back this is almost the dream line up. But to me then it felt like a slightly clumsy ackward mix and we were both a little nervous in our new embraces.

14. As the year end all the thrills (well Dredd aside with a curious schedule) reach very satisfying endings, well okay Red Seas is a bit Scooby Doo, but Dante is brilliant, Sinister Dexter gives us Dexter back... with a damaged back and our horror tale pretty much sticks its landing. Its good times, at least in re-read.

So there we are. No specials this year so next time I'll look back at 2006 and hint at my excitment at 2007 as we both get a bit more confident as we get to know each other a bit better again.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 April, 2020, 10:50:00 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2006

Well lets set aside the significence of the years, well for now at least and try to look at 2006 objectively. And as ever with these things I'll first look back at what I predicted the year would bring.

QuoteSo we're left with my traditional look ahead. I doubt 2006 will be this good, in fact I'm pretty confident it won't be. I'm also pretty confident it will be bloody good though. I suspect I'll be saying this most year and I fear for poor old 2006 it will become one of the first in a number of years which don't get the attention they more fully deserve as they are surrounded by so many other great years.

Yeah its getting relatively easy to make these predictions as the Prog is such a consistently brilliant comic at this point (and indeed now) a few even higher up and a few relative lows aside, so this is pretty much spot on. Except I'd say it wasn't bloody good, it was just good. The reason well there's no absolute stand out stone cold classic (nervously looks back to see if he's contradicted himself by using the phrase stone cold classic over the last few posts - there seems to be the odd 'masterpiece' and such like but can't spot a 'stone cold classic'...) or at least not as many as in an absolute standout year.

Sure there are a number of stories that get very, very close. Red Seas has a belter, Dante is on fire throughout, when he turns up, Malone is fantastic, Lobster Random, VCs and Low Life ll excel... absolute nailed on classics though, well its debatable. These are the standards Tharg is setting himself. Chiaroscuro is a really nice stand alone too, but its no Cradlegrave. So yeah there is some really strong stuff but when we right our lists of top ten stories - not that I'd ever feel decisive enough to do that - not many, if any from this year will get in. Dante has been better, Red Seas... maybe has been better, Low Life will get better... etc etc.

If you use Dredd as a yard stick as well its certianly not a bad year, but not the best. Only a few of his tales have compelled me to stand up and salute the comics finest. Its been background good rather than exceptional.

Add to that there has been a fair amount of mind tier stuff. Some new thrills that haven't really taken a grip. Harry Kipling (Deceased), 86ers, the first Ten Seconders (best of this bunch no doubt) and Pat Mills hasn't had a good year either. So yeah there been a lot of middle and even the occasion low tier story.

So there we go, while its been a momentous for me personally for all the reasons I've gone on about in far to much lenght its not actually that momentous in terms of thrills. 'Self Absorbed' YNWA is flirting with a return to the Prog, maybe its not yet the full blown, passionate love affair I've alluded to yet. Now YNWA is looking forward to see how 2007 takes our relationship forward. I think both Now YNWA and 'Self Absorbed' YNWA will be more impressed in 2007 and we'll be getting it on properly, but I think we're still on an upward trend and the absolute zenith of thrill power will be a year or two off.

After all this talk of passion and affairs I'm going to cool down with some Elephantmen - uh er missus - for a little bit, but I'm pretty excited to get back into 2007 so won't be long.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 May, 2020, 09:07:13 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 2007

Not been wittering about the bumper end of year Progs for a while, typically waiting until the new line-up has kicked - but I'd like to make special mention of Prog 2007. I think this is a significent Prog, maybe as its a significent time for me (self absorbed time) but this issue has a few notable firsts.

First first - Clint Langley on ABCs - haven't been enjoying ABCs, haven't been enjoying Clint Langley on Slaine but I have such fond memories of this run and this opening episode as Hammerstein amusingly drops Mekquake off at the Asylum and has memories from deep in his own psyche - if robots have psyches(?). Langley's heavy metal, Warhammer art work is just perfect for this strip and I get the sense - right or wrong - that it brings out the best in Master Mills.

Second first - Stickleback debuts in this one, the first of two classics (see comments below) to kick off. I really enjoy the first Stickleback story but while others really fall for this strip it take me a while after that to get into it again. That said it a much loved story and feels like a story that helps define my time back in the Prog and thus has significence all be it of the self absorbed kind.

Third first - and this one is massively significent the first Kingdom also kicks off and this one is a defo bonafide classic (I think in most folks minds not just self absorbed land). I've always seen this as such a definative 2000ad series, so much about it feels so right, a timeless representation of what the Prog is all about. The thing is in saying that I forget how early it appears in my return to the Prog, only about 6 months in. So I wonder now, is this what helps define and reminds me what modern 2000ad is and thus by this shapes my self absorbed view of what 2000ad is in totality. It will be very interesting to read this again with this question in my mind. Though whether I'll be able to untangle it.

MInd this opening episode reminds me of regardless of what it means to me its bloody good!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 May, 2020, 10:07:55 AM
Something just caught my eye so I'm slipping in a Saturday morning quickie. On picking up Prog 1518 to start the year proper I noticed that on the cover in the Prog Number box where it normally says 'In Orbit every Wednesday' it says 'Nuking your eyes every Wednesday' Intrigued I wondered if this was a one off treat - but seems to carry on for the year at least.

Looked back (via Barney see previous comments about my laziness) and no this seems to be the first regular issue to do this... I decided not to look any further ahead to see of this carries on for some time. I mean I'm pretty dumb headed not to have noticed this before - if it carries on for some time I'm very dumb headed ... which won't surprised regular readers here!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 May, 2020, 08:01:32 PM
Nikolai Dante - Deadly then the male. Dante at his most 'Carry on' but wonderful because of, or inspite of that - depending on your perspective.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 03 May, 2020, 12:20:04 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 02 May, 2020, 08:01:32 PM
Nikolai Dante - Deadly then the male. Dante at his most 'Carry on' but wonderful because of, or inspite of that - depending on your perspective.

I remember disliking this silly story when it ran, but re-reading in the Hachettes a wee while ago I actually really enjoyed it. Ditto the equally cringey African story,which turned out to be quite fun, if you like Burns' cheesecakery at least, which I'm afraid I do.

Could this be the shift to the right with age that everyone keeps assuring me is inevitable?  Or just a slide into dirty-old-manhood? 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 May, 2020, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 May, 2020, 12:20:04 PM
Ditto the equally cringey African story,which turned out to be quite fun, if you like Burns' cheesecakery at least, which I'm afraid I do.

True.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1525 - Snapping your spine every Wednesday and Millsian Musings

So we have a short spurt to start the year, to allow the 30th Anniversary Prog an (almost) clear plate. Both Kingdom and Stickleback are trimuphs. The former as it is so gloriously 2000ad - not just my 2000ad (see previous comments) high octane action adventure, tough, but engaging lead, a quiet disrespect for humanity and a strong vein of dark humour. Perfect thrill. The latter is possibly more subtle and this might by why subsequent Sticklebacks didn't work for me for sometime (we'll see how that holds this time). I love the way our titular hero villian is kept in the background, adding to his mystery and intrigue. The next couple of taile will pull him to the fore as I recall, removing more of the enigma?

These two are also joined by a fantastic Low Life with babies, bottles and Frank in the led. Also a nice Dredd comes along after some marvelous Wagner shorts to give Carlos a chance to catch up with Origins. 'Judgement' by Grennie has some quite exquisite Ian Gibson art. Its so lush and awash with watercolour and design. I'm very interested to compare his art here with the art in the upcming return of Samantha Slade. I suspect it will lead to the suspision that he puts in a lot more time to scripts he likes? We'll see.

Anyway all of that is secondary to what I want to talk about. I've come on here over the last few years (self-absorbed time) and done some analysis of why I've not liked a number of Unca Pats stories. I've loved his current ABC Warriors, which is particularly interesting since last time I ripped Pat it was on this strip and the time before it was about Slaine with Clint Langley, who joins him on art here. So how come this time I love it. I wanted to give as much thought and explaination, not only to be fair, but also as I find it fascinatating.

The trouble is I can't.

Its much easier, I think, to catch onto the issues that mean a series, story, or even episode don't work for you. Even if I can't quite express it with the clarity I'd like I at least I've got something to try to articulate what the problems I identify are. When something is good its a lot less easy. Or at least there's less to identify, pull out and point at and this story is a perfect example as to why.

When you enjoy a story very often you are just pulled along. The tale, art and energy just zip you through. I don't think too much about why as I'm too busy enjoying it. When there's problems I find myself pulled from the story and when that happens there is an almost unconsious moment of analysis as your brain asked 'What happened there?' before you try to drag yourself back in.

Here with Millsipops and Clint Langley I'm so engaged, so trusting that what the characters do and say, so busy seeing what I learn about them that all the rest just drops away. I've tried to think about it and all I got is - Its just GREAT.

Okay, okay both talents deserve more, but I ain't got much specific. Langley is, by and large creating very similar design and story choices as he does with Slaine. But here the shiny, epic detail, the brutal points and sharp edges make sense to the story and feel in place as to how the story sits in my mindseye. Unlike with Slaine. Its a personal thing, but here the mechanical world feels riveted and oily in all the ways it should. Even when doing people I like that hyper tight, photocrafted (my work not some attempt to use the correct technical language!) which I find so off putting in Slaine. They stand out, look so polished and almost disjointed against the dirt, dark and rust. But that's right for the story and for me. The robots feel tough and solid, metal and manic, human and inhuman in all the right ways.

As for the story it fair flies along and if Patty is telling us things we heard before and hammering themes we've heard him hammer a million times he's doing it with characters that work, with wit that has energy and guile. His heroes and villians of course blur, but not in the way that has felt forced and cliched in the past (cliched for Millsian works, no one elses I think its fair to say). He also takes his 6767697 ideas but wisely scatters them across mini tales within tales and subplots. This mean they don't feel forced and imposed, rather a carriage to carry both story and characters on their multiple journeys via a sensible, planned route, rather than the ideas driving the stories direction.

In short unlike those previous efforts it all just fits together, rather than being numerous elements trying to be forced into place together.

So while recently I've found failings, here I find the fondness I've had for so much of this masters work.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 May, 2020, 11:29:36 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1526 - Not 30 years old every Wednesday!

That's true turning 30 is a past, my 30th was a blast all be it few years earlier that 2000ad's and during this period my friends also all started to slowly turn 30 and there were some wide nights - some of my favourites. Trouble is they can also be a ball ache to organise. Back then I was single (for my 30th that is) and so had to organise my party myself with the help of friends, money wasn't plentiful, so it was all a bit ramshackled and rough around the edge. But we were young, free and happy so we made the best of it.

Prog 1526, 2000ad's 30th celebration is a bit like that. Its not quite the extravaganser Tharg had pictured I imagine, it was a little rough at the edges, but all for all is full of charm and there's much love evident. Its a shame that Origins was on hiatus as this means we land towards the end of a decent 6 part Dredd (more on which later). The special features, some okay Star Scans, some fun text pieces and a couple of strips suggest the budget wasn't all it might have been. The strips are a wonky Flesh flashback by Millsbomb and - if I'm being brutal - a clearly past his prime Ramon Sola - and a cute Tharg rythming(ish) history of 2000ad by Robin Smith. They have plenty of heart, they are making the best of what they have, but they lack a certain chic.

Its familar friends and golden moments, but maybe lacking a little substance, though the substance is there in part with chilling openings to Dante - 'Hellfire' and Savage Book 3 'Double Yellow' - so yeah I might have got there 5 years earlier but me and Da Tooth had pretty similar 30ths all told.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 May, 2020, 09:43:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Trigger-happy Takes every Friday

Some quick thoughts on Spring 2007.

1. As the Prog starts its 30th year with Prog 1527 it has a pretty good line up. Savage, Robohunter, Future Shocks, Nikolai Dante.

2. I've misjudge Ian Gibson, while the art on 'Robo-hunter - Casino Royal' isn't quite as good as it was on early parts of 'Judgement' it is pretty lush.

3. As 'Judgement' itself approaches its 6th and final part Ian Gibson starts to lose steam. Its still lovely art, but its not as full and flush as it was. I don't think its that Ian G had a preference for one story over another (speculation anyhoo anyway) it was probably just too damned bloody hard to keep the standard he set himself on the first few parts of the 'Origins' interlude!

4. In Prog 1528 we have a classic line-up of top class thrills as Sinister Dexter drops in.

5. By 1529 Origins is back with a jolt - it kinda just kicks off highlighting the break was a scheduling thing, its return feels clumsy - but I'll whitter more about Origins in the morning I think.

6. That said even with a slightly stumbling Dredd epic by Wagner and Ezquerra is still fine stuff and both Dante and Sinister Dexter are in golden times and the Mighty Trinity being back together is a joy to behold.

7. Prog 1531 sees Casino Royale end and by the end Ian Gibson's art has become a little loose with nicely washed backdrops rather than fully rendered backgrounds. Character moments lean a little to heavily on easy meladrama rather than the precision humanity of his finer moments. Still it a very satisfying frolic of a story, even of Samantha goes bust at the end.

8. Prog 1531 also sees the end of 'Nikolai Dante - Hellfire' its six parts of hellbound classic as Dante plans the long game, plots to get Lula one way or another and has more family drama than is found in 12 years of Eastenders. Its just magnificent and thrilling. When it needs to be it packs an emotional punch as well. Damn its good.

9. That said I think when I read this back in self absorbed time I still think I was beginning to feel it but still didn't quite appreciate it, or what a fantastic line-up I was seeing. I knew this was good and I think it would be here I started to realise I was here to stay. But I don't think I quite realised how good this was.

10. 'Savage - Double Yellow' was a significent part of that. I loved this at the time (I seem to recall) and with this and what with ABC Warriors being back on top form I think Pat Mills had a massive part in getting me absolutely sold again. How fitting given what his work had meant to me in the past.

11. Should also say that 'Savage - Double Yellow' holds up very very well. Charlie Adlard's art plays a very big part in making this so very good, while its awash with clumsy political comment, Millsian tropes and brutal action, like the best of Millipops its all driven by the characters and in this case feels so gritty in a very real action, meladrama way.

12. Prog 1533 sees the end of the Sinister Dexter story that I think was star of the show for me when I first read these issues. Its all so easy to love even if you don't have the back story as all you need is there. Some Irish bloke schemes to bust his broken friend out of jail. Its a jolly caper with certificate 18 violence, supreme dialogue and stone cold cool. Its just wonderful - oh and glorious Simon Davis art at his very peak too. Should have finished with 'And Death shall have ...' my arse!

13. I think that Tiernan Trevallion's first art for Tharg in Prog 1533 - I think - a lot earlier than I expected and its very good already.

14. Prog 1534 sees Detonator X exploded into the Prog with a punchy piece of B-movie explositiony neatly hidden in a truly thrilling monster mash. Its quite the introduction... don't think it will hold mind.

15. Prog 1535 sees Origins end - more in the morning - and take Savage with it. A decent Dante in 'The Beast of Rudinshtein' ends also after 4 beautiful John Burns parts seeing Victor back. So all(ish) change and a good point for me to shut up.

Spring 2007 was a very good time for me to be taking baby steps into getting it on again with Tharg. I was blessed, even if I didn't fully appreciate it at the time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 May, 2020, 06:54:35 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Origins

I was going to whitter on about Origins this morning but before doing so I thought I'd check in, not on self absorbed Colin but 2010 Colin and he got it all pretty spot on. Seems 2010Colin was pretty atuned to NowColin unlike poor old SelfabsorbedColin who still had so much to learn.

Mind since all the Colins are lazy beggers I'm going to just reduce, reuse, recycle so from a plague free world...

Quote
...When I first read this I was just getting back into 2000ad and certainly didn't really think it was all that. It was fine just not great. Now with a little more 2000ad umph behind me and basking in the glory that was 'Tour of Duty' it certainly makes for an interesting read.

Its hard, if a little unfair, not to compare it to both the recent epic [as it was then] and also 'Life and Death of Johnny Alpha'. Compared to the first it lacks some of the fine subtle character moments and a lot of the charm and originality. Compared to the later it faces its biggest problem. 'Life and Death' found a really interesting way of flashing back and telling a story from yester year. It felt plausible and natural. The flashbacks in 'Origins' on the other hand feel forced and contrived. It feels like two stories crammed together.

Having said all that however I really quite enjoyed it. Both the stories, all be it crammed together, are pretty good fun to read. The trail through the Cursed Earth to eventually meet the villian of the piece is fantastic fun, if not Wagner at his most brillant, certainly at his most entertaining. The flashbacks give a very honest and interesting reflection on the creation of Dredd's world and for me were the best part of the whole thing. It carries the weight of the epic nature of the story its telling really well, being both epic but not bombastic and is a great tale.

The ending did seem a little rushed, as though everyone had just lost a little momentium with the whole thing... well until that final scene between Dredd and Fargo which is just perfect and sets up so much and has such a massive impact on Dredd's world. That scene felt like to came from 'Tour of Duty', quite brillant.

Its goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that it looks great throughout. Some fantastic work by Carlos Ezquerra means each page brims with character and excitment.

Flawed, fun and fascinating.

All I can add is that ending is sublime. The moment between Dredd and Fargo magnificent but now looking back the moment between Dredd and Hershey, both seeming to shield things from one another feels almost as important. It might not have been perfect getting there but the end of Origins is and sets up so much and we are feeling some of that even today.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 May, 2020, 12:42:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Punishing the guilty every Wednesday - Pat Mills and me

I type a lot about Uncle Pat here, both good and ill and I do wonder why? Well I was about to wade into another one of my short comments bits when I realised actually a LOT of what I was going to say was on that age old topic and I stopped and thought a little as to why. I came to the following:

1. Pat Mills is so important to 2000ad and therefore me (in terms of how I consume fiction) that I pay him more attention
2. Because of 1 his work speaks to me directly I think.
3. He's marvellously consistent in his writing on the whole BUT this strangely exposes incredible inconsistancy in how I react to his writing.
4. He's a bloody interesting chap.

So today I think I'm focusing on 3 as what dominated my thoughts this time was the start of both Greysuits (loved it then, love it now) and Defoe, struggled with it then struggled with it now.

Right off the bat I'm going to park the art, though that is a factor. I adore John Higgins' art on the first Greysuits - some of my favourite art by him. I also don't get on with Leigh Gallagher's art - I find it a bit fussy and his exceptional detail I can fine a little distracting and can detract from clarity. Both these views are, of course, utterly subjective but they are there and definately impact on my enjoyment of the stories. Heck that's the comic medium for you.

There is nothing wrong with either Defoe of Greysuits, yet my reaction is so utterly different. Both have healthy degrees of ultra violence. I think Greysuits in particular does this well. Its so OTT, yet I've always assumed deliberately so as a call back to the more censored ultra violence of MACH 1. Its so OTT it must be a cheeky call back rather than any real attempt to present when a super secret agent would do to folks faces (and very specifcally jaws - what does Pat Mills have against jaws?) if they smacked them? Both are full to typically Millsian anti authority, Defoe with added historical insight. Both have strong yet engaging male leads. To be honest Defoe is should be more engaging as he is a lot more rounded than Blake in Greysuits. This though is by necessity as Blake is a brainwashed killer just waking to the world he is in. That really makes his flat, hard man delivery work very well though. Both suffer from that annoying insistance Mills has of having 60s and 70s levels of Marvel dialogue while violence is being done.

Both are good comics, yet I love one and don't really like the other and this is where I utter the cliche.

Its not you Pat, its me.

I just think your very specifc style of comic works better with a cold, bitter contemporay spy thriller, than a faux historical zombie nightmare. I mean it shouldn't. I should LOVE the zombie nightmare... but with Mills I don't. Just as when with Clint Langley his work ... well works... for me on ABCs but not Slaine.

So maybe its Pat Mills relative inflexibility that marks his problem? He has a style, he has very specific themes that he sticks so rigidly to. Due to this the more subjective elements determine whether one strip works while another fails? I honestly think thats why my reaction to Pat Mills runs so hot and cold...

...or maybe I just really fancy him and don't have the emotional maturity to accept that!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 11 May, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
I like Mills. I like all his stuff he did for AD but if I had  a criticism it is that lately everything he does feels unoriginal and a rehash of his earlier works. Nothing feels original anymore but I still like what he is doing.  That is maybe why I really like Defoe, for me it feels  different from what he done before.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 11 May, 2020, 01:08:15 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 11 May, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
That is maybe why I really like Defoe, for me it feels  different from what he done before.

This is it for me: can't stand Greysuit, it's one-note preaching positioning itself as fearless red-pill reality, but there's so much originality, variety and broad humour in Defoe that it feels like Old Times Pat and Ilove it: there hasn't been a bad or boring book of it yet.  That, or I too suffer from Colin's sublimated-crush issue.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 13 May, 2020, 08:27:50 AM
Gosh, I didn't know there were people who loved Greysuit but hated Defoe. Fascinating. I'm with the Tordmeister on this one, although I did quite like that first series of Greysuit. It bothers me that Mills is obsessed with the idea that most politicians are secret paedoes. I'm sure a small handful are, but one wonders why he isn't attacking the entertainment industry more, which appears to have a far wore track record...

Meanwhile, this exact era of 2000AD is for me when the modern Golden Age starts, and in part it's precisely because Pat Mills is back back back, with Defoe an all-new concept from him, and the fun of seeing a more unleashed Mills redoing Savage and MACH One (and Flesh around the corner). I seem to like Origins quite a bit more than Colin, too, but agree that it improves with the knowledge of what was to come in Tour of Duty.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 May, 2020, 10:00:35 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 13 May, 2020, 08:27:50 AM
Gosh, I didn't know there were people who loved Greysuit but hated Defoe.

Yeah when we do the great 2000ad fan venn diagram its going to very lonely I suspect in the Greysuits is better than Defoe AND Ant Wars is better than both Harry 20 and Rogue Trooper section I suspect!

Quote from: TordelBack on 11 May, 2020, 01:08:15 PM
That, or I too suffer from Colin's sublimated-crush issue.

Get off him, he's mine...

Quote from: broodblik on 11 May, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
but if I had  a criticism it is that lately everything he does feels unoriginal and a rehash of his earlier works.

Yeah he's doing that a lot at this phase of re-read. Trouble is when he does it well I simply love it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 May, 2020, 09:56:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Smashing the system every Wednesday

Well late spring into Summer is a very interesting period for Tharg's organ. As discussed both Greysuits and Defoe start, with mixed reactions... by which I well most folks thing I'm wrong! There's a lot more besides, time for a quick list.

1. Prog 1536 see Wagner start to get to grips with the post origins Dredd, first by firmly establishing Dredd in context in the wonderful 'Fifty-Year Man' with art by Patrick Goddard.

2. The same Prog also gives us Bob Byrne's Twisted Tales. This single hit silent stories got a pretty hard time from fans but I always found them well told and endlessly inventive. For me of the more successful and interesting done in one formats and I look forward to seeing these pop up.

3. The John Burns Simon Fraser rotation is in full operation during this period and such a delight on the eye. Prog 1537 sees Burns on duty for the cruelly moving one off 'The Dissenter'

4. Prog 1538 sees Simon Fraser take over for the much longer, equally wonderful Thieve's World as Robbie Morrison starts to weave Dante's web further and the plot of the plot starts to really develop wonderfully. I'd say this is prime Dante but to be honest it all is!

5. Prog 1539 McMAHON DREDD YES!

6. In the same Prog we see Detonator X beat a blister beastie to death with the detached arms of another mechaniod in a scene that Grennie so loving paid tribute to in the recent episode of Survival Geeks. He's such a cutie that Grennie.

7. We also get a Sinister Dexter with Ramone finally back on his feet, Anthony Williams back at the drawing board and The War of the Moses about to kick off full time(ish) Its been a while getting here and the build ups been fantastic and I'm looking forward to reading this again.

8. Dredd moves to the centre of Prog 1540 - I think to give Jock on art a centre page spread he uses pretty effectively. This is the first time he's been in for a while, last time too as I recall. It reminds me how little he actually did in the Prog. But what an impact he made with so little!

9. Prog 1542 sees Wagner move Dredd post Origins into top gear with Colin McNeil as 'Mutants in Mega City One' starts a three story arc. This one dealing with how mutants and their parents are abused when in the City, when they get in as he has to turn away visiting family and loses a vote. Next we get 'The Facility' as Dredd takes Beeny under his wing setting up another protege and see for himself the full horrors of how Mutants sent from the city are treated. Finally the best of the bunch 'The secrets of Mutant Camp 5' takes these ideas and gives us an even closer view. Art, writing and they way the three stories weave together into one, while each being so independent is another Wagner masterclass.

10. Don't half keep these listed comments short and pithy don't I!

11. Why does Detonator X work? Its fantastically atypical Ian Edginton - well I have an idea of an Edginton story in my mind - Giant mechanoids fighting Godzill-o-types, scheming schemes, bad baddies, Steve Yeowell. I mean its all there? So why then when I read the final part in Prog 1543 did I not give a fig... don't know to be honest and the trouble is it didn't make me care enough to try to find out. Weird (but not in the good way).

12. The stories that drop in to take us to 1550 are pretty weak to be honest. 86ers joins us again but I can't bring myself to care one way or another.

13. Robo-Hunter comes back and I see where I got the impression (right or wrong) that Ian Gibson simply did not care about this strip anymore. Such lacklustre art. And to be honest its not saved when Anthony Williams takes over.

14. But in memory of Grant Goggins who used to play here I'll ponder when will Sam reach Paris, come on Tharg make it happen.

And while we might never get there I will get to Prog 1550 and beyond soon. Just a quick break to read some more Elephantment.

See you soon folks.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2020, 09:20:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1550(+)  Nerve shredding thrills every Wednesday

We're in good time. Prog 1550 gets a big sparkly celebration cover as has become tradional even for half centuries these days. Its no longer even the embarrassed helmet wave of a crickter hitting his 50 no now its full on air punching. Mind when you're launching a line-up like this maybe you do need to go a little ott. 2000ad isn't yet at the start of its NuGolden Age (as I mark it) but its hard to think why. Since I returned to the Prog its been on fire, even if I still don't think I fully appreciated it yet.

Here we get:

Good Dredd, so far largely by Grennie showing what a voice he has for Joe and that voice includes having a bite fighter exact bloody revenge in ill informed justice seekers in some glorious daft dark humour

Stone Island 2 - a thrill that I remember loving at the time and really works as an example of 2000d doing horror, but with a 2000ad smirk so well - we'll talk penis later I think/

ABC Warriors at its strongest and I do mean strongest (see previous comments). In dirty and gritty and hard.

Caballistics Incs reaching its finale (I believe) really strongly and really darkly as Glasgow burns and horrors build on horrors.

Button Man IV for some a horror for the change in artist but for me another fine example of the dark social commentry and grim glory. Its a great thrill beautifully in keeping with previous stories but the openning comment 'Based on the idea by Arthur Ranson (after a misplaced credit box) seems almost apologetic!

The line-up is superb and a great example of how 2000ad can be both unremittingly grim but darkly cheerful at the same time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 22 May, 2020, 11:21:13 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2020, 09:20:39 PM
We'll talk penis later I think/

Classic ColinYNWA.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 May, 2020, 07:43:08 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 22 May, 2020, 11:21:13 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2020, 09:20:39 PM
We'll talk penis later I think/

Classic ColinYNWA.

And now we get to penis I'm glad to say.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1559 - Planet-quaking thrill every Wednesday

Its been such a strong line-up in the autumn that we sadly see come to and end and all three stories that round up are worthy of at least passing mention. The first to fly Tharg's lovely nest actually takes to the sky in Prog 1558 and leaves me dazed and confused...

Caballistics Inc. - Ashes end in Prog 1558 and with it brings this fantastic horror tale to an... wait hold on... yes that's the ending I remember... in part ...but its not the end, what about Jenny? where's the zombie... even my creakie memory can't have drummed up all that... so there's more to come... but not much I think... let's see...

...that said this story puts the 'superhero' finale to this series. We've built and built, put pieces in place and like so many superhero epics all those pieces clash in an epic high cost, high drama final conflicit. Its feels so like the best of such tales, while at the same time having a darker  more horror bound edge that really are flaming, bonecrunching and neck slitting. Superb...

unlike my noggin...

ABC Warriors - Volgan Wars Book 2 - Is still highly entertaining and stunning on the eye. The thing I did note here is the short flashback format has however begun to feel a little ladden. Which is odd given these are short tales of the past, densely packed. The downside being that they drag out the underpinning plot of rescuing Zippo which is used as a framing device. Its a minor issue as the story's structure is laid bare and honestly present - unlikely wonderfully Blackblood's tale - at least in my mind, such is the strength of the character as a malevant force. Good stuff.

Stone Island - is a bit of an under-rated hit for me. Yes there is a penis in it, but its just there, in context, not coursing any harm, an innocent penis and yet it stirred such a fuss that its distracted from a well constructed, well bound and story. Like a trip to Durham the biggest problem its coursed is becoming the focus when it should just be honestly and maturely address and then tucked out the way.

Stone Island II builds on the first fun tale in that time honoured horror way. Expanding the perspective from a title chase and escspe shocker of the first, to a dramatic world bending climax up scaling yet losing none of the shock value. Its played honestly - no one is pretending that when bodies explode, or limbs are torn this is high art - its a thrilling, chilling ride and utterly entertaining. It also ends the overall story really well.

This story is just well constructed and entertaining - a real winner.

Oh and it has a penis in it as well - lets talk about that some more.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 May, 2020, 08:39:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Dropping a Bombshell Every Wednesday

When you have strips as strong as Caballistics Inc, (Good) ABC Warriors and Stone Island finishing you're going to be on the back foot as you run into the end of the year... right... right...???

Well no its absolute testament to the strenght in depth that Tharg has built up over the last few years that even as these exciting new players need a break almost Klopp like he is still able to turn to the likes of Milner and Henderson... I mean Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante. Oh and Red Seas. He even gets camero appearances of the Orgi* type as some decent one offs are given brief sub appearances. Not just Future Shocks and Terror Tales, but now bolstered by Bob Byrne's Twisted Tales. This is epic stuff and its all worth comment.

'The Red Seas - War Stories' is a short four parter set in 'the future' well in Red Seas terms and I've been quite dismissive of in the past (I think) but its absolutely superb, dropping some hints and mystery around what will happen to the various characters. While at the same time brilliantly creating epic scope to the tale we are normally focused on. After all its now absolutely clear that while we are seeing the struggle in the 18th Century this is a conflicit that will span through the ages. Fantastic stuff.

As is 'Sinister Dexter -Life is an Open Casket' - a mid length story that really kicks off the Moses War in all its glory and YES we do get a well placed summary so new comers are neatly informed of what they need to know. I know as was a relative newcomer. My recent (in my floppie view of the world) re-read of Sinister Dexter shows how many times I'll need to say this. Folks always bemoan The War of the Moses for being to drawn out and bafflin,g but when I read it I was contactly amazed by the creative ways Dabnett found to keep new readers and old up to speed. Seriously give it a re-read and see.

'Nikolai Dante - The Chaperone' is a fun four parter that gives us some wonderful filling out of Sergeant Elena Kurakin  - a much loved character sometimes not given the attention she deserves.

More significently I can understand why Self Absorbed time Colin didn't get the importance of the reveal of Arkady, but surely folks fully versed must have been open mouthed at the end of this one.

So yeah some wonderful stuff to wrap up the year, truly top thrillage BUT I say that before I've even mentioned two other classics. Both by the mighty John Wagner.

My understanding is that 'Button Man IV' isn't as well regarded as previous chapters? For the life of me I don't know why. Its brilliant. Sure I'd have loved Arthur Ranson on board but if you can't Frazer Irving is as good a replacement as you'll get in my mind. Totally different in style yet somehow tonally very similar.

More importantly the move of focus away from Harry Ex is a masterstroke. Expanding the world and keeping things fresh. Just brilliant. Its got all the tension and excitment of the originals for me and absolutely deserves to sit alongside them.

Finally 'Dredd - Mandroid Instrument of War' is a another masterclass. There is so much about this story with Wagner joined by Carl Critchlow that we could praise as Slaughterhouse is once again cruelly manipulated and pushed even beyond the events of the first Mandroid series but its the final part that is the absolute peak of brilliance.

The way Dredd uses the frail and damged frame of the wife of the man trapped in the almost indestructable super body to defeat this incredible foe, is a genius contrast. Its just sublime. Having shown Dredd to be an absolute master of finding a solution when no solution seems possible, Wagner drops one more masterstroke. He uses that very solution to have other Judges, exposed by Dredd as not in his league, to sight his weakness as they see it. Setting up in just a couple of panels. The man is a genius cranking machine. Just brilliant.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 05:44:42 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2007

Then I was thirty-five
It was a very good year


I've been waiting to use that one. See in 2007 I was indeed 35, married for the first and currently only time. No kids yet. Moved to a nice new house - would do that again alas (house even nice chill memories of what moving is like... Jez there's a Terror Tale and I was working on my nascent Nerdcave with the formal opening of the nerdattic. And beginning to take promenance in that lofty tower was a slowly growing 2000ad collection. I was chipping away at the gaps, and the new stuff was building... and me and 2000ad were getting it on again. I mean we were shaking the rafters together... But I'm getting ahead of myself. As of course I should be looking back before I... look back. Here's my prediction for 2007 last annual review...

QuoteNow YNWA is looking forward to see how 2007 takes our relationship forward. I think both Now YNWA and 'Self Absorbed' YNWA will be more impressed in 2007 and we'll be getting it on properly, but I think we're still on an upward trend and the absolute zenith of thrill power will be a year or two off.

And again the predictions are getting easier. This is pretty much exactly right. Tharg is starting to play a blinder. Self absorbed YNWA is starting to appreciate 2000ad for the delight it is and NowYNWA is not surprised its good comics. Tharg is starting to build up quite the catelogue of thrills. In this year we get:

Kingdom
Stickleback
Defoe
Greysuits

All starting - alongside others, but these four will add to the expanding roster for some time and to different degrees. The excellence Tharg is producing is probably best summarised last post when I discussed how when strips like ABC Warriors, Caballistics Inc and Stone Island drop off the roster he can draw on Sinister Dexter, Nikolai Dante and Red Seas to fill the gap. Notice none of the new arrivals are even mentioned there.

Simply put Tharg has an embarrassment of riches to play with in 2007 but most significently he's not resting on his green laurels he's building on these wonderful foundations quite relentlessly and it will serve him in good stead.

As Wagner continues to move away from Dredd Tharg is responding in two ways that 2007 shows very well. Firstly build new Dredd Droids so the dependence is quite there on the flagship strip. These droids aren't quite there, except arguably Grennie, but he's about to drift off, but Tharg's working on it. More significently he's makming sure the comic reliance on Dredd is continuing to deminish. Its never really been there but he's building so many fine strips he's really just underlining the point.

As it goes Dredd has a pretty good year in 2007. Origins is very good, its aftermath great and Mandroid exceptional and that accounts over 50% I'd estimate. Dredd is good in 2007. Dante is even better, but amazingly I still thing Self Absorbed YNWA is warming to things on that front and strips like Sinister Dexter, ABCs and Grey Suits remain his favs (none Dredd that is), with that new thing Kingdom wrestling for top spot.

Tharg's greatest achievement however is that good as 2007 is, particularly the second half, he's still building and will do so through out 2008, which I think will top this year? Are we 1999 or 2005 yet, maybe, maybe not, but we're getting better and 2008 will demonstrate that I predict. Though I still don't label 2008 as the holder of the nuGolden Age (TM) - that's still a tiny bit further off, but I'll happily have a fiver bet that 2008 will make it exceptional fun getting there!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 05:46:33 PM
Sorry meant to add quick end of year break as is traditional - this time to read something called... Giant Days... I hear some letterer or other raves about it... should do its set in Sheffield I believe. I'll tell you all about it somewhere less self absorbed I'm sure...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 June, 2020, 09:20:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

pROG 2008

Back on the wagon after some fun detours. But this comfortable and often exhilarating journey is still what I enjoy most, however good the diversions. And Prog 2008 the last of 2007 / first of this new year exemplified why that is. Its an absolutel stonker. A glorious Prog. I'll not go into too much detail as I'll be discussing most of the ongoing thrills later as we get into their stories more. But check this for a line-up.

Judge Dredd by Wagner and MacNeil - and in world changing form and Joe pulls his favourite trick of threatening to resign to Hershey in his pre- I no longer accept your authority - days when he did he just manipulated it. Here he does so to try to force the mutant issue back onto the agenda and the marginalised into the city. Nothing could go wrong there...

Shakara - with a history
Kingdom - with a journey of Gene's own
Dante - with Burns and predictiona
Stickleback - with a need to sow fear
Sinister Dexter - at the movies - great episode this one, showcasing Simon Davis' glorious ability at capture folks
Strontium Dog - Setting up a Glum story

But it Caballistics Inc I come to discuss as this is the ending I remember. Forgot this epilogue was here. Its not an ending. I'm happy to discuss endings anytime. Its the storytellers privilage to call time, to define what the story was they were telling and this when it is drawn to a close. This however is set up. Its presenting new threads and at the time its lack of return must have felt infuriating to those more invested. I was luckly I'd just read the last story, so while this set up interesting stuff more wasn't too high on my priority list.

Now fair to say Grennie has now made good on the the zombie soldier line and new series Diaboliks seems to be taking us towards where the other plot thread was going - or a different direction given the passage of time wiho knows. But this must have been very frustrating at the time.

Still an absolutely cracking Prog and what a way to set up a year - when you see a Cradlegrave advert - you can have much hope for ... mind I don't think we get Cradlegrave until next year ...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 June, 2020, 09:12:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Early 2008 - SHAKARA!

Well that's a great start to the year. Judge is on fine form as PJ returns and mutants are debated. Stickleback is tickling my fancy  in ways its not before. Kingdom proves its more than a one hit wonder and Strontium Dogs shows there's life in the... well old Dog yet.

But the first series to end and therefore I'd like to chat about is Shakara. This third volume (how can I check this stuff with Barney down?!?) really blows the world of Shakara open. Before it was a thrilling, engaging flash. A burst of energy and artist wonder. An explosion of design and execution. This tale of historys, Cinnabar Brenneka and fighting against your apparent destiny is fantastic.

Robbie Morrison works a wonderful trick by building the world around Shakara he alwos builds a character who simply shouts that word... and now occasionally more and starts to construct something just as thrilling but now a little bit more.

Amongst a very exciting start to the year this is one of the stars.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 June, 2020, 09:43:59 PM
I'll be your (really slow, terribly inefficient and only randomly accessible) Barney:

(https://i.imgur.com/kTtpps2.png)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 June, 2020, 09:16:31 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 June, 2020, 09:43:59 PM
I'll be your (really slow, terribly inefficient and only randomly accessible) Barney:

Yet just as magnificent in your own way - Thank you.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Three sides to every story

One of my main beefs with 'Origins' was that I felt the two strands of story, flashback to the beginning of the Judges combined Dredd and Rico's coming of age and chase to save Fargo from Booth felt crunched together. There was two tales to tell and so Wagner told them, but the join was oh so apparent.

Well its clear that 12 years ago John Wagner was listening to my self absorbed nonsense as the next launch (almost) story of 2008 'Emphatically Evil' sees in 7 parts Wagner demonstrate his mastery of the form, as he effortlessly weaves three strands to seamless perfection. Each strand, Beeny earning her strips as she investigates a child emulating PJ Maybe, the new vote on 'The Mutant Issue' forced by Dredd, and PJ's own reaction to the copycat as Major Ambrose is pulled into the investigation, stands wonderfully on its own.

The real magic comes from the way Wagner does this while having each pull and grow off the others. Each strand magnificent in its own right, yet elevated by being part of the greater whole. No seam visible here and a true masterclass.

While the drama and excitment hangs on the duel PJ lines, its Dredd's relationships with Beeny and Hershey, Judge's at two extremes of their careers, that really makes this story sing. In particular the way we see the most significent element of the story stripped of its overt drama as the Mutant storyline is largely played in exchanges between Dredd and Hershey. In doing so this massive shift, this event of such scale is pulled to earth, humanised, while the politics are exposed, but can be stripped to their bones and in doing so they don't drag down the momentum.

The final reveal, when Hershey passes the result to Dredd in Prog 1574 is just sublime. Moments, such momentus moments, expressed in just three unbelievably exquisite, underplayed panels that begger belief as they deliever so much and are also packed with as much character as most folks would get out of all 7 parts!

A Dredd that has never stood out as anything other than a typically great Wagner tale to me, has for some reason stood out as the very definition of what makes him so absolutely brilliant.

Colin MacNeil is also wonderful on art, aside from one panel I ways remember with Roake wrongly accused by the Judges chuffed in bed at the end of some crazy long legs, Its a very minor point!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 June, 2020, 08:21:20 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Those tricky second stories

I've never subscribed to the cliche of 'the tricky second album' there's as many great second albums as there are rubbish ones and a low lot of fine ones inbetween. When it comes to thrills however I do see a pattern. In an ongoing series, particularly in the typical modern format, by which I mean a story told in 'books' of 10 - 12 parts each building to a greater whole, that second one is crucial. You need to expand upon your typically tighter initial vision in the first story, open your world, as creators hope to tell a larger tale. At the same time you can't open things so much as to lose sight of that intial vision.

In early 2008 we get two fantastic examples of this done well.

Kingdom - The Promised Land is arguably the very definition of doing this. Gene is taken from his original premise and cast into the wider world. New lands, challenges and threats are introduced, possible new masters and mind controlling ticks. However while doing this it keeps two key things at its heart, the battle against Them. Who while not as front and centre in this one, lurk omniously in the background and strike just when the plot needs it. They essentially function just as zombies do in... well zombie moves.

Second is Gene himself such a great character. Seemingly simple, but by being so a wonderful vessel for exploration and adventure. A brute created to help embody the physical energy and violence at the heart of so much 2000ad. Yet with a naive charm that built him beyond that. Such a fantastic invention, such a great character.

The introduction of Leezee is fantastic as well. Having taken Gene's pack from him, Dabnett and Elson introduce a new purpose and motive for Gene. Someone new to defend, protect, but most importantly grow with.

Promised Land does everything you want from a great tricky second story. It expands the world, opens new horizons, but at the same time staying absolutely true to what made the first story so completely compelling.

Stickleback - England's Glory I've previously seen this as the counter to Promised Land. In the past I've struggled with the earlier Sticklebacks after the first story. I found that in shifting the focus onto our eponymous lead the scope felt tighten and whether you liked the story restricted to whether you liked the character - not as a person he's a glorious villain - but as a progatonist.

Having read it again I cry poppycock. Self-absorbed Colin was a fool and thank heavens NuColin has come along to force a reappraisal of this series. Its great. The focus on Stickleback and his gang himself is just that a shift, not a restriction. This crimelord mind in a world of magic and mystery opens so many doors. His gang is wonderful and richy realised and the adventures almost madcap in their crestivity and inspirations.

Art of D'Israeli is of course devine.

Really looking forward to reading the rest of this now. Also with an eye on the reveal in the last story we have to date. A reveal that is strongly hinted at here, if not the specifics then certainly the mystery to unfurl.

Of course for all the second albums when a series is good the 5889th album can be a trimuph too and it would be remiss of me to leave this frankly superb opening line-up with making reference to Strontium Dog - The Glum Affair. This might not take us to new places, this may not create new sonic landscape, but heck when the back catelogue is as good as this lets just enjoy rolling some more of that good stuff out.

And so our first lineup of 2008 comes to a close and there's some great Future Shock (or other one offs) I'm particularly fond of 'Adventures in the War Trade' by Alec Worley and Staz Johnson, to pad things out as we await the new thrills coming in. As hinted at before this speaks to what Tharg has created here, as those new thrills are at first 'Savage' coming back and 'Dead Eyes' which held such a great suprise. We truly are in the best of times!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 June, 2020, 09:04:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Those tricky second albums - The tricky second one

As if to prove the point we then get a second series that doesn't quite work. As if balance needed to be returned to some dark dimensional where grim whimsy ruled. I am of course talking about Ten Seconders - Make Believe.

Firstly lets get the art out the way - its all over the place. First we get some glorious watercolours (I think) by Dom Reardon. Absolutely stunning stuff. Then we get a few episodes by Shaun Thomas which lack any real storytelling chops and just doesn't quite feel ready, though potential is on display. Finally we get Ben Oliver looking glorious but not quite at the peak of his potential. Overall it looks a little too much like Tharg tried to fill his gaps with folks too similar and it makes it all look very messy frankly.

The biggest problem however is the normally superb Rob Williams story. Its plays the pastiche card a little too strong. Moving away from the superhero inspired Gods of the forst story (via a Green Lantern chap) to their natural successors Vertigo based Gods. Swamp Thing, Sandman are all unsubtly lampooned. Its all hardless fun, and amusing in places, but when the parody overtakes the story, as it does here it all comes across a little hamfisted forced.

Its  a shame as a tighter, neater execution and this could have been fantastic... and as I recall that's just what we'll get in the third book.

Elsewhere, as we'll discover next time, there are new tricks being replayed and old tricks still working well.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 June, 2020, 09:09:14 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Those tricky second line-ups

So the biggest problem the second line-up of 2008 has is the first was so strong its an incredibly hard act to follow. But follow it does and very, very well. Okay its not quite as strong, but then that would have been quite something, as the previous was The Guv'ner, but it is dead, dead good.

There's some good to middling Dredd, David Taylor's art on Grennie 5 parter Roadhouse is breathtaking and the aforementioned Ten Seconders. But aside from that its absolutely first class.

Savage has another blinder in 'The Guv'ner'. It does break new ground, Patrick Goddard joins on art and does an astonishing job and as this settles this series into its stride for me its marks it as Uncle Pats most consistently entertaining strip in the Prog in the the last, what 15 years or so. Its one of those thrills that its easy to take for granted. It never quite hits the heights of astonishing and it always seems to run alongside thrills that overshadow it, I mean it will be third man against Cradlegrave and Zombo next year as I recall! Here is no exception. But while it may never star I'm always more than happy to have it in the Prog and its always much more than just good. Its an exceptionally understated thrill.

So why is it playing third fiddle here? Well two dead good thrills rule the roost.

I said 10 years ago that Dead Eyes wasn't classic Smith - I was a fool. I also said this

QuoteA more grounded, earthy John Smith (hey these things are relative), dealing with some great characters.

So I understood then that it was perfect Smith. He just nails it. The brilliant relationship between Danny Redman and Geoff carries the first half of the story as the chilling tension builds. When the world explodes and Unthur arrives with his telepathic speak patterns and more 'typical' Smithsian chaos and magic it just feels so right and the impact of the world shattering events all the more important.

This is brilliant. Its also the middle of three thrills that have 'twists. I don't know if this is a deliberate thing but three on the bounce, this one following Malone and being followed almost immediately by The Vort could seem a bit much. The thing is they are all done so well and they all work in their own right. The reintroduction of Indigo Prime is simply fantastic.

As is Dead Signal. Ten years ago Colin said this

QuoteOver in 'Dead Signal' its as if Al Ewing has cast his eyes over what John Smith is up to (see, see I did it again!) and decided to throw us a story with many of John Smith's previous themes. Its got all the struggles with reality and identity that Smith crafts so well and is frankly a bit of a minor classic. Its a bit of a shame that it ends quite so abruptly, almost teasing that there's more to come, which never happened. The art by PJ is crisp, clear and energetic and really quite wonderful.

On this one ten years ago Colin was dead on target. This is a long lost classic and one we need to pull out to discuss more often. Al Ewing here firmly establishes himself as one of Tharg's most innovative writers in self absorbed times and one we sadly miss in now time.

So we get one more line up going into Prog 1600. Can it hold up to the standard of the first two?

Wagner Dredd
Nikolai Dante
Sinister Dexter
The Vort
and yeah Defoe (I'll try again, but ya know...)

You know what we might just manage it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 June, 2020, 09:22:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Third line-ups the charm

Dredd, Sinister Dexter, Dante and ... well we'll come back to The Vort in a sec. So it has Defoe in the line-up but its another top set of thrills that aside.

I'll breeze over Defoe, except why I struggle with it so much escapes me. It should work, it doesn't for me and I struggle to even read it, we'll leave it there.

Also of note is the Dredd, 'The Edgar Case'. John Wagner, this time with the clean and clinical Patrick Goddard, provides a very fitting end to Judge Edgar's tale, which of course has a sting in it... so I'm mixing my tails - get over it! Edgar baits Dredd one more time and in doing so exposes what he missed. Its another of Wagner's increasingly brilliant cop procedurals, wrapped into some more, something much deeper too as Wagner's evolution of Dredd's psyche continues. Just superb.

As is The Vort. Firstly lets get this out the way this is the third in the trilogy of twist character reveals (so stop reading now if you want to avoid spoilers a little later on) following on from Malone and Dead Eyes. I have no idea if these three stories coming in such a relatively short period of time was a plan or just coincidence. Its a weird one if so, but its entirely possible. All three work absolutely fine by themselves, but I'm glad this is the last of them during this time (I think) as it would be getting pretty tired if it'd happened again.

As with Malone all the clues are there, but deeply weaved in so as not to be glaring.

Most importantly the story works on its own terms. Interestingly Si Spurrier, here writing as G. Powell uses some of the ideas he'll return to in one of my favourite stories he's done 'Six Gun Gorilla'. War on a battle with no electronics. He mixes ideas of characters trying to find themselves in this terrible circumstance, mysterious heroic monsters. Its superbly done. Sharp, witty, abrasive and wonderfully realised by suitably ugly art of D'Israeli. The world is all swollen lumps. distorted pain, hard rain and flesh tones. Its brilliant.

The reveal that 'Crispy' is Lobster Random might not have quite the same impact as the other two - that might just be me - but its very well done and I of course look forward to getting to the (frustratingly) final Lobster Random story coming in 1600.

Yep we're rattling along to another century and these two are backed up by all the charm of brillant Dante and Sinister Dexter, which I'm not going to take for granted and I'll be Coming to 'America' (well Neil Diamond has just been on the non Glastonbury coverage) and War of the Moses, next time before we hit that mark.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 June, 2020, 09:24:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Greatest Hits

So we've had a lot of great thrills so far this year, many of them new, or reinventions of previous thrills. Still though the thing that really sings in the run up to 1600 is an old time classic. The triple play that has served the comic so well, for so long. I've already mentioned how great the Wagner Dredd is and its followed up by a fun four parter by Robbie Morrison and Richard Elson. In 'Blindside' Dredd is with a cadet when they get hits by an EMP that takes out his eyes, their weapons and brings out the bad guys. Its full on thrillpower.

The other two are of course Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante. As I've mentioned so many times before, but never tire of repeating, these three thrills have done so much for the comic and when they are all on fire, as they are here, the comic is a joy.

Sinister Dexter has run of 11 episodes all with art by Anothony Williams. There are three seperate stories, but in reality they run into one another to form a single, glorious run. The Mover moves things, Apellido makes moves, Dexter misfires, Kal Cutter misjudges and events build, before new players are introduced. Its all just fanastic.

The real star though is Dante - America. Simon Fraser provides art on this 11 parter, that in many ways builds on similar ideas to Tsar Wars. It brings to a head the time Dante served the Tsar as America and its heroes burn, first at the hands of the White Army, then under the Tsar's boot. Dante can take no more and after an tense thrill build up reveals his hand, all too close to Vladimir and the tale takes another shift. Its just sublime comics.

Its funny and speaks to when I read this the first time, but I always think that Dante's time as Sword of the Tsar as one that goes on far longer than it does. These stories where my introduction to the character. I knew there was more that had gone on before, but this was all I needed, this was my Dante and all of a sudden the world entirely shifted. So by this time I was as sold on this as folks who'd been in from the beginning, or joined during Tsar Wars. I seem to recall by the end of America I was a massive Dante fan. Each time I read it I know exactly why.

Its also clear that while 2000ad has been good for sometime, these first almost 100 issues I read after getting back onboard - between 1506 and 1599 must play a massive part in why I love the comic so much now. They are so good. The stories so strong, almost all of them. Its that old question, do I think this era is so good as its the one that hooked me back, or was I hooked as these were so good. Would I be as passionate about 2000ad now if I'd come back onboard say between 1400-1500. I mean those are still great comics, I'd have still stuck around to read these ones I'm sure, but would it of had such an impact. Would I have been quite the fan I am now, I loved the old stuff I had back in the day. I love the old stuff I've returned to or rebought... but this is my Tom Baker, this is my Roger Moore (look I'm a child of the 70s so sue me!). These are the Progs that re-reading them back feel like my Progs in the way that even those from Prog 431 on - my previous return to the comic - don't quite.

Funny thing is I know its about to get even better!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 July, 2020, 09:26:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prisoner of fortune

The line up post 1600 is one of the weakest for a good while, but its certainly a victim of the fortune of great thrills that have been in the Prog for so long. Its far from a bad line-up, but not up to the strengths of pervious ones.

