Creator, co-creator, developer or mere peon? Sometimes, it's difficult to tell who's who, or what each appellation even means. In the creative industry of comics, isn't everyone a creator? (Obviously, not the letterers.*)
Do we need new words? Originator? Conceptor! And just because you came up with the idea, you might not write the script. And you almost certainly don't own the property. You might come up with the idea, then write the first script - and someone else gets paid to write all the others, but somehow never gets the "creator" title even though they beavered away creating the majority of the actual character arc, dialogue, plotting and adventure. Or a significant portion of it.
Is Ken Niemand** (for example) one of the creators of Judge Dredd? A co-creator? A developer? An employee? Just a ... writer? It seems odd that you could take someone who understands the intricate world of Mega-City One so intimately and just dismiss them as some kind of easily replaceable cookie-cutter professional. Sure, we should honour the originators, but as they hang up their spurs don't we want other creators to have their chance at fame and fortune (within a small, tight-knit industry on the verge of collapse - ha ha - nervous laughter).
Which brings up that other question: should there be no more Judge Dredd if Wagner retires? I don't think anyone imagines that reality. No more Sherlock? Of course not: demonstrably. No more Slaine? Ah...
*I'm joking. Although they never do get listed as creators in the Nerve Centre sense of the word. Like the lighting technicians of the movie industry - it's not *their* vision. Except, without them...
**I chose him because, as he's not real, it's impossible to offend.
(https://i.imgur.com/MCTVa4y.png)
This was the same issue with Spiderman, which was thx to Stan's machinations behind the scenes. Or Bob Kane in that regard.
Depends how much writer/artist had his hands on the character or title. I remember Mike W. Barr saying how he reportedly developed Son of the Demon in great detail with Dick Giordano. But rightfully, we didn't get Giordano's name in the credit section. To me, Mills was someone who co-conceptualized Dredd with Wagner and at least initially was forefront of the stories. Cursed Earth, which is where Dredd became the star of 2000ad and practically the character we are all familiar with has been (mostly) written by Mills. Up 'til that point, everything was just an experimentation.
I agree that it's not entirely helpful to use "creator" interchangeably for two different things: both the creative team on a particular project and also for, I suppose, more accurately the originators of a specific character/story/setting.
When, to take your example, Ken Niemand and (say) Patrick Goddard collaborate on a Dredd story, they're clearly the creators of that specific story and, indeed, of any new character they might introduce. They don't retroactively get to be creators of Judge Dredd by adding to the existing mythos. That's just not how it works.
It's much the same as the modern version of Wolverine owing far more to the work of Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne than to the Wein/Trimpe guest star in Incredible Hulk #180,* but Wein and Trimpe are the character's creators. Likewise, Swamp Thing has more closely resembled the vision of Moore and Bissette than Wein and Wrightson for decades, but they don't get listed as creators.
(Interestingly, Jamie Delano gets a credit as co-creator of John Constantine for developing the character in Hellblazer, but that was specifically down to Moore asking DC to do that, since he felt Delano's contribution was as important his own.)
*Remember that we didn't even find out that Logan's claws weren't part of his costume until Claremont/Cockrum era X-Men.
Quote from: milstar on 06 September, 2021, 06:05:24 PM
Cursed Earth, which is where Dredd became the star of 2000ad and practically the character we are all familiar with has been (mostly) written by Mills.
This is an outlying reading of the situation. You'll find that most consider Wagner's detailing of Mega-City One, and his characterization of Dredd as an anti-hero as being closest to the established milieu. Conversely, Mills writes Dredd usually as hero and savior.
In terms of world-building: most folk have avoided the rather silly floating rocks that were taken from Damnation Alley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation_Alley) (and used as a reason not to fly to Mega-City Two). I'm not sure why Mike Carroll chose to resurrect them for Desperadlands, but each to their own.
Luna-1, with its inclusion of the Sov Judges, is far more significant in terms of world-building than The Cursed Earth.
The two main Dredd outings by Mills don't have anything of what he claims to bring to the character. He's pretty much a generic hero, a little stiff and stoic but not "fear and terror".
He's certainly a contributor to what Dredd became through his work in an editorial/managerial role on it, and if any 2000ad character could be claimed to be a group effort* it's certainly Dredd, but I'd always say Wagner and Ezquerra are the primary creators and deserve to be credited as such.
