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I'm going to start this thread, as I know more and more people will see this film, and will want to talk about it, without worrying as to whether something is a spoiler or not.


I'll start by listing the 3 scenes that I can remeber from the comic that weren't in the film- for those that haven't read it...

1) After Palpatine appoints Anakin to be his representative on the Jedi Council, there is a scene with Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and Padm?, basically it's the birth of the rebel alliance- and a scene which I'd imagine fans would have wanted to see. (Episode 2 of the comic adaptation)

2) I can't recall if this scene was in the film or not, it's minor, and not necessary, and there is another scene later, which resembles it (part 4 of the comic book).... After Palpetine tells Anakin the story about Darth Plagueis, Obi-Wan visits Padm? and talks to her about Anakin loving her- in the film (and comic) Anakin later refers to this, after his second flash/dream- when he senses Obi-wan had been in her appartment. (Episode 2 of the comic adaptation)

3) After Palpetine finds Vader's body on Mustafa, There is a scene with Yoda, where he talks to Qui-gon, they are talking about learning Eternal Life, (and basically resolves the Qui-gon death, and the ghosts of Obi, Yoda, and Anakin in the next 3 films). It ties up a thread, so I'm surprised it wasn't included, as it is mentioned by Yoda, in the film, when he talks to Obi-wan after they decide to spilt up the twins. After Yoda finishes talking to him, Bail Organa tells Yoda, that Obi-wan has made contact- which is in the film.(Episode 4 of the comic adaptation)

On the other thread, I mentioned that I expect these scenes to be included in a DVD, and whilst I still hope that they are, I have read on another site, that it is unlikely the Qui-gon scene will appear. Shame!

Anyone know of any film Easter Eggs?

I know there's a Millenium Falcon in the film, and saw it too.

I know that George Lucas appears with his two daughters in the film (but didn't see it)

There is some debate as to whether Padm? at some point shouts "Hayden" instead of "Anakin", as a homage to the Leia/Luke/Mark shout from the first trilogy. (didn't hear it)

Was Boba Fett in the film? What happened to Mon Mothma- anyone see her- or was she just in the cut scene?

Wasn't that impressed last night - and missed the Falcon.  However, as for easter eggs, it's a young Moff Tarkin on the bridge at the end.

And does it really take 20 years to build a Death Star?

Dan

I saw Grand Moff too-

I kind of assume that Mustapha was were they got the ore, to make the deathstar, but if it's a lava planet, I guess that can't quite be right.

The naffness of the Death Star taking 20 years to build was a bridge we crossed way back in AotC ("The Death Star plans ARE in the Main Computer"), so it didn't bother me as much as it might have, but I suppose it does underscore the sheer size of the undertaking.  The scene in Jedi where the Super Star Destroyer (itself 10km long or someat) slides into the second Death Star like a tiny needle emphsises the fact that this really IS an artificial moon, a completely different scale of construction to anything else in the GFFA and thus unassailable (by conventional means). Even getting that much metal into one place (secretly) beggars belief - I think of the Inhibitors' grand schemes in Reynolds "Redemption Ark" - never mind managing the compression of its own gravitional field etc etc.

One new RotS idea that I love is the notion that it is actually Qui-Gon's (my favourite Jedi of all, the only one who hasn't got his head up hs arse) understanding of the Living Force that makes the first Death Star vulnerable - by allowing Ben to survive death and become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine", Qui-Gon enables the destruction of the first Death Star - in a galaxy without Jedi, the Death Star is impregnable, in a galaxy where the Force can communicate and empower Luke through the avatar of a fallen Jedi, it's wide open .

Equally, the differences between Luke and Ani are painfully (if clumsily) drawn.  Both are lured towards the Dark Side by threats to their loved ones (Padme and Leia), one steps back, while the other falls.  And it is Luke's well-placed faith in his friends (in Han, really), despite the Emperor's taunts, that destroys the second Death Star.  It's only this that allows him to "let go", and refuse to kill Vader.  If he had really thought that he was the only hope of saving the galaxy, would he really have thrown that saber away?  Anakin, trusting no-one, is lost - Luke, trusting the real world of shifty smugglers and hairy co-pilots, is saved.  Cool or what.

20 years to make the first one, less than four to make the second one.  That's what happens when you use Irish labourers.

When Ben was training Luke in the ways of the force on board the Millenium Falcon (in episode 4) and Han Solo was calling it a load of old wank, how come Chewbacca didn't chip in with "Actually, Han, I once knew a Jedi master called Yoda, and he was hard as fucking nails.  For a muppet, I mean."?

What happened to R2's rockets after Episode 3?  Or that handy snake-like robot arm he could extend with a taser on the end?

Why was General Grevous a mincing coward, whereas previously, he was a Jedi-slaughtering nutter?