Dredd is solid in the main, even Wagner's 'Mutieblock' isn't as strong as many of his stories of late. The story is great don't get me wrong and Kev Walker gives great art, its just the the physical realisation of some of the brilliant work that's been building of late. The muscular punch to so the challenge of introducing mutants to Mega City One - mind some of the 'profiles' of the mob attacking Norma Jean Block - rehousing mutants are brilliant... After that Robbie Morrison gives us some very medicore offering - which given the strength of his Dante at this time is a shame.

ABC Warriors is glorious as it been, again I adore Mills and Langley here in the way I dislike them in Slaine.

Red Seas is solid but the crew visiting Asgard in 'Old Gods' feels a little of a breather compared to this series to date.

Lobster Random post The Vort seems to try to wrap so much back into the story. Its engaging as ever... almost.

Stalag 666 seems to suffer from very still art by Jon Davis Hunt as he learns his craft. As it develops however I begin to realise its the story that is really stilted. Its riddled with genre cliche, in this case the war prison genre, but not with the same guile of the normal trope twisting thrills. Then there are moments of jaw dropping poor ploting - the prisoners eventual escape enabled by being left in a transport with no guards, easy access to the driver and a knife still hiden about them. Its pretty poor.

Not poor like the response from some to this strip, but it is poor all the same.

Unlike this line-up, its just the line-up feels poor in relation to what been in the Prog for a good few years new.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 July, 2020, 08:46:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Endings and beginnings

Beginning - to see a lot of Pat Mills' Dredds... they seem a litte off... but I don't know why...'Birthday Boy' about an immortal(ish) serial killer from ancient times seems to have lots of great elements, it should work, I just can't begin to fathom why it doesn't.

Ending - Blackbloods time with ABC Warriors as his final traitory is played out (does he leave them now, I thought it was a lot later than this) as Pat Mills shows there is no end to his duality as his ABC Warriors as great as his Dredd is mhh... oh but there is also no end to his bands of seven enemies assembles to defeat [insert 'heroes' of any given strip here].

Beginnings - Of Ampney Crucis. I didn't warm to this strip straight away and don't fully buy in here. Its got lots of great elements but I think how much you love it revolves around how much you engage with Crucis as a lead and I just don't entirely if I'm honest.

Ending - Of Stalag 666, it took 15 episodes ... and wasn't worth it. Ouch this series hasn't stood up well on re-read.

Beginnings - Of what I consider the final act of Dante. As the brilliant 'Prisoner of the Tsar' (with Burns on art) sees Dante bound and tortured as the Tsar unleashes hell on all the allies Dante has so carefully drawn around him during his time as the Sword. Has Dante's act of passion and violence brought all he worked for to an end before it began... well there's a long way to go so maybe not. This sets up the end, though there are still many twists and turns to come.

Ending - 2008 and its been a fine year. but more on that next time...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 July, 2020, 09:41:18 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2008

QuoteTharg's greatest achievement however is that good as 2007 is, particularly the second half, he's still building and will do so through out 2008, which I think will top this year? Are we 1999 or 2005 yet, maybe, maybe not, but we're getting better and 2008 will demonstrate that I predict. Though I still don't label 2008 as the holder of the nuGolden Age (TM) - that's still a tiny bit further off, but I'll happily have a fiver bet that 2008 will make it exceptional fun getting there!

Well its that isn't it really. This is another very good year. I seem to have commented less on 2008 than other years and its very possible that reflects the sort of thing thats been said before about a quiet Prog review thread, very often there just seems little to say when something is consistently good. Who wants to read another recap of chuffin' ace Nikolai Dante is, who needs to know that John Smith wrote a blinder. Who needs me reminding all the Sinister Dexter naysayers that they are as wrong as a bowl of Wrong Soup on Wrong Day Eve.

We start to take things for granted.

There are always mis-steps and these do help remind us that we shouldn't start taking things for granted. 2008 even has a line-up October / Novembery that is less than stella. It doesn't last long and its actually quite good, just not as the wonderful stuff that surrounds it.

There's no point recapping highlights (too many) and low lights (too few and could give an unbalanced view on how good all this is) they are mentioned below.

Life for Self-absorbed YNWA has started to settle into a routine. Its easy and pleasent for the most part. Have to work hard to maintain that and there are bits that drive me mad, but they pass soon enough. So it goes with Tharg as well. I think the biggest change is I'd found lot in 2008 and was starting to post here... so from here on in you will no doubt be able to find evidence of me contradicting myself right left and centre... oh that you Frankly had such an interest in the things I say!

That all sounds like we've hit routine and that there'll be even less to say in 2009 and indeed beyond. But hold your horses. As 2000ad in 2009 will enter a new phase. An even better phase. So does the life of Self absorbed YNWA. Its going to be a very exciting time indeed and one that we will christen a NuGolden Age (TM) or at least I will. Its going to be fascinating to see if 2009 is as good as it is in my minds eye!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 18 July, 2020, 11:47:18 AM
I never comment here, but I feel the need to say thankyou for ploughing through all of these and please rest assured they are all read. And they get nods, furious head-shaking, giggles and shaking fists as is appropriate.
Great stuff, they are very much appreciated. The only reason I dont comment is because in many cases I haven't read the strips in a while, and so my comments would be all predictably alike: "well, I remember that differently/ you've made me want to dig that out" etc.

Same goes for the other reread threads- I live in hope that one day someone will put together a series of print volumes, 'Reading 2000AD over six decades' or similar, and do a prog by prog accumulation of the opinions expressed here.

SBT
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 July, 2020, 12:18:53 PM
Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 18 July, 2020, 11:47:18 AM
.... And they get nods, furious head-shaking, giggles and shaking fists as is appropriate.

This is very much the reaction I'd hope to get. As I never tire of saying its the diversity of opinion that makes 2000ad fandom the most interesting out there.

Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 18 July, 2020, 11:47:18 AM
Same goes for the other reread threads- I live in hope that one day someone will put together a series of print volumes, 'Reading 2000AD over six decades' or similar, and do a prog by prog accumulation of the opinions expressed here.

Yeah I've day dreamed of doing this. One day... and the stage show...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2020, 05:37:17 PM
I'll second SBT's sentiments here. I appreciate that a lack of replies/heated debate can make it feel like you're launching your thoughts into an uncaring void, but I enjoy reading these posts even if I'm not responding to them.

Mainly, it's just for the header, mind.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 July, 2020, 08:06:00 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2020, 05:37:17 PM
I'll second SBT's sentiments here. I appreciate that a lack of replies/heated debate can make it feel like you're launching your thoughts into an uncaring void...

Hey that's why this was always called Self Absorbed this is all about me having somewhere to off load my thoughts, you lot are always secondary!

Seriously if anyone does bother to wade through my typos to read this I'm delighted - if not well the terrifying thing is it'll never stop anyway!

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2020, 05:37:17 PM
... but I enjoy reading these posts even if I'm not responding to them.

Mainly, it's just for the header, mind.

Well it is often the only thing that makes a lick of sense!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: jrdd on 20 July, 2020, 06:06:53 PM
Hi Colin, another non-commenting reader here suddenly overcome with guilt...!  Always an entertaining read and I do find myself agreeing with many of your views.

Was interested in your comment (a few posts back) on your view of the 1500s, and whether you appreciate this period because of the stories or because you re-started reading then.

My fondness is for the 1000-1100 period, yet I started reading with 736/7 (both were on the shelf!).  The 1000s feels like the start of 'my 2000AD', with the slim A4 relaunch and of course Nikolai Dante and Sinister Dexter really picking up my interest - I was beginning to feel a bit lost before then, the initial novelty of moving from Eagle / Revolver (what a combination!) wearing off.

So guess were I'm going with this is I reckon it's the stories that count, not when you get on board...  I also feel this way about some later periods (2012 (the year) comes to mind), so look forward to you carrying on!


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 20 July, 2020, 09:48:18 PM
Occasional commentator, fiercely loyal reader. Love thiscserirs,  especially the Crises of Infinite Colins, where Colins from different time periods sit in judgement on each other's judgements. Introspectastic.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 July, 2020, 12:48:20 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 July, 2020, 09:48:18 PM
Introspectastic.

I like to think more self-absorbed!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 29 July, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 18 July, 2020, 08:06:00 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2020, 05:37:17 PM
I'll second SBT's sentiments here. I appreciate that a lack of replies/heated debate can make it feel like you're launching your thoughts into an uncaring void...

Hey that's why this was always called Self Absorbed this is all about me having somewhere to off load my thoughts, you lot are always secondary!


Luckily as my own prog slog thread consists of links to the actual blog I get to see the stats page, and I know that people are reading it (plus where they're landing from and what country they're visiting from).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: PsychoGoatee on 01 August, 2020, 01:10:07 AM
Good stuff! Every time I read "Wagner Dredd", my blood pressure goes down and my vitamin levels go way up. It's better than antioxidants even.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 August, 2020, 09:26:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Settling this expectations down - Early 2009

For whatever reasons, and I'll share them as we go on, I have 2009 as the start of the new Golden Age. Its all pretty arbitary and silly to try to pin down when the comic got quite so good, when its been quite so good for vast swathes of the last ten years. Yet there you are expectations are set and I'm bound to them. The only thing that will shake it is of course the reality of a re-read.

Well early 2009 does just that. Prog 2009 is the very definition of what the bumper Prog has become. A very good bunch of nice little one offs from ongoing popular series, wrapping around the new line-up. Its a bumper sized treat but a functional bumper sized treat rather than a special bumper sized treat.

So its all about that first line up 2009 then and it ain't bad, ain't bad at all.

We get a good Wagner Dredd in 'The Ecstacy'. With Paul Marshal on art this is an enjoyable romp as two punks luck out by coming out of witnessing a 'drugs' deal gone wrong with a green slug super-drug. Their luck has two sides as the reason that drug deal goes wrong is the big unkillable watching death dealer after the green slug delighter. Dredd is of course on the trail.

This is good solid Dredd, but its always remained a minor mystery to my why this one is 10 (or more) parts when so much of Wagner's craft is keeping things tight and so many of his Dredd's are so much shorter than you remember. This one I'm just not sure why its so long. It never drags. Its entertaining and exciting, but its just not special as so many others of his stories are.

The rest of the line up breaking us into 2009 is Greysuits, Marauder, The Red Seas and Stronium Dog - Blood Moon. Not bad, not nad at all.

The first of these to wrap up, all be it if not with a cliffhangers but with tied by your legs as giant lobsters come to chomp you hanger. Jack Dancer gets washed into the Tempest and talking sausage suppers aside - even The Mighty Yeowell can't make talking tea look good - its typically high seas hijinxs from this most pure of thrills. Its a shame it goes into hiatus.

Greysuits wraps up next - this one gets a lot of flack. As Blake goes out on a revenge mission to deal with his creators and masters he fights a Ginja Ninja... yeah that reads terribly put the name aside and this is super spy thriller at its finest. I enjoy Greysuits for all the cliched Millians preaching that I dislike and find tired elsewhere. Here it feels in place, in context and robust expansion of the story. Not forced and laboured. It too ends on... if not a cliff hanger then a shot while you find your mum sleeping with the enemy hanger.

Marauder is solid... but I'll come back to that and Strontium Dog Blood Moon is good, if not breath-taking yet, but again I'll come to that.

So yes the first line up is good, not great and these days with all the weight I have placed on this year that's almost disappointing. Except its helpful as it reminds me that I need to be realistic about what the year will bring and how it won't be a tidal wave of golden... but it also reminds me that when a line-up this good can feel a little disappointing that standards have been set so high pulling these starts of Golden eras out of thin air is a pointless reflection and exercise...

... won't stop me of course!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 04 August, 2020, 07:52:13 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 August, 2020, 09:26:26 PM

For whatever reasons, and I'll share them as we go on, I have 2009 as the start of the new Golden Age. Its all pretty arbitrary and silly to try to pin down when the comic got quite so good, ...

Fair point but there was a point around about here when Tooth was "really, really good .."  I think you can tell a lot about a year from the Bumper prog as it really sets the scene nicely for what is coming up.  Ironically enough, there is a response to a letter around Prog 2000 that suggests that these annual progs might not get much traction but 20 years on we'll let that one slide.

I'm currently about a year behind at the start of 2008.  It's interesting to compare the two years.  We have Stickleback, Kingdom, Strontium Dog and Shakara.  Artwork from Ezquerra, Flint, D'Israeli and Elson.  It's a hell of a start to the year.

Then we have Dredd with "Emphatically Evil".  Wagner and Macneil on fine form.  What I do find interesting though is looking back at this story from where we are today.  Comments have been made elsewhere about the lack of overt racism but when you read the subtext after a decade of immigration debates it is a none-too-subtle dig.

It's fair to say that from 2000 on the prog was definitely on something of an upward trajectory.  Like you, I've been trying to pin down a point at which it ratcheted it up a notch.  I would agree though that 2008/2009 make for strong contenders for that accolade.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 August, 2020, 08:00:58 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 04 August, 2020, 07:52:13 AM
It's fair to say that from 2000 on the prog was definitely on something of an upward trajectory.  Like you, I've been trying to pin down a point at which it ratcheted it up a notch.  I would agree though that 2008/2009 make for strong contenders for that accolade.

There's a specific Prog that I always reference as the actual start of the NuGolden age (well in my mind) and that's a fun thing to have in mind, but it will be interesting to see how that fits into the wider context of the Progs around it and whether it does start something special, or if its just a nice little Prog / run which is a conveniant marker to represent something more nuanced.

I think 2007 and 8 have put the building blocks in place with new stories that you've mentioned. Now all Tharg has to do it land it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 August, 2020, 09:24:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Marauding Cockroaches

We have a new YNWA tonight, we have Not Quite self-absorbed YNWA. Not like other YNWA's he's time bound in 2010... I'm not quite sure I remember why Not Quite self-absorbed YNWA was re-reading Marauder already, just 1 year or so after it first appeared. I think I was catching up with things I'd read when first getting back into the Prog to get past the ITS ALL NEW AND EXCITINGness of it all. Anyway I'm not sure we can trust Not Quite self-absorbed YNWA we'll see if we need to visit him again, but since I can find no thoughts from actual Self Absorbed YNWA he'll have to do... and to be fair he's pretty spot on about Maruader. Though he does forget to mention is its by Robbie Morrison and Rich Elson.

QuoteMarauder is the tale of an ex-cadet trying to adjust to life in Mega City One outside the Academy in a dangerous and violent city he's been trained to control. Its a tale of a troubled teenager in Mega City One. If you had all those emotions and and hormones running around in a city like that quite how much trouble would you get yourself into, a little more than just getting barked at by the College librarian that's for sure. Its kinda Spiderman set in Dredd's world. Ok so Danny our hero isn't exactly filled with self doubt and teen angst but then being raised where he has that isn't going to be the problem. The city breeds an entirely different kind of 'hero' the complexities and layers of Lee and Ditko's favourite son transcribed to a 2000ad mentality and...

Arh damnit who am I kidding its just a wonderfully drawn action packed thriller and bloody great fun for that. Its been said my numerous people, myself amongst them, that there is a place for a simple high octane romp in 2000ad and in many ways 'Marauder' fits right into that camp. It might not have changed my life, or given me great insight but I sped through it with thrilling easy and enjoyed ever moment of it. Its not a classic but I'm glad this sort of story is still there. Just a shame this one didn't get the sequel it so called out for.

Clobberin' time (I know I know)

See he talks sense... this time... What he doesn't reflect on is the fact that while a 12 part superhero Year One is a fine thing to have it is rather exposed when as it reaches its 60th (well I've not counted) page over at Dredd Al Ewing packs more impact and emotion punch into 6 pages in 'Cockroaches' and there's a lot of punching in Maruader and quite a bit of EMOTION (caps and italics = shouting) but with the aid of Ben Oliver Al Ewing weaves a super strong story. Just wonderful as a Citi-Def veteran is rewarded for his Spectacular service and tries to tell Dredd of the Amazing cost to his humanity. Dredd is of course not the man to off load to, he's not open to the man and so Martin Bruznik goes back to dealing with the Astonishing way he deals with his guilt. Its not pretty.

Now I'm not saying this to belittle Marauder, I am saying it to laud 'Cockroaches' but more to flag once again the incredible diversity of story in 2000ad. Here the intent is utterly different and each seems to met its aims perfectly well. One has more fantastic ambition, but they sit happily side by side in utter contrast.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2020, 09:23:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Blood Moon and early twists and fuzzies

Strontium Dog Blood Moon was almost a great example of a discussion I had elsewhere (in the best thrills tourney results thread) I love good Strontium Dog, but I find some of it just pretty good and any particular story can out stay its welcome.

So it is with this one. Its starts wonderfully with some insights into early Alpha and the positioning in war of villains fighting on the side of angels. Then it turns into a standard crime caper. I good standard crime caper don't get me wrong. Then it has an episode as wonderful as Johnny at his best as Alpha takes the eponymous villain to the scene of his past crimes (against Johnny at least) and its blood curdling stuff. Johnny Alpha at his most chilling, even more so possibly than 'Because I hate you."

The final episode fantastically sums up the self sacrifice and lonely heroism that makes Alpha standout as a true Western hero, even when he has a partner. Its half brilliant, half good fun...

...so given my eulogising such a mix in the Prog as a whole - just last post - surely this makes it the perfect thrill? Well for many it would seem, but the mix in one thrill just dilutes the brilliance it would seem to me. Strontium Dog is a fantastic thrill, but can be a bit mixed. Blood Moon is a brilliant thrill, but is in fact a bit mixed.

Elsewhere in the Prog I'm starting to get the signs that maybe my plunking this era as the start of the new golden age is justified. As the first roster rolls out new thrills drop in. Low Life - Creation. More Wagner Dredd setting up one of my favourite Mega Epics and Necrophim. I thrill whose dark grey tones give folks very mixed opinions as I recall. And even as I riled at how early the twists in this twisty of thrill came about - after just 2 episodes, before we'd even really settled into what was what and who was who the tone was being set and things were sliding, I can't help but like this one. For... reasons I'm not quite sure about.

Oh and finally we get the return of Dante as the series enters an era that astonishingly will show us that Tsar Wars was just warming things up and its best was still to come.

So yeah even before we get to the specific moment I'm waiting for I'm already getting warm fuzzies for 2009.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2020, 08:34:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Low Life - Creation

Before I get two distracted by what comes next I just want to mention Low Life - Creation. It drops in for a delightful 8 weeks and is a fizzing joy. Its a sterotypical tale of town planning, reglious miracles, redemption, imagination, snow, nano-robots, fighting your demons, milk and I believe Rob Williams first horse metaphor (well the first I remember), as Dirty Frank investigates the newest drug Creation to infest Low Life.

Its just superb. So many ideas packed in, but it never feels weighted down by them. It briskly flies by, leaving you aghast from moment to moment with the brilliance of the imagination on display and the way D'Israeli brings it to life. For me this is the tale well Dirty Frank becomes so much more than a cool coemdy character. To be fair that's almost explicity the point and we get the glorious counter-point Judge Cameron whose role is to take us to that realisation, but its all done so bloody well.

While this story simply shines we also got a more controversial start as Necrophim starts to twist its way into the Prog. I really like this story. I know it has its detractors by its by far Tony Lee's best work in the Prog and once Lee Carter adjusts the contrast on his grey art so that things ping out more (mind as Lucifer has passion with a pig maybe a should be glad these early episodes are a bit washed out in grey) its visually very appealing. I'll talk more about the twists and turns here later I suspect but just wanted to flag the very mice start it makes in the Prog.

These two however are really the orderve. I smashing wonderful orderve, but starters just the same as both NuYNWA and self absorbed YNWA (I think) both agree we hit the main course, the Michelle Gold Starred meal of a lifetime.  We hit Progs 1632 and specifically 1633 which I'm be talking about in far me detail soon, as things get golden...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: WhizzBang on 09 August, 2020, 03:22:52 PM
+1 like for Necrophim. I read it when it was done as a Meg floppy and really enjoyed it. Great characters and a good twisty turny plot from them since they all have to betray each other all the time due to thier nature.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2020, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: WhizzBang on 09 August, 2020, 03:22:52 PM
+1 like for Necrophim. I read it when it was done as a Meg floppy and really enjoyed it. Great characters and a good twisty turny plot from them since they all have to betray each other all the time due to thier nature.

Yeah the fact that they are demons make all the twisty turning plot and counter plot really work in world. Looking forward to getting into it again not read it for ages.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 August, 2020, 09:28:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Cradlegrave and Zombo in these Golden Years - Prog 1633

Whop whop whop.

So here we have the Prog I always mark as the start of the modern Golden Age. As I've stated so many times here the Prog has been so good for so long, but here I use this Prog as a convient marker as to the start of a period where things find a way to get even better?

Why this one - well this is a pure gold five for five Prog for a start.

Dredd - Backlash part 6 by Wagner
Savage - at its peak
Dante - Army of thieves and whores - part 5

So such a solid spine, what mark this out however is we have these glorious strips but two new stories that both perfectly encapsulate the diversity and creativity of the Prog. Zombo Part 2 (which nicely features the leds first appearance) and Cradlegrave Part 1. Two utterly different strips, rounding off a comic of perfect balance.

I'll extol these strips later (though possibly I'll just copy and paste an article I wrote about the two years ago - cos ya know lazy) but its more what they represent I want to flag. Its also not just this issue and the things in here, but again what they so perfectly evidence.

See that Wagner Dredd is the start of possibly Wagner's greatest time (we can discuss this another day) but the period of 'Tour of Duty' which is very much in the final stages of set up here and 'Day of Chaos' sees two superb Mega Epics both very close together. Its prime stuff.

Then Dante which is just entering if final act and, as again I've said before its a series that just gets better as it goes on and this final art is some of the greatest comics ever written.

Then we have the Journey Man Savage. Strip its easy to over look and take for granted but for me Mills' best of this period. Its such a wonderfully classic 2000ad strip and shows when Uncle Pat finds an appropriate vehicle for his dogma it works so much the better. The Conservative Bill Savage is the perfect vehicle to add a fresh take to the Millsian view of the world and it never, ever forgets its a hard bitten, fun action comic at the same time. So much tidier in its ploting than many of this period from the old master.

Then Zombo and Cradlegrave. Two absolutely first class strips starting back to back and emphasizing, as have other new strips of the last two and three years, that while in the past a solid foundation of say Dredd, Dante and Sinister Dexter would have allowed for hit and miss experimentation here we have hit, after hit, after hit already lined up to roll back in, but Tharg is still harvesting new ideas. Ideas that are as diverse as the other worldly, high concept Zombo and the grimmy, gritty, creepy, earthed and unearthly Cradlegrave.

Damn this is a good period and this Prog is the very definition of why. So let's watch over the next 3 or 4 years if this is a flash in the pan. Or, as I suspect, the first nugget found in the pan what starts the gold rush. Ouch I dragged that one out!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2020, 09:12:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Tainted Gold

Well I knew I'd be too lazy to write more about Zombo and Cradlegrave. They are both simply superb and at the end of this post I'm going to rehash (and edit slightly for context) the thought of another new YNWA, this one  2011 YNWA, seems a sensible chap, I trust him more than 2010 YNWA... damn I'm going through some sort of cross dimensional YNWA Crisis... anyway I'll introduce you to him in a bit.

See for now NuYNWA would like to reflect on the Golden Age (Whop whop whop) already its looking a little tarnished... well clearly that's silly as its just begun. So what was I expecting uninterrupted wonders for so long. Never going to happen and relatively quickly after Prog 1633 some problems start to creep in. Wagner moves on from Dredd, Ewing and Rennie step in and  are very good, just not Wagner good. Dante steps aside for Slaine and its not a great swop.

I'll spare you another Mills good, Mills bad post but this Slaine - Gong Beater is no Savage.

When Zombo finished we get Defoe back and you know I don't get on with Defoe...but Sinister Dexter and Red Seas are just around the corner and Wagner is revving for New Management. So nothing everything is for everyone. We must remember that, a Golden age is not about one Prog its about the long haul, so don't worry Tharg

I'll stick with you, baby, for a thousand Progs

Anyway some edited Zombo + Cradlegrave thoughts from this rougish and exciting 2011 YNWA

Quote...Zombo is so wonderfully comic and enjoys [e]very minute of its story, yet managers to be chilling at the same time. Cradlegrave is altogether darker and more menacing, a truly well crafted horror story, that chills right to the bone. While it leaves little room for humour it retains a wonderful satire in it's reflections of the all too real world in which its set. Zombo's satire is on the whole more tongue in cheek and in your face, but still just as effective. Both however are riddled with horror and satire.

The biggest piece of common ground though is that they both have characters normally used as 'da baddies' and turns them on their head. Characters you dive into and get absorbed by. Both stories portray 'monsters' in such a way as to make them engaging, likable, while still a little scary. I say 'monsters' as while Zombo is a glorious classic monster its Cradlegrave's chiv that the UK media would have us believe are the plague that's taking over society. John Smith deserves great credit for giving such a frightening, vivid, representation of 'scallys' and 'no marks' as real people trapped into a world that drives them 'astray'. Not all of them are likable, but Shane the led is and the rest are placed so wonderfully in a real world you can at least (hopefully) understand why they have become as they are?

More common ground is the art. While very different styles in both stories it's superb and so utterly appropriate to the story it depicts. On Cradlegrave Edward Bagwell's art is just brilliant, expressive and mundane, graphic and chilling in equal measure. The strips are a joy on the eyes... well the art at least.

....

Like the best horror Cradlegrave finds fear in the seemingly mundane. Like the best horror it leaves some of its most terrifying moments to the imagination of the reader. Who after reading the story can ever look at a tube of Superglue without getting a chill down their spine? Like the best horror (see what I'm trying to subliminally get across here?) for all the beasties and ghoulies it finds its real terrors in real people, people however different from us a great writer can make us sympathise with or at least understand.

This story is up there with Smith's finest works and really deserves a second go if you didn't enjoy it first time round. Heck even if John Smith's other work isn't your cup of tea this is one of the finest works of horror I can remember.

If you're a fan of 2000ad (and if not well heck you should bloody well get that sorted as soon as possible) the fact it could support two seemingly contrasting strips so comfortably together is one of its greatest strengths. What holds the comic together is the fact that even with such contrasts there is a consistency in the stories it presents. Damn it forget the stretched attempt to thread a review together with a theme, read um both they're both bloody brilliant.

As Maccie and Wonder said 'Ebony and Ivory sit together in perfect harmony'!

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 August, 2020, 05:27:38 AM
Almost everyone on this forum rave about these two stories Zombo and Cradlegrave but I just can not get into them. My problem with Zombo is that I find the premise (and the character) of Zombo ridiculous and over the top and normally I eat this type of stories up before lunch. With all of John Smith's creations I either loved it (Devlin and Indigo) or I just find it uninteresting (Revere). Cradlegrave falls in the later category. The other problem is that I do not always like Horror stories especially urban horror.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2020, 06:19:28 AM
I find Zombo a bit Marmite - there's no question that it's well written, and it has genuine tea-splattering jokes. I think it's better in small doses, is all. Which is probably a weird thing to say about something that's so deliberately OTT.

Cradlegrave's a weird one, as well. I rate it very highly as effective horror - to the extent that I don't want to re-read it because it's truly unsettling. In that regard, I think it deserves the plaudits, but I'd never say it's comfortable entertainment.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 August, 2020, 06:46:34 AM
Zombo is me almost like Ulysses Sweet a psychotic anti-hero treated like a "hero". Almost indestructible characters which has no moral compass.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2020, 06:53:53 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 14 August, 2020, 06:46:34 AM
Zombo is me almost like Ulysses Sweet a psychotic anti-hero treated like a "hero". Almost indestructible characters which has no moral compass.

The reason Zombo works for me is he feels such much better 'constructed'. I completely see what you mean with the comparison but that repressed agression makes so much sense with Zombo... okay, okay sense seems a silly thing to say in the context of a hyperpolite zombie - but within story. His gruesome fixed grin perfectly displaying utter frustration in his forced restraint.

The contrast works so well as well. He's beautfully contrasted and therefore the unrestrained world in which he operates makes so much sense, as Funt Solo says in that its all so deliberately OTT.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2020, 06:19:28 AM
Cradlegrave's a weird one, as well. I rate it very highly as effective horror - to the extent that I don't want to re-read it because it's truly unsettling. In that regard, I think it deserves the plaudits, but I'd never say it's comfortable entertainment.

Yeah I've read it a few times now and this is so true. Its brutal reality doesn't make it an easy read at all. Its not so much entertaining as compelling for me.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 August, 2020, 07:22:26 AM
One thing about Zombo that I do get and appropriate more is the satire whereas with mister Sweet it is just to lopsided  towards the psychosis of the character.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2020, 03:52:25 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 14 August, 2020, 06:46:34 AM
Zombo is me almost like Ulysses Sweet a psychotic anti-hero treated like a "hero". Almost indestructible characters which has no moral compass.

I can handle Zombo being a non-hero because (like I said, in smaller doses) I can get into the comedy - which is really what the strip's for. With Ulysses, I can see it's trying to do the same thing, but I think it veers too much into Big Dave territory by (at least on some level) coming across as an excuse to be horribly sexist.

As for "indestructible characters which [have] no moral compass", don't get me started on Sinister Dexter!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 August, 2020, 04:17:54 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2020, 03:52:25 PM
As for "indestructible characters which [have] no moral compass", don't get me started on Sinister Dexter!

I can at least consume bits and pieces of Sin/Dex  but I do not think I will ever be a true fan of the strip.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2020, 03:52:25 PM
As for "indestructible characters which [have] no moral compass", don't get me started on Sinister Dexter!

I wrote about that quite a bit for some blog or other a few years ago now. I got it covered

"Don't look too closely its ALL fine..."
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 August, 2020, 08:39:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Holiday Gold

While I was away I got to my lastest jumping off point - normally a jumping on point (and read the things I was reading inbetween to). The run up to Prog 1650 has a lot to offer, so some quick thoughts to catch up.

1. One of the great things about this period I'm calling the NuGolden Age is it has some pretty iconic moments. Moment #1 The hammersteins storming the beach in Savage. Both the fantastic cover of Prog 1641 by Patrick Goddard and the strip itself. Savage is at a real peak, showing that a cross over can be so much more than a gimick. But can all the power and excitment just the same.

2. As we approach 1650 there's a high strip rotation. Sinister Dexter pops back in with a couple of stories with Anthony Williams joining Dan Abnett. This period gets a hard time by many but is one of my favourites and I wish it hadn't be brushed aside in the recent Podcast with the artist. Heyho can't have it all.

3. In 'Wish you were here' we get another great recap of events to keeps folks in tune. A cool gimick as John Croak crosses dimensions and sees all sorts of interesting shadows as he does so. Finally Finny and Ramone have a chance encounter in 'Aisles of Plenty' with unfortunate consequences.

4. Prog 1644 is great for so many reasons. We get the ultra creepy Bonehinge introduced in Sinister Dexter

5. The even more creepy ending to Cradlegrave. Its both horrific and in its final moments full of hope.

6. Red Seas also rolls in with another great filler story featuring Newton leaving the Library and finding a Pegsus.

7. Prog 1645 sees Chris Weston exorcise his book club demons with a terrific Terror Tale. There a nice mix of one off in this period, with Bob Byrne's bolstering the roster

8. There's also a run of Dredd's that make a folly of those that say if its not Wagner it doesn't count. Ian Edginton and Dave Taylor introduce Judge Lamia and Al Ewing introduces a redemptive parallel Dredd. Its wonderful stuff.

9. Prog 1649 sees Tracy Weld make a desperate move and Wagner return to Dredd to send Joe into exile. Its a stunning Prog to lead into a new line-up on.

10. The fact that we have such a strong line-up in a period of rotation and clearing the decks shows what a fantastic place the Prog is in. Maybe I view this period has it hits a high just when we've back in our stride together... but it might just be because the Prog is in such a wonderful place in 2009?


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 August, 2020, 09:04:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1650 +2

Well if what we had before was good and a strong arguement for the start of the NuGolden Age (TM) then its Prog 1650 and the subsequent line-up that nails it.

Prog 1650 starts 'Tour of Duty' - one of my all time favourite Dredd epics. Then DOUBLE Shakara in 'The Destroyer' and DOUBLE Kingdom as 'Call of the Wild' starts. I mean this is pure 2000ad isn't it. If only three thrills, which normally annoys me - here the issue is so kinetic, behind a fantastic Chris Weston cover that I got over it this time.

Things get better though. In Prog 1651 'Tour of Duty' sets out its stall about how great its going to be in a scene without Dredd as Dan Franciso shows why he was so well regarded and in a surprise to all stands up the Martin Sinfield, to show commitment to Justice. At the same time showing the brutal norm for how Judges cover the costs. Its a page and half of talking heads (well Colin MacNeill does that so well it doesn't feel like it) but it shows Wagner's genius. Covering so much, moving plot, revealing character so effortlessly yet so well its hard to fathom how. Next issue we get giant spider attacks. Christ this story has it all!

Prog 1651 also adds Dante with a story centred on Lulu and Strontium Dog with a tale coming out of Blood Moon but very much its own things.

Now this is gold for sure.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 27 August, 2020, 07:28:49 AM
I don't dispute that 1650 is peak nuGold era, it's just for me the gold begins one mega-epic earlier, with the start of Origins.

And while I'm disagreeing (in a kind of agreeing with you way), did you not get a bit annoyed in Sinister Dexter that Dexter just gets healed kind of quickly and easily? I agree Williams is doing stellar work, especially with the bonecruncher design - but why does Ramone need his spine/legs back? Rocky Rhodes did perfecetly well on a set of robot legs, and I reckon Abnett could've had a lot of fun with a hitman in a wheelchair controlled by one of those mouth-tube contraptions...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 August, 2020, 08:53:45 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 27 August, 2020, 07:28:49 AM
I don't dispute that 1650 is peak nuGold era, it's just for me the gold begins one mega-epic earlier, with the start of Origins.

Yeah I agree the nuance of exactly when nuGolden Age (TM) starts is a pretty individual decision. I figure some folks would push it back even further than that and I make an arguement - with myself - that 2005 is so good it should start there...

Quote from: AlexF on 27 August, 2020, 07:28:49 AM
And while I'm disagreeing (in a kind of agreeing with you way), did you not get a bit annoyed in Sinister Dexter that Dexter just gets healed kind of quickly and easily? I agree Williams is doing stellar work, especially with the bonecruncher design - but why does Ramone need his spine/legs back? Rocky Rhodes did perfecetly well on a set of robot legs, and I reckon Abnett could've had a lot of fun with a hitman in a wheelchair controlled by one of those mouth-tube contraptions...

I defo see you point, though I'd have actually liked more around the sinister creepy Bonehenge and whether he could be trusted and when the work was done was there something else going on, had something else been 'added'.

That said I think what was most interesting was the idea of a hit man who couldn't shoot straight - and the gunning of Kal was a nice conclusion to that. What I also liked was the character stuff about Ramone not being able to face up to it and not telling Finny. I'd have liked that to have been worked a little harder maybe. After all these depend on yeah other utterly. We see time and again their lowest moments are when the are split up. So the fact Ramone didn't turn to Finny earlier was interesting to me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 27 August, 2020, 07:11:32 PM
Yes, this was a great time reading the prog.

I am not a big fan of Anthony Williams art but his work on Sin/Dex was for me his best work yet. Did he actually do anything for the prog after his stint was over on Sin/Dex?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 28 August, 2020, 09:57:45 AM
I don't think he did. He worked on Cursed Earth Karnage in the Megazine that was perhaps a little later, and was, sad to say, one of the worst strips to run in the Megazine. Not really Williams's fault - and I'm surprised he hasn;t shown up in a Regened Prog as his cartoonish style seems to me to have yoof appeal.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2020, 10:28:04 AM
His recent 'appearance' on the Thrillcast was one of the few I've caught up with (got behind and slowly, very slowly trying to catch up - there's so many podcasts these days!) as I was intrigued on why he'd disappeared from, not just the Prog, but from what I can see comics in general, as he's a great artist. Seems he's just moved to different commercial work. He certianly doesn't seem to have closed any doors so fingers crossed. As you say his style would be perfect for Regened issues, if he was interested and had the time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 28 August, 2020, 07:42:34 PM
It looks like his last work was done in the Megazine #333, in a JD story written by Alan Grant "Night Mayor on L.M. Street"
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dandontdare on 28 August, 2020, 09:10:15 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 28 August, 2020, 07:42:34 PM
It looks like his last work was done in the Megazine #333, in a JD story written by Alan Grant "Night Mayor on L.M. Street"
I don't remember offhand what that was about, but gotta say it's a fine example of 20000ad story titles
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 August, 2020, 09:18:20 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Ending

So one of the great lines ups comes to an end. Dante rattled through quickly but its slot was taken over by Necrophim a thrill I find utterly readable. Its no classic but its plots, twists and turns make it a page turner utterly in keeping with its Hellish setting.

Around it it Strontium Dog, Shakara and Kingdom all finish superb stories very well. Johnny Alpha's ending is the only one what doesn't feel significent. Its a great end to a story but does pull to more to come.

Kingdom - Call of the Wild ends with Leeze being carried into space and Gene running, for now, on his own again. Its an ending that adds weight to the series. We're only three stories in to this strips life and already events like this feel signifcent and of real importance.

Shakara - The Destoyer though has an even more shocking end as Shakara floats into space, red eyes fading out after a seeingly final confrontation with Cinnibar Brenneka... but even this dark ending seems to suggest more to come BUT damn for a series that all about over the top space fistie chuffs it has massive impact.

By Prog 1661 Sinister Dexter has already popped up to help wrap up the year, it will be joined next Prog by Slaine and lets face it while I might not be liking Slaine of this era (or for quite some time) you can tell we're in good pastures, golden meadows when its being dropped in as end of year filler! And all of this is being built around Tour of Duty a Dredd epic built in wonderful smaller blocks and building up magnificently as we watch Sinfield slowly reveal what a magnificent villain for Dredd he is. An officious administrator our lawman can't touch, we also get fantastic Cursed Earth westerns to provide our action staples. Its a tight and dangerous balancing act that of course Wagner and a host of artists gets perfectly right.

All this is just fantastic. We'll see how the year tops out and then out NuGolden Age (TM) will get possibly its stiffiest test. We'll come out of one magnificent line-up but as we enter the new year will we sustain?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 August, 2020, 09:19:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Unreliable narrators

The year wraps up with a solid little line up. Tour of Duty continues in its set-up/high action phase. Necrophim continues with its twisty plotting phase (does it have any other). Slaine pops in to get some amber and Sinister Dexter shot up the joint as the Moses War kicks off in earnst and Alternative Demi drops in to shake things up - this is fantastic stuff in Downlode.

This line-up is filled out with some Future Shocks / Terror Tales of decent standard. There's one however 'Death of a Despot' by Matthew Badham (is this his only appearance in the Prog I think) and John Cooper. Its a simple tale of unreliable narratives wonderful realised as words and pictures give us two perpsectives on the events unfolding. The pictures never lie. I really enjoyed it and it seemed really fitting for the waffling I'm doing here.

Already folks have suggested alternative times to call the dawn of the NuGolden Age (tm) and I'm sure there are many ideas out there. Heck even I can think of some alternatives. There are almost certainly many that will define no such NuGolden Age (tm) which could possibly compare to there rose tinted Golden Age - many of them we can find on Faciebooks I'm sure.

The thing is reading these issues I'm becoming increasingly convinced I'm right in my call. The trouble is I wonder if my truth is defining what I'm seeing and a clean reading is impossible for me. This period settled in when I was fully settled in as a newly returned reader. Is it really as good as 2005? or 1999? Can anything compare to ... well you select your original Rose Tinted Golden Age (tm). Or is it just that it landed right with me? The trouble is I suspect I'll present my narrative to present the evidence I want to. That justify past YNWAs view that this era is the best and I'm not convince now YNWA will be able to shake that.

So I'll give you the narrative you have to find the pictures to give you your truth yourself.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2020, 09:25:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2009

I've said so much about what 2009 stands for, what it represents there seems little point doing my end of year review. This is the start of the NuGoldenAge (TM) and its been a fantastically good year. Its all documented here, its all good.

Dear read I've not given you the full picture up to now though. There's probably other reasons this is a new golden age. See Self-absorbed YNWA started popping out children at this time... well Mrs YNWA did the popping out I guess, all I did was... well you folks don't need to hear about that. So in 2009 life was changing, in big ways and its possible that a YNWA whose world was being turned upside down, and however great kids can be, when they are not being almighty pains in the arse - the one thing they do to us all (and I try to avoid generalities 'cos we all experience things differently, BUT surely this one is universal) - those of us blessed / cursed with 'um, is they turn our world upside down.

I mean nowt is the same. And maybe a blurry eyes, mind fogged YNWA both pre and post arrival of child #1, known in these parts as The Girl Child, was seeking comfort. Maybe 2000ad was an anchor to the past. The thing that retained. The thing that reminded ol' Self Absorbed that there was still a bit of him, not father, husband, dad, nappy changer, a bit of him hanging in there? As the parasitic wonders that crawl into our worlds, and feed on our bank balance and shit and puke out our time, we withdraw from ourselves and not much survives. I don't listen to anywhere near as much music as I used to, let alone see it. The YNWA in my name became a tribute to a past life. Prose books are now holiday treats and cinema visits involve singing animals more often than not now.

I kept one bit of myself.

I retained one thing. Its as if as the lights of my life, stripped away the Self Absorbed YNWA and he was only able to hold on to what's at this very core. He only retained the one thing that its turns out defines him best. There was no time, money, or ability to be self absorbed left. Aside from...

...and I think you got this from here haven't you...

All that was left of Self Absorbed was COMICS.

Silly, magnificent, wonderful comics. I stupid industry awash with so many wrongs, but redemned by so much good. Held together by unsurpassed story and a unique way of telling them.

That's what survived fatherhood. That's the last bit of self absorbed I got left (well I have a Switch now which I pretend is for the kids). So is it any wonder 2009 is a pivital year in my self absorbed mind, for my favourite comic? Its should be no surprise as it became clear what was the last thing I'd hang onto that this year would mean so much to me.

Or is that just me being self absorbed?

Is this year so important actually 'cos its so good. 2000ad in 2009 is full of magnificent comic. Simply magnificent comics.

Is it as good as 1986? Is it as good as 1999? Is it as good as 2005? Who knows. I'm certainly not to be trusted to make a clear and honest assessment of that. All I can say is its a very fine year and a very important year. In so many ways 2009 was the start of a golden age in my life. And maybe that's not just 'cos that's the colour of some of the curious poo I had to deal with!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 September, 2020, 10:18:29 PM
Oh and 1000 approaches ...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2020, 02:54:46 PM
https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 2010

Not much to say about Prog 2010 the big annual bumper Prog that starts the new years. Its a now typical doozy of one offs and introductions to the thrills that will lead off the new year. Essentially a big posh lovely jumping on Prog. And this one is no different and lovely for it.

What is of note is the thing that really underlines quite why we are in a nuGolden Age. Lets look at the Thrills in the issue and how old they are.

Judge Dredd (1977) - 33 years
Future Shocks (1977) - 33 years (but each one new, so...)
Stickleback (2007) - 3 years
Nikolai Dante (1997) - 13 years
Zombo (2009) - <1 year
Ampney Crucis Investigates (2008) - just over 1 year
Low Life (2004) - 6 years

So for a comic that's been successful for almost 33 years, at this point, the very cover of this issue highlights characters from it rich and illustrous past. Yet over half the content of its big jumping on issue is 6 years old or newer at the time of publication.

In some parts of this here internet, there seems to be folks that get hung up on 2000ad being better back in the day, or the Prog losing form. And for those folks that's fine, thats a personal view based on their own experience and tastes and utterly cool. What is important however is the Prog itself doesn't get distracted by that. As his Prog so ably demonstrates while 2000ad should always celebrate its past - it must always look to the future and find the new thrills, the next thing.

So while I look back at a Golden Age started only 10 or so years ago, you can be bet your ass that Tharg is celebrating The Out, the latest hit to join the ranks, and looking for the one to come after that, and after that. 2000ad should celebrate the past, but by heck its greatest strength has always been shaping the future.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 05 September, 2020, 02:55:30 PM
Imagine the image tags if you will!

Oh and 1000 is still coming....
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 September, 2020, 09:10:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Re-Edginton

I don't know that title got lost between reevaluation and reeducation and just adding 're' in front of Edginton just doesn't work does it! Anyway let's just out it behind shall we.

Self Absorbed YNWA didn't get on with chucks of Ian Edginton's work, certainly not all the time. I've already mentioned (I believe I'm not actually going to re-read though my piffle to check) that Stickleback is setting much better these days. Self absorbed YNWA really struggled with this series after the first story until the last book which he enjoyed immensely. Now who knows if it was enjoying that last book which made something click or just a shift in the YNWA noggin that made it click, either way I've been enjoying these (well I always loved the art of D'Israeli) early works so much more this time.

Its a fun crime romp. Some what helped by knowing the reveil and looking for the clues that point to that. But I don't think knowing he's Holmes is that bigger change. I'm not a big enough fan of the detective to care specifically really, fun though it is. No I just thing its a case of as you move through life your taste shift and twist a little. If something is tettering on the Edge (Jez there's the title "Tettering on the Edginton" wish there was some way to change that so you'd never know the one I first used...) of being something you are into it doesn't take much for a re-read to open that difference to you, unconsious thought the change and its reasons might be.

Of course that won't always be the case. With Ampney Crucis I as yet can't make that shift. Again we can set aside the art, this time Simon Davis providing the visual treats. Here though I think I can identify why it doesn't work for me. I find the juxtapostion between the Wodehousian tomfoolery and the Lovercraftian horror really jarring. Now I except that this is the point (or could well be I have a long and lavish career of missing the point but hey ho). Identifying the contrast between the utter class farce and light hearted japery with the brutal horrors in the world they ruled and the people the lorded over.

Its a fine idea and exposed well.

Just doesn't sit well with me when I read it. And I can appreciate the aim as much as I want if the two elements rub against each other they will pull the reader out and that spoilers the tension and the humour of both sides. Now that reader is of course me. Other readers it will work fine for. There's probably a future YNWA for whom this will click (I think it might by the last story I'm interested to see what happens there) and it will all work lovely like.

Just not Self Absorbed or Nu YNWA.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2020, 06:47:11 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Ampney Crucis drops out and is replaced by a series of decent Future Shock (types) before Zombo takes the slot properly

A wonderful Nikolai Dante run - giving us the first of some false endings and this one happy - ends and we The Grievous Journey of Ichabod Azrael (and the dead left in his wake)*

Stickleback ends in the same Prog and Damnation Station starts.

When ABC Warriors ends we get more brilliant Dante back.

And this dear reader is why you can define this period as a new Golden Age. Great stories roll out just to have great stories bursting to get out the blocks. Tharg though isn't resting on his laurels as many of those stories are new and adding to the already brimming barrel of blazing brilliance.

Even Dredd 'Tour of Duty' gets in on the act. One of the great things about this Mega Epic is the way its constituent smaller stories provide wonderfully define different phases in the story and here we shift from the Dredd in exile phase into the PJ Maybe truly glorious character phase as his confliict with now Chief Judge Sinfeld comes to the fore. Its simple magnificent stuff. Dredd's frustration and impedence is not ignored completely, its just established and so not as embellished as much so the story can shift gears. Just masterful.

*Yes that will be the last time that gets right in full NuYNWA is a lazy begger
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 11 September, 2020, 07:59:58 AM
Damnation Station was one of those thrills which I struggled to get into. I never got the plot.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 September, 2020, 08:08:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Self Absorbed Post 1000!!!!

What a mighty celebration. What a wonderous time. There's parties in the street... probably... I imagine there's a Knighthood in the post (don't worry being a republican I'll knock it back anyway don't worry). As soon as I hear from the I'll pick my offical biographer from what I imagine is the hundred's queuing up ... I'd think....

Anyway 1000th post ... Its got to be about... eeerrrr.... about... errrmmm... well I surpose I should thank all those who've contributed and played a small part in my magnificent (if self absorbed) achievement ... and we'll talk about...

errr... no, no it not just a number so... errrr... Yeah, yeah I got it I have something worthy of such a wonderous occasion I'll discuss...

...oh no that'll be rubbish.... errrrm...

Quote from: broodblik on 11 September, 2020, 07:59:58 AM
Damnation Station was one of those thrills which I struggled to get into. I never got the plot.

Yeah I agree I always struggled with it and so was looking forward to reading it again. As it starts I'm stil finding it a really difficult concept to buy into...

... Yeah, yes sir magnificent. A worthy and insight, cutting analysis as ever Mr YNWA if I do say so myself... and being self absorbed I of course do....
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 September, 2020, 06:55:52 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

After the Lord Majors Show

Its been a fantastic run the strips that have swopped in have been fantastic, even if not all for me. I'll talk about Iccybod and his incredibly long title soon. Specifically in the context of the recent Dredd story. 'Zombo's Eleven' is a wonderful romp, hilarious, slyly horrific and wonderfully exposing the obsurdity of the modern world.

I don't get on 'Damnation Station' the interesting squad of character as commandos just doesn't make sense to me and undermines the entire strip's foundation. Any other ideas it may play with are therefore weakened.

I want to focus on two stories though. Two stories of absolute brilliance. Firstly Nikolai Dante - Hero of the Revolution. Its the one were villainous plots are revealed and Dmitri strike back at the Empire. Its so brilliantly paced. The story starting serenely as the recent victory is celebrate. Joyous occasions seen and then. BANG darkness strikes and Arklady is revealed, Dmitri hits out with perfect timing and the world is turned on its head. Even as the villain gets his revenge and his victims fall,  Morrison and Fraser take the time to underline the importance of impact of each blow as we are taken back to key moments in characters lives to show us why we should care and the bodies fly.

Its masterful. Then the final blow as Dante of course survives, but as Dmitri himself says suffers a fate worse then death. Stripping Chest from Nikolai is an absolute masterstroke. Always the cost to Dante has been to those around him, but here he directly feels the impact of the wars and conflicits he gets thrown into. Dante is diminished and struck down while still being able to carry on with the tale as he of course needs to. Prog 1685 the eulogy to Chest, recently reprinted in the Summer Special is so powerful.

Just fantastic.

So we have that masterpiece in one corner, but this is a special time as across in Dredd another masterpiece is also showing its true genius. The great thing about Tour of Duty is it strides across tones and story types, while always keeping a thread and plot that pulls the whole thing together.We've had the action packed episodic Cursed Earth adventures and then in 'The Talented Mayor Ambrose' we get a glorious portrait in contrasted villainly. The manical PJ Maybe and the mundane and defensive Sinfield - so gloriously indestructable. The impedence of the ever dutiful Dredd exposed. Then half way through we are of course reminded that while Dredd was impedent, he is determined and absolutely resolute and any mistake exposed, his powerlessness drops away in an instant and his ability rises to the fore and the story turns to a fantatic procedural as Dredd relentless closes in on both villains.

Just superb and on reread I'm reminded why this is the best craft Dredd epic ever and after my nostaglia fueled love of Cursed Earth my absolute favourite. Its quite wonderfully brings all the variety and scope of what a Dredd story can be into one gripping tale.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 07:46:29 AM
At this stage for me Dante has established itself as one of the best strips ever to appear in the prog. I will always be a great fan of this strip and this is one that I will every few years revisit.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 September, 2020, 09:26:24 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 07:46:29 AM
At this stage for me Dante has established itself as one of the best strips ever to appear in the prog. I will always be a great fan of this strip and this is one that I will every few years revisit.

Yeah by this stage, even coming to the strip late I was utterly, utterly sold. I think by now Self Absorbed YNWA had gone back and read the series from the start and it stood up. Without doubt though its a series that just got better and better as it went on.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

All in the Name (and Journeys and things left in their wake)

I don't want to dewell on this too much but it feels impossible to read The Grievous Journey of Ichabod Azrael (and the dead left in his wake) and not reflect on 'End of Days'. Now clearly self absorbed YNWA had no idea what was to come and he LOVED this story for its own sake. But NuYNWA is able to compare and its a stark contrast.

Fitting Ichabod into End of Days makes perfect sense. Especially now we know its ending and how, as in this story he's been used as a vessel. His murderous ways of value to this who deal in death. The trouble is this plot parallel ends the value in throwing him in... well since he's Rob Williams (and Dom Reardon's vessel who am I to say the value).

However the glory in the orginal story is it luxuriates in its telling. Its basks in grim atmosphere and tone and telling. The dialogue, the narrative boxes all ooze purpuse and class. They simply drip with the art of setting a story in time, place and themes. Its just brilliant.

Just look at the title along and the tone and feel that alone brings with it.

The recent reintroduction in Dredd feels trite and sensational in comparison. End of Days, by design from what I've read, is bombastic, rushed and sharp. It lacks the very things that make this first story work so well and in doing so, in throwing Ichabod into a scenario like that, even if it makes perfect sense with the plot and story, feels entirely unfitting... but its the co-creators choice and so while I will stand by my right to have this view I of course stand by Rob Williams vision for his creation.

It will be interest for future YNWA and future Rob Williams to look back at both and see if either of us, or both of us re-evaluate our views of this.

