The Political Thread

[sheridan]

Are European farmers going to refuse to trade with British markets because our servants in Westminster can't find a way of cutting their servants in Brussels into a piece of the profits?

Depends if they want to go to prison for smuggling or not.

Is it going to become unlawful to trade with the UK? I very much doubt it.

Doubt as much as you wish, it would be unlawful to trade with the UK without following trading laws.

[JayzusB.Christ]

'Brexit isn't going to be bad, because I don't believe it will be bad.'

And so the believers chug happily along towards disaster.

[The Legendary Shark]

So unless you're happy for people to go hungry and for diabetics to die, go and do a bit of reading.

I humbly bow to your superior logic.

[Hawkmumbler]

'Brexit isn't going to be bad, because I don't believe it will be bad.'

And so the believers chug happily along towards disaster.

It's alright, reddit user Ch@mbers4(((Bankers))) tells me we can survive off of chlorine chicken and these 'red pills'? So we should be alright then...

[IndigoPrime]

'Brexit isn't going to be bad, because I don't believe it will be bad.'
And so the believers chug happily along towards disaster.

Quite. And this is quite a varied coalition of sorts. I heard someone yesterday argue Airbus won't leave the UK because of the investment it's made here, and because it's a big company and will therefore "sort something out". Others are arguing the letter from a massive amount of the food industry (over half of major supermarkets, several fast food chains) about no-deal being a shit-show was because they were remainers in some sort of conspiracy, and therefore should be boycotted. And so on.

But then even my dad (who, fortunately, voted remain) was quite upbeat a while ago. He's been in sales since the 1970s and so is good at deals, but also applies logic. So his thinking is that there needs to be a good deal, and that's what we'll get. My point to him: we are no longer dealing with rationality nor logic. Brexit today is little more than a cult. It eschews facts and rules, and thinks we'll be fine, or we'll be better, or we can just do our own thing before Empire/God Save the Queen/British spirit. It is ludicrous.

I do get that most people don't get how international trade works, nor how things like single markets and customs unions operate. That's fair enough. But to then hand-wave away explanations of these things when they're offered just makes me think we deserve what we get. And what we're going to get – unless some miracle happens – is the broad equivalent of having sanctions applied to the UK, but having done this to ourselves.

And while I'm sure some Brexiters and others might think the line "people will die" is hyperbolic, tell that to diabetics who have already been told that under no-deal their supplies cannot be guaranteed, or the people who are already finding vital cancer treatments are in short supply.

Still: fewer Polish people and blue passports, eh? What a fucking prize.

[sheridan]

So unless you're happy for people to go hungry and for diabetics to die, go and do a bit of reading.

I humbly bow to your superior logic.

If you weren't a regular on this forum, I'd have said you're just trolling at this point.  You've admitted you haven't done any background reading on this, yet you're spouting wild claims.  They're not suggesting you bow to their logic, they're just suggesting you do a little research next time.

[Jim_Campbell]

Others are arguing the letter from a massive amount of the food industry (over half of major supermarkets, several fast food chains) about no-deal being a shit-show was because they were remainers in some sort of conspiracy, and therefore should be boycotted. And so on.

It's the utter refusal to engage with reality that is simultaneously maddening and terrifying. The revelation that Heathrow Airport had put a provision into its accounts for zero revenue for three months after March 29th was similarly greeted with cries of 'remainer propaganda!'

The notion that the second busiest international airport in the world would even contemplate writing off an entire quarter to make a political point is just deranged. There's no other word for it.

[The Legendary Shark]

Not trolling, Sheridan, just accepting the fact that arguing against ad hominem attacks is pointless.

I was going to post a more reasoned response but, given I.P. all but accused me of being happy to see people die instead of reading something (he doesn't say what or give any suggestions), I saw little point. If that's what he actually thinks I want then I have nothing more to say.

[IndigoPrime]

Oh give over. You're happy to play devil's advocate and spout extreme views all the time here. Do I literally think you want people to die? No. My actual comment was:

"So unless you're happy for people to go hungry and for diabetics to die, go and do a bit of reading."

The second bit of that was key. Go and do some research, rather than just saying "everything will be OK". Because the likely outcome of a reckless "leave right now" policy regarding Brexit is that people will suffer. We don't make enough (almost any) insulin in this country. It cannot be stored for any length of time. Cancer treatments cannot be guaranteed and are already a problem. We also just saw the EMA leave, obliterating the UK's position as a leader in pharma. Beyond that, the NHS will be dead in the water when the tax take collapses as we lose hundreds of thousands of jobs.

