2000 AD Online Forum

Spoilers => Prog => Topic started by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 03:29:18 PM

Title: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
Oh.. oh dear. I really want the Regened thing to work. I'm invested in the idea but the horrible truth of the matter is the material just needs to be better. A lot better. I was a bit muh last time but this one worse I'm afraid.

Cadet Dredd - has some lovely call backs to the John Higgins story where Kraken takes his Route Combat Assessment (check please) and I want to pull out the issue thats in to see cos I think some of the panels are straight lifts. Which is a nice touch for old timers. BUT not the bloomin' point here. Read as it is its sub average filler Dredd with nothing to grip you and a nod to the Robot Wars. Just utterly lacks thrillpower I'm afraid.

Trouble is that might be the best thing here.

Finder and Keeper is flat and uninspiring. Why those rascal ghost kids... and that's it. At times I found the storytelling pretty weak too.

Anderson was actually okay. Middling fare but again nothing to really grab you and shake you awake. Again lacked thrillpower entirely.

Future Shock - well the premise was dodgy, but I let that ride wanting to like something by this stage... but the shock was not that shocking and it lacked.... well you got this by now haven't you.

Strontium Dog - oh look I'm sorry I don't want to just roll out the same whine so ya know just read everything above pretty much I'm afraid to say.

The stories, or most of them where even granted more pages than normal, but felt as if they didn't use them at all with waffer thin tales.

So, so disappointing. As I say I want this to work, but to make it work Joko-Jargo needs to sit down with Tharg, discuss Thrillpower and what provides it and well... to be brutal do better. That said three real bright spots.

One - its here, on time (well as realistically it could be on a bank holiday weekend during lockdown - whatever's left of that) so for all my grumbling

All Hail Joko-Jargo
All Hail The Phoenix

Two the cover is stunning

Three - that advert for next weeks Prog has got me excited - "Dredd! You'll never guess who's coming to Prog 2184' I wonder whose coming to town - I assume this is Dredd and not something unexpected in that Nakka strip... Intriguing.

But alas that's it. Its been a long, long, long time since I've been this disappointed in a Prog.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 26 May, 2020, 03:42:51 PM
Just got mine, but it's in COVID mail purgatory. A pity if it's not up to snuff. And, yeah, the quality levels really needs to be high if it's going to compete with the likes of The Phoenix.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 26 May, 2020, 05:39:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/SmvSR12.jpg)

Cliff Robinson and Dylan Teague
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Tjm86 on 27 May, 2020, 01:12:51 PM
I have to be honest, up until now I've been slightly more than a little ambivalent about the Regened Progs.  When we were told how many there were going to be this year I was slightly less than impressed.  So I have to be honest this latest effort has gone some way to change my view.

Robinson's cover is his usual sterling standard and the strips stand up well this time round.  Even Finder and Keeper which up 'til now hasn't really clicked for me kept me interested for the duration.  The Future Shock worked reasonably well, a nice little setup and denouement.  Nothing amazing but then again some of the early FS's could be quite unimpressive at times.

The headline strips, Dredd, Strontium Dog and Anderson were far stronger to be sure.  I would have to say that Carrol has definitely established proof of concept for a Young Alpha semi-regular series.  Dredd gives a nice nod to early continuity whilst Scott and Davidson take an interesting concept out for a spin.  A nice little chuckle as well with the "Baxendale's Academy for Young Delinquents."

So all in this has shifted me.  I'm interested in whether this is part of a longer, slower strategy to establish Regened as a more regular offering separate from the Prog.  Certainly it shows the potential for greater regularity and a chance to establish some of the characters whilst fleshing out newer ones.  I'm definitely far more optimistic about the next Regened prog now.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Judge Olde on 27 May, 2020, 01:15:43 PM
Regened is prog 2183


<Merged the two threads - Bolt-01>
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Judge Olde on 27 May, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
The cover & the advert for next week are about the best things about this. Dredd & Anderson were ok, nothing special. The rest really just seems inconsistent. Strontium Dog was poor. I don't like the idea of the take over of the prog. If they were just 'specials' I'd not bother to buy them. I'd be glad if this was the last of these.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: broodblik on 27 May, 2020, 01:46:48 PM
I do not want to burst your bubble, Judge Olde but there is still two more this year (prog 2196 and 2206)
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Bolt-01 on 27 May, 2020, 02:33:43 PM
I'm enjoying them - but wish they were 'more' (which is a ridiculous thing to say, I know) separate in terms of content.

The 'hook' for Anderson and the 'twist' for the FS - were very similar. The Cadet Dredd - nicely dovetailed into the the first robot war (though if the droids were harbouring their grudge for over 20 years then that shows just how patient machine scan be).

Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: TordelBack on 27 May, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
This was more of a mixed bag than last time. Well put together,  very pretty,  but uneven and repeating the weaker elements of its predecessors.

Aside from the terrific Cover,  the stand-out for me was (again)  Finder & Keeper.  This is a lovely strip, taking an interesting direction within its urban folklore theme, delivered through Tinto's bright and distinctive art. Unfortunately Reppion doesn't do much to define the main characters this time, unless there's a hint of revelation in Meera initially seeing the ghost without her goggles, and the trend of characters somehow not getting chemical burns continues. But I like this, it's quite a complete tale, it feels like there are lots more stories to tell, and I hope that happens.

Above all F&K feels like it knows what it's doing and that it belongs in this comic, as does the Anderson. Helped along by Davidson's excellent art this has the feel of Casefiles Vol 1 Dredd, with a fun DC Thomson school angle, a Nu-Whoish premise and a believably adult Anderson. The only thing that hampered my enjoyment was mentally screaming 'Leg shot!' at Anderson. Twice.  Don't set these things in MC-1 if you don't want juve perps to at least lose their kneecaps, all-ages or no. But this story was an interesting use of the concept that didn't rely on sticking "Young" in front of the title.

The Future Shock was okay, art a bit vague in places, and it went on a bit long - but the ending was good. This could have been where the comic developed a bit of satirical bite ('at least she's cheaper than the last lot',  or 'after all,  we've been picking unqualified gobby nobodies as PM for years') but it never did.  Still, it held my attention.

The Dredd and the Strontium Dog,  though,  I don't know what to tell you, except that we've seen both stories before, and done far better.

The art from Assirelli on the Dredd was really nice, (more please) but the story was so bland I had to read it twice on the assumption i'd missed a page. Dredd does well in a test,  another judge not so well,  Dredd blasts a robot and there's some heavyhanded foreshadowing of a robot uprising that's what, 20 years in the future. Sorry Tharg, but I think all the thrills leaked out of this one.

Then there's a Strontium Dog apparently starring Young Nolan Blake in an unconvincing story that just drags on, and some quite flat art that in its favour looks a bit like early Alex Ronald, which augurs well for Brokenshire, but is not helped by it being the first time I've ever seen the great John Charles deliver boring colours. I did like General Conda though,  he can stay.

There is just no point in putting these young versions of well-known characters into boring stories. Please stop it. What works in this prog are the strips that know they're all-ages and try to do fun things with that,  not just 'here's a younger version doing things you've seen before'.

All that said,  I got my money's worth (it's ridiculously cheap on the App) and I welcome more of these - they just need to do more of the good stuff, and ditch the bad stuff.  Simple!
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Ghost MacRoth on 27 May, 2020, 03:14:11 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 May, 2020, 02:39:33 PMDredd blasts a robot and there's some heavyhanded foreshadowing of a robot uprising that's what, 20 years in the future.

Plus the whole don't forget the CPU is in the chest thing.... 'don't forget cadet', ok not directed at Dredd, but he then will forget that when he fights CMK the first time.  A new tale undermining an established tale is kinda what I took from it, and not much else.

Otherwise I have to agree with the general sentiment thus far, some nice art with mostly 'meh' scripts.

Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 27 May, 2020, 05:54:12 PM
That cover is brilliant. I love the little three-eyed alien birds flying round the concussed alien's head!

Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Magnetica on 27 May, 2020, 07:27:07 PM
Oh dear....I really don't like being critical but...so we get 5 strips - I hesitate to call them stories as they all seem to be lacking in narrative. Stuff just happens for a few pages and then they end. Anderson seem fairly disjointed, jumping into completely different stuff happening at the end of the third page and then later on tied it back to the other stuff that had happened, relying on a massive coincidence to do so (that Anderson just happened to be the nearest Judge to Sandra Morgan at the exact moment she decided she needed their help).

Now I am all for Rebellion doing something to build up the readership; I am just not sure something of this quality is going to do it. All Ages doesn't have to mean totally without thrill power.

Even Ian Kennedy's star scan seems to be well below his usual impeccable standard.

Frankly I'm not looking forward to the full series of Full Tilt Boogie next week.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: broodblik on 27 May, 2020, 07:51:26 PM
I am quite disappointed in the regen prog maybe I expected more but nothing really stood out for me.  The art of Cadet Dredd was quite nice, and I am sure that Nicola Assirelli will be able to do a good  full-fledged Dredd story. The visuals in the Anderson story was godd as well especially the striking fifth page.