What I can say for sure both Self Absorb YNWA and NuYNWA have the same view of this first series. Its simply brilliant and that ending just superb.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 September, 2020, 09:28:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 1693

The great thrills roll on. As one steps out, another takes its place.

Savage - Crims
Red Seas - Hell and High Water
Strontium Dog - LIfe and Death of Johnny Alpha

We will have views and opinions on these and their quality, but overall these are damned good thrills and its wonderfully relentless.

In Prog 1693 this gets a perfect demonstration. As 'Tour of Duty' comes to an end one of my favourite Sinister Dexter stories 'The Why-Shaped Cut' drops in. Now I'm not suggesting that the latter is in anyway as significent as the former, or as near perfect. Or has a fraction of the popularity. Its is however a fine example of one great thing rolling into the next. Each different, each of varied importance, but each of unique value to different readers. We are fans of a comic as wonderfully diverse as 2000ad and we will of course argue bitterly about what's great, what's superb, but at this time its hard to imagine folks not being bowled away my this tide of top notch comics material.

'Tour of Duty' has been quite brilliant and as it heads towards its climax Wagner has one more masterstroke. I've talked about the impedence of Dredd in the early parts of this story and Wagner at the end reminds us that while he might appear powerless time and again, he is indomitable and prepared to do anything to do what he thinks he has to. In 'Tour of Duty' its just that he didn't know the weapons he had to use, he didn't recognise them as they are alien to him. We're seen him pull his hands of crosses he is nailed to, crawl across barren land, shoot himself in the heart (almost) do whatever it took. He just never realised what it might take is becoming Chief Judge. But when that was his only weapon he would not back away. He would take the chance. As with that bullet though it stopped just short.

The very end wraps up quickly. Wagner doesn't waste any time and effort when its done. Just like 'Cursed Earth', just like 'Necropolis', just like 'Day of Chaos' will do, when the tales told he will wrap it up with brutal efficency. At times his leaves me feeling like its rushed, like its snatched at and I have this feeling and the end of 'Tour of Duty'. Its just that Wagner knows best and knows when the tale is told and doesn't waste ours or his time. 'Tour of Duty' is the best Judge Dredd epic (I'll return to that statement when I read 'Day of Chaos'). Its might not be my favourite, I have such nostaglic love for 'Cursed Earth', its so formative to what I love about fiction. But 'Tour of Duty' is the most complete of these long form Dredd stories, the most comprehensive and the most masterful.

Its just that I really like 'The Why-Shaped cut' also.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 September, 2020, 08:57:23 PM
https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Bring out your dead

Red Seas - Hell and High Water just superb and continues this series high octane highjinks. It does inspire too much discussion as its straight forward adventure comics at their best.

Savage - Crims just superb and continues this series high octane high stajes. It does inspire too much discussion as its straight forward action comics at their best.

Strontium Dog - Life and death of Johnny Alpha is fascinating and while I'm not 100% sold on it does really deserve a bit of thought. Its a shame I'm not inspire more by the fun stuff sometimes and it can make strips like Savage and Red Seas feel a little journeymen like. Its not that, its just they are pretty straightforward. And that's the last thing 'Life n Death' is. If anything its a little awkward, a bit unwieldly.

It uses the idea of unreliable narratives that has been used before in the series relaunch. Here though it weaves the idea wonderfully into the story. As Feral's tale of Johnny's demise is called into question, exposed and then corrected. The trouble is in unravelling the story it can be a little dense in its telling, a little 'and the this and then that'. Its as if John Wager and Carlos are forcing their way through a necessary evil to get to the destination they need to. In this case its certainly not the journey that's important.

The other thing I find awkward is the way Feral is treated. I mean its fine not to like the character, its of course fine for them to use him as they will. It just comes across a little vindicitive at times. LIke the creative duo are pissed and the very idea and rather than shrug and work past it they have to destory Alan Grant and Simon Harrison's creation, to, I guess, do to him what they think Feral did to the strip back in the day.

For all that its still a good series and one that does its best to wrestle past the roadblock they see in the series. The series is at its best when its dealing with Middenface's drinking and fall from... well grace might be over stating it. His relationship with Precious is also wonderfully played out. So while I do think it has problem these masters of their aert show that even with barriers they can make great comics. And what a way to end the story!

And so we clear the decks and we get another line-up. Can it maintain the excellence so far? We'll see.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Bolt-01 on 26 September, 2020, 03:38:55 PM
With regard to the 'LADOJA', I feel that the final fate of Feral is very much at Middenface's feet. I haven't read the book for a while but I'm fairly sure that even Middenface himself acknowledges that if the boot was on the other foot, Johnny would have found a way to save him.

This is, to me, an indicator of why John & Carlos are telling the tale -- Johnny is the hero, he needs to be around.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 26 September, 2020, 04:31:34 PM
I did not like the way Johnny was brought back. It never worked for me. I would personally preferred the SD stories where told when both he and Wulf was still around. Johnny should not have been resurrected.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 26 September, 2020, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 26 September, 2020, 03:38:55 PM
With regard to the 'LADOJA', I feel that the final fate of Feral is very much at Middenface's feet. I haven't read the book for a while but I'm fairly sure that even Middenface himself acknowledges that if the boot was on the other foot, Johnny would have found a way to save him.

This is, to me, an indicator of why John & Carlos are telling the tale -- Johnny is the hero, he needs to be around.

This is such an important point: Life & Death is a story and a world without a real hero, that's why it's so important to Precious and Middenface to find Johnny, even though their stumbling journey itself is far from heroic.

In the end, it means Johnny is there to confront the sterilisation plot (for all the good it does).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 September, 2020, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 26 September, 2020, 03:38:55 PM
With regard to the 'LADOJA', I feel that the final fate of Feral is very much at Middenface's feet. I haven't read the book for a while but I'm fairly sure that even Middenface himself acknowledges that if the boot was on the other foot, Johnny would have found a way to save him.

This is, to me, an indicator of why John & Carlos are telling the tale -- Johnny is the hero, he needs to be around.

Yeah this is certainly true and Middenface does indeed make it clear that the way he scarifices Feral is something he wishes he had the ability to avoid. Its why Middenface's fall is so marked and works so well. It also suggests why they are so hard on Feral. Since he was the new, 'edgy' hero supposed to replace Johnny his fall, I suppose, is seen as the one that needs to be hardest? Maybe, but is the same idea not better served by leaving Feral relatively unmolested and still fail, thus evelating Johnny not above marked failures but above folks with something about them? He still galvanises them to better things, but its not so absolute, its more real?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 October, 2020, 08:02:07 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Howling amongst the gold?

Even golden ages aren't perfect. The sign of a good ol golden age, or indeed a good nuGolden Age (TM) is that when you hit a rough spot it ain't that rough it picks up soon enough. So for me the post 1700 is a bit of a bump.

We get a Wagner Dredd I'm not bowled over by in 'The Skinning Room'. I just find it a little pedestrian, by Wagner's high standards and a couple of the other Dredds that follow it aren't that great. And Defoe rambles on. Every time I see this thrill I try to get into it. It should work but its appeal just bounces off me. I know some folks love it, for me it has nothing to offer and I struggle to get through it.

There is some great stuff. Dante continues to be excellent and is really helped by being almost ever present at this time being the overarching tale real sense of momentum and urgency as we dash towards an ending. And Low Life continues to be superb  with Hostile Takeover a tale that really brings to a head what has gone before and sets up whats to come after quite brilliantly and at a high cost to our cast. At this point its apparent that Frank is the unshakable start of the series and this one reads as if Rob Williams and D'Israeli want to rid them of the ties that bind and shake the past to open the future?

But what I really want to talk about is Age of the Wolf. Its so close to be excellent but doesn't quite live up to the potential it has. In Prog 1708 as the series reaches its conclusion there a 'Behind the Thrills' (short lived series of one page text pieces covering the ideas behind certain new thrills) were Alec Worley and Jon Davis Hunt open up about the ideas that led to the series. To be honest the ideas they want to explore are great. London crashing as werewolves take over as an antidote to zombie apoclypses. Breaking the shackles of prophecies. Sacrifical maidens doing ti for themselves. All rich grounds.

Its just doesn't quite make it in this first series. It gets close but reading the ideas behind the thrill I feel fustrated that the story itself felt a little strained and constrained. Maybe it need a couple more episodes to allow the werewolf invasion to truly grip. Maybe the mysterious magical ways needed space to brew and bubble, rather than be carried by dense exposition? For me it just doesn't quite come together. Which is a shame as the final part is fantastic and carries the theme of ripping out from destiny really well.

I have to be honest the art doesn't quite work for me either. Jon Davis Hunt does one of my all time favourite cover with Prog 1700 - a glorious Tharg based piece. In the strip itself though I find it a bit fussy and fiddley and the character don't quite punch enough. Mind he's gone onto great things so hats off to him.

Yeah if this is the weak spot in this period we're doing alright and while I might not have enjoyed this as much as I wanted I'm interested enough to look forward to the next two parts (I think it is).

So yeah the post 1700 line-up isn't the best but lets see how we bounce back from an admittedly not very low dip.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 October, 2020, 09:28:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Small but perfectly formed

I've said before (or at least have intended to, who knows if I actually got to it?) that you can tell the quality of an era of 2000ad by how well it is able to fill those awkward bits in the run in to relaunch or end of year Prog. And after the slight bump we have just had we also get an oversized run into Prog 2011. Six issues, too much for filler, to slight for a real run of 'typical' series these days.

Its testament to Tharg's arsenal therefore that these last 6 issues of the year are such a triumph. There's a lot of short stories and since I've not done one of these for a while I think its time for some quick thoughts.

1. Dredd over these issues has some blinding tales setting off, in Prog 1709 with 'The Beast of the Bay' by Spurrioso and Patrick Goddard. A tale seeming told of a mutant whale fish beastie, but really a satire of this countries views on immigration. Its superb but for some reason (well a shoddy memory) I really didn't remember if at all.

2. Defoe ends in this Prog so we are left with a line up of Sinister Dexter (and we know how positive I am about this phase of that series), Slaine and we know how negative I am about this phase of that series and Dandridge which I'm not a massive fan of (well we'll see about that) and as Low Life finishs its excellent run discussed below we get a series of done in ones. So it feels like its going to be a mixed page, in a similar vien to what's gone just before... but...

3. Slaine -The Exorcist is one of my favourite Slaines for a long time. A four parter, which I'm not sure why, but it really works for me. Its plays the old idea of a dansel in distress a little easily but as a local witch is 'exorcised' by Ukko she releases Cyth to Slaine's axe before hitting even more trouble in the form of Guledig. Clint Langley's art really works with here, where I've not enjoyed it on this series at all to this point (as oft discussed). The green hues of Ukko's parlour really creating a perfect atmosphere. The simple story doesn't vex or stretch, its simplicity is a virtue. In so many ways this feels more like a story from older times in Slaine an for that I really enjoyed it. Nice surprise.

4. This aren't too short are they!

5. Sinister Dexter - Are you being severed continues the War of the Moses in absolute glorious fashion as Charion loses it, the boys plans begin to faulter and The Movers enters politics. Superb stuff.

6. The first of the Future Shocks My Heaven in Prog 1710 features fantastic art of Inaki Miranda and Alec Worley's story of sibling rivalry is a blinder.

7. Speaking of Alec Worley I really enjoy the opening of Dandridge as clothes are tailored, puns are planned and Dandridge must escape his fate as a trapped ghost. Warren Pleece is always a delight, but I don't remember liking this particularly...

8. Prog 1712 see another superb Dredd as Brendan McCarthy joins Al Ewing for the classic easy charms of Doctor What.

9. And another great Future Shock, this time dealing with crankt competitive cooks in Universal Masterchef by T.C. Eglington and The Mighty Yeowell.

10. Hmmm... Dandridges easy charms continue as he escape his trap with his fantastic servant Shelley (guess who) and runs to get dressed. This is much better than I remember...

11. Prog 1713 and another great Futu... well this one is a Terror Tale by Arthur Wyatt and Graeme Neil Reid in Menhir as a boy makes a sacrifice to escape from a pit, only for it to come back to haunt him in later years. Genuinely chilling.

12. Arh that's why Dandridge goes wrong the Packman pun, while working as of course he's chasing ghosts just stretches things a little too much.... but you know...

13. Another fine Dredd in The Convert as Spurrioso and Mike Collins take a barbed but effective stab at Grud and his followers, as the Future Shock - Boxes by T.C Eglington and Robin Smith is pretty good.

14. Actually by the end I've decided even if Packman rather stretches my patience I really rather enjoyed Dandridge certainly more than I remember and while Alec Worley might have Dandridge rather hammer home his point its a fair point and this is delieverd all with wonderful art and fun, brisk enthuiasm its hard not to be sweep along.

So while the end of year is an extended run of filler, when the filler has this many highlights in just 6 Progs there's much to celebrate.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 October, 2020, 08:20:37 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2010

I didn't make a prediction... so wrapped up in celebrating the start of the NuGolden Age (TM) and the changes in Self Obsessed YNWA's life...I forgot to look ahead and predict what was to come in the year ahead...

...which I guess is kinda fitting 'cos there isn't much to say anymore. Each year for a while now has been building on what's gone before and adding more to the roster of thrills in rotation and its a pattern that will continue. So while Self Absorbed YNWA was stumbling through early fatherhood and having a rough time at work as the College he worked at went through a major restructure and he had to let people go for the first time ever (significently worse for those folks of course, but this is self absorbed after all) the Prog is a shining example of how somethings in the world are right and provide stability.

As I've said Tharg doesn't rest on this laurels, you get the sense that everyone involved is caught up in the moment and there's a sense of the creative juices just oozing out everywhere.

There's even a case for saying 2010 is better than 2009, after all we get 'Tour of Duty' one of, if not my, favourite, Mega Epic ever. You get Dante almost every present and building towards its stunning conclusion, Sinister Dexter in a phase I (if not many others) absolutely love. New thrills come in, its all brilliant. So much so that its become clear, as I said last year, that there's little point anymore trying to work out which is the greatest year, it all just blurs now into one big mass of wonderful.

And that is all the evidence you need that we are in the NuGoldenAge (TM) as before when there's been a standout year its been clear and distinct. Not to say there isn't good stuff around them, just they've stood out as highlights. Here that's not longer the case. Its all just magnificent.

And so we go into 2011 and I strongly suspect its going to be much the same, just as this year and the year prior, building on what's gone before and creating new thrills to add to the pot.

Bring it on, the less I have to say the better!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 October, 2020, 09:52:35 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Starts with elevens

You know you've had a good time when you start with elevens. Its means you've had so much morning sleepy that you've missed brekkie and need food enough to survive to not be able to wait until lunch.

Why am I telling you this. Well cos I could think of naff all to call this post so just went with that and then forced myself to justify it...

...I'm wasting your time UNLIKE the start of 2011. 2011 wastes no ones time cutting to the good stuff. After a couple of Mike Carroll short Dredd which show exactly why John W trusts him with the comics lead we get a really tense thrilling Al Ewing story of Devil's Island escapee and criminal desire for revenge.

Alongside that we get

'Kingdom - His Master Voice' in which we get added origin to our high octance classic 2000ad violence and thrills

'Ampney Crucis - The list of Ten' in which we get added Christine transforming into our Lovecraftian Edwardian thrills.

'Necrophim - Civil Warlord' in which we get less twists but more brilliant endings to our hellbound and heaven sent thrills

'Shakara - Avenger' in which we get added turbo thrusting World Engine in our hyper-realised space slaughter.

All the strips looking STUNNING in utter different way. Each provides thrills in utterly brilliant ways AND then the first switch we get we get more dinosaurs back (aside from the Flint realised space assasin dinosaurs we get in Shakara) as FLESH returns. WOW... well actually we might have to look at that one a bit closely. but we'll come to that.

For now just look at those silly little summaries above and thank Tharg that you fine folks have found his might organ cos no other comic would provide you that. And we've only just started.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 October, 2020, 09:18:24 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

World's end

Kingdom - His master's voice ends with Gene walking into the sunset, his world opening as the backstory sees a world about to end. Its great stuff, but not earth shattering.

Shakara on the other hand has been earth shattering from the very start and in Prog 1727 the series reaches its conclusion. From the off its been high concept sci-fi of the highest concept. It started with a relatively simple revenge premise delivered with over the top verve and imagination, fueled by Henry Flints astonishing art. By the end it could be argued that its much the same. But its taken the idea of revenge to world shattering Kirbyesque dimensions. No longer a simple revenge story rather a mind melting, thought snapping revenge story so high in its concept that its pulled up to glorious levels. As worlds collide. Its a story that has no fear, knows no boundaries and as such lets its concept, even the relatively well trodded one of a revenge thrils explode into new depths.

Its just brilliant.

But all good things come to an end. And we'll have a of that coming up in the next couple of years alas. But we'll also get new beginnings. Flesh returns to the pages of 2000ad and I have to say I'm intrigues to see how I find it. The opening episodes are the best and worse of Mills. It dallys over old ground yet still throws a million ideas out a minute. Sometimes I wish rather than throw so much at the wall Mills would take his time to explore the good ones a little more fully and find new ways to stretch them. Still there's some good honest dino action and this makes it a good, thrilling read and a decent opening.

A new begining that starts a journey to an end sees Red Seas take Shakara's slot. I've said so many times its the strength in depth that makes this period stand out and the beginning of 2011 underlines that point...

...oh except I really don't like that nod of the head to the old chrome logo on the new masthead. Its looks sadly dated already!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 October, 2020, 09:17:20 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

So then Dante rolls back in. Its bloody seamless.

But lets talk Flesh shall we. 'Texas' seamlessly jumps on as a very direct sequel to Book 1. Which isn't necessarily a good thing? Uncle Pat seems to blend the ideas he had in 'Legend of Shamana' and wrap them back into the original. Thus striping the charm from that earlier, magnificent story without adding anything from the poor Shamana... buit somehow it works. I know its not a popular option but I like James McKay's art on the strip. If dirty and hard like the world it paints so vividly and his dinosaurs are full of life and character.

I was nervous about how Carter would work. I know she was seen as anacaronistic, but I found her a plusible character, who made perfect sense as a woman whose father was Claw Carver. Paster Sunday, now him I find clumsy and cliche, but we know Pat has beef with the clery for very understandable reason... but his early ideas that science (as if it a thing rather than method of discovery) covers up inconconvient truths is just irrirating. The very thing about the sciencitifc method being missed by Pat by hey ho I forgive me the former so i should forgive him the latter.

This story is far from perfect. Does suffer from some Millsian problems but heck I still enjoyed it and it was over far to quickly.

Oh and while this was going on we also get a little strip called Absalom starting... its not bad round here is it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 22 October, 2020, 04:43:10 AM
Flesh is not my favorite and Mills's weakest entry in the prog.  It felt like any of Mill's stories but with dinosaurs.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 22 October, 2020, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 22 October, 2020, 04:43:10 AM
Flesh is not my favorite and Mills's weakest entry in the prog.  It felt like any of Mill's stories but with dinosaurs.

That's the trouble with latter-day Mills all round though, isn't it?

Whether you're reading late-era Flesh, Slaine, Defoe or any of Greysuit, it's just a sequentially-illustrated rant about organised religion, government or the upper classes. The only variables are who is delivering the rant, and who they're fighting while they do it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 22 October, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
It's interesting, because those themes have always been in the work - but in the early days (especially) there was also a wonderful mix-in of big-hearted themes featuring metaphorical orphans (Charlie & Big George, for example) and a joyful, playful whimsy threaded in amongst the polemic. The battle between Mek-Quake and Torque-Armada, or the shenanigans of Grobbendonk, allow us a respite.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 October, 2020, 08:35:47 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

New beginnings and impending ends

So 6 months into 2011 and the thrills have just kept coming. It not until June and Prog 1740 we get our first jump on. Until then we get Tharg showing off his ability to add more thrills to his arsenal, just as we get the build to the ends of two long running stories.

Both Dante and Red Seas have excellent stories building to their respective ends in this run up to Prog 1740. Red Seas - Gods and Monsters slips in more christian mythology and ends the Cradle of Filth story in fitting high adventure style. Its wonderful stuff.

Dante - Bad Blood is a key story in the closing arc as true colours are seemingly revealed and Lulu returns to type we think. Or are piece falling into place.

At the same time Absalom is introduced. It took Self Absorbed YNWA a while to get into this thrill, while many found it immediate. Its interesting reading it back for the first time (christ I'm now entering a time when I've never re-read many of the upcoming thrills, though they are almost 10 years old now, they were relatively new, 4 years ago when we crafted NuYNWA for this re-read. I'm not quite sure what happens when NuYNWA and Self Absorbed YNWA actually collide. I hope its okay...

...anyway I'm getting distracted...

Yes Absalom is much more immediate this time and while both Dante and Red Seas are putting their pieces into place for the conclusion. Absalom is putting its core pieces into place and the set up is utterly satisfying in retrospect. We're also finding new shorter form tales. Cadet Anderson arrives in a solid story of Cass's past. and next Prog we will get 3riller's starting.

It would seem Tharg is getting his pieces into place too.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 25 October, 2020, 03:48:08 AM
Red Seas was a great thrill and was allowed to mature and grow over time. What did assist the thrill was that it was published quite regularly and no need to wait years for the next chapter - like many of Edginton stories these days (we discuss this on the Helium thread).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 October, 2020, 06:32:35 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 25 October, 2020, 03:48:08 AM
Red Seas was a great thrill and was allowed to mature and grow over time. What did assist the thrill was that it was published quite regularly and no need to wait years for the next chapter - like many of Edginton stories these days (we discuss this on the Helium thread).

Yeah I think the upcoming Ultimate 2000ad collection will serve it really well and those that read it again will get a real treat. I recall it came in for a bumpy ride towards its end but it worked as an episodic series of tales but by the end so well as an epic thrill.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 25 October, 2020, 10:04:41 AM
The thing about Red Seas- of which I was never a fan and which I regularly skipped in the weekly- was Steve Yeowell's art. I have never really warmed to it and Red Seas was when it seemed to become even more impressionistic and lacking in background detail.

However. I recently had call to read all of Black Shuck, another one that I didnt connect with in the prog, and found myself thoroughly enjoying it and gaining a new appreciation of Yeowell's brushwork. (If its brushwork. I have no idea how he draws.) This, combined with my growing to very much like his interpretation of Sinister Dexter, leads me to consider reading Red Seas from the start.
One of the good things about having all the progs upstairs, is that theoretically I can do that without waiting for the collection. However, practicality and the prospect of debagging and then rebagging, probably means I will wait for the collection. Has any of it been Floppied, can anyone remember? I dont have the hardback that was released.

SBT
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 25 October, 2020, 10:57:13 AM
The Red Seas has a complete collection (two volumes) but I think it is only available in digital.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 October, 2020, 01:55:45 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 25 October, 2020, 10:57:13 AM
The Red Seas has a complete collection (two volumes) but I think it is only available in digital.

Yeah this was never released physically so as far as I know Red Seas has never been reprinted beyond the first 2 books and interlude that followed that (thanks Barney). Such a shame as its so good.

So yeah there are the two digital collections, but if you want physical then collecting the 4 volumes of 2000ad Ultimate Collection is definately the way to go. I don't get many things reprinted as I love reading the Progs (well actually this is getting increasing poppycock... but relatively!) but Red Seas I will definately be getting.

Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 25 October, 2020, 10:04:41 AM
The thing about Red Seas- of which I was never a fan and which I regularly skipped in the weekly- was Steve Yeowell's art. I have never really warmed to it and Red Seas was when it seemed to become even more impressionistic and lacking in background detail.

As for the Might Yeowell's art - well I've never been shy of saying how much I love it - but over Red Seas you get a real insight in how much he plays with his style and the early episodes, the mid phase and the later episodes are really different.

I remember writing a Blog post for the then tolerable ECBT 2000ad about why I liked the open style he used in the latter tales. It gave things an epic open feel and when so much was based on open water and oceans that really worked for me.

I really hope folks pick up the Ultimate Collections and re-evaluate it in the way SBT is suggesting he'd like to. Not to say it will changes eveeryones mind but I hope it does some.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 November, 2020, 12:00:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Three cheers for 3rillers

Prog 1740 has another stella line up. But I'm not here to talk about the magnificence of Colin MacNeil and John Wagner releasing PJ in 'The Further Dasterdly Deeds of PJ Maybe'. Nor the delight in Mills' best recent thrill Savage with Book (gulp) 7. And Sinister Dexter continues on blistering form as Dabnett and Anthony Williams start to play with time and and stability of reality through the prism of roof top gun play and cop chases, but that doesn't dominate my thoughts. Not even Al Ewing and Henry Flints chilling (particularly today) prediction that one day Donald J Trump Jr would be president of the US in the brilliant third Zombo story 'The Day The Zombo Died', a story that introduces Obmoz. No none of these. Though I might come back to many of them.

No the best thing about this run is a quiet piece of Genius from Matt Smith (I assume) in service of Tharg. The introduction of 3rillers. Why are these stories so significent? Well three fold I think.

1) They reduce the use of Sinister Dexter (and similar) strips as filler at the approachs to relaunch Progs. They act as a great way to allow the strips shoved into these gaps freedom and Sinister Dexter has really benefited from this becoming a feathure thrill again... he types just as its been used as an interrupted gap filler in the current Progs damnit. But the principal stands.

2) It adds a nice verity to the self contained stories. So we don't lose Future Shocks, or Terror Tales, b ut we have a nice new platform for different story types that stretch beyond that format but serve a similar purpose.

3) They provide a great platform to try out new ideas. Many 3rillers feel like they are designed to be nothing more than the 3 issues they fill. But some give the impression that they are try outs for concepts and in a few cases we've seen that come to fruition.

That's a potent cocktail that really gives these done in three strips real value. In and of themselves they, like Future Shocks are very variable in success. Some work wonderfully, some work not so well. Its interesting that so many seem to have great opening episodes but the real test seems to be how they sustain that over the remaining two parts. And its there that we find a real mixed bag.

The first 3riller 'The Silver-Tongued Expliots of Cosmo Nibs' - what a great title! - is a story I don't really remember. Which is odd as its a great example of a 3riller at its best. Each episode of this tale of the rise and fall of a con man with a chip implanted in him that allows him to seduce folks to his ways, has its own solid function. Each works as a mini-story in its own right. First episode set and build intrigue with a punchy ending. Second has some explaination and constructs the world we are exploring more completely. Final episode has action and resolution. He its done clinically and so well by TJ Eglington and John McCrea.

I wanted to highlight 3rillers now as I suspect (a few exceptional exceptions I can think of aside) I will drift past them often with little mention. But I wanted to flag how much I appreciate what they have brought to the Prog as an idea. Even if I start to dismiss some in execution.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 November, 2020, 12:03:29 PM
Oh and bloody hell. Meant to add I Day of Chaos starts next prog (just read 1742) I will never, ever get over this being more recent than it is I don't think. I refuse to accept it started 9 bloody years ago - and worry I always will!

So soon as Tour of Duty too...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 04 November, 2020, 12:37:46 PM
I also like the concept of the 3rillers it allows the creators to give a little bit more flesh to the story. The other thing is that it can be used for a proof-of-concept where the water is tested rather than to infest in a full series. Two 3rillers have already involved into full series. Even Future Shocks have involved into 3rillers
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 November, 2020, 08:40:57 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Oh its another superb line-up - sigh...

I've begun to realise that during this NuGolden Age I'm in danger of taking the excellent for granted and I wonder whether that was a factor in when I think this period ends. Have things been so superb that when the Prog returns to just regular good it can be dismissed as a real dip. Its one to watch for... in the future... well the future of the past at least.

As it is however the run of Progs between 1740 and 1749 a nice tight, self contained run of stories is quite fantastic... damnit. Its so much hard to write this stuff when all you have to say is X is great, Y is superb, how wonderful is Z...

But lets try to avoid taking things for granted and break things down just a little more.

Dredd - so PJ escapes as discussed below in a brilliant three parter and then we get the superb, absolutely superb start to 'Day of Chaos'. Wagner starts to turn the screw tighter and tighter from the beginning. Dropping hints of the scale of whats to come. Building the tension initially on the small scale as a small pocket of Sov sleepers and agents work to kidnap a scientist, expert in chemical weapons. Wagner, as ever the master of his craft very smartly introduces an unreliable, precog Psi-Judge to direct us as to what's to come. Its also allows Dredd to standout amongst his priors as he listens, he acts, he investigates and drives things forward.

Its another masterclass... and then he get shot in the face ... apparently and the bubble bursts. I strongly sit in the camp that says the shooting of 'Dredd' in the first episode if Prog 1749, only to reveal it was actually another Judge riding into shot in the next episode at the end of the Prog is an utter misstep and just explodes the building tension, not Dredd's face. It adds nothing and distracts from so much. Shame, but its a side note and I'll try not to let it distract for two long.

Zombo - The Day the Zombo Died - Zombo has always been dialled up to 11. The amazing thing Al Ewing and Henry Flint do in this third story is realise that if you've dialed to 11 all you have left to do is dial it up to 12... and they find a way to do it. The ridiculous concept of Trump as president. An even more powerful reverse Zombo, so wonderfully called Obmoz to fight. Zombo getting his brains literally shot out and therefore reset... all just amazing... and then the real genius as they build to the fourth book the reveal they have a 13 to dial up to.

Just glorious use of comics to produce funny, thrilling hyper-reality.

Sinister Dexter - Is controversial to many as Inverse Ninjas are introduced and storylines are pushed to an end, as alas id Anthony Williams time on the strip as I recall. Its a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't for Dabnett. Folks had had enough of the Moses War. Dabnett finds a fun smart way to move the series on and folks don't approve of that... well many folks that is. I love it, its superb, action packed, funny, smart and really drives the plot forward with compelling pace.

Savage - the uncredited and under rated Millsian classic. Its his best work as right wing extremist Bill Savage forces Uncle Pat to address things from a different perspective which shifts the strips heart to a less cliched (for Mills) place and makes it work. All the while the playground he has created, dropping early ABC Warriors links into the series means it a fun, rich  holistic and fun world to play in and watch. In 'Secret City' we get an army of Blackbloods from those damned Volgs as Savage races to get some American pilots with impoertant secrets to safety. Its thrilling, wonderfully, wonderfully realised by Patrick Goddard and just great fun.

All this and to add to the mix three fresh and exciting concepts in 3rillers. This is the perfect example of a perfect, self contained line-up.

See nowt to say when its this good for so long!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 November, 2020, 02:43:11 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Oh its another superb line-up - sigh... (Reprise)

The more things change the more they stay the same during this period in 2000ad's history. I mean jez there is some excellent stuff, some really really excellent stuff.

We had a great self contained line-up between 1740 and 1749, leading to a clearing of the desks in Prog 1750 and a completely new line-up in Prog 1750, well the continuing Day of Chaos in Dredd aside. But you know what nothing has changed the quality is just as good, in fact its better in the line up from 1750 to the end of the year in 1763.

Dredd - Day of Chaos just keeps cranking up the the pressure. Its a slow steady build, that at the time built the tension supremely. It works even better in re-read however as for once knowing where things are going only adds to the impact. You have no false hope, no wonder at how Dredd will pull this one out the bag. Just the grinding acceptance that he won't and you see each mistake as it drops into place. Yet your so invested you still care, you still think, surely not...

... but nothing will change...

Ampney Crucis - The English Assassin - this is the story when this series really clicked with me. It was kinda just there beforehand but here when I first read it I bought in entirely. All the pieces were in place. The stakes felt real and it all just bolted together. I've enjoyed it all in re-read, possibly for the reason stated, as I know already this is coming and am able to enjoy the build - but this one still feels like an elevation. Its probably becuase Crucis himself feels more vulernable and therefore likable.

What is also exciting is I can't remember now the next (and I think?) final story goes and I'm really looking forward to re-read that one.

Indigo Prime -Everything and more \ Anthropocalypse - its billed as two stories, but really its one and an amazing one to boot. Its is also the reason in the recent Art Droid vote I think I'd have voted for Edmund Bagwell over Brian Bolland - no seriously his art he is that good. Don't get me wrong I adore Bolland BUT... well I think sometimes its easy to get pulled into reflecting back on art from your youth more positively as its so formative in what makes great art in your head. But stop, pick up this story and reflect, Bolland would have done an epic job on this I'm sure. Jigsaw Man makes clear he's able to do the incredible and fantastic BUT could he have done the horror as well. Would the design have been as breathtaking. The page layouts as bold and compelling, able to drive the story along as well... could he have done all 12 episodes so they came out in just 14 weeks (I know, I know you shouldn't judge the art by the speed).

I honestly think Bolland isn't capable of doing this story with quite the same astonishing verve as Edmund Bagwell. Go on I dare you go back and judge for yourself...

Oh and John Smith's story is bloody astonishing too! Glorious word play, fanastical ideas and all bound in a deceptively simple plot to elevate both (plot and story) to a different level. Genius.

Angel Zero - An easy one to forget but we don't have enough of these contained done in one go multi-part stories like this. This one by Kek-W with typically brilliant artwork by John Burns is a doozy. Its a driven, high octane thrill ride. The story Maggie Roth trying to escape her past so she can live her future. It just keeps going, driving character and readers forward in such brilliantly unrelenting style. Then BANG its gone and doesn't need to come back... well okay, okay I'd actually love to return to this world to she how the child she is carrying at the end of the story turned out, but there's no real need.

Low Life - The Deal - in many way the culmination of the series, though of course it will be back to such wonderful affect in a year or so. But this stroyline wraps up Aimee Nixon's tale... well of course it doesn't... but it sees Frank reach the end of his tale... well of course it doesn't... it ends the power struggle on Low L... well look nothing really ends here does it. But it could have. This is a magnificent conclusion, even if it continues. We learn so much about Frank and this story really finished the slow and wonderful development we've had of him as a character. Its a fantastic character study wrapped in crazy no holds barred action adventure.

Just wish they hadn't kept doing the shooting him to the point it felt implusible that either him or Aimee were still going by the end!

Oh and D'Israeli's art is sublime.

So all that, 5 great to astonishing stories and a quite brilliant Sinister Dexter tale to wrap up (a little to quickly) much of the Moses War storyline.

Interesting both Dredd and Sinister Dexter will continue into the end of year Prog, but I'll get to that next year, irritatingly as I can't wait to crack on with both.

And so we're done with 2011. I'll be back in the next day or two to review the year. But man the second half (at least) has had two line-up that really have cemented the ideas that this NuGolden Age is as good as any time the Prog has known.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 November, 2020, 03:24:54 PM
Angel Zero was for me one of those  underrated stories.  Would not mind if it returns
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 November, 2020, 09:35:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2011

Blah, blah blah, praise. Yackity splaterty Yack gush. Jabber jabber jabber NuGolden Age. Good grief is it any surprise that I'm always forgetting to do these end of year review thingies these days. Its really quite dull to look at a year and all you can say is again some core classics running through, underpinning Tharg's ability to drop yet more new material to keep things freah. And its another year like that. So last years prediction was of course utterly correct, when I said...

QuoteAnd so we go into 2011 and I strongly suspect its going to be much the same, just as this year and the year prior, building on what's gone before and creating new thrills to add to the pot.

Yep this again. I've long since given up saying which was the best year in thrillpower but its hard to imagine any two Prog runs as contained and fantastically balanced as the last two of 2011. Which isn't to say the beginning wasn't smackin' as well. It was but those two very contained runs are really  easy to define as brilliant. Next year its not going to be any different is it. So

QuoteAnd so we go into 2011 2012 and I strongly suspect its going to be much the same, just as this year and the year prior, building on what's gone before and creating new thrills to add to the pot.

BUT, but, BUT, we'll get an ending, a big ending. An important ending. And a question. As Dante goes does he leave leave a hole that even Tharg's form of late can't fill. Do we see a chink in the Golden armour? Are things going to start to weaken. We almost certainly won't get to answer that until the following year, but it will be interesting to see how the next couple of years develop...

... trouble is to get more interesting the Prog is going to have to get worse and boring as it is we don't want that!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Greg M. on 16 November, 2020, 09:46:43 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 November, 2020, 09:35:32 PM
As Dante goes does he leave leave a hole that even Tharg's form of late can't fill.
Less a Dante-shaped hole specifically, more a Robbie Morrison-shaped one in general.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 November, 2020, 09:17:02 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Early thoughts on great things - 2012 begins

Early 2012 has two of the great stories in 2000ad's history in my mind. That's no mean feat. But they are surrounded by many lovely things so I think its time for one of these short and snappy numbered thingies.

1. Prog 2012ad makes the smart move for pausing 'Day of Chaos' the grinding ill omens it stamps out are not for a Christmas mood.

2. The 'Don't' choose your own adventure of 'Choose your own X-Mas' is a genius choice of sub. Its not as dark as DoC... but it has its own twisted darkness with is just perfect for X-Mas 2000ad

3.Mind if we think DoC is too dark for X-Mas 2000ad what the heck is the superb 'Absalom - Sick Leave' it brilliant but damn its grim.

4. So if one of the great stories of 2000ad's history is paused  the second 'The Wedding of Jena Makarov' begins in 2012ad. With Dante being born and 'bonding'(ish) with his pirate mum. In the 'present day' the line of war are drawn and Dante hangs tortured and beaten... ho ho ho.

5. Don't worry the next just sees the torture and brutal mauling of romans and Britons as Aquila makes its violent and wonderful entrance.

6. But X-Mas is the time for giving and Tharg in these days doesn't - of course - stop short of one great new thrill and wipes out the luxary stocking filler of 'Grey Area; as his next new thrill.

7. But the mood is delightfully lightened by the cutist of Sinister Dexter tales as our gunsharks trip through the dimensions chasing Ms Deeds. The dimensions of course involve JD, Old One Eye, Dante, Johnny and Wulf and Gene the Hackman. Its an indulgence but X-Mas is all about over indulgence and this one revels in it and is a nice capper to the over arching story.

8. Johnny is back from the dead as well... but he's got a banging headache and we'll come back to that.

9. So we enter the new year line-up with Day of Chaos crushing hope in such a magnificent way, Grey Area being much better in its opening than I remembered, Nikolai Dante being precision brilliance, Absalom charging back (after skipping a prog) is dark and delicious form and Strontium Dog of course absolutely brill... well actually compared to the other thrills I find it a bit miandering...

10. See the other thrill and punchy have clear purpose and tone and I find the start of The Project a little drifty as I've found some other longer form Strontium Dogs. With this creative team its of course not bad, its crafted expertly. Its just it lacks the strangle hold the others have on where its going and what its doing. That might not be a bad thing. Johnny is in a similar state, its just it stands out like a sore thumb here against the pure fried glory of DoC and TWoJM.

Still if not quite perfect Strontium Dog is the worst I have to say we're in pretty damned fine shape aren't we!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 November, 2020, 09:25:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

All change ... but not all

After two tight lean runs at the end of 2011 things get a bit choppier in early 2011. Not specifically a problem but a interesting point of note. Dante and Day of Chaos form the spine of the first half of 2012. You feel Tharg would have liked the second half of 'The Life and Death of Johnny Alpha' to be a third strand. Alas just as the story finds its steel and direction as The Project stands about to be revealed in Prog 1771 it drifts out. Part 2 of this story doesn't really do anything in an of itself. It bridges the big resurrection line of Chapter 1 and the further betrayals of mutant kind in the later chapters but in itself it doesn't really feel complete alas. Still by the end its gaining momentum that means Chapter 3 can't come quickly enough.

Absalom finishes a great little story. In come two second books, which will have mixed results as I recall. Age of the Wolf and modern Flesh - with the omninous sign of 7 riders of the horizon, a Mills staple riding well trodden ground, but we'll come to that.

Grey Area then ends a superb run of early stories, one I didn't rate too highly at the time, though I enjoyed it enough. The slight shame is knowing on re-read that the excellent twist at the end of Bulliet's reveal as a xenophobe is just a slight of hand. More soon.

In then comes Zaucer of Zilk for something a little bit special as I recall. Ewings clever word play wonderful supporting McCarthy's glorious visuals and ideas. Gaps and filled and the next stories already approach. This kind of zig zagging of stories is standard fare and makes for a good and heady mix. It does however feel curious after the end of 2011. But then a bit of curiousity is of course a very good thing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 02 December, 2020, 01:40:53 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

And so the end is near...

...and Dante faces his final curtain.
His father he's done in
And his mother is dead now for certain.

The Tsar is on the run
And he and Jena are more than flirtin'

but more, much more than this
Dante end did it the best way...

Okay I lost that towards the and I'm kinda glad as though praise through song is good, its does rather under play how mind meltingly good the end of Dante is. Across 17 parts Robbie Morrison, Simon Fraser and John Burns play a perfect tune. The 11 part 'The Wedding of Jena Makarov' the action adventure concludes. In a perfectly time piece of comics Morrison and Fraser just wind up the tension and the stakes. They play the reader like fiddles, stringing us along with the cut and thrust of the final conflicit between and similarly captured and doomed Dante and Dmitri Romanov and his Imperial force and the army of thieves and whores. Its just a perfectly played action piece, with so much emotional punch as is befitting this epic.

After that there's just the mopping up of plot lines and characters to be done. In 'The Dante Gambit' however Morrison and Burns, who gets a fitting story to end his contribution on, makes it feel like so much more than just mopping up. They bring to the end a number of stories in style and make it feel like it matters. They've made us really bond with these characters over the years and here the expertly give them all space and time to have a final bow before their audience.

One more to go.

Elsewhere 'Day of Chaos' continues to grind us and Mega City One down. Christ its tense, I know there's no hope!

Flesh Book 2 runs hot and cold at the same time. Zaucer of Zilk positively dances and Age of the Wolf is once again close but not quite there.

There are the end times, but they are good times.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 December, 2020, 09:42:35 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Wobbles can be golden too

Okay so we know Dante is about to end and between 'The Marriage of Jena Makarov' we're just waiting for 'Sympathy for the devil to begin'. Will that be the marker of the end of times, the end of golden days? Well we'll see but heading into the last Dante we do have a wobble, but after so much good we're okay with a wobble... or is that more.

Firstly Age of the Wolf Book 2 is pretty weak. I'll be honest I'm not sure what its point was. Not that it didn't move things on, it certainly did. I'm just not convinced what it was moving on was worth the effort, or what exactly it was trying to say. The art struggled as well.

Elsewhere while we're looking back not forward. The great thing about this Golden Ages is while it did so much good stuff with its good stuff, its great as it strove forward, created some many new, wonderful thrills. In the 1780's we get Cadet Anderson, Retro Durham Red and Flesh. None a problem in themselves, in fact on re-read I've really enjoyed 'Cadet Anderson - Algol' by Grant and The Mighty Yeowell, its been a fun little... something. 'Flesh - Midnight Cowboy' is close but its a set of frustrations alas. I mean Gorehead was almost cast into the future, turning the food from the past into the diners on the future. With lots fractions to extend the story beyond T-Rex eats folks and Reagan and Carver on the fringe this would have been fantastic. Instead we get another band of seven... somethings and a story that never quite makes its mind up OH and makes such glaring scientific errors... okay okay a story about cowboys fighting dinosaurs gets a pass. Or should. The idea that killing some of ancestral creatures of human will kill some of the humans is utter poppycock and gets the way evolution works entirely wrong... if Uncle Pat wants to bash science maybe he should learn how it worlds first rather than just placing it as another monolithical institution to bash...

... sorry this is getting needlessly personal... or self absorbed if you like...

But if this is a wobble how come there's still so much good here. There's some fantastic one off Terror Shocks type things and there's 'Zaucer of Zilk' which has the same dandy and wonder as something like Hewligan's Haircut. Its fizzy, its exciting and its fun... oh and it looks just fantastic, no surprise there.

So there's much to love and we're not just waiting to see off Dante and the wobble is wobbling on very, very strong foundations...

... oh and over in Dredd, Day of Chaos has its own wobble with a needless and distracting Dark Judge's storyline... or do we need the distraction because it continued to grind and grind and grind, quite magnificently and it feels so dreadful and relentless. Its like having weights slowly placed on your chest, slowly, unremitantly crushing you and forcing the hope out of you... but christ alive its magnificent torture.

So yeah we're fine and in Prog 1786 Dante is back for its swansong. The question though remains while it also be the golden age's swansong as well - i predict not - but before we find out lets enjoy the swansong for what it is.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 December, 2020, 10:06:05 PM
Ah - you're at the stage where my coma read got started, more or less. What can I say, except:

(https://i.imgur.com/oX4CJ1c.png)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 16 December, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
I must say, if Age of the Wolf II and nuFlesh are the bad parts of this Golden Age, that puts it streets ahead of the first Golden Age, which had to contend with second-half Mean Arena, Rogue on Horst and the interminable Garpetbaggers...

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 December, 2020, 09:39:24 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 16 December, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
I must say, if Age of the Wolf II and nuFlesh are the bad parts of this Golden Age, that puts it streets ahead of the first Golden Age, which had to contend with second-half Mean Arena, Rogue on Horst and the interminable Garpetbaggers...

Yeah I have to say I agree entirely. The Old Golden Age had some glorious highs - but some crushing lows. The nuGolden Age is far, far more consistent.

But all good things come to an end alas.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

One end, two ends. But The End?

Well I'm not going to answer that. As to whether this is the end of the NuGolden Age? I don't think its is but that's one for time to tell. What we do know is that two long running stories reach an end.

Firstly Day of Chaos drops, seeming suddenly, off the end. But that's the genius of this ending. Day of Chaos works so well, even on re-read, by playing with your hope. We are so used to Dredd, indomitable saving the day. Even when on his knees and seemingly powerless, he somehow finds a way. This has been underlined - so brilliantly in the TOP THREE mega Epic 'Tour of Duty'. In 'Day of Chaos' however John Wagner and assorted artists toy with that, play with our assumption of Dredd's ultimate victory so masterfully that even on re-read, when we know how it ends, its still impossible not to hope. Not to stir in stunned disbelief as each new hope slips away. And so the end is a touch of complete genius, when it just sharply drops away. Cuts off the hope and end with a brutal, horrific counting of the cost.

This is an epic is of failure, of the system, of the man, of the one hope they gave the citizens, that pay so much to have them there. They fail to even protect them. And it all just suddenly drops away and cruelly, viciously suddenly ends. Its harsh and its fitting. Its also gives Wagner his end to Dredd that he will never get to deliever. It gives us Wagner's end to Dredd we would otherwise never get to read.

Nikolai Dante's endings in the following issue 1791 is utterly different. In the 6 part ending 'Sympathy with the Devil' Morrison and Fraser utterly end the story we need to see, that will entertain and in doing so brilliantly open the world to give is the ending we want to craft for the Dante we have made. To allow us to craft the next phase as suits where we want to go, but that won't make great reading in 2000ad.

Dante marries Jena, they rule magnificently and are happy ever after? That's not 2000ad

Dante marries Jena and becomes twisted and broken through the weight of responsibility and lust for power that The (former) Tsar predicts for him. That's not 2000ad.

Dante does a runner, but now a hero has not space for folrics and hi-jinxs and he's crushed by regret and has been beaten by the Tsar who in death has finally robbed Dante of the hope he sort. That's not 2000ad.

So none of those tales, or any others are for the comic. But Morrison and Fraser leave all those stories to us, for us to choose and tell and we see fit.

Now that is a magnificent ending. In Dredd we get Wagner's. In Dante we get our own.

Ending are bitter sweet, they can be hard. But done well they can be wonderful things.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 18 December, 2020, 11:04:51 PM
Seldom does I agree so unreservedly with a conclusion, never mind two I  threw same post. Endings are THE hardest things to get right, in fiction as in life, but both of these endings are perfect. Robbie has the advantage here in that his actually sticks. What a triumph it would have been if John"s had too.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 December, 2020, 08:23:22 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 December, 2020, 11:04:51 PM
What a triumph it would have been if John"s had too.

But no more Dredd - surely the price would be too high?

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

But its not over is it...

So after those ending we're into a downward patch for sure... right... well actually yes. But its the quality of that drop that we have to marvel at. As we head towards Prog 1800 we have much to consider.

I mean things aren't perfect. Dredd post DoC gets off to an unplanned started with two stories that clearly had no sense of the consequences of Wagner's Epic. But even there Al Ewing gives us Judge Maitland, a fantastic addition to Dredd's supporting cast... even if some folks seem to forget she's African Caribbean for some reason. Mike Carroll soon gets the DoC back on track with some fantastic stories with a real sense of the desperation of both the Justice Department and the citizen's of Mega City One.

Elsewhere we have Lenny Zero return in a story - Zero's 7 - that might be a little bit of an unpleasent thing, if it wasn't for the fact its a decently plotted heist caper, but beyond that has nothng to say and so is curiously forgettable for something that seems to be trying hard to be stunning, with a fascinating cast.

The other three (or four) strips though really remind us what this golden ago is made of. Fantastically diverse strips and restless innovation.

Red Seas - Beautiful Freak gives us one of this series heartly side steps with a story set in modern times. Its as fun as a story featuring a quantum tortoise sounds... assuming you think a quantum tortoise sounds fun as I do. When this one is quickly over we get a reminder of the wonderful function 3riller's have within Tharg's arsenal with a neat little number called '15' by Tom Taylor (is that the Tom Taylor?).

Aquila makes its debute in Prog 1792 - well it appeared in Prog 2012ad, but that was a one off and this is its first series and its highly effective. I hadn't remembered how much until re-read. Its hard, exciting and I can make myself forgive a few historical inaccuracies - after all I sure there weren't many seven foot immortal souless warriors (and Spartans' of the same ilk) in 60's Britannia - so a few quibbles over how Londinium and the Boudican revolt are portrayed seem a bit silly! Nice panel of the battle of Watling Street which gives quite a neat summary of how the Roman's won that one... anyway more importantly this is a fantastic new thrill.

Less new, but just as fantastic is the second outing of 'Ichabod and its title of outrageous length'. Another one I have dismissed a little too quickly in my mind. In my head canon this second series sits a little clumsy between two superb bookend series. No such things its a fantastic piece of the work. It develops the use of colour perfectly and drives the central themes of the whole piece forward with grim certainty.

Any comic will miss DoC and Nikolai Dante at its finest - but 2000ad is now has a squad of such depth that it quickly finds more than adequate subs to fill the gaps.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 December, 2020, 09:32:05 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

The Muck 'n' nuBrass Age -

I popped back to the Prog review thread for this one (no need to try to filter things through the addled memory cave that hides so much inside the YNWA noggin anymore - I just look up what I thought about things). I went primarily to see if I bitched and moaned again about a four thrill jumping on Prog and how slight it feels. This was my immediate thought on this re-read. There is a secondary one which I will return to...

... but Self absorbed YNWA, now only 8 years my junior, was far to busy being blown away by the new thrill in the issue - a new thrill also being a pre-requistite of a great jumping on Prog - in this case Brass Sun. Man it gets off to a flier. I mean a really engaging first part that pulls you in and hooks you from the off, as Wren is summoned by her Grandfather, given a quest and then sent off on her tauntaun into the snowy wastes as said Grandfather is brutally captured... A quick scan shows me not alone and it seems to be widely hailed - quite rightly.

Now back to that secondary thought as I read this and that was - Christ I miss Brass Sun. See it will stay uniformly excellent as I recall and I'm well lookin' forward to reading it all again over the coming months. The trouble is its been missing from the Prog for quite some time now (over 2 1/2 years by a quick search). And there we find one of the dilemma's Tharg finds himself with. As we enter a period where I will be debating whether the nuGolden Age ends, or not, we will need new and exciting thrills to bloister up the NOT vote. The trouble is there is only so much creative juice to go around. So while I lament the lose of Brass Sun, I of course hail the arrival of Brink... can both co-exist - well maybe but that would be a hell of a strain on the INJ Culbard droid.

That said there are occasions when Tharg will need to look at his balance and distribution of resource. I mean yes of course I want more The Out, but if that means no more Grey Area - also making a magnificent return in Prog 1800, that's a big cost. Stickleback will be back soon, but then soonish also leave us for 6 years! As the creators ... well create.

I've literally this evening just sung the praises of the March 2021 solicitations for the strength of the line-up that includes so many thrills from the last year or so - that's fantastic and something we need to support and applaude. The trouble is we also need to keep an eye on the cost and reading the first episode of Brass Sun a strip now 'only' 9 years old, I worry how many of the new strengths will also expose new weaknesses...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 28 December, 2020, 12:56:48 AM
The idea of reducing the variety of any given prog by allowing double-episodes is something I dislike in theory but often don't care about in practice.

I *think* the first prog to do it was 450, with the 14-page "A Merry Tale of the Christmas Angel", which only left room for The Ragnorak Job and Tomb of Terror. Still: pretty good lineup.

Then there's prog 900, the single-tale Dredd / Fr1day crossover Casualties of War.

Prog 1013 is (again, maybe) the first use of the scheduling get-out-of-jail-free use of a double episode to close things off before the next prog's jump-on. We get a double-episode of Black Light.

After that, it happens quite frequently: progs 1034, 1049, 1061, 1062, 1075 (1077 is all-Dredd "In the Year 2020") & 1078. Then something breaks and we get an extended period where Sinister Dexter stories are always doubled-up ten (or fifteen) pagers all the way through 1084-1095.

