Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?

[JayzusB.Christ]

I don't think I'll ever stop liking Ted, The Office and Extras. I still listen to The Smiths and the Pistols, despite their lead singers' respective racist / Trumpian tendencies these days.

I saw Stewart Lee live a few years ago, doing a bit about Ricky Gervais and how he 'says the unsayable'.  He pointed out that whatever he says can't be, by definition, unsayable, then demonstrated an impression of Ricky Gervais really saying the unsayable, which consisted of 5 minutes of yelping and gasping half-formed, garbled words while doubled over a chair in mock agony.

[The Mind of Wolfie Smith]

thank everything for stewart lee.

[The Legendary Shark]

He certainly deserves the title as 41st Best Standup Ever.

[JayzusB.Christ]

He's a bleedin' nice fella, despite the curmudgeonly stage persona - my mate was flying over here specifically to see him, and spotted him in the airport.  My mate approached him, made him laugh and was given two free tickets.  I met him after the show in question and he couldn't have been friendlier.

Still feel a bit sorry for Russell Howard after the savaging he got during that gig though.

[Funt Solo]

I don't think I'll ever stop liking Ted, The Office and Extras. I still listen to The Smiths and the Pistols, despite their lead singers' respective racist / Trumpian tendencies these days.

That's where I am. Person might have some half-arsed opinions and still create fascinating art. I always feel that Linehan (for example, because I think this is quite a common occurrence) feels like he's in the right. Like - if you look at his motivations for saying what he says - it's coming from a place where he thinks he's being helpful. As opposed to, say, Trump - who is genuinely Machiavellian. Or Farage, who's clearly trying to aggrandize himself by beating a racist, xenophobic drum.

[The Mind of Wolfie Smith]

i don't think so. linehan's social media crusades have very often been couched in the terms of outright hate. he has created great fear for the victims of that hate, and actual danger and damage. crucially, he never ever stops.

[Jim_Campbell]

i don't think so. linehan's social media crusades have very often been couched in the terms of outright hate. he has created great fear for the victims of that hate, and actual danger and damage. crucially, he never ever stops.

Very much this. Linehan has lost his mind. He genuinely needs professional help but, in the meantime, he's doing genuine harm, legitimising hate towards a marginalised and abused group.

Whilst I might have some sympathy for whatever breakdown Linehan has gone through, he's a CIS white man with considerable wealth. The people he's encouraged hatred towards don't have that cushion.

[M.I.K.]

I read a blog quite a few years ago, (and also quite a while before the anti-trans thing became blatantly apparent), which detailed Linehan's inability to take even the mildest form of criticism from folk on Twitter, his refusal to accept he could possibly be wrong about anything, and his tendency to overreact with foul-mouthed tirades, name-calling and blocking of folk who'd done very, very little to justify such. I believe the blog was from around 2012.

I get the impression he's had severe issues for a very long time, the internet just made it more obvious, (and probably quite a bit worse when backed up by his more sycophantic/deranged/horrific twitter followers.)

[Funt Solo]

I've had people in my professional life whose gender identity is not the same as my gender assumption, and I've had to train myself to use the correct language for them. This is, of course, fine - it's both part of my job and also part of, y'know, not being a dick to people.

Now someone in my personal life is changing their gender identity from my gender assumption, and (of course) I'm going to do the same - use the correct language as best I can. I'm worried that I'll get it wrong, that other people in my personal life will be judgmental (both of my acceptance of the person's choice, and of the person's choice). Part of me wants to warn them of the danger of standing up above the parapet, because we live in a world where being shitty to each other has become so normal.

There's also that sense of alienation. It didn't feel like this was something that existed, for a large part of my life - although perhaps it's more honest to say it just was less accepted?

david bowie - changes

[Tjm86]

The way I see it, adopting the form of address someone requests costs nothing and is nothing more than common courtesy.  Doesn't really matter if it's gender, rank or qualification.  I'm also disinclined to judge anyone's views of themselves since my own is so f***ed up anyway so who the hell am I to judge.

