2000 AD Online Forum

A bold statement, I know, but something that's been on my mind lately, with Origins being soooooo good.

Here's the question: can you have a satisfying prog without a good Dredd story?

Can anyone point to a prog that was really, really thrilling overall, but had a poor Dredd?

I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise, but I'm of the opinion that the judge is the essential meat in the prog's sandwich. (Cue Wils...)

Without him, you only have bread and butter.
Now, bread and butter's fine, but wouldn't you rather have steak?

(I am, of course, talking about the era of established Dredd. It's commonly said the strip took a while to find its feet, and of course he wasn't in the first issue.)

Anyway, I'm hoping to start a big fight with this thread. It's been a while. ;-)

- Trout

Origins isn't that good. It's a re-telling of a tale already told. With the sole new bit being a nod towards Bush and a rigged election.

You know what's going to happen in the past and the sooner it gets to the present day, the better. Provided something then happens. My fear is that the present day plot line will be wrapped up in a few episodes.

So, having said all that, you are wrong Mr Fish.

What the prog needs is one good story - something to grab your attention and make you want to know what will happen next. It doesn't have to be Dredd.

In fact, for me it was the last run of SinDex. I was disappointed that it wasn't in this week's prog. Now it's Dante. Dredd is just meh. I am looking forward to the next epidsode of Kingdom or Sticklebakc over another slice of established history.

I'm not sure if that's enough fuel to the fire to start a fight, or if this is a sensible post. If not, then bear this in mind:

The next person to post smells of pee.

I'm of the opinion that the judge is the essential meat in the prog's sandwich. (Cue Wils...)

I totally agree. What makes it even better is the fact that Dredd was never intended to be the star of 2000ad in the first place, but ended up just eclipsing eveything else in the prog (at times completely), not necessarily from his first appearance, but certainly since the Robot Wars, where the sheer quality of Wagner's writing first shone like a very shiny thing to young Squaxx and Dredd's character traits were first properly consolidated.





What? ;)

The next person to post smells of pee.

DAMN!

Bwah - ha - HAH!

Right. You asked for this...

Dredd is the strip that now represents what 2000AD is most about; rocking good stories packed with mad ideas, black humour, biting satire and women in tight leather jum suits (big guns optional).

So if Dredd went, but those ingredients remained in other stories, I think we'd be OK.


Oh and I'm at the stage now where I don't know what would make me give up 2000AD.  Even if it turned completely mince (cf early nineties), I think I'd keep on until the end of the road just for the hell of it.  

I wouldn't go as far to say it would be nothing without him but when Dredd is good, it's bloody good and the rest of the prog does kind of bask in reflected glory at times.

I couldn't imagine tooth without Dredd-but how many of us buy it just to read Dredd?

"those ingredients remained in other stories, I think we'd be OK." I agree.

And also-although i've never seen a woman in a 'jum suit' I'd likley pay fine English pounds to see one.Sounds like...bum.

M.

Oh jesus, look what you've gone and unleashed!

Dredd has always been my favorite thing in the prog and always been the first thing I've read. Mainly because it's usually the first thing in the prog but I'd read it first even if it wasn't.

Dredd's world is so vivid and so detailed that I recon Mega City 1 is one of the great sci-fi constructions. There's so much you can do with a Dredd story, you can go from the bizarre to the horrific, the epic to the intimate and the humurous to the grim and gritty in the space of a few pages. All this whilst guided by the monolith figure of Dredd, a creation that should be a cypher but that has more vitality than most characters.

So yeah, Dredd is pretty essential to my enjoyment of the prog.

And Wils smells of three week old smeg scratchings.

While Dredd is not completely essential to the Prog, and there have been several other stories I have skipped to first in my weekly reading, he is the only character that we could have this conversation about.

That seems to me a good indicator of his position in the comic.

Without Dredd 2000AD wouldn't be nothing it would just be simply less entertaining.I personally think though, that origins is probarbly one of the best if not the best story that i've read, though i have only been reading for a year.