Then it tails off, like my post...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 December, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

When its Golden watch the team that allows the stars to perform

Once you get past Prog 1800 and head towards the end of the year its easy to get distracted by one thing and I'll certainly be coming back to Trifecta, a thrill so bold you can hear Tharg telling us not to worry that Dante is over, he's got it covered. The Prog has a lot else to offer and looking back at the thought of nascent Self Absorbed YNWA its clear good as that thrill was Brass Sun is the stand out at this time.

I'm sure we'll come back to that too - I'm quite sure.

But there's more besides. ABC Warriors hits a rich vein of form as Hammerstein crashes back down to earth, exposes Millians conspiracies and fights prejudice - is it just me or does Mills have Hammerstein meet a Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn charcter as he crashes into lake just to emphasis this theme? - and defies the stories interstory logic with breathtaking ease - yet for some reason I find it fresh and exciting in a way it has no right to be. Maybe rather than being exposed by what surrounds it, its elevated? The joy of the quality it keeps company with washing it along on the crest of a wave of superb comics, so it shares their momentum and power? Who knows, I'm enjoying it all the same.

There are other enjoyable things Tharg uses to set up the timing required to have his star strips to align. Grey Area has a fantastic short story in 'This Island Earth' as member of the ETC try to prevent an alien diplomat hide murderous acts behind diplomatic immunity. There's some great Twisted Tales as well. There's some very good short form Dredds allowing Cold Deck to join in perfect time.

The strip I'd like to focus on is one of my favourite ever one offs 'Terror Tale - Blackspot' by John Smith and Edmund Bagwell. The sign of a good one off is you remember it. Even good ones burn bright but don't have the time to leave much of a mark. Especially when surrounded by great, longer form stories that have more opportunity make an impression. Its only when they are truly magnificent that I remember them. As is the case with this one.

In a recent thread some asked us to name our favourite one offs - this one sprang immediately to mind. Why? Well that's an interesting question. Its actually a very slight story

SPOILERS.

A couple arguing in a car strike what appears to be a person fleeing across the road at an accident blackspot - marked by a road sign detailing the numbers of victims. Getting out the soon realise that it wasn't a person, but bait to make them stop, leave their car and... They getted added to the numbers on the blackspots warning sign.

There, see there's nowt to it. This is all about the timing and execution. The first page is the couple bickering in the car. This sets the tone, gives the reader a sense of normality and reality. The 'accident' itself is sudden and silent - the drivers shock realised then they slowly get out and in the final two pages Bagwell lets loose with the horror - though of course the ultimate horror of the final killing is left to us.

Its just masterfully done and the genius of John Smith's earthy script is allow Edmund Bagwell to play to his own genius, his uncanny ability to render the absolute real, to ground things and then with the flick of a (digital) pen spring the incredible horror on us in full force.

In essence this Terror Tale is all (well most) that is wonderful about Cradlegrave done in 5 pages. Two creators distilling the core of the plot of that story into a condensed masterpiece.

So while we can celebrate the glories of Brass Sun and Trifecta we must not lose sight of the squad players that allow the superstars to do their attention grabbing best.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 December, 2020, 05:33:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

What makes something Golden?

So Brass Sun, its brilliant right. I mean really good and that's exemplified by the opening book - 'The Wheel of Worlds' but as I read it I was rather struck as to why.

After all its a pretty straight forward quest piece set in a steampunk(ish*) world. Its world should be implusible and the led character isn't immediately likable. So what makes it world. Well don't worry dear reader I've spelled it all out for you.

Bold themes, clearly defined but not overbearing.
Real characters. Wren, 17 (Septimus) and even Ramkin** who comes in at the end all feel real and rounded. There is more to each than meets the eye and none of them feel cliche. I'm particular fond of the no nonsense Wren, almost because she's  not immediately likable but is entirely engaging.
Action, but not at the expense of all and placed to aid pacing perfectly (wish this had been called Brass Planet - I need a P and an E (see below).
Sumptous art that defines character, place and atmopshere. INJ has a simplicity on the surface but his character's acting is second to none.
Suspense, mystery and intrigue to pull you through the story. This one has it in spades

Saddness, when it needs to it hits you where it hurts and does this very early to get you truly engaged with the charaters and gives you real feels, feels that the characters feel = yes this should be an 'F' or an 'E' for emotion (see above) but come on there's three 'S's gimme a break!
Unresolved plot elements - as the series clearly has the advantage of knowing its coming back, its gives you enough to be enjoyable, but leaves you wanting to know more. In this case very explicitly so...
Narrative cohesion. The world, its characters and the way everything pulls together makes perfect sense. Right from the off even though we're taking about a set of artifical worlds all connected by pipes to a Brass Sun it somehow feels grounded and real and you buy into it.

Tharg only knows why I've done this post like that. I suspect we won't be returning this format!

*I'll hold my hands up I'm never quite sure of the exact definition of steampunk, so its possible it might not be steampunk at all?

** One annoying thing this one does is fail to mention Ramkin's name episode to episode. A standard trick when writing 2000ad and there are plenty of opportunities to do so? It might well do it with characters, but I noticed it for Ramkin as I had to look it up when writing this - I think I've mentioned my shoddy memory in the past - don't ask me though I can't remember if I have./i]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 29 December, 2020, 06:30:01 PM
Just wish we can get some more Brass Sun. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 December, 2020, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 29 December, 2020, 06:30:01 PM
Just wish we can get some more Brass Sun.

You are of course entirely correct to do so. Brass Sun is probably the thrill I miss most.

(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Trifecta

Its a bit good isn't it... or is it... As Alex F points out in his recent reevaluation as part of the Judge Dredd Epics Ranked wonder blog...

https://dreddepicsranked.blogspot.com/2020/12/epics-31-29-reaching-for-heights.html (https://dreddepicsranked.blogspot.com/2020/12/epics-31-29-reaching-for-heights.html)

... can it possibly live up to the experience of reading it 'live' and that thrilling rush of excitment as Dredd burst from his own strip into Simping Detective (or ... ahem ... a few pages after as it all finally clicked if your a numbnut noggin like me!) when you re-read it.

The answer is of course no it can't.

his was an absolute treat to experience live and a re-read is like trying to recapture the magic of your favourite live gig by buying a DVD of the event. It evokes powerful memories, but it will never quite capture the rapture of the event as it happened.

Self Absorbed YNWA went to Thought Bubble shortly after the strip breaking events of Prog 1807 and it was the talk of the town... well within the 2000ad nerdom I inhabited there. People were utterly psyched about the whole thing. I carried a copy of Prog 1807 with me, as I have subsequent cons and have it signed by all writers and artists involved in the issue (except Pat Mills who I've missed somehow) - yes I do have a seperate reading copy.

At the 40th bash one of the great original art collecting moments of my art collecting life happened. Chating to the lovely Simon Colbey and getting him to sign the aforementioned Prog, while regaling him with the excitment I felt when I read that door breaking page, he casually dropped the fact that he had that page (kinda - that's another story told on another thread) with him for sale. I couldn't believe it and for a bargain price, as its not quite as it appears in the Prog, but as close as its possible to get. And with apologise to Michael Dowling who I was going to spend the last of my original art money I took with me, I snapped it up without question or second thought. Still to this day my best purchase, as I say this page is the source of so much excitment...

... all this to say this story has had magnificent impact and I still think the courage to keep it hidden, to allow the surprise to land with FULL impact is an example of why 2000ad is so special. Its happy to do the brave things, to be bold and different. Any other company would have been publicising this to the hilt, maybe without specifics, to maximise sales. Tharg let it land as it should, utterly unexpected.Wonderfully with an ABC Warriors cover...

...how can it possibly live up to all that. Well it can't can it, but damn it, it gets pretty damned close. I was nervous coming into the re-read of this, trying to view it as just a story, nervous but excited. It holds up really well. As Alex F points out there is a lot going on. Not just in the three plot strands, as they weave in and out of each other, but in the three very distinct writing voices and art styles that realise this as well. Si Spurrier is particularly jarring and wonderful as ever, but his Simping detectove does read starkly different. And that I think is its great strength.

For me the fact it is so clearly three seperate stories and allows the three stories be themselves really works. After all the machinations behind the scenes mean the three protagonists don't know the actions and events, or even the involvement of the others in the overarching plot. So the genius is they are seperate and different and the ties that bind them suprisingly loose, until the end pulls them sharply together in the grand finale of Prog 1812. The brilliance here being Carl Critchlow, the perfect choice for art, somehow managing to embody all the very diverse art styles from the seperate stories, while being utterly his own. He's fantastic and the conclusion is hectic, chaotic and that works for the plot of the finale too.

Next time I read this I'm going to do so reading each story seperately, then Trifecta. I think it will work best like that. So for me this isn't a heroic failure. Or a story that can't stand the test of time, released from the fan excitment of its immediate execution. Its three bold and exciting stories given the extra delight of being bound together in a thrilling, bold and creative way that perfectly serves each of the stories. It might not capture the excitment of that original gig, but damn all those songs are still astonishly good on that DVD and they still send shivers down your spine when you here them again and recall.

Still not as good as Brass Sun mind!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 December, 2020, 07:28:00 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

2012

So when reviewing 2011 I was getting tired of loving the Prog quite so much it was making reviewing to get quite dull, there wasn't much to get my teeth into and even Slaine bashing was getting tiresome (and on a clock as I recall) - I mean how self absorbed is that! And as we approached 2012 I made this prediction...

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 November, 2020, 09:35:32 PM

QuoteAnd so we go into 2011 2012 and I strongly suspect its going to be much the same, just as this year and the year prior, building on what's gone before and creating new thrills to add to the pot.

BUT, but, BUT, we'll get an ending, a big ending. An important ending. And a question. As Dante goes does he leave leave a hole that even Tharg's form of late can't fill. Do we see a chink in the Golden armour? Are things going to start to weaken. We almost certainly won't get to answer that until the following year, but it will be interesting to see how the next couple of years develop...

And this is pretty much spot on. Its ANOTHER magnificent year - sigh. The details of which I've detailed but in summary

End of Dante - Magnificent - truly the best of comics
End of Day of Chaos - Magnificent
Trifecta - Magnificent

There's very few low points - Lenny Zero, Flesh has moments of struggle, Age of the Wolf isn't great... err that's probably it.

Then we get some brilliant new thrills

Grey Area - Very good, if not quite magnificent
Zaucer of Zilk - magnificent
Aquila - Very good
Brass Sun - Magnificent - truly the best of comics

And amongst that magnficent sandwich we get some great second runs for Icheybod and Absalom all is well.

Except change is in the air. Dante has indeed ended, with DoC Wagner ends his Dredd - well he doesn't be it feels like it marks the whining down after two back to back(ish) classic epics and Sinister Dexter is largely absent. The three thrills that really launched the rebuilding of 2000ad have either ended or changed significently. Red Seas is about to end... so while this year has been truly golden will it be the last? If it is how bad will it get. Well actually my prediction is not very bad at all!

I see 2013 likely to be a bit of a transition year. I don't think it will be the best. I don't think it will be of the standard of the last four, but I'm not convinced it will mark the end of the Golden Age, it will mark a low point in the golden age, but a pretty damned high low point and one that its easy to bounce back from.

After all Tharg hasn't been building these new thrills for nothing. No nothing will replace Dante, what could, but there are enough magnificent thrills that it would be truly self absorbed to worry to much. We're on a watching brief, but to be frank it won't be until 2014 if we can tell if the dip (if it happens) has truly marked an end of the nuGolden age , or just a bump in the road... if indeed bump we have...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 31 December, 2020, 07:57:45 AM
2012 was a good year. I actually enjoyed Age of the Wolf
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 December, 2020, 02:36:48 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Prog 2013ad

So I've just read the end of year Prog from 2012 - which has never felt more like the start of year Prog for 2013. I mean they always do, as they set things up for the opening line-up of the New Year - hence I include them in my thoughts for the year they lead into, rather than the year being left - but for some reason 2013ad felt so normal?

Now important to say that isn't a bad thing in and of itself. As brookblik says 2012 was a good year, so more thrills of that standard is no bad thing - at all. Its just when compared to this year's blockbuster, and having only recently read that one its very much on my mind I guess, it just doesn't feel that special.

Both have the opening episodes of first line up of the coming year. So let's put them aside for now shall we. The rest of the content is good, but the episodes of Absalom and Aquila set things up for thrills to come, Ack-Ack Macaque and The Visible Man feel like stories pulling you to other material, pretty much like those tht don't work so well in the current specials. They set things going and often that doesn't actually lead anywhere, though you know it should. So in the case of Ack-Ack Macaque if you didn't buy the novel this was nothing but a slight distraction. In the case of Visible Man it all but disappears - one more Special / end of year Prog aside, I think???

Compare that to Prog 2212. Strontium Dog is a solid, but feels entirely self contained, The Time Twister was fantastic, entirely self contained and felt extra fun for all the past Thrills and Tharg references. Similarly Visions of Deadworld are designed to be self contained and this one was a complete success and curiously upbeat for a story dealing with the death of a world. Finally the utterly atypically feel good Survival Geeks epilogue was a sign-off not a story openner and that felt so right in this type of issue.

Add to that some nice back matter... not in the back, but scattered through the comic this time round all it feels all in all much more substancial in and of itself.

Now I entirely agree that these Progs are designed to open the year, to be the ultimate jump on progs. And with great new line-ups both do that BUT this year's end of year issue shows that this can be done and still feel like a fun annual of old at the same time.

The comparision makes Prog 2013ad feel utterly functional. I mean bloody good comic functional, but functional all the same.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 January, 2021, 01:04:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GDUBOyR.jpg)

Ending on a HIGH ... and  low

Its often said that sticking the landing on any thrill is the hardest trick of them all. Never is that more evident than the mixed bag of endings we get early 2013.

Let's get the lows out the way shall we.

Firstly Ampney Crucis ends on a really bum note. Now fair to say this might not be the intended end, though it does get a very definitive THE END as the last story to date 'Entropy Tango' clangs to its conclusion. Its just drops Crucis' dad in to drop some exposition on us, in whats been a blistering story to that point. This example of tell not show wraps some bits up from this story and seems to open the world up for more... then... nowt... we've not seen it since (I don't think) Its a weak ending to an otherwise great story and possible to the series.

After this Simon Davis moves relatively soon to Slaine I think, so maybe more was planned but both creators have been distracted. Ian Edginton has said this does happen to him a lot and I mentioned recently the constant invention we get during this NuGolden Age (still ongoing TM) is its main blessing, but comes at a cost. This appears - I clearly don't know - as a prime example of that cost. Stories seemingly dropped out of being as so much is coming up OR wrapped up to quickly for the same reason. Shame as Crucis was really coming into form.

Dredd - Wolves there a fantastic Prog review thread discussing the ending to this story

https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=38082.0 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=38082.0)

In which writer Mike Carroll is very generous with his time explaining some of the factors that lead to this being a pretty unsatisfying ending. Many folks misintrepeted the end, which involved citizens with Sov roots being shipped out of Mega City One to protect them for the post Day of Chaos angry towards them from other MC1 citizens. However where they are taken is unclear. I'll put my hand up and say I actually called the ending right - BUT still think it struggled as it wrapped up some really interesting ideas too quickly needed further development - that may come down the line...? Either way to me it shows that a real trick in a comic as condensed as 2000ad is to keep the momentum up right to the death, to maintain tension and thrill power BUT still, in as little as a page provide a satisfying ending.

In part the confusion mentioned earlier, seems to be due to some lack of communication between writer and artist - and maybe therefore lack of input from Matt Smith as editor. A hands off approach that's really appreciated by many creators from what you read and therefore reaps great reward. However in this case it shows one of the issues this creates. Where an editor maybe should have looked at the art and stepped in and asked for some improved clarity in what was being shown.

This demos another trick of a good ending, all parties need to be coordinated and singing together in harmony. If the ending in a 2000ad can be tight and quick everyone has to be on their game and know what the game plan is to land it so precisely.

So lets look at some examples of when that's done well, really well.

Savage - Rise Like Lions is possibly my favourite book of the saga to date. Its a tight lean war story as the Battle of London begins and Bill and a bunch of rebels fight a hard and determined reguard action to defend the last bridge remaining across the Thames.

The story as a whole does a delightful thing and brings the story in Savage into, sharp, close focus as it draws into a few combatants, on both sides, and brings them to vivid life. Patrick Goddard as much a part of doing this as writer Pat Mills. The genius by both here is by bringing the focus in and tighter they are actually able to widen the scope as well. Developing the tensions amongst the rebels and their confliciting fractions. By making us see the Volgs as so much more human than the mustache twiddling villains they can become. Its also broadens Savages understanding of what has been a simple battle for him for much of the series. KILL THE VOLGS has been his simple mantra. Here he begins to unpick this and realise that the powers driving the recapture of Britain are as bad, or worse, as the current capture and Howard Quartz personifies the less than altrustic motives in helping free Britain.

Its heady stuff wonderfully released. I always think Bill Savage forces Pat Mills to be far more interesting and creative in how he delievers his political dogma.

To the end though. There are so many ways this could have been done. The Bridge is blown, the bridge is saved, the Battle of London this and that. BUT Mills' masterstroke here is he take the tight focus and uses that to drive the ending. Rather than a big bombastic end, that has served Savage so well before, he again draws close and the end focuses on taking out a snipper who has dogged the rugged rebels. In doing, in the 2 pages Uncles Pat uses he throws in a twist right at the end to give this all the impact it needs. Provides a really satisfying conclusion in a very tight space and perfectly sums up the themes this story has dealt with.

Masterful and Uncle Pat and Cousin Pat(rick Goddard) at their very best, which we don't get often enough in Uncle P's case these (self absorbed) days.

The other superb ending at this time is for Red Seas... but that is the end of the series as a whole and as such fully desereves a post of its own - plus I've gone on quite enough for now so I'll come back later to... you guess it.... end this!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 January, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Ending on a high seas

Oh that title just doesn't work does it - unlike the end to Red Seas which is delightful. It works in ways almost entirely different to the Savage story discussed last time. The only thing they have in common is they are entirely appropriate for the story they conclude.

In the case of Red Seas we are given a final story that explodes the scope of the piece open. Red Seas has always been bold, bombastic and centred on fun, so its entirely fitting that the series ends this way. The entire last story 'Fire across the deep' - damn one thing that Red Seas does so well is have cracking storyline titles! - is almost entirely the climatic battle between the goodies and the baddies. Its just what this series needs. It riffs so much of Harryhausen action films of old that a big ol' clash of the titans at the end is just right.

Our galliant heroes at first face off against a giant sea beast - just to set the tone. Quickly they dispense with that and then its off to the land of the dead to face the devil himself and his army of the undead. It feels shallow and light - and to be honest it is - its just bloody thrilling as well. The odds against our heroes continue to mount, a few die, Gods arrive, the devil grows into a towering mega-beast. You know all the rip snorting stuff you expect really.

Smartly though Ian Edginton brings things back to the start(ish) as the escapades end up boiling down to Erebus having to sort it all out by reminding the devil that actually if he thinks he's a big deal, he should remember that our favourite two headed dog had for millenia without number kept the vast armies of the damned in good order and frankly the Morningstar's upstart antics aren't too troubling.

BANG

Cosmic upheaval sorted - quick explainations, nicely delivered all round and off to the pub to a glorious final page salute to our cast and the readers.

Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Quite in keeping with the series as a whole. Perfectly timed and executed. All parties seem to have knowed this would be the end from the get go and all roads in the series have lead here. It feels tight and cohesive.

Then we get to the Might Yeowell himself and damn he's on fire here. He got some flack towards the end of the series from some quarters. Flack I spent some time beating off - I remember breaking down why one post page really worked over at ECBT 2000ad Blog for all the accusations of lack of detail. As if the amount of ink defines the quality of art. Alas that seems to be long gone and I'll spare the detail here (if anyone really wants to I have my original  Google Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XE0r2g_2EsGZwIjB_SNoaLvNzSsdCGHR84mIW2vC030/edit?usp=sharing)but there's no need.

In summary Steve 'The Might' Yeowell is superb. Uses white space to open the world and scope. Makes monsters, bronze warriors, Gods, The Devil, Two Headed Dogs (earthly), Two Headed Dogs (unearthly), an army of the dead, spring to life of the page. But he's also a master of breathing character and feeling into even the most apparently mundane of folks.

He's perfect for this series and this ending is to.

So there we have it Red Seas finished. Somewhat in the shadow of Dante's also excellent ending. In the past I've oft used this as a marker to end the NuGolden Age. Saying it ran from 1634 to 1823 almost 200 neigh perfect issues. But you know what let's put a flag in that and mark it with a big question mark. Having looked at the comics to come as I put 2013's Progs in order I seriously doubt that this is the case. We'll see. Looking at the quality of the Prog in recently memory can we draw a line through and say the NuGolden age never ended, or will there be a significent, sustained dip in quality. Its possible the NuGolden age has reached a zenith, but is it really over?

Well if it is it ended well.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 05 January, 2021, 02:31:10 PM
Obviously we can debate the rnage of excellent to merely very good strips over the last decade or so, but really I don't think we can mark an end to the nuGolden Age until something palpably different in tone hits the Prog. I guess if the Regened era ever creeps up from more than 4 progs per year that'd be a big marker of change. But frankly the tone and scope of 2000AD is stunningly consistent. I suppose the golden ages have largely been marked by the Tharg incumbent, where the first is from whe Mac-1 hits his stride up to, roughly, the point where he takes a sabbatical to the states, and nuGold picks up once Matt Smothhad hit his own stride, which took a few years longer, and involved the likes of Edgington and Abnett stepping up from good writers to insanely good writers.

Oh, and that BRASS SUN acrostic you did - more of that sort of thing, please, Colin! Don't think we didn't notice...  :D
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 January, 2021, 09:19:14 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 05 January, 2021, 02:31:10 PM
Oh, and that BRASS SUN acrostic you did - more of that sort of thing, please, Colin! Don't think we didn't notice...  :D

Never happening again if I can help it... mind you did ask nicely... trouble its next strip I love is (I'll use spoiler tags for those reading along) [spoiler]Ghostship Mathamtica[/spoiler] and there's no way I'm doing that one!

(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Starting small

Well the second wave of thrills in 2013 contained a couple of surprises to me. I mean its long been noted that there is NO WAY Day of Chaos finished almost 10 years ago now and so therefore you can imagine my surprise when Survival Geeks appeared as a 3riller at the beginning(ish) of 2013 almost 8 bloody years ago.

The thing is it makes perfect sense as a 3riller. Its perfect for that format. A cheeky fun little piece that while the concept is pretty open ended and allows for wide exploration and potential there's not much in the theme of 'nerds huh - they're a bit daft aren't they' to really back that potential up. I think that's why I've always struggled with the series in the almost 8 years (stop it already) of its existance.

Trouble is I bloody loved the end and so while both self absorbed and nuYNWAa have enjoyed the 3riller, self absored YNWA sees absolutely no reason for it to come back BUT NuYNWA is actually really intrigued to see what it actually does and how it stands up on re-read.

Oh and while we're at it Intestinauts started as a Future Shock - which I'd also completely forgotten about - I had them down as starting in that FCBD Regened Special a few years back... but then that might have been after the short series they had? Oh NuYNWA is pretty mixed up about it all. Either way its another example of a small, but cheeky thrill - but this one has slowly, over time, build up and I believe is getting a new series (did I imagine that???) soon.

From tiny acorns hey!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 January, 2021, 09:06:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

3riller is the magic number - The Ghostship Mathematica

I love The Ghostship Mathematica by David Baille and Inake Miranda - I've mentioned it before and I'm damned sure I'll mention it again. I love it so much at the 40th bash amongst the select issues and treats I took I took this strip all three parts - to get it signed by David Baille.  Its a 3riller. For those that don't remember it its a tale in three parts - which I know is obvious it being a 3riller but by which I mean its told in three very distinct parts. Each episode is its own tale which comes together to tell a complete story.

First off we get the young boy desperate for adventure running from 'home' and excepted aboard a pirateship

Second we jump forward years to learn of  the ship mets its demise just as learn the ships secrets and its quest.

Third we get the boy's escape from his desert island (or planet) and the plot he launches to get to the ships treasure island (or planet)

The joy of this is that structure gives this tale an epic scope in just 15 pages. I mean really it tells a tale of a life, the ghosts of the human race, pirate plot and hijinks, life shipwrecked, treasure hunt and more. In 15 beautiful pages. The design world and storytelling by Miranda is just sublime.

I understand why others may not remember this strip ahead of others. It may not standout to many. And I've mentioned before sometimes you can't quite put your finger on why you like stuff - you just do, In this case I know exactly why I like it so much. I like it so much cos its a god damned masterpiece. Was then and is now and will be again.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: AlexF on 14 January, 2021, 01:37:27 PM
I love Miranda's art but he's on that awkward cusp of being just a little bit too child-friendly to fit into 2000AD, despite his effortless way with action and weird-looking designs. He's kinda perfect for Regened - and in fact Ghostship-type material would be an ideal fit for that, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 January, 2021, 04:32:39 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 14 January, 2021, 01:37:27 PM
I love Miranda's art but he's on that awkward cusp of being just a little bit too child-friendly to fit into 2000AD, despite his effortless way with action and weird-looking designs. He's kinda perfect for Regened - and in fact Ghostship-type material would be an ideal fit for that, wouldn't it?

Yeah that's actually a really good point. Something like Ghostship m would be an absolutely perfect fit for the Regened Progs. That really episodic build is just what's needed.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 January, 2021, 09:30:07 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Ending on an all to open seas

Firstly I've lost all my Imgur images - but I've copied my banner URL in case it get fixed. Or I realise my problem. If you see them cool. If not I hope normal service will be resumed soon?

In recent comments I seem to be talking a lot about endings. The good and the bad. But mainly the good. In Progs 1834 and 1835 we get two endings that demonstrate some problems with 2000ad.

In Prog 1834 we get to the end of 'Planet Zombo'. The story to that point is dense, rich crazy fun. Zombo is what Zombo is meant to be and not influenced by the brain in his bum. Hank Epsilon is a planet hurtling towards Earth to reap havoc. Four is most certianly not the magic number - our indeed Fab or fantastic for The Beatles(ish) and The FF(ish) as they get merrily pulled apart. Its magical nonsense of the finest order and there is so much more packed in and NO way any other comic could have a story summarised like that.

In the end Zombo is chopped in half. His bottom half with the striper brain escaping back to Earth. This top half trapped on Planet Epsilon sent hurtling back into space by the moon used as projectile. We are promised a return - we so desperately need in 'Viva Zombo' ... and then...

Al Ewing makes a damned fine success of his US career and until this years sublime Sci-Fi Special we never se him again. 8 years and nothing. I mean Al Ewing deserves all his success - but 2000ad, with these open ending will always be at risk to its stars moving on and leaving us all dangling. I mean sure we've not been severed in half and our disperate parts cast into different parts of space BUT it feels like it if your a fan of Zombo.

Stickleback 'Number of the Beast' has a similar ending. In that it leaves us hanging after another very satisfying story, with plots openned, antigonists revealed and generally the 'To be continued' meaning this feels less a satisfying story as a bridge between two parts. Now fair to say we'll get an even more tantalising dangling ending next year (I think) when we get our next story. An ending even more frustrating than Zombo's - redemned only by the fact we now have it back. made all the more frustrating in the 6 or 7 years we had to wait to get to the continuation by the regular presence of both creators...

...anyway I'm getting ahead of myself. From Self Absorbed YNWA's perspective the ending of 'Number of the Beast' still annoys a little. Its a good story... or part of a story, its not a complete story. It has some plot threads end but it doesn't satisfy. The modern multiple part, larger scope nature of the stories in ongoing series. These individual books need to be better designed to satisfy on their own and this one fails to do that.

We don't need absolute conclusions. In fact an open ending can work just fine to draw us in but it has to feel more satisfying and that's 'Number of the Beast''s failing it feels like it only purpuse is to serve the wider story and that frustrates.

Still there is much to love to replace things. But again I'm getting ahead of myself and will leave you dangling... when will I return, well you'll have to wait and see...

mind you can probably guess it won't be that long I'm unlikely to shut up am I !

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2021, 09:26:17 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Told you I wouldn't keep you hangin' long! And I'll persist with the image drop in the hope my issues are my own and Imgurs,

Good things in small packages

So while some big stories are coming to clumsy endings there some lovely examples of small form storytelling popping up during this period. I've already given Ghostship Mathematica its moment to shine and its followed by another storming 3riller in Gunheadz. A examination of fandom, story creation - with a wonderful answer to the question 'Where do your ideas come from?' - and anthapomorhic weaponry.

This is joined by some fantastic Terror Tales / Future Shock. David Baille of aforementioned Mathematica fame shows why its such a same he seems to have moved on from Tharg early with The Death Magnetic about a cassette tape that brings terrible fates with it. This one has art by Will Morris who I don't remember seeing again? He also writes 'Time is the only Enemy' with Graeme Neil Reid a gloriouisiy meta tale of the cost of writing tales and the struggles with finding an original Future Shock. Finally Monty Nero joins in with a fun tale 'Rattle' about snakes attacking a town, this one reading like the bastard child of an old Annual story.

Its not just the one shots either. Alan Grant and Carlos Ezquerra give us a moving and effective Cadet Anderson story 'One in Ten' which while a 6 parter breezes along and feels much shorter - in an efffective way that means it doesn't feel dragged out. It a chilling examination of the close of having a closer link to Mega City One. I have to say I'm enjoying Grant's Cadet Anderson stories far more than I remember doing at the time.

Its not all about the short form as we get some fantastic longer stories starting - Witless Protection is a great Sinister Dexter story and Ten Seconders pops back and I'm sure I'll talk about these in due course. But for now I want to rejoice in the shorter stories that are such a staple in Tharg's plans. I can dismiss and undervalue them but when you get a run of winners like this you appreciate how they really add something different to the Prog. Particular a nice antidote to the problem I've just prattled about of open ended ending to longer for 'books' of ongoing series. Its great to have a small, sharp shot of thrillpower as a palette cleanser.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 16 January, 2021, 12:37:19 PM
It really is about time we get some of the 3rillers collected, isn't it?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 16 January, 2021, 12:37:19 PM
It really is about time we get some of the 3rillers collected, isn't it?

Did I dream that had happened? Was it in one of the floppies?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sintec on 16 January, 2021, 01:24:37 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 16 January, 2021, 12:37:19 PM
It really is about time we get some of the 3rillers collected, isn't it?

Did I dream that had happened? Was it in one of the floppies?

Not a dream, the floppy with Meg 403 collected:

I keep wondering if a book of these in the Ultimate Collection might be a thing. They seem like a perfect candidate.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2021, 05:48:16 PM
Arh thank you - still plenty moer that could be run I see. Yeah a collection of 3rillers would make for very interesting reading - While I rarely look on Barney for things relating to this thread I though this won't matter given the nature of 3rillers and there been arouind 30 of them - 28 listed up to Prog 2148, I can think of at least 1 more since then, maybe more. So what at around 90 x 5 pages so 450 - that would be a nice collection, or two... or three!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2021, 06:21:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

So this is what a pun of Sinister Dexter should be like - Witless Protection

Saying Sinister Dexter has had its day is like being one of those folks on Facebook who say 2000ad has been any good since [insert date], or the Prog has been on a steady decline since [insert Prog #]. Now I accept that's a little provocative as many hold the former view, while being nothing like those that hold the latter*. The think is I loves ya BUT YOU ARE WRONG.

Oh you think I need to make a balance arguement do you rather than simply typing in all caps? How long you been on the Internet. Okay, okay how about this.

Sinister. Dexter. Is. Still. Great.

What so a full stop after each word doesn't convince you.... it adds emphasis... to push my view over your... you... you still need a reasoned argument... Jez you haven't accept how the Internet works have you.

Okay now Self Absorbed YNWA is perfectly armed with 'Witless Protection' - NuYNWA has a host of others - well pretty much everything since then (or whatever point you happened to stop liking Sinister Dexter.) but lets stick with the theme of the thread and go with ol' Self Absorbed has shall we.

Witless Protection picks up the tale as Sinister, once again as Malone is on Generica, this time under witness protection. He of course can't keep out of trouble. Eventually he is forced to track down Ray and Tracey, happy living the suberban dream that you strongly suspect Ray has alway dreamt off, to recapture the happiness of his family upbringing. It of course all goes horribly wrong.

Witless Protection is exactly what the stumbling Bulletopia should be - all be it its only 12 issues. The story - like its modern cousin is broken into solid short story chunks. But they run back to back so there is absolutely no lose of momentum. Each episode is expertly crafted by Dabnett in the way he does in his more heralded tales.

The final part of 'In Plain Shite' is a prime example. A simple face off between Finny and a mob of 6, with 3 bullets in his gun. Dabnett weaves a glorious short, self contained, detailed, sharply constructed piece of combat, In doing so he shows quite why Ray and Finny are so good, something taken for granted fo so long to give fresh view of these long lived stars of 2000ad. He then rolls the main over arching plot on and thrusts us forward, closing off the 5 part 'In Plain Shite' and without missing a beat setting up the next story 'Last Rights'. In five pages its the perfect self contained story. The perfect end to a story. The perfect bridging episode to a new story. The perfect continuation of the of the ongoing story.

We then move without missing a beat into that next story. A scene shift. A fresh take and yet a conhesive whole.

The whole thing has a beautifully cohesive art style, even though duties are shared between John Burns and Simon Davis - the new setting of 'Last Rights' a story that I think is his last work on the characters (???). Just as Steve Yeowell brings the same to Bulletopia. Yet there seems to be something dragging the latters artistic genius back on the new story. Especially when you compare it to the brilliant work he did on all his early Sinister Dexter work.

As Self Absorbed YNWA gets closer to NuYNWA there is always this danger of comparing between the two. In this instance I shouldn't. It under plays what a fantasticly structured, brilliantly executed tale Witless Protection is, in its own right. Self Absorbed loved it for it own sake. NuYNWA loved it for its own sake and both invite you to re-read it an reevaluate your wrong headed views that Sinister Dexter should be assigned to the past.

Far from it, its still bang on target.


* I'm sure many who hold these 2000ad is rubbish these days are lovely in so many ways... they probably just bumped their head at some point and think modern long form telly isn't as good as when like [insert time when they were 18]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 16 January, 2021, 06:36:54 PM
The problem with the current Sin/Dex series is mostly not its own making but rather a scheduling issue. The main problem with this is that it does not read 100% coherent and a few episodes we had was almost a recap rather than pushing the story forward. For me Sin/Dex is Abnett's weakest entry I would rather him focus on more The Out and Brink. I also would like to see the return of both Kingdom and Grey Area. So yes, I understand the love of a long running series but sometimes you have to put something to bed. Sin/Dex is not a bad strip and I always find a readable, but I would really like Abnett to give the story a proper send-off (one which such a long running strip deserves).
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 17 January, 2021, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 16 January, 2021, 06:36:54 PM
For me Sin/Dex is Abnett's weakest entry I would rather him focus on more The Out and Brink. I also would like to see the return of both Kingdom and Grey Area. So yes, I understand the love of a long running series but sometimes you have to put something to bed. Sin/Dex is not a bad strip and I always find a readable, but I would really like Abnett to give the story a proper send-off (one which such a long running strip deserves).

Yep - at this point Sin/Dex is by far Abnett's weakest still-running creation (a testament to his evolution as a writer). As you say, I'd happily take a new series of The Out, Brink, Lawless, Kingdom or Grey Area - literally any of them - over yet more Sin/Dex, which feels a bit written-for-the-sake-of-it these days.

Sorry Colin!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 17 January, 2021, 12:33:53 PM
One of the biggest problems a writer faced is how to end a story (especially when it has been ongoing for more than 25 years). Abnett has involved into one of the best comic-book writers out there. He creates interesting worlds with interesting characters. I see that we will get more of Feral and Foe after the current batch of stories. This is another one of those interesting new editions to Abnett's already  strong resume.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 January, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
I've long held onto this video where Dan Abnett talks about his favourite things (writing wise) and sure its almost 12 years old and sure he's developed so many important and wonderful strips since then but in my head he still holds to what he says around the 2 minute mark, which gives me faith much as many disagree I'll always have it and you folks are alas stuck with it.

https://youtu.be/91bn5VLYlEM (https://youtu.be/91bn5VLYlEM)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 17 January, 2021, 01:03:45 PM
Personally I don't see how or why Sinister Dexter 'needs' an end. The 4 or 5 long-running story arcs it's had aside (Eurocrash/Downlode Tales, ...Dumb Minions/Malone, War of the Moses, Generican Dream, The AIs Have It*), its real strength is as a vehicle for stylish, witty tales. It's not like it's ever been a grand narrative, or even a character journey - its just amusing violent situations, two charming psychopaths & their associates, and excruciating puns.

If people really have had enough of that (I haven't) then it can just wrap up current plot lines and stop. For a while, or forever, whichever way Dan sees fit. Killing off a strip that's never aspired to be one overall story seems... wasteful

There's no need, or really even a place, for a grand finale, or even a conclusion. A conclusion to what? We wouldn't ask it of Dennis the Menace, we didn't ask it of Calvin & Hobbes.

Personally I just want to see the strip given a good long run, but I accept that may not be a majority position.


*NB: may not be actual name, but I mean everything after the boys returned from Generica/another reality.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 17 January, 2021, 01:06:14 PM
EDIT: Oops, just watched Colin's link. Well, most of my ramble is unaffected...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 17 January, 2021, 01:23:39 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 17 January, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
I've long held onto this video where Dan Abnett talks about his favourite things (writing wise) and sure its almost 12 years old and sure he's developed so many important and wonderful strips since then but in my head he still holds to what he says around the 2 minute mark, which gives me faith much as many disagree I'll always have it and you folks are alas stuck with it.

https://youtu.be/91bn5VLYlEM (https://youtu.be/91bn5VLYlEM)

Quite an interesting interview. I rather have him still scripting for AD than not even if he continues Sin/Dex for the next 25 years.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 January, 2021, 05:25:47 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Into Prog - 1850 Part 1 - Dredd

There's a lot going on with the line -up running up to Prog 1850. We get the third and final stories of both Age of the Wolf and Ten-seconders, we get The books of Scars, we get Defoe. I'm going to talk about a few of these as I take one of my traditional breaks - this time to read more Grendel and some old(ish) Shadow comics. The first thing i want to talk about though is something I almost over looked...

... see sometimes I'm guilty of taking Dredd for granted. Its there, its normally good, its often great and at times its exceptional. When you get great Dredd I'm guilty of not commenting on it much, cos you know its Dredd, its often great. For some reason the run of thrills up between 1837 and 1849 - which is all great (not exceptional) has struck a cord though. There are three very different stories

Wasteland - By Wagner and Dave Taylor in which a billionaire believes he can out fox the judges using a web of contacts to mask his murderous attempts to better a property deal - the property being block isolated in the post Day of Chaos wasteland (of the title).

Savengers - By Rob Williams and Carl Critchlow in which a squad of judges dive in to the submerged ruins of Luna City 2. The crashed God City from Trifecta, as confliciting sides try to take control of its aresenl and a  sensitive klegg comes to Dredd's aid.

Bender by Wagner and Willsher - a cross over with Futrama in which crew from Planet Express nose dive into Mega City One and... alas no - that's a crossover I would pay to see. In this case Bender is a hard judge pushed over the edge and his straight and true new partner back from injury. The of course come into messy conflicit with each other.

Okay so there's a lot of Wagner, but that's not the only reason these stories stood out to me. I think one of the key things is that these tales all deal with sold Dredd tropes, but do it very well. Wasteland returning to the ways the Justice Department and particularly Dredd, use their wily ways to crack organised crime. Often helped by the simple arrogrance of the crimelords

Second in Savengers we get a crack squad influtraing and combat situation, meeting and interesting charater lost in the middle and Dredd comes out.

Finally Bender - the classic bent cop going to far and becoming an over violent law unto themselves.

All these tropes are given fresh life by their respective creators. Particularly the ending of Bender which plays with the more vulernable Dredd we've seen from DoC forward. The ability of the series to support exciting stories, even when immersed in old ideas, is testament to its brilliant thrilling concept and world that's been created over the years. The fact that each of these well trodden roads is testament to the creators that work with him. The fact that William's story is as successful as Wagners' testament to the folly of the idea that no one but Wagner should write the character - not that Wagner's take is brilliant and consummate. The fact that three great Dredd stories is something I'm in danger of taking for granted is testament to how much wonderful stuff we've had over the years and how many wonderful thrill Tharg has in his locker these days.

I should also make reference to the wonderfully diverse art. Taylor, Critchlow and Willsher are all on top of their form. What's more impressive is how each strip seems hand picked for the strip they do. Taylor all cityscapes and lurid charatcers. Critchlow a crocked broken, world hidden beneath other world depth full of monsters. Willsher anger, agression and violent energy. Its almost as if the editor's been doing this for years and knows his stuff perfectly!

The other sign of the embarrassment of richs we have playing in Tharg's kingdom is this is just great Dredd not exceptional Dredd!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 17 January, 2021, 05:40:06 PM
Can I just add my name to the people who would find it very displeasing were SiniDex to end. And further, with the probable upcoming (or already seen) end to Slaine, The ABC Warriors, Savage, Defoe, Flesh, etc, I would suggest 2000AD needs SiniDex more than ever. For continuity at the very least.

Would I prefer more The Out, Kingdom, Feral & Foe, Grey Area over SiniDex? No- I want them all. Someone needs to arrange for Dabnett to have a 'leaky superglue in his back pocket accident'* while sitting in his cubicle.

SBT

*at least that's what I told my wife it was after we bumped into Mr Abnett last time.
 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 January, 2021, 05:42:32 PM
Quote from: sintec on 16 January, 2021, 01:24:37 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 January, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 16 January, 2021, 12:37:19 PM
It really is about time we get some of the 3rillers collected, isn't it?

Did I dream that had happened? Was it in one of the floppies?

Not a dream, the floppy with Meg 403 collected:

  • In Seconds Flat
  • Station To Station
  • Apocalypse Anonymous
  • Mindmines

I keep wondering if a book of these in the Ultimate Collection might be a thing. They seem like a perfect candidate.

And Meg 371 had:


And Meg 382 had:


And Meg 383 had Voodoo Planet.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 January, 2021, 05:47:37 PM
And Sinister Dexter did end, in 2011:

(https://i.imgur.com/6v1iUZ5.png)


Then they did find their way back. So, if you want to know what the ending was like, it was already written.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 17 January, 2021, 05:57:20 PM
Book of Scars Path three was this the last time that Mike did art duties in prog and I am not talking about covers (he did a cover in 2018 for prog 2079)?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 17 January, 2021, 06:02:17 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 January, 2021, 05:47:37 PM
And Sinister Dexter did end, in 2011:

(https://i.imgur.com/6v1iUZ5.png)


Then they did find their way back. So, if you want to know what the ending was like, it was already written.

For the 25 year celebration it was a bit different (so if you have not read up until this part do not scroll down):








(https://i0.wp.com/www.comicon.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2000-AD-2200-00016a.jpg?resize=768%2C525&ssl=1)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 January, 2021, 09:12:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Book 3 is the magic number

As we run into 1850 two books with checked pasts (for different reasons) hit there third and final books. Both of which are by far the best of the series to date. Age of the Wolf III - Wolfworld is solid. Its not great, but its continues well what this series has done of flipping to completely different points of the tale. In fact its structured like Ghostship Mathematica. Each element feels fresh and its own. Just each book of Age of the Wolf hasn't felt entirely successful. I'm not quite sure why, there's nothing wrong with it persay it just feels a little loose and uninspiring. Which given its ingrediants of a post apocolyptic werewolve horror is pretty surprising. I have to be honest while John Davis-Hunt art is the best its been, but it doesn't sell things to me. It doesn't feel whole and convincing. I do worry that detracts from the story.

Ten-seconders - Godsend on the other hand is an almost perfect ending. After a decent start, a very rocky middle the ending - with the stakes in this superheroes as impossibly powerful and violent alien invaders, somehow raised up and then some. It feels like an entirely superlative, meladramatic, hyper-reality ending to it all. Rob Williams manages to do what Jack Kirby did so very well in the work he wrote himself. He blasts your imagination apart with his ultra-reality mindbending concepts. Yet manages to ground it all with down to earth with gritty and seemingly real characters who make all the God spinning cosmicness feel important and human.

The real star though is Edmund Bagwell in what I think tragically is his last work for Tharg. He managers to convey all that. All the mindbending Kirbyesque Hyper-reality uberwonder and he grounds it with real, tight, earthed characters. Rob Williams might give him the stuff to draw in the script, but I simply can't imagine almost any, if any artist who could deliver it quite as well as Bagwell. Its one of 2000ad's most astonishing art jobs. Yet we don't talk about it. I'm not sure why. We talk about Cradlegrave and the brilliance of his world there - quite rightly. We talk about Indigo Prime and the brilliance of his inter-dimenions there - quite rightly. We really should, absolutely talk about this strip where he, to my absolute amazement, manages to perfectly combine his brillance on both those very different strips here.

Oh of course this is Ten-Seconders so there are artistic hiccups - see you book 2 - as Ben Wilsher does a solid job of keeping the train moving for two episodes towards the end. But Edmund Bagwell's work here - even given that - is some of the best ever to grace the Prog.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 January, 2021, 09:34:58 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

BUMP smmmooothhhhh BUMP smmooothhhh BUMP

The title tries to capture what reading the last run of thrill of 2013 is like. The nuGolden Age hits some bumps in the road.

ITS THE END! THE PROG HAS BEEN IN DECLINE SINCE DANTE ENDED!

I hear some commentators cry - and POPPYCOCK is my response. Well of course everyone is entitled to hold that view. Anyone can genuinely mean it and feel that is the case... but I can still cry POPPYCOCK!!!

Lets examine the evidence of why this is poppycock. The tail end of 2013 is one of the weakest line-ups since I declared NuGolden Age.

Dredd - there's some decent Dredd, but its not mind blowing as Mike Carroll and Paul Davidson bring Joyce Jr along for a trip to the Underworld to fight the Goblin King and T C Eglington and Karl Richardson take us to some monstrous goings on in a relief camp. Its fine. Dredd can so often be so much more than that though.

Flesh - Badlanders - I've long defended this latter day Flesh. I mean its cowboys vs dinosaurs you have to try to make that not work for me. But everyone seems pretty much like they are running out of steam here. James McKay starts to get art assists as I believe he's being run off the strip - which is a shame as I love this art. Uncle Pat is slipping increasingly in Millsisms I for one am getting more and more tired of. The script makes its feel increasingly like the dinosaurs and cowboys are getting in the way with Pat's polemics and he's having to lever things into to keep it on track. I track he likes and I don't. Such a shame.

Damnation Station - Now this strip is a problem for me. I don't like it. the trouble is I feel bad for not liking it as I appreciate its a smart, fresh way to tell a tale. I just find it obtuse and it doesn't gell at all. I want to like this. I try to like this but as I read it I drift and its finer points bounce of a shield of lack of engagement. The thing is I know smarter folk than me love this and if that kinda strip is the biggest problem in a lull in the NuGolden Age then the NuGolden Age is in far better shape that the Original Golden Age!

Aquila - Where all roads lead Another one I want to like more. I mean like cowboys and dinosaurs a story set in Empirial Rome is a slam dunk for me and i don't dislike this at all... it just... doesn't engage me the way it should. Its pretty good, its okay... it should be GREAT.

There's a 3riller with Jesus Redondo art - wayhey - and a decent story by Robert Murphy (don't think we see him again?) but nothing compared to some of these short but sweet tales we've had of late.

Then there's Brass Sun magnificent Brass Sun. Wren, Septimus and Ramkin are the perfect atypical 2000ad cast, grumpily avoiding any of the comics tropes. The world's they inhabit are fantastic rich and alive with co-stars of equal quality. This is a simply magnificent thrill and as Wren touchs a soul we get then building blocks of what's to come all in place. Christ I miss this thrill.

So yeah still got three issues to read which I suspect will get increasingly fillered as we run the year down (we'll see). There's nothing terrible here. All the strips have at least redemning features - its just really weak compared to what we've got used to. But as someone said here if this quality of thrill is what we get when we've in a lull we are in magnificent shape overall.

End of the new age Poppycock!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 January, 2021, 09:20:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2013

QuoteI see 2013 likely to be a bit of a transition year. I don't think it will be the best. I don't think it will be of the standard of the last four, but I'm not convinced it will mark the end of the Golden Age, it will mark a low point in the golden age, but a pretty damned high low point and one that its easy to bounce back from.

And there we have it. That feels about right. While 2013 isn't as strong as some recent years it is still full of highs and the lows aren't that low. Its just compared to recent years it feels like a drop off. Not much of one, but its there. Its hard to be precise as to why. Dredd may not be quite as strong. We miss a very strong Dante. The big event of Slaine's 30th is a bit of a none  - so much so that Book of Scars hasn't even merited mention.

While newer thrills continue to shine a few end. Zombo sadly drifts of and in Red Seas 2000ad loses another staple. That's fine we have the replacements lined up, but they won't be as regular and dependable. There's nothing to hang 2013 on. There is nothing to define it. Its a good year in thrillpower but its not a great year. I won't be debating whether its the best year ever. It won't make that list.

But it is a good year and if this is the Prog in decline that it shows what heights we have climbed to. Very few year prior to 2005 will have been this strong. Even if 2014 continues like this we are absoutely fine. If this is the new normal then so be it. Its nothing to get too excited about, which after recent years may well be the problem.

I think 2014 will be much the same. It will be variable. There will be some great highs. The lows will be there but I suspect they will be sparce. We dipped - a little - and I think 2014 will see us plateau. One sign might be how many brand new thrills we have. The absolute peak of the NuGoldenAge has been in part driven by innovation and this phase seems to be more about stablisation as some things wrap up. Let's see.

We're still gold, but maybe even gold is now feeling a bit tired and old?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 30 January, 2021, 03:10:56 AM
Zombo never really ended ? Not my favourite but the art from Flint with all the strangest was quite something to behold.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 February, 2021, 09:17:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Free Comic Book Day - Catch up

Dear reader I've been remiss, I have let you down. I try to cover all issues, special, annual etc in my collection. Alas however I've missed some and so I catch up here. 2000ad joined Free Comic Book Day (FCBD) in 2011 (I believe) and as such those issues should have been covered here, in their right place. Well let me make that up to you now.

Firstly lets talk about the way 2000ad approaches FCBD generally. Let's be honest all approachs to FCBD are to maximise the marketing opportunity, not just to the comic book shops that the industry depends on, but for the company that sell them their wares in them. So we have that to consider these comics are marketing tools. Now I have no insight into how marketing works but I pick any number of these comics ever year and I can say that 2000ad's issues are by far the most handsome - a hardcopy I got of Mouseguard one year aside. A few Marvel and DC comics I've picked over the years have had a better proportion of new content that the 2000ad ones, but they rarely, if ever seem to quite grasp the opportunity the way the FCDB progs do. Other comics have the feel of obligation rather than opportunity. As if some companys feel they have to be involved - and so throw something in, but not with the clear sense of pride the 2000ad issues do.

Though again I say this from a position of ignorance and with no understanding of the costs and budgets involved. It may well be to a comic like 2000ad this opprotunity to showcase your wares to the US market (for which these seem to be made, understandably) is of far more value than others. 2000ad has a wealth of content to offer in the US, but very little awareness - at least in comparison to many titles and companies. So the opportunity to get a free comic under thousands of folks noses is something that needs to be grasped and grasped well.

These comics do that, even though they are largely reprint they are high quality, well selected reprint and when original material appears its general well crafted stuff. These comics feel like free comics, rather than the promotional pamphlets much of what you see on FCBD does. They feel substansial, others feel flimsy.

I've three to quickly review here, 2011, 2012 and - yep you guessed it 2013.

2011

The first dip of the toe is fronted by a handsome Jock cover - a good choice at this time given the impact of his Batman covers at this time. Its starts with a fantastic Tharg story from Kev O'Neill frm Prog 20summit. Its fun, and has the right irreverance to give folks a real sense of Tharg's wares. The rest is largely well selected reprint, including opening episodes of Kingdom and Shakara - followed by direct adverts for relevent trades. Its Prog sized (dimensions and page count) and is rounded off with a fantastic Obmoz original Twinkie parody which is perfect fodder for the comic book fan.

Its a good start.

2012

Another Jock cover, this time specifically commissioned - this one is the same dimensions as last year but steps things up. This time as well as the well targeted reprint, rolling out bigs names such as A. Moore, C. Weston, S. Dillon amongst many others there is perfectly pitched original Dredd by Wagner and Rufus Dayglo. Together they craft a Dredd that in only 4 pages introduce so much about Dredd, his job and world. Its really very good. Again a handsome well considered package which steps up from the previous year's.

2013

Sees another step up. This time a glorious Henry Flint cover - with some pitch perfect triplet of covers parodying classic America comic covers fronts an even more substancial issue. At 48 Prog sized pages this one jumps off the shelves and just looks wonderful. Inside we get two original stories. Dredd 'Jimps Club' uses the concept of pretend Judges to set up and explain the real thing and Matt Smith and Ben Wilsher do a good job, if not quite as good as the previous years. The reprint is again well selected and aimed right with big names and a heady mix of story types, from Insurrection to Visible Man. It really nicely showcases the range of the comic.