But still thank you mini-Tharg for another prog.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Leigh S on 27 May, 2020, 07:59:21 PM
I'll stand up for the Anderson and Stront strips, even if the latter does suffer the curse of Alpha's eyes gaining a power that is a bit like one he has dispalyed, but not quite shown in the same way - the mind control thing being a long lasting effect rather than just sowing temporary confusion - I mean, he can wpe minds with it when he was little, so maybe his power diminished as he went on... but I came here to praise it more than thwup it.  Same with the Anderson and to some degree the Dredd (though I agree with Tordelback's none story comments), they basically seem aimed at old grognards like myself, which I suppose is also a criticism... gah! Tharg can't win  - maybe he should just try changing the logo and seeing if the readers stick around irrespective of the content?
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Beaker on 27 May, 2020, 09:30:39 PM
Oh deep joy....it's a regened prog....oh goody gum drops...my cup runneth over...

I suppose I'd better read the sodding thing...
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: DrJomster on 28 May, 2020, 09:52:17 AM
Aren't these trying to attract new, and dare I say younger, readers? Given that, I thought this prog provided a strong selection of thrills to be honest, hitting a lot of the right notes.

For me, the regened prog is starting to really hit its stride. The big question for me is what's the next step in the master plan? I imagine this year's sales figures will be odd due to the pandemic, but hopefully all will be in the right direction.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
I liked the Strontium Dog story. However in future I want to see stories where JA is an adult, rather than as a child just because it's an all ages issue. (Children don't want to read stories about children anyway.)
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 10:43:20 AM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AMChildren don't want to read stories about children anyway.
They don't? I mean, they certainly don't always, but my kid tends towards strips that feature kids/tweens. Not fussed about adults at this stage.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 10:47:26 AM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
(Children don't want to read stories about children anyway.)

The briefest look at children's TV suggests this is utter bollocks.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 28 May, 2020, 11:14:22 AM
Quick thoughts: I unexpectedly very much enjoyed this.

I say "unexpectedly" because the time between issues of Regened means that most of the comment that is fresh in my mind is the dimwitted lunacy on the various 2000AD Facebook groups, where people who claim to be fans seem not to know what the Megazine is, seem surprised the prog is still going, dont like girls, dont like female creators, dont like any gay or black characters because diversity or something, and have agreed that the Regened progs are a disgrace that real fans (presumably people who dont buy the comic but once had dads who bought it for them) should absolutely reject.

With that nonsense being shoved at my eyeballs, I tend to forget I quite like them when they show up.

This was, for me, the best one so far- with the slight caveat that the last Finder & Keeper was a stronger story. That's not to say there was anything wrong with this episode, but if youd swopped them around, there would be a noticeable upward curve across the whole package.

A particular highlight for me was the Future Shock- having as it did enough anti-monarchy sentiment to stand out as startling in a comic "for kids".

But blimey- that image of Anderson and the mind bomb... I've been reading Scarred For Life: The 1970s, and most notably the chapters about comics (and in fact was in the middle of a digression about it in the Smash! thread before my phone crashed, in reply to Tordleback's comments about Tammy & Jinty) and much is made of the deeply frightening nature of certain panels and illustrations in kids comics of that decade. I'd say the image of Anderson here is of the same ilk. If a small person were to get hold of this issue, while little in Dredd or Stront would trouble their sleep, *that* drawing of Anderson may very well be one of *those pages* that gets skipped over and hidden- like Wolfie Smith being menaced by a huge demon thing was for me all those years ago.

Add to that the amusing criticism and end of the monarchy, "the bloodshed of Charles III's reign", and dead kid ghosts in F&K, and I'd say that far from being anodyne and safe, this "kids version of 2000AD" was at least as challenging as those early issues we all love so much.

So yes, great stuff. More please- with the same sensibility. 2000AD works best when it's slightly dangerous. This was a step in very much the right direction.

SBT
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: The Monarch on 28 May, 2020, 11:19:50 AM
okay so the cover for next week is on twitter atm and it err seems to have a different group of thrills than we were led to believe? :o
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: broodblik on 28 May, 2020, 11:43:36 AM
Quote from: The Monarch on 28 May, 2020, 11:19:50 AM
okay so the cover for next week is on twitter atm and it err seems to have a different group of thrills than we were led to believe? :o

Saw it and yes it is completely different. It is only The Order and Full Tilt Boogie (which starts in 2185) which was mentioned in the solicitation.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 28 May, 2020, 11:47:08 AM
Yes, most notably, where is Slaine?