* a "house character", as Mills has put it, I guess.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 06 September, 2021, 07:01:42 PM
This is an outlying reading of the situation. You'll find that most consider Wagner's detailing of Mega-City One, and his characterization of Dredd as an anti-hero as being closest to the established milieu. Conversely, Mills writes Dredd usually as hero and savior.
In terms of world-building: most folk have avoided the rather silly floating rocks that were taken from Damnation Alley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation_Alley) (and used as a reason not to fly to Mega-City Two). I'm not sure why Mike Carroll chose to resurrect them for Desperadlands, but each to their own.
Luna-1, with its inclusion of the Sov Judges, is far more significant in terms of world-building than The Cursed Earth.
And hero and savior was how Wagner wrote him in the earliest strips as well.
As for Luna-1, Sov Judges, for overarching mythology, they are important inclusions, but Cursed Earth is more important in terms of influence on the Dredd strip overall.
I just had a quick glance at my Dredd data (https://2kstages.github.io/AtoZ/JudgeDredd/1977.html) and it's interesting to see the different bits of the world that still have a major impact from different writers.
For example, it looks like the Statue of Judgement was Malcolm Shaw (along with Krong, who has shown up a few times since), and face change machines were Kelvin Gosnell. Gerry Finley-Day made smoking illegal. Mills invents Rico, of course.
I suppose that brings up the notion of writers having their own personal stable of supporting characters.
Shaw also did the booby-trapped exploding Lawgiver. He didn't create the character though, and if the term creator was used to describe anyone who developed an existing character then it would become meaningless.
Quote from: milstar on 06 September, 2021, 07:37:45 PM
And hero and savior was how Wagner wrote him in the earliest strips as well.
And my point over on the other thread was that there's a remarkably distinct point where Dredd unmistakably becomes identifiable as the Dredd of today, and that happens under Wagner, too:
QuoteIt was interesting to me that when I read the "Complete Judge Dredd" monthly reprints and finally read the first couple of years of the series in sequence, there was very noticeable point where Dredd became recognisably the Dredd of the modern era — specifically, the back end of the Luna-1 run and into the return to MC-1.
Wagner was firmly ensconced as the default writer, and Bolland squared off a lot of those round edges on the uniform, adding those SS lightning flashes to the visor. The moment where Dredd bellows at a potential leaper: "Don't do it, citizen — littering the streets is an offence!" was the exact point where I saw the Dredd I knew emerge from an awful lot of throw-it-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks experimentation.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 06 September, 2021, 10:26:18 PM
And my point over on the other thread was that there's a remarkably distinct point where Dredd unmistakably becomes identifiable as the Dredd of today, and that happens under Wagner, too:
But what is Wagner Dredd? Wagner wrote him in vast array of scenarios. From hero akin to Cursed Earth to arsehole breaking rudimentary rights of the citizens. Granted, John has been the main writer near his whole run, and saying where Pat stands there, is actually a still above other writers contributions to the lore. I have no doubt that both John and Pat worked on the origins of judge Dredd, albeit initially it was John and other writers who wrote most of the stories, until Cursed Earth.
Then again, the question is should we also give credit to creators who made their characters iconic look and manners, even though they weren't the one who started the whole thing. Carlos definitely drew the first Dredd and many others, but it was Bolland whose Dredd practically cemented the definite look of the character.
Quote from: milstar on 06 September, 2021, 11:06:30 PM
But what is Wagner Dredd?
Not that I expect to convince you from your path, because you have form, but I'll (partially) answer that question, even though Jim's already provided a perfectly clear explanation.
Wagner Dredd is telling stories where carefully hatched chickens later come home to roost*, providing you with a long-form believable milieu. Mills Dredd (which is mostly just The Cursed Earth) is borrowing the plot from someone else's novel and doing an endless chapter story (a bit like episodes of early Star Trek), where nothing from a previous sequence really matters in a later sequence (plus grudge-holding dinosaurs and a liberal sprinkling of mawkishness).
*For example, the Sov Judges from Luna-1 return to cause trouble in the Battle of the Black Atlantic: both of these serving as foreshadowing for the events of Pirates of the Black Atlantic, so that the events of Block Mania and The Apocalypse War aren't just dropped in from space.
