Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?

[Jim_Campbell]

Again though as IP points out, trans individuals are just as likely to face the same sort of treatment and attitudes from the police, if not worse.  So the debate and rhetoric do a fantastic job of dividing two groups that share much in common with regards to discrimination and inequality.

Keep in mind that the entire 'gender critical' movement is a construct of the American Christian right. They felt they'd 'lost' the battle on gay rights (particularly marriage equality) so they re-grouped and specifically picked out trans rights as a 'wedge' issue they could use to re-open the door for a whole bunch of their regressive policies. Make no mistake, if they 'win' on trans rights, they're coming for gay rights immediately afterwards.

(Although, the noises coming out of the US Supreme Court these days suggest that they can probably skip this entire step in the States, since an assault on women's rights is already well underway, and Thomas, at least, has his eye on allowing states to recriminalise sodomy.)

[Goosegash]

Before anyone explains how shit she is - please, you don't need to, because I've already heard the arguments. (Aside: if, in order to understand your point, I have to sit through 2.5 hours of Internet naval-gazing, then - well, you're asking too much. Start with a five-minute summary. Seriously.)

If that's criticism directed at me, I'd much rather it was directed at me rather than as an aside on an entirely different thread to the one I was posting on

I'm honestly not expecting people to watch all of those two lengthy videos I linked to but I was kind-of using them as short-hand to avoid turning that thread into a lengthy discussion of all the issues involved in what is a very complex subject. I'm fully aware if you know all this stuff already it's teaching your granny to suck eggs, but I'm thinking of those who aren't aware of the full extent of the insanity of the Gender Critical movement and can't understand why Rowling is suddenly Public Enemy No. 1 in a lot of left-leaning internet  spaces.

I do really think the infiltration of message boards by GC types is a genuine concern, obviously they're much less likely to find willing recruits in a place like this rather than, say, Mumsnet or another site where parents are likely to go looking for advice about trans issues, but it's still disturbing to see that kind of thing appearing here and it needs to be challenged.

[Funt Solo]

If that's criticism directed at me, I'd much rather it was directed at me rather than as an aside on an entirely different thread to the one I was posting on

I would have though my FART joke was worse - and that really was directed at you. The point about overlong naval-gazing videos being used as a sort of alt-Wall-of-Text I felt could be aimed in a more general manner, but you were the most recent culprit, yes. As for posting here: I thought it best to move the JKR argument somewhere else - not least because IP had specifically requested a move, and two people (you included) had already ignored his request. It didn't feel sensible to join in.

I do really think the infiltration of message boards by GC types is a genuine concern ... disturbing to see that kind of thing appearing here and it needs to be challenged.

You do realize that you were the trigger, right? Because, on the other thread, you said "really concerning to see start appearing out of nowhere on a forum like this". Your response there is problematic for me, because it's as if you really believe that The Corinthian (who, by the way, hasn't identified as part of the - watch out, it's another auto-argument-winning acronym - GC, it's just a label you chose to apply) made their point "out of nowhere". They didn't - they were responding to you.

It's a bit like...



That shot of the ornithopters in Dune reminded me of the classic helicopter scene from Apocalypse Now featuring music by Wagner. God, that pisses me off! Wagner was such a fucking Nazi!

Other boarder: Woah! That's a bit strong - certainly, he held some outdated views, but then his work and mythos were posthumously appropriated by the Nazi regime.

Look everyone! A Nazi sympathizer! Stone them!




*This post sponsored by Godwin's Law and Monty Python, in association with The Apocalypse Now Appreciation Lodge.

[Leigh S]

I confess I didnt see IPs sensible appeal to move the debate elsewhere Funt

I think your Wagner analogy isnt quite right though - it woould probably run something like "You think Wagner was a Nazi?  Then you suppot Stalins deathcamps???"

Corinthian's argument starts addressing the point, though it isnt one I can agree with - you  can find a lot information as to why it isnt unreasonable to conclude JK Rowling has a "Transphobes, stand back and stand by" dogwhistling history.

And concluding that, doesnt mean you stand with nutters who make death threats to children.  If you can only win an argument by telling people that f they hold a view they are responsible for the worst act that someone who might also share that view, then that works both ways in this debate - or rather it doesnt work in either way, because otherwise, Corinthian supports people who think Trans people should be exterminated. 

I didnt even go to the effort of posting the link to Contrapoints video, but may as well, because I think its actually a good way to avoid wall of text, and the video is a lot more convincing than I will ever be, though I understand some people arennt going to be convinced by either of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gDKbT_l2us

[Jim_Campbell]

I confess I didnt see IPs sensible appeal to move the debate elsewhere Funt

Before you posted right under it, several hours later?