How come the gravity on the crashing ship at the start changed once it started to fall towards Coruscant?  Surely, because they were still in space and not subject to the planet's gravity yet, the artificial gravity would always pull things toward the bottom of the ship?

How come those hardened battle-droids were put out of commission by R2 setting a bit of oil on fire?

Wouldn't it have made more sense if those robot things that tore Obi-Wan's ship to bits blew up, instead of taking their time to disable systems on his ship one at a time?

Why was the Emperor so rubbish?

Because it's a load of unremitting cack.

"However, as for easter eggs, it's a young Moff Tarkin on the bridge at the end."

What's the point of that without Peter Cushing? Bloody savages...!

Is what Bear said about Jar-Jar "F**king" Binks true?
At the moment, thats just about the only reason for going to see it...

Jar-jar is nothing more than a background character in this new film.


I always thought Leia was older than Luke. Apparently not!

PB: because it's a film?

Sadly, the Jar-Jar thing was only in the Lego Star Wars game and not the movie itself.  I was rather hoping it would be in there, but sadly not.
On the plus side, he doesn't say a single word in the entire film.  He just mopes about at Amidala's funeral.

Jar Jar was the Rastaffarian geezer in the Phantom Menace, yeah?

What did/didn't happen to him, then?

Well, the makers of Lego Star Wars got my hopes up by having the Birth of a Nation background character decrapitated, but it sadly didn't happen in the movie proper.

Furthermore, given that they have robots, and the force and stuff - how come Padme didn't have a baby scan? (which would have revealed that she'd had twins). Also, how comes noone noticed her suddenly being up the duff anyone?

But I enjoyed it.

-pj

I haven't seen it. But Obi-wan being in Padm?'s appartment could be a good reason for Anakin to turn on him, thinking that the children might not be his.

PJ, I was also thinking 'Why hasn't anyone asked her about her bump?' until Obi Wan says 'He is the father isn't he' (or something like that) suggesting that the subject has already come up at some point we didn't see.

And I also thought it funny that with all that technology they didn't know she was having twins.

"And I also thought it funny that with all that technology they didn't know she was having twins."

Technology me arse!  What about the Force, what about the three most powerful Jedi of them all not noticing that there are two nearly full-term lives in there?

But who cares about that, who'll admit to feeling a tear coming on when we finally got to see Leia on that rather beautiful Alderaan balcony?

Who'll admit sneaking admiration for Lucas' son's acting turn as the doomed Padawan that tries to reach Bail?

Full of flaws, cringe-making in too many places, but Woot!  That was FUN!

Along with showing us the dead children, I thought the scene where Obi Wan stands watching Annakin/Vader all but burn to death, was pretty powerful stuff.

"...I thought the scene where Obi Wan stands watching Annakin/Vader all but burn to death, was pretty powerful stuff."

Actually, I could hardly believe that sequence was in the film... After tastefully barely showing us how Ben managed to trim those limbs, the slow-roasting of Anakin and subsequent no-anasthetic operation scene seemed a bit strong for what should be a kid's movie.  Top marks for both actors though, they FINALLY managed a bit of emoting.  

If I can bore everyone again with my renewed fanboy fervour, I loved the final and frankly unexpected distinction drawn between the Jedi and Sith -

Plagueis/Sidious learn to preserve/create *physical* life through the Force (I'm assuming that's how Palps both "conceives" Ani and later keeps his overdone-burger-self alive).  It's this holy grail of material immortality that drives Anakin, and Palps does deliver on his promise.

Meanwhile, Qui-Gon/Yoda learn how to preserve *spiritual* life.  "Luminous beings are we - not this crude matter", and later: "Master Yoda, you can't die!" - "Strong am I in the force, but that not that strong".  Tell it how it is, "my little green friend".  

I must tip my hat to Lucas for a surprisingly deep job of fannish ret-conning - it's not just the embarassing superficial chess-problem antics of "You go here, take him there, I go there, wipe his memory and we'll all meet up in 19 years time" - he actually seems to have tried to explain some of the core mysteries with direct reference to the previous work.  Yay!

I like that this sort of stuff is not explained ABC to the audience, but you have to work it out from listening to what people are saying.
Like the fact the Anankin was the choosen one, he did bring balance to the Force, just not in the way the Jedi Council had hoped.

Also, and I just figured this out this morning, Obi Wan lifting Vader's lightsaber from the ground after the fight. That's where he got it.

Of course, in the short term he brings Balance to the Force (two Jedi left, two Sith left), but more importantly Anakin DOES eventually destroy the Sith, by ensuring that the last Master and last Apprentice died together.  As Qui-Gon would say, "be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment".

I was wondering if this is partly what Yoda is unknowingly articulating when he tells Luke that the Dark Side isn't stronger than the Light, it's just "...quicker, easier, more seductive".  The Light will triumph, it is just going to a very slow,  very, very hard road to travel.

