The Political Thread

[Frank]

Farage came across as a stuttering prick, tying himself in knots in that LBC radio interview, but The Sun and the rest of the news media who are stepping into party political line by denouncing him are hypocrites:

UKIP leader stands by his assertion that people have a right to be concerned if a group of Romanians move in next door

Nigel Farage said: "UKIP will never allow the false accusation of racism levelled by a politically correct elite to prevent the raising of issues that are of concern to the great majority of the British public. "The unfortunate reality is that we are in political union with a post-Communist country that has become highly susceptible to organised crime.

High levels of crime associated with Romanian nationals in Britain, corroborated by police sources and statistics, have been a major talking point in the British media for several years.

See, for example, The Sun 10/11/2013 "We're coming to Britain as it's easier to steal and pickpocket"

Also, Daily Mail 30/11/2013 disclosing that "More than 27,000 Romanian citizens have been held for serious offences in London in the past five years, including ten for murder, 142 for rape and 666 for other sex offences."

Also Daily Express 11/1/2014 "Romanian gangs 'behind half of pickpocketings'"

Also London Evening Standard 03/10/2013 "Europol warning over Romanian gangs"

[Jim_Campbell]

A couple of pages back, I cited a stat about the relative expenditure of effort by the DWP chasing benefit fraud and HMRC chasing avoided/evaded tax.

Radio 4's excellent 'More Or Less' dismantled that stat on Friday. I'm very fond of quoting them when they take apart a government claim, so it's only fair I correct the stat when they demolish one I've used. FWIW, the numbers in the stat I referenced for DWP/HMRC are sourced, but use a very restrictive definition of HMRC investigators and a very high estimate for dodged tax.

This is annoying, because there is no need for that kind of distortion, as the more realistic figures still show this:



Proportionately, roughly ten times the manpower being expended by DWP chasing benefit fraud than HMRC are expending on avoided/evaded tax. And the government is still cutting HMRC budgets.

[Jim_Campbell]

Also, Daily Mail 30/11/2013 disclosing that "More than 27,000 Romanian citizens have been held for serious offences in London in the past five years, including ten for murder, 142 for rape and 666 for other sex offences."

Heh. 'More Or Less' did this one, too. The 27,000 figure is the number of arrests not the number of arrestees. The number is made up of a much smaller number of people, getting arrested a lot of times. Not that anyone should be surprised that the Mail would distort statistics to support a bit of inflammatory anti-immigrant rhetoric, mind...

Cheers

Jim

[JayzusB.Christ]

Jesus wept.  To quote Viz quoting Griffin, '...said the bozz-eyed shitter'.

Odd to see the Sun speaking out against homophobia.  It's a bit rich coming from a paper that employed both Gary Bushell and Richard Littlejohn to write hate-filled, queer-bashing rants on a regular basis, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

[Steve Green]

I don't know if it will be an actual permanent change, or a temporary 'Fuck. What have we created?' attitude to UKIP from the likes of the Sun/Mail/Express.

[ZenArcade]

It's something which has a momentum of it's own, that's why there is panic, anything which is uncontrollable by the powers that be is scary. The pity is, the thing beyond immediate control is so unpalatable to the left as well as the right.

[Old Tankie]

I am genuinely torn at the moment.  Always voted Tory but I'm wavering now.  You can't get a fag paper between the established parties when it comes to the European Union and immigration.  When you have a political system in which all the main stream parties have the same view on Europe and immigration, people like myself, who have worries about the affect of immigration and Europe, are left with nowhere to go apart from not voting at all or voting for a party that has aspects to it that I don't agree with.  I don't agree with some of Farage's rhetoric but I don't agree with the European Union or uncontrolled immigration from the European Union either.

So where does my vote go?

[Jim_Campbell]

I don't agree with some of Farage's rhetoric but I don't agree with the European Union or uncontrolled immigration from the European Union either.