QuoteCarlos definitely drew the first Dredd and many others, but it was Bolland whose Dredd practically cemented the definite look of the character.
Not really. Bolland was an iconic artist, but the appearance of the character was already very well established before he worked on the strip.
It's not "Judge Dredd: created by Pat Mills and Brian Bolland."
"Stop trying to make 'fetch' happen. Fetch is never going to happen."
Here is a formula to make your life easier: Dredd = (Wagner * 0,95) + (The Others * 0,05)
Quote from: broodblik on 07 September, 2021, 04:13:11 AM
Here is a formula to make your life easier: Dredd = (Wagner * 0,95) + (The Others * 0,05)
I just got nerd-triggered by the use of a comma rather than a period for the decimal point - but then I remembered this video:
58 and other Confusing Numbers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4bmZ1gRqCc)
, is the new style Excel whereas . is old-school
Quote from: Richard on 07 September, 2021, 01:16:55 AM
Not really. Bolland was an iconic artist, but the appearance of the character was already very well established before he worked on the strip.
It's not "Judge Dredd: created by Pat Mills and Brian Bolland."
"Stop trying to make 'fetch' happen. Fetch is never going to happen."
Whose Dredd is more recognizable? I doubt it's Carlos'. But I give Carlos the credit as the first ancestor.
And sorry, but I think Pat Mills has to have his say. Unless he decisively cut his ties with the character. Then again, I think the question here is whose version is more impact ful in the eyes of readers. I think many will say that for modern Batman, thanks to Frank Miller.
Let's make this easier: Ezquerra came up with THE ENTIRE DESIGN. Without him, there's no bizarre fascistic uniform or huge bike. There's no iconic helmet. There's not even any Mega City One, since it was his image with massive 'organic' buildings that drove the change of setting. Bolland was important in ITERATING on the concept, and due to his prominence in US comics is known worldwide to a greater degree than Ezquerra. But iteration is not creation (in the sense of the original concept).
If a band does a great cover version of a song that is in some ways more memorable than the original, they still didn't write the original song.
I wonder if we're all rather glossing over the role of editor in all this?
To stick with the Dredd/Mills example, it is relevant, I think, that he actively chose which stories to commission and run in the early Progs, and who knows quite how much rewriting he did of any given panel sequence / word balloon, all of which helps add up to the Dredd we know today (a LOT, by his own reckoning..).
Getting away from Mills (as far as possible, ideally!) I fel that current editor Matt Smith must surely have had a big hand in 'creating' a vast array of thrills from the last two decades, just not on his own. Are you a creator if you merely suggest a name and basic look of a character (in which case, Bob Kane IS the creator of Batman) - or do you have to have a hand in shaping those first stories, and giving that character some sort of actual personality (in which case, Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson have a large claim ot have at the very least co-created Batman).
If a writer sends you an outline for a story, and the editor replies to say 'yes, but what if you changed the name to xx, and put them into situation y, and gave them some sort of side kick' - and the wrtier then follows all this advice - who, then, is the creator? (i.e. do John Tomlinson and Dave Bishop deserve co-creator status on Nikolai Dante, for pushing it into a sci-fi milieu, and pushing for intorductory stories, among other things?)
Annoyingly it all actually matters, because of copyright and payment norms and all sorts.
And although I've no idea how to do it legally / fairly, I think there is a case that when a new writer/artist takes on an existing character and manages to make them way more popular/interesting, they do deserve some sort of credit that isn't miles away from 'creator' - the most notorious example being Todd McFarlane and David Michelenie on Venom, I guess. But, you know, see also Gordon Rennie on Jaegir - a full cast of 'new' characters but on a technicality part of somebody else's creation (take your pick there between G F-D, Alan Grant, Steve MacManus and Dave Gibbons...)
This I one reason why I don't totally begrudge Stan Lee's status as 'creator' of all those superheroes. Sure, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko may have had all the ideas, but have you ever read any of the comics they scripted as well as drew? Barmy as heck, and in places entertaining - but they're not a patch on the sheer exuberance and enjoyment of the comics they wrote/drew that Lee scripted. He's a damn good writer, and I submit that those creations all flourished as much because of his contributions as because they were inherently great ideas from the artists.