[Leigh S]

Hence me not seeing it, Jim?  Not saying it wasnt there, just I responded to Corinthian without reading all the responses that followed it.  Am I missing something (other than IPs message)?

I confess I didnt see IPs sensible appeal to move the debate elsewhere Funt

Before you posted right under it, several hours later?

[Jim_Campbell]

Hence me not seeing it, Jim?  Not saying it wasnt there, just I responded to Corinthian without reading all the responses that followed it.  Am I missing something (other than IPs message)?

Not sure how you responded to the message in question without seeing IP's request, given the timestamps. Whatever.

[Leigh S]

I use the forum via a laptop - not sure if it is different on a phone or so, or maybe its my shitty eyesight, but mostly its I hit quote on your message as thats as far as I had read and IPs message was (presumably, I cant check as there is no video footage of the event) without scrolling down to see what else was there - basically to support what you were saying.

I didnt realise that the forum didnt allow you to post before you read every post - my laptop is clearly too old for that tech to have kicked in.  Unless you think I deliberately ignored IP, which to set the record straight here for anyone thinking I was shit stirring againt IPs wishes, I did not. 

To reiterate, I did not see it, otherwise, I would have waited for the conversation to move elsewhere.

Hence me not seeing it, Jim?  Not saying it wasnt there, just I responded to Corinthian without reading all the responses that followed it.  Am I missing something (other than IPs message)?

Not sure how you responded to the message in question without seeing IP's request, given the timestamps. Whatever.

[Funt Solo]

Sorry, Leigh. I should have taken more care to allow for that scenario. I often post on threads without having read all of the preceding points.

[Leigh S]

No apology necessary, Funt.  I just saw Corinthians post and my reading of it as "if you agree with X then you also support A,J and @" got me slightly incensed.  I got as far as Jim's reasoned response, wanted to echo what he was saying and throw a few thoughts on the prog itelf, so just hit quote on that without scrolling any further. 

While I think there is a lot of nuance that gets buried in the Trans debate, I can;t help but see the parallels with the struggle for Gay Rights echoed in a lot of the rhetoric of the (lets call it) Anti-Trans sde of the argument - a lot of demonising and assuming bad intentions - "they are after your children, public toilets arent safe" etc.

We've seen more than a fair share of political/moral positions shut down by arguing that if you support one thing you must be soething else as well - I was among a fairly large group of people who supported Corbyn, but wasnt an Antisemite - not thatyou would know, but there were a few of us.... I just dont think its helpful as a way to win arguments (Though Kier Starmer may beg to differ!)

Sorry, Leigh. I should have taken more care to allow for that scenario. I often post on threads without having read all of the preceding points.

[Funt Solo]

No, it's a good point - and I appreciate your adjustment to my Wagner analogy.

Having people be confused or befuddled by modern gender politics, I can entirely understand. I can even understand a frustration with feeling as if a special grouping is under threat by being expanded. But as soon as someone makes the "dangerous toilets" argument, they've lost me. It's that assumption of a worst-case that's problematic.

I would say that, in the case of JKR - I think she's become stuck in a mindset that says trans women are actually men - and she finds men threatening. Ergo: she feels threatened by the very idea of trans women - for her, it's like a "wolf in sheep's clothing". I do want to be able to understand her position as something other than just "oh, look - a nasty bigot" - because I need to be able to position her other principled stances on things like race, and thereby make sense of her as a whole person - and not just a newspaper headline.

Oh, and I do appreciate that ContraPoints video - it does a good job of illustrating the complexities at issue.

[Tiplodocus]

Top trolling from Bleeding Cool here...

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dc-cancels-heterosexual-robin-comic-after-17-issues-as-sales-fall-flat/

[judgeurko]

Don't forget the pen name JKR chose, Robert Galbraith. Maybe a coincidence but Robert Galbraith Heath was an American psychiatrist who conducted gay conversion experiments.

[Hawkmumbler]

Don't forget the pen name JKR chose, Robert Galbraith. Maybe a coincidence but Robert Galbraith Heath was an American psychiatrist who conducted gay conversion experiments.

Oh she knew, Rowling has always been a status quo pandering Blairite whose slipped gradually into embracing outright fascism.

Rogues gallery of some of JKRs fascy chums shes happy to keep about.

[Funt Solo]

Top trolling from Bleeding Cool here...

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dc-cancels-heterosexual-robin-comic-after-17-issues-as-sales-fall-flat/

Loving that.

---

Robert Galbraith has 15 letters, and JK Rowling has 9. Add those, and you get 24 - which forms a Ruth-Aaron pair with 25 (since the sums of distinct prime factors of each are equal). So, what Rowling is trying to tell us here is that she's the secret love-child of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Aaron Elvis Presley.

Of course.