The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

You know what, Locusts - you're absolutely right. I shouldn't drive a lorry until they figure out how to make them run on clean free energy, shouldn't deliver food until the corporations mend their ways, shouldn't access any of the infrastructure belonging to my society until the government stops financing it with toxic debt money, shouldn't eat meat until all cruelty in farming is eliminated, shouldn't vote until the government is perfect, shouldn't post anything anywhere without being 100% certain that it won't frustrate other people, shouldn't do anything at all until the world is perfect enough for me to do things in.
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You're absolutely right again when you say I'm concerned for myself but incorrect in your assumption that I care for nobody else. (When you were going through tough times over the last couple of years I never offered you a shoulder to cry on or any words of comfort or encouragement, did I?) The whole point of my entire position is that I believe we should all take personal responsibility for own lives - which is a fundamentally arrogant position on the face of it.
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Let's take your point about Nestle (or anybody) charging money for an essential of life. Leaving aside all the moral, economic and practical arguments concerning the sale of bottled water, I have no objection to the fundamental concept - people can sell anything they like because that's how capitalism works. As it happens, I am against the current practices involved with the sale of bottled water and so don't buy any. I also argue against it when the topic arises. I don't wait for a heroic politician to come along and ban it - I ban it myself, personally.
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I think your problem with me, Locusts, is that you want me to do more. You want me to be the kind of loudmouth who stands up and says "I know what to do, leave it to me!" You want me to fix the world, somehow, for you and everyone else and, if I can't do that, I should sit down and shut up. But I can't fix the world for you and make it better, nobody can. Nobody ever has and nobody ever will.
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Like most people, you're waiting for a hero to come along on a white horse and save us all. Believers in Authority await the coming of a new wise king just as believers in God await the second coming of an old wise king - in either case, people just wait and think it's okay to let things slide because someone with the wisdom and power to make everything right will be along soon. Politicians love pretending to be that leader and the people love buying into that pretence - just look at Obama's elevation to near godhood prior to his election and the vast disappointment left in his wake. Leaders don't work any more - the world's too complex for such an outmoded position to be useful.
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Nobody is coming to rescue you. Nobody and nothing.
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You have to help yourself and those around you. I believe the term is, or was, "enlightened self-interest".
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I am humbled to learn that you see me as a saint or martyr, Locusts, but I wish you wouldn't. The desire for saints and martyrs is a symptom of the deep hero-need I mentioned earlier - someone whose job it is to make your life better, to fix the world for you. Well, I can't fix your world and it would be wrong of me to even try. I'm trying to fix my world, that's all - because my world is the only world out of seven billion that I have any right or responsibility to change. All I do here is try to explain what I'm doing and why in the hopes that at least some of it can be of help to others and the perspectives of others can be of help to me. Then, if you want to go off and change your own world then you can do it and I'll help as best as I can but, if that all seems too much like hard work or too dangerous, you can carry on as you are and wait for your Saviour to come along.
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In my view, you are the One you've been waiting for.
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So, everything you say is basically true, Locusts, except for the part about me not being concerned about others. I found that comment particularly hurtful, especially coming from you. Being a "saint", though, I forgive you.

[JPMaybe]

Good god, you're like some kind of living personification of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[TordelBack]

Good god, you're like some kind of living personification of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

You need to specify which side of the Dunning-Kruger effect applies for that to be a useful observation.  Perhaps you over-estimate your understanding of the application of the term?   

More seriously, the Shark presents himself as a questioner and challenger of things, rather than assuming a level of expertise he doesn't have.  I agree, the rejection of positions held by vast numbers of dedicated experts might make it look like he's asserting a contrary and superior expertise, but I see it as significantly different: a refusal to accept the status quo, given the status quo's general shittiness.

[The Legendary Shark]

Well, I just Googled the Dunning-Kruger effect. Very interesting reading, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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I'm sure I do overestimate my abilities somewhat but, if I didn't, wouldn't I be held back by the "I can't do that" syndrome? (Which, to some extent I still am.) If I overestimated my abilities too much I'd be setting up campaigns and organizing rallies based on knowledge which I'm not even 100% sure is accurate.
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So yes, I can recognise that part of the D-K effect in myself. I also recognise in me that part of it saying that if I find something easy to understand then others must find it easy also. I had not noticed that about myself, so now I have something new to think on.