Fuck his rhetoric, what about his policies and the fact that he is a racist and his party is riddled from head to toe with racists?

(FWIW, EU migrants are net contributors to the UK economy, being far more likely to have jobs and pay taxes than they are to claim benefits.)

Jesus...

Jim

[Old Tankie]

What do you mean "Jesus.....", Jim?  Am I not allowed a different opinion to you?  I was trying to contribute to the general discussion in a sensible manner.  But,......... ah well, there you go!

[Jim_Campbell]

What do you mean "Jesus.....", Jim?  Am I not allowed a different opinion to you

Of course you are. I'm aghast that the only thing you find objectionable about Farage is his 'rhetoric'.

Jim

[Frank]

I am genuinely torn at the moment.  Always voted Tory but I'm wavering now ... I don't agree with the European Union or uncontrolled immigration from the European Union either. So where does my vote go?

Doesn't matter what Cameron wants, and Farage could only ever hope to be a minority partner in some kind of coalition with the Tories anyway.

[ZenArcade]

I think UKIP will do well in Europe; I'm not too sure about Westminister. The impact may be on discomforting the encumbent main-stream parties in marginals. This I guess os why there is merit (albeit a very cynical/pragmatic merit) in Cameron doing either of two things: a) attempting to reach out to the UKIP vote base, or b) attempting a compact with UKIP before the election. This will probably have a negative effect on the middle ground small c Conservative voters, who possibly find some UKIP rhetoric unpalatable.

[Old Tankie]

Well, his rhetoric is the only thing I've got to go on, isn't it?  I've never met the guy, don't know him personally, and I've not seen him physically attack an immigrant on the street, so what can I go on, apart from what he says.  Or have I misused the word "rhetoric"?

I've already said that I don't agree with some of the things he's said, the comments he made about Rumanians were stupid and racist, the billboards are daft, and there are some nutters in his party. But, Ukip's policy is to pull out of the European Union and control immigration, which I agree with.  Now, if the Tory party were promising that I'd definitely be voting for them again.

Yes, I basically agree with you, sauchie, that's the dilemma.

[Frank]

Ukip's policy is to pull out of the European Union and control immigration, which I agree with.  Now, if the Tory party were promising that I'd definitely be voting for them again. Yes, I basically agree with you, sauchie, that's the dilemma

I'm not sure you do, Tankie. Cameron's agreed to put continued EU membership to a national referendum by 2017. In a democracy, I'm not sure you can ask for much more than for everyone to be allowed to vote on the matter.

[Jim_Campbell]

But, Ukip's policy is to pull out of the European Union and control immigration, which I agree with.

And the other stuff UKIP want to do? Dismantle the NHS? Hand everyone on basic rate tax a massive tax rise whilst slashing income tax for millionaires? Scrapping paid maternity leave, statutory entitlement to annual leave, holiday pay and sick pay?

While I'm at it, why does Europe vex you so? EU migration, as I have already stated, is a net benefit to the UK economy, and there are more British citizens in other EU countries than there immigrants in this country. The cost of the EU to the UK government is barely 1% of it's annual expenditure — that's practically a rounding error.

The systematic stealth dismantling of the NHS? The privatisation of the state education system? Plans to sell our medical and tax information to private companies? Hundreds of millions of pounds spent hounding sick and disabled people on benefits until they commit suicide? The state of British railways (we spend more subsidising our railways now that we did when it was nationalised and yet every single train operator turns a profit)? The fact that the 1000 richest people in the UK increased their wealth by 15% last year while the rest of us got poorer; that those same 1000 people have a combined worth of 1/3 the annual GDP of the entire country...?

All these things, and you're prepared to hang your vote on the single issue of the EU? To the extent that you'd consider voting for a collection of racist nutbags whose policies will make almost everyone worse off, before you've even considered the economic catastrophe that actually leaving the EU would cause?

Yes, I'm baffled.

Jim