OK off the top of my head, crap Dredd Cover, crap Dredd story but otherwise a great Prog:

2000AD PROG 658
COVER DATE: 23rd December 1989
Price: 40 pence Earth money
Cover: Judge Dredd by Richard Dolan

FUTUREGRAPH
Ace Trucking by Massimo Belardinelli


Judge Dredd
Little Spuggy's Xmas
Script: John Wagner
Artist: Jim Baikie

Chopper
Song of the Surfer
Script: John Wagner
Artist: Colin MacNeil

The Dead Man
Script: John Wagner
Artist: John Ridgway

Zenith
Phase 3: War in Heaven
Script: Grant Morrison
Artist: Steve Yeowell

Judge Anderson
The Random Man
Script: Alan Grant
Artist: Carlos Ezquerra

Link: Prog 658

Yeah but the only character not from the Dreddverse in the prog is Zenith.

That's probably down to the character not being legally free to too.


Do some more digging man.

>Do some more digging man.

OK

2000AD PROG 298
COVER DATE: 8th January 1983
Price: 18 pence Earth money

Cover: Judge Dredd by John Cooper

Judge Dredd
The Last Invader
Script: John Wagner/Alan Grant
Artist: John Cooper

Robo-Hunter
Play it again, Sam
Script: John Wagner/Alan Grant
Artist: Ian Gibson

Rogue Trooper
Fort Neuro 19 episodes
Script: Gerry Finley-Day
Artist: Cam Kennedy

Harry Twenty
Harry 20 on the High Rock
Script: Gerry Finley-Day
Artist: Alan Davis

Time Twisters
Family Trees
Script: Alan Hebden
Artist: John Higgins

Link: Prog 298

Whilst there are examples of progs where the Dredd effort is well below par compared to the other thrills on offer, they're few and far between and difficult to find.

Mind you, Slaughterbowl kept me reading through the Summer Offensive.

Without it's anthology format, 2000AD is nothing.

From the perspective of person who's only discovered 2000AD in the mid eighties. I will presume that Judge Dredd is the centre-piece. Rogue Trooper, Nemesis the Warlock, Slaine and Johhny Aplha would then all be standing next in line. Then there is Halo Jones, Dr &  Quinch, Space Truckkers, Robo-Hunter. Then there were the newer characters.

A person who's seen 2000AD from the beginning might place Dan Dare, Star-lord, Harry High Twenty,  Stainless Steel Rat and  The Mean Team in the same heirachy that I have placed the others I mentioned above.

That is the way I remember them, anyway. Though,  I should really be saying the same thing about Tharg, who really is 2000AD.

As far as the the quality of the Judge Dredd strips. I think they were very simple at first as I had been reading the Judge Dredd case files number one and from there they do gradually get better. They sort of mature, though the more recent Dredds are bit too serious. More lacking in that droll humour that I had always associated with the character when I started reading 2000AD.

I first Dredd I ever read was 'The haunting of Sector House Nine'. So, personally, I think it was this style of Dredd strip that was the most definitive and the best.

 I can't really pinpoint any particular prog that I really liked that had a sucky Dredd story in it. As there are a few progs out there that I liked that didn't even feature Dredd.

Recently 2000 AD has been pretty damn solid and looking at the current issue (1518) I'd certianly buy it without Dredd being in it.

Obviously I like Dredd, but if a particular story is below par it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the rest in the slightest, just as the inevitable next instalment of Lobster Random wont affect my enjoyment of the other four stories.

I could easily envisage a long, high-quality run without Dredd, although I can't see it ever happening. If you'd said "without Dredd, 2000AD would be nothing" then I'd agree as, without an iconic character like Dredd, it'd long since have folded.

It's the disappointment level that does it.

A really poor Dredd story leaves me feeling sour towards the whole Prog, in the way that a sucky episode of Sin Dex or a boring Future Shock never could.  I expect more from Dredd.  However, there have been times where Slaine (my one-time favourite) has had the same effect - notably bits of Time Killer and nearly all the Time Warrior claptrap. I got over it, but only by lowering my expectations and eventually stopping caring. Ditto Nemesis, Rogue and ABC Warriors.