SBT
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: broodblik on 28 May, 2020, 11:59:34 AM
For the people who want to be surprised I am spoiler tag the rest of the stories:

[spoiler]Sinister Dexter, which I believe is the mega-epic mentioned before. The Disaboliks, mentioned in the xmas prog. This is by Gordon Rennie and Dom Reardon.[/spoiler]


Yes pity about Slaine but some strong stuff starting next week. The new Dredd story sounds intriguing
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 10:47:26 AM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
(Children don't want to read stories about children anyway.)

The briefest look at children's TV suggests this is utter bollocks.

Children don't make TV shows, they just watch the children's TV shows that exist, because the alternative is not to watch at all.

Perhaps I came across as too dogmatic, because I just wrote one sentence instead of an essay, which doesn't leave any room for nuance. I don't mean that children hate stories about children. Just that they generally don't require stories to be about children, but are usually quite happy reading stories about adults. When 2000 AD started, it was aimed at the same age group as the Regened prog, but the stories then were not Cadet Dredd, or Teen MACH One or whatever. Yet somehow it lasted for 43 years, when other titles didn't.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 28 May, 2020, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 10:43:20 AM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AMChildren don't want to read stories about children anyway.
They don't? I mean, they certainly don't always, but my kid tends towards strips that feature kids/tweens. Not fussed about adults at this stage.

Oh God, I hated fiction starring children when I was young. Particularly anything where they ended up foiling a gang of crooks or solving a murder or something ('Well that' s just stupid,' I used to think.' Children don't solve crimes, the police do. ')
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 28 May, 2020, 12:43:46 PM
Interesting that the comics we loved- the prog, Star Lord, Battle (though arguably Charley Bourne was a child, which may have been the point), and again arguably all those Marvel reprints, all featured very adult characters, while girls comics- even the likes of Misty, Tammy and Spellbound, to mention those that cross over to our sphere of presumed interest- all very much featured children as the protagonists and largely adults as the villains. As well as, of course, the likes of the Beano, Buster and all the humour comics.

Can any conclusion to drawn one way or the other about whether kids prefer one type of storytelling?

SBT
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 12:46:46 PM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 10:47:26 AM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
(Children don't want to read stories about children anyway.)

The briefest look at children's TV suggests this is utter bollocks.

Children don't make TV shows, they just watch the children's TV shows that exist, because the alternative is not to watch at all.

Perhaps I came across as too dogmatic, because I just wrote one sentence instead of an essay, which doesn't leave any room for nuance. I don't mean that children hate stories about children. Just that they generally don't require stories to be about children, but are usually quite happy reading stories about adults. When 2000 AD started, it was aimed at the same age group as the Regened prog, but the stories then were not Cadet Dredd, or Teen MACH One or whatever. Yet somehow it lasted for 43 years, when other titles didn't.

Have you ever pitched an animated series for children's TV?  Because one of us in this conversation has. The people you'll be pitching to are armed with a whole mass of audience survey data and even child psychology consultancy info, and it all tells them one thing:  children want to experience stories featuring age-appropriate protagonists.

It doesn't matter what you or I were reading or watching 40 years ago. It's completely irrelevant. That's where the market and cultural mood is today.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 May, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Quote from: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 12:46:46 PM
Have you ever pitched an animated series for children's TV?

I can't believe "The Fun Time Adventures of Little Atalia Jaegir" didn't get picked up.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 01:39:21 PM
What GordonR said.

And to add to that, looking at everything through a prism of 1977 isn't terribly helpful, not least given that comics "for boys" back then were basically "be a strong white man", whether or not they were subversive in some way.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: broodblik on 28 May, 2020, 01:43:12 PM
You have to produce what the market wants and not want you as an individual wants. If it was up to me then no children but then again I loved Stranger Things.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 May, 2020, 01:52:31 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 01:39:21 PM
not least given that comics "for boys" back then were basically "be a strong white man"

A memo Mick McMahon hilariously missed. I occasionally wonder what the UK SF landscape would look like if IPC had run with Mick's mistaken notion that Dredd was black...
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: 73north on 28 May, 2020, 01:54:12 PM
Cadet Dredd - has some lovely call backs to the John Higgins story where Kraken takes his Route Combat Assessment (check please) and I want to pull out the issue thats in to see cos I think some of the panels are straight lifts. Which is a nice touch for old timers. BUT not the bloomin' point here. Read as it is its sub average filler Dredd with nothing to grip you and a nod to the Robot Wars. Just utterly lacks thrillpower I'm afraid.
Read the Regened Prog on Tuesday
I have to say , was not that impressed - only 2 stories were okay - the rest pretty poor
the worst was Strontium Dog - my lord , Alpha runs through solid walls supposedly in the strip
and then with closed doors , that he suddenly enters with ease  - poor .