The problem with Stan Lee has been in the marginalisation of those he worked with. Instead of "created by Stan Lee and", things have shifted to "created by Stan Lee".
As for editors, my take would be that they help creators iterate. They can be analogous to engineers or even producers in music. A producer may transform a song, but that doesn't mean they came up with it in the first place. In short, editors are there to provide guidance (and increasingly management) and to make work better. They might even say "I'd like a series about X". But apart from in very specific circumstances, it's a stretch to call them co-creators of strips.
(It's hard to overplay the sheer importance of Matt Smith to modern-era 2000 AD. And I've no doubt he's been heavily influential in a number of strips. But I doubt he sits there thinking he should have taken co-creator credits for a bunch of series that debuted during his tenure.)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 07 September, 2021, 07:41:10 AM
Let's make this easier: Ezquerra came up with THE ENTIRE DESIGN. Without him, there's no bizarre fascistic uniform or huge bike. There's no iconic helmet. There's not even any Mega City One, since it was his image with massive 'organic' buildings that drove the change of setting.
Yeah. I think it's hard to overstate how lucky 2000AD got with Ezquerra, even though Wagner famously hated the character design when he first saw it. His wide-ranging European influences are the reason we got his utterly outlandish Mega City One, and he was canny enough to both pick up on the fascist undertones of the strip, even way back then, and to bring his experience of
actually growing up in a fascist dictatorship to bear when visualising Dredd.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 06 September, 2021, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: milstar on 06 September, 2021, 06:05:24 PM
Cursed Earth, which is where Dredd became the star of 2000ad and practically the character we are all familiar with has been (mostly) written by Mills.
This is an outlying reading of the situation. You'll find that most consider Wagner's detailing of Mega-City One, and his characterization of Dredd as an anti-hero as being closest to the established milieu. Conversely, Mills writes Dredd usually as hero and savior.
In terms of world-building: most folk have avoided the rather silly floating rocks that were taken from Damnation Alley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation_Alley) (and used as a reason not to fly to Mega-City Two). I'm not sure why Mike Carroll chose to resurrect them for Desperadlands, but each to their own.
Luna-1, with its inclusion of the Sov Judges, is far more significant in terms of world-building than The Cursed Earth.
This is something I've thought about on my current prog slog - a lot of elements were introduced in the early days of Dredd, including a little of Dredd's character (though some parts definitely don't ring true with the Old Stoney Face we all know today). Then Dredd goes off to Luna-1, then off across the Cursed Earth, then Judge Cal happens, during which Wagner is firmly ensconced as sole writer (well, including the Grant Wagner Combine - and they were bouncing ideas off each other before Grant's name made it in to the credits). Once Cal left we got in to the true Dredd stories, with city and Judge pretty much as we know them today, citywide disasters and genuine character development notwithstanding. So I reckon Wagner had an idea of what he wanted to do with the story and partially used The Day the Law Died to clear the decks, in the same way he'd do with The Apocalypse War and Day of Chaos.
Lets make it again easy for everyone with an artists formula:
Dredd = (Ezquerra * 0,75) + (Bolland * 0,2) + (Other talented guys whom draw great pictures * 0,05)
Quote from: milstar on 07 September, 2021, 06:34:11 AM
Whose Dredd is more recognizable?
Carlos'. It's Carlos'.
I'm pretty sure for any actual 2000ad reader, Dredd is defined by Carlos, then probably one of McMahon, Bolland or Ron Smith. Maybe McNeil or Flint. Even then, Flint and McMahon (at least initially) were clearly drawing on inspiration from Carlos.
I think Bolland is only the definitive Dredd to people who only know the dark judges.
Quote from: broodblik on 07 September, 2021, 11:32:15 AM
Lets make it again easy for everyone with an artists formula:
Dredd = (Ezquerra * 0,75) + (Bolland * 0,2) + (Other talented guys whom draw great pictures * 0,05)
My revised formula:
Dredd = (Ezquerra * 0,75) + (Bolland * 0,1) + (Ron smith * 0,1) + (Other talented guys whom draw great pictures * 0,05)
Quote from: credo on 07 September, 2021, 12:17:05 PM
Quote from: milstar on 07 September, 2021, 06:34:11 AM
Whose Dredd is more recognizable?