I have read 2000AD when there was nothing in it I enjoyed but Dredd, and not uncoincidentally my two or three 'wilderness' periods of the 90's all began while Ennis or Millar were writing Dredd.  I can't see myself stopping caring about Dredd the way i have about Slaine, Rogue and Anderson, so if he goes, or plummets in quality, I doubt I'd stay on board.  Scary thought.

What if Wagner quit writing Dredd & Strontium Dog?, would we buy tooth knowing there'd be no more Wagner stories?

would we buy tooth knowing there'd be no more Wagner stories?

Possibly.  While Wagner is without question the untouchably definitive Dredd scripter, I suspect that some  of my reservations about other authors' work is the idea that what happens isn't 'real' Dredd. Happening in real years, the relevance of each story to Dredd's history is an important element.  That's why throwaway drivel like Judgement Day and Inferno annoy me so much.  

If (when?) Wagner really did stop writing Dredd for good, and the big man passed entirely to a new regular guy (Rennie being the obvious choice, although I'd love to see Dabnett try out too), it'd be possible to have more interest in where the story was going. I certainly had no problems with Strontium Dog when Grant was flying solo (although I know many others did).

I'd be more comfortable still if Joe himslef was somehow replaced with one of the younger lads at that point, and things took off fresh.  Of course, only time would tell - it could become the rudderless disaster that post-Moore Swamp Thing has been.  But I wouldn't pre-judge it as an automatic disaster.

Stuggling to place a ++ crap Dredd Cover, crap Dredd story ++ but if I may be so bold-
prog 350's Dredd is a little more filler than thriller, with the rest of the line up being rock solid
classics.



IMHumbleO Dredd's universe has such a breadth and depth to it that, to my mind, handled
by the right creatives the title has come to mean more than just Joe and that the sum of the other parts
are equal to Dredd's presence.

Link: 350

I loved the Last Invader!

There must be tonnes more unadulterated crap Dredd in the 90's when it was being held together by Jamie Hewlitts artwork...


I'll get me coat.

More like it, Logan. Still seeing a lot of John and Gerry in the list.

If you try and go for a crap Dredd cover and story you end up with a few possibilities but then there's always a slaine, ace trucking garpetbaggers, mean team etc that is even worse. Go for a crap 90's Dredd and there's even worse in the Prog.

The search continues

you could pick one of the worst Dredd stories of all time and one hat even the writer dislikes but you come up with a really dire Prog savedby a second Dredd strip:

2000AD PROG 958
COVER DATE: 22nd September, 1995
Price: £1.00 Earth money
Cover: Sláine by Clint Langley

Awakening of Angels
Script: John Wagner
Artist: Carlos Ezquerra

Sláine
Lord of Misrule
Script: Pat Mills
Artist: Clint Langley

Vector 13
Case Eight: Echo Location
Script: Dan Abnett
Artist: Nigel Dobbyn

Journal of Luke Kirby
Old Straight Track
Script: Alan McKenzie
Artist: Steve Parkhouse

Maniac 6
Script: Mark Millar
Artist: Steve Yeowell

Judge Dredd
Bad Frendz
Script: John Wagner
Artist: Carlos Ezquerra

Link: Prog 958

>although I'd love to see Dabnett try out too

well its been a while but his previous Dredd's werent great, it doesnt help that a couple of the artists didnt help either.

Dan Abnett's Dredd's

Rad Blood
Progs 895 to 896
Artist: Ron Smith

Part Exchange
Prog 903
Artist: John Burns

C-H-A-M-P!
Prog 967
Artist: Anthony Williams

2000AD meeting it's 1000th prog marker like a rebelious teenager.

I'd say that was a level cross section being 1995.Backed with an awful crossbreeding with Dan Abnett. I bet the Ron Smith one is the naz.

Hey!

I liked Little Spuggy's Christmas. Fine art and a fine story.