As for reading, I don't know. Even Wikipedia would be a good place to start regarding the basics of the single market and customs union, if you genuinely don't understand how these things work. My point, repeatedly, was that this isn't the time for hand-waving, or thinking the EU is punishing us as a part of some great conspiracy. It's more like we made a cake and now want our eggs back. Or, as someone said on Twitter, like we and 27 friends pooled all of our Lego decades ago, and spent years building amazing structures; but now the UK wants its bricks back. And it wants to carry on playing with all the other bricks without paying for new ones.

The thing is, many of us have never lived through real disruption on a national scale. We genuinely cannot understand what it is like. The way things are going in the Commons right now, it looks like we're soon going to find out.

[The Legendary Shark]

I think the problem is that I will always come at things like this from an anarchist perspective and you from a statist perspective.

I can appreciate some aspects of statism but these are few and maybe you can appreciate some aspects of anarchism but only a few.

Because of this, I will always see the whole Brexit thing (whichever side "wins") as utterly pointless while you will see it as vitally important. You simply cannot see it my way and I cannot see it yours. I have read a book or two about history, politics, economics and such - just as I'm sure you have - and the Wikipedia page on Brexit is, to me, no more or less helpful to me than the Wikipedia page on Star Wars' Rebel Alliance: interesting but ultimately pointless.

[Jim_Campbell]

Because of this, I will always see the whole Brexit thing (whichever side "wins") as utterly pointless while you will see it as vitally important.

On one side of this argument, there are food shortages and a lack of cancer treatments and insulin. On the other, there aren't. Please explain how there is no difference between these two outcomes.

If you don't believe that this is an accurate assessment of the likely outcomes, it's incumbent on you to come back with some research, not on us to educate you so that you can disagree with us.

[The Legendary Shark]

On both sides are governments who believe they have the right to determine whether there are food shortages and a lack of cancer treatments and insulin. Please explain how there is a difference between these two sides.

You believe these people have the right to decide this because you vote for them. If you don't believe that this is an accurate assessment of the situation, it's incumbent on you to come back with some research, not on me to educate you so that you can disagree with me.

[Jim_Campbell]

And this is why no one wants to discuss anything with you. Leaving aside your snotty, condescending attitude, we always get back to your basic refusal to engage with reality.

Something is going to happen here, whether you accept the legitimacy of the political system or not. It is going to happen. If we leave the EU without any transitional arrangements, the basic mechanisms by which we import food, medical supplies and countless millions of components vital to thousands of businesses' supply chains will simply stop working.

If you believe that isn't going to happen, it's incumbent on you to provide some evidence for that belief. We get it. You're an anarchist. Well done, you. However, we don't live in an anarchist utopia, we live here and now and with things the way they are. You pretending you're better than other people because you don't want to engage with that reality doesn't actually change anything.

Why are you even discussing this if you reject the basic premise of the discussion? Other than to elevate my blood pressure, obviously.

[Funt Solo]

As Brexit trundles on, I find myself agreeing with folk I thought I'd never agree with, because they seem to sensibly see the disaster approaching and want to avert it (by staying in the EU, naturally).  Tony Blair, Michael Heseltine and now Lord Saatchi, who sensibly points out that the result of the referendum was "we're not sure, we can't decide".

I liken people who say "what's the worst that could happen" as being as dense as Internet game forum morons who say stuff like "why can't they fix the bug, it can't be that difficult".  What they're really saying is "It should be easy to adjust a complex system that took several months to create without anything unforeseen or untoward occurring: why it would as easy as pouring this milk onto my cornflakes."  Moron alert!

This is why "the people" shouldn't be deciding complex economic questions: they're not qualified.   (Which is why economics, and game development, are things that gets studied in depth as post-secondary topics, rather than something you cover in primary school.)

[The Legendary Shark]

I don't doubt that things "will stop working" in the event of Brexit. The question is, why?

My view - which has never changed - is that a handful of people will decide what is and is not going to stop working. I do not believe they have the right to do this. That is my argument. That is reality.

I do not pretend to be better or worse than anyone else. This is why I do not vote - as I have explained many times - because I do not have the right to force other people to live in the way I think they should. People who vote, on the other hand, believe they do have the right to force people to live how they see fit. They believe it's up to politicians to decide whether they can have insulin or not. As far as I'm concerned, I have no right to support a system that can deny people life based on politics.

We do not live in any kind of Utopia, anarchist or statist, and we never will. To expect any kind of Utopia is fantasy but we both strive towards it. Utopia is like Absolute Zero - a state that can never be achieved in reality - but that does not mean we shouldn't try. While you search for the Perfect Ruler, whom you will never find, I search for the Perfect Rule, which I will never find.

You and I have a long history of butting heads on this forum, Jim, but that's not because I dislike you, it's because I disagree with your ideas. If I come across as snotty and condescending then so be it but I'm attacking your arguments, not you.