It wraps up with a fantastic 4 page Zombo story that perfectly presents the comics violent, anarkic, smart and witty edge. Iyts great stuff and this issue is an absolute triumph.

So there you have it these comics work well as promotional tools. They also each offer a little something for more experienced readers and are really quite lovely little treats.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 08 February, 2021, 09:35:18 PM
Because spreadsheets are my friends, I have noted down the number of fresh (i.e. non-reprint) strip pages in each FCBD:

2011: 1 (Obmoz)
2012: 4 (Dredd)
2013: 11 (Dredd & Planetronix)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 February, 2021, 09:36:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Starting 2014 with questions

Prog 2014, probably the weakest end of year giant to date does at least pose some questions that we didn't know we needed answers too. What happened to Harris after the end of Ten Seconders - the answer he appeared in a story nowhere near as interesting as the ending the series proper left us with. This was a beautifully rendered mistake, wrapping up things we didn't need wrapped.

Why hasn't PJ Holden done more Sinister Dexter - answer is I dunno?

Can you make Tharg so snarky he becomes utterly unlike about - the answer yes, yes you can... there are others but the ones that interest me most are those that run into the opening line-up of 2014.

Just how grim has Johnny Alpha become since he was ressurrected? And the anwser is 980790 grim on the Matt Murdock Scale. Turns out that though is a story I want to read.

How much back story can one Mills fill if the backstory can be filled? The answer - all too much backstory it would seem. I remember liking 'Return to Mars' when first reading it - here I'd just left questioning what purpose its serving? I do hope I shake that as Langley's art is perfect still and I want to like this. We'll see.

Was Ulysses Sweet only used for 3 parts back in the day cos it had limited appeal and as a character he would become grating after a short period of time... and the answer... is... well I don't know. See Ulysses Sweet didn't have any reason to come back and reading the episode on Prog 2014 was like eatting too much... well sweet stuff... each individual sweetie is lovely and yummy and you like it, have too many sweeties and it all gets a bit much and you start to not like the experience. How much is too many sweeties, well 10 pages it would seem. The trouble is even though I've had too many sweeties too often in the past, If I see the sweeties I still enjoy them. And chomp them down, even knowing its doing me no good. That's Ulysses Sweet that is.

The series 'Centred' is made up of lots of lovely parts, each of which tastes great and makes me think I want more. The trouble is I don't need more and after a while it leaves me with a slight headache. But I like the inidividual treats I still get excited for more when I see it. Its a fully ol' thing and leaves me wondering how I'll feel about it when I get to the end. Shoddy and silly for doing this to myself, all all excited from the sugary goodness?

Dredd and Grey Area ask nice questions, but like Strontium Dog in the good way. Especially Dredd - that starts the magnificent 'Titan'. Its a smart insight into the character, and the impact of 'Day of Chaos' though I do question if the extreme ending I seem to recall will wipe away that goodness.

We'll see, after all you can have too much in a good thing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 February, 2021, 09:24:36 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Is there life after death?

The Life and Death of Johnny Alpha has been an interesting beast and its conclusion in Chapter 4 - 'Dogs of War' is an equal curiosity. Life and Death of Johnny Alpha started really nicely with the narrative casting doubt on much of what had been told and there what was being told. I loved that structural tool but if drifted away.

At the end it returned, but before that it turned into a more traditional thrilling adventure / war tale. Well traditional if the protagonist has been left as dark as he was during 'Rage' the ultimate revenge thriller and the dark spirit that had possessed him is removed as an 'excuse'. Johnny leading mutant army in open rebellion again is as dark as he's ever been. Deliciously wicked villains allow you to understand Johnny's murderous rage... or was it that unreliable narrator which allows us to us what we want for our story and our Johnny.

The action is tense and thrilling and the war fair rattles on... and then kinda runs out of steam. Its reads to me like John Wagner wrote himself into a corner, wasn't quite sure where to take things and so wrapped it up in two episodes losing the meat on the bones of the story. It read like and ending just to end things. But then at that end we get that unreliable narration that casts doubt on what Johnny's ultimate fate was.

NuYNWA knows Johnny comes back, to be honest Self-Absorbed YNWA was pretty damned confident he would too. It just left the point of all that drama at excitment a little in the air. Still it was a thrilling tale if one, even on re-read I can't quite tell what it was trying to do, or where it was taking things... well yeah bringing Johnny back but that didn't need 40 episodes. I'm really intrigued to get to the next story now, but only in the context of trying to understand what this story was doing.

Elsewhere ABC Warriors completely raises an even more definitive question of why that story exists.

Grey Area isn't good, but not quite great yet, but Patrick Goddard kicks ass on the art.

Dredd - Titan is hard and interesting but doesn't quite deserve review without the next part to round things off. Its is half a story.

And I couldn't quite help but love Ulysses Sweet despite the fact I think it should drive me nuts.

This is a fascinating run, even if nothing quite satisfies entirely - well almost everything - has something to offer.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 February, 2021, 09:42:46 PM
That weird possession thing was brushed under the carpet after a few episodes, which did feel as if it wasn't really working so well and had to be removed.

The "war crimes are okay because we're the goodies" part of things has been shuffled away by the time the adventures start up again.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 11 February, 2021, 02:43:57 AM
The Life and Death of Johnny Alpha story arc was not my favourite. They should have just told Alpha and Wulf stories before boths dies cases they did together rather than trying to bring Johnny back.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 February, 2021, 09:04:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Oh so we get a job on Prog with a montage cover (a beautiful one) in Prog 1874. But I'm getting ahead of myself as I've not read it yet. The jump on has kinda sprung out the blue, but I guess I should have seen it coming. With the first line-up be an interesting near miss we then get lots of decnt filler. A 3riller for filler, Terror Tales and one off and short Dredds (including a nice epilogue to Titan in Prog 1873), Future Shocks. Around these ABC Warriors lumbers on, Grey Areas continues to be near great. So its been a slow start to the year.

After the slow end to last year I'm beginning to see where these rumours of an end to the NuGolden Age come from Let's see what the new line-up brings before we get carried away though.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 February, 2021, 09:52:01 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

New angry things

The line up that kicks off in Prog 1874 really shouldn't work, but by George it does somehow. Well okay we have a dark and imposing Dredd by Wagner and MacNeil in 'Mega City Confidential' and and energetic and punchy Sinister Dexter in 'Gun Shy'. But the rest of the strips shouldn't work.

Simon Davis' earthy and worn art revitalises Slaine in the first 'Brutania Chronicles' a 'Simple Killing'. His art seems to inspire Uncle Pat into an examination of a Slaine carrying the weight and baggage of the last 30 years of adventure and in doing so making him interesting again. The art is a Slaine not from a Games Workshop poster, instead its tone and feel is much more in keeping with the early Mike McMahon art, down to earth, grounded and hard. Its an absolute revelation. One I do wonder how long it will last however.

Then we get to new strips that should have real problems, but don't. Both Jaegir and Outlier on the surface seem to fall into that early 90s trap of having gruff, hard boiled leads in grim and gritty worlds. They both demonstrate different ways of avoiding that making for a bad strip and infact I really like both.

Jaegir when it first came out really took a while to sink in with me. Love it now, but much like GRennie's other recent (in self absorber terms) strip Absalom it took me a few stories to get into. I think that's because it took me a while to get past the trappings of the story that didn't immediately appeal to me. My problem not the strips. Now having done that as I reappraoch both these strips in reread I'm finding myself really enjoying them from the off.

Jaegir is a hard soldier, in the hard landsape of NuEarth and the surrounding conflicit. There's barely a chink of light and hope to be seem. Unlike those early 90s characters that drag down so many of the stories of that era though she immediately becomes interesting and sympathetic. Her clear issues with her father, their struggles to find her place in a brutal world really work. The action is hard, the character is hard, but that line of vulnerability makes the whole thing work perfectly.

Oh and speaking of perfect Simon Coleby brutal art was made for this strip.

Outlier is a strip that didn't seem to impress many folks. It got three books (as I recall) but that didn't to a trade, rather a quick turn around to a floppie with the Meg. Such a shame. The thing is I can kinda see why. Again its a hard world, filled with hard character and barely a chink of light and hope to be seen. We have a grim and hard boiled detective being used to track down a seemingly murderous monster. The monster is on a brutal mission of revenge, having been abandoned to some unseen alien horrors - The Horde and transformed in torturious experiements into a living weapon. To seemingly escape and hunt down those that abandoned him and a few others to their terrible fate.

I think the reason it works is we quickly learn that the hardboiled detective isn't the character with whom we're meant to have sympathy. We're not following his adventure, we are following the monster and learning why his terrible mission of revenge is justified... well justified in 2000ad terms. And it does that wonderful 2000ad trick (see Kano) of giving us a monster to support by making the things he's fighting even more monsterous.

I'm really enjoying this and suspect I will until it finishes down the road.

So yeah these strips seem to learn the lessons of the 90s, you can have hard and grim, humourless protagonists, but use them well, imbue them with enough humanity and the strip can be utterly elevated.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 20 February, 2021, 11:06:54 AM
Outlier was good piece of sci-fi maybe not the best but I still enjoyed it. Agree would be nice of all 3 volumes are collected in one big collection. Jaegir for me is the best strip of the Rogue-verse. This is a story that I would like to featured more in the prog but now and then it gets a measly 6 parts only.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 February, 2021, 09:07:11 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Just a quick update(s)

1. Outlier ends really well and I'm really looking forward to the turns it takes when it returns.As I recall it spins things into a presently unexpected direction.

2. We get some great 3rillers dropping in after Jaegir finishes. Both 'Colony' - red plague in a Siberian work camp and 'In Seconds Flat' man develops time machine and lives with himself until aliens come... have a real Future Shock vibe about them. Well the latter is a Time Twister isn't it. But they both really work.

3. I skipped Traumatown when it popped into this months Meg knowing it was coming up here soon. Well its here and its great twisty mystery in true Dredd style.

4. So Sinister Dexter, Jaegir and Outlier switch out for now - the strength of the squad comes to the fore as alongside the 3rillers providing superior fillers we get Indigo Prime and Grey Area step up to the plate. So we're more than all good. Especially as this is just as Grey Area makes the step up from good to great.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 February, 2021, 08:59:01 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 February, 2021, 09:07:11 PM
4. So Sinister Dexter, Jaegir and Outlier switch out for now - the strength of the squad comes to the fore as alongside the 3rillers providing superior fillers we get Indigo Prime and Grey Area step up to the plate. So we're more than all good. Especially as this is just as Grey Area makes the step up from good to great.

Then the wonderous Indigo Prime - Perfect Day finishes and Brass Sun fills the gap. For Slaine we get more Sinister Dexter. We get Wagner Dredd in - swapping places with Rob Williams and Chris Weston giving us more Sensitive Klegg. We get some truly fantastic Time Twisters and Terror Tales as well. Some more good 3rillers... oh and The Order has just appeared in Thrills of the Future.

And I was worried about a bump or two in the road!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 March, 2021, 09:23:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

I didn't comment on the run in to Prog 1900. I meant to and the focus was meant to be the magnificent Brass Sun as Floating World - the third series completed a brilliant run. The action ramped up, Arthur the golden doombot landed and alas we lose Ramkin in a plesently Doctor Who companion leaving way. Its been a blast.

The rolling line up of quality dips a little. The introduction of viking werebeast saga Black Shuck and the return of Aquilia not quite able to keep up the quality, but they are hardly bad.

Anyway then we get to

Prog 1900

and an old beef of mine. A big launch Prog, a shiny cover, even a text feature celebrating those big round number Progs. The thrills, well its top notch stuff. Wagner and Ezquerra on Dredd. Stickeback and Kingdom return and... and... oh hold on...

That's it. Three thrills. Admittedly three superb thrills but The Galaxys Greatest biggest strength is its depth of quality and its variety and to only showcase three thrills to new readers is such a shame. Its an old and personal beef, but when Grey Area and  Ichabod are the thrills coming in next issue its not like Tharg has anything to be ashamed of. Those five thrills are a superb line-up fully demonstrating the great variety and Tharg's Thrill Arsenal.

Why not whip it all out for the big thrusting launch issue, huh Tharg. Don't be shy there's nothing to be ashamed of here. Your fully engauged thrill cavalcade is a thing of beauty, don't let these big number, big draw issues go off half cocked huh!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 March, 2021, 09:14:50 PM
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Prog 1909 - Explosive Endings

I was curious on rereading 1909 with its two very different endings, both with BIG explosions what I'd have thougth of those two read in real time. Not that I'd have changed that much, rather the experience of reading them week to week, rather in the compressed manner of a re-read.

To be honest I had no concerns about the ending to Kingdom 'Aux Drift' it was just classic, big hard, thrilling action. The explosion engulfing all, casting Gene aside just enough to save him as a giant Them was shattered. I won't say it was big dumb fun, but it offered all the thrillpower it was going to on first reading. I say that not as a slight its what Kingdom does very, very well. Its an absolute classic thrill and I loved this then and now.

It was the end to Dredd - Block Judge that I feared would throw me. While it was clearly and wonderfully foreshadowed it still blow what had gone before away and fired out of leftfield to end the strip abruptly and suddenly while ending nothing. I shouldn't have doubted Self Absorbed YNWA he got it fine. Well in fact I shouldn't have doubted the masters John Wagner and Carlos Ezquerra. They give us all we need week to week and in re-read.

Here's what I said 6 (and a bit) years ago now.

QuoteWhat a stonking Prog. Two endings so brilliantly contrasting in one particular way, what they foretell. Kingdom reachs an explosive conclusion and while the episode is all bang the ending promises... well an ending. I wonder if the next story will be the last, what with Rich Elson being so busy elsewhere. It certainly makes a significent change and I personally can't wait for this superb strip to return... or more likely will have to but will do so willingly knowing it will be back.

Dredd too reaches its explosive conclusion and its quite, quite brilliant. The contrast though is that Dredd makes it clear it will never end, his struggle goes on and he does too. His reaction to the dramatic conclusion throw me a little I have to say. He took it all so matter of fact, too matter of fact maybe. Has he seen so much that even that, after all that work begs no reaction, just turn round and get to work. Have events of the last few years hardened him so much? Am I just expecting too much from it all and he reacted exactly as he should... that's how I think it goes to be honest but I found it fascinating and loved the whole thing.

Spot on old boy (well younger boy).

What's great is on this read I got the more explicit point I missed, or at least failed to comment on before. Wagner and Ezquerra don't give us one thing they layer it and so unlike the brlliant Kingdom and I got another point. That's not to say it was sutly tucked away. Far from it. Rather its exposed more clearly when Block Judge is read as one. The endless fight against crime, sure. But the point its making really is for all of Dredd and co's relentless battle against organised crime, their rigourous persecution of crimelords, to the extent it even stretched Hershey's - then Chief Judge - patience and brought early signs of tension between the two coming back to the fore. Anyway yeah for all that - for all the brutal twisted war against brutal twisted men and women in Mega City One it isn't enough. They'd won, they'd beated the crimelords, but this is Mega City One all it takes is one deluded crazy and all that is undone.

Its quite, quite brilliant. Then and now.

Oh and while we're at it I said this as well

QuoteSo much so in fact that it gets thrill of the week even over Ichabod and his title of blarh blarh blarh lots and lots of words blarh blarh blarh blarh. Which was quite brilliant too... as was Greysuit heck even Sticklebrick which I've struggled with again, was superb this week, quite an eye openner.

Possibly Prog of the year that... which I can't back up or haven't thought about, but boy if it wasn't...

Yep 1909 as explosive thrilling then as it is now.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 March, 2021, 09:03:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)



So this run (and indeed the year) end with three thrills, just as it started. When the run started in issue 1900 at least those three thrills packed a real punch. Here at the end not so much... well yes there is moments and I for one like Greysuits - for me its Uncle Pat that still works but over all its not as strong as this excellent run has been.

Ichabod had ended in 1910 and its a fine conclusion with Rob Williams just full going for the nature of narrative full on, in your face. Its strong, strong stuff with wonderful art my Michael Dowling. Of course the all powerful marrator means that when the blood is spilled we are still able to get a happy ending... even if it the 'truth' or not.

1911 though wraps up the year and Stickleback in many ways should dominate the ending - London burns at the hands of three maidens and their monsterus army. Stickleback makes his grand reveal it all should be top billing. But I've found its meandered through all the drama, the momentum hasn't sustained and I've drifted and my interest ebbed and really while I know I should on re-read I just can't bring myself to care that much. Certainly not as much as all the drama seems to demand.

And then we wait 6 years to learn more!

I know many weren't fans of Greysuits but I enjoy it so much more than the rest of Uncle Pats fare around this period - except Savage - the reason is he's not trying to layer his disgust at the establishment in the way he thinly adds a veneer of robots and axes is his other strips. That veneer hides knowing and just serves to slighty obsure what we should be enjoying.

With Greysuits its just more honest and no less straightforward and all the more balls to the wall because of that. There are still Millsian daft moments, but its fun and caricature rather than weak metaphor. I look forward to the next book that wraps this up. Oh and John Higgins does so revel in his jaw smashing fetish.

These two are backed up with a pedestrian Dredd.

So while 1900 had three strips that really worked, 1911 just isn't as powerful and that exposes the weakness of a three thrill Prog. There's not as much to cover if you don't enjoy some of the main features.

Still this is hardly a terrible Prog and the year hasn't been smooth but when its shone, its shone... but that's for next time...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 March, 2021, 08:45:26 AM
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Specials and FCBD day 2014

Well the Free Comic Book Day issue is quite something. How there is anyone who picked this up and isn't not a Squaxx dek Thargo is beyond me. Unlike so much that comes out on FCBD this feels like a wonderful thing. It feels hefty, it has quality paper. It feels like something that's been taken great care over. And oh man that cover by Henry Flint is a stunner.

Of course there's a lot of reprint, but its well selected reprint that introduces characters and give good routes in. Let's face it most of the readers of this, certainly in the US won't of had the chance to have been exposed to 2000ad. The original content - which if I'm honest is better than anything in the specials this year which we pay for are a tense and thrilling Dredd that really pulls on the emotions while being brutal and action packed. A solid Durham Red with a name, all be it mini name US artist and a visually stunning Future Shock by no lesser light than Henry Flint (this one is new content right?).

Its all quite a spectacular thing and all for the princely sum of nowt!

The Specials make a return this year - which in itself is something to celebrate... even if the issues are very forgetable if I'm honest. Sci-Fi has a lacklustre Dredd, a middling Robo-Hunter, an okay Future Shock, a decent Durham Red, Orlok gets an outing before Jake Lynch became JAKE BLOOMIN' LYNCH and the Rogue Trooper looks shiny...ish...

I mean that's a good line up of characters and stories in theory, yet it ends up so forgettable.

Winter Special ain't much better if I'm honest. Same same Dredd, the Rogue Trooper looks shiny  from the wonderful Lee Carter but doesn't read as well as an interest concept might do. Alienist gets its first outing... which doesn't inspire. There is defo a Terror Tale and an episode of Defoe and a middling Anderson.

I mean that's a good line up of characters and stories in theory, yet it ends up so forgettable... why do I feel like I've said that before...???

What is great is there's new Specials and while they might not launch with a bang and something that Tharg gives away really rules the roost better things are to come as I recall so chin up and let's just celebrate having these back.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 10 March, 2021, 09:16:25 AM
One thing that I find quite unfortunately is that FCBD does exists where I stay (for that matter we do not even have comic book shops) . Every year I look at sad eyes of pictures of people grabbing the 2000AD FCBD comic.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 March, 2021, 09:27:13 PM
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2014

QuoteI think 2014 will be much the same. It will be variable. There will be some great highs. The lows will be there but I suspect they will be sparce. We dipped - a little - and I think 2014 will see us plateau. One sign might be how many brand new thrills we have. The absolute peak of the NuGoldenAge has been in part driven by innovation and this phase seems to be more about stablisation as some things wrap up. Let's see.

We're still gold, but maybe even gold is now feeling a bit tired and old?

Yep... I mean I could say more, but yep.

...

...okay a bit more. This year does have some stunning line-ups and a few poor one's. Where its arguably weakest is the new thrills, with the year marked by things either approaching or finally wrapping up. New thrills do start but they aren't really bih hitters with the exception of Jaegir - which if I'm honest I didn't enjoy immediately first time but settled straight into here. I personally really enjoyed Outlier as well, but I think its fair to say its not a big hit. Black Shuck, Ulysses Sweet are okay but both have issues. The reinvention of Slaine starts well but quickly drops off (much quicker than I remember), art aside. So not the best year, compared to recent ones.

On the way out, Grey Suits is close to the end, Stickleback dips out for 6 or more years, Ichabod ends, so gains to looses are shaky.

So yeah some great points but its not as high as the height of the NuGolden Age but we've hardly crashed out.

Still we stay at this level, or dip maybe we call it?

Next year 2015, though looks to be able this level, some great stuff but steady rather than golden. The Order kicks off, but not sure what new stuff we get aside from that. There will certainly be nothing wrong but the dulling of the gold might well continue.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 March, 2021, 09:22:25 PM
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The long and the short of it

2015 opens with a bang. Well not Prog 2015 which has much to like, a giant quiz for one, but once again is the embodiment of these annual Progs being what they are, big start of year Progs, rather than an brilliant Annual, something Special.

No the big bang is the interesting mix in the first line up. Its built of a lot of new stuff. The Order starts, and is excellent, but I'll come back to that. Savage has another great story, but I'll come back to that. The whole line up is built on Dark Justice and I'm sure I'll come back to that. Each of these has a good long run.

There are also two shorter thill, new(or new ish) thrills that have short runs. Ulysses Sweet get a second (and I'm pretty sure) final run. It remains a curious beast. High energy, forcing the fun, not really having any real purpose, or this time even a porpoise*. Yet it remains entertaining, a junk food comic. Sometimes, when in a balanced diet with other things, junk food if nice to have.

Alongside it is Orlok, getting a run out 'cos... 'cos... well why. Its certianly not bad. In fact its quite well constructed and at seven parts it certainly doesn't overstay its welcome. Its also welcomes the Red Queen, or La Reine Rouge (least I think this is where she first shows up) and she'll go onto things. It does some fun things. Its dark and bitter and lots of folks Die Hard... but just like Ulysses Sweet I'm not quite sure why its here and what it offers. Like a small sharp, rich desert it feels like it should offer more but once its gone, you might of enjoyed it, but its the main course you remember. Yet like junk food, along as you have those other things to balance its pleasent enough treat.

So yeah two fairly insubstance thrills BUT in the balanced diet that is this opening line-up they go down well enough, even if they won't really have a lasting impact.

*Yes I know porpoise are different to dolphins really
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 March, 2021, 06:02:51 PM
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The long then...

Well I guess that was the long AND the short of it was it, that was just the short of it, but a quiet afternoon has let me make real headway into the long. So let's start with the long established long. Savage Book 9 (!!!) - Grinders which wonderfully tackles the question what will Bill done when the Volgs have gone. Well he's a bitter, angry ball of rage, so he was never going to settle for the quiet life and this story fully exposes the villians who out villain the Volgs. Thee are much more Millsian villains and beautfiully juicy for that. As Howard Quartz, who we've known is a rotter, is wonderfully caught by Bill, apparently No Mute (its just like these days) in a video call, all gloriously played with suble art moments really selling it. Bill, of course, addresses the problems of our robotic overlords and those that create them and fascinatingly, at the same time those that oppose them. Bill is just bringing them all down. Its hard, villain, sad and thrilling.

Oh and throw in this long lost brother Jack, who Bill was pretending to be a one point. Alas as you might expect its not the  happy family reunion. His arrival though does retain this much more personal, up close conflicit we had last time, when the Volgs hit the peak of their humanification (its probably a word... right). Its a masterstroke so the more cliche, but deliciously so, villainy of Howie has a real balance and the whole things get a nice coating of pathos. To add to the pathos of Bill never being at peace if he naively continues a noble fight, trying to find the right side to fight with... or the pathos of the fact that we realise now Bill just needs the fight to keep going.

Its all wonderfully done and rendered immaculately by Partrick Goddard. Its shows that when the 'main' story is done, there can be so much more to explore if set up smartly and Unca Pat has been setting this all up for some time. Its shows that long form storytelling need not run out of steam. This is how Rogue Trooper could have continued, this how U Pat's other long over running tales Slaine and ABC Warriors might have sustained more successfully. This makes a mockery of the idea nMillsibobs having run out of juice... when he's got it, he's still up there with the very best and this 9th book of Savage, a long way into the game, shows just that... alas he's not always, if indeed ever, this good outside of Savage anymore.

Long form stories need a start too though and that is what we get with The Order making its first appearance in the opening line-up of 2015. Its funny reading The Order in these simpler times, when the plot wasn't so densely packed, the world so richly developed with layer building on layers and burying some (see Tordelback wonderful summary a while back if that's you, you nails the ins and out so well) - yep its funny reading this early story how straightforward it all feels. Its just cool characters and majestic (if smelly at times) mechanical men bashing the heck out of ghoulish monsters. Its brilliant stuff so wonderfully using John M Burns exquiste art to maximum impact.

What really makes this strip work though in re-read is how it too is laying foundations, right from there at the start of what we now know is a long run. Just as Pat and Patrick have been doing over on Savage, here Kek and John M B are laying little building blocks of what could come. If a future story hadn't materialised, no harm, they just added a depth to the world in this 'simple' first story. As it is though much of the throw away (seemingly) world building done in lines dotted here and there will come back to haunt some and for the rest of us raise this above and beyond many long running tales.

Read in and of itself however this is just a good ol' fashioned romp. Its action packed, its characters are fresh and exciting to the reader, if by a large a little old and tired in themselves. The villains vile monsters who don't need the development they will get. I see why I feel in love with this series right from the off, as it started with a very strong single story. I also see why I've loved this series in what has become a long haul. Its built in its longevity from the off and the fact that Kek W and John M Burns have managed to take this small building blocks and weave them into a very complex and rewarding world is one of the things I'm most looking forward to reading over this last stretch of my long slog.

See the long and the short of it is 2000ad is served by both long form and short form storytelling, this run is supported beautifully by a magnificent 3riller by Eddie Robson and Darren Douglas - Station to Station about the things that bind us and the things that try to drive us apart... oh and its a Patrick Toughtenesque batte in the subway. And a short Survival Geeks - which I'm enjoying so much more on re-read. 2000ad is the Galaxy Greatest as it doesn't have a form or a model, it just serves you good stories and has been doing so for a very long time.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 March, 2021, 07:04:41 AM
https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png (https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

The Long and the short of it - Dredd edition

While I've been pondering the differences in length of story across the Prog we've had a very interesting case in point over in Dredd. For the majority of the start of 2015 we've had the much advertised, highly praised 'Dark Justice' with us. John Wagner providing a showcase for Greg Staples lush and precise art and trying to revitalise the Dark Judges as dark, scary villains. And you know what it doesn't do a bad job at all.

I looked back at previous views I've had and I predicted this would work better read in a compacted time frame, and it does. I imagine it makes a lovely looking collected work as well. Greg Staples art is glorious, if not quite having the energy and vitality of my favourite art. The Dark Judges are served well, as ever most effectively when they are off panel. Given a world they can effectively destroy - the story is set on a massive colony ship cast into the stars - they can once again be triumphant and thus effective villains rather than the pantomine characters they'd become.

I've used the world effective or effectively a little too much there, as that's what this story is - its effective. Its good, but its not great (a poll going on elsewhere will determine how others feel about that!). It just feels like it has a job to do, being a stunning artistic achievement and rebirth for the Dark Judges and it does just that. It lacks however that magic element that makes it standout, it lacks a certain creative energy to make it truly special over its eleven parts, but its a good epic.

There's a one parter that immediately follows Dark Justice, 300 Seconds by Ian Edginton and Simon Coleby and I was looking forward to stumbling across it, though didn't realise it would land so perfectly timed. Its a tale of cadets being told about how Dredd becomes a sentinal once a day at one of Mega City Ones busiest intersection. And its simply magnificent. One of my all time favourite Dredds.

Why, well this simple tale, this deceptive masterclass, by two creators who've made their names elsewhere becomes almost a poem to Dredd and his relationship with the City. The details and specifics aren't precise, nor do they need to be. In this short simple tale the way the City views Dredd is perfectly, beautifully captured. Its still feels like a Dredd tale but its tone genuninely offers something fresh, as well as something very familar and it says so much.

Its final image, Dredd's boot prints worn into a viewing point he has stood on for years watching over this intersection the perfect metaphor for the way Dredd has stood over the city and left an indelible mark. Its surprisingly powerful.The fact that its his boots that leave the mark, the things that he wears tight to keep his control, as he keeps control shows the layers woven into this tight little thrill.

And there we have it a long form Dredd, that is good, lets be clear I like Dark Justice, but that doesn't necessarily offer anything new, rather tries to recapture old magic and a 6 page one off that genuinely offers something different and provides new magic. Which is more important, which is better, well we can debate that until the cows come home.What is important is that Dredd is still able to stand watch over the comic and offer different things, leaving his indelible mark on us all and still able to capture old magic and offer something new.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 March, 2021, 09:06:13 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Let's get this said and move on.

Its doesn't matter now much we love John Wagner and Carlos Ezquerra. It doesn't matter how much we want to enjoy something by them. Its doesn't matter how good the rest of the strip is, there was absoluely no excuse for the caricature of North Korean folks as seen in Stix Fix in this day and age. Its not the worst, maybe, be these are smart considered creators and they should have done better. North Korea might have a rubbish leadership and an attack on their politics and oppressive rule is more than welcome. When it starts to play fast a loose with physical sterotypes for cheap humour, well we've moved on and we'd moved on 2015.

I'm also annoyed at myself for not calling it out at the time. Rubbish of me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 21 March, 2021, 11:35:46 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 March, 2021, 09:06:13 PM
Its doesn't matter now much we love John Wagner and Carlos Ezquerra. It doesn't matter how much we want to enjoy something by them. Its doesn't matter how good the rest of the strip is, there was absoluely no excuse for the caricature of North Korean folks as seen in Stix Fix in this day and age. Its not the worst, maybe, be these are smart considered creators and they should have done better. North Korea might have a rubbish leadership and an attack on their politics and oppressive rule is more than welcome. When it starts to play fast a loose with physical sterotypes for cheap humour, well we've moved on and we'd moved on 2015.

I'm also annoyed at myself for not calling it out at the time. Rubbish of me.

I was a bit wary of that one from the beginning - wasn't it originally going to be called The Jing Jong Job?  Glad it got renamed before publication.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 22 March, 2021, 10:01:40 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 March, 2021, 07:04:41 AM
There's a one parter that immediately follows Dark Justice, 300 Seconds by Ian Edginton and Simon Coleby and I was looking forward to stumbling across it, though didn't realise it would land so perfectly timed. Its a tale of cadets being told about how Dredd becomes a sentinal once a day at one of Mega City Ones busiest intersection. And its simply magnificent. One of my all time favourite Dredds.

Yeah, that was a good one.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 March, 2021, 09:00:54 PM
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What moves something from good to great?

Grey Area continues a run between Progs 1924 and 1931 that moves it from being a GOOD strip into a GREAT strip and I've been trying the work out why. What is it that lifts a strip above the norm... even above itself? The answer is of course

Resting Bitch Face...

... well no its not her alone is it. Maybe it the shift in art, Mark Harrison joins the strip in this story and I know many love his work - and he has much to praise him. But I'm not his biggest fan, I find lighting and busy, detailed style can clutter and mask the clarity of his storytelling, so I don't think its that.

Maybe its the shift in story as the God-Stars nuking as it came to Earth throws our heroes to the world of The Harmonious Free reversing roles as ETA agents become the immigrants. Its a really clever device and throws folks into sharp contrast to their normal. This heightens the tensions and allows the characters new situations to breathe in and really fleshes them out...

you know it could be that.

Or is it the way the story wonderfully pulls the various threads and ideas that have been boiled up so far together. It feels like a real culmination in what's gone before. And this also allows the characters to burst out and sing in full voice. Its has all its pieces set up, in place and new elements just serve to  further enhance what has been done before.

Now we add that all together and we might be getting somewhere. Its might be the confidence and innovation this new story brings that allows it to shine brighter than the strip has before...

nah its Resting Bitch Face isn't it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 24 March, 2021, 03:53:27 AM
The first chapters focus on establishing the theme and the characters. But for me the strip really came to its own when Mark Harrison started. The new arc certainly gave the story a boost the prior arcs where good but felt still very "we all have been there" in a way.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Tjm86 on 30 March, 2021, 07:43:44 PM
It's interesting running behind a bit on this.  Having just come to the end of 2012's run I found myself completely entranced by the run of strips. 

Rounding out the year with Trifecta gave us so much in terms of quality art and stories.  The start of Brass Sun (I know, one more that we are waiting on developments ...), Grey Area, ... 

It's a solid reminder that when the prog is on fire it blazes really! 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 30 March, 2021, 08:41:08 PM
The Homeworld arc was definitely the turning point for me - it went from my "meh" bucket into my "ooh" bucket at that point and has been consistently strong since then.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 March, 2021, 09:17:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Moons and the meaning of horses

So we get that the titan in Titan is Dredd. His ability to take damage but to carry undaunted and unbending, unlike the convicts on Titan. We get that but its a bloody good adventure story too.

So then New Life a five part story linking Titan and and Enceladus proper. Its interesting by my reading this section is entirely functional. It moves pieces, shapes and shakes relationships and kills folks who need to be dead. Given all the layers and meaning and metaphor this one feels utter utlitarian - my readings are often wrong - but its still a good exciting set up.

So then we get the ghost of Judges past haunting and brutalising the ghosts of justice present. The crimes and guilt of the systems failures given flesh... well ish... and that old life coming back to reap guilty vengance... or just guilt actually. But we have our indefectible hero aside the spiritual symbol of integrity and perserverance to save the day. The horse isn't of course a noble pure white steed. The hero of the dat is also curiously is an architect - whose desire is to rebuilt and create but is forced to survive and destroy.... oh and 'How much grit we got?' - what a loaded, wonderful closing line - but for all that its still an astonishingly exciting read.

That's the great thing about Titan / Enceladus it has a lot to offer on a lot of levels but after all that, first and foremost its a rolocking good read across three rollocking good stories.

Over at the votes that some incessant threadtard keeps kickin' off this story is getting a kickin' by Necropolis - and I get that, that doesn't surprise me. But Necropolis for me, for all its moments looses group on the wonderful, wonderful set up. Titan / Enceladus deserves to take that vote as it beautiful clears that final hurdle,lands perfectly to charge gloriously to the finshing line.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 31 March, 2021, 09:36:46 PM
Necropolis does have a sense of having lost something after the great build-up. And the Sisters are a bit vaudevillian. On the other hand, the Enceladus arc has some great scenes but suffers from that that trope from movies where the hero is captured and has some body-horror torture done to 'em. I hear that bit from Austin Powers "why not just kill them?" Also, Aimee is now just a ranting loon. I don't like the ranting loons much. See also: ST Nemesis.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 April, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 31 March, 2021, 09:36:46 PM
Aimee is now just a ranting loon. I don't like the ranting loons much. See also: ST Nemesis.

I kinda like that aspect.We've seen the steady decline of Aimee from her introduction and this is the final phase of that. First raving loon and then finally undead ice spider monster - like all the best villains - its a dramatic step in her decent, but one that follows the trajectory I'd suggest.

(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

I've been remiss in the run up to Prog 1950 - its one of those phases were stories move in and out but no line-up takes hold and shapes this phase of Progs and so I've found my comments drifting. I then get to a natural break point - flick back and by GOD a lot of great stuff has passed by.

So for the first time in a long time I'm going to do one of those numbered short comment threads I used to do to cover this sort of stuff. Buckle up buttercup we got 26 Progs to cover...

1. In Prog 1924 with the shiney Bolland cover as well as three thrills I've referenced already we get two more that don't really grab me at all. Orlok just passes the time, which is arguably the worst thing any Thrill can do. And Slaine - Brutania Chronicles Book 2 - Primordial has more letters in its title than I can be bothered to type about its content...

2. Well that's not true I should say it alas shows that even a great, GREAT artist, perfect for what I want for this strip, can only give it a temporary up lift.

3. Breaking Bud steps into Dredd in Prog 1929 and aside from one of the great titles of our time is a curious mix of downtrodden citizen and sci-fi caper. I'm not sure it quite works, but by george I love the way it goes for it.

4. There's been some fantastic 3rillers since their introduction but I have to say the couple that pop up during this phase just aren't that successful and fall into the camp of over extended Future Shock, or clear attempt (well to my eyes what do I actually know) to launch a series from it. 3rillers work best when they look at and embrace the form entirely I think.

5. Prog 1932 has a stunning Tharg cover by Alex Ronald and I love a stunning Tharg cover - I hope I voted for this in the Cover of the Year vote?

6. As this is a choppy run we get a number of Future Terror Shocking Tales as well... I have to be brutal none of them really grabbed me.

7. Prog 1934 is a mini relaunch Prog Dredd starts Blood of Emeralds and Absalom and Helium kick off.

8. And then Outlier jumps onboard next Prog as well. I'll say it now - and I know this isn't a popular view - I love Outlier. Even though I'm not a fan of Karl Richardson's art if I'm honest. Here his tight muscular art is perfect for the tight, muscular script. It completely lacks characters of charm and they should fall into that late 90s knob character mold. But again here they work perfectly. The concepts are fascinating, the action engaging and despite a host of things that mean it shouldn't work its a fine example of a thrill coming together perfectly and working as something greater than the sum of its parts. Just as some thrills can fail even though all its elements seeming to work, this one falls into the other end of the spectrum and is a visoral delight. I'm really looking forward to it concluding chapter.

9. Blood of Emeralds is only 6 parts which surprises me, as it reads as an exciting meaty thriller. Redressing the light hearted pomp of the Emerald Isle and investigating the hard and bloody relationship between the UK and Ireland far more effectively. Colin MacNeil's bold and contrast heavy art perfectly suits Mike Carroll's tale that reads like an 80s grim and disturbing BBC 2 drama. All dark corners and violence regret in the shadows.

10. Absalom - Under a False Flag continues to prove I much prefer Harry's tale on re-read having taken time to warm to this first time. I love the drive towards the single overarching story, even as the individual tales cut along their own dark path.

11. Jaegir's overarching drive might be less obvious, but as with the above Grennie forboding tale so with Jaegir. I'm loving it this time from the off. The end of Tartarus also underlines that her relationship with her father certainly shapes these early tales.

12. The Alienist then pops in. ANOTHER Grennie newbie. He's rattling them out at this time. This time ably assisted by Emma beeby. This one is fine, its just less gripping and engaging. The echos aren't as scary, the shadows not as forboding and if some of these posh, turn of the century types pop their cloggs I'm not really engaged enough to care.

13. In 1945 Grey Area pops back in - its just as good. It seems to fill the role of Dabnett end of run filler that Sinister Dexter was reduced to. It does it better, but this has become such a top thrill as discussed below that I feel it deserves a solid run as this tale as real momentum and a singular focus.

14. THEN in 1946 we get the introduction of Dreams of Deadworld - that foreshadows Tales of Deadworld with four shorts each focusing on one each of the Dark Judges. Kek-W and Dave Kendall do a simply wonderful, bleakly wonderful, job of immediately adding the horrific edge that the 4 DJs had lost since Necropolis and show quite clearly there's life in the old corpsemaking corpses yet. Brilliant.

15, And so Helium ends, that's okay, its okay it'll be back. I mean they're not going to abandon a thrill this immediately engaging. A thrill that quickly crafts a sense of world inhabited by fantastic characters before thrusting you into high octane action, aeronautics and thrills. A thrill that is such a success that they are bold enough to leave us, even in the first book, on a cliffhanger of devilish proportions... they can't leave us hangin' for long with something this good... they couldn't, could they... hello... hello... HELLO...

16. You can tell you've at a choppy and changy phase when you start to get fairly random feeling double part stories filling pages as we head towards a launch Prog. Its not that Dredd tale Ghost Town isn't good, it pretty fine with lush art by David Taylor perfectly crafting a good tale by Ian Edginton. Its just not double length episode special. Still it gets us across the line and into 1950 perfectly well.

17. There's been a LOT going on in this phase of 26 Progs and looking at what's coming in Prog 1950 it won't be keeping Bad Company either...

18.... but you'll be glad to hear that's for later!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 01 April, 2021, 10:06:19 AM
What is wrong with Outlier? For me it is everything a like  about sci-fi.  It might not be the most dynamic strip ever but the artwork were truly wonderful and it had a interesting premises.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 April, 2021, 09:16:49 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 01 April, 2021, 10:06:19 AM
What is wrong with Outlier? For me it is everything a like  about sci-fi.  It might not be the most dynamic strip ever but the artwork were truly wonderful and it had a interesting premises.

Oh gosh nothing - I just get the impression its not liked much at all. I think on paper it has issues - particularly on its hard nosed characters. I think its great.

(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Ending and endings

There's a very interesting line-up at the end of 2015. I'll talk about some really good comics at the end of the year before we get there however there's some noteworthy comics to discuss. Firstly there's a great Dredd in Serial Killer with Wagner and MacNeil introducing PJ Maybe ... kinda as Dredd's arch(ish) enemy directs him to track down another serial killer. We then get two fantastic one off Dredds by Mike Carroll in 'Islands' where a young boy witnesses a shooting, followed by the gloriously amusing 'Sleeping Duty' where by a desperate gang of raiders stumble across Dredd asleep in a waystation in the Cursed Earth and have some difficult decisions to make with a brilliant punchline.

Sinister Dexter - The Taking of the Michael  comes to an end of a very long running storyline as they track down Moses and go down guns blazing. Its curiously straight edge and edgy. Its dramatic and exciting, but someone doesn't feel grand enough to finally cap off the Moses Wars. Its feels a little like the end of an old story from the 70s and early 80s where folks are told to wrap things up and so do as quickly as possible. Sure this takes 6 parts, which is pretty long for S&D but we're reaching the end of a storyline the first strands of which appeared 13 years ago.

You'd never say a story like this is going out with a wimper not a bang, it is fun and full of vim, and Dabnett won't - I assume - have been told what to do. I just feel he might have run out of steam. Written himself into a corner and just decided to pull and move on as quickly and cleanly as possible. His ending certainly allows that, but feels a cop out. I really enjoyed the Mose Wars and the tales that span out of that. I just think it needed an ending to celebrate that, rather than draw a veil over it.

A missed opportunity, but a very enjoyable one on its own level.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 April, 2021, 08:15:21 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Questing on a smaller scale

Brass Sun - Motor Head does a very smart thing. This series has always been brilliant, but in Motor Head it makes clear - or at least reminds us - that its more than it seems. Up to this point the series has been expansive, a world building, world trotting quest cast large. The relationships Wren builds have always at its very heart, but its been driven across the exploration of ever more fascinating worlds that Ian Edginton and INJ Culbard seem to create with effortless ease - I'm sure its far from easy, but they make it seem.

Stories that in reality just give you a hint of each new 'planet' that Wren explores, are made to feel like you see much more. They give you a real sense of the new territory, push the over-arching plot on and then whip you away to the next while you still want to learn more.

In Motor Head that feels like it changes and we are very brutally reminded that its Wren's story and the exploration is just a back drop. Motor Head feels far tighter and closer. Its starts and end in Wren's head after all. In our lastest world Wren is held prisoner and therefore the focus is less on exploration and expanse and rather escape - it almost feels claustrophobic. The stakes feel really high and its tense.

Wren and Septimus and there relationship and bond are very much the focus as they struggle with terrifying captors, metallic pursuers and things weighing heavy in the mind. We might have lost the wonderful Ramkin but we gain new cast members (almost) as engaging. The stories real genius however is while giving us this tighter focus, making it more bound - as is fitting given Wren's plight for most of the story - its still generates enough wonders and majesty to remind you we might be in a smaller world but its still magnificent and new and INJ Culbard is still allowed to use his astonishing design to create wonders and glories to behold, as well as his fantastic 'character' acting. In that it almost feels like a warm up for Brink!

Its quite, quite brilliant and by the end Wren and Septimus have escaped, 'Kurt Vonnegut' has a new home, the terrifying Arthur is defeated, but on the last page we are again reminded of the wider world and new perils are presented to cast the story back out onto its globe trotting stage.

This really is one of the great 2000ad stories - and we bloody well need it back Edginton, Culbard and Tharg - I think I'll whine about that more in a couple of Self absorbed years when this one pops up again...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 10 April, 2021, 08:42:46 AM
Brass Sun is one of the modern classics. The biggest gripe for me  is that we are not getting more of this.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 April, 2021, 08:04:05 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

So I was hangin' fire waiting for Bad Company to end before [spoilers] singing its praises [spoilers off] but it does that most curious of things. The story doesn't end in 2015... well it does of course, but not 2015 as I record it. It ends in the big end of year / start of year Prog. Which I treat as the first Prog of the new year, rather than the last Prog of the current year as its primary function, aside from giving Tharg's minions a break and giving us all a treat over the holidays and enough thrillpower to tide us through FAMILY... shudder is to set up the first line up of the incoming year.

Bad Company - First Casulties
breaks that, as a couple of strips have and charges full on into that Prog - we'll discuss its numbering when we get to it. It breaks my preconcieved ideas on how Tharg's years should be treated. I will however discuss it here before a short holiday and getting the next batch of Progs out (thus putting away this years Progs) mean I forget everything that's happened before ... which is of course apt.

See many folks don't like this strip as it clearly dismisses the past, or at least seems to. Characters we know are dead are back to life, are running around blasting guns and snarling at each other and folks seemed to think that wasn't planned and central to the story.... even though the characters all acknowledge the fact they've died and discuss changes AND KANO HAS A BLOODY GREAT HOLE IN HIS HEAD!!!! We don't get a definitive explanation as to why folks are back - we are left with that dangling - but Jez are we given options to choose from;

1. Danny Franks from the very start is clearly labelled as coming from the Krool Heart with the whole madness circle around the eye thing that the Krool have.

2. Its made clear from the very start that any characters have been on meds and coming off those meds is impacting on character and perceptions - was the original Bad Company just a fantasy?

3. The characters enter a hallucination inducing Gologotha Ghetto - similar to the Gologotha Plains of the first story - is all this a fever dream?

There's probably more.

We might be meant to understand the specifics of why all this is happening - if we are I miss it and prefer it that way. After all the idea that there might be several explanations and we need to select our own truth, or indeed choose the one we want to make the story we desire is surely the point. For me the clue is of course in the title 'First Casulties' - the first casulty of any war as we know is truth. This speaks directly to the fact the story peels away the lies that start the Ararat War - it is revealed that the war was started by humans for their own purposes and that induced the Krool into their frenzied brutal state from the calm, peaceful race they had been. We learn that Kano and Bad Company were not tortured by Krool to become the monsters they are, rather where transformed by their commanders to hide the brutal acts they commited to start that war.

We learn very literally in the story that the 'truth' as we understand it from the previous Bad Company stories is as much a fabrication as anything. We are presented clues to allow us to make our own truth from that... and yet Kano runs around with a bloody great hole in his head... so is the past story the truth, or is this story the truth.. its story and we are allowed to decide.

None of this robs us of the previous tales, they exist, always will and if we want them to be out truth then they still are. If we like the layers and mystery that this story provides we can live in the glorious hinterland of possiblity and explore all the options. Or we can take this story as truth and unrevel what has gone before... except Kano has a whole running through his head...

We need to look at what we are presented and make our own truth, whether that be in stories like this, or in 'factual' reports of war and conflicit when those reporting, or providing the story have a truth they want us to see.

Frankly (pun utterly intended and not apologised for) this is fantastic stuff and builds perfectly on what has gone before. Kano remains at his core a metaphor for the brutality and dehumanising effects of war whatever truth you choose to believe.

The art may not be as strong as in early tales (up to 'Kano' for me which I love) but that's this tales only weak spot. I'm very happy this story exists, it only adds to what's gone before and takes nothing away. And truth be told its brilliant.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 April, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2015 Specials

So we get a couple this year and they are similar to the ones we've had in recent years - that I reviewed in bulk cos cos I missed them - FCBD is arguibly better than than the Sci-Fi special - well if it was new content. But a bit of the shine has worn off.

The FCBD comic has another fantastic Henry Flint cover. Behind that we get good Dredd (new) by Matt Smith and Mike Hawthorne as some citizens just try to get entry into their block. Death Rock does that trick of introducing a long lost character, that was rather the style of the time. There's a new Doctor Sin story by Rob Williams (well I think its new). There's a decent selection of reprint, Dan Dare (early Dave Gibbons era, modern Slaine and Torq The god as well as some good shorts.

The real interest if a Mike McMahon story 'The Traveller' from 3000ad - its from the Dan Dare Annual 1980 - but it took me a while to dig that out. I do own that annual but I've not read it often and its not very good. For that reason when I first read this I thought I'd stumble across some new (to me) Mike McMahon and it was a thrill - the story is okay the art lovely. Anyway this gave me a bit of an insight into that a delight this comic must be for the none embedded 2000ad fan - wow new Dave Gibbons, who new Kev O'Neill, whose this Simon Davis fella.

Man these are handsome, well produced items and I really hope they hit the audience they deserved to.

The Sci-Fi special is a bit more run of the mill with a loose theme around movies. There's a decent Dredd by Mike Carroll and Jake Lynch - almost Jake fuckin' LYNCH. A fun Survival Geeks - I'm warming much more to this strip omn re-read. Some great art on most the rest of the strips but overall these stories are all pretty MUH... its so okay.

And there we are 2015 is over... come back in the morning - I hope and we can talk about it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 April, 2021, 09:31:34 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2015

I'm getting remiss at doing these annual round-ups. I guess finding new ways to do various shades of - its all good - is pretty hard. Also discussing whether this is still to be consider a Golden Age - or has the lull gone on long enough to call time on it is getting pretty dull and of course needs more time, thought and definition than I can be arsed to do (form a man typing on the 75th page of a thread all about his re-read!). So shall we have a sneaky look back at my thoughts from 'last year' about what this year would hold, well since we always do...

QuoteNext year 2015, though looks to be able [about] this level, some great stuff but steady rather than golden. The Order kicks off, but not sure what new stuff we get aside from that. There will certainly be nothing wrong but the dulling of the gold might well continue.

I think what marks this period as not quite as good as the Golden Golden is that lack of utter invention. The NuGolden Age kicked off so many wonderful series and here while new stuff is still on a steady stream its not quite as rapid and invigourating. Now having said that The Order starts and that's bloody wonderful. I really like nuBad Company and only really Orlok mis-fires for the new stuff.

The other problem we have is Self Absorbed YNWA is really butting against NuYNWA and there's little to report there. One major change coming next year and that's it really. YNWAs new and old are pretty much of a like mind. There's not so much space between them. At this point the re-read is more a reminder rather than a recap. Almost all the strip now this is my first time of re-read. I've been looking forward to reading them again but don't really have the space and shift in perspective in my noggin to shape new views. Come back in 10 years when I'm doing this again (probably - you have been warned!) and I'm sure I'll be firing off even more thoughts and opinion as I think about retiring - hey that's the plan anyway!

But for now. Well for now this is another fantastic year in thrillpower - its not as good as the absolute Zenith of 2009 - 2013 but its not like we've fallen to far and 2000ad is still astonishingly good comics.

As for looking ahead, well next year, 2016, could actually be very interesting. We enter a period of extended celebration as we hit issue 2000 and head toward the 40th. There are a couple of key events I'm looking ahead to that could mark this as being a time that the Prog gets right back up to its very, very best. That we all stop, take stock and reflect on the fact of what makes The Galaxy's Greatest just that and the comic responds by upping its game just the little bit more to push it from 10 to 11. Let's find out shall we...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 April, 2021, 09:20:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Last big change - early 2016

Well its not that big. but it works better for my tale. In early 2016 Self-Absorbed YNWA got a new job. Leaving his previous on after 17 years at the same insitution. It was a new lease and a much needed change. In 2000ad Tharg realised that he was rapidly catching up with the year numbering on his annual end of year festive Progs and as they are really just lovely jumbo jumping on Progs he decided to keep the Prog numbers running too... so yeah not a big change but an important one as we charge towards a moment year or so.

Tharg starts the year well. Prog 1961 - the one with the change in end of year numbering wraps up Bad Company promising a second part that will come soon I think. Aside from a some one-off treats a nice Absolam, Future Shock and Sinister Dexter ringing in the changes and saying goodbye to Simin Davis (I think) we basically get the new line-up and its a doozy.

Kingdom gives use Beast of Eden as it goes full on Mad Max in typically magnificent, definitive 2000ad style. ABC Warriors might continue to whallow in the past, but the past is very good so we shouldn't complain too much. The Order comes back to set up this series structure, shaking the time stream and keeping you on your toes. After a first enjoyable series this is the one that really takes those foundations and makes clear that the tales has legs, will take a bit of effort but will be well worth it. Strontium Dog starts a great caper, that neatly calls back on the recent past very neatly.