Carlos'. It's Carlos'.
I'm pretty sure for any actual 2000ad reader, Dredd is defined by Carlos, then probably one of McMahon, Bolland or Ron Smith. Maybe McNeil or Flint. Even then, Flint and McMahon (at least initially) were clearly drawing on inspiration from Carlos.
I think Bolland is only the definitive Dredd to people who only know the dark judges.
Bolland drew unforgettable jawline, for me, first Brian then everybody else.
Quote from: AlexF on 07 September, 2021, 08:41:09 AM
I wonder if we're all rather glossing over the role of editor in all this?
To stick with the Dredd/Mills example, it is relevant, I think, that he actively chose which stories to commission and run in the early Progs, and who knows quite how much rewriting he did of any given panel sequence / word balloon, all of which helps add up to the Dredd we know today (a LOT, by his own reckoning..).
Getting away from Mills (as far as possible, ideally!) I fel that current editor Matt Smith must surely have had a big hand in 'creating' a vast array of thrills from the last two decades, just not on his own. Are you a creator if you merely suggest a name and basic look of a character (in which case, Bob Kane IS the creator of Batman) - or do you have to have a hand in shaping those first stories, and giving that character some sort of actual personality (in which case, Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson have a large claim ot have at the very least co-created Batman).
If a writer sends you an outline for a story, and the editor replies to say 'yes, but what if you changed the name to xx, and put them into situation y, and gave them some sort of side kick' - and the wrtier then follows all this advice - who, then, is the creator? (i.e. do John Tomlinson and Dave Bishop deserve co-creator status on Nikolai Dante, for pushing it into a sci-fi milieu, and pushing for intorductory stories, among other things?)
Annoyingly it all actually matters, because of copyright and payment norms and all sorts.
And although I've no idea how to do it legally / fairly, I think there is a case that when a new writer/artist takes on an existing character and manages to make them way more popular/interesting, they do deserve some sort of credit that isn't miles away from 'creator' - the most notorious example being Todd McFarlane and David Michelenie on Venom, I guess. But, you know, see also Gordon Rennie on Jaegir - a full cast of 'new' characters but on a technicality part of somebody else's creation (take your pick there between G F-D, Alan Grant, Steve MacManus and Dave Gibbons...)
This I one reason why I don't totally begrudge Stan Lee's status as 'creator' of all those superheroes. Sure, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko may have had all the ideas, but have you ever read any of the comics they scripted as well as drew? Barmy as heck, and in places entertaining - but they're not a patch on the sheer exuberance and enjoyment of the comics they wrote/drew that Lee scripted. He's a damn good writer, and I submit that those creations all flourished as much because of his contributions as because they were inherently great ideas from the artists.
Keep in mind that Wagner returned to the character I think after ten issues (starting with Robot Wars).
I like to think as creator as someone who had input on the character, but necessarily was the writer. In Batman's case, Bill Finger was properly robbed off by Bob Kane for years. At least from the perspective that first writer and artist receive the credit. And both had no one to edit their stories significantly or to put some input on the character.
In Stan's case..."Everyone can have an idea" - which is what allegedly Ditko told Stan. Marvel then was using their own method (synopsis, art, dialogue) so I agree with Ditko there. And I must say, Ditko's The Question and Kirby's Mr. Miracle are not bad at all. And spared by all the gimmickry that Stan did in his stories.
John & Carlos created Judge Dredd.
Pat & Mick created Rico, then with Brian they created the Cursed Earth.
Simples.
But who created Mega City 1? Certainly Carlos was involved - but beyond that?
And who created the idea of 'Judge, Jury and Executioner'? Was that in Wagner's original pitch, or was that a bit of Mills magic?
What I find more than a little confusing in all this is Mills' insistence on identifying Gerry Finley-Day as primary creator of Rogue Trooper (to the extent of labelling all other Rogue and Rogue-world series an affront to GFD's rights as creator) when Rogue is easily as much a 'house character' as Dredd.
Rogue's creation is pretty well-documented, in as much as GFD's initial pitch was deemed basically unusable, and the whole thing was thrashed out in a meeting between GFD, Gibbons and Steve Mac during which pretty much all of GFD's ideas went out of the window and the strip that finally appeared bore little resemblence to the one he had pitched.