Finder and Keeper _ was the best story for me , good art as well .

Anderson was just so-so .

Future Shock - was okay - not that bad .

Strontium Dog - I really felt this was a missed opportunity - very weak story and it felt like a re-hash of old episodes - I mean I bang on about wanting it back , well sadly this was not the way to do it .
I think it proves John Wagner should be the writer if it comes back ,and if not , it stays unwritten
from now on .
I also feel that Dogbreath has far better writing compared to this - that's how bad this was .

I felt let down this week .
am I being too harsh - I don't think so .
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: 73north on 28 May, 2020, 01:57:04 PM
" Cadet Dredd - has some lovely call backs to the John Higgins story where Kraken takes his Route Combat Assessment (check please) and I want to pull out the issue thats in to see cos I think some of the panels are straight lifts. Which is a nice touch for old timers. BUT not the bloomin' point here. Read as it is its sub average filler Dredd with nothing to grip you and a nod to the Robot Wars. Just utterly lacks thrillpower I'm afraid. "

should have been quoted - I can't do any better than what this guy wrote
- just to add I also feel this is spot on for the Dredd Episode - it was a weak episode .
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
Great discussion about what kids want.

I like to think that the stuff I devoured as a pre-teen starred adult protagonists -Biggles, Gimlet, Kiell Randor, Dan Dare, Deathwish, Ivanhoe, Luke Skywalker, Slippery Jim, Scott Saunders (he was an adult, right?), the Connecticut Yankee, Ishmail, Lt. Steve Martin of the Suicide Squad.  But the fact of it is, there's a huge amount that was child-centric - the Famous Five/Secret Seven/Oxbridge Eight, the Machine Gunners, the Narnia gang, Billy's Boots, Chocky, Will Stanton, Taran, the Bash Street Kids.

So I'm happy to go along with the idea that kids want to read about kids (although I'll suggest that those kids are always going to be a few years older than they are) - certainly the best thing so far (IMO) in the Regened brand is Finder & Keeper. My problem isn't (for example) using Young Dredd, it's doing nothing interesting with him beyond saying 'look, he' a cadet!'- surely there are issues specific to being a parentless clone bred to be fed through a 15 year long indoctrination programme alongside another superior version of you that would make a good framework for stories: even ones that foreground blasting things. You can bet Jaqueline Wilson would write a corker with this setup.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 03:24:21 PM
QuoteI'll suggest that those kids are always going to be a few years older than they are
I suspect it's more a range around the current age, perhaps tending towards 'same and older' as the child grows up. Here, mini-IP loves Sweeny Toddler in the new Cor!! specials, because he's really naughty and funny. She's a big fan of Betty in the Beano (who seems around the same age), but then also various charters across Phoenix/Beano who appear to be in the target range for the readership of those comics (something like 6–14).
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 03:39:22 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 01:39:21 PM
looking at everything through a prism of 1977 isn't terribly helpful
I wasn't trying to make the point that "everything was better in 1977" so much as trying to remind adults what it was they liked when they were kids themselves, using as an example a popular comic which has stood the test of time. There are of course some aspects of the 70s which I would not endorse, but we weren't talking about that.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 04:10:11 PM
I wasn't suggesting you were saying everything was better back then, but what makes for longevity now can't be applied to what worked then. 2000 AD survived for all kinds of reasons. Perhaps it having adult characters (in terms of age) was beneficial in it subsequently becoming a comic essentially only bought by adults. I suspect in the current marketplace, it would be a hell of a thing to try on today's child/YA audience.

That said, I do think there's a gap in the market for a different type of content. The Beano is very formulaic in its writing. The Phoenix is more anarchic, but very safe in terms of action. Something a little more raucous and rough — channeling the feel, if not the character demographic, of Action/Misty/early 2000 AD — might have some cut-through.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Leigh S on 28 May, 2020, 05:03:26 PM
It's interesting to look at marketing and focus groups - I think Harry Potter may have moved the window on what kids like towards liking what kids do to some degree?  That said, what cemented my love of Strontium Dog was starting reading when he was being an abused kid, so that's a bit telling.  Tordel's take on Dredd's own traumas sounds like very rich and kid enticing material - All these orphans/no parent types are big business!

I seem to  recall reading that when Doctor Who was prepping for return, the focus groups were damning about the idea of its return and the BBC really started to sweat it - turns out, sometimes people don;t know what they want until they get it.  And of course, unless you are a Super Forecaster Big Brain like our mate Dom, how can you know what will break the mould?  Until then, you only really have what can be gleaned from such groups to go on and the problem lies much deeper than simple analysis and number crunching might tell you. 