- Huey

well its been a while but his previous Dredd's werent great

Don't think I've read any of those obvious classics.  I come at this suggestion as a very recent convert to the cult of He of the Fruitful Keyboard.  Until recently I hated latter Durham Red (still do) and all things Sin Dex.  But recently, Atavar, the VCs, later SinDex and now Kingdom have seen me really warm to the easy wit of his writing.  The man has always had ready access to an endless stream of ideas and so-godawful-they're-good puns, but recently he seems to have got the knack of making me interested in his characters and plots, even the most apparently superficial ones.  I'd suppose like to see what he could do with a Dredd of his own.  

Other possible contenders like R. Morrison, Spurious, J. Smith and Edginton bring too much of their own very distinct tone to Dredd - and while I enjoy their other work greatly, this usually means it's overwritten with either a grossly unlikeable or ludicrously sensitive Dredd wandering around.  Having read A. Moore's one-and-only Dredd srcipt, I see he had the same problem.  

Ennis has had his gore'n'slapstick-filled shot and by his own admission failed, although he did almost redeem himself with the fun Monkey on my Back.  Millar and G. Morrison owe us all a huge apology.  Grant palpably hates Dredd and despite his huge contribution over the years has lost the plot.  And Grud defend us from the Second Coming of Mills, tho' no denying the power of his early work on the character.

Then we come to Grennie, who has by now pretty much nailed Dredd's voice and world, but seems to spend too much time foregrounding the Family Dredd cast (now with L'il Kazan!), giving the whole thing a  Superman vibe - the Man of Steel is invulnerable and unchanging, so let's play instead with Jimmy, Lois, Perry and Luthor.  I suspect this is because Dredd and MC-1 aren't his to run with while Wagner remains Top Dog, and he's probably hit on a very clever alternative approach.  My niggling worry is that it's because he has nothing new to say about Dredd or MC-1.  I do find this paranoid thought hard to believe, given recent I-Can't-Believe-It's_Not-Wagner efforts.

Of all the above, the only untested horse in the stable is Abnett (ignoring those few early triumphs), and I'd like to see what he could do if he directed his huge energies in that direction.

Good work Logan! Thanks for the efforts.

As I said, I'm willing to be persuaded.

But I maintain that a weak Dredd damages the prog.

- Trout

I'm very picky about my thrills so I often rely on Dredd to carry the prog.

Without Wagner there is no Dredd however. When Wagner retires I'll probably be sorely tempted to stop reading the progs. I dont really rate Rennie or any of the other writers who've had a go at the character. Good writers but not good Dredd writers.

Having said that, I'd like to see a few more Ian Edginton stories before I finally give up hope of a replacement for Wagner.

I think the secret is in Dredd's dialogue.

Wagners voice from Dredd is deep sinister yet not cynical. Wise and not just a little stupid.

About Slaine. I was always alittle disappointed with  'The Time-Monster' Having read much of the moddle before seeing the beginning gave me different expectations regarding what would be in the first Slaine strip.

Dredd is usually the last thing I read, working on the basis that what annoyed me the most last week gets read first. However, in all-new line up progs, Dredd gets read first, as I'm more excited by the other stuff. (Well, to begin with, at least).

I usually find that Dredd makes it's way to the top of any set of stories, but there are other stories which muscle their way in too.

How about Progs 1350-1356, featuring the fairly awful Dredd story "The Satanist" which was more than compensated for by the revitalised Slaine, an amusing Strontium Dog, decent Beck & Kawl and the sublime Leviathan.

I'd also say that the first Caballistics stories, the start of Dante's pirate adventures (which actually promised to be quite entertaining at the time) and some decent Tales From Telguuth (a personal thing, but I've always had a soft spot for it) helped make up for Dredd vs Aliens.

I found The Beating Heart story had stronger competition to it more recently.


It's that thing like Dennis the Menace and Korky the Cat or Desperate Dan.

Not that the rest are fillers but there has been a lot of dangerous compliments in the past, to the Dredd story, the only one most casual readers remember.

I found The Beating Heart story had stronger competition to it more recently.


It's that thing like Dennis the Menace and Korky the Cat or Desperate Dan.

