2000 AD Online Forum

2000 AD => General => Topic started by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 04:55:17 PM

Title: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 04:55:17 PM
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but reading through the old annuals, something struck me about a comment in the first TPO article..

"Mills had been working on a series about black magic and the Occult, called Judge Dread" The first story "had something nasty going on at Stone henge, a black mass.  Judge Dread recognises the leader of the Satanists as someone he had sentenced to hang. That was the cliffhanger to the forst episode."

Obviously, the story never appeared and Wagner used the name for his own strip - "The concept was shelved, along with the art for the first episode by Lalia. Plans to publish it in a subsequent annual came to nothing"

However, in the 79 Annual, there is a story that fits this description perfectly called Doctor Sin Its six pages long, but the art on the last two pages appears to be by a different artist - and the cliffhanger on page 4 is the "Doctor" revealing he recognises the cult leader as a man he believes dead!  So surely this is the original Judge Dread?


Judge Dread
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!...
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 04:59:54 PM
...heavily rewritten of course, so that the name is changed, and the and the stuff about his brothers hand added - I wonder who rewrote the story?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 05:19:41 PM
Looking at the artwork on page one, the dead guys head looks like its been redrawn by the artist who did pages 5 and 6 to look like the fellows brother!

If this is the stroy (and I'm pretty sure it is - its definitely Lalia art for the first four pages(he's signed the first page) - the only thing is the Sabbat is not being held at Stonehenge, as PAt Mills recalled, but even so, surely this must be the strip?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: paulvonscott on 15 February, 2003, 05:37:26 PM
May be watcher, I've just read it, the second guy doesn't have any letratone.  It's interesting, but Not great, I'm sure it could have been developed though.

Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!...
Post by: Kate_Halprin on 15 February, 2003, 08:22:23 PM
It can't be by Pat Mills - the Satanists are the bad guys!

I always got the impression that Judge Dread was supposed to be an historical strip but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 09:05:52 PM
Heh - true enough, though it appears to be heavily rewritten to make the dead guy on page 1 Harry Ellis's brother (look at the art - the dead guy's head looks drawn in by the artist on page 5 and 6 - maybe it was his head missing in the original?!), and added all that stuff about his missing hand (which you see no evidence of until page 5.  That last panel on page 4 is soooo cliffhanger, with its wibbly lines!

Its likely that Pats script was very different to this version.  With the problems around toning down Invasion and Mach 1, maybe a scarred headless body was just too much?  It could well be that the story was rewritten by someone in editorial, based on the art and maybe the original script?  That said, the Satanists are opposing a motorway, so maybe if the story had continued Pat might have made them the heroes! :)
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 09:08:36 PM
Rereading it, that first page is crying out for the guy to be saying "Wheres his HEAD?!" rather than right hand....  I'd love to see the original script hooked up to the original art if that was the case - groovy!
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!...
Post by: Smiley on 15 February, 2003, 10:42:33 PM
Spooky. I thought this too. Lalia's art for the first four pages of Doctor Sin corresponded with the info on Judge Dread in The Mega-History.

As for the original Hanging Judge story, the only trace is a brief entry in the 2000AD Make-Up Book Prog 1-44, which relates to a four page Mills script (for which he was paid ?30) called 'Black Magic: Judge Dread - Original Instalment One', and was drawn by Argentine artist Horacio Lalia. A pencilled entry reads 'Unsuitable - except maybe in Annual'. As far as Mills can remember the strip was never published - anywhere.

However, I hit a snag. Could Bishop and Mills along with Colin Jarman & Peter Acton (authors of the history) have all overlooked the possibilty of Judge Dread being published as Doctor Sin in the '79 annual? Is it likely?