If Steve Mac's editorial input into the strip's 'development' doesn't invalidate GFD's right to be considered as a primary creator alongside Dave,* then why does Pat's input (whatever it actually was) as 2000AD's editor invalidate John's right to be identified as the primary co-creator of Dredd?
*See also the perennial point about Pat's rage over writers other than the originator working on a series, but apparent indifference to replacing artists.
I think this whole argument is a little silly.
You know who decided that John Wagner would be the only writer created as the co-creator of Judge Dredd? Pat Mills, when he was the editor of 2000AD. It's a shame he's walked back from the strong adherence to the belief that the writer and artist who create the concept are the creators. I'm sure he would freak if his successors in the editor's chair got listed as co-creators on A.B.C Warriors or Slaine.
On the surface Mills has a somewhat valid argument for a "further developed by..." given the key role he played as editor in nailing the wider of context of Dredd down. But I think in reality you see that these contributions are more him siding with Ezquerra; Yes he overruled Wagner's objections to Dredd's costume but he didn't come up with it. Yes he came up with the name Mega Ciy One and moved the date of the series further into the future, but that was simply him responding Ezquerra's city landsapes. These were great moves, but they're not really acts of creation as Mills was never the one pushing for the series to go in a more futuristic direction, just responding to what one of the co-creators wanted to do.
And I think that's the key argument against listing Mills as a co-creator. It doesn't take anything away from Wagner - nothing changes the fact that it was Wagner came up with the idea of a Dirty Harry satire where a super-cop had the power to unleash instant justice. What listing Mills as co-creator does is give him undue credit for what is actually the influence that Ezquerra had on the development of the character i.e. move it into the future, lean into fascist imagery.
Incidentally I do think the arguments over Rico are a bit misleading, as someone who fell for these myself when I first read the Mega-History. Rico really wasn't that major a character in the character's history, until Wagner really started emphasising the idea of a Dredd lineage with the stories that followed Blood Cadets. Even Kraken was more about his brainwashing by the Judda than the idea that the Fargo bloodline was corrupted. The key thing that the stories Wagner has gotten from Rico this century, is that the idea that only he can add useful things to the mythos is wrong. But that doesn't make Mills a co-creator of Dredd.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 September, 2021, 10:41:43 AM
What I find more than a little confusing in all this is Mills' insistence on identifying Gerry Finley-Day as primary creator of Rogue Trooper (to the extent of labelling all other Rogue and Rogue-world series an affront to GFD's rights as creator) when Rogue is easily as much a 'house character' as Dredd.
Rogue's creation is pretty well-documented, in as much as GFD's initial pitch was deemed basically unusable, and the whole thing was thrashed out in a meeting between GFD, Gibbons and Steve Mac during which pretty much all of GFD's ideas went out of the window and the strip that finally appeared bore little resemblence to the one he had pitched.
If Steve Mac's editorial input into the strip's 'development' doesn't invalidate GFD's right to be considered as a primary creator alongside Dave,* then why does Pat's input (whatever it actually was) as 2000AD's editor invalidate John's right to be identified as the primary co-creator of Dredd?
*See also the perennial point about Pat's rage over writers other than the originator working on a series, but apparent indifference to replacing artists.
Honestly, I was asking myself why GFD hasn't developed more scripts. Or he was more known as "ideas man", than full scripter. Too bad we don't see him doing work today.
Quote from: milstar on 21 September, 2021, 08:01:20 PM
Honestly, I was asking myself why GFD hasn't developed more scripts. Or he was more known as "ideas man", than full scripter. Too bad we don't see him doing work today.
I think he had a reputation for being a great ideas man, and while his scripting fell out of favour, he still knew how to keep a weekly serial moving pretty effortlessly. Simon Geller's interview in the Meg touches on this - he talks about lobbying to take over Rogue, feeling he could do better, and coming to the fairly sharp realisation that what Finley-Day did wasn't quite as simple as it seemed.
GFD had a bit of a rep for being a wild ideas man with the photographers who worked on the New Eagle too - I've spoken to a couple, and they have some anecdotes about GFD turning out scripts for them that featured characters in an aeroplane, or an army tank, or both together (not an easy thing to source for shoots!) and having to meet with editorial to try and push back on that, only for subsequent scripts to call for the action to take place in a burning building!