Not that the rest are fillers but there has been a lot of dangerous compliments in the past, to the Dredd story, the only one most casual readers remember.

"Without Dredd, 2000AD is nothing... " I have to disagree with that.

Historically, yes, 2000AD is built around DREDD, and yes, stories such as America and The Apocalypse War were fantastic but without knowing either of those two things (ie if you're a new reader) I think Dredd can come over as bit of a 2D all action character. I'm not saying I don't like Mega City One-i love it-but then I have read America, and do have a understanding of Dredd and his historic connection with 2000AD.

What i'm trying to say is 2000AD should stop using Dredd as their flagship character, strips such as Shakara, Rennie/Irving stuff, Caballistics Inc., Leviathan etc. would bring in a lot more new readers and make the comic seem a lot more diverse and interesting.

And i'd deffinately buy 2000AD if Dredd wasn't in it-although i don't think they should ever remove him from 2000AD.

Presently, Dredd is probably now a superior character icon and -in more cases than not- strip than any others at this moment in 2000AD's history.

When 2000AD was in it's heyday in the 80's Dredd had some excellent competition from many of the other strips. I don't think it's quite the same now. Not sayin' that the other strips aren't good, they are, but I don't think they are of the same significance that  Dredd has with 2000AD.

The fact that Dredd has developed and endured as much as it has states that fact. Dredd and 2000AD will be forever synonymous.

i think dredd is our anchor, but with so many superb and at times outstanding scripts and art work, they only add shine.

From Grace,
the recent SIN and DEX
avatar
Glimmer rats

these outstanding,story arcs  carried me for months,i have reread them many times.
there are so many others,but each of us has his own feeling on such things,

should the day come when wagner retires.i shall still be buying,only dredd wont be my first read,2000ad will still be the finest of crop of that i am sure.

an interesting question up there, O Trout.  I doubt if 2000 AD would have survived so long without Dredd, but it would still be good stuff without him.
  As to a good prog with a weak Dredd - I`m sure there are examples, but can`t think of any right now.

yours vaguely,

Floyd

I think the main thing about Dredd is the versatility of the setting, and no other 2000 AD strip comes remotely close. Dredd can move effortlessly from relatively throwaway 'humorous' outings to grim, gritty political stories such as America and action-movie-style 'epics'. And although Dredd isn't the most consistent of the strips in 2000 AD, it's the only one that works as a permanent centrepiece. In my time of reading the Prog (back into the 300s, but I've read most of the strips prior to that time, too), I think only Strontium Dog comes close to that positionâ??2000 AD's editor at the time made a big mistake allowing Alpha to be killed off. I can't think of any other story or character that would be able to carry the Prog on a permanent, weekly basis.

As for writing styles, I've come to the conclusion that it's a good thing to see the likes of Robbie Morrison scripting Dredd in the Meg. Sure, his Dredd is a long way from being right (or even good), but other writers need to start cutting their teeth on Dredd and getting him "right" for when Wagner finally decides enough is enough. I guess the main problem is consistency of characterâ??Smith's Dredd (like Smith's Rogue Trooper) appears to inhabit a more violent world than anyone else's, while Morrison's acts like the Dredd of the 1970s most of the time.

How about Progs 1350-1356, featuring the fairly awful Dredd story "The Satanist" which was more than compensated for by the revitalised Slaine, an amusing Strontium Dog, decent Beck & Kawl and the sublime Leviathan.


Ah... This is an answer I do agree with - a strong prog with a poor Dredd. I am hereby convinced it can be done! Thanks, also, to Logan for his examples, but this one is fresh in my memory.

The thread title was deliberately provocative, and I'm pleased it's drawn so much interest.

I still think a prog with a poor Dredd is a sad thing to experience.
But it seems we all agree the judge is very, very important to 2000AD.

- Trout

i think that statement is untrue. fair enough, dredd is 2000ad s best story but there are so many other good ones. if dredd was never in it in the first place then 2000ad will still be one of my favorite mags

"Without its anthology format, 2000AD is nothing."