Dredd though arguably does as much to mark it changes. We know John Wagner is winding down but early 2016 we see some great examples of the talents that have been set up cover his moving on. Rob Williams give a nice coda to Titan / Enceladus, followed by a witty one part by Mike Carroll (with Paul Marshal) in 'Street Cred' as a juve shots Dredd and feels earns the consequence of that. He turn turns in an utterly different type of Dredd with a 6 part Ghosts a tight and enthralling thriller with Mark Sexton. Sure it involves an underground cabel of almost Judges which will become a bit of a trope but its an exceelent story. Then Rob Williams (with D'Israeli) steps back in with a straight out comedy Undercover Klegg returning the playful Sensitive Klegg while keeping the action. Sure it might take two writers to (almost) replace Wagner on Dredd, but between them they really nicely play the field of the gamut of Dredd and show that we'll be okay even without him.

Change can be difficult - but if you embrace it it can give you great things.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 03 May, 2021, 08:59:34 PM
(https://m.imgur.com/SuHrhej)

If you pay attention you'll see its all in good Order

The opening line-up of 2016 ends in good order in Prog 1972. We've discussed Dredd already, its as good as its always been for all the changes. ABC Warriors as mentioned doesn't really offer anything new. Strontium Dog is a magnificent crime caper, but we've seen magnificent crime capers before. Kingdom is of course the definition action, adventure 2000ad story, powerful, energetic, enthralling and superb. The very fact that its definitive however means while it feels fresh its not innovating.

So that leaves us The Order - In the Court of the Wyrmqueen to really shake things up... except does it? Its a wonderful strip. Its dense and tight. So many ideas, character, events rattle along. You have to pay attention, which is no bad thing. Even when it throws so much at you a few things fly over your head, its so gripping and beautifully realised I'm pulled along and engaged enough to go back and pick up those things.

For all the screams of complex and hard to penetrate though it pulls that smart trick that John Smith has mastered. It may layer things, it may wrap things up in sharp, imaginative ideas, its may require the reader to work at time for the details but its still built on the same 2000ad chassis engine as them all. Just with sharper lines and a body shape that is different and striking. Under all that its just good, engaging characters, dark rich humour and lots of chopping things up and explosions. You can pour over the outer shell and diverting lines, or you can just enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 May, 2021, 09:23:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

1977 all over again

Let's clear the decks before 1978 when we get an important start - one which actually backs up what I'm about to say. But let's go back to 1977. In the year 1977 2000ad started and in doing so brought with it an energy and a dangerous fresh energy like no other comic.

Prog 1977 shows that some things don't change. Alongside a cute Tharg story, celebrating this fun, little landmark we get new thrills. Aquila, only a couple of years old, as is Survival Geeks - which I will note I'm enjoying its relaxed, cheeky, charm so much more on re-read. Sure its fluff, but its such fun fluff and I'm absolutely sold in Neil Googe's art this time, fun clean and modern but with a nice sharp edge to avoid it becoming cute.

We also get new thrill Fall of the Deadworld - Tainted. We've had short prologues to this series, in one shots, last year but this does feel like something different. It could be seen as a tired concept. A tale told, The Walking Dead set in the land of Death. Its not though, as ever with 2000ad, since 1977, it takes popular culture tropes and spins them utterly, so that while they retain the trappings it becomes so much more. In this case, so much darker, so much richer and brutal. And so full of ideas it will lurch into ugly new directions a comic like The Walking Dead never would. Its so very 2000ad, down to its very core concept, and playful abuse of the rest of the entertainment world's darlings, but also in its unrelenting and uncompromising execution and growth.

Oh sure 1977 isn't / wasn't perfect. I mean blowing up Dredd after a very good opening story for what will becomes Dredd's next epic and one I'm very much looking forward to reading and then having the line 'Next Chapter in the Meg 371' is just annoying.

But as with 2000ad opening year the comic won't rest on its laurels and 1978 will herald even better things!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 May, 2021, 09:30:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

In 1978 things get even better

So last time we talked about the way 2000ad in 1977 (both of them) was innovative and full of powerful restless invention. As we know in 1978 things get better. Be it Starlord smashing in or Brink spinning off into space, in the gap of just 1 year, or even 1 Prog we learn again how 2000ad has never rested on it laurels. Sure it can start good but will strive to find new ways to be better.

I don't doubt I'll talk more about Brink as a story as we go on. Its not universally popular, though almost so. Those that don't like it find it too steady and stayed, dull and plodding. What they miss, to my eye, is that its grasped new ways of telling thrilling stories and elevated them to thrillpowered new highs. It might be different to the thrills old, but then the thrills of old thrived on not being like the other thrills of old too. Innovation and elevation to new and better.

Brink exemplifies that quite majestically and as such is the very definition of what makes 2000ad the Galaxy's Greatest.

Oh and then Grey Area at its best comes back a couple of weeks later, just in case we think Tharg's taking it easy...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 May, 2021, 09:06:24 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Battles, Beasties, Betrothaled and Banter... oh and Bitch

All the Bs then, that's what makes Grey Area work. As the storyline tied to the God-Stars runs it course it wraps around to the beginning and The Rookuk who set the who thing in motion. The storyline has been running for some time and has twisted and turned and in the end does run the risk of wrapping up a little too neatly. A cool idea from Kymn quickly and tidely saves the Harmonious Free. The arrival of The Congruence ties a bow around it and packages away any loose ends. Its so neat if I cared I might call it contrived.

But I don't... well I do, I care a lot, I just don't care its contrived. Dan Abnett and Mark Harrisonmake things brisk and and thrillpower, they distract you with glorious characters like Bitch Face. They bamboozle you with banter and dialogue that clicks along - sometimes a bit to Moffat Doctor Who companion - but its fun. They play narrative trick right under your nose, if you have one of course and yet you don't care.

They balance things perfectly, use their sleights of hands to divert you attention and by doing so distract you entirely from the cheeky nonsense its up to and make this a fantastic thrill.

You cheeky beggers you.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 May, 2021, 09:15:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

No. 21 with a bullet

Every Empire Falls came in at number 21 in the recent Dredd Epic Ranked (Better). AlexF had it a place higher at 20 and I had fond (vague) memories of it going in to the first time of re-read and its very good. Its well ploted and weaves and turns. The side steps to the Meg are a little annoying when reading a Prog only re-read. I get the sense that they would add a little flesh to the bones. Flesh that it might not need, but I feel may benefit it.

The end is the only let down. Its a little light and both loose and tight at the same time. Its not big enough to be an action piece to match the story and the stakes. Its not smart enough to be a satisfying end to the clear plot turns. JD and co just walk in and kinda have a teleport big hit in their back pocket. it works on the level of making Dredd the relentless force that has been so central to the thinking. That elevate Dredd to the level we know he operates at. At that level it works very well. On the level of a satisfying ending to whats gone before it doesn't quite.

Still overall it a very different, very satisfying epic more in the mold of Tour of Duty that anything else and while its not top ten I do wonder if we ranked it fairly.

At some point I will read it with the Meg issues and see how that works better or otherwise.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 May, 2021, 09:34:36 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Brink

So Prog 1992 brings Brink to an end after 15 episodes. Its kinda hard to sum up why its so good. Arguably the best new thrill in 2000ad since... well since what would be the question. I've already mentioned that its different to what's been in the Prog before, so thats one thing.

Second - the art is magnificent. Tight and claustrophobic. Modern and yet classic. The colours are perfect and scream not just atmosphere but make the environment feel solid and alive. The best of it is the arting INJ Culbard does. The story is all about moments and interactions, the dialogue is sparce when it needs to be, as INJ can carry the load. When its dense his visuals sell the scene so it doesn't feel like you are wading.

Third - Since I've mentioned dialogue there's that as well. Dabnett has always had a fine ear for banter. He though here he nails it. It feels real and in tune with the series. Simon Bowland's lettering sells it as well. Breaking up long exchanges to add emphasis and pacing.

Four - The characters. I mean its Bridget mainly. She feels genuine and utterly refreshing and lacking in cliche. She's not likable as a person particularly, but she's engaging as a character and that's a fine balance to pulled off. The folks around her add depth and weight to the world, but she is such a fantastic, original presense she does all they heavy lifting and what's surprising if some one was to provide a 200 word summary of who and what she is you'd never believe that possible. She grounds a series that's full of mystery and intrigue in a way that makes the mystery all the more mysterious.

Five - Its unexpected. Firstly on the plot level. It twists and turns and genuinely unravels (or starts to) a real puzzle that has you engaged and guessing. Left on edge, never quite sure, driving you along to discover, slightly breathless and off balance. Brinkman gets kills, not in some big dramatic way, but in a way that blindsides you. Hell it ends on 'Mercury just went dark' as in disappeared. Just as you get your feet the rug is pulled from you, time and again. Not to throw you completely to the floor, rather to keep you moving and off balance.

Six - Its unexpected. Secondly on an expectations level. You don't expect this to work. You don't expect it to be thrilling. A series constructed on moments, on individual instances and exchanges shouldn't work this well. Shouldn't feel this coherant. A tale this 'slow' by 2000ad standard should feel painful alongside other thrills, but of course it doesn't. Its pace, fair from glacial when you actually read it, is deceptive. It gives you the impression that its a slow burn, but it actually rattles along with breaks of violence and action just when needed - but no more. The rug pulls perfectly timed as I've said to keep throwing you forward, further and further into the mystery, but always feeling a little out of control.

There are almost certainly a seven, eight, nine and ten, but its getting late so that will have to do for now. Brink is a wonder and as Prog 2000ad approaches kicks the Galaxy's Greatest out of it golden plateau and reminds you that the driving ambition and glorious generation of new and innovative stories is still there, still just as strong and there's more to come to...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 May, 2021, 09:50:42 PM
I love Brink, as well. Oh, and I've yet to read Hate Box. The central mystique (dark gods, or is everyone just really, really high?) is managed very well, and the scene-setting wonderfully believable. I like how it doesn't explain too much as regards how we ended up on the brink in the first place - instead just dropping us into the world and expecting us to deal with it.

I have issues with over-labeling (having gone to all the trouble of providing mystique and allowing us to be grown-ups, I'm not sure of its purpose) and the censored swearing (because it's distracting and upsets the flow of the dialogue), but it's testament to the overall power of the story and the wonderful rendering of the world that it still stands out as a real highlight of the prog in the modern era.

I rather enjoyed Brinkman getting offed (sorry - didn't like him) and the focus switching to Bridget.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 May, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Tonight we're going to party likes its Prog 1999

Why oh why was that not the tag line... I mean its nothing to do with this post really, but "Move along citizens. Nothing to see here..." doesn't work does it for PROG 19-fuckin'99...

ahem ... anyway ... lets talk about Prog 1998 shall we.... actually no we'll come back to that first we will look at the stories that ended in Prog 1999, which was obviously clearing the decks. I mean what elsewhere you going to do before Prog 2000. Jaegir 'War Child' provides a brutal, vicious ending to this short Jaegir story - its really a masterful horror.

I've not talked about Scarlet Traces yet and its opening story 'Cold War' is exciting, inventive and twists and turns... but for some reason I just find it effective. It reads really well, the art is fantastic.. and yet effective... what's that about. Its almost as if it so well crafted it forgot to have a heart to grip me and so its... effective.

Outlier I have talked about and it ending is as good as what's gone before. It too is effective but in a way that I found gripping and exciting. Bold and different. Interestingly I'm not quite sure where the heart of this story is either, but still it did grip me... bloody hell the twists and turns of subjective opinion huh!

The biggest problem in 1999 is found in 1998. In the Prog before the last Prog of the second millenium (oh I'm sure someone will tell me 2001 is the second millenium's start cos no Prog 0 and all that but sod it) sits the BIG story to wrap up and mark such a big occasion. In Prog 1998 Judge Dredd - Ladykiller ends and with it very definitively the tale of PJ Maybe. He has a big death - in that he is shot and plunges a great distance AND explodes - so yah know he's dead. The trouble is this is an effective story... I mean its actually a good story, a very good story, but for a character of the calibre of PJ Maybe it isn't quite of the scale and punch that it seems like it deserves. Its a really good story but it can't live up the scale of the story we expect to mark the end of Dredd's greatest foe (discuss?). The trouble is what could. So in this instance effective will just have to do. But why wasn't it in Prog 1999? Who knows...

...and so that leads us to Prog 2000 another event so momentus that surely there's no way it can live up to the scale of expectation? Well join me next time and we can findout together.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 May, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
You recall, of course, that's there's also a guy in the psycho cubes (Warren Gillo, prog 1954) who *thinks* he's PJ Maybe.

I have no idea if Wagner did that as a throwaway, or as a way of bringing him back, in at least some form.

Wagner pulled off so many of these PJ-in-disguise and mind control drug stories that I'm not even sure that really IS PJ Maybe at the end of Ladykiller.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 May, 2021, 09:50:54 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 May, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
Wagner pulled off so many of these PJ-in-disguise and mind control drug stories that I'm not even sure that really IS PJ Maybe at the end of Ladykiller.

There was also the theory about the voice in his head relating to his time with the Dark Judges and he'd become some sort of new one of them.

I still liked to believe that John Wagner did what he did at the end of 'Ladykiller' just to underline how dead and done PJ was....

I have a track record of getting this sort of thing wrong!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: TordelBack on 22 May, 2021, 06:55:40 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 May, 2021, 09:50:54 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 May, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
Wagner pulled off so many of these PJ-in-disguise and mind control drug stories that I'm not even sure that really IS PJ Maybe at the end of Ladykiller.

There was also the theory about the voice in his head relating to his time with the Dark Judges and he'd become some sort of new one of them.

I still liked to believe that John Wagner did what he did at the end of 'Ladykiller' just to underline how dead and done PJ was....

I have a track record of getting this sort of thing wrong!

Moi aussi.

My take on this has been split two ways. First, the end emphasises that's there's no glamour in being a serial killer,  PJ has always been a lucky psychopath, not some admirable rebel genius (unlike Chimpsky!), and here he runs out of road and is simply disposed of as the creep he is. No blaze of glory,  no final scheme.   

Second, the unresolved oddness of it all gives John (and everyone else else) an escape hatch should one every prove desirable.

I also can't shake the idea that John of that period had a notion to do something with dark inner voices, but he couldn't quite find what it was - I'm obviously thinking of Life & Death of...  here, where Johnny's voice similarly goes essentially nowhere.



Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2021, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 May, 2021, 06:55:40 AM
I also can't shake the idea that John of that period had a notion to do something with dark inner voices, but he couldn't quite find what it was - I'm obviously thinking of Life & Death of...  here, where Johnny's voice similarly goes essentially nowhere.

Yeah the echos are interesting and in the end still unexplored. Mind if we start to see Dredd get some black inner voice we're in trouble!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: The Corinthian on 22 May, 2021, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 May, 2021, 07:30:27 AMYeah the echos are interesting and in the end still unexplored. Mind if we start to see Dredd get some black inner voice we're in trouble!

I dunno, a strip about Dredd arresting his black inner voice for interfering with a Judge's duty would be pretty funny.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 May, 2021, 09:32:01 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2000 Already Down

Wow when you reach a milestone it can make you stop and think - to look back and reflect ... or to just go BLOODY HELL have I really just read 2000 Progs* that's a LOT. It might make you go all analytical and start to try to work out what this has all meant to you, how it has changed you and in turn you have changed it (or your perspection of it at least.). Or maybe you get very drunk have a MASSIVE party and imbibe... well whatevers around - you've made sure to bring plenty of chewie.... actually maybe that was a different 2000ad celebration (true story at the actual 2000ad party I went to, my best friends got off with someone who was dressed as me (it was a fancy dress party) if I hadn't been having such a good time myself that would have been very weird!).

ANYWAY

You might also get a little mushy and huggy and just go for full sentimental chuddlyness. Thats what Prog 2000 goes for. It makes no apologises for having fun and being happy to have hit 2000 progs and it bloody well gives us all a big hug and a kiss. Checks we're having and good time and pupils dilated, chewin' hard, moves onto the next person to tell them how lovely they are and to make sure they're having a good time - maybe a bit of a dance on the way AND wayhey who's this, who cares, hug um and check they're having and good time ... ohh that music.

I mean the stories aren't particularly great - but who cares we've having a bloody good time.

The best thing in it. Well thats looking to the future as Tharg says, even if that futures is now five years old and new thrill Counterfeit Girl is - fittingly - by far the standout. Pete Milligan teaming up with Rufus Dayglo, returns to one of his staple themes of ***identity and who we are, if we're not really ourselves.

Its all actually a bit of a mess but gosh its a lovely enjoyable one and one we'd happily do again - let's hope the come down next  issue ain't too harsh...

*Of course 'just' is a relative term I'm almost exactly (like almost to the day looking back - gosh who knew!) 5 years into this so ya know - this Prog wasn't even out when I started!**

**Oh God NuYNWA is getting all weirded out that current Self-absorbed YNWA wasn't even possible when original Self-absorbed YNWA was born... he's having an identity crisis like***
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 May, 2021, 08:02:41 AM
I'm going to be talking about the post Prog 2000 line up soon as I've nearly finished it, and 2016, BUT just wanted to quickly stop by to mention a little something.

In Prog 2008 in 'Flesh' Pastor Sunday - the murderous priest trapped in the Cretacous, now blackened by meteor debris, is trapped between three being intent on killing him. Claw Carver - Sunday killed his wife and great love. Carver's daughter Vegas, it was her mother Sunday killed and giant dinosaur Gorehead. The episode ends on this glorious cliffhanger. Who will claim him?

The 'Next Prog' tag line = Pastor Bolognese!

Uncle Pat still got it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2021, 10:47:54 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Making the most of the last days of your 30s

Obviously turning 40 changes everything - you get old, hair falls out, bellys get rotund and you start cycling/jogging/doing triathons to try to compenstae. So as you head that way, in those dying embers of youth - have a BLAST, smoke tabs, drink booze, take drugs. Live it large and rock that roll (before it heads to your tummy).

Well that seems to be 2000ads take on things - it would have been 39 year old YNWAs as well but ya know he'd just had his second kid and was kinda knackered!

But yeah the final year of 2000ad's 30s ends with a line-up just aching to prove its still got it and is as vital as it was 20 years or more ago.

Hunted reflects back on glories past with a Traitor General focused Rogue Trooper story that is fun, brimming with ideas and insight - I like the way The Traitor General is fleshed out from the cackling caracurite he was. Oh and Helm gets a bit of a staring roll. Oh and that slightly out of place, but all the same great fun pop at 90s Image. Oh and wonderful PJ art... I enjoyed this and it does come across as GRennie at his most playful.

Savage - The Marze Murderer - what to do when the way that's driven Bill for years is over. Why send him to Germany and reveal for the psycho we've always known him to be. Uncle Pat, so, so ably abetted by Patrick Goddard keeps his best strip of recent years interesting and exciting by spinning it into new directs. This is the 39 buying a bike to show they've still got energy and strength and can learn new skills.

Dredd - there's some nice Dredd two a Russian repraisal, a Ghosts in the walls and the proof that an architect is a must have in all Justice Department crack teams and a very disturbing solution to a food crisis. Dredd is the 39 years career. You might need to do it week in week out but that doesn't mean you can't find new ways to iinovate and be creative in that job.

Flesh - cos even at 39 when you are losing the plot - well its getting a bit stretched you still know dinosaurs and cowsboy are pretty cool - even if you kinda ignore the sense of it all at this stage.

The best thing in this line-up though is

Counterfeit Girl - grab at old friend (if its Pete Milligan) - maybe bring a new one (Rufus Dayglo doing his best work in 2000ad) and show the kids you can still party like a good un. That you are still at your best discovering and creating something new. And have a damned good time with those psychodelics - even if you are having a struggle with your identity. Milligan returns to old themes - for him - and shows that nobody does it better and 2000ad is at its best when punching out glorious new stories. PAARRRTTTYYYY....

And so there we have it. 2016 is over, a review to come and we charge into a big year. Man I'm so glad we both still got it.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 30 May, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
I wonder if we will ever see a sequel either Counterfeit Girl or Hunted?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2021, 02:55:19 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 30 May, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
I wonder if we will ever see a sequel either Counterfeit Girl or Hunted?

I'm not sure Counterfeit Girl needs anymore. For me it was a lovely done in one and gone package.

I thought there was another Traitor General story, though memory is shocking for such things - so I'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 May, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2016

As ever let's look to what I said last year... the think is we're getting so close to modern day and as I've said before our YNWA are melding into a MetaYNWA (or is that Mecha... or even Mega???) that these predictions are getting.... well predictably good.

QuoteAs for looking ahead, well next year, 2016, could actually be very interesting. We enter a period of extended celebration as we hit issue 2000 and head toward the 40th. There are a couple of key events I'm looking ahead to that could mark this as being a time that the Prog gets right back up to its very, very best. That we all stop, take stock and reflect on the fact of what makes The Galaxy's Greatest just that and the comic responds by upping its game just the little bit more to push it from 10 to 11. Let's find out shall we...

So that's a yes then. I got it spot on.

If we delve a little closer into what I said when discussing 2015 we get into the meat of the matter and why 2016 is a step up. I said...

QuoteI think what marks this period as not quite as good as the Golden Golden is that lack of utter invention. The NuGolden Age kicked off so many wonderful series and here while new stuff is still on a steady stream its not quite as rapid and invigourating. Now having said that The Order starts and that's bloody wonderful. I really like nuBad Company and only really Orlok mis-fires for the new stuff.

And in 2016 the new stories also raise the bar. The Order has a fantastic second series, We get Counterfeit Girl - the almost perfect self contained series. Deadworld starts in earnst. Scarlet Traces might not totally light up my world, but its very good and good enough for me to appreciate that its my problem not Edginton and D'Israeli's.

And of course we get the superlative Brink.

Dredd has some brilliant stories as well. A lot of the new faithful have good outing and all in all we're in fine, fine form. As good as any time between 2009 and 2012. While the time inbetween might not have been quite as good 2016 shows that 2013-2015 was really just a plateau between two magnificent peaks and a very elevated plateau at that.

We are also in an extended period of celebration with Prog 2000 leading nicely the 40th birthday and I think just has 2016 has lived up to the scale of the task building up to this period, so 2017 will be up to the task of taking these new heights forward and sustaining the new higher ground.

We lived in guilded times and frankly we still are... I better go and read some specials and FCBD issues to celebrate...



Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: sheridan on 30 May, 2021, 09:09:49 PM
I much preferred Counterfeit Girl to any Bad Company we've had this millennium.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 31 May, 2021, 04:14:53 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 30 May, 2021, 09:09:49 PM
I much preferred Counterfeit Girl to any Bad Company we've had this millennium.

Y2K bug we all feared
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 May, 2021, 09:14:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2011 - Back to the Future

So if you don't pay attention you can say that there have been two bumper end (start of) year Prog 2011s, but the first one is of course Prog 2011ad BUT for the purposes of this exercise shall we ignore that.

See as 2000ad charges into its 40th year it does so by not looking back. And sure I've done this before do 2000ad ability to not look back, be it as its namesake, be it at previous 2011s, be it even the last run. No what makes 2000ad the Galaxy's Greatest is avoiding reboots (mainly), not retreading (mainly) but instead drivign forward and therefore evolving, always evolving and growing. No better example than this issue - let's have a closer looks.

Dredd - well okay, but that's always going to happen! 40 year in though and the strip still produce episodes as fresh, exciting and just plain funny as this tale of accountancy gone bad - yep even the Accounting Dept gets into the new fad of corrupted Judging. Still Rob Williams and Chris Weston play a blinder.

New Thrill - Kingmaker and its a corker of an opener in the classic 2000ad tradition of genra mashing. More on this one soon I'm sure.

Ace Trucking Co okay so this one is looking back and is notably the weakest thing for it - lovely Nigel Dobbyn art aside.

The Order entering its third series - this new thrill is still fresh and exciting.

The Fall of Deadworld - a one of for this fantastic series that only got its first ongoing last year.

New Thrill - Hope another cracking opener for this Hollywood magical noir - again more down the pike.

Aquila - okay so you could agrue reboot here BUT its does it very well and his future (in the story sense) looking one off is a beaut.

Kingdom might be looking a little long in the tooth compared to many around if at ten years old but proving already there's life in the old fog yet.

So yeah that's pretty impressive and for fans who live in the past a bit annoying. For fans that want to see a comic that grows and strives for the new and innovative its a boon.

There's also a lovely feature obn Misty. Remember when all this reprinting of old material was fresh and exciting. When it was novel and surprising. Well we can almost take it for granted now. Just showing that while Rebellion have an eye on thwe future they have massive respect for the past and have revived old wonders like no one ever has in the UK comics industry.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 June, 2021, 09:36:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

40th - Brink* and you'll miss it

What I admire most about the way 2000ad handles the 40th - at least through the prism of this re-read is it pretty much ignored it... well of course it didn't, but let me explain. In terms of the Prog itself, there were adverts for celebrations and events, letters from the arch-letter writers, mentions in the Nerve Centre, but in terms of story it was handled in the most appropriate way. It was ignored. As the 40th came and went 2000ad was half-way(ish) through the opening line-up of 2017 and so it just carried on, the way it should. It just continues producing a wonderful line-up of great stories. Its wonderfully fitting.

So I'll not dwell anymore here, instead I'm talk about that first line-up. There's really good Dredd as Mike Carroll, with Tiernen Trevallion and Henry Flint return to Texas City. There's another superb Kingdom as Gene is taken onboard the Master's ship, is reunited with 'Leeze' and Leeze, clashes with a kitty and generally tells a glorious story. The Order returns for its third series and its a blinder as Wyrms turn and tales nose into corners unseen. The Order is a strip I love, which is even better on re-read when all the bits you miss, or misunderstand fall into place. Its a masterpiece and that's not just the art.

This stuff is magnificent, but more importantly there are two wonderful new stories. I'll return to 'Hope' at a later date - as it takes a break half way through. I'll pause though to mention its break opens the door to one of my favourite runs on Sinister Dexter as Steve Yeowell joins as regular artist - again something I'll return to.

Instead though I'd like to focus on the other new thrill 'Kingmaker' its a 2000ad masterclass. Its so typical of the Prog and why the 40 years of thrills its produced have worked so well. It takes a genra staple and current media darling - in this case the Tolkienesque fantasy - and spins it. In this case throwing in an alien invasion. I mean that concept is fantastic in and of itself, but it throws another 2000ad staple, made great over the years. It twists the convention of who we are cheering for. Sure we have the world-weary wizard, as much Rincewind as Gandalf, but the stand out character (well at least his equal) is our Orc (well spelling aside). So as well as all this we get a glorious odd couple romp as well.

In doing all this, with Leigh Gallagher producing the best art he has in the Prog I should note, it never forgets to be thrilling, twisting, teasing and tremendous fun. Its just a bloody good thrill. My only concern for it is we've only had one more book after this and I hope it doesn't fall victim to writers Ian Edginton's habit of getting distracted by new shiny things. This is an epic, entertainly thrill and I want it back!

So yeah 40 years in and - in the Prog at least - rather than sit and celebrate Tharg's prime focus is getting the next 40 off with a seamless bang. What a great line up this is, celebrating all that's made those first forty years so fantastic, by looking ahead and constantly driving forward to the new.

...but of course we, and Tharg can't ignore an occasion as significent as the 40th so join me next time as we look at the 40th Anniversary Special a potentially wonderful package, created to allow the Prog to carry on doing what it does best.

*Oh and there is of course no Brink in any of these but errr the play on words pleased me and Brink represents all that is magnificent about new thrills, so forgive me.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 June, 2021, 09:00:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

40th Anniversary Special

I said somewhere about some issue / other comic that ...that other comic was a big ol' hug of a comic and that's exactly what the 40th Special is too a big ol' hug of a comic.

It does have a very good Dredd by Wagner and Critchlow - which is cauriously and gloriously out of place in its grim 'Blood' driven intensions as Dredd investigates a mysterious pool of blood and the murder that almost certainly goes with it.

The rest of the comics however is just having such fun. Is embracing us and embracing everything 2000ad (which is why the out of tone Dredd is also very fitting). Its a lovely thing - but there's not much more to say really.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 June, 2021, 09:16:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Just a quickie tonight my dears.

As I've commented before NuYNWA and Selfabsorbed YNWA are colliding and so its hard to distinguish one from the other... normally. But its ressuring that Selfabsorbed YNWA is still capable of being a numb nut... or is that the Selfabsorb YNWA when now Selfabsorbed YNWA was NuYNWA was starting this re-read and thus awash with the type of Dredds 'Get Jerry Sing' is and so didn't appreciate it as much as current NuYNWA whose Selfabsorbed YNWA hasn't had this type of Dredd for a while now too... I think...shit I need to stop with this stuff!

Basically 'Get Jerry Sing' in Prog 2023 is an old school work of genius by the masters Wagner and Ezquerra. It really sings out as different and fresh by being so old and vital. Like a one off Dredd from the 300s but revitalised and modern. Its a simple story of a man scrawling a slogan, that slogan inspiring a fade and a murder... but it was all legal so he got away with it... except this is Mega City One so of course he didn't.

Its short, deceptively smart and oh so much fun. Just a brilliant piece of craft.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 June, 2021, 07:57:33 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Harvey

I mean I don't have much to say about Harvey, I mean who needs to hear more about another magnificent Dredd by Wagner - YAWN! Same ol' bloody same ol'.

The thing is I can never quite get my head into what the title is telling us about the story. Let's work with the basis that Harvey is a direct reference to the Jimmy Stewart film and work from there. If that's not right then we can forget all this.

So Harvey is a movie about a man who sees an invisible rabbit, but despite folks seeing him as mad, this vision helps him be wiser than everyone who thinks that. So if the rabbit is real, or not I guess doesn't matter in the film - its the insight into life. So in the comic Harvey is clearly not invisible he's a bloody great hulking robot capable of great violence and great compassion (well in terms of Judges). Its Dredd's ability to see things that others don't that the title refers to right? And the fact that he's wiser. Hence - we think - Hershey will trust his judgement regardless of what others see...

...except of course she doesn't. Dredd is unable to see beyond his own prejudice and regardless of Harvey's performance - which is exceptional - fails him and the latest round of the Mechanismo programme (seriously change the name so folks get past previous failures!). So is Dredd actually the folks around Elwood (the rabbit seer in the film) and its him that actually doesn't see the potential wisdom in what Hershey and other are saying. That his fixed views are the problem?

Or is all that a slight of hand and we're meant to imagine the comparison with the film, think that Dredd is being ignored, but as in the film is able to see things others can't and is much wiser. Thus we the reader get a sense of dread of what is to come. Damnit the fools have ignored Dredd and his invisible fear of robots and this will have consequence and as the story rolls on that creates tension, that to this point at least hasn't been realised... maybe Wagner has a long term plan for all this and the robots will become a threat down the road? But to this point that consequence hasn't come to pass and Mechanismo seems to be the saving of the Justice Department.

Or maybe I'm over thinking all this and need to enjoy great Wagner Dredd for what they are, great Wagner Dredd. Maybe I'm seeing invisible themes and ideas that just ain't there and they aren't making me any the wiser and I'm just a crazy drunken bum ?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2021, 09:23:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

All things Tharg and beautiful

Prog 2033 is an example of what all the Progs of this era, post 40th, do so well. They feel like a colourful celebration of all things. The colours and art is so vibrant - even in muted greys of Colin MacNeil's Defoe somehow shine through. Its a wonderful thing to behold. And really does feel as though the Prog is celebrating, and well it might. 40 years and it still going strong, very strong.

Dredd has a Cursed Earth car race from T.C. Edlington and Brendan McCarthy - which is vibrant and fun.

Brink has opened out its spaces and it palette and its brilliant - we'll come back to that.

Scarlet Traces is violent reds and oranges and feels so much more solid in this second story (in the Prog that is). It ends really well and sets up more to come nicely and I enjoyed this one so much more, not that the first was bad - as I said earlier - just sometimes a story takes a while to gell.

The really focus here though is the brilliant 'Fall of Deadworld - Cursed' in all these explosions of colour it seems strange that the muted red browns and bitter blues are the most celebratory - not that its quite as good a Brink of course! - the fact that Deadworld is soooo 2000ad and visually such a contrast says everything about what makes the comic so great. Things sit side by side that have no place together, yet each contributes to making a whole that is so much more than the some of its parts - even when those parts are brilliant in themselves.

Its not just the visual elements that work so well. Its hard and grim. Unrelentingly harsh. The story cuts away at joy and slashes aside hope. It crushes and grinds and does so gleefully. Its truly 2000ad at its darkest best. Then in the last panel, after all the death and fear, creepy ghost and near zombies, a child reaches out a hand to another trapped lost soul and its a genuinely touching moment. All the more so due to the contrasting horror that has surrounded it.

And that is 2000ad right there. The contrasts celebrating and amplfying the differences and makes those things that should be so opposed elevated.

Oh and as that McCarthy Dredd ends, Chris Weston drops in. As Deadworld falls out, Grey Area rises up, As Scarlet Traces takes to the bench Grennie and PJ Holden take us back to NuEarth. Oh that I had that much in reserve when I reached my 40th!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 June, 2021, 09:13:37 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Grey Area - Life on Earth

The delights of the contrast in 2000ad where my focus last time and this time its largely the same. 'Life on Earth' is a simple done in one character piece focusing on Resting Bitch Face and Compelling Male Musk Odor and its quite brilliant.

To this point these two Harmonious Free have largely been played for laughs alone the aliens in a strange land. They have played that part perfectly and their off kilter dialogue has made them fun character, really engaging and enjoyable. These five pages blow them open and take them from that into truly wonderful rounded souls.

The Harmonious Free are a hive mind, linked telepathically. So as well as seeing the amusing insights into the way Bitch reacts to different aspects of life on Earth she also reveals the depth of her loneliness isolated from her culture telepathic connection. The contrast of the character played for fun giggles and the depth of this isolation, this contrast, makes this revalation hit home incredible hard.

This is then further emphasized when she mets her one link to what has been and his reality on Earth, the crushing bigotry of squad he has been placed in pushes even that release away. Deeper still it exposes the way life on Earth is crushing and isolating Musk even more. Unable to entrust his sore even with this one connection to the shared experience he has known before.

Its magnificently heart breaking and all the more so as these folks have been such fun in the past, to suddenly be submerged into their sad isolation is just compelling. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: pauljholden on 24 June, 2021, 12:19:29 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 June, 2021, 07:57:33 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Harvey

I mean I don't have much to say about Harvey, I mean who needs to hear more about another magnificent Dredd by Wagner - YAWN! Same ol' bloody same ol'.

The thing is I can never quite get my head into what the title is telling us about the story. Let's work with the basis that Harvey is a direct reference to the Jimmy Stewart film and work from there. If that's not right then we can forget all this.

I can't speak to how the title fed in to the story, but John (McCrea) is on record as saying Harvey the robot is named after his son, and John named him for that because "it fitted the story".

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 June, 2021, 09:10:35 PM
Quote from: pauljholden on 24 June, 2021, 12:19:29 AM
I can't speak to how the title fed in to the story, but John (McCrea) is on record as saying Harvey the robot is named after his son, and John named him for that because "it fitted the story".

Arh damnit - if you e ver needed more evidence that however much I right the vast majoiry will be poppycock!

(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Skeleton Life

So maybe I should keep this brief then... I came here to talk about Brink Book 2 which raps up in Prog 2040. Such a fantastic story there much be a lot to say... to break down and analyse. Examination of what makes the story quite so brilliant...

...the trouble is sometimes... however affecting the story is. How tense, impactful and powerful. However compelling the characters, however fresh and expansive the art, however perfectly acted it characterisations ... just sometime there's nothing to say.

Well except when you strip it to its bare bones nothing else matters than its fuckin' amazing comics and storytelling and all the rest is just hot air.

Brink is the very best of comics and therefore stories.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 June, 2021, 09:28:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

And I don't mean by bitcoin

Its foolish to focus on the negative on the run in to Prog 2050 as there's so much to love. Dredd has some doozies - War Buds is brilliant. However great the story, its the introduction Dan Cornwell an artist I think is so strong that is really the marker this one leaves. I also await the return of Vega a character Mike Carroll created - these days feels a little like the sort of creation the Kenneth Niemand would come up with. The story Ouroboros in which she appears is such fun.

'Hope for the future' comes back to finish its 12 issue run and its darkly superb. Its a shame it lost its momentum with the long lay off, but its testament to how strong the storytelling is, how focused the ideas and characters, how rooted in things we understand and know and yet brings something fresh - that it might have missed a few months, but it didn't feel like it missed a beat.

Grey Area too, another fantastic run of stories with the two parter 'Signal Six Twenty-Four' being an absolute highlight with Bulliet and co getting one (or more than one over) Grell in utterly satisfying fashion that sets up future stories.

So with all that good why am I obsessing over the bad. Well the answer is in how much I've enjoyed Greysuits up to the final story 'Foul Play' and in the line - said as the villian charges into glorious gun battle -

QuoteBlake you need to pay for those snooker tables! And I don't mean in Bitcoins

WHAT??? HUH??? Errr look I think its meant to emphasize that our villain Humphries has messed up priorities. How his establishment views and priorities really distort him from the real world. The fact that its a ludicrous line that makes not a jot of sense be damned. The fact it reads as utter poppycock dialogue in the scenario - for the birds. That it sounds like an aging uncle catching onto a modern term and throwing it into a sentence, even if it makes no real sense here, just to try to sound like he has the finger in the pulse. Well none of that matters. Uncle Pat throws the line in cos it establishes the theme he wants to UN.DER.LINE.

And alas that's this story in microcosm. Uncle Pat is throwing ideas, terms everything at this to punch home how he's attacking establishment ideas. How he's attacking the ruling classes. He's exposing the dark powers that pull the strings and the very strings they pull. He's making it feel real and contemporary.

The trouble is that's everything this series has always said so by SHOUTING. IT. SO. IN. OUR. FACES. he's adding nothing to what the series has to offer and say. He's doing that at the expense of making the story make a jot of sense.

So why can't I let it go. Well in doing so we're robbed of the impact of Blake getting shot up and dying. Its interesting the forefather of this series M.A.C.H. 1 also had a rubbish final story, but it played the drama well at least meaning John Probes death felt important, dramatic and mattered. Here after really enjoying the series we are brushed past Blakes demise so we can have one more extended scene of redundant ranting.

And alas yes here ranting feels like a fair term.

Its as if Uncle Pat has completely lost the balance story and message. Plot and pathos fall foul of his repeated and repeated and repeated polemic.

Such a shame.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 July, 2021, 09:13:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Icon

A three part Dredd by TC Edlington and Colin MacNeil wonderfully carrying on the Sons of booth storyline. The thing that really works here is of course it transends the normal villains that Dredd's blunt force tactics (as some would have it). In fact they use that very reputation against him. The Sons of Booth are a bunch of hick 'hardmen' lead and crafted into similar blunt instrument as Dredd (as some would have it). Not to beat him, rather to expose him.

The fists and violence aren't intended to defeat Dredd, at least not those of others. Instead the media is used to crusade against Dredd's violence. The wonderful irony of the dreadful violence they wish to inflict escaping their camera welding weapon.

Here though the creative team play with the iconography of a fascist state as well, in a way that established the Judges as the established powers that be. Its just wonderful crafted stuff. My fear reading this, even after just 4 years was that it would feel very of its time and the political climiate it was so clearly reflecting. Its doesn't however the ideas and theme still work, and even though its been only four years this tall already feels a little timeless.

There are some folks that insist that if its not Wagner its not Dredd. There are therefore some folks not counting some bloody great comics.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 06 July, 2021, 10:21:22 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 06 July, 2021, 09:13:50 PM
There are some folks that insist that if its not Wagner its not Dredd. There are therefore some folks not counting some bloody great comics.

This "if it's not Wagner, it's not canon" shit that comes from some corners of fandom drives me insane. I'll confess that there are some stories that I mentally exclude from my personal canon — more or less everything by Millar/Morrison or McKenzie/Steelgrove — but that stuff came from a period when John was intentionally not writing for the prog, due to the editorial stance at that time. In what we might call the 'modern era', when he's deliberately chosen to write the minority of the stories in any given year, we don't get that choice. It's all canon. You can like, it or not like it (and I don't like all of it), but it's all canon.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 06 July, 2021, 11:11:51 PM
I think my brain works differently from many others in 'fandom' (or any fandoms) because "canon" means absolutely nothing to me.
Unless we are talking about -specifically- the works of single author's canon (so, ACD's Sherlock Holmes, REH's Conan, HPL's Cthulhu Mythos, ERB's Tarzan, Wagner's Dredd etc) then I get it, and that's fine. But all those properties mentioned above have lives far beyond their originators. So the characters/ worlds' 'canon' is simply *everything legitimately published by the copyright holders*. I have no difficulty incorporating absolutely everything into the story. Sonny Steelgrave Dredd- yeah, fine, Tarzan meeting King Kong- that'll do. Did Strange Tales #130, when Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm met The Beatles, happen? Yep. And it happened at the height of their popularity in '64 or '65, which means the FF have been around since the early 60s- and does that somehow lessen my enjoyment of the comic, knowing it *makes no sense*? Not in the least.
What does make me sad, is when people forcibly try to remove aspects of the 'canon' because they don't like them. Because they 'don't fit' or 'contradict' something later.
They are stories.
I don't need them to 'fit', or make sense in any bigger narrative- other than the one being told at the time. If next week we got a story in which Dredd were revealed to have been a lady all these years, and the story was a good one, that would be fine. The story is all that matters.

SBT
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 July, 2021, 09:49:17 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2053 - Lots of Wrath

Prog 2053 has lots of interesting elements to it that have really wind folks up and what interesting is the thoughts on one person on these... and that person is ME... well of course its not me, rather its the fact that I bet everyone reacts to the different things in different ways.

We start as early as the cover.
http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?choice=2053&Comic=2000ad (http://www.2000ad.org/functions/cover.php?choice=2053&Comic=2000ad)

Its a terrible but of design to my eye. The central image - a ghost - in the old school sense of a floating sheet - kinda, sorta bursting out of the page at you. And if the ete had been looking at the reader it might have worked, alas they aren't they're, the eyes staring up and right out the top of the Prog. In addition there's a bloody hard box with a different tagline to that which relates to the ghost - why???? The edge of that looks like late 90s word art and is sorted shadowed, blurred... something. Ouch. It really doesn't work for me.

I bet some folks love it!

Then we get to Dredd and more specifically Simon Roy's art on Dredd (https://2000ad.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ec-11.jpg). I remember much MUCH snarling and rage at his art. Particularly a panel featuring a tech Judge smoking a cigarette. Now its not 'typical' Dredd art, but then what is? Its entirely fine to dislike art, but disliking art in 2000ad for being different just strikes me weird. Its not my favourite Dredd art ever but I absolutely welcomed it as something fresh - which is damned hard to do with Dredd!

I get some folks hated it.

Finally we get to Indigo Prime and Kek-W taking over the writing from the brilliant John Smith. Now I don't want to rake up the ins and outs of why John was replaced, that's well rehearsed and of course folks are welcome to an opinion on the rights and wrongs involved there. Folks are also entirely welcome to not like what Kek-W writes - I must admit here he does seem to be trying a little too hard to channel John rather than take the essence and do his own thing... mind doing his own thing would have got him into an entirely different type of trouble...

No all of that is fine. To not like his writing BECAUSE he has taken from John Smith, or to just blank it and make judgement on an assumption just strike me as weird. And I recall this happening A LOT in various parts of the internet... now how well he uses the other John Smith character he introduces next Prog... well that for a later post

I fret some folks would care either way!

So yeah I have a view on a LOT in Prog 2053 and I know a lot of folks will have likewise. I'd bet it won't be like my view. 2000ad at its very best encourages diversity of fans and that brings a diversity of opinion that I adore. No other comics would have an issue like 2053 - I beat - that would delight and divide, antagonise and appease in equal measure. Some things only 2000ad can do, for good or ill.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 09 July, 2021, 05:30:38 AM
The Simon Roy art reminds me of the artwork on the IDW Dredd series Mega-City Zero. I did not enjoy both but then again that is the beauty of the anthology setup where a new artist can be put to the test for one episode.

The rest of the prog was quite interesting as well: I liked the Slaine (the font choices where the fun one in this series), Kek-W was busy with his second stab at Indigo (he for me did a good job on the whole Indigo series not bad at all), the rest where good as well Rennie and Abnett doing their normal thing.

So yes not a bad prog at all.........
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 09 July, 2021, 07:07:47 AM
That cover personally was one of those covers which just did not work for me. I do no like to use this word "Bad" since Ben Willsher is a great artist but that is how I felt about it.

(https://images.rebellion.click/productVersion/88/52/00.default.jpg)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: norton canes on 09 July, 2021, 10:50:02 AM
Heh, I haven't visited this thread in ages (sorry, only because I rarely venture into the 'Other Reviews' section) and when I do it's just in time for The Simon Roy Dredd. So I'll just say that as a fan of Prophet I was thrilled to see Simon (or should I call him 'the Roy droid'?) take on a Dredd, and for me the results were fantastic. Did he get the styling of the Judges quite right? Perhaps not, but his realisations of the aliens and their tech more than made up for it. Besides, how many great art droids have turned in slightly 'off' work on their first Dredds, only to go on and nail it after a few progs? The only shame was that Roy couldn't come back and do a few more.

That cover is a bit pants though.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 July, 2021, 11:05:27 AM
Quote from: norton canes on 09 July, 2021, 10:50:02 AM
Heh, I haven't visited this thread in ages (sorry, only because I rarely venture into the 'Other Reviews' section) ...

No one should ever, EVER feel the need to apologise for not reading my mindless drivel!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 July, 2021, 03:31:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Its the end of 2017 as we know and the dog surfing is fine.

There is much to talk about in the Progs running to the end of 2017 - but the thing I remember causing most kaffuffle was Dredd surfing a dog down a slue of molten iron(ish) stuff. I mean its silly, hyper-dynamic nonsense but we've seen Dredd do all sorts of silly hyper-dynamic nonsense a million times before, so quite why this one kicked off such a fuss is beyond me.

Now Dredd using meteors as targeted weapons - that is just bonkers... all this takes place in the first story of Mike Carroll's Russia story arc - Black Snow with the magnificent as ever PJ Holden on art duties. As you might be able to tell its all rather high tension, high tempo Dredd as action movie nonsense and frankly it works perfectly well in that context.

Elsewhere Simon Davis' time on Slaine comes to an end with his art being as magnicient and perfect for Slaine as it always was. Alas the story has continued its decline into over long Millsian trope, after over long Millsian trope. Such a shame the art didn't find a better platform.

Grey Area has another magnificent storyline as desert warfare goes wrong in the four part storyline Homeland Security in Progs 2050 - 2053.

Sinister Dexter really builds momentum (which will alas be lost down the line as I recall) as Steve Yeowell doubles down on this fantastic work on the strip with the brilliant fast food war in 'Aztex Comeraderie' (one of Dabnett's more stretched puns) still this series has a big place somewhere in my heart and at this point we were oblivious to the problems the epic Bulletopia would have getting going. The build up will be so good, we'll be in dreamland for a couple more years yet.

There's some really nice, really nice one offs, showcasing Sinister Dexter's great versatilty. As the epic overarching story steadily builds we get the glorious 'The Sights' which reads like one of those Dredd episode's in a launch Prog designed to introduce new readers to the world and character. All elevated by fantastic Steve Yeowell art. In 'Billie No Mates' Paul Marshall drops in on art duty, and drops in reference from the strip's rich history - I particularly like the way he drew Billie's shrink in an Andy Clarke style making it clear its the same shrink Ramone saw back in the day - in a story that sets the scene and builds the underpinning tension for what's to come next. Both superb. This really is a golden time for S&D.

'Absalom - Terminal Diagnosis' is another delight in this run of Progs.What struck me was how focused the the storyline in this series is. Read in this condensed way - the way a re-read will allow you - I've realised while it builds and develops steadily its always got a razorsharp focus on the underpinning aim of building a team to rescue the titular 'hero's' grandchildren from the Satanic Mills. Its superb stuff.

There is also some wishy washy filler towards the end of the year.

All of which is lovely but what I've really come to discuss (though I'm not sure I'll have as much to say as I have about the other stuff!) is Indigo Prime - A Dying Art. As Kek-W takes over writing duties after two episode's from John Smith the series, as far as I'm concerned, remains on high ground, even if you think Tharg has slipped from his by passing it on after John Smith felt he needed to move on. There is no denying Kek-W sometimes leans a little too hard into the interesting technobabble - which can feel even more forced way that John Smith can do. It does give the series an almost poetic edge to it.

The hyper-reality is still - somehow - amazingly realised by Lee Carter. I sometimes wonder what he must go through when he gets a script, reads it and - in my head - he sits back in his chair, a cold sweat breaking out on his forehead... muttering to himself "I gotta try and draw what now... I gotta draw what..." ... slowly shaking his head "...and PJ complains about how he's gotta draw Dredd surfin' on a dog down some lava or whatever... he has no idea..."

Still it looks amazing and he delievers everything asked of him.

My one real beef however is the introduction of Revere. Now Kek-W taking over the strip is one thing, Tharg and he must have reflected that to pull in another John Smith character would be like poking a hornet's nest over in social media land. But you know what if it felt like it was needed I'd have been fine with it. Its just that it doesn't really. It feels all a bit unnecessary. It doesn't really add anything and certainly nothing that means it had to be that character. With such a rich tapestry of characters already to hand, or who could be added reviving Revere just seems a little lazy and sensationist to me. Its a real shame as it leaves a black cloud over an otherwise promising series.

And so 2017 ends, not with a whimper but with the enraged crash of keyboard typing as we social media critics rally and scream about the bits we don't like - and praise and draw fonted swords for the bits we do... and they say 2000ad doesn't have attitude anymore!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 July, 2021, 07:52:35 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

FCBD Specia....

So like I read the FCDB issue, now compressed into a nicely bound US sized bundle... which is a real shame (and forced on Rebellion as I recall) as it means the FCDB doesn't stand out quite as much as it has in previous years. That said its still head and shoulders above the rest (well the one's I've picked up) brimming with fantastic new content the way it does. New Dredd (very good Dredd too from Matt 'Tharg's little helper' Smith and Phil Winslade), decent Anderson and a fantastic Blackblood story by Uncle Pat and Kei Zama. A story reminds us that while Uncle Pat can make a LOT of misteps these days when on form the man's still a wonder. There's nice reprint material too.

Its a fantastic baggage.

And so I was reved up for the Specials.... but there weren't any... what... huh.... well okay I'd read the 40th Special in place but there was nowt else. Weird. I've got used to there being LOTS of specials and thought that kicked off around this time. But no the 40th took this years Special slot and nowt else...

HOWEVER (http://however) a lovely 1 page story by Henry Flint in the back of that wonderful FCBD issue tells us why. The story marks the purchase of the Treasury of British comics and the wonderful things that will give us. There are more Rebellion specials. there's a Scream and Misty Special this year BUT this is a Prog Re-read and as such these fall outside the remit and will have to wait for another time.

There will be no glut of specials... just as the glut of specials indeed begins.

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 August, 2021, 07:45:16 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2017

ARRRRHHH how could I do this. Just started reading 2018 and released i didn't round of 2017... stupid me.

So lets look back quickly and to be honest its been quite interesting to quickly look back and see what we got in the 40th year of this glorious comic. Of course we start with my predictions:

QuoteWe are also in an extended period of celebration with Prog 2000 leading nicely the 40th birthday and I think just has 2016 has lived up to the scale of the task building up to this period, so 2017 will be up to the task of taking these new heights forward and sustaining the new higher ground.

2017 was another... just another ... great year. Not without its wobbles of course, but what 2000ad year doesn't have those. What matters however is how much the strip isn't just leaning in on the old classics. In fact Mr Mills is starting to wrap some up - even if he doesn't know it yet and that's, sadly a good thing in my mind. As some of the older strips are getting tired the space they leave opens gaps for 2000ad to do what its does best and that's continue to push forward. After forty years its the change and innovation that still stands out and that is incredible.

I mean really incredible.

2017 is a year of celebration and the comic lives up to that. What's most important though is it does rest on that. Fantastic year.

in 2018 that isn't going to change. The comic will start to lose strips from one of its masters. The king may be dead (well not yet!) but long live the Prog as the strenght and momentum its established under Rebellion drive it forward to what I think will be more and more great thrills. the big difference in 2018 over older Golden stuff is we've got used to the quality and take it a bit for granted and I'll try to look at 2018 with fresh eyes, however much it buffers against the now and review it for what it will be... which I think will be great.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Anthony Garnon on 07 August, 2021, 09:49:52 AM
Don't forget the Dark Judges strip from New Scientist!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 August, 2021, 10:17:15 AM
Quote from: Anthony Garnon on 07 August, 2021, 09:49:52 AM
Don't forget the Dark Judges strip from New Scientist!