Quote from: milstar on 21 September, 2021, 08:01:20 PM
Honestly, I was asking myself why GFD hasn't developed more scripts. Or he was more known as "ideas man", than full scripter. Too bad we don't see him doing work today.
Short version: there's no shortage of people who want to write comics. Maybe, back in the days when there was an editor, an assistant editor, an editorial assistant, an art editor, an assistant art editor, publishers would indulge a writer whose scripts were, charitably, rough drafts. Now, if you're not going to turn in more-or-less copy-perfect scripts, no one has time to rewrite your shit. That's tough on people like GFD, but it's just how it is.
See also: all publishing. When I turned in my first piece for a mainstream tech mag around 2001, my editor expressed surprise and joy at how little he had to change. He remarked: you edited your own work! That was unusual then. I just assumed that's what people did. These days, you're kind of fucked if you don't, outside of celeb columns and a few old hands who have legacy deals with senior editors.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 September, 2021, 11:33:34 PM
Short version: there's no shortage of people who want to write comics. Maybe, back in the days when there was an editor, an assistant editor, an editorial assistant, an art editor, an assistant art editor, publishers would indulge a writer whose scripts were, charitably, rough drafts. Now, if you're not going to turn in more-or-less copy-perfect scripts, no one has time to rewrite your shit. That's tough on people like GFD, but it's just how it is.
Well, I am not going to pretend that I know how a perfect, professional script looks like (never have seen any to be honest), but if that's the case, fair enough. I still think he could be brilliant writer.
The issue isn't necessarily talent. It's just there are fewer people in the chain now, so writers have to do more. Those who always had the skills and/or impetus to do things more thoroughly are therefore more likely to find work than those who didn't—or didn't subsequently work on them.
Without wanting to be harsh, I suppose that's similar to the situation someone like John Smith finds himself in. Editors no longer have the time to chase creators who struggle to meet deadlines or to organise alternative content if they're late. Even if, as readers, we might wish they did.
This might explain what feels* like a higher number of typoos than in the past.
*I haven't actually tabulated the data because fuuuuuuck.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 September, 2021, 11:33:34 PM
Quote from: milstar on 21 September, 2021, 08:01:20 PM
Honestly, I was asking myself why GFD hasn't developed more scripts. Or he was more known as "ideas man", than full scripter. Too bad we don't see him doing work today.
Short version: there's no shortage of people who want to write comics. Maybe, back in the days when there was an editor, an assistant editor, an editorial assistant, an art editor, an assistant art editor, publishers would indulge a writer whose scripts were, charitably, rough drafts. Now, if you're not going to turn in more-or-less copy-perfect scripts, no one has time to rewrite your shit. That's tough on people like GFD, but it's just how it is.
Well let's go further....it was actually in those people's interests to solicit rough round the edges work because it helped them demonstrate their value. If all they're doing is processing pristine scripts or artwork, then what are they there for?
EDITORS HIRING ILLITERATES SHOCKER
Quote from: Will Cooling on 22 September, 2021, 07:15:26 PMWell let's go further....it was actually in those people's interests to solicit rough round the edges work because it helped them demonstrate their value. If all they're doing is processing pristine scripts or artwork, then what are they there for?
A friend used to work on a major national newspaper. Every week, some old git would file 2000 words of half-arsed copy my friend would bash into shape, for the actual word count, which was far lower. The contributor was paid significantly more for that one column than my friend was for his entire job.
Quote from: Will Cooling on 22 September, 2021, 07:15:26 PM
Well let's go further....it was actually in those people's interests to solicit rough round the edges work because it helped them demonstrate their value. If all they're doing is processing pristine scripts or artwork, then what are they there for?
Ummm... no. That is
so not how it works.
I think i remember reading a few years back about Alan Grant saying that he could ask for credit for a lot of the original Rogue Trooper stories as he would have to rewrite a lot of Gerry Finely Day's scripts to make them fit and work and Pat Mills said he also had to edit some of Gerry's other work as well. So should writers who have been asked to go over another writers script be given credit as well
Quote from: rogue69 on 22 September, 2021, 10:33:13 PM
I think i remember reading a few years back about Alan Grant saying that he could ask for credit for a lot of the original Rogue Trooper stories as he would have to rewrite a lot of Gerry Finely Day's scripts to make them fit and work and Pat Mills said he also had to edit some of Gerry's other work as well. So should writers who have been asked to go over another writers script be given credit as well
Invasion!?