 I totally agree with this. to be honest at the time I wasnâ??t impressed with rebellion when they took over but that was probably because I was so put off the prog with all the crap that happened before (The time when Miller/Morrison etc had most control was a really dark time and I only rarely picked up a prog for years after) but looking back at the last few years I can see that there has been a steady improvement in quality and also just plane experimental-er-ness that was such a hall mark of the golden years 9and not with standing the years before my favourite time was from Prog 555 when it all went up a gear every year until just before Big Dave appeared. now I didnâ??t always like it but I have been buying it every week (some times I have to do it monthly) for the last 18 months or so and even if Dredd disappeared then I would still buy it for as long as it was a breading ground for tomorrows talent from the British Isles

Judge Dredd is essential because there simply isn't a bigger star in the comic, no other comic characters have the same fame or pull.  In addition, the format of Dredd allows you to tell almost any type of story you want.  Dredd can be the hero or the bad guy, he can be the driving force of the story or merely a guest star.

2000AD can be enjoyable even without Dredd, but I personally don't think there's much in the comic that really requires any commitment from the reader.  If you're an ABC Warriors fan or a Strontium Dog fan, one story a year isn't going to keep you on board.

When Dredd is weak, the comic is weak.  This may not matter for the odd issue, or even a run of them, but when 2000AD was at it's low point in the nineties and John Wagner was away, there was no sense of being able to rely upon a strip to be any good.  While the writers on Dredd produced shit, even a weakened Dredd was enough to keep a core number of readers on board.  I'm certain if they'd dumped Dredd from the comic, it would have folded.

Until another comics superstar like Dredd comes along in such a versatile vehicle and backed by a consistant major talent, 2000AD needs Dredd.  It would survive until it started to hit one of its week patches and then go under.

I'm also convinced that like Ravens at the tower of London, if Pat Mills and John Wagner were to quit the comic it would also fold.  That's not to say there aren't good writers, but they have always given it a reliable core.

I was a long time 2000ad reader, and following John Wagners departure from Dredd in the 90's my interest rapidly declined and I moved away from 2000ad onto a variety of other comics (had a big Marvel phase, followed by a Japanese phase).

Not getting my weekly 2000ad is something I never would have thought possible only a couple of years before. So it must have been bad. I haven't had the courage to go back and atempt a re-read of Progs 600 to 700.....yet.

Judge Dredd is the anchor for the comic, but I think thats only really the case when John Wagner is writing it.

2000AD is now the only comic I read (I just lost touch with the American market, and interest) - and though I really enjoy the variety and have a reasonably strong loyalty to many of the strips (Strontium Dog, Caballisics and any Edginton/D'Israeli stuff in particular) - I'm not sure how long it would be before I drifted again without the ongoing presence of Dredd and Wagner in particular.

"I haven't had the courage to go back and atempt a re-read of Progs 600 to 700.....yet"

Actually, I think it was progs 700 to 800 that ended the relationship.

It would be interesting to see if another character could be a similarly strong anchor as Dredd. The problem is that too many are irrevocably tied to one writer, and often to one artist as well, so they couldn't be featured every single Prog - unless the writer artist team were a bit mental.
Apart from Dredd, Rogue Trooper is the only person to have enjoyed a lot of different writers trying him out. They've all been ok (except Fleisher), but not in the same league as Wagner on Dredd.
Pat Mills has at times managed to ensure that Slaine was in the Prog every week, so he was an anchor of sorts...
Don't think it would go down too well if Dredd only had a couple of outings a year whilst someone else had a turn at being in every Prog, though.

It's such a shame that Wagner can't simply go on forever.  Like many others I stopped reading during the bad times.  I was only a teenager but Dredd wasn't Dredd anymore- the point in Inferno, or wherever it was where he deliberatly flooded the cubes to prevent perps (driving tickets and all) being released was one of the many low points for me. It was like bad fan-fiction.

There is hope though. Rennie generaly does a good job and either him or whoever is entrusted will have to be backed and allowed the chance to prove themselves without being swamped with criticism.  You never know, they might make a great success of it.