[Theblazeuk]

What Tord said.


Though I think the compulsion to make a principled stance over a practical solution borders on the mad, the saddest thing is the hostility provoked in some by this. Doesn't hurt anyone other than himself and the fact that coppers lie and claim to have been assaulted to fulfill their own ends should be the real source of anger, no? V. sad that most of us will just accept underhanded tactics by the authorities as the norm. They could have kicked him out without the fabricated assault charge - and before anyone says it's Shark's word against theirs, I am never so credulous as to believe CCTV goes missing as a matter of convenience.

[TordelBack]

Pshaw, there's only one logical endpoint of Sharky following through on his beliefs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJSOT83BX-U&feature=youtu.be

Bring it on, TLS!

[The Legendary Shark]

Can't watch videos on this old 'phone, unfortunately.
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Thanks for your understanding and tolerance, folks :-)

[JamesC]

I don't get the aggressive attitude towards Sharky - I say it's a good thing to speak out if you don't agree with something.
It reminds me of people slagging off Russell Brand on Facebook.
I don't agree with everything TLS or Russel Brand have to say but I think it's pretty clear that they are dissatisfied with society and are prepared to stand up and say so. There's a value to that. There's a value to sticking your head above the parapet, even if the only thing it proves is that the snipers are still there.

[TordelBack]

Can't watch videos on this old 'phone, unfortunately.

This is what I was going for with that link, though no guarantees gifs will work for you either:



So:

[Tiplodocus]

Indeed. I'm not a fan of this "Go all the way or get out" attitude. 

I won't quote the the famous example of the man and the beached starfish.

But this world is utterly stacked against you in terms of doing anything that goes against the status quo. To be truly vegan without going back to live in a cave and growing my own crops would be impossible. 

Animal by-products are used in a ridculous amount of things that don't need them. 

But by getting people to stop using animal products for food and drink and clothing will reduce the by-products available for use in other indistries and they will have to start using the alterniative, ethical and cruelty free versions of products.

It's the start of a trickle down effect that wouldn't happen if I just said "No, that's too hard, pass me the beef wellington."

[The Legendary Shark]

I think the aggression might stem from discomfort. I'm asking questions about things most of us thought we understood, like the nature of freedom and authority.
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From Day One in school we are taught one thing above all others: Obey and Trust Authority. If a child has a problem, any problem, it is trained to look first and foremost to authority for a solution. "Mi-iss! Sharky just pulled my hair!" "Mi-iss! Sharky's got his widgie out again!" "Mi-iss! Sharky's the worst classroom assistant we've ever had!" (Another failed career...)
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That's all very well in youngsters but it never changes. Even up to the last year of school I was expected to ask for permission to go for a piss. Then, when you're out of school you've already been conditioned to go to authority with any problem or need as if only authority has the answers. We trust it because we've been conditioned to accept it largely without question, largely ignoring all the obvious disparities. Like finding out that Santa doesn't exist, finding out that authority doesn't exist is traumatic.
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It's, maybe, caused by the death of a belief. What are the stages of loss, again? Disbelief, anger, pleading, Happy, Sneezy, Curly, Larry and misery, or something?
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I reckon that's where the anger comes from, some of it anyway. The majority of it is probably just a side-effect of my winning f*cking personality.

[Banners]

...or perhaps to do with your use of full stops between paragraphs.

;-)

[The Legendary Shark]

Heh, Tordels - is that me tied to the front of the car? :-D

[The Legendary Shark]

If I don't put a full stop between paragraphs, for some reason this old 'phone posts everything as a single block of text with no paragraph breaks at all - which is more annoying.
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Especially given how long-winded I am.
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Sorry about that.
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[TordelBack]

Heh, Tordels - is that me tied to the front of the car? :-D

Nah this is you, astride your delivery van:



Own the inevitable consequences of your anarchism, Shark, own them!