The Political Thread

[Frank]

Nae worries, Tankie.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Most of the Irish were too busy fighting amongst themselves/starving/emigrating to do anything useful for the Empire. Unless you count all our criminals that now populate Auxtralia ;-P.

The only thing about the English that I find intolerable is the hysteria of their Sports Pundits. Now I know many of you don't really care for Football, but here's a challenge: Tune into the BBC/ITV during halftime and see if you can figure out which two countries are playing. You won't be able to because they only ever seem to talk about The English Football Team and their W.A.Gs.

It's OK to generalise, because this is a political discussion

[Mikey]

Ok, I'm breaking my own word, but I'm back.

I think part of the issue some people take is that quite often, Britain and England have been used to mean the same thing. That's maybe down to the rise of nationalist politics over the years and looong memories of real, imagined or romanticised slights by England.

Another thing I wanted to add was I think the Irish Diaspora in the context of the US (of mainly Irish Catholics,the Prods went earlier and into the wide open,rather than staying in the Eastern Seabord afair) was instrumental in forming the 'Irish Identity', and there's a link to how Ireland was administered at the time and mass emigration of those that could. I'm not throwing rocks here or meaning to agitate in any way,but it's a significant part of the history. My view is that it was hardly down to the English peasantry,the common people-it was the same type of people who are still fuckin us all over.

M   

[Frank]

The only thing about the English that I find intolerable is the hysteria of their Sports Pundits ... they only ever seem to talk about The English Football Team and their W.A.Gs.

Have you ever thought of contacting a Scottish tabloid newspaper or radio phone-in with this revelation? You're right about the bias of English pundits; not one mention of the Scotland team at any of the major football tournaments of the last fourteen years.

[Beaky Smoochies]

I wish there was some sort of award that we could nominate posters for. This one's a real prize-winner.

Thank yoop ...

I've just watched that programme where Arch Bishop Lang and the Old Gang conspire to oust King Edward VIII. There's a lot of people trying to hold onto history, disallowing history itself from happening, creating unnatural histories. I'd call it misguided but it should be a perfect excuse for calling it treason.
The King himself was a king that the 20th century needed. His trench warfare, his need for a fairer society and the respectful relationship (rather than the pandering Colony guilt one we've got) with America, all appeal to an imagined, better modernity. All twisted to being something gauche and naive by rhetoric clerics. What a shame Edward was too reasonable.

You've got to be kidding, George dude, that programme was typical C4 historical revisionism, Edward was ousted because him and his skank of a mistress were Nazi sympathisers and genuine national security threats, she was having an affair with von Ribbentraup, the Nazi ambassador to the U.K. and passing on state secrets, he was negotiating with Nazi personnel over the heads of the government in total violation of the British Constitution, that's why he was ousted.  And as for this whole thing about somehow being the "people's King", he hated the little people - not to mention Jews - and loathed having to appear at public events, that's not my opinion, but that of people who knew and worked with him at the time... watch the documentary Britain's Nazi King, sometimes shown on the Military Channel...

Roger's name has already been engraved on the trophy you have in mind. Beaky; advice on the successful division of an island from an NI man?

True, we haven't exactly got the best track record on the matter, and I've been highly critical of how my fellow Ulster Prods have behaved on this little island, although much of what they were concerned about proved to be absolutely correct... Home Rule really did turn out to be Rome rule, and the Irish have unfortunately made a dog's dinner of their little state, which I take no pleasure in saying, as I sincerely wish the whole Irish independence experiment had been a success rather than the abject failure it's turned out to be (I know I'll get flack for saying this, but the truth's the truth)...

[JayzusB.Christ]

Home Rule really did turn out to be Rome rule, and the Irish have unfortunately made a dog's dinner of their little state

True enough, sadly.  Nothing like celebrating the end of one form of foreign oppression by choosing another.  Despite being almost irreversibly a Catholic on paper, I despise the whole arrogant, bigoted, self-absorbed and near-psychopathic hierarchy, and am pleased to see the new generation sharing my opinion. I dearly hope Rome's toxic influence will be reduced to insignificance within the coming generations .

However: We have fucked up in many ways, no doubt about it, but as I said before I prefer to live in a country that has the opportunity to make its own fuck-ups rather than have another country's fuck-ups imposed on it by force.  I'm no hard-core nationalist, but I prefer to live in an independent country rather than a colony state. It's just a personal opinion.

My view is that it was hardly down to the English peasantry,the common people-it was the same type of people who are still fuckin us all over.