To quote myself in the Space Spinner episode wot I was on, sometimes there is a big hit and it's hard to learn the right lessons - Most people didnt like those 80s Alan Moore strips primarily because they were adult, they liked them because they were good.

So for me, the main thing to be is to be good - In that regard this Special is about standard for current 2K - some good, some OK, some not my thing with an occasional but thankfully rare  "what were they thinking?"





Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Leigh S on 28 May, 2020, 05:04:15 PM
11 in Stranger Things is a good modern parallel to Dredd, no?
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 05:14:55 PM
Yeah, good point!  I think the ideal trick to pull off here (and here I am very much hurling on the ditch) would be to give us a story that both prognards and kids would find interesting - and that I think that means digging into what makes Dredd Dredd. A lonely, driven Joe, both 'naturally' talented and hard-working but with that sort of 11/Data/ River thing going on - the legacy of growing up in a lab: a teacher's pet that has a lot to learn from weaker but more worldly classmates, while dealing with his potentially bullying big brother. It could be fascinating to see why this is the Fargo clone that made it - and yet somehow keep short stories action-filled and self-contained.  Maybe this means longer individual episodes?   
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Leigh S on 28 May, 2020, 05:30:22 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 05:14:55 PM
prognards

Tordelback wins the Internet - your prize is writing Young Dredd.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 06:18:47 PM
I love Tordelback's idea. That has legs.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Leigh S on 28 May, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
It's interesting to note that both of Wagner's top creations for 2000AD have daddy issues - Johnny always trying to undo the legacy of his father, while Dredd is trying to live up to it...that was hat was so amazing about the end of Origins and sadly not really picked up.. Fargo giving Dredd a new slant on what he was born for.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 May, 2020, 03:09:36 AM
2000 AD Regened

This is the fourth Regened issue after the 2018 FCBD, then progs 2130 and 2170: but this is the first one I've read. I'm 100% behind the concept because it seems to be trying to appeal to a new generation (of readers and creatives) - and despite my bone-deep detestation of both Scrappy Doo and Jar Jar Binks, I'm wise enough to realize that my lack of enjoyment doesn't amount to a hill of beans if someone else is enjoying it.

I've noticed a lot of online poo-pooing of this prog (in the wider Net) even before it was published and I can only wonder about what a gang of grumpy old codgers blathering on about the golden age must look like to anyone coming in fresh. Dem yout, man.

The cover from Robinson is a corker, with some of the alien's eyes worried about the bump whilst others glare accusatively at mini-Dredd.


The thrills, in order of most to least ghafflebette...


Anderson Psi Division: First-Class Citizen
S: Cavan Scott, A: Paul Davidson, C: Len O'Grady, L: Simon Bowland

Having read Cadet Dredd first I was assuming we'd get Young Anderson, but then she's often portrayed as eternally youthful, so I don't suppose it matters when this is set, but rather what she's doing. The look is interesting, as well, because this could easily be 2012 movie Anderson with the haircut.

I loved the art on this one: it's got the most visual pop, getting to have its splash page and eat its panel layout all at the same time. The escalation of insanity keeps this moving along at a pace. I wonder about Joni Reeves becoming a strong recurring character - which could work because this is a fluffier, bouncier Mega-City One than I'm used to (which has Dredd leg-shotting perps who feck around on hover boards).

(https://i.imgur.com/CFjlaqS.png)


Cadet Dredd: Combat Ready
S: Matt Smith, A: Nicolo Assirelli, C: Chris Blythe, L: Annie Parkhouse

For the old hands, this has the Disney/Lucasfilm callbacks to our nerd landscape by visually referencing the Routine Combat Assessment from prog 650's The Shooting Match, and riffing on Robot Wars. But we should always remember this famous maxim of art that hath been repeated oft down through the long ages: "Shoe-horning our favorite droids into the prequels trilogy was cheaply pandering to the gallery whilst ignoring the needs of logical continuity."

It's quite difficult to tell Dredd and Falkirk apart at times, and I suppose Falkirk is there as a mirror held up against Dredd's excellence. There are great action sequences - and I love the return of the Cyclops laser (that seems to have been written out of modern Dredd).

(https://i.imgur.com/aQaq7Q9.png)


Finder & Keeper: Nuisance Neighbours
S: John Reppion, A: Davide Tinto, C: Jim Boswell, L: Simon Bowland

Some lovely art on this: with the opening panels deftly introducing the characters and their backstory. I suppose I found the story a little twee, but then I'm a cynical old git so can safely be ignored when it comes to Cockney orphans in baggy trousers eliciting sympathy.

I really enjoyed the cereal-box faced poltergiest-bot with fried eggs for eyes.