It feels a little bit right now like there is an intersection of confected and real issues.  Women are concerned that efforts to address inequalities affecting them still have a long way to go and that transitioning individuals are creating new challenges.  Given the scale of misogyny, sexual assault and violence against women there is a significant proportion of women that are struggling with the presence of individuals who are only part way through transitioning in their 'spaces.'

Some of what makes it to the press though appears more inflammatory, stoking divisions further with lurid tales.  That is not to say that they are always untrue but certainly there is a lot of sensationalisation.  The issue of changing spaces, saunas and so on is probably top of the charts here.  The extent to which sexual predators claim to be transitioning to gain access to women only spaces for their own purposes is hard to guauge.  Arguably there have been incidents but whether it is as widespread as is inferred ...

Then again I wouldn't be surprised if the trans 'community' (yes I know, it's about a coherent a whole as we are here ...) was more than a little annoyed with some of the more extreme views being espoused.  Same as with any group really.  There's a lot of work to go in terms of acceptance in these cases and feeding the rabid elements of the British press is not really helping matters.  Then again, how much do such rags reflect reality?

[IndigoPrime]

As some gay people have noted, all the bullshit being directed at trans folks today is like a hideous rerun. “Trans women will assault proper women in bathrooms” is this generation’s “male gay teachers will assault all the children in their class”, which is unspeakably awful and hate-filled bullshit.

Statistics show that trans people are, per capita, now one of the most likely groups within society to be assaulted themselves, and have terrifying figures when it comes to suicide. And, yes, the British press and many British politicians aren’t helping things. The Tories are using it as another distraction and partly because they’re arseholes (Section 28 redux), although I’m not sure what’s going on with the SNP and the Greens having transphobes within their ranks.

[The Legendary Shark]

I'm worried that I'll get it wrong, that other people in my personal life will be judgmental (both of my acceptance of the person's choice, and of the person's choice). Part of me wants to warn them of the danger of standing up above the parapet, because we live in a world where being shitty to each other has become so normal.

Get what wrong? By making the odd linguistic slip or by wrongly accepting the person's choice? In my not-so-humble opinion, the odd linguistic slip is nothing to worry about so long as one is willing to self-correct, and accepting a person's choice (so long as it causes no loss, harm, or damage to others) cannot be wrong - difficult, perhaps, but not wrong. Furthermore, the judgement of others is also not worth worrying about. Simply listen to those judgements, consider them, and then accept or reject the individual elements of that judgement, altering your thinking or behaviour by as much or as little as you deem necessary. I think that by even considering the question of whether you're going to get it wrong you're less likely to do so.

As one who has stood above the parapet many times, and suffered for doing so, I would say that it's okay to warn them but far more important to stand with them if you possibly can. A problem shared is a problem halved, as the saying goes. As social animals with an instinctively tribal predisposition, we long for acceptance. To be accepted by a large group of people is definitely what most of us desire and to be accepted by nobody is probably a good definition of Hell on Earth. To be accepted by just one person can mean the world and be a source of great strength. Just because some (unelightened) people cowering behind the safety of the parapet are shitty, that doesn't mean we all have to be - and it seems to me that you won't be, that you will be one of those people who mean the world to this person.

There's a lot of work to go in terms of acceptance in these cases and feeding the rabid elements of the British press is not really helping matters.  Then again, how much do such rags reflect reality?

This is one of the main reasons I gave up on the msm years ago - it takes advantage of our tribal instincts to set us against one another for various selfish reasons. The msm does reflect reality, but in the same way a fairground Hall of Mirrors does, through warped looking glasses - and the image is always reversed. Every human being is a complex entity, perfect and flawed at the same time, and a creature of infinite worth and potential who cannot be summed up in simple nouns like trans, Tory, Russian, immigrant, or whatever the msm thinks will get us to join one faction or another. As the world grows smaller, the only tribe worth a damn is humanity and we must all strive to be a part of it, difficult though that is.

[Funt Solo]

Preface: I only thought to come back here because the most recent Regened thread just got co-opted by someone unable to keep their FART (Fairly Aggressive Rowling Tirade) tendencies in check.