Unfortunately, I thought the Anakin roasting was funny because up until that point, I'd been half-keeping in my head the idea that Hayden Thingy was just Harry Enfield's Kevin the Teenager.  When he shouted 'I hate you' at Obi-Wan, I laughed a bit and ruined it for myself.  But up until that point, it was good.
Did anyone else think that the Padwan that ran out to Anakin in the Jedi temple was possibly the worst child actor ever seen?

"Did anyone else think that the Padwan that ran out to Anakin in the Jedi temple was possibly the worst child actor ever seen?"

Up to that point I'd been really immersed in the sequence, the horrible realisation of what had to be done if Annakin was going to see through his decision. Then the child spoke and I was briefly pulled out of the story into unkind thoughts about how it couldn't have been THAT difficult to get one decent performance for one line, even from a child, about how the child was there to show us we should appreciate Jake Lloyd, then that obviously the child was there to to show how Hayden's Annakin was betraying and destroying everything that was good in him as a child, and so the child had to act like Jake's Annakin.

Then I got back into the film.

Which I loved.

I'm just back from seeing it again, and dammit you're right, that child was a bad actor.

I've just seen it and it was f*cking awesome. The bit where Luke is handed over to Beru on Tatooine made my hair stand on end and that's no mean feat I can tell you! Lived up to all expectations and tied the saga up beutifully. I've got to say though that all the negatives that have been put forward by the boarders I can agree with and all the positives, but if you take it for what it is, a movie, it's awesome.

:: f*cking awesome

Fucking awful more like. Still, at least that's it (until Lucas once more revives the franchise). If he does, here's hoping he gets in a half-decent writer (who understands the concept of characterisation and consistency), a dialogue writer (who actually understands how to write, erm, dialogue) and a decent director.

One of the best parts of the whole experience was someone a few rows behind me exclaiming "The Emperor's forehead looks like an arse!"

Which, to be fair, it kind of did.

Some thoughts:

The execution of the Jedi on "order 66" was an excellent montage of assassination:  the sci-fi equivalent of the Christening sequence from The Godfather where the heads of the five families are taken out.

The reasons for Anakin's turn to the dark-side were good and mirror events in The Empire Strikes Back, whilst neatly explaining exactly why Yoda and ghost-of-Ben are so loath to let Luke fly off to cloud city.  

However, even though the reasons are good (his love for Padme clouds his judgement to the extent that , in fact, he causes her death, rather than stopping it from happening) it was not well executed in the movie.  It happened too quickly.  He went from good guy to swithering guy to murdering children guy all too quickly.

On the murdering of the children:  I think this could have worked if (somehow) the children had threatened him first, or been in his way (perhaps protecting something or someone).

Obi-Wan is a right bastard.  There's Anakin, 3 limbs removed and half-melted.  Does Obi-Wan put him out of his misery?  No, he just buggers off and leaves him to a slow painful death.  Very Jedi.  This could have been avoided by bringing third parties (stormtroopers?) into play that forced Obi-Wan to abandon the nearly-dead Anakin.

Padme dies because she's "lost the will to live".  Lazy scripting spoken by a robodoc that is obviously way more advanced than the ones in the original trilogy.

R2-D2 has lots of special powers that he no longer possesses (or chooses not to use for no good reason) in the original trilogy.  That's just stupid.

The Frankensteing "building Vader" scene is really well done (especially as a juxtaposition to the birth of the twins) but then ruined by the "freeing arms by ripping bolts out" moment, which was clunky and trite in comparison.  

His "noooooooo!" isn't as good or as believable or as emotionally involving as Luke's "noooooooo!" in The Empire Strikes Back, whilst obviously emulating it.

The Wookiee war was fun, but there was no need to involve Chewbacca.  This constant "look, here's someone from the original trilogy:  that'll keep the older fans happy" tactic does not work.  It's just cheap and annoying.

Having said that, we did get to see a stormtrooper in camo.  For some reason he was talking to one with a speeder-bike helmet.  Cool.  I love all the variations on stormtrooper designs.

At the end of the day, this new trilogy has been created by a Lucas that has none of the talent, imagination and drive of the Lucas that made the original trilogy.  With large pinches of salt, and the ingestion of some horse tranquilisers for Episode I, this trilogy can be enjoyed.

"His "noooooooo!" isn't as good or as believable or as emotionally involving as Luke's "noooooooo!" in The Empire Strikes Back, whilst obviously emulating it. "

I can't help thinking instaead of the nnnnoooooo!!!(notice the multiple n's there, a staple for any kind of comic lettering, otherwise you're just saying noo only longer-anyway, after asking after Padme and being told that he'd killed her we should have a lingering shot of Vader's mask (with obligitory cracking bit of music) as he contemplates his actions, followed by a "So be it." emulating the Emperor in ROTJ, sealing his fate and future as lost completely to the dark side.