(https://i.imgur.com/gBWhhh8.png)


Strontium Dog: Acceptable Losses
S: Michael Carroll, A: Nick Brokenshire, C: John Charles, L: Jim Campbell

I enjoyed the story here but was confused about Johnny's Jedi mind trick, which I don't recall being part of the character's manifest prior to this. That scene was a bit hard to tell: I had to go over it a couple of times to get that she was hypnotized but he wasn't.

Disappointing that the Thwup guns didn't make THWUP sound effects, like they did when they were first introduced during Portrait Of A Mutant. It's what makes them cool: they're onomatopoeic.

(https://i.imgur.com/8JLGMS8.png)


Future Shocks: The Queen of Mean
S: Laura Bailey, A: Andrea Mutti, C: Barbara Nosenzo, L: Annie Parkhouse

This one's got an interesting premise: hints of Black Mirror crossed with Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. My favorite line is "Get used to it, donkeys! Queen Tanya ain't going nowhere!"

It suffers a bit from the odd notion that the Queen could be just anyone, as really the monarchy survives only because there's enough will to allow it to continue. So, her lording it over the PM is an odd scene, and (beyond the strong opening premise) this has a bit of meandering middle. A muddle in the middle.

(https://i.imgur.com/jvwS0aV.png)
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Magnetica on 29 May, 2020, 10:38:03 AM
Yes I think Tordels has nailed it. By all means do cadet Dredd etc but make it interesting - not just a tale where random stuff just happens.

BTW I did my own (in no way statistically valid) market research today.
My ten year son said he definitely prefers protagonists who are children and my 8 year old daughter said it depends but she prefers princesses.

When I asked my son follow ups of "what about Luke Skywalker and Tony Stark?", the answers given where "yes but Luke was really still a child (19) in Star Wars & old Luke is boring, and Tony Stark is cool despite being old".

They also don't like stuff set in "high school" with all that "dating".

Apart from Harry Potter - but that is different. And presumably Spider-man.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Bad City Blue on 29 May, 2020, 10:39:14 AM
Dredd - really good art, and a great read until it just... stops. It doesn't finish, it stops.

Anderson - Best in Prog, a well written and illustrated tale, no criticism.

Future Shock - Not bad, if a ridiculous premise in EVERY SINGLE WAY. Okay if you can get over that.

Finders & Keepers - Surprised myself by enjoying this. Not sure anyone knows just what to do with them yet.

Stronty Pup - A bit meh, it just didn't feel right. Better stories in Dogbreath, so get your fix there.

Loved ALL the art in this. 7/10 and the best regened yet.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 29 May, 2020, 10:46:26 AM
That's a fantastic review Funt Solo!
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Bolt-01 on 29 May, 2020, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: 73north on 28 May, 2020, 01:54:12 PM
Strontium Dog - my lord , Alpha runs through solid walls supposedly in the strip
and then with closed doors , that he suddenly enters with ease  - poor .

two things here - one, many thanks for bigging up Dogbreath, much appreciated. Two - Should Mike/Nick have spent 2-3 panels of a 12 page strip showing us Alpha climbing a wall/shooting a hole in a gate and kicking a door down/ just opening it and slipping through? Granted, there are storytelling options that could get round that but the point is that this just happens and is not the focus of the strip.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: 73north on 30 May, 2020, 06:27:18 PM
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 29 May, 2020, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: 73north on 28 May, 2020, 01:54:12 PM
Strontium Dog - my lord , Alpha runs through solid walls supposedly in the strip
and then with closed doors , that he suddenly enters with ease  - poor .

two things here - one, many thanks for bigging up Dogbreath, much appreciated. Two - Should Mike/Nick have spent 2-3 panels of a 12 page strip showing us Alpha climbing a wall/shooting a hole in a gate and kicking a door down/ just opening it and slipping through? Granted, there are storytelling options that could get round that but the point is that this just happens and is not the focus of the strip.

Pleasure is all mine - but frankly Dogbreath is always sublime - nearly all the stories have ' heart ' and above all , are written with love for the character - and it tells with the story telling ( its very rare to have a poor story in Dogbreath ) which is enjoyable .

I accept your point , that having a panel showing the protagonist kicking in a door or blowing a hole through a wall - might be superfluous - and I am no Comic Writer I hasten to add - but to give an example -
Gordon Rennie in Jaegir - he does show you how people enter a building -

I just felt the strip was a bit lame and also agreed , that I never knew Johnnie could do a Jedi Mindtrick ??

kind regards
David
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: Richard on 30 May, 2020, 06:38:25 PM
Jonny Alpha's eyes have always been able to do whatever Wagner of Grant needed them to do in a story, so I'm not going to quibble over previously-unknown powers. I thought it was a perfectly good young Alpha story.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 02 June, 2020, 10:35:21 AM
Quote from: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 12:46:46 PM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: GordonR on 28 May, 2020, 10:47:26 AM
Quote from: Richard on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
(Children don't want to read stories about children anyway.)