Oh good call. I should have dug that out as part of the read and call it a special...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: PsychoGoatee on 08 August, 2021, 03:54:32 AM
Good stuff, cool to see so much prog reading and thrill zarjazness. I'm aiming to read more comics (and 2000AD especially) this year, so it's always inspiring to see fans who have read so much.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2021, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 08 August, 2021, 03:54:32 AM
Good stuff, cool to see so much prog reading and thrill zarjazness. I'm aiming to read more comics (and 2000AD especially) this year, so it's always inspiring to see fans who have read so much.  :thumbsup:

Many (at least in my house) think I read too many!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 August, 2021, 11:26:53 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2021, 08:54:26 PM
Many (at least in my house) think I read too many!

But, presumably, you didn't think it too many. ;)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 August, 2021, 06:19:50 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 August, 2021, 11:26:53 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 August, 2021, 08:54:26 PM
Many (at least in my house) think I read too many!

But, presumably, you didn't think it too many. ;)

Man that I didn't land that line just goes to show how much I've fallen out of love with Slaine!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 August, 2021, 10:03:18 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

East, East...and... East...

As we enter 2018 Prog 2061 has two ongoing thrills - which really cements the regular Prog in beautiful bumper sized form. We'll take about Bad Company when that done. The second is a fascinating failure in Mike Carroll's second stab at an epic... or is it an Epic? Mike Carroll covers JD's adventures across Russia in Black Snow (at the end of 2017) with PJ Holden, Echoes (which starts in the bumer 2061) with Colin MacNeil and The Shroud which runs up to 2068 with Paul Davison. So at 14 parts it feels like its trying to be significent. It has the through thread of ... well being in Russia and some interesting themes in Echoes suggest its trying to be something... but it fails.

It drifts from story to story and the only real consistant theme is how bad ass Dredd is. In a way it falls into the trap of the worst of Garth Ennis stuff. Just focusing on how bloody hard he is. There's not enough variety to make it really an exploration of the setting in the way Cursed Earth and similar stories are. Its just these three stories, hung together and I can't get a sense of what the idea was.

So when I say fascinating I mean frustrating. The individual stories aren't quite enough to be worth it and the collective somehow makes them lesser. Given how much I've enjoyed much of Mike Carroll's Dredd I can't ignore this... and yet I don't have anything useful to say...

Neither does a similar story in ABC Warriors where Uncle Pat might have themes but they are long played out and the truth of the matter is its just this string of set pieces and Robots being tougher than tough but not engaging at all and the whole thing just not hanging together as anything of value...

... man am I being a negative nelly... well I'll make it back with the good to balance it out as Brass Sun and Savage provide the real contrast and Bad Company an intriguing middle ground.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2021, 09:25:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

take me Back to the Future 3

So the other side of the draw then, from 2018's opening line-up and all three of these thrills leave us here, for the time being at least and I feel like they end too soon... well maybe one  we need to examine that a little more closely... or maybe two...

Bad Company - Terrorists is the awkward second album (if there is such a thing!). They got the band back together and it worked really well. The ideas of the first return story really worked. It played with typical Pete Milligan themes, identity, the truth and the driver of the original Bad Company what war does to your humanity. It did it wonderfully, for all the fury it drew from some quarters. The idea that Kano was a methaphor for the brutality of war and of course that the first victim of war was truth and indeed that war is the construct of stories and ideas that powerful folks want us to believe for me quickly dismissed the idea that so many folks seem to rall against, that we 'knew' most of the characters to be dead and now they were back.

It worked in that earlier story and here, the awkward second album, they throw more of what worked the first time. Ideas and themes that explained why we had our legends back. The trouble is the first story did it so well we didn't need it again and this one didn't really draw out new ideas and felt like it was treading the same ground and that's just so unMilligan.

So why then would I want more, well I feel it set up more, it got that retread out the way and Pete Milligan could have taken us to new territory in the way a story like 'Kano' did (I love 'Kano' I should note) and so I'd welcome this back. Alas I wonder if we'll ever know.

Savage - The Thousand Year Stare, not the strongest of Savage stories as it turned Bill into the story that Uncle Pat is doing elsewhere... in fact in this very run of comics with ABC Warriors. But I'd always welcome Savage back as it a wonderful strip and when it pulls Pat to do different things and play with Bill as a character if works wonderfully. His madness is bubbling up in this one and its that which makes me want it back. It may well go down ideas that Pat has made trite now. BIG BUSINESS BAD. THE ESTABLISHMENT BAD... you know what Uncle Pat we got that, we got that 10 - 20 years ago and not from just you. We need to move on. If he's dialed that down and used The Complex as just a villian with which he could explore Bill and his new companion Nika this series still has places to go. I love the idea of a Bill Savage romance story. Come on Uncle Pat write me that as your swan song for this series. Bill deserves it.

The saddest lose though is Brass Sun - which I'm sure will come back, but its hard waiting 3 1/2 years. Especially since this story opened up so much new space. The series has played with scene shifts mid series before, but the one here explodes things. The world shattering end to the first half of the story is thrilling and brilliant, The leap forward deftly executed and Ian Edginton and INJ Culbard so skillfully spring us forward, yet leave us no gaps (well except killing Ramkin off panel - that was almost unforgivable). They set up so much more I want to explore ... and we are robbed... okay that give INJ time to do Brink BUT I WANT BOTH!!! I love Brass Sun. I love where Engine Summer took us and were it pointed ahead to what might be. Tharg bring this one back PLEASE. I need to know we've not lost Septimus entirely... I need it to do what it promising and be 'Coming Soon'.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 August, 2021, 05:43:44 AM
Brass Sun I am really missing this series. Hopefully we can get it sooner than later but with Cullbard doing Brink as well it looks bleak. Now this is were I am asking certain question like how can Skip Tracer get a series ever 6 months and we have to wait years for quality series like: Brass Sun, Kingdom even Brink now?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2021, 09:00:38 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Just wanted to pop on and make very quick mention of the Future Shock - Sunday Scientist which introduced Laura Bailey and Paul Williams after the Though Bubble droid pitch thingies (actually was Paul Williams discovered that way??? am i misremembering?). I remember being shocked by it when first reading it AND damn it loses none of its impact on second read.

"If you really care about the planet and our child's future..."

Is all the more chilling when you know the ending. How is this not a Terror Tale you gloriously nasty, nasty people!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 14 August, 2021, 10:51:35 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 14 August, 2021, 05:43:44 AM
Now this is were I am asking certain question like how can Skip Tracer get a series ever 6 months and we have to wait years for quality series like: Brass Sun, Kingdom even Brink now?

The most prolific writers simply spread themselves too thinly. Abnett (for instance) has Lawless, Sin/Dex, The Out, Kingdom, Feral & Foe, Brink, Grey Area...; James Peaty's only got Skip Tracer and Diamond Dogs going on. And (whatever his other failings) he's clearly prolific. Tharg knows that when he asks Peaty and Marshall for a 9-part Skip Tracer series to plug a gap after Stickleback or Brass Sun's been delayed for the umpteenth time, they're going to deliver promptly and keep him from having to put progs with blank pages on newsagent's shelves.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2021, 03:48:07 PM
Quite clever, I suppose. The 90s had Dry Run, Trash, Grudge-Father, Babe Race etc. Now we just have Skipper Trace over and over again. Saves a lot on logos.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 14 August, 2021, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2021, 03:48:07 PM
Quite clever, I suppose. The 90s had Dry Run, Trash, Grudge-Father, Babe Race etc. Now we just have Skipper Trace over and over again. Saves a lot on logos.

A lightning rod of mediocrity.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 August, 2021, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 14 August, 2021, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 August, 2021, 03:48:07 PM
Quite clever, I suppose. The 90s had Dry Run, Trash, Grudge-Father, Babe Race etc. Now we just have Skipper Trace over and over again. Saves a lot on logos.

A lightning rod of mediocrity.

I'll stand up for Skipperty, certainly in relation to those. Skippy has had a couple of decent stories ( as I recall the second story was actively good, the last one not too bad at all and the current one fridging aside pretty decent to.) and was never as actively offensive as Babe Race 2000.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 14 August, 2021, 06:18:35 PM
I do not mind Skip Tracer I only questioned why it got so many series in a short time and a lot of my favorites do not get the same love. The second series as you state was good and the last few was not bad either.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 August, 2021, 09:10:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

All it takes is one shot - Sinister Ddexter

Prog 2073 is a nice package. A good launch Prog, a little hit and miss, but we'll get to that when we get to discussing the line-up. What I want to focus on here is to dismiss the idea that Sinister Dexter has had it day. The evidence for the defense. One shot, over 41 panels (there are two panels at the start that stop it being 5, 9 panel pages straight) in 'The Salad of Bad Cafe.'.

Its a simple character piece that as our pair sit and wait for a hit to leave a building opposite the 'Mucnhbox' cafe. The two chew the fat as they wait. Its a fantastic, hilarious interchange that reveals so much about the pair. It sets out the world and their current circumstance to new readers.

It also makes clear that when Dabnett is given the window of chance, a good artist and however many panels as he needs this strip is as magic as its always been. The run of stories this sets up is some of my favourite S&D. And sure it might have gone a bit off the boil in the last year, just as it was meant to cook up a storm but it will get that back. Be it in 5 pages or 25 parts. This remains a wonderful strip by a wonderful writer, it just needs the window through which it can shine.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: MumboJimbo on 17 August, 2021, 10:00:21 PM
I agree, Colin, a great strip!

The title, in case you didn't know, is a pun of a 1954 Novella by Carson McCullers called The Ballad of Sad Cafe, which was made into a film in 1991 with Venessa Redgrave and Keith Carradine. I have neither read nor seen it/them. Presumably, 70s soft rock band Sad Cafe were also named after it, whose song Every Day Hurts instantly transports me to listening to the Terry Wogan breakfast radio show when I was about 6. "Every single day! Every single day!..."

All together now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIgTBz7GeM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIgTBz7GeM)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2021, 09:10:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2081 - The end

There's a number of beginning in Prog 2081 but we'll come back to that next time as more significently this will be the Prog that marks the saddest of ending as 'Strontium Dog - The Son' draws to a close and will mark the last story completed by Carlos Ezquerra something that will shock us in a few months after we read this. Its hard therefore to read this strip objectively, so much is wrapped in it.

The ending feels perfect for the story. Carlos who gave us so much, birthed so many great stories, doesn't end with an ending as such. Rather it ends with a world of possiblities, with the potential for new stories opening up in front of us. New chapters waiting to be told. We will never get them, but so many wonders and marvel's sprang from his creative genius its a beautiful ending that opens the possiblity of more to come. So fitting.

That's the good part. Time also brings honest appraisal and while the ending is great and the idea of the story, Wulf's son seeking Johnny's approval and possible tutoring. Johnny's fear and guilt almost closing that door its great. It just at times I find the execution a little clumsy. The story rushes around. The introduction of Silverman right at the end, a giant robot villain of astonishing repute - so much so to claim a 20,000,000 bounty - feels like its going to open a new section to the story. Instead he's shown to be terrible in the most simplistic way - he buys a slave just to torture him - and then is dispatched in just a couple of pages with an almost Scooby Doo caper involving giant magnets is so horribly old school. Its really clunky.

Of course that old school speedy episode at the end, just as a new beginning harkens to the stories of old and the previous start of the series. So of course its a piece of genius BUT alas read as a story now still a clumsy piece of genius!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 19 August, 2021, 09:58:38 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2021, 09:10:12 PM
'Strontium Dog - The Son'... So of course its a piece of genius BUT alas read as a story now still a clumsy piece of genius!

I know that it was brought forward in the schedule to plug a gap when Ben Willsher injured himself and Durham Red fell through, explaining Carlos' art looking a bit rushed. I do wonder if it was written in a hurry as well; is that even possible?

It's quite a decompressed strip, epsecially if you compare it to the likes of The Life and Death of Johnny Alpha. There generally aren't too many panels to a page. And it breaks the internal logic of the world a little - for instance, the big joke of The Shicklgruber Grab is that nobody in the future knows (or cares) who Hitler is. But in The Son you have an awed Kenton asking Johnny if he and Wulf really did go after Adolf Hitler himself.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 August, 2021, 09:17:13 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 19 August, 2021, 09:58:38 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2021, 09:10:12 PM
'Strontium Dog - The Son'... So of course its a piece of genius BUT alas read as a story now still a clumsy piece of genius!

I know that it was brought forward in the schedule to plug a gap when Ben Willsher injured himself and Durham Red fell through, explaining Carlos' art looking a bit rushed. I do wonder if it was written in a hurry as well; is that even possible?


I'd completely forgotten that... testament to my memory again then!

We'll get into the new line up, including Durham Red in a bit as its probably the strongest of 2018 to date. Just wanted to fly by and give mention to 'The Gangbusters' that Sinister Dexter were they fly in the AI WWII planes and Ray starts to see his own thought ballons. Damn this phase of S&D is superb fun.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 August, 2021, 09:18:50 PM
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png[/img

Classic 5 and 5 parters travelling in time

I mean there was a good post title somewhere - I'm just to tired and grumpy to be bothered to find it.

Why is there a good title? Well we have a superb 6 part Survival Geeks story 'Geek Con' that riffs not only off fan nerd culture, but more significently Doctor Who. While in Dredd we have a wonderful tale by Mike Carroll and Jake Lynch - The Paradigm Shift which moves across two time frames as Dredd uncovers leftovers from the Justice Department's earliest days.

The Survival Geeks story is light and buzzy fun done incredibly well. It balances the light and buzzy - on re-read I didn't always get this when read originally - perfectly by making the tongue thrust so violently into its cheek absolutely razersharp. its funny and cutting and while it does just cut into fanboy culture and the things we love it does it very, very well. Oh and the character stuff between Simon and Sam is just fantastic... Speaking of fantastic Neil Googe's art is just devine. Why don't we hail him as a master yet?

Over in Dredd there another fine balancing act as Mike Carroll takes us back to Deacon and the origins of the Justice system and covered (I believe) in his 'Judges' novels while crafting a fantastic Dredd story. The way he interweaves the two tales is a fine piece of craft. Each story allowed to follow its own path, but with echo and beats that allow them to be perfectly interconnected. Its a mini masterclass and reminds us as the disappointing Russian romp just why Mike Carroll is so rated as a Dredd writer.

Just like Survival Geeks the art - this time by Jake Lynch is also superb. - This for me is the story were Lynch really comes into his own. Its an artist we've seen develop in front of us and here that development hits his potential for the first time. I think in part as he works so well with colour. Whether that is reason or its just his confidence hits at the same time as the colour I'm not sure. Either way this is an artistic treat.

So two wonderful time trippin' stories in 5 or 6 parts, so maybe I'm tired but with stories this good there absolutely no reason to be grumpy!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 August, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Skip to the end

So lets get to it, I mean its not like its not been discussed to death elsewhere but since I'm doing a re-read I want to do a bit of thinking about why Skip Tracer doesn't work... before we get to the second story which I think does work!

1. Its not the art - Paul Marshall does a great job.

2. Its the fact that 'The Cube' the settling for the series just not properly introduced and formed. It presented to us as if its this cool place, like Mega City One or Downlobe. But we're given nothing to understand it, to gain insight into what it is - other than a big place thats a bit rough. We have nothing to understand what makes it tick. So in part its that.

3. The events just happen. I mean Nolan gets attacked by a minataur - that should be cool right, but again no time for context or build up. Or to understand the minataur is kick ass. It just turns up, like The Cube, its just assumed we think its cool. Then its done. This happens time and again. So in part its that.

4. The twist are just... well dances we've done before. So in part its that.

5. Nolan himself - damn he's so there. He's just angry and hard and full on old school action movie one liners. Like 'The Cube', like the events, like the twists we have nothing new and nothing to make us care.

6. But the main thing is the context it finds itself. Put this in the 800s or 900s would we feel than same way. I mean it wouldn't be the best strip. It wouldn't be the strip we look at and thing - thank fuck for John Smith and Skip Tracer. But it would be in the ball park of things that were okay. That kept the Prog full and ticking along.

Skip Tracer isn't that bad. its just there's so much around it now that's so much better. I've got so used to the quality that a strip like this that isn't terrible and isn't great, a strip that feels stayed stands out like a sore thumb. And that's damning with faint praise if ever I typed it.

Okay so we've done why Skip Tracer isn't that good. I've got that off my back. When it returns later this year I'm looking forward to seeing why the second story works. As that will be much more interesting.

Oh and while I'm at it the new Durham Red - Born Bad shows how to do a good 90s action movie. This thrill might have need an artistic save when Ben Wilsher had to unfortunately step aside BUT GOOD GOD DAMN Lee Carter does a good save. And the story is just... well exactly fantastic its so solidly great it just feels fantastic. It kinda Skip Tracer done but not trying 2, earning all the events in 3. Making the big 4 work a treat - I'm not your mum is just great and damn does it do 5 better. We are made to care about Durham and the torment she goes through and that makes things that happen to her, those earnt things matter and us care... maybe I don't need to wait for the next story to find out what will make Skip Tracer work, maybe I was reading it alongside it!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 01 September, 2021, 09:19:59 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Kek-w isn't pants

See that works cos were I come from Kecks means pants, as in trouser. As in 'Man your kecks are terrible', so see... okay okay, it wasn't worth it.

We had a Kek-W power hour (to use the terms of Space spinner) during the run into 2100, as for a number of issues both Fall of Deadworld and The Order both run in the Prog and they shine, even against some great thrills. Folks often seem befuddled by The Order and if I'm honest it can take me a couple of goes to catch up. Put a little effort in and its all there and its all wonderfully inventive fun, with great characters and fantastic crazy action. What's not to love. And as for it being complex. Well one page at the end 'The New World' gets you up to speed. Ritterstahl comes back*

"Francis Bacon is no longer our ally, but a dangerous enemy. He commands an army of automata - weapons from beyond this era! If he has allied himself with the shadow agent George Washington..."

"...then all space and time are in peril."

See in three panels up to speed, with the essentials at least. Shame it was at the end of a story not at the start of the next, might have stopped some of the doubters.

Now 'Fall of Deadworld' does get into this trouble, folks seems to love it and this is the one, even on re-read, I sometimes struggle with. The also Romanic struggles for power within Sidney's ranks, the Goths amassing at the gates ... well the Sovs anyway... and assasins breaking in to shake things up... there's a heck of a lot to keep up with. Yet it is all wonderful stuff. Its the zombie apocolypse dialed up to 12teen.

Kek-W rocks and both strips look superb and read a dream - literally sometimes. Its brilliant stuff.

Oh and that other stuff these strips sit beside. Fantastic Grey Area as Grell goes all Black Ops and takes control two of our squad. Survival Geeks in full pelt crazy slasher fun. I can't tell you how much more I appreciate this one on re-read. There's more but also the end of the 'Sons of Booth' story line. Its been a fun ride, alas it doesn't quite stick the landing - like so many perps having their pink bouncy armour switched off, but it gets close and it fun. Just goes quite live up to the build up. There is some great stuff in the run up to 2100 BUT its nothing compared to what's coming when we hit that Prog... but that's for next time...

*The original one who Anna feel in love with... and only kinda comes back... well it couldn't be straight forward could it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 September, 2021, 09:15:42 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Raising the dead

The brief return of Fiends of the Eastern Front in 1812 is so perfect that it almost cruel that its so short. The art David Taylor is stupendous the story sharp and chilling (as well as chilly). The set up of Constanta as romantic 'hero' is so 2000ad. The set up of Babba Yaga as supreme villain is deft as it is short lived and animals will never creep out the forest this well again... well until Thistlebone... which is quite soon... but the fact that 2000ad has two such majestic animals creeping out the woods moments so soon is testiment to what it does so well... and its not just the animals... or the creeping.

Its does tone, tension and atmosphere wonderfully, across a range of story type. That this thin sliver of genius standout amongst the glories that surround it - and they are glories in The Small House, Kingdom and Brink ... and Skip Tracer is great too ... is a small wonder...

Wayhey see what I did.

This line-up is quite something.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 September, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Small Change

So what makes Skip Tracer - Legion work when the previous story didn't. Well the story builds around Nolan, it give us a hook to care and move - or at least give the illusion of moving him forward as a character. It doesn't really - but it creates that illusion for the story at least. Nolan's brother is held captive and used by the titular Legion to ... do stuff. Nolan is moody and grumpy but given something to care about that seems to work. It makes sense and so creates an illusion of change that masks the strips weakness in other tales. It makes this story work.

The other change is the tale ejects The Cube, this environment, this massive city in space that's meant to be such a thing. In only the second story of the series, this starring place is cast aside. This opens the way to mindscape and frankly a fair more interesting space and situation. It really works, in a way The Cube, doesn't. So yeah this story is made much more fun and entertaining with only small changes, and I really liked it. Alas these small changes don't amount to anything in the long term.

Over in Dredd - Small House we see an example of how small changes over time, carefully constructed and work can have impact. Smiley is a character dropped into the big world of Mega City One and while he shakes things up its the shifting patterns on the characters around him that have the impact. The final small pieces that 'end' Dirty Frank's story. The shift in Gerhart's tale, the small shift in the way we percieve the Apocolypse War ... okay okay. The Small House isn't a story of small shifts and change. Its a mighty smash of lots of blockbuster moments crashed together ... but I wanted to try to link these two and we had the word 'small' so I tried to go for it.

Its bloody brilliant fun though. Oh and it does have a lovely hommage to a place that truly is a character in tale in a glorious moment when Sam sees the wonder of Mega City One, in the way we have yet to see any wonder in The Cube!

There is another small link I can crank in as Intestanauts get a cute little 3riller. Its of little consequence, but that no big deal when the story is this much fun.

I'm getting out of here on that as there's only a small chance of me pulling this one together!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 September, 2021, 08:58:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Ending on a high and sneeking in a start

I've been whittering away about the closing line-up 2018 for a few posts now and that's because its great. I mean when you need filler so we get double lenght Sinister Dexter at its modern peak we are in a good place.

I've talked a lot about the stuff I've loved and I've not really mentioned the two best strips.

'Brink - High Society' is superb but is only half way through as we get to the X-Mas issue so that one will have to wait. So the star turn goes to Kingdom - Alpha and Omega which brings Kingdom to a very satisfying end, even though we've been promised its not - just like Brass Sun it been almost three years and nowts come back and all creators are busy on other, typically wonderful, things and so who know. Brass Sun we need back as that one doesn't end well. If this is the end of Gene's tale its a good ending, well and ending about none of the struggle ending. Just the opponents evolve and that leads onto the next phase of their endless war.

Gene's time is done and he walks away to continue his endless struggle, simple to survive, we don't need to know more. Humankinds endless struggle against the animal forces of 'nature' moving past Gene and his kind. A perfect ending to the futile Gene that started Gene's time in the Prog... I mean don't get me wrong I'd have it back in a heartbeat, I love this strip. But if it must end let's end it here, it works really well.

Oh and another note about Prog 2110, that ends 2018, Kingdom (for now?) also slips in a start I completely missed. Did you lot all know Judge Kirby (from Department K) appeared in a one-off Dredd in this issue ... me I missed it... and in typing that and the way Kirby is introduced here, Dredd saying

QuoteShould've known you'd be involved in this, Kirby.

Suggests I've missed another appearance? In the Meg maybe? Anyway she appears, burns brightly for a page and then disappears awaiting a Regened in a good few issues time. Worth the wait, great character but if this was an introduction, damn is it a curious one.

What have I missed?

Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 September, 2021, 01:53:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

FCBD and Special 2018

2018 was a pretty momentus year for specials and FCBD in terms of innovation and change.

Firstly the Sci-Fi Special was an all female creators issue - the fact that this needs to be done is a massive shame. The fact that there are so few woman who have worked on the Prog is something Tharg is still having to work on and a blight on the Galaxies Greatest. So while efforts like this are to be applauded, the fact that it was so necessary is a crying shame.

Mind even if it wasn't it needed, it would still have been worth it to see the gammons exploding in rage that there little boys club was being invaded by 'stinky girls'. And falling over themselves to prove how unsexist and blinkered they were, while very often showing just how small minded and sexist they actually are.

The comic itself, like so many specials, was hit and miss. Some great stuff, some not so great.

The FCBD was immense fun, I think lots of folks found it immense fun, as Regened was born. From tiny acorns do great oaks of derision grow.

The fun experiment was so successful (or was it predestined already???) that Regene have been a thing ever since and another thing the more conservative (small 'c') of 2000ad fandom get all explodely and annoyed and furious about. Chests are puffed out, cheeks are flushed as folks proclaim WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO GET THESE. Or rage on all parts of the Internet about the fact they've been reading the comic since Prog 1 - when it was a... child's comic... why are they having to read this comic for children now. Once that is out the way ... if not resolved ... there is stamping of feet and tantrums about the child's comic 40 years after they were reading children's comics having changed and where do those fools at Rebellion get the ideas that kids today might want something different to what they were reading 40 years ago. After all nothing has changed in those 40 years and Angry from Dullard is pretty sure the Kids all still love Pink Floyd and Swap Shop.

All this and folks forget how bloody amazing 'Chet Jetstream - Escape Hell Island' by Henry Flint was. how Matt Smith and Neil Googe nailed cadet Dredd - NuYNWA erroneously pointed out that this strip works best when examining the relationship between Dredd and Rico. Re-reading this today NuYNWA is reminded that Self absorbed YNWA (even the very recent version) knew better than him and Cadet Dredd works best when young Joe smacks bloody dinosaurs about the head! Everything in this  new fangled Regened pretty much hit the nail on the head and while the subsequent issues may have been more variable in quality they have been more good than bad.

So what do these issues teach us. Well yes 2000ad did used to be rebellious and anarkic. It did have a punk attitude and buck the establishment. And why do we know its still doing so under its new owners. Well of course 'cos all these new things they are doing are really bugging the more stayed elements of the establishment of 2000ad 40 year serving fans.

Long may it continue.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 September, 2021, 09:16:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2018

Quotein 2018 that isn't going to change. The comic will start to lose strips from one of its masters. The king may be dead (well not yet!) but long live the Prog as the strenght and momentum its established under Rebellion drive it forward to what I think will be more and more great thrills. the big difference in 2018 over older Golden stuff is we've got used to the quality and take it a bit for granted and I'll try to look at 2018 with fresh eyes, however much it buffers against the now and review it for what it will be... which I think will be great.

So those fresh eyes didn't get around to being opened on time and once again I miss my review of the year when I actually finish reading that years Progs. Still the short distance in time between then and now makes it hard to specify now good, or great.

The Prog in 2018 is in fine form. Strips are coming and going... and in the going we should have a problem, but we don't. As Kingdom and Brass Sun roll out Fiends and Durham Red roll back in. So its always been. 2000ad is about flux and change, as is about up and downs. I guess judging 2018 (and indeed any modern year) as a year in thrillpower is about judging Skip Tracer. Why Skip Tracer, well maybe rather than looking at the highs and there are many, we need to examine the lows and see how much differential is.

In 2018 Skip Tracer is a mixed bag. The first story is pretty bland, the second story pretty good... and this is the low really, well along with the lower end of Uncle Pat's range. Is it really as bad it was in the old days. Is Skip Tracer and the worst of Uncle Pat's stuff really as bad as the lows of previous times. Well no, no its not. Its difficult to judge though as the comics and indeed comics in general are so vastly improved in terms of the developing craft that the comparison is difficult. The same is true in other media. Entertainment has grown, tv is smarter, sharper in its writing, has nicer production values... but is it better? Objectively yes it is, in terms of entertainment, well I guess that depends in where your heads at and how you are able to detach nostaglia and the foundations of what you find entertaining... and there's where objective view is almost impossible to get, a clear view so baffled by noise.

So you ask simple questions, take it back to basics, is Skip Tracer better than Dry Run, or Grudge Father, Angel, or Mean Arena, or Mean Team or...well the list goes on and the answer is yes. Is Kingdom or Brink or... any number of others as good as Bad Company, or Halo Jones, or Leatherjack or... well any number, well that's trickier but if the answer isn't yes its damned close and the question is worth asking.

So the highs are as high, or near as damnit. The lows are no where near the lows and the Prog is still in a constant state of change and development. Its flux and change is based on an upward trajectory and I think 2018, and the eb and flow mentioned above, the fact that Brink is embedding and The Out is a couple of years off, just as Kingdom and Brass Sun 'rest' exemplify that. 2018 demonstrates that 2000ad is about as good as it ever been. The fact that entertainment and craft in the industries that create them have evolved and learnt from what's come before mean its probably better. The comic changes and sometimes change is hard, but when it is if you learn it is worth it and takes you to a better place.

So will 2019 be a better place as well, will the positive trajectory continue to drive up as the change continues. Well I think the answer will be yes. It won't be massive, it will be continual, subtle development, but I can already think of the good things that are coming and its hard to draw out the bad, aside from what have already identified. So yeah 2019 is going to be just another great year!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 19 September, 2021, 05:08:55 AM
Skip Tracer is some way has become one off the most "controversial" strips in the modern prog by simple being there. It is one of those series that splits the audience in half you get the group that outright hate it and others that do not mind it. I have even read a reviewer that talked about Skip Tracer as the "excellent" Skip Tracer but in most cases, it is just too generic.

As I already said I do not mind it. It certainly in my mind it does not match some of the 90s stuff, but I do not want it every second week. That is where my problem comes in with the strip since it has been publish too frequently the last few years. Nothing really stands-out that I want it every week. I would rather have other strips getting the opportunity to grow or even have a more regular run. Skip certainly has been the strip apart from Dredd that has the most appearances since its debut. 

I am still trying to figure out why the strip in general does not work, maybe the main protagonist is too much of a nothing character with no real personality (or in most cases he is a complete d**k). If you have a well-defined likable main lead, then I do not mind a generic sci-fi story.

Heavy is the Head (2018) prog 2081-2089 (9 eps)
Legion (2018) prog 2100-2108 (9 eps)
Louder than Bombs (2018-2019) prog 2111-2122 (12 eps)
Nimrod (2020) prog 2171-2180 (10 eps)
Hyperballad (2020) prog 2200-2209 (9 eps)
Eden (2021) prog 2238-2249 (12 eps)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 September, 2021, 07:09:25 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 19 September, 2021, 05:08:55 AM
I am still trying to figure out why the strip in general does not work, maybe the main protagonist is too much of a nothing character with no real personality (or in most cases he is a complete d**k). If you have a well-defined likable main lead, then I do not mind a generic sci-fi story.

Yeah I think there's all sorts of factors and these things are hard to define, but I do think this is the main one. He's like so many of the characters in strips that don't work from the early 90s. Junker, Trash etc - just a genric hard man. Hence the strip work when another character, family or someone under his protection is introduced as it gives you something to care about.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 September, 2021, 07:22:02 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2111

The bumper end of year (start of year) prog from 2018 into 2019 is well worth special mention. Mainly as it does a great job of feeling like a really special issue, not just because of it size. I mean it does the job of intoducing the new year very well and setting up the new line-up - or indeed ongoing line-up in the case of Brink with does that rarest of things these days of straddling the years - but it offers more.

For example in setting up the new year it gives us 20 pages Fiends of the Eastern Front - it been a long time since we've had a strip that long in the Prog. The introduction of Black Max justifies the sense of occasion and its a wonderful strip.

If Slaine's your thing seeing Chris Weston have a play in the Celt's garden is mighty fun.

The headliner is of course the strip that wraps up that plot thread in Caballistics Inc, introduced at the end of the final story. I'd settled with the fact that the zombie raising from the ground, threatening revenge at the very end of the final episode, when all other plot lines were resolved was a nod to the fact that when one danger is sorted it doesn't necessarily mean a neat ending and other things will be happening elsewhere, new threats will raise, new priorities come to the fore.

As it was with the publishing of 'The Complete Caballistics Inc' it seemed a fly in the ointment and so a tale to wrap it up was introduced. And it a neat, if slight one. What is great is its not just slotted in the the trade collection as a way to encourage sales. Rather presented on the Prog as an X-Mas gift for fans and included in the trade as well.

Nice touch Tharg and by doing that you underline the lovely vitalness of these bumper issues.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 September, 2021, 09:07:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Nobody top Kenneth

Prog 2113 marks one of the most significent addtions to Tharg's arsenal for sometime as Block Buds marks the enigma that is Kenneth Niemand's debut on Dredd. Its a superb, confident tale. Both classic and fresh as Niemand, with pitch perfect art from Jeff Anderson, introduces giant holographic AI friends to every Block in a test area, designed to help keep the mood of the citizens calmer and safer. It, of course all goes wrong but it such fun.

Its a great Dredd on anyones terms, but from a debut writer on the series... well we're coming back to that aren't we... Niemand had only done the Starlord strip in the 2017 bumper Prog ... unless you believe the conspiracy theroiests that is...

See much as its been a delight to see Niemand so quickly develop into one of the best Dredd writers for years it been as much fun trying to guess who Kenny Who really is. Some remain convinced it Grennie. Other refute the writing style make that a possiblity. If it is a known Droid an appearance on the Thrillcast by the erstwhile radio scripter under a nom-de-plume mean Tharg has gone to extreme lengths to dispell the guesses.

What fun.

Put what matters most is the Prog has gained a wonderful writer and for that Prog 2113 needs to be celebrated.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 20 September, 2021, 08:58:22 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Beyond the Brink

The thing about Brink is that it defies expectations. Its a slow paced procedural. It doesn't drip in thrillpowered action, rather close conversation. Its sources of tension aren't obvious, its the closely observed characters and their grinding dialogue building up their threat. The unknown, the close environments, the sense there is no escape. Then the unknowable scale of the cults beliefs and the har evidence slowly revealed. The unshakable belief of zealots though is all too knowable in this day and age.

None of this is typically 2000ad (which I suppose I have reflected is so very 2000ad).

All of this is in Brink - High Society and it does it so well, as it always does. The other thing is does, almost as if its pushing expectations to the Brink just to test things is give us a false ending. The double-sized conclusion in Prog 2116 as Kurtis fights against hallucinogenic gas, cultists and possibly unknownable powers. It dramatic and thrilling in true 2000ad style and of course in true Brink style therefore it can't be the end. It has the epilogue of Kurtis being filled in what happened in the 'showdown'. But no what the 'showdown' is the end is it. This is Brink and it takes us beyond. Rather than wrap up at the moment of maximum action and tension Brink pushes beyond and in the last episode, two episodes after the conclusion, just like Mercury vanishing in Book 1 it drops another intreging element. The possiblity that the enemy isn't the Old Gods (or is it?) rather the aliens from innerspace. Co-habitors on a microscale... or is that more bunkum?

The point is Brink once again defies our expectations to build into something even better than we expect. It just plan brilliant. I mean to be fair it would have been just plain brilliant if it had ended on the 'Showdown' but for this thrill that is now enough. It has to take us to the brink and then... push us over the edge.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 September, 2021, 10:27:45 PM
Brink really is brilliant - I was expecting the series after this to start with Kurtis as some kind of super-investigator, but it instead presents her as having being demoted. There's a sense that greater powers are always frustrating solutions - whether that be the cultists or the corporations that are running things.

We're all this way into the story and still don't know why Earth is uninhabitable. I realize it doesn't require explanation - because it's so obvious to the characters we're witnessing that they don't need to go over that with each other - but it's also part of a wise narrative that knows the monster you don't see creates the biggest fear.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 21 September, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Just a quicky to say I've just finished Prog 2122 which contained the conclusion to a great Jaegir story as Jaegir sacrifices herself to allow the troops freshly under her command to escape a Souther army. A great Grey Area as Grell's black ops team is  exposed and Bulliet goes for breakfast. Tooth and Nail which I still don't get. And the wonderous Dredd story Machine Law - absolute fast moving perfect (well except that one page I didn't like but I'll not drag up that discussion - go check the Prog review threas for Prog 2122). It really is a fantastic bit of craft by Wagner and MacNeil magnificently moving on the wider story, continuing the mechanismo uber-arc and having some tremendous small character moments.

The Skip Tracer finishes its third story .... and after over analysising the previous one I've forgotten this one already and can think of nothing constructive to say... fascinating in its blandness. 
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 22 September, 2021, 06:15:07 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 September, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
The Skip Tracer finishes its third story .... and after over analysising the previous one I've forgotten this one already and can think of nothing constructive to say... fascinating in its blandness.

The third one was the worse of them a real nothing story.


Jaegir is for me the best out of the Rogue-verse stories.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: norton canes on 22 September, 2021, 10:31:28 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 September, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Tooth and Nail which I still don't get

'Tooth and Nail', I was trying to think of that the other day when trying to remember the better recent 3rillers. Intriguing concept but a slightly confusing resolution IIRC? Didn't Andi Ewington come on the forums here to explain it? Great art by Staz Johnson too. Would still love to see another chapter of this, it was intriguing stuff.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 September, 2021, 12:04:26 PM
Quote from: norton canes on 22 September, 2021, 10:31:28 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 September, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Tooth and Nail which I still don't get

'Tooth and Nail', I was trying to think of that the other day when trying to remember the better recent 3rillers. Intriguing concept but a slightly confusing resolution IIRC? Didn't Andi Ewington come on the forums here to explain it? Great art by Staz Johnson too. Would still love to see another chapter of this, it was intriguing stuff.

Yeah the basic premise was clear. We're meant to think there's to folks in the story, a hard man and a younger 'accomplice' press ganged into taking out some gang members so the hard man can gain access to the mob boss type. Inh the end its revealed they are one and the same person. What's not clear is whether that due to them always being the same person and the young man being beaten after the mob hit is just the product of the story and deception. OR whether there's some sort of my mystic element with the hard man some how 'absorbing' the young apprentice so he can become him to fool the mob types. There's lots of reference to being hungry, and the hard man having 'eatten already' does that allude to him 'consumning' the innocent teen?

Oh and there's a yappy type dog... I'm not sure what they yappy type dog represents?

It was a fascinating story, just frustrating. As you say great art mind.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 September, 2021, 09:38:36 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2130 - Brave New Word

The Regened FCBD issue in 2018 was immense fun, so when Tharg, or is it Joko-Jargo announced we'd be getting another I was delighted. When it was announced that would be inserted into the regular run of Progs I was intrigued - due to the printers not being able to handle the number of special planned for 2019 I believe. When it landed in the middle of some lovely ongoing stories I was a bit bemused... but then I'm not at the coal face and don't understand the logistics of it all... still it seemed a fumble and opened the door to a grumble, as so many did.... little did they know at this stage!

What was interrupted - well a pretty fine line-up - Scarlet Traces, Max Normal and Kingmaker. I'll be back to talk about them when they're done. Two interesting Dredd stories straddle the all ages special. The Long Game by Mike Carroll and Mark Sexton has a fascinating first part. Introducing Sage in a fantastic opener our expectations are defied, as we learn he's not a good samaritan, rather a practical career criminal. After that we learn of the struggles in the the organised crime world. Deals between parties are being made, folks don't like it and betrayals and subsequent revenge are had. Its all heady stuff with Dredd on the edges... and then the end... well alas it all rather falls apart as we learn Sage's secret, which keeps him alive... cos he knows how far away Dredd is... just Dredd... no one else - and that's seen as an invaluable asset because... reasons... such a shame as up to the end this was a great strip.

The other side of the break... well we'll see next time but its chimpion stuff.

So yeah sorry for the interruption there, back to the main event. The Regened Prog. Its really pretty good. All the fuss, a lot of chest banging seems to mean some online commentators can't see the wood for the trees. A good thrill is a good thrill and Tharg ... Joko ... sorry... are doing the exactly right thing, trying new things and reaching out to new audiences. While we might not like the logistics and the way its done, even the most 'knowing' of our social media friends doesn't really have a clue as to factors that drive decisions, so we can just shrug and try not to pre-judge.

In this case that would be a very healthy thing to do. There are real highlights - Cadet Dredd by Chris Weston is fantastic crowd pleasing fun. Full Tilt Boogie sets up a world and feels very much the opening part of a series... which is luckily what we get, but in the context of this special is a little too teasing. Still a fantastic opening part with so much packed in. The rest of the strips by and large look great but don't quite live up to the standards of those two, but all have positives.

This issue felt like a very worthwhile experiment and ... well actually it doesn't matter what we think, it was clearly a success and has given rise to a legion of new stories and internet whines. We'll have a bumpy road to travel with these issues next year as they become regular features, but it will also provide some gold and some bold new horizons. This Prog is one of the most important of recent years and in moments was good enough to justify that billing.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 28 September, 2021, 10:32:43 PM
Y'see, there are only so many jump-ons you can reasonably fit into a year:

(https://i.imgur.com/SDoPTXw.png)


These days, that's usually an end of year prog, and then a round number prog - you're lucky if Tharg manages to wangle a third from his mighty organ.

And then, if you stick your special Regened issue as the issue before a jump-on, then you're putting all of your special thrill-eggs into one squishy fortnight basket instead of spreading the joy more evenly throughout the year.

As for poor 1998 - it may be time to bash the Bishop! That was the year we got all those twin-jumps because of one-story progs (like 1077's In The Year 2120), and a lot of double-episode progs (Sinister AND Dexter) to finagle the schedule.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 September, 2021, 11:04:31 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 September, 2021, 09:38:36 PM
due to the printers not being able to handle the number of special planned for 2019 I believe.

No... it was explicitly stated in a Thrill-Cast that the distributors nixed the idea of an additional special that year, so it was folded into the regular prog, I imagine because the content was easier to fit into the prog than the already-commissioned strips for the specials that were in the works.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2021, 06:15:48 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 28 September, 2021, 11:04:31 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 September, 2021, 09:38:36 PM
due to the printers not being able to handle the number of special planned for 2019 I believe.

No... it was explicitly stated in a Thrill-Cast that the distributors nixed the idea of an additional special that year, so it was folded into the regular prog, I imagine because the content was easier to fit into the prog than the already-commissioned strips for the specials that were in the works.

Arh thank you for the correction. I knew it was some external factor, but good to have that stated correctly.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2021, 06:24:34 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 28 September, 2021, 10:32:43 PM
These days, that's usually an end of year prog, and then a round number prog - you're lucky if Tharg manages to wangle a third from his mighty organ.

And to be fair heading into 2019 even the end of year/start of year Prog wasn't a complete jump on with Brink cutting across the years.

I'm guessing (???more corrections welcome???) Tharg / Joko may have just gone with the date (or as near as sensible) that they wanted it to come it as a Special originally? I'm speculating again they probably had done some research into when this sort of issue would have had most impact?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 September, 2021, 09:35:47 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Not your Normal apes

Spring of 2019 sees 2000ad roll out two superb apes. One is a co-star in someone elses story, another is starting out on a tale to his own series in Dredd.

The first is Vito, Max Normal's ape companion to whom the pin-striped freak relays his origin story in Max Normal - How the Max got his strips. An origin story we never knew we needed and the past comes back to haunt Max in the form of the next generation and their anger at the old folk taking all the money and good stuff away from them.

I mean we didn't need a Max Normal solo series did we, we certainly hadn't been hankering after an origin stiry. But with Vito at his side Max knows what we need, even when we don't. Guy Adams and Dan Cornwell (very ably coloured by Jim Boswell) absolutely nail this one. Its brilliant. In turns funny, thrilling and often poigniant or funny. Its alway engaging and just keeps going as the tale drives from one point in time to the next and Max and Vito just ooze charm as they bicker and bite the exposition as the perfect comedy odd couple. We even get action Shuggy at the end.

Its just a superb series, one of my favourites of recent years, and there's been some brilliant stuff. It holds up wonderfully on re-read and I suspect on may subsequent reads as well. We haven't had more from Max since and I'm not sure we need it, but I would welcome him and Vito back in a heart beat.

A character that first appeared in Prog 2131 we haven't had to wait long to raise in the ranks and while Max and Vito haven't returned Noam Chimpsky has come back several times already and recently got his own, richly deserved, series. Dredd has had lot of co-stars who've moved onto their own thing, but not for a long time and rarely with the impact of Chimpsky. In his first appearance in The World according to Chimpsky creators Kenneth Niemand and PJ Holden quickly imbue Noam with charm, just as Vito has. Noam's charm is so much more ... well cute... he's an innocent in a violent and overwhelming world, so wonderfully captured in this first opening page splash by Holden.

Noam in the foreground facing out into a looming and impossible world of neon and commerce, a Judge, all be it a holographic one, standing tall over him proclaiming 'No you can't'. Chimpsky wears his propeller beenie with a satchel slung over his shoulder. Its a wonderful scene setter on so many levels, but as an introduction to this great character its hard to imagine it being topped.

In the next page we see Naom's other side as he springs into life and swings through that city - which seemed so overpowering before and we meet the cities own Spider-man. He is then netted by Dredd, but we quickly learn he's more than a match for ol' Joe. By the time he swings off into the sunset (not literally) we know already a star is born and he'll be back.

What really works is of course the glorious script by Neimand (who he?) written from Noam's perspective its fizzes and bubbles with the charm of the great ape. With numerous hilarious knowing nods - the real genius in the way he translates Dredd's dialogue into it sterotypical meaning. Its so good as by the end we know we have two stars Noam Chimpsky himself and Kenneth Neimand - who impressed with his first Dredd, but raises things up a notch here.

So Tharg proves once again he's not monkeying* around resting on his laurels. He's constantly looking to the future and even when he draws on the past he brings some new to the table.

*Monkeys and apes are different - the tail of a monkey and self awareness of an ape being the key biological differences but allow me this one...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Sean SD on 30 September, 2021, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 September, 2021, 09:07:58 PM

Nobody top Kenneth

Prog 2113 marks one of the most significent addtions to Tharg's arsenal for sometime as Block Buds marks the enigma that is Kenneth Niemand's debut on Dredd. Its a superb, confident tale. Both classic and fresh as Niemand, with pitch perfect art from Jeff Anderson, introduces giant holographic AI friends to every Block in a test area, designed to help keep the mood of the citizens calmer and safer. It, of course all goes wrong but it such fun.

Its a great Dredd on anyones terms, but from a debut writer on the series... well we're coming back to that aren't we... Niemand had only done the Starlord strip in the 2017 bumper Prog ... unless you believe the conspiracy theroiests that is...

See much as its been a delight to see Niemand so quickly develop into one of the best Dredd writers for years it been as much fun trying to guess who Kenny Who really is. Some remain convinced it Grennie. Other refute the writing style make that a possiblity. If it is a known Droid an appearance on the Thrillcast by the erstwhile radio scripter under a nom-de-plume mean Tharg has gone to extreme lengths to dispell the guesses.

What fun.

Put what matters most is the Prog has gained a wonderful writer and for that Prog 2113 needs to be celebrated.

Hey Colin
Thanks for the reminder to check out the Niemand droids first thrill and first Dredd.
Great to have a quick look back, both strips well done esp for a freshly commissioned droid
I humbly request that you keep the Niemand droid well oiled please Tharg
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 06 October, 2021, 09:53:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Absalom

You know I thought I'd have more to say about this. Absalom is a tight, neat story. With a sharp focus and while it allows itself the time to explore it corners it never feels as if it drifts.

The final story, well the second half of Terminal Diagnosis in 2019 is an almost perfect distillation of that and the series as a whole. Its brutal, creepy and when it wants to be utterly heartbreaking. Man that ending is just nailed to the wall superb. The final moments even further distilling what's gone before and then... peace and harmony, so absent throughout the series to add the full stop.

And Tiernen Trevallion delivers it all with art that's ugly and brutal in a perfect reflection of the story. Its sublime, its that perfect fit.

The series and it end are very, very good and theres not much else to say to be honest.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 07 October, 2021, 09:15:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

The Galaxy's Grimmest Comic

So last time I talked about a tight, focused strip, with a perfect ending and art that was made to realise the story. I'm essentially going to do the same again with TC Eglington and Simon Davis' Thistlebone. I think so much has been said about this series, so brilliantly atypical of 2000ad, which again makes it so perfectly 2000ad, that there can't be much new to say. Its closest comparison is of course 'Cradlegrave' in terms of pacing, and tone. Both have a creeping, crawling horror, that slides between the panels and into your head. Neither makes it entirely clear what the horror is exactly, but makes us dwell on what we are allowed to see, and more importantly fear even more that which we are not.

Both had stunning art so perfect for them.

Thistlebone, as a folk horror seems different to Cradlegrave, however its what ages you get your folk tales from is the only real difference. The anicent country horror of old tales, or the urban modern horror of the right wing press. There is so much in common. Yet for all those comparisons, Thistlebone remains utter unique in the history of 2000ad in so many ways. We are left very clearly, with a lack of clarity - one that has been boldly continued in its sequel, not needed but welcome - is there any true horror, or is it all in the mind... or if it is all in the mind does that mean the horror is not there... errr.... no, no... make it your own and accept that the horror is there, magical or mental.

Its a genius strip, with glorious art. Simon Davis is just magnificent for this and while we all felt his (early) Slaine was the strip for him, this just proves what fools we were THIS is the perfect strip for him and he mades nature red in tooth and claw look so beautiful and... well yes I'm over using it but - horrific.

Oh and the end, christ that ending is chilling, absolutely chilling.

The great thing is though that Thistlebone isn't alone in its absolute brilliance as we charge into Prog 2150. We get the end to the Judge Pin storyline that is almost as harsh as Thistlebone. We get the tortured magic of the mind in Indigo Prime and Jaegir replacing Absalom reminds us that all that glitters is not gold and in the case of 2000ad is grim and cruel...

...actually is the period the most grindingly brutal and ... well yes... horrific in 2000ad's long and hard nosed history? I think it just might. And of course its all the more beautiful for that.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 08 October, 2021, 09:17:42 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Quick summary of some of the great thrills that run us into Prog 2150 (bloody hell I'm only about 100 Prog behind now! We're almost done.... which feels pretty.... weird... anyway...) and while both Absalom and Thistlebone were exceptional there are some pretty excellent thrills beside - its just like the New Comicbook Day Mega Thread... which I'll still have when all this is done.

Indigo Prime - I mean there are issues I seem to be avoiding / hiding trying not to think too hard about the creator / genius but there's no denying on its own terms this is a superb thrill. Somehow being utterly impenitrable while being curious straightforward. There are details you can delve into / explore but under all that - multilayers in reverse - its a cool action adventure and such fun. Oh and we could do the perfect art thing again!

Sinister Dexter - All the pieces in place, well at the end of the run coming into 2150 that is as the AI (well AGI) is introduce and ... well spoilers ... released and Sinister gets a tattoo. This run is brilliant in putting things in line for what should have been a brilliant story....

Dredd - The Fall of Barbarbara Grimm - one of the best Judges and Mega City One grinding a citizen down for many a year by Mike Carroll and Nick Dyer. Love the cruelty of this one.

Jaegir - Valkyrie - love the cruelty of this one too and the way again a different cruel world twist another great character.

3riller - Red Road - Andi Ewington and Ben Wilsher do a very good job 'Mad Max - Fury Road' storytelling through action and this one is an astonishing action adventure.

Future Shock - Congested Anima - One of the best Future Shocks in years, a car crash and terrifying insurance.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 15 October, 2021, 09:42:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

I always get distracted as I get towards the end of the year and thrills fly here and there as they rocket to their various conclusions. This is going to be particularly the case as the last line-up of 2019 is so bloody good. Brink - Hate Box - I will be talking more about that! Judge Dredd Guatemala I will be talking more about that. Defoe... hmmm... the second Hope series I almost certainly will be talking about that. Some of them I'll lose sight of if I'm not careful.

One I don't want to lose sight of Fall of Deadworld (you readin' this Phil? I got a thread to introduce you somewhere here abouts!). So I'll mention it early now.

There is much that could be said, but the one thing I love in this one is the way it appears as a sort of zombie apocolypse end of the world horror BUT actually slips greesily between genre within that. It has moments of Mad Max Dystopia, while toying with being an odd couple buddy road trip. Then becomes a Roman political thriller, as the powers that be twist and turn to be most betraying plotting snakey type... while bathed in the most body horror. Having ripped the eyeballs from that genre kek-W and Dave Kendall in Doomed finish with that and decide to throw the Apocolypse War into things and drag their blooded claws across a war comic.

This series isn't hard to follow, its just brilliantly restless and pulls out didn't tropes and ideas, slashes across genre and never lets itself settle. It twists and turns and always trys to become something new, while never losing its core story. Its that which makes the series fantastic and we should never lose sight of it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 16 October, 2021, 09:25:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

We can all get distracted by how great Wagner Dredd is and in Guatemala, where he teams up with Colin MacNeil we have a prime example of that. Its superb stuff, perfectly crafted. From the 'passing' of Hershey, which remains so powerful, regardless of the wonderful things we got after it with her. To the delving into her family history, to the cuelty of robots being confirmed, just as Dredd starts to trust them. Brilliant stuff. And here Wagner does one of those things he does of so well, he makes villains so monstrous that they make Dredd seem like the good guy. El Presidental and his robot cabal are so creepily awful, they get under your skin and they must Dredd, and he let's us now but of course remains in control.

Its just brilliant and the ending in Prog 2157 spot on.

Its not the best thing in the Prog though. That is Brink - Hate Box. There is no surprise that the series is just a dream. The episiode in Porg 2158 probably deserves a post for itself too but I'll focus on Bridget's visit to her mother in 2157. Brink as we know is a talking heads strip. Built of blocks of conversation, episode to episode to sculpt perfect intrigue on intrigue - until it explodes into rapid and horrific violence from time to time.