That's just my opinion though...

But he wasn't lost completely was he?

I thought they should have stopped the Vader transformation, when his helmet was lowered onto his head.

hold on Emperor pizza face concieved ani? how did i miss that?!?

"hold on Emperor pizza face concieved ani? how did i miss that?!"

Matter of much never-to-be-resolved debate arising from the Opera Box conversaion, that.  The options are:

(1) Palpatine tries to con Ani into thinking he has "created" him thru persuading those pesky Midichlorians, using the teachings of his Master, Darth Plagueis (oh George, the names, the names..).

(2) Palpatine actually *DID* do this (my fave option!).

(3) Plagueis actually did it, and Palps is claiming the credit after offing him in his sleep...

The motivation is even more murky, but my bet is that Palps wanted to control the coming of the Chosen One, and thus direct the Prophecy to his own ends... I think it was a great fun idea, makes some sense of the Phantom Menace's hitherto bizarre Immaculate Comception/Midichlorians stylings, and was a great revelation that had me clutching Tordelgirl's arm overly tightly in the cinema.

But he never actually says he created him, does he?

I just didn't pick up that at all when I watched it.  I just pretend the whole "Immaculate Comception/Midichlorians" palava never happened (like Return to Verdus).

Makes me feel better.

But, after offing Mace, Palpatine states to Anakin that he doesn't know how to create/sustain life, only one person ever did (Plagueis), but together they will uncover the secret.

Yes indeedy, as someone else said, the ol' bait'n'switch in action!

 Whereas I like the idea of Palpatine being behind *everything*, there is also a certain machiavellian glee to be derived from Palpatine usurping a scheme which is actually his murdered Master's. Someone elsewhere suggested that this was *why* Palps murders Plagueis when he does - he knows that Plagueis will take the Chosen One as his new apprentice, thus spelling doom for Palps.  Equally, it may explain why Palps apparently doesn't know where Ani is until the Jedi find him - that info dies with Plagueis.  

Damn satisfying metaplot either way!

Or fans reading more plot into a straightforward (and not very original) story than there actually is.  I'm terrible for doing this myself, and I don't believe Lucas is bright enough to come up with the suggested plot arc.
Although it does make the prequel trilogy sound much better than it actually is.

Hayden Christianson seems to believe that frowning really, really hard makes him look angry.

It doesn't ...

It just pushes his eyes out of alignment so rather than looking mad, he looks demented.

Also, I spotted Jeremy Bulloch driving Bail Organa's spaceship.

Oh Prof, leave us with our delusions!  I am inclined to agree with you about Lucas, but the Prequels are a quite deliberate multi-media (money-spinning on many fronts) project - and reading more into them than is on the screen or in George's head is a large part of the fun.  I hesitated briefly back in '99, but then gave in completely and read everything I could get my hands on.  

I have on occasion felt that while the movies fail miserably as quality films, the army of hack creators struggling to provide bios for each background alien, rationalise the contradictory tech behind each vehicle and franctically spin the irreconcilable contradictions between previous novels/comics and each successsive film can create a quite interesting story that serves to flesh out the new trilogy into something palatable.  

I also have the sneaking susspicion that in Episode III we see th result of George consuting with his Expanded Universe staffers and lurking on Message Boards, so completeeky does it address fanboy concerns.  There's actually a scene in one of the Web documentaries where he asks his prop-master to explain which lightsaber has to be passed from Anakin to Obi-Wan to Luke, and then observes that he now has to work out a way of making that move - something that any fan worth his salt had already whiled away many happy hours speculating about.

Normally I can sit in a cinema and enjoy just about anything. I don't really apply any critical opinion until well after seeing the movie. I went to this movie (EpIII) knowing that the advance word on it was not so great, so given the normal run of events all I have to do to really enjoy the movie is set my expectations a wee bit lower. I was horrified to watch the film and actually be bored by it. I wasn't expecting much, and I'd switched off any part of my brain that might give a considered honest view of the quality of the movie, and still I was bored by it. God only knows what I'd have thought of it if I'd turned the knoggin' on.

Any big set-piece exciting battle bit just has too much going on on the screen for you to take it all in, and it just becomes frustrating. There are way too many lightsaber duels, which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't all look the same. Whirling blades, jump around a bit, can't work out what's going on or who is winning, whoops there goes a hand, lather, rinse, repeat. The original episodes spend a whole movie building up to a single ligthsaber duel, and are the better for it. Maybe a couple at the beginning and a couple at the end would have been enough, but every five minutes was too much. They lost their special-ness.

Naturally, the dialog was all over the shop, that just made me feel sorry for the actors, so it didn't bother me too much.

Also, did anyone see anything in this movie that they weren't expecting? Was there any element of the story or sequence of events that you couldn't have predicted before going into the cinema? I mean we all know what had to happen, but surely there could have been a slightly twistier route taken to this outcome.