The briefest look at children's TV suggests this is utter bollocks.

Children don't make TV shows, they just watch the children's TV shows that exist, because the alternative is not to watch at all.

Perhaps I came across as too dogmatic, because I just wrote one sentence instead of an essay, which doesn't leave any room for nuance. I don't mean that children hate stories about children. Just that they generally don't require stories to be about children, but are usually quite happy reading stories about adults. When 2000 AD started, it was aimed at the same age group as the Regened prog, but the stories then were not Cadet Dredd, or Teen MACH One or whatever. Yet somehow it lasted for 43 years, when other titles didn't.

Have you ever pitched an animated series for children's TV?  Because one of us in this conversation has. The people you'll be pitching to are armed with a whole mass of audience survey data and even child psychology consultancy info, and it all tells them one thing:  children want to experience stories featuring age-appropriate protagonists.

It doesn't matter what you or I were reading or watching 40 years ago. It's completely irrelevant. That's where the market and cultural mood is today.

Fair point - I was judging things by what I liked as a 12-year-old; which was grown men causing exit-wounds to explode out of Judda heads and Fomorian hearts to be ripped out through their mouths.

But I neither have kids nor a clue about what today's youngsters like. 
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: norton canes on 03 June, 2020, 12:14:31 PM
I'm hopelessly late to the party, as ever... probably not much I can say that I couldn't pick and mix from the excellent comments already on this thread

Jumping in at random - the Future Shock centered on a nice conceit that I could see extended over a multiple episode run, with a different monarch selected each week, each with a different personality to the last and each trying to modify the effect of their predecessors' behaviour and actions. It's a bit of a shame that as a one-off, it had to labour under the creaky twist. 

There appears to be an attempt to set up Regened timelines for Cadet Dredd and acolyte (?) Alpha. Unfortunately in the instance of Dredd, the set-up seems to have completely taken precedence over the need for a stand-alone plot - and three months is a long time to wait for the next instalment. Don't think I ever read Kraken's RCA in prog 650 but this reminded me of the Kevin O'Neill Dredd in the '77 Sci-Fi Special. Did the Robot rebellion really ferment for years? Was there ever an explanation for K-M-C's rampage in prog 10?

Anderson was great - yeah, the shift in plot is a bit jarring but of course it all ties together by the end. That terrifying psi-bomb illo on the fifth page is about enough to ensure the story nicks Top Thrill.

Finder & Keeper, however, represents the more anodyne side of the Regened progs. Yeah, it includes a couple of vaguely mature (by which I mean teen-age) moments but overall, it comes across pretty much like the sort of strip you'd find in a comic with plastic free gifts plastered on the cover. Come on Tharg, it's hardly the Fourhundredandninetynine Penny Nightmare. Who knows, perhaps things will take a darker turn.

I do love that among all the strips attempting to be thoroughly modern and relevant, there's a supremely old-school Star Scan of Rogue charging the lines, plugging away with his rifle like something out of Battle.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: norton canes on 03 June, 2020, 01:46:05 PM
('K-M-C'?! Got that all backwards)
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 June, 2020, 02:05:16 PM
I thought Finder & Keeper was rather sweet. I'm sure that'll irk a certain chunk of the existing readership, but it worked for me as a one-and-done. Anderson was really strong (and had actual peril) — that would have sat well in the existing Prog, for the most part. I was less taken by the rest this time around, in part because things seemed a bit inconsequential.
Title: Re: Prog 2183: Regened - Five knockout thrills!
Post by: staticgirl on 15 June, 2020, 12:54:31 PM
My local posties are having truble delivering anything at the moment due to staffing problems so I only recently got this prog and I haven't got the following proga at all skipping straight to the next one.

I like the Regened concept. I really hope it gets popular enough to spin off into a more regular offering (monthly?) and introduces more kids to sci-fi and the 2000AD stable. Having said that my favourite strip is Finder & Keeper by a country mile. Partly because the art is fantastic and partly because the characters are brand new and not just young versions of long established characters. It means it could go anywhere and any place. With Dredd and Alpha their lives are pretty much mapped out unless the writers decide to go off at a tangent and create a new universe. It does feel as if the writers of the established characters are more restricted. I guess you have to have Dredd, unless it was decided that Dredd had to be cloned anew.