Quote from: rogue69 on 22 September, 2021, 10:33:13 PM
I think i remember reading a few years back about Alan Grant saying that he could ask for credit for a lot of the original Rogue Trooper stories
ISTR Alan saying that he was paid a decent (for back then) amount of money for an uncredited re-write of Harry 20, too.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 September, 2021, 08:19:52 AM
ISTR Alan saying that he was paid a decent (for back then) amount of money for an uncredited re-write of Harry 20, too.
...Too slow for an edit!
Which makes me wonder if Alan (or someone else) also had a big hand in Fiends of the Eastern Front — arguably GFD's best series, certainly in terms of consistency of tone and absence of 'out there' elements tossed into the mix (eg: Disco Rogue from Fort Neuro).
Although this does mean we missed out on Disco Fiends. Tsk.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 September, 2021, 08:30:17 AM
Fiends of the Eastern Front — arguably GFD's best series, certainly in terms of consistency of tone and absence of 'out there' elements tossed into the mix (eg: Disco Rogue from Fort Neuro).
Even then, there's still a few! Hans Schmitt's drawing of the 10 silhouettes in the basement before he dies is nonsensical, in best GFD fashion.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 September, 2021, 10:55:32 AM
Although this does mean we missed out on Disco Fiends. Tsk.
I mean, we're often getting Fiends stories from different time periods in the Hallowe'en specials. All you have to do is wish hard enough...
INT: Bee Gees mansion. The three brothers are rehearsing, but there's a black shadow on the wall.
Barry Gibb: "Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive!"
Constanta: "You won't be staying alive, high-pitched human! For you will now be part of my undead army of disco!"
Barry Gibb: "Tragedy!"
Maurice Gibb: "Run to me!"
*THE LIGHTS GO OUT*
Robin Gibb: "I can't see nobody!"
Constanta: "Now you're going to get some NIGHT FEVER!"
*SFX: MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH*
This stuff writes itself!
That's some funny Words IndigoPrime. Not just Jive Talkin'...
I'll leave the rest to others...
The ghost of Kenny Everett called. He wants his 40 year old sketch back.
I'm pretty sure that the Everett Bee Gees sketch (https://youtu.be/TsE-Dqok5mY) is responsible for Clive Anderson thinking it was okay to treat them like a laughing stock to their faces. Clive's face is something of a picture as they walk out (https://youtu.be/LBCPsAZVdVY).
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Editing someone's text doesn't make you a co-author, methinks. I suppose it depends how much editing is required?
A bit off - topic, but couldn't find an appropiating thread.
https://www.themix.net/2021/09/steve-ditko-estate-files-to-terminate-marvel-copyrights-over-spider-man-and-doctor-strange/?utm_source=right-rail-latest (https://www.themix.net/2021/09/steve-ditko-estate-files-to-terminate-marvel-copyrights-over-spider-man-and-doctor-strange/?utm_source=right-rail-latest)
And...
https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/9/24/22691842/disney-marvel-sues-comic-artist-iron-man-avengers
(https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/9/24/22691842/disney-marvel-sues-comic-artist-iron-man-avengers)
I really struggle with "Estates" - their kids didnt make it, why should they benefit from it any more than the company who invested in publishing it in the first place?
That said, I'm not a fan of inheritance as a concept in general, so might not be the one to comment on this one!
Quote from: Funt Solo on 23 September, 2021, 06:55:49 PM
Editing someone's text doesn't make you a co-author, methinks. I suppose it depends how much editing is required?
I depends upon how extensive the rewrite is. Margaret Wander Bonano had requested her name be removed from the Star Trek novel
Probe (https://fanlore.org/wiki/This_is_the_tale_of_PROBE:_The_Novel_I_Didn%27t_Write)as it had been rewritten by her editor to bring it in line with new conditions in the publisher's contract with Paramount that only 7% of her original manuscript remained, but it was two late as they had already printed the dust jackets.