For a series so built on dialogue episode 8 of Hate Box plays with this quite, quite brilliantly. An episode almost striped of its primary tool shows that the dialogue isn't the trick. The trick is the character that is conveyed in those conversations and with the absolute supreme acting in INJ's art you don't always need words. Bridget's visit to her mother says so much, reveals so much and builts so much more character into our lead. Its also utterly heartbreaking. In an series built on words, an episode with next to no dialogue manages to say so much.

That is why this series is amongst the very best Tharg has ever given us. It defies our expectations of what a 2000ad story is and THEN it defies our expectations of what it is. Well except for the fact we know it the very, very best comics.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 17 October, 2021, 05:20:21 AM
Brink is more than just a modern-classic it brings so much to the party. What I like about the strip is that my interpretation of what is going on differs from yours and the next guys. Abnett script likes to play with our perceptions: what is real and what is not, is there supernatural elements at play or is it our imagination? The whole narrative is built upon a slow-burning, talkative characterizations with burst of ultra-violence. It is not your normal AD story since it reveals itself on its own pace and time. Cannot wait bring on book 5.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 October, 2021, 09:32:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

And so 2019 end and I've caught up with most the thrills that made this such a great end to the years. The one I've not mentioned in Hope - Under Fire, which is another frankly brilliant thrill. First let start with the art by Jimmy Broxton, its greytone perfectly capture the noir atmosphere that give the story its time, place and context. It looks and like the cinematic world its characters inhabit... well except that noir atmopshere has had it belly riped open and its inside splatter across the page. Its as brutal and horrifying as the Bacon picture that haunts this tale.

The story take the art and uses it to maximum effect. Its Dorian Gray, Hellbrazer and more. It plays with the cliche of the cost of magic. The oft used, well over used idea that the more you use it the more magic takes and cuts from you. It takes that and makes it fresh and strips away the fact it is cliche and makes it feel vital, and the cost terrible. Then it does the most bizarre thing it makes it into a sort of buddy story... well no but the tales tests the bond between Cade and Hope, literally. The villain Alberto Modi makes others pay the cost and uses that to try to rob Cade and then user her for his own nefarious end. Hope realises, whatever the cost he is a better host for the demon than Modi and he has to make the grand sacrifice to stop Modi's plans. Again so much cliche, but again it defines that with deft craft and superb storytelling it uses and its just a fantastic strip.

So there we have it 2019 ends on a real high, and a great line-up. All the thrills run to the end of the year and so there is no awkward filler and its a triumph march to the end of the year. A year that has once again... well that's for next post isn't it...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 October, 2021, 06:55:30 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2019

As ever a look back to my look forward to kick us off

QuoteSo will 2019 be a better place as well, will the positive trajectory continue to drive up as the change continues. Well I think the answer will be yes. It won't be massive, it will be continual, subtle development, but I can already think of the good things that are coming and its hard to draw out the bad, aside from what have already identified. So yeah 2019 is going to be just another great year!

And the answer is yes. 2019 is a fantastic year, up there with the best. As thrills end new things come in. Absalom concludes with heartbreaking power, but Thistlebone steps up. Kenneth Niemand joins a cast of regular Dredd scribes and will go on to become a firm favourite of many.

The big change however is of course the introduction of Regened into the regular run of Progs - as Jim pointed out as the distributes didn't want to add yet more specials to the line-up. And for all the nashing of teeth Regened will becomes new thrill generators of the highest order. And that's another thing that 2019 demonstrates Tharg needs to pump ouit new Thrills at a ... well chilling rate as the Prog is all about regeneration. Some of the absolute highlights of 2019 come from new and relatively new thrills, Kingmaker, Hope, Max Normal (welllll its new in the context of an ongoing series!).

Heck Absalom demonstrates this perfectly. Its a relatively new thrill and yet also reaches an end and Grennie and Trevallion clearly had a path worked out for this thrill. It landed in 2011, burnt with a dark brightness for 8 years and then ended its tale told. The strength of the Prog in these modern (at the time of writing) is it can sustain that rotation. Tharg, the Droids are all working at full capability, bringing in the new, arguably to the extent that there's too much and there's not enough capacity to keep everything in the pages.

In 2020 Regened will exemplify this growth and development. The restless experimentation. Things will again start, things will again end. Change is hard and we'll see that with the Regened. But for 2000ad change and growth is the very things thats need and we'll see that yet again. More of the same as things refuse to stay the same!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 October, 2021, 08:53:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Special and FCBD 2019

I guess 2019 isn't over until we've done the specials and FCBD issues and this year that is very true... even if I have already finished the year... anywayyyy. This year we get a, saddly very special special. As the Sci-Fi Special is a tribute to Carlos Ezquerra who past in the latter half of 2018.

And as might be expect Carlos inspires a fantastic special, a weak Dredd aside. There's an insanely horrible Fiends story, a strong Wulf Sternhammer one. The star of the show is however Spector John Wagner's and Carlos' last work together, unfinished but here we see the first 20 or so pages. Its solid stuff. With the distance of time I can move sentiment aside and say its neithers best work, but slightly sub-par work by these two is still some of the best stuff we've had in a Special. The story had potential and it would have be wonderful to see how it developed.

Alas not to be. Still it does make this special special.

The FCBD - Villains Takeover Special is almost as good, which give its a give away. The vast majority of the comics that sit beside it will rarely have ten pages of new material, let alone the 29 we get here. 29! And its not throw away stuff. The highlight is probably a wonderful Terror Tale by Matt Smith and Henry Flint but the rest of the content ranges from great to okay as a minimum. FOR FREE. When I read this I do wonder why the stuff that gets onto American shelves isn't flying off!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 25 October, 2021, 10:58:58 PM
I note that you have failed to mention the most significant occurrence in the prog's history, which occurred during the period you've covered in your last couple of posts.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 October, 2021, 06:15:09 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 25 October, 2021, 10:58:58 PM
I note that you have failed to mention the most significant occurrence in the prog's history, which occurred during the period you've covered in your last couple of posts.

I thought that you'd shun the publicity and attention Jim. What could I add to torrent of historical documents and reflections  on the moment you joined Tharg's army of Droids. I still remember the roar of the crowd at the ticker tape parade and how embarrasssed you looked!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 26 October, 2021, 06:29:38 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 October, 2021, 06:15:09 AM
I thought that you'd shun the publicity and attention Jim. What could I add to torrent of historical documents and reflections  on the moment you joined Tharg's army of Droids. I still remember the roar of the crowd at the ticker tape parade and how embarrasssed you looked!

YOU ARE FORGIVEN. [spoiler]:-)[/spoiler]
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 28 October, 2021, 04:36:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2162

Its a theme I've returned to time and time again but Prog 2162 does exemplify 2000ad ability to generate new and exciting stories, unlike me, who just churns out the same points again and again. See 10 self absorbed years ago I produced this list for Prog 2010ad:

Judge Dredd (1977) - 33 years
Future Shocks (1977) - 33 years (but each one new, so...)
Stickleback (2007) - 3 years
Nikolai Dante (1997) - 13 years
Zombo (2009) - <1 year
Ampney Crucis Investigates (2008) - just over 1 year
Low Life (2004) - 6 years

Interesting to note how many of those stories from 10 years ago have ended - or are on a looonnnnggggg hiatus - since then. Anyway this was to show how 2000ad then was refreshing and regenerating constantly. The year count is how old each of those thrill is by the time they appeared in Prog 2010.

So here we are ten self absorbed years later and with Prog 2162 its time to return to such a list:

Judge Dredd (1977) = 43 years
Graduation Day (a Absolam epilogue) = 9 years
Zaucer of Zilk = 8 years
Brink = 4 years
Proteus Vex = New
Fall of Deadworld = 4 years
Feral and Foe = New
Durham Red = 33 years (2 in this interation)

I mean that's pretty impressive. 10 years ago when I last did this all the of stories, but one - aside from the perennials - have ended and here we see an new set of 'new' thrills - or equal and arguably better quality still (there's a good debate!). When you think how good the two new stories in this Prog are, Feral and Foe and Proteus Vex we can safey say that while change is constant in 2000ad so is the quality that comes with that change.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 October, 2021, 08:50:46 PM
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Completely Self-Absorbed Regened Thread

Forgive me gentle reader, forgive me please. I have sinned, I have let you down. Please at least hear me out and let me explain.

For over 40 self-absorbed years and indeed over 5 NuYears I've kept it honest, I've kept it pure and stuck diligently to my task. These past few days however I've faltered, I've strayed off the path. Why do so when I'm so close to my goal, so very close. Well that my friend, if indeed you still call me friend, is simple. For what is the point of a re-read if not to give you the chance to re-examine what you have already read, to see it with fresh eyes. And that is quite hard when Self-Absorbed YNWA is so close to crashing into NuYNWA.

And so I have, for once, not been reading Prog by Prog, instead I have taken all the Regenes, throughout 2020 and read them out of sync - all the better to reappraise them AND to remove the bump in the flow of the regular stories as they come along. I think the latter will be of benefit, the former certainly is.

See for all the natching of teeth, of all the cries of SHAME and HOW dare you from 50 year old fans across the internet I've really enjoyed re-reading them. Even more than I had when reading them 'live' and I enjoyed them enough then. But read like this I've got a new appreciation for the strips - mostly - and hail this a success.

Not an unqualified one, but a triumph all the same. Let's break it down.

Cadet Dredd - by and large these have been magnificent in 2020. Typically the hardest strips in the Regened issues, pocking a finger in the eye of prime complaint "oh its too sanitised". The interplay between Dredd and Rico, when there works wonderfully. The new framing forcing new takes on an old idea and in the cases of 'Combat Ready' (in Prog 2183) which revisits the Route Combat Assessments and  'Tooth and Claw' (in Prog 2206) an immensely fun Cursed Earth dino romp absolutely crackin' Dredd tales. The other two are pretty good too.

Finder Keepers - the next most frequent thrill is alas a lot less successful and is open to the criticism of being a bit unengaging. It just never gelled as a strip, lacked any realy excitment and was generally a damp squib in the three issues it appeared in during 2020 (and before if I'm being brutally honest).

Judge Anderson - Appeared in two of the Prog 2183 and 2206 and I've gained a much finer appreciation of the interconnected story by Cavan Scott and I'm really looking forward to reaccessing the conclusion next year - though I still worry it will wrap things up WAY to quickly.

All the Regened issues had a Future Shock (or similar) and aside from a convulted one in 2170 they were all actually pretty damned good, I'd dare to say with a better hit rate than in the Prog regular at 3 for 4 and Karl Stocks stories in 2196 and 2206 were particularly tasty.

As for the rest, well The Gronk was very good in 2170, alas the Rogue Trooper in the same issue was and that marks the first 'regular' Regened as a bit of a miss overall, which is a shame as that meant the opening salvo wasn't too strong and might have set some folks minds for them.

Similarly Strontium Dog in 2183 was pretty muh, not really giving us anything of substance, but as mentioned above the other strips were stronger so that made this one a step in the right direction.

2196 was the first absolute hit for as well as a good Cadet Dredd and very good Future Shock we get both Pandora Perfect and Department K two absolute stonkers that get the tone and depth spot on and both asolutely deserve their runs in the Prog 'proper' so only Finder Keepers let this one down and overall this is a bloody good Prog regardless of it Re-ness.

2206 while not having standouts like those two in 2196 had a really good Abelard Snazz story to back up the stories mentioned above with only a muh Venus Bluegenes in the mix, so while not quite getting to the heights if 2196 is still a bloody good read.

So yeah the content is different in tone, but read like this not as different as some scream out, the balance is just shifting rather than them feeling wholesale different. Overall Prog for Prog with two stonkers, a good Prog and one muh issue the return is pretty much at the level you might expect from the Prog 'proper'...

and I put 'proper' in inverted commas advisedly. For this may well become what the Prog becomes, this maybe be were 2000ad needs to go. The balance might need to step down a gear to open up the throttle once more. If, however, the quality is there, a change of pace, all be it not much of one, won't slow down the thrills, it'll just help them up to getting up that big ol' hill of needing a long term future and finding the next generation of readers.

So dear reader I hope you can bring yourself to forgive me. I hope you understand my need to change things up and mess around with the format of my re-read. See as time has gone on I've identified a need to change and so rather than stubbonly sticking to my guns 'cos its what I've been doing for over 40 years I've been flexible. I've allowed myself to try something new in the new context I find myself in now. Yes I hope you can forgive me, but more importantly I hope you can forgive Tharg and Joko for doing the same.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 November, 2021, 09:19:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

So out there its in

Well before we start has there ever been a greater drop than Brink - Hate Box (with its gory and glorious endin) out and Skip Tracer in? Answers on a postcard.

Elsewhere though we have a wonderous slight of hand. Proteus Vex very clearly presents itself as other worldly, different and difficult. Its full of marvels and metaphysics. Henry Flint quite astonishingly weaves a world like on other, on the very edge of what we can imagine. Has a strip ever been so perfectly designed for him. Yet... yet ... when you get down to it its a remarkably simple story.

Cop on the hunt. Partnered with an 'odd couple' partner from the other side. Tracking a renegade prepared to do anything for the side of the lawman. Brutal violence and BANG traditional story over.

yet sometime the style can win over the substance... or at least paper over it. Its a quite magnificent slight of hand that utterly, utterly works.

What a wonderfully 2000ad thrill.


Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 10 November, 2021, 03:46:47 AM
I really like Proteus Vex and I see Mike Carroll as one of the most underappreciated writers in the prog/meg.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 November, 2021, 09:14:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Zaucer of Foe and Feral and Zilk

Or whatever - two more fine thrills from the first line-up of 2020 come to an end. Its been a fantastic run of stories. Brink, Proteus Vex, backing up some fine Dredd - Niemand continues his happy endings with 'The Relic' a real marker of his work on Dredd - and finally

Zaucer of Zilk - Zaucerful of Zecrets - the second story from the series continues the imagination, sweet word play and good times. The series is built around Brendan McCarthy's glorious art but we shouldn't ignore the fun Peter Hogan (taking over from Al Ewing) has with the world Brendan builds. The end is wanderful as Zaucer quits, handing over Zaucerdom to the fantastic new character Craggaknock (see what they did there) and rides off with this psycodelic family.

The final panel of the series really captures the fun a Romani Wagon drawn by a blue brick road by a giant pug, while Zaucer and this tu daughters, both the sam daughter, riding with him in this giant multicolour fancy pants. What more do you need to know?

The another fantasy Feral and Foe ends its first series. Like Zaucer its a fantasy that relishes and has fun with the story its telling. Such fun. Were as Zaucer seems to draw its trotes from a fever dream Wizard of Oz, Feral and Foes goes to gaming and a darker take. Both though are built on throwing all those ideas into the pot, stirring with some glorious led characters and topping it off with simply devine art.

Both have so much in common and yet remain so different. What they both hold onto most is being excellent thrills.

So the A rate opening line-up wraps up and the follow up will be lucky to hold that standard - we have Skip Tracer at its most generic, Sinister Dexter ending one of its rare lulls, Aquilla pops up and we'll see what else we get shortly. It is going to be a massive challenge as said, one I can't see it meeting but such is the joy of the anthology!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 November, 2021, 09:41:15 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Survival Geekish / unwanted

Well having spent 15 years giving folks the conclusion they wanted for Caballistics Inc Grennie has been closing things off with more efficency of late. As we head to the middle of last year and with Absolam already finished, Aquila heads towards it final act and Survival Geeks ends its all to short run... or maybe it was perfectly timed?

When I first read this series it didn't gell with me at all. Fun, snarky whimsy was all it offered, but on re-read I see that it offers fun, snarky whimsy I really enjoy. Its 5 year run only covers some 200 (plus) pages and 8 stories and on this read that's just not enough. I'd have enjoyed more... or would I? I think its thin premise has potential for so much fun BUT once you've attacked the nerd culture you want to attack it has nowhere else to go... and even within that it would start to stretch its premise. So it a deft touch that draws it to conclusion so quickly. This time leaving me wanting more and mean there no over staying its welcome.

Now another thrill in this peroid - a line-up that does a very good job of living up to the previous line-up (see last post) even if its not quite as good - that many would say overstayed its welcome the moment it landed. Hershey was felt to have robbed folks of the glorious final scene that 'ended' Hershey's life... even if John Wagner knew this was happening... and the scene still exists... still some folks minds were set against from the start. Which is a shame as in a lean, efficent and visually stunning 8 parts Hershey really is something new, from the old. Its design, break neck speed holds some fantastic storytelling but doesn't skimp on ideas and themes. Its breathless and satisfying.

All this and Chimpsky gets a wonderfully playful extended Dredd story in the fantastic Chimpsky's Law which really marks out the potential for the character, the new things he adds to Dredd's world and a knowing sense of story. These are good times.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 November, 2021, 09:02:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Ten pages to wonderland

So early summer 2020 and we have yet more proof that 2000ad turns around new thrills and keeps up astonishing quality. Full Tilt Boogie, sharp, fresh and with beautiful art, The Diaboliks dark, gleefully grim and with cutting structure and then we get

The Out

Those two new strips are fantastic, they hit the group running and make quite the early impression. They grab and entertain you immediately. However good those opening are however they aren't The Out. What's astonishing about Dan Abnett and Mark Harrison' thrill is that it not only grabs you straight out the blocks, but how it simply screams in you face CLASSIC after just two episodes. 10 pages of its debut in Prog 2187.

How does it do that... well I don't know... it does that most 2000ad of things and manages to feel entirely at home, while being entirely atypical of the comic. Its funny, funny as hell but, again so 2000ad, has a dark cloud lurking on its horizon. You are washed away by the wit, sweep up with the art and its unearthly vista and population but you... somehow... glimpse all is not well. Cyd is hilarious, funny and bright, an absolute breathe of fresh air in the comic, but you also know, almost instintively in these early pages, that she has a deep sadness and desperation. We didn't know what that was, reading now we see the trail that Dabnett is leaving us to what we now know is coming.

The Out is a work of wonder, a truth, absolute delight.

It stands out against absolutely blinding new thrills like The Diaboliks and Full Tilt Boogie. It standouts out against Dabnetts other new thrills Lawless and Brink*. Its quite simply astonishing.

After only 10 pages!

Not to say its better than Lawless or Brink, just to say it stands in glorious contrast to them.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 23 November, 2021, 08:56:05 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Cut it Out

God my titles are getting so weak. Weak, weak sauce.

Anyway while The Out remains quite brilliant. The Diaboliks grimmy entertaining and Full Tilt Boogie as good as it title supposes (and that's very good in case you aren't sure0. We have two more established stories at opposite ends. The Order remains brilliant. I'm surprised that folks don't like it (when they don't) I kinda get its hard to follow - though this re-read is really helping - but even when I get a bit lost its so energetic, refreshing and different to be bogglingly entertaining.

Unlike Dredd - End of Days . I really, really don't like it. I've enjoyed much of Rob Williams Dredd work and in some cases loved it. The art by Colin MacNeill and then Henry Flint is just astonishingly good... its just... well to be brutal... rubbish, tired and old and just the opposite of The Order, or indeed the new strips. On re-read its such a disappointment. I hoped to find more, in fact, I found less as its paper thin nonsense is exposed.

Rob Williams does like to put Dredd through the ringer. To show how unmoving, how Titanic he is. Its was getting pretty tried before End of Days, but other, more interesting story elements made up for that. With End of Days, I think by design, he's striped that away and just thrown as much as he can in  sharp, 'epic' action movie Dredd... and its just so hollow.

Its like Millar and Ennis car crashed together. As if Rob Williams is bellowing at the reader LOOK AT THIS, LOOK its ICHABOD AZRAEL HOW COOL..
. and now LOOK HOW IN DANGER THE CITY IS (though this is utterly strip of impact by just being throw at us, with paper thin sense of consequence beyond empty words)
LOOK HOW HARD DREDD IS
LOOK ITS SHAKO (whhaatttt why.... its not even Shako is it...)
LOOK DREDD IS TAKING EVEN MORE
LOOK ANDERSON IS JUST AS TOUGH WHEN SHE NEEDS
LOOK EAST MEG NOW
MORE
MORE
MORE

... and each time the story as a whole feels, less, less, less. Just so empty and its only gets style over substance marks for the wonderful art.

Man I did not expect to react to this quite the way I am. I really dislike it on re-read, when I was hoping for it to find redemption, its just exposed.

As I say I like much of what Rob Williams has done but End of Days is a terrible mistep by my reading and exposed as such against such wonderful strips next to it.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 24 November, 2021, 08:15:01 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 November, 2021, 08:56:05 PM
As I say I like much of what Rob Williams has done but End of Days is a terrible mistep by my reading and exposed as such against such wonderful strips next to it.

I even felt at the time that the whole saga was a at least 3 episodes short and this might have given it a little more breathing space to grow. It always felt like a mad rush to get to the end. Art was fantastic
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 24 November, 2021, 07:52:18 PM
I enjoyed End of Days but I did have to treat it as something else dressed up as Dredd.

Remember that Alternity Winter Special from 1995? Imagine it as part of that concept and I think it's pretty cool - like Judge Dredd as Shakespearean drama, as opposed to Judge Dredd as police procedural. I watched a Macbeth once, and they had the protagonists dressed up as arctic explorers, with ice picks instead of swords. It was inventive, and it was still Macbeth.

In a setting where the canon has become somewhat meaningless you either have to carefully toe the line of easy resets after each episode (unless you're Wagner), avoid Dredd as much as possible (see Niemand) or just go balls out crazy and do your own thing. I liked that Williams went for the latter. Look at what Rennie's doing with the Blackhawk premise (or Jaegir), for an example of new avenues for old ideas.

On the same note I've also been enjoying The New Adventures of Cyber-Hershey - and I get why people are feeling miffed that she was dead, but not really - and now she's superhuman, kinda and blah. But, it's given her character more character than a sort of stern cardboard cutout that was always just a reflection in Dredd's pool.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 November, 2021, 09:18:59 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Not Out classed

So we're rolling to the end of this run and heading into 2200 and another jump on. Its been another stella line-up. So much so I'm beginning to wonder if 2020 will be amongst the best years in thrillpower. Its got to take it over the line, but so far, even though I've given up trying to do this 2020 is blinding... I'm getting ahead of myself. I should focus on what's so good about this line-up, especially since Dredd is annoying me so much.

Well its the freshness of it all. I've already waxed lyrical about The Out and it continues to be magnificent - especially when it flips and decides to be gut wrenchingly powerful. All the power and delightful hijinks serving to not only be wonderful and fresh in and of itself, but also to simply serve the moment when the story suddenly reveals its darkside, the one I mentioned lingering and the story plays in beautiful hand filled with death and loose. Just genius.

The Order has been its own crazy brand of freshness and by George what an ending as it plunges into a magnficent and tragic end and cliffhanger.

The Diaboliks keeps its short sharp story structure to keep its gloriously dark exterior all the more interesting.

All so good, but I'm here to talk about Full Tilt Boogie the freshest of them all. While it lacks the utter genius of The Out, this first strip blossoming from the Regened fulfills the remit of those issues. Its sends a shot through the Prog. I means its very 2000ad, glorious characters some all over out there. Wit and adventure. High drama tension. But it does it with a zest and energy that feels new, even while it trips across solid, well worked ground. Its a delight.

The art from Eduardo Ocana utter captures that fresh energy. Its entirely 2000ad with bright echos of the maestro Henry Flint, yet feeling more like an Image Comic filtered through The Phoenix. It calls out to those new reader who Regened is screaming to, it give that scream an glorious bit of 2000ad reverb, but its so there.

Even the title Full Tilt Boogie just works on the strips remit and if we want the Prog to thrive into the future we should salute the fact that FTB sits so perfectly alongside the other strips here. Allowing 2000ad to grow at the same time it remains utterly rooted in its magnificent past.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: broodblik on 25 November, 2021, 06:09:56 AM
My understanding is that the script is done for the sequel just waiting for the artists. So yes FTB was a great new edition to the prog
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 November, 2021, 06:16:34 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 25 November, 2021, 06:09:56 AM
My understanding is that the script is done for the sequel just waiting for the artists. So yes FTB was a great new edition to the prog

Oh that's great news - I'd not heard anything so I'm chuffed to hear that. Thanks Broodblik.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 November, 2021, 09:29:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

On the Outs

This is a very hard post for me to type.

Very hard.

Long term readers of my nonsense will be well aware of my love of Sinister Dexter. As many have drifted from their warm and charming murdeous embrace, I've seen the golden, bullet riddled glow is still there. The recent run with Steve Yeowell has seen the strip storm back to its very finest form, and its not as if it was bowed low before that raise. Its just got better.

Then Bulletopia hit and all the issues of timing killing momentum, that others, not me, OTHERS have rolled out struck me. In this instance it was right. Why now.

Well The Moses War (just to sight an example) was perfectly structured to support the story in short stories that built to the greater whole. Dabnett and Williams (and others as they came) handled it brilliantly. Giving you what you needed to read each tale in isolation, reward the long term reader with a steadily building epic. So it did kinda fumble the ending, rush to the line as if Dabnett got word of the disatisfaction and decided he needed to move on.

So move on he did. And well. Starting to skillfully craft a new reality for them, while respecting, playfully the old.

The Bulletopia.

Bulletopia is structured differently. Bulletopia is a story designed to be presented as a single epic (well I say that I of course mean from my reading, I have no idea of Dabnett's intent). Its about desperation, fleeing and horrible last stand. The ultimate example of our deadly duo having their worst moments when seperated. Its needs drive and focus and attention to build the sense of danger and awful flight... instead we get

a

drip

feed

of

stuff

which

just

makes

for

a

clumsy

read.

And that sinks it. SUCH a shame. This time. I have no doubt that the series will continue, will re-find its feet. I just hope whatever factors are needed are allowed to happen to give it what it needs. That's not happened with this story. We must move on...

... except this exposes another issue we will have to face together. As Self Absorb melds into NuYNWA its becoming harder and harder for the YNWAs to seperate themselves, for Self Absorbed to not be Nu and bound by Nu's thoughts. Here this problem is exposed.

In Prog 2185 Carrie said

Quote'We think the rogue A.I. is about twenty two years old.'

Now that's a very specific reference. 22 years, not 20, not about 20, 22. Now while S&D doesn't move in a Dredd style year for year basis, this story is meta enough (I think) to have normally sent me flying back to the S&D stories of 1998 to see what hints this was leading to... or whether I was over reading... either way I should have been flying back.

I didn't. I acknowledged that I should... but I didn't and that's a sure sign that NuYNWA's disenfranchised feelings for this story are crushing Self-Absorbs YNWA's ability to view afresh.

The end is near...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 09 December, 2021, 09:46:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Its the end of the year as we know it and even Skip Tracer is fine

Well fine might be over stating it. Skip Tracer - Hyperballard is pretty good, I mean its fun, it not exactly earth shattering but its a decent read and the foil of India Sumner works to soften the strip's needlessly 90s hardman lead.

All around it though the Prog is in fine form. There's been some fantastic Dredds from 'Carry the Nine' to 'They shoot talking horses don't they?' the epilogues to End of Days far surpassing the story itself, far surpassing them. That then leads into the brilliant 'Simply Normal' the latest (in self absorbed land) Ken Niemand story, quite superb.

The return of Stickleback after, what 6 years is pretty scaled up as the tale explodes into giant monsters battling over the soul of London. The very fabric of the world's softening and so many illusions to the Edgverse... oh and the Sherlock think forms a little backbone, but doesn't yet define the strip. Still its a pretty blistering return.

Speaking of returns Hookjaw's is quite the thing. Its a fantastic modern folk horror. Examining legend in the modern age and feature a giant morphing man shark tearing as many folks as possible apart in a way as brutal the original series. Its really is quite the thing and its brilliant fun and does a wonderful job of being its own thing, but holding hands tightly with the original.

This is all wrapped up with Fiends of the Eastern Front - Constanta a fantastic origin wrapped in layer of legend and myth. Its interesting as like Hyperballard it runs one familar ground when you look under the bonnett its not especially original. Its just told so well, so beautifully horribly rendered by Tiernen Trevallion it works on a whole different level to the strip I mentioned earlier. Just goes to show there are many things that go into making a thrill work.

And one of those is timing and Sinister Dexter - Bulletopia shows that. Its meant to be a nonstop desperate flight and when I read 'The Funt Outta Town' is fun and energetic, but is robbed of meaning given its seperation from the death of Finnegan and thus the impact on Ramone is lost and this problem will continue. Its interesting to revisit them and try to see them for themselves... it just tricky to do.

This is just a side show however as Sinister Dexter is back to be filler at the end of a run of stories and the end of 2020 has a bloody fine run of thrills and a fantastic year ends really well.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Barrington Boots on 10 December, 2021, 11:26:08 AM
Was a strong year end that was. I vividly remember last year one of my Progs around this time going missing in the post and being mildy distraught as I was enjoying Hookjaw and Constanta so much. Even SinDex was interesting again for a bit.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 11 December, 2021, 03:36:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

2020 and the 2020 Specials

So let's try something a little different in the end of year write up, christ I've done 43 of these, there can't be much left to say can there... and yet as we mark Rebellion's 20th anniverary it seems that 2000ad does still have so much to say, while still reflecting back. And the year is neatly summariesd by the specials and so I'll review the year via those.

Firstly (well not actually cronologically, but for the purposes of this review) we get the '20 Years of Rebellion Sci-fi Special' and this does what Rebellion have done so well and the thrills of 2020 so demonstrate. First and foremost its brilliant. Its simply a brilliant, fun comic, possibly best demonstrated by Dredd - The Immigrant, in which Dredd meets Zombo (and narrowly misses meeting Tharg, now there would be a great read) and rather than being indulgent, its hilarious. Its a brilliant read and with Jake Lynch, now in full Jack Lynch mode it has fantastic art replacing Henry Flint who you might expect here. Yes its fun, yes it runs the risk of being cute and throw away BUT it avoids that and its just great comics.

The rest of the special does similar things, reprinting prime material from the past, but more importantly having great stories that mix the old with the new. Much like The Immigrant they always find a way to serve a new purpose. To not be there for just the fun of it, while being there for the fun of it. And that's what 2020 in the regular Prog so perfectly encapsulates.

We get a set of frankly superb stories, not everything is perfect, but to be honest not much misses the mark. We get tales that directly call back like Fiends and Durham Red. All there doing something fresh. We get thrills that less directly hark back buut utlimately do celebrate the past in there tone and innovation. So Feral and Foe, Proteus Vex, heck even the utterly different Brink all have the tone and feel of being 2000ad, in part because they do innovate and do stretch things.

We get the variety in 2020 as well, probably no more so than in Dredd. There are some storming stories and Kenneth Niemand really comes into his own here, but others do fantastically also. There are some clunking great misses too though. End of Day is bloody rubbish, while looking astonishing, ever it is with the anthology. Overall though even with its major story missing so many notes there's much more good than bad.

So yeah 2020, Rebellion's 20th year shows they understand the age old formula of the familar and the innovative, often in place at exactly the same time. It didn't take them 20 years to get to that perfect mix, but that 20th year does really highlight how well they do it and have been doing it for so long.

Then we get the FCDB issue. And wow do we get a deal here. 2000ad offers astonishing value and the all new villains material shows that perfectly. What it also demonstrate is the Prog moving in different directions to entertain new folks. The Regened might not alway hit the mark quality wise in 2020 and that's certainly true of the Villains Special (that I will note isn't officially a FCBD issue) there's a lot of misses. We should however applaud the drive to do new things to find new fans. We should celebrate and embrace that as if we don't we might lose the very thing we want and given the rest of the prog was so strong in 2020 I don't want that to happen and will support any experiments to stretch its audience.

All this and I've not yet even mentioned The Out. The Out alone typifies why 2000ad is so fantastic and deserves specific, seperate praise for doing what Brink does, being so wonderfully 2000ad while being so atypical. Its bloody brilliant.

So yeah I normally start these end of year recaps quoting what I said in prediction in the previous recap, so while I've not done that I don't want to lose sight of it entirely so...

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 18 October, 2021, 06:55:30 AM
In 2020 Regened will exemplify this growth and development. The restless experimentation. Things will again start, things will again end. Change is hard and we'll see that with the Regened. But for 2000ad change and growth is the very things thats need and we'll see that yet again. More of the same as things refuse to stay the same!

Yep

and going on to 2021, well it'll be so good it will feel like only yesteday! See you for yesterday and the end of this nonsense soon...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 December, 2021, 09:19:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Prog 2246 Regened - rejoice

So we're into 2021... this year... weird. Reckon by the time I finish we will be into 2022 at least! and the final sprint finish of this re-read. Its gonna get emotional. Its also starting with a cheat, as like last year I've taken the opportunity to re-read the Regened  in one go, so that's Prog 2220, 2233, 2246 and 2256. Its hit and miss again, but I'd say largely hit. Prog 2220 is the weakest, with only a decent Cadet Dredd and the introduction of Mayflies really worth mentioning. Both 2233 - with a very strong Cadet Dredd, which leans in hard on the Joe Rico relationship and the return of both Department K and Pandora Perfect, both of which we will return to making this a bit of a standout. 2256 wasn't bad either, with 3 decent to very good thrills.

Its Prog 2246 that hits the formula perfecrtly though in my book. In a year of strong Cadet Dredd that strip is the one misstep interestingly. Its followed by a powerful Mayflies tale as with a dark and hopeful premise for this series to use when I hope it returns. The idea of a strip about a team of young 'superheroes' fighting to save refugees has a great tone and place in a comic like 2000ad. Its got a place for young readers and is vital enough to entertain anyone. I really hope this series returns for a full multiple part run.

This is then perfectly contrasted in true 2000ad with the gloriously sweet 'Splorers, funny, charming and somehow manages to avoid falling into sickly with enough sticky, slapstick humour to give it a cheeky edge. Followed by a nice Future Shock keeping the tone brisk and fun.

The Prog is topped by Chopper a wonderfully fresh take on how Chopper became a surfer. It knowing narrative style feels to this aged fan modern and new. Its funny, exciting and expertly told - the final page is just a delight.

Its the mix in darkness and light, all though with a fresh entertaining edge that makes this the all ages masterpiece it is. It has something for everyone (well the diehard haters aside) and everything has something for everyone if they are open to looking. This Prog for me is the perfect example of what a Regened should and can be and as Tharg ... I mean Joko is getting more and more experience with these issues I hope to see more and more like this.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 22 December, 2021, 09:20:00 PM
img]https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png[/img]

This year... well after almost 6 years its weird to type that - started well, in the main. The final Slaine I'll skip over, the art is technically astonishing but, subjective as art is I don't adore it, rather respect it. The story itself leaves me cold. Proteus Vex and Durham Red I'm sure I'll reflect on when the time comes and there's a mixed bag with Dredd. I loved Will Simpson's art but it really kills Mike Carroll's story 'Desperadlands' - man that title is a stretch too! After that though there have been some simple fantastic one offs. Rob Williams doing a superb Mega Ciyy One beating you down tale in 'Health and Happiness'. Ken Niemand does a double bill of citzens with happy ending to chnage the typical tone of Dredd... well happy by Mega City standards which means not being arrested, or brutalised. 'Against the Clock' shows the pressure of a working mother with her bady strapped to her as she sky surfs against a deadline. And prior to that quite superly and hilarious we learn the risks of seeing folks in the buff in 'Naked City', which reveals a previously hidden shortcoming of the Justice Department. Fantastic.

The first the finish and the focus of this post is Hershey Book 2... and look I totally get that folks don't like the fact the story even exist. I understand there's a sense that the story strips the previous death scene of the power it has (it still does its still there, it now just has a cuning undertone). Fine if you can't get past that I can't chnage your mind... which is a shame its frankly superb.

Simon Fraser simply knocks it out the park. His page designs so dynamic, his colours so downplayed yet powerful, and the final execution fires the story onto a different level. Its simply amazing work.

The story is also superb. As I said above some folks can't seem to acknowledge it. Some who do claim it changes the characters of both Hersehy and Frank AND THAT'S THE CHUFFIN' POINT. The talk deals with two individuals driven to extremes by the roles they have taken that have defined them and shaped them to such an extent - when they are pulled from those roles they don't know what they have left and who they are any more. They need to find new meaning, purpose and most significently find their identities.

It does this wonderfully and with a brutal eye for detail and the characters histories. Its a fantastic strip if it can be viewed with an open mind.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 December, 2021, 09:03:22 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Endings that beg for more

Proteus Vex - The Shadow Chancellor ends with Vex an outcast and Midnight Indicating Shames (a name right out of the Dan Abnett Grey Area play book) due to be executed for being a threat to the citheronian's hive queens position. It ends with the line

QuoteThis was of course a fate that she avoided in a most spectacular fashion...

Now don't we want to see that and learn what happens next.

Durham Red - Served Cold ends the busted old time cop, recapping the fate of Durham Red as she refuses his 'offer' of escape and allows herself to be arrested, guilt ridden by death her hunger cause. Tghe line that ends that one

QuoteSentence yet to be determined

Now we need to know what happens next here too.

The reason however we need to know is not simply these tantalising endings, rather the engaging, wonderful action movies that get us there and make us demand to know.

Durham Red is such an unapologetic 80s action movie. Its Assault on Precinct 13 (that 70s actually isn't it) meets ... well meets just about any great movie you love. It starts with Durham arrested and handed over to the coolest old time cop you've seen since... well forever ... but able to escspe as a father seeking revenge against her sends a virtual army of cool mercanaries to bust her out so he can have his revenge.

What follows is high octane action, twists and turns, thrills and spins. Its none stop, relentless action movie fun... and end as we began with Durham Red in chains, but so much has happened in between I'm gagging to know what happens next. For folks that say 2000ad doesn't have the edge it used to this one pocks that idea firmly in the eye. Its fantastic.

Proteus Vex is dressed as a David Lynch movie. Its finely woven in a world that is magically atypical, that makes you think and stretch. Ultimately though there a solid thrilling action movie sown into its beautifully intricate fabric. The fine balance between world building and none stop James Bond action is perfectly taken. The otherworldly wonders are drawn with wonderfully human tricks and malignance. Corruption at the heighest level that is all too grounded alas. Its giant and other, while still being human and earthed.

It to ends with a situation that begs for more, but we are only begging because its been such a blast getting there.

Oh and while these two are running and Slaine takes a small break Dredd has fired back on all cylinders and this year is reminding us that 2000ad has lost none of its magic. Its still playing a tune that will keep us coming back begging for more.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 December, 2021, 08:55:07 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

Thrills of the future - Shocks!

The shock is they've still not arrived yet. I mean sure we're not talking Helium or even Brass Sun level impatient tapping of toes but I do wish to know where:

Fiends of the Eastern Front: 1963 - promised in Prog 2213
Hope...in the shadows - promised in Prog 2226

I WANT THESE THRILLS THARG - stop chuffing teasing me... oh and Brass Sun...

... I would write to him and ask when they are coming but last time I did that - and got printed - I asked when Robo-hunter was coming back and ... well that was around 700ish.... and I got what I asked for... and we all know what that meant so.... I'll just whine impatiently here...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 December, 2021, 09:20:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

I should spend more time talking about the Dredd in the spring of 2021... I mean this year ... still... just... but I happen to kno w there's a fav JD of the year story and there's a strong chance two of these will appear in my picks there so I'll save that. Though I guess that tells us quite clearly that we're in pretty bloody fine Dredd territory here - just superb Dredd. I mean I'm actually considering having no Wagner in my top 3 Dredds of the year... which can't be right... but I'm close...

All I've really got to usefully say about Slaine, which finishes in Prog 2228 is... well it over.

There's a mixed bag of shorts with some absolute highlights in Visions of Deadworld and the second Intestinauts story which has marvelous fun taking on Venom.

The real highlight of this time though is... well actually much like the Dredd stuff I suspect I'll be talking about this more in the end of year votes. Suffice to say Thistlebone - Poisoned Roots is pretty damned excellent. It entirely soaks in the mystery. Its twists you, turns your eye and stomach ... all while quite probably being centred on madness rather than spirits... or natural drug induced shared hallucinations... or maybe its the dark spirits after all. ... as its so often said about horror, its what you don't see that really crawls into your head and lays creeping terror.

Thistlebone will be in my top three when I feel brave enough to decide my vote on what is already a year filled with fantastic tales.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 10 January, 2022, 09:11:49 PM
img]https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png[/img]

Plummet of the Progs

The run into Prog 2250 is a curious beast. It starts so very well, but then much like the cover of Prog 2234 it plunges by the end of Prog 2249. Something Tharg seems to have learnt to navigate is the 'end of run malaise as we get to a relaunch Prog. Here alas not so well.

It all starts so brightly... hey I've not done one of these for quite a while and so should squeeze one in before I finish this. There's a lot to say so let's hit summary time.

1. Prog 2234 springs into bright fun gear as Dredd leaves Rowdy Yates.

2. Grennie starts as he means to end with a shorts run of an ongoing series with Mechastopheles just getting going before it goes to soon.

3. Department K jumps from the Regened and with Dan Cornwell drafted on art is a real treat as it rifts off Kirby and does its own thing. Its interdimensional hijinks are such fun.

4. Chimpsky leaps into space in a story this character needed. Freeing him from Dredd he really grows as a character. We delve into him, his past while keeping the same narrative tricks in place. Brilliant.

5. In Prog 2235 Neimand shows what a master of Dredd he is as in one of his 'gentler' citizen focused stories he breaks heart rather than heads.

6. Though of course Wagner is still the absolute master as he shows with Removal Man. A story of a nice man, with the typical pressures of Mega City One who offers an alternative to PJ Maybe, but is just as driven a killer. All be it what drives him is very different.

7. Prog 2236 see a glorious end to Feral and Foe. A perfect example of how Dabnett blends comedy and action. Adventure and character. Nails a high concept setting and breathes into old ideas.

8. Skip Tracer 'Eden' shows that this series had potential to climb out of its 90 movie cliche... if it wanted ... it just doesn't seem to want to!

9. Aquila - Rivers of Hades Book One shows that it doesn't need to break out of its 90s movie cliche as it does it so well and add sword and sandel and sorcery to the muscle bound action. Its simply fantastic.

10. Prog 2240 hits this runs zenith as Wagner shows that while Removal Man was good he was just warming up and 'Now that's what I call Justice' starts, a truly sublime Dredd thriller, preocedural, calling on the past, playing with Dredd as mentor and tieing all that together in a wonderful Dredd. In the same Dredd sure we have Skip Tracer - though in one of his better tales - all be it cliche bound. Chimpsky's Law ends wonderful - the final page by PJ sees Noam looking out of the potential of his city and the scale of the work he has to do. As Kenny Who shows the potential of the story he can craft and shows he has the scale of talent to do it. All this and Aquila and Dept. K on wonderful form. This is a blistering Prog that sets a high... from which it can start to fall.

11. Sinister is the start of that... though interestingly as the quality of the Prog drops, all be it very slowly, my interest in Bulletopia starts to revive, all be it slowly.

12. Dexter continues the slow build back... though it provides no replacement for the exiting Dept. K which also ends by opening scope like Chimpsky.

13. The Terror Tale in Prog 2244 starts to evidence that the short filler used at this point isn't really thriller alas.

14. Prog 2247 shows that Ken Niemand is human as House of Bleaker Street is probably his weakest Dredd to date. I mean its far from bad but it not quite up to his standard.  There's a Tharg 3riller that does nothing for me. Skipperty and Dexter, which will improving still has work to do. A short Jaegir is left to do much of the lifting.

15. We limp to the line and Prog 2249 is one of the weakest for a long time... but we're talking 3 weak Prog in a run. The problem is the standard is so high this low really stands out.

16. Just wait a week though...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 24 January, 2022, 08:19:53 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

The End

The final run of this reread, from Prog 2250 - 2263 is a pretty mixed bad, a suitably mixed bag, but overall its bloody good.

Seems pretty fitting huh.

Dredd in this run is a pretty decent summary as well. Rob William, Arthur Wyatt and Jake Lynch's 'Hard Way' is kinda annoying, a bit like 'End of Days'. There's a million hard man Dredd stories against a gang of tough killers, proving he's the toughest killer of all. We've been there, done that and on re-read this doesn't really offer anything else. But if that one's disappointing after a nice shorter tale we get the opposite end of the Dredd world by Rob Williams and Chris Weston in 'Dredd  the musical'. Funny, surprising and entirely entertaining. Dredd here is a series of extreme's and surely that is a great sumnation of 45 years of thrill power.

Nah surely its The Diaboliks dark as pitch but with lashings of humour to highlight the brutal violence. I mean that is 2000ad right.

or is it Scarlet Traces with art just eye poppingly good, as the series takes a typical tale of war and desperate struggle, but finds a way to subvert our expectations. Now that's 2000ad right...

nah its curiously all the small thrills tucked in between the gaps, filling the spaces that surprise, entertain and infuriate. Particularly Sinister Dexter in this run a thrill that has even worn my patience with the series of late, to only return to form by realising that 2000ad truism 'Everything is better with dinosaurs in it.'. That variety, that return to form after a dip now THAT'S 2000ad isn't it.

Of course not its Pandora Perfect, perfectly making clear why the Regene is here. 2000ad should never pander to us. 2000ad should flick its nose at us the long term reader. It should annoy 50 year olds reading after 45 years. Of course it bloody should. We the very established thing we claim to what 2000ad to be pushing back at. And it is. And its succeeding in doing that as its annoying folks who expect it to stay the same. To do what we expected it to do 45 years ago, unchanged and unchallenged. Regened, exemplified by the brilliant Pandora Perfect, bursting into the Prog proper, achieves that perfectly using the power of wonderful comics.

So there we have it after 45 years the perfect summary of what we've learnt in that thrill...

... except of course it can't be, surely. Each of those provides a perfect example of what 2000ad does so well. I'm so pleased a line-up like that rounded off my re-read of all of 2000ad's content over these 45 years. Cos there's no way one single strip can perfectly sum it up is there... except...

The Out quite perfectly does. Well except the variable quality as its out and out pure fried gold comics. It has eye popping art. Its both powerful emotionally and light and hilarious. Its all the brilliant characters. It has extremes if violence, but they dance against our expectation literally. Its short tales, filling gaps to build a magnificent whole. Its eye popping art, have I said that, well damn it deserves repeating. And a story that twists. And most importantly its so atypically 2000ad, is so far from the norm that it is so perfectly 2000ad. If there's one thing this comic does better than anything its innovate, change and grow with us, while offering up the expected, stretching its boundaries and doing all that with the very, very best comics.

That's The Out that is. the perfect summary of 45 years of thrill power. Knowing that a strip that's only 2 years old is the very, very best this comic has to offer...

... well until the next best thing we've not read yet.

The end (not the end)
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Anthony Garnon on 24 January, 2022, 08:32:14 PM
Bravo!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 27 January, 2022, 09:39:05 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SuHrhej.png)

A life with Tharg

So there we have it. I've read the special and FCBD comic and to be honest haven't got much to say over the reviews I did months ago and so... well that's it. We're done...

See Ya!

Welllll okay I'm not quite done I have this post, which I've been kinda dreading - no pun and all that - how the hell do I sum all this up. Almost 6 years of reading, 2500ish comics and annuals and specials and what not, 70000ish pages... and a lifetime.

See I'm lucky I was born into a generation that's been growing alongside 2000ad. Five when it launched, as it was finding its feet I was learning to read and my head was a malleable young mush that Tharg banged into a thrill shaped receptacle hungry for more... we grow up together, we entered our ackward teenage years together and spotily, clumsy we tried to grow into adults, it was messy and unpleasent at times. As we entered that adulthood we did some great things, some amazing fun things, but it was all a bit brash and silly on occasion. We both stretched boundaries as we tried to work out who we are.

Then, together* we settled down. Found the partners that would take us to maturity and a seemingly a steady, tired, 'dull', we weren't anarchic and carefree, We had become the very establishment we had kicked and strained against. But in doing that we produced probably the greatest things we had done. They might have lacked, or seemed to have lacked, the cutting edge of the past, but that was because we knew there was more to this life. That didn't take those drives and ideas from us. It didn't stop me having that desire to push things in different directions. It did however shape those ideas with a smarter, more adult edge that found its anti-authoriation kick in subtler smarter ways. We couldn't and shouldn't be the way we where as kids, our growing is done - we'd had that and now we needed to grow beyond it and be better.

And we both are. I don't regret what I was. In fact I remember it so fondly and love reflecting on what we both did, yes at times miss it... a little. Then I realise I'm better now, we're better and it needed that punch and drive, then, to become more now. I don't want to relive my past. I want to use it to grow beyond it.

And that my friends is what I've learnt about 2000ad these past 6 years. I love and relish that fun, ackward, foolish and magnicient past, but I'm so happy that its also grown beyond, not by abandoning it, but by embracing it for what it was, but not having it shackle what it has become...

...except...

... well except now part of that growing up is looking to pass the baton on. To find ways to hand over to the next generation. Not by shaping them in our image, but allowing them to grow up as themselves, to love them for what they have taken from our past, but accepting what they need to do to become something more. Something beyond us... but not excluding us taking us along with them.

See you should remember Tharg shaped my malleable mind back then, but like his own in doing that he realised that he and I had to change and grow and to remain malleable and open to the new. So we both done just that and the Regened is its embodiment. They too are trying to find what they will become and there will be the same stumbling, learning steps. But I'm there to help them along cos I see the things that they need to become, not to replace me, but to amaze me with what's next.

That's what 2000ad is, that's what its best stories are. Not Dredd, or Nemesis, not Halo or Bad Compnay, nor Zenith or Dante, no Cradlegrave or Zombo, not even Blink, or The Out. The best stories are next weeks and the week after, the ones we've not read yet, the thrill of what's to come, not just the thrill of looking back, but rather looking forward to the unknown beyond what we can see now.

Thanks Tharg, its been a fun growing up with you.

Let's go exploring.

* yeah I'm being a little fast and loose with the precise timing for dramatic effect!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 27 January, 2022, 10:16:01 PM
Next prog...
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 29 January, 2022, 09:41:36 PM
Went to the Nerd Cave this morning to get my next batch of comics out for reading... there were no 2000ad in them.

That felt weird!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: I, Cosh on 12 February, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 January, 2022, 09:39:05 PM
... well that's it. We're done...

Welllll okay I'm not quite done I have this post, which I've been kinda dreading - no pun and all that - how the hell do I sum all this up. Almost 6 years of reading, 2500ish comics and annuals and specials and what not, 70000ish pages... and a lifetime.
Hey Colin. Well done on both your big reread and your recording of it. It's both fascinating and quite sweet to follow your enthusiasm and changing reactions to stuff.

I'd also like to apologise for not responding or commenting  more. At the start I was all fired up to get engaged with the conversation but gradually fell away. I frustrate myself by wanting to talk about my thoughts and reactions to art but finding it impossible to get something down. I really admire the way your able to jot down something interesting so seemingly easily. I have the same apprehension with Funt and his entertaining Thrill Coma thread. I still feel like I need to gather my thoughts and apologise about something related to Grey Area from two years ago.

Anyway, sorry for the dull diversion. Great stuff. When does the next one start?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Funt Solo on 12 February, 2022, 10:53:07 PM
How about reading them all in reverse order, in honor of The Reversible Man (prog 308)?

Or you could do Crisis. Or fact-check Crisis's opening inside cover. A Diceman playthrough?
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 13 February, 2022, 01:19:54 AM
I could deal with Neighbours not being on telly anymore, but this thread coming to an end is too much.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 February, 2022, 06:32:47 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 13 February, 2022, 01:19:54 AM
I could deal with Neighbours not being on telly anymore, but this thread coming to an end is too much.

So there we have revealed what I'm doing next. I'm starting my career in music, as the nation's pop princess!
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 February, 2022, 06:48:36 AM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 12 February, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
I really admire the way your able to jot down something interesting so seemingly easily. I have the same apprehension with Funt and his entertaining Thrill Coma thread...

Thanks Cosh. I'm alway a little surprised that anyone paid any attention to my wittering here. The self-absorbed ws always 'for real'. This thread was always designed for me to gather my thoughts, almost as a personal diary of my re-read.

As for getting things down, well I can't speak for Funt Solo, who always seems to have much more wit, structure and insight into what he does, but I find not worrying about it and just spouting whatever mindless guff comes onto my head is the way to go. If it turns out to be interesting to others, well that's just good fortune! Heck if you drop as much crap into this place as I do the laws of probability as on your side anyway.
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 13 February, 2022, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 February, 2022, 06:32:47 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 13 February, 2022, 01:19:54 AM
I could deal with Neighbours not being on telly anymore, but this thread coming to an end is too much.

So there we have revealed what I'm doing next. I'm starting my career in music, as the nation's pop princess!

I should be so lucky
Title: Re: The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread
Post by: Colin YNWA on 13 February, 2022, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 13 February, 2022, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 February, 2022, 06:32:47 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 13 February, 2022, 01:19:54 AM
I could deal with Neighbours not being on telly anymore, but this thread coming to an end is too much.

So there we have revealed what I'm doing next. I'm starting my career in music, as the nation's pop princess!

I should be so lucky

Oh now that is good!