The Political Thread

[ZenArcade]

It is not all doom and gloom. Scotland is an extremly resource rich nation: The obvious is oil; massive seams of extractable coal; bountiful agricultural land; wind and water resources; rich coastal fisheries and to cap it all an industrious, well educated population, with a low popuoation to land area. Unlike New Zealand it has links to the boggest market place in the world.
All of these are factors in it's favour, and if properly managed in the interests of the Scottish people the aggegrate spread of potential revenue streams will benefit the people in general; not the 5% currently hoovering up the dividends. Z

[Tiplodocus]

Anyay, since when was "It'll be hard!" a valid reason not  to do something? Yeah, we should only do easy stuff.

[Proudhuff]

Anyay, since when was "It'll be hard!" a valid reason not  to do something? Yeah, we should only do easy stuff.

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

[LARF]

As a Scot, I don't have a problem with the English. I just want the people in Scotland to run their own country and get the weapons of mass destruction out. I truly believe that we will be better neighbours with our English friends when we don't have the opportunity to blame Westminster for unpopular laws imposed on us.

Been sitting on the sidelines watching this, but after seeing the above quote and having a play around with this: http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ today I had to step in. Doesn't matter whether your nuclear arsenal is in Scotland or England, or Ireland or Wales - we are all doomed!

[Dog Deever]

hahaha!
'100mt Tsar Bomba'...


"casualties could not be estimated"

[Frank]

Doesn't matter whether your nuclear arsenal is in Scotland or England, or Ireland or Wales - we are all doomed!

You're never more than five feet away from a Scottish cliché:

[ZenArcade]

 

[Dudley]

Anyay, since when was "It'll be hard!" a valid reason not  to do something? Yeah, we should only do easy stuff.

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

Absolutely.  Problem is, as everyone who was enthusiastic about Barack Obama in 2008 can tell you, that feeling doesn't have staying power.  Great for the big one-off vote, but once the ugly reality of EU rule sets in (speaking as one who already lives in a small country which knows just how much more unsentimental the big EU countries are about smaller economies than the UK whenever things get tough), you're in for a fucking horrible hangover.

[ZenArcade]

The resemblences with Obama are indeed there but the situation is different in some respects: Scotlands choice is independence or not. They have the ability to take the means towards a better future entirely within their own hands. People in the states in 2008 were voting a new president into an already established system with obvious status quos in place (namely the vested interests: bankers, hedgefunds, mega-corporations and the military industrial complex). Obama in the best scenario: got bogged down by the sheer inertia engendered by these interests and a wholly antipathic Republican party or in the worst scenario: was already bought and paid for by these interests.
In regard to the EU are we all not already in the EU. I'm not it's biggest fan in terms of lack of accountability and adherence to money TTIP springs to mind. There have been some good things the most obvious being the prote tions in place for people who work etc.
But again Scotland if it votes yes can then have an informed debate on whom it wishes to be linked to and what governance it will have, that will be the key to it's future prosperity, and the decisions to be made will be theirs and theirs alone. Z

[Dog Deever]

Scotlands choice is independence or not. They have the ability to take the means towards a better future entirely within their own hands.

and

Scotland if it votes yes can then have an informed debate on whom it wishes to be linked to and what governance it will have, that will be the key to it's future prosperity, and the decisions to be made will be theirs and theirs alone. Z

Correctimundo.
Exactly why the current debate is NOT ABOUT the SNP or the LABOUR PARTY, regardless of what opinion you copy/paste on that subject. The party-politics discussion is a sideshow, which can't really take place until after the referendum (should the result be Yes) because the No campaign Parties have given no outline of what they would do should Scotland go independent- for blindingly obvious reasons- that would be so spectacularly stupid even THEY wouldn't do it.
It's not up to the SNP or the Greens or Solidarity or Scottish Socialist Party or any other party supporting the Yes campaign, or any of the activist groups such as or RIM or Yes LGBT, Yes NHS Workers, Farmers for Yes, to define what Labour/ Liberal/ Conservative policy might be.

I don't buy the Obama analogy- it's a flawed analogy in that it is nothing like what is going on. America was voting for a PARTY and a MANIFESTO represented by Obama. Scotland is not voting for ANY parties- neither Yes Scotland or Better Together are political parties.

Anyway- Yes, No, Not Voting... it's your vote, use it how you want.

[Dudley]

the decisions to be made will be theirs and theirs alone. Z

I keep seeing this statement made over and over again.  Yet as a country you're intending to immediately outsource your fiscal policies via currency union, drastically limiting your choices.  The likelihood is that the EU will force you into signing up to the same policies as other new member states - that will be the price of admission - and you'll thus have even less room for manoeuvre than you have at present.  Bearing in mind that almost 50% of your population are not onside for this change, and many of those remaining have no idea of the costs in rising unemployment rates and real austerity (far beyond the relatively minor austerity of the present Tory government) you'll have to bear, and I can't see any good result in the short term (say the next decade). 

Mind you, a No vote on a slim margin followed by a negotiated devo max is also going to be pretty bloody awful.

[ZenArcade]

Dudley, we're going over old ground here. This is about more than balancing an accounts ledger. I have listened to the no camps increasingly frenetic arguments over the past few days and frankly I'm finding them much more risable than the yes camps. The politicians arrogantly thought a no vote was a sure bet and pretty much never bothered their backsides doing anything more than the bare minimum in this campaign. It is only after the polls narrowed over the  past week or so that it has dawned on these....for the  want of a better word: 'clowns' that their careers and status in power are on the  line.
The negotiations in what ever form they take may not pan out as you think, Scotland isn't by any streach a dead duck with no bargining power and naivety in negotiation is not in my opinion a Scottish trait.
The mention of 50% not on board is just that old democratic thingy....we are foisted with minority governments in Westminister in perputity (avereging 40%of the electorate) we just have to live with that.
I hope I'm not being too strident here by the way. Z
Ps I'm from NI now there's a real political train wreck for you.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

You are all forgetting the most important thing!

How much will it cost to put Scottish embassies around the globe?

[Hawkmumbler]

DOOOOOMED! WE'RE AAAALLLL DOOOOOOMED!

[Dudley]

naivety in negotiation is not in my opinion a Scottish trait.

Judging from the way the Yes campaign have responded to bad news, naiveté has become a Scottish trait.  Spanish Foreign Minister and Prime Minister both make unequivocal statements that Scotland will take minimum five years to join the EU (meaning a closed border with rUK for five years, BTW) - Salmond says they'll change their minds.  All UK parties and a considerable majority (3/4) of polled rUK voters say currency union with rUK is out of the question - Sturgeon says they'll change their minds.  This is madness on stilts.