Actually, thinking about it, it was a bit like Slaine's worst excesses recently, fancy imagery that's difficult to fathom, the same fight over and over again, and some shaky dialog (I do like Slaine really though!).

In conclusion, I think I would have enjoyed EpIII if I hadn't acted the eejit and watched Empire Strikes Back that very morning. Dumb, dumb, dumb!


 

Saw it last night. I thought it was great. No major gripes at all, really.

Alright, If I was to get really picky, I'd say that they should have CG'd Peter Cushing into the scene on the Star Destroyer, rather than going for a skinny bloke in a latex mask...

I almost choked on a bit of popcorn whilst watching the film, and that was the best bit.

The choreography in the Lightsaber fights is terrible, & consists of little more than the participants spinning around and doing that horribly fake looking jump for 10 minutes. Plus what was the point of that heat effect on all the dismembered limbs, just looked fake.

Hayden's acting was TRANSCENDENTALLY BAD. I realise that Ford, Hamill et al. weren't so hot themselves, but come on "You look so ... beautiful". I was laughing out loud at that bit.

The only decent bit was Yoda vs. the emperor, but even that was sullied by the omnipresent "It's just CGI" feeling that was generally present throughout.

General Grievous looked like a boss from a videogame.

The scene where the Jedi bird with the two head-tentacles got offed by clones was hilarious. Did you see her just flop to the floor?

Those Jedi brats were rubbish. I was half expecting the Artful Dodger to comfort his friend Oliver Twist. And I'm the only person who found Anakin brandishing a long shaft-like object in the presence of kids a tad suggestive and a bit "Jackson"?

I hate CGI.

I told my mates after The Phantom Manace that the Emperor was Anakins da. Oh how they mocked, oh how they laughed.

Lots of eating hats around the office these days.

Still open to debate, that one.  Put the hats back on the rack.

:: Darth Plagueis (oh George, the names, the names..

Just one of several moments where slightly pained "laughs" rippled through the largely stunned audience I watched the movie with (and not stunned in a good way either).

:: I realise that Ford, Hamill et al. weren't so hot themselves,

Not great actors, but they had charisma?something sorely lacking in the newer movies.

"Darth Vader" evoked alien menace, as (a kid) I didn't know what the hell a darth or a vader was.  (As it turns out, Vader is a small town with a population of 414.)  Why then, this maul-ing, in-sidious, plague-is ridden use of moniker simile?

Again, as a kid, watching The Empire Strikes Back, there was no laughter from the audience except at the points where the film-makers intended there to be laughter.  C-3PO exclaiming "look what happened to me" is one example.  But there was no laughter at Yoda, who (in fact) became quite menacing.

Watching the latest movie last week, one thing that struck me was that half the audience (the younger half of the audience) spent most of the movie laughing - at the Emperor's bottom-like forehead and everytime Yoda appeared on screen.  So there, they found it laughable.

Also, as a kid watching Star Wars in '78, I didn't once think "Gawrsh, those people playing Luke and Han can't act very well".  In fact, the first time I heard that Mark Hammil and Harrison Ford weren't considered very good actors in those roles was when I was in my 20s, several years after Return of the Jedi first hit the screens.  As far as I was concerned, they simply were Luke and Han.

If we just wait around for 20 years, we'll see if any people who are in their teens now will hold any great regard for this new trilogy.  I doubt it.

'd say that they should have CG'd Peter Cushing into the scene on the Star Destroyer,

I heard that was a cg cushing a very very bad cg cushing

"I heard that was a cg cushing..."

Nah, it was a bloke in makeup.





See?

That looks freakish, and I'm actually surprised I missed it in the film proper.
Considering it was set twenty years before A New Hope, shouldn't he have looked more like Cushing circa Frankenstein Must Be Destroyed, rather than Cushing circa Star Wars?

well what a good opening to the film so much so ill over look the poor parts as WHAT A FECKIN' COOL SPACE BATTLE
Jarr-Jarr WAS in ep. III but only quickly and also not being tortured painfully to death as i would of hoped (when anikin goes in to see Padme after the its your turn for glory talk fron obi Jarr-Jarr  is standing behind the chanceller and even sez "suce me" and not "isa been toturd helpsa me AGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!" but still cant have every thing

Oh

my

god...

Link: Jar Jar Origami

erm.. Vader, as in in-vader?

that makes all the other lame names make sense (and sadly makes Vader a bit lame too) ops :(

Ignorance was bliss.

yeah, i know. i actually worked that out 12 hours after reading your post. it suddenly hit me, i made me sad to know that all the names were lame

Mace Windu - Mace Window.  Bwah-ha-ha-ha!

Watched it last night and for the most part, enjoyed it I did (ho ho).

The opening sequence was fantastic, the loose ends were tied up reasonably satisfactorily and the acting was nowhere near as stilted as the last two films.

