Life is riddled with a procession of minor impediments

[Dandontdare]

once you've employed someone for more than a year, you must be able to show that you have taken all reasonable steps to resolve problems prior to undertaking major disciplinary actions or dismissals. 

I think that the fact they have been flexible up until now and have not disciplined him for previous lateness would count as 'reasonable steps'. I think that unless you can clearly show a direct breach of a specific written rule or agreement, no tribunal or grievance board is going to consider 'being on time' to be an unreasonable demand from an employer.

[The Legendary Shark]

...always pursue all the channels open to you as an employee, in a polite and reasonable manner.  We really aren't battery hens, for all that it is the fervent desire of many employers.

Hear, hear.

Four rules I try to stick to in arguments like this which may help are:

1: Be impeccable with your words and facts (research is King, brevity is Queen).
2: Don't take it personally (can be the hardest thing to do but vital if you're to keep yourself calm and even).
3: Don't make any assumptions.
4: Always do your best to resolve the issue in question (don't be distracted by side-issues).

[TordelBack]

I think that the fact they have been flexible up until now and have not disciplined him for previous lateness would count as 'reasonable steps'. I think that unless you can clearly show a direct breach of a specific written rule or agreement, no tribunal or grievance board is going to consider 'being on time' to be an unreasonable demand from an employer.

You're probably entirely correct in this, and while the manner in which things are done is still important, in the unlikely event you ever actually get to the labour courts (or jurisdictional equivalent), it's almost certainly trumped by a good paper-trail of following written protocol.  Even so, keeping good notes and following up all available procedures is equally important for the employee, as is making every effort to arrive on time.  Obviously if your job requires you to be there at a specific time and you can't do that, then no power on earth is going help you.

However, no-one, not even Commando Forces, can guarantee being on time every day for ever, and the aggregate pattern of time-keeping is important.  I've uttered the 'then leave earlier' line myself, and meant it too, but only where the pattern of lateness warranted it.  It was my experience that people who travelled a long way to work, and had complex external commitments, were usually the people whose time-keeping was most impeccable, except for those few occasions when unepected weather, accidents and other impediments screwed them over.  The free-and-easy types who lived just down the road were far more likely to show up 15 minutes late once a week looking a bit rough, and I suspect it's them I reserved most of my attention for.  There's no point screwing over a good employee for minor issues that are beyond their control, unless that's how you get your jollies or make yourself look good.

But then, as I said, the record plainly shows that I was Doing It Wrong.

[Trout]

It was my experience that people who travelled a long way to work, and had complex external commitments, were usually the people whose time-keeping was most impeccable...  The free-and-easy types who lived just down the road were far more likely to show up 15 minutes late once a week looking a bit rough.

This is exactly right. During the first of those bad winters we had, I spent hours - literally hours - struggling through snow to reach work on time and was amazed to be there before people who lived a short walk away. I even heard complaints like "They haven't gritted my street". For 10 days, my entire life outside work amounted to sleeping, shovelling snow and getting to work. I was living off a multipack of crisps on the passenger seat of my car. Sometimes people's sense of entitlement is astonishing.

Anyway: Noisy, you need to get up earlier. 

[Dandontdare]

Four rules I try to stick to in arguments like this which may help are:

1: Be impeccable with your words and facts (research is King, brevity is Queen).
2: Don't take it personally (can be the hardest thing to do but vital if you're to keep yourself calm and even).
3: Don't make any assumptions.
4: Always do your best to resolve the issue in question (don't be distracted by side-issues).

Excellent advice and good rules to live by. I'd add another - RECORD EVERYTHING - Even if it's impractical to do everything in writing, kep a log of conversations and discussions, plus copies of any letters or e-mails. If it ever does come to any kind of hearing, "But he said..."  carries little weight without backup.

And Tordelback -yes, you sound far too sensible and reasonable to be a boss! 

[The Legendary Shark]

Yep, RECORD EVERYTHING is excellent advice. I've got into the habit of recording all my conversations with officialdom and such on my phone.

[JPMaybe]

 Hope things work out for you Noisybast. Definitely only a minor impediment, but today the first thing I had to do was mop up a puddle of radioactive piss. And then again half an hour later because of the same poorly aiming gent.

[mogzilla]

i work for an nhs trust too and they are becoming more and more arsey about everything!  thank god i had cancer when i did or i'd be time owing them for the op,and every 3-4 hour hospital visit i had every month for after care ... if your staying a bit later to make up the time whats their problem?

[Proudhuff]

tHE PRICE OF NEW SPECS!!

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I was only late for work once and that was when the stupid southerners couldn't drive in the snow a couple of years ago. There are two routes into work, apart from driving along country lanes. One was closed by the police and the other was full of abandoned cars. It was like the retreat from Moscow up Bluebell Hill. I engaged second gear, in my piece of shit and made it into work.
I was one of the few who made it in on nights and was rewarded with a free meal and hot drinks. I then went out and did a delivery but I didn't have to. Going back home was easier, due to mostly being down hill but that has its own dangers.
So out of nearly 30 years of work I was late once and that was because of Southerners.

I prefer to set off 40 mins before my arrival time for a 20 minute journey, as it's my duty to be on time and not my employers.
I'm only saying this as I was mentioned.

I could talk about a bloke who works in my wifes place in the NHS, who is late every other day but nothing ever happened due to his mam being high up in the trust. He's gone now, so Caz is happy but he wasn't sacked, he moved on. Now he was a lazy twat!

[Dandontdare]

I've got into the habit of recording all my conversations with officialdom and such on my phone.

only legal if you tell them you're doing it.... just put on a fake-recorded message voice saying "all calls may be recorded for training and security purposes"

EDIT - just thought I'd double check that and turns out it's not true- From Ofcom:

Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?
Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, i.e. someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website where RIPA is posted.

Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?
No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.

I suppose a tribunal or any kind of official body would count as a third party though.

[TordelBack]

I'm only saying this as I was mentioned.

Only as a salutory example of the kind of man who is never late - except that one time. Your story is exactly what I'm talking about.  It happens, even to the very best of us.

Not arguing with your thesis there either, CF - I wrote a company 'best practice' manual thingie for out-of-office work that I was quite proud of (-deep sigh-), and the first point was "To do your job, first you have to be there".

[Dandontdare]

Just reading back, I realise that I may have come across as dismissive of Noisybast's situation, or siding with his bosses. I hope not, cos you are obviously being treated shitilly NB, and I wish that ordinary folk really did have the power to challenge shit like this. I was trying to be realistic and play devil's advocate, but I don't think it came across.

Up the workers! Hope it works out mate.

[SmallBlueThing]

To change the subject from noisy's shitty predicament- ive just finished a very long day, which consisted of 6.5 hours at my favourite job and 5 hours at my second favourite job... But then i left work, and attempted to walk up the steps home (cf knows these steps- he lovs them) and got halfway up only to realise id in fact accidentally walked up the wrong set of steps while speaking to my wife on the phone and had to go back and start again... Which a lot like completing two thirds of the maze of zagor and having to start over. And to make matters worse, as it's pitch black and ive been typibg this as i walk, ive just fallen over and then walked into a bush.

SBT

[Greg M.]

Which a lot like completing two thirds of the maze of zagor and having to start over. And to make matters worse, as it's pitch black and ive been typibg this as i walk, ive just fallen over and then walked into a bush.

Bizarrely, I was just reading something about the Maze of Zagor today. Ah, synchronicity. And much as I would like to offer sympathy for your bush/self interface scenario, the visual image it supplies is just too amusing to regret your accident. Sorry.