Before anyone explains how shit she is - please, you don't need to, because I've already heard the arguments. (Aside: if, in order to understand your point, I have to sit through 2.5 hours of Internet naval-gazing, then - well, you're asking too much. Start with a five-minute summary. Seriously.)

Here's a puzzler - someone I know is non-binary, but also really enjoys the Harry Potter books. I'm hoping they can continue being happy with both those aspects of their life, without some foam-mouthed Herbert insisting that the author of the thing they enjoy isn't worth spit. Because here's the thing: it's a bit more complicated than that.

All this business about people being on a spectrum is very good - I like that. Gender spectrum. Mental health spectrum. All good. For some reason, though - it seems like people are quite quick to judge (especially celebrity-status) folk they're having a disagreement with as either all bad or all good. What happened to the complexity of a spectrum all of a sudden?

TERF belongs in the same bin as woke. It's just an attack-term that devolves any discussion into two sides of a fight. That's fine if you just want to fight. It's not much good for trying to reason with one another.

The way I see it, adopting the form of address someone requests costs nothing and is nothing more than common courtesy.  Doesn't really matter if it's gender, rank or qualification.

I'm not saying you're wrong. The thing is: remembering someone is Doctor McCoy, and not just Mr. McCoy - that's pretty easy, because it's not battling an existing, ingrained, verbal-reflex that's not even part of my conscious thought process.

Or, a guy called Kenny doesn't like to be called Ken. Easy. I might fuck up once or twice, but probably not. Kenny likes to be called Kenny. Doesn't care for Ken. No problem.

Someone who looks like a female, to all my senses, running on automatic (in the same way that I recognize a dog, or a tree, or a car, without even thinking about it) wants me to use different pronouns. Sure, I can make every effort to do as they ask, but it's battling an ingrained, innate sense that seems to a great extent beyond my conscious control. So, I find myself accidentally misgendering folk. I do all the right things after that - I correct myself, apologize if it seems appropriate given the social dynamic, and so on. I try to get it right. I really do.

But it's not as easy as Doctor McCoy and Kenny. My point is that it being "common courtesy" suggests that it's as easy as holding open a door for someone. It's not that easy. There's a battle of new language, new social expectations and new concepts - that are up against half a lifetime of social and linguistic pressure.

I tried to write a character once in some fiction, where I didn't want the reader to know their gender until a later reveal. So, I was avoiding he/she or his/her, and naturally thought to use they/them. But, sometimes that would bring up an obvious ambiguity with the idea of pluralism, so I'd have to think about restructuring the entire sentence. That's okay when you're writing a book - but it's a bit awkward if you're having a conversation.

Our language may evolve to cope with our new societal views on gender identity, but it's difficult to force language to do one's bidding.

[Tjm86]

TBH I'm with you on Rowling.  Personally I don't like the Harry Potter books largely because I find them fairly derivative, full of tropes lifted from other writers and somewhat bloated.  That's me though.  I would rather read the likes of LeGuin, King, Pratchett or Stross.

What is annoying is that this whole debate is obscuring some of the issues around equality that still massively affect women.  Harping on about trans women assaulting 'real' women (sorry for phrasing it that way, if someone would like to suggest a better phraseology I'm all ears) ignores the far greater threat of Violence Against Women and Girls posed by men. 

The statistics on that issue are truly terrifying.  The infamous Sarah Everard incident is just a tiny part of the problem.  The number of incidents that makes it to trial is small enough and dwarfed by cases that are abandoned as victims give up on the authorities.

Again though as IP points out, trans individuals are just as likely to face the same sort of treatment and attitudes from the police, if not worse.  So the debate and rhetoric do a fantastic job of dividing two groups that share much in common with regards to discrimination and inequality. 

[sintec]

Harping on about trans women assaulting 'real' women (sorry for phrasing it that way, if someone would like to suggest a better phraseology I'm all ears)...

cis is the opposite to trans - it's short for cisgender meaning the same gender that was assigned at birth. I think that's the adjective you want.