As already mentioned, Anakin seemed to turn a bit too easily for my liking.  One minute he's all about killing Palpatine- the next he's killing children on Palpatine's say-so.  It just didn't sit right with me, to be honest.  I think more time needed to pass, with Anakin getting progressively darker before turning.

The problem (as far as I can see it) is that the prequels have been all about Anakin becoming Darth Vader and for me, that process should really have begun in Episode II (and no- getting an attack of the mardies and butchering a bunch of Tusken Raiiders doesn't count).

Episodes I and II could have been condensed into one film and then the next two films could have dealt with Anakin turning and Palpatine taking power- possibly incorporating the storylines from the Clone Wars cartoon (which to my mind, was a lot more entertaining that either of the first two prequels).

Overall, I enjoyed it, but was faintly irritated during scenes when you wanted Anakin to behave in a certain way- such as not going to Palpatine's aid- but already knowing the outcome and that he's not going to do what you want him to.  It's a bit like when you watch a film you've seen before and you're willing one of the characters not to do something- even though you already know he does it.  Annoying.

On another note, I had to sit next to some sweaty bloke and I had fuck all leg room.  It was probably the most uncomfortable 2 1/2 hours of my life and I was pleased to reach the end credits for these reasons alone.

I'd watch it again- which is more than can be said for Episode I.

Oh, and I didn't have a problem with the time frame for building the Death Stars either.  I imagine it WOULD take twenty years to build one- especially if you had all the time in the world to do it.

The second one looked like it still had a couple more year's work to go on it- and who's to say that construction hadn't already begun before the first one was destroyed?

This Death star debate has got me thinking. Say Luke was 16 in Star Wars - that's 16 years to build the first death star.

At tops, ten years have elapsed between start of Star wars and Return of the Jedi. Ten years to build a space station that, as JEB points out, is not finished seems feasible.

And if there is some kind of official timeline that rains on this parade, I am not yet finished. Once you've built something, it is quicker to build it a second time, because you know how to do it. Just buy two wardrobes from IKEA and find out.  
You spend a lot of time dicking about with the first one and the second one goes up easy as pie (tip let your girlfriend have the first one).

And who is to say that there was not an almighty accident during the building of the first one that made them start from scratch? After all we have seen on two occasions that they are pretty volatile if it gets a photon torpedo in the wrong place.

and also whos to say you just need one death star? if theres four or five of the buggers floating around it going to be a lot easyer to keep order then just one. remeber its a big galaxy innit?

Randal: So they build another Death Star, right?
Dante: Yeah.
Randal: Now the first one they built was completed and fully operational before the Rebels destroyed it.
Dante: Luke blew it up. Give credit where it's due.
Randal:And the second one was still being built when they blew it up.
Dante: Compliments of Lando Calrissian.
Randal: Something just never sat right with me the second time they destroyed it. I could never put my finger on it-something just wasn't right.
Dante: And you figured it out?
Randal: Well, the thing is, the first Death Star was manned by the Imperial army-storm troopers, dignitaries- the only people onboard were Imperials.
Dante: Basically.
Randal: So when they blew it up, no prob. Evil is punished.
Dante: And the second time around...?
Randal: The second time around, it wasn't even finished yet. They were still under construction.
Dante: So?
Randal: A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers.
Dante: Not just Imperials, is what you're getting at.
Randal: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms.
Dante: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction?
Randal: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. (notices Dante's confusion) All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.
(The Blue-Collar Man (Thomas Burke) joins them.)
Blue-Collar Man: Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?
Randal: The ending of Return of the Jedi.
Dante: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.
Blue-Collar Man: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... (digs into pocket and produces business card) Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.
Randal: Like when?
Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.
Dante: Whose house was it?
Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.
Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?
Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.
Dante: Based on personal politics.
Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.
Randal: No way!
Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.

According to various sites thrown up by google there are 4 years between Hope and Jedi.  And 19 years between Sith and Hope.

Granted it's quicker to build a second, but still...

Dan

Result. Where's that from? Reads like Kevin Smith to me.

Bolt-01

but also whos to say how long the montage at the end of RotS covers its Vader and The Emperor building on thier success it could even be five or even more years later when the death star is being built (there would have to be a lot of rebuilding to do after the war any way) im sure its not just ten minuets anyway

Who's to know that they were not building two death stars with the second one in production half way through the build of the first?

Or - They could have put twice or thrice the manpower into building the second Death Star because they started losing the war and needed it up and running bloody quickly.

Regarding this whole "Emperor conceiving Anakin business": The Emperor never says that Darth Plagius was his master, he says that it's a Sith legend. So this Plagius chap could have lived a few thousand years ago. Plus, it could have been a lie told to Anakin just to get him thinking that maybe the dark side could give him more power than the light. And Palpypoo says that the information regarding creation of life/ressurection is lost, but together, tey could find it.