Couldn't agree more.  There's a particularly nasty strain of narrow-minded bigotry in Ireland that 'hates the English' as a whole, not realising that while the tiny ruling minority in England was pissing on our ordinary working people, it was also to a large extent pissing on its own.  My mother is English, and I got plenty of stick for that when I was growing up. She's from a poor Lancashire family who I don't believe ever had the opportunity to oppress other countries unless they were conscripted.  (Being Catholic, she also had the misfortune to be educated by celibate and sadistic sky-fairy worshippers.)

[Frank]

John Stewart on the Eurozone crash and attendant horrors. 

[TordelBack]

It's all down to Gerald of Wales. He wants his teeth kicked in, that one.

That bloody man.  A Rough Guide researcher that never left the airport bar, and was clearly overcharged while there.  Still, where would Pat Mills be without him.

Nationalism is on my list right after religion. 

[Mikey]

Amen citizen,amen.

See what I did there?

M

[Hoagy]

You've got to be kidding, George dude, that programme was typical C4 historical revisionism, Edward was ousted because him and his skank of a mistress were Nazi sympathisers and genuine national security threats, she was having an affair with von Ribbentraup, the Nazi ambassador to the U.K. and passing on state secrets, he was negotiating with Nazi personnel over the heads of the government in total violation of the British Constitution, that's why he was ousted.  And as for this whole thing about somehow being the "people's King", he hated the little people - not to mention Jews - and loathed having to appear at public events, that's not my opinion, but that of people who knew and worked with him at the time... watch the documentary Britain's Nazi King, sometimes shown on the Military Channel...

Really? I feel modestly uninformed. He seems very callous now.

[Third Estate Ned]

Given the debate of the last few pages, I thought this'd be an appropriate place to post this European time lapse map of the ever changing political borders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBK9yncmps8&feature=player_embedded#!

[Mudcrab]

Given the debate of the last few pages, I thought this'd be an appropriate place to post this European time lapse map of the ever changing political borders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBK9yncmps8&feature=player_embedded#!

Given the conversation it'll need updated soon too! Maybe 

That's pretty fascinating though. The utter mess in the middle of Europe with the fall of the Roman Empire, how young Germany actually was as a country before it exploded over the map and was swiftly pushed back and occupied. The comment is right, it's a strange way to look at it considering the amount of people that died in pretty horrible ways in the process of those borders changing.

So here's to "vaguely offensive if you choose to take it that way" comments/banter on a forum being the worst of it for us The land itself is going nowhere.

[Mikey]

That time lapse thing put me in mind of a very quick round of Total War: Medieval. Loved that game.

M.

[Beaky Smoochies]

True enough, sadly.  Nothing like celebrating the end of one form of foreign oppression by choosing another.  Despite being almost irreversibly a Catholic on paper, I despise the whole arrogant, bigoted, self-absorbed and near-psychopathic hierarchy, and am pleased to see the new generation sharing my opinion. I dearly hope Rome's toxic influence will be reduced to insignificance within the coming generations .
However: We have fucked up in many ways, no doubt about it, but as I said before I prefer to live in a country that has the opportunity to make its own fuck-ups rather than have another country's fuck-ups imposed on it by force.  I'm no hard-core nationalist, but I prefer to live in an independent country rather than a colony state. It's just a personal opinion.

I totally get and understand where you're coming from, Jay my friend, but do you not think the good people of Ireland would have been better served with near-total autonomy (national security, foreign relations, and matters of currency and Monarchy notwithstanding) within the United Kingdom, that way, they would had free rein to run themselves as they saw fit, with Westminster pretty much having an 'out of sight, out of mind' view, the Irish would be able to express their Gaelic/Hibernian/Catholic identity to their hearts content, plus Ireland would have had all the financial and economic benefits of the Union... to me, it would have been a win-win situation for the good people of the Emerald Isle, a much better situation than well over 700, 000 emigrated since partition, perpetual economic deprivation and poverty, and a heavy-handed Europe stealing your hard-won sovereignty from under your nose, just a thought though...

[JOE SOAP]

It's an interesting but a rather academic and retrospective ad hoc hypothesis that realistically wouldn't stand-up as an ideal solution and probably would've caused more trouble in the long run across both landmasses.

Unfortunately, as it turned out, whether by design or consequence a lot of those anachronistic nationalist and imperialist emotions ended up being mostly contained/impacted in Northern Ireland because of partition and eventually exploded on both sides of the fence.

It's an easy thing to look back and say what if but when it comes to how life actually was back then in a stillborn nation, who are any of us to say how it should've been?