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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1696345 times)

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15840 on: 05 August, 2019, 10:37:15 AM »

 How on earth do we manage the complexity of this situation?


I think it starts with education - a winding down of the current Prussian model and introduction of a more Trivium-based method.

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Tjm86

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15841 on: 05 August, 2019, 11:58:12 AM »
Sorry, that has to be the most inane response to any situation 'let schools sort it out'!  Society has to start taking responsibility for this and let schools get on with providing the basics. 

Kids are only in lessons 25 hours a week for 39 weeks a year.  If schools are to take on everything that society demands of them then this has to double, something that is never going to happen.

The other square I would like to see circled is this: teachers are universally panned as utterly incompetent yet at the same also expected to be able to solve every single social problem that we encounter.

[ .... and breathe!  Sorry Sharky, it just really p****** me off how schools are used as a dumping ground for problems people don't have the courage to confront]

Theblazeuk

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15842 on: 05 August, 2019, 12:22:32 PM »
We don't need to get stuck in to changing present things because we'll be teaching kids better for the future

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15843 on: 05 August, 2019, 12:35:30 PM »

I said it starts with education - and not the type of education we inflict on our youth today, which was designed not to educate but to produce obedient citizens suitable to be workers and soldiers. An education system that teaches people how to think and not what to think.

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Greg M.

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15844 on: 05 August, 2019, 12:42:32 PM »
An education system that teaches people how to think

Pretty sure that's what I do in my job on a daily basis, but what would I know, I've only been a secondary school teacher for fourteen years.

sheridan

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15845 on: 05 August, 2019, 12:55:28 PM »
An education system that teaches people how to think

Pretty sure that's what I do in my job on a daily basis, but what would I know, I've only been a secondary school teacher for fourteen years.

Does the curriculum support you in teaching children how to think?

Greg M.

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15846 on: 05 August, 2019, 12:57:47 PM »
Yes.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15847 on: 05 August, 2019, 01:12:17 PM »

What's the most important thing you teach your students?

Is it to do as they're told and to ask permission? To eat when it's eating time and to ask permission if they want to perform some basic human function like going for a piss? Do you teach them that their sense of self-worth and achievement is provisional, based on approval from the system? Do you teach them that they have no choice but to do things the way you tell them and that they Must attend school or be punished? Do you teach them how to follow the subjects that appeal to them or that they must learn only the subjects available to them? Do you teach them that the word of the authority figure is law? Do you teach them to obey the bell and the clock without question? Do you teach them that helping each other is cheating? Do you teach them that the goal of education is to get a job? Do you teach them that they must conform?

These are the things I was taught and the way I was taught. I passed my old high school last week and was struck by all the new fences and gates erected within the grounds. It always felt like a minimum security prison and now it looks like one.

I recommend reading up on the ideas of John Taylor Gatto and the School Sucks Project, the Prussian education method and the Trivium and Quadrivium.

I have every respect for teachers, their drives and motivations and the pressures they're under - but I have little to respect for the framework in which they're forced to operate.

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Greg M.

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15848 on: 05 August, 2019, 01:15:10 PM »

What's the most important thing you teach your students?

Critical thinking. And creativity.

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15849 on: 05 August, 2019, 01:39:28 PM »
Primary school kids are supposed to know what subjects to focus on before trying them all?  Come on.  I chose four of my subjects at the age of 13, and two of them were mistakes. 
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15850 on: 05 August, 2019, 02:07:09 PM »

What's the most important thing you teach your students?

Critical thinking. And creativity.

Excellent.


Primary school kids are supposed to know what subjects to focus on before trying them all? 
 

Nope, not at all. Teach them the Trivium and they can teach themselves anything at any time, without getting locked into mistakes.

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Dive a little deeper - all is not as it seems. "Cyber pandemic" on the way. Devices to be "quarantined" (disconnected).

Hawkmumbler

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15851 on: 05 August, 2019, 02:14:37 PM »
For once, Sharky, we're on the same page. I'm actually writing my masters on the education system of the new millennium thus far, and how the Blairite push for University candidates at a young age lead a a generation of dissociated and confused young students who where pressured into specifically focusing on a minute end goal and, in the event of either falling down on the way or reaching end game and realizing it was a waste of time, has lead to considerable disillusionment in the education system and those who benefit off of it.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15852 on: 05 August, 2019, 02:40:59 PM »

That's good to hear, Hawkie. I think looking into John Taylor Gatto, the Prussian system, the trivium, unschooling, and School Sucks would give you some interesting food for thought (if you haven't done so already, of course).

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Dive a little deeper - all is not as it seems. "Cyber pandemic" on the way. Devices to be "quarantined" (disconnected).

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15853 on: 05 August, 2019, 02:52:43 PM »

What's the most important thing you teach your students?

Critical thinking. And creativity.

Excellent.


Primary school kids are supposed to know what subjects to focus on before trying them all? 
 

Nope, not at all. Teach them the Trivium and they can teach themselves anything at any time, without getting locked into mistakes.

Fair enough,  I don't know anything about the Trivium.  I do know that the education system is bollocks though.  I don't know how to fix it so maybe you're right.

I was good at art but that wasn't seen as a real subject, so we were taught by the career guidance teacher's clueless wife who couldn't draw and knew nothing about art history. 
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

Tjm86

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15854 on: 05 August, 2019, 03:09:23 PM »

I said it starts with education - and not the type of education we inflict on our youth today, which was designed not to educate but to produce obedient citizens suitable to be workers and soldiers. An education system that teaches people how to think and not what to think.

Fair enough sir, my apologies for a rather heated response.  As I say, the rather puerile response of the majority of politicians and commentators to every problem as being solvable by the education system tends to irk me a tad (!).

I'm wholeheartedly behind you on the quality of the educational diet we are forced to inflict on pupils at present.  I'm not sure that I agree with regards to the current level of indoctrination that schools are guilty of, they are too busy trying to cram the whole damn curriculum in to find time for that. 

For once, Sharky, we're on the same page. I'm actually writing my masters on the education system of the new millennium thus far, and how the Blairite push for University candidates ...

I'm going to be really pedantic here, he actually said 'higher education' which encompasses a far broader range of educational opportunities than just university.  At the time it also held out radically different prospects than today.  Until even 2008 graduates still stood a far better chance of employment than non-graduates although there was and is considerable variation in terms of prospects based on both subject and institution.  Granted the increasing number of graduates has diluted the value of degrees but this is as much the fault of business and industry that has spent more time and energy complaining about British workers than building up a long term and sustainable base. 

I would agree that there has been considerable pressure over the last 20 odd years for youngsters to go on to higher education in general and it has been narrowly defined by commentators as university but that pressure has generally come overwhelmingly from parents.  Alternative routes have frequently been shot down and it is a brave teacher or careers adviser that suggests them.  Ironically your average plumber or electrician can take home more than a number of graduate careers.

Perhaps the bigger issue is that 'education' is still so narrowly defined but also incredibly poorly conceptualised.  Competing theories about what it is, how it is experienced, what its purpose is ... That it is generally seen as institutionalised and only certain types of learning as valid (Foucault eat your heart out ...) ... that the way it is experienced so often puts all but the hardiest off learning for life when learning is a lifelong process ... Personally I think what is really astonishing is not so much that so little learning goes on for all the energy that goes into our educational systems but that so much goes on in spite of the overwhelming array of obstacles that successive governments have put in the way.  The only benefit of Brexit is that we are now looking at the longest period of stability in British schools in over 30 years (unfortunately after the biggest cluster f*** in the last 150 years).