Just my two cents.

More importantly though, with C3P0 and R2D2 being given to captain Antilles at the end, how do you factor in the Droids cartoon series into the continuity? Eh?

:: Where's that from? Reads like Kevin Smith to me.

It's from Clerks.

Thanks Indigo.

Bolt-01

Has anyone seen the extras on the Phantom Menace dvd where George Lucas addresses Kevin Smith's criticisms of Jedi?  Seems to me that this might clear up the arguement.

I seem to've missed that, where abouts was it?

Dunno.

I dragged the wife along last sunday to see it and thought it was a vast improvement over the frankly awful ep 2 and dull ep 1, fits in nicely with the original i thought, specially liked the low tech 70's look of the blockade runner that they all meet up on near the end, just think 20 odd years later vader comes down the corridor snapping necks and ranting at his daughter.

One of the final scenes with uncle owen looking out over tatooine in lukes classic pose with the original music made it for me, really, really good.

Fab in fact.

However, whats this i read on a website somewhere that Lucas wants a bit of time off before possibly making another one? I thought he was just after making a 100 episode tv series, but (and for the life of me can't remember the site) according to rumour he'll make one more film, set hundreds of years before the original film, possibly only featuring yoda.

Anyone else heard this? Sounds good to me.
 

only featuring yoda

120 minutes of little cgi green alien, wandering about in a vaguely mystical way?  SOLD!

What I really don't get is how come ET's people voted for such an obvious bad 'un as Palpatine.

Because they're evil.
Seriously, have you never seen the directors cut of ET with the scene at the end where ET's back aboard the ship and the other ET says to him:
"General Zorklor, we intercepted your message and saved you from the planet of the hairy unwrinkled ones. What is thy bidding?"
to which the cute little alien replies:
"Target that filthy planetoid with the Deathoid Lazooka and put this plant in some water will you."
And then the world explodes.

The whole thing about the Death Star is easily explained away. If you can make nukes it doesn't stop you buildings machine guns does it. Different weapons for different things. They had a whole galaxy to control.

I finally saw it today (virtually empty cinema, loads of legroom, lovely and cool) and it was kind of what I was expecting. Looks good and links everything in together but generally nothing special. I agree that the films could have easily have been squashed together and made this a much better one.
I liked thr fact that really it's all Mace Windu's fault in the end :)

Was surprised to see how they showed Anakins near death, now if the whole film had been as 'real' as that it would have been much better.

the website is www.cinescape.com and its only a rumour, although said rumour has popped up on different websites and an intriguing piece of information reaches my ears/eyes that everyone at Lucasfilm had to sign a confidentiality agreement concerning future star wars FILMS, not tv series, when they worked on Sith.

HHmmmm, intriguing this is.

wasn't the second one smaller as well. i seem to remember it was

Go to bed, you!

Saw the film last Fri and I personally thought it was bucket-loads better than 1 & 2. McGregor did a great job in impersonating a young Alec Guiness.

While parts of the the movie were contrived and wooden, I thought the best bits were:

1.  The montage scene showing the execution of 'Order 66'.

2.  The space fight when Anakin and Obi are trying to get to Grevious' ship.

3.  The final show-down between Anakin and Obi while the metal spar sinks slowly into the lava. Now that did look good.

The worst bits were:

1.   'Nnnnoooooo!' How contrived was that?

2.   Hayden trying to look mean and moody, when all he appeared to be was constipated!

3.   Trite dialogue between Palpatine and Anakin.

Overall, worth going to see, but be prepared for rough patches. Still miles better than Menace or Clones!

Hmmm... all this timing of the death stars is fair enough but I always wondered about the time scale in Empire Strikes Back. I'm confused that after Hoth, Han, Leia and co. go on a little adventure (astroids, then on to Bespin) and it would appear to me that not a lot of time passes (one or two days tops.)

While that's going on, Luke manages to go to Degobah and ddo lots of jedi training and stuff which would suggest a much longer period of time would have to pass. I know Luke's strong in the force and all that but I always felt the timescale in Empire was a bit wonky.

Am I wrong?

Pete.

Aye, good point.  

I guess you have to assume that travel time from the asteroid field to Bespin is longer than it seems, plus you could factor in time spent on Bespin prior to Vader's little dinner party (where some time has obviously passed since C-3PO's disappearance) and then you could figure that they're getting tortured for a long time before Luke shows up.  Add it all up and you could stretch it upwards of a month.

Back to Dagobah, and you could consider that perhaps the training has not gone on all that long.  Yoda does point out that his training is incomplete:  whether that means by days, months or years isn't made clear.

[star trek mode]A gravometric anomoly, centred on Dagobah, causes time to pass slowly relative to the rest of the galaxy, whilst not effecting relative localised gravity.[/star trek mode]

Plus the Falcon's hyperdrive wasn't working.
They never got to use the hyperdrive leaving Hoth so you have to asssume the asteroid belt was within/close to the Hoth system so Cloud City/Bespin would be a completely different star system.

I'd guess Luke had the longer journey to Dagobah but he was travelling through hyperspace while the Falcon was travelling at sub-light speeds.

Which causes the slight problem that potentially it could've taken years, decades or longer for the Falcon to reach Bespin.
Unless someone gave them a tow...

Hmmm - the asteroid belt (or at least the Imperial fleet some time after the Millenium Falcon has clung to the hull of one of their Star Destroyers, which you have to assume is in the same system as the belt) is not in the Hoth system:

LEIA: What did you have in mind for your next move?

HAN: Well, if they follow standard Imperial procedure, they'll dump
their garbage before they go to light-speed, then we just float away.

LEIA: With the rest of the garbage. Then what?

HAN: Then we've got to find a safe port somewhere around here. Got any
ideas?

LEIA: No. Where are we?

HAN: The Anoat system.

LEIA: Anoat system. There's not much there.

HAN: No. Well, wait. This is interesting. Lando.

           He points to a computer mapscreen on the control panel.
        Leia slips out of her chair and moves next to the handsome
        pilot. Small light points representing several systems flash
        by on the computer screen.

LEIA: Lando system?

HAN: Lando's not a system, he's a man. Lando Calrissian. He's a card
player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.

LEIA: Thanks.

HAN: Bespin. It's pretty far, but I think we can make it.


In the scene prior to all this, Yoda has already risen the X-Wing from the swamp, and in the scene immediately afterwards he's balancing upside down, and he sees his friends in pain on Bespin, which Yoda points out is in the future.  Following that, we see the Falcon flying towards Bespin.

Given that, we have to assume that there's been a long sub-light chase all the way from Hoth to the asteroid field in another system:  which must have taken ages.

True, I'd completely forgotten about the reference to the Anoat system.

That means they travelled from Hoth to Anoat then to Cloud City in Bespin without hyperdrive.  Hope the holo-chess table was working ok.

So, when Leia says "I love you" and Han says "I know", it's actually because they've been going out for months.  Holo-chess only kept them going for so long.  I hate to think what Chewie and C-3PO got up to.

"Episodes I and II could have been condensed into one film and then the next two films could have dealt with Anakin turning and Palpatine taking power- possibly incorporating the storylines from the Clone Wars cartoon (which to my mind, was a lot more entertaining that either of the first two prequels). "

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will

Chewie & C3PO? No way.  You hear what was said in 'Sith' about Yoda having a special relationship with wookies?

He he he.

the second death star was bigger

If you think we're a bit mental...

some real nerds

I enjoyed this movie but Maddox review is spot on

Link: Maddox Review

Everything has come to pass as predicted.

Not the wealth of detail, which will keep fans watching for years to come.  I saw a lot, which had little to do with the story, but a lot to do with star wars, and missed even more I suspect.  

It was a mixture of the good and bad, dull and exciting, fun and ridiculous.  Part of me enjoyed it, part didn't.  But for me, as exciting or as good as it got, it rarely came across with any power or drama.  

There were no binary sunsets, there was no 'let's blow this place and go home kid', no 'use the force', no 'I know' or 'now you shall die' with Darth Vader making his impossible choice.

Finally I have seen it, and it is over.

Thank fuck.

Wow, Chewbaccas insertion into the story was spectacularly random. He just wants in on the toy line, the big whore.

'Order 66'. Is there any significance in this number? Or is just a shite name for a code?

I finally saw this last night and well....

...it rocks. It is THE best opening to any Star Wars Film, including New Hope, it's gritty. moving and apart from some bizarre wooden acting - the kid in the jedi Temple, 'Nooooooo' and a few McGregorism's. I love the way Lucas has intertwined Anakin losing his mother to the reason he goes to the dark side to try and protect Padme, and in doing so this is Padme's undoing - which leads me to question the dream of Padme, was this a deliberate plant by Palpatine? or was it a true view of the future, bearing in mind he would not have gone over to the darkside if he had not had the dream therefore that future should not have existed at the time....?

I thought I would just pop up on this thread and say "me too".

I finally got round to seeing the film last night. I haven't much to say that hasn't been said already. I think it was the best of the three, and it had some good bits and some bad bits. It started really well with that spectacular battle sequence and didn't really start to get rubbish until Anakin and Obi Wan returned with the rescued Chancellor. That resulted in some truly rubbish dialogue between the Chancellor and that Senator bloke, some wooden acting and some gratuitous standing around.

As Padme flew off to the lava planet I did turn to my partner and say "there surely can't be much more of this?"

Anyway, better than Phantom Menace or Attack of The Clones (Of course!). I actually came away from this one glad I'd seen it.