I daresay Mills couldn't give a monkey's and the others might only be guilty of printing the legend. But without any evidence to the contrary, it's the only thing that fits :)
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 10:49:22 PM
Yeah, it seems unlikely that this has been overlooked all these years - however, doesnt it seem even more unlikely that Lalia would draw two Black Magic themed four parters that end with the same cliffhanger and feature a vampiric looking retired professional?  The fact that the art for the story has been amended and two pages added are the clinchers for me that this story is most likely Judge Dread.  

If not, where else would the four page unfinished Black magic story have come from?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 11:05:36 PM
I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to get Pat Mills to look at the artwork - I'm sure he would remember it - Its a shame he doesnt do conventions anymore.  "The Doctor Who of the Occult" - Doctor Sin?

I'd forgotten about the John Smith story in the action 92 annual - IIRC he said that he wrote that story for a DC character that never got revived, and just adapted it for the Action special?  I'm going to search through a few old mags and see what I dig up...
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 11:12:11 PM
Think Im confusing it with Dr Fate... oh well - keep searching
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 15 February, 2003, 11:19:40 PM
According to the Alan McKenzie in the April 92 edition of Comics collector (later Comics World)...

The 2000AD Action Special has brought...60's characters...into the 90's.  Doctor Sin was a character originally created for Valiant, but who made his only appearance in the 1979 2000AD annual"

Hmmm - the plot thickens - was Lalia around when Valiant was about?  Would Valiant have printed such a gory story?  This is assuming Alan McKenzie wasnt misinformed himself....
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Smiley on 16 February, 2003, 12:01:16 AM
I wasn't saying Sin couldn't be Dread, I was agreeing with you that it most likely was. The point is we just don't know. There's evidence, but that needs confirmation from whoever commissioned or edited 'Doctor Sin' for the annual, or at least someone involved.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 12:22:18 AM
Yeah, Smiley - getting confirmation of whether it is or not would probably involve Pat Mills, as he is the only known name around from those times (though maybe Wagner might recollect it? less likely I suppose).  As I said, its a shame he doesnt do conventions, as we could have got an answer straight from the horses mouth - any way of contacting him through this site or Rebellion though?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Wake on 16 February, 2003, 01:45:03 AM
I could give it a go...he responded to my last query about the Matchbox Raider Command.

Would you like to draft the question/evidence in as much detail as possible and send it to me?

Wake
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Smiley on 16 February, 2003, 01:50:39 AM
I could be wrong, but I think the deputy editor was usually responsible for putting annuals together. So, whoever that was at the time... anyone confirm?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 01:51:19 AM
Thanks Wake!

I'll scan a couple of piccys from it that might jog his memory, plus come up with a summary of the points above - (another point to add to all this circumstancial pondering is that the 1978 annual does exactly the same trick with the rejected Lalia strip Death bug - extended by another 4 pages by what looks like the same artist in the Doctor Sin strip)
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 01:53:27 AM
Alan Grant or Nick Landau, maybe?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Kate_Halprin on 16 February, 2003, 01:56:19 AM
I dug my old annual out and couldn't spot the join between the art! Not that I'd've recognised Laila's work anyway.

On the other hand, the villain's name seems to change between pages 4 and 5!

The story is listed as a reprint in the 1992 2000AD Yearbook but I guess that they probably didn't know where it came from back then either!
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 02:11:39 AM
Heh  -well spotted Kate - that can go on the list.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 06:24:29 AM
I've sent the 'evidence' off to Wake, so now we can only wait....If it does turn out to be Dread, who would be up for another Mills Dread story for prog 2004?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Noisybast on 16 February, 2003, 06:29:00 AM
Hmmm... Curiouser & curiouser. I haven't actually got the annual in question, but I'll have to have a dig around my local 2nd hand book/comics emporium & try to find it now!
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: ukdane on 16 February, 2003, 03:45:17 PM
Fantastic detective work....
...no wonder they call you "The Watcher".

You've really got me intrigued by this little mystery. I'd love to see what Mills could come up with for Prog 2004, as well as maybe a more indepth version of the "official" behind-the-scenes story of the strips.

Now, who watches the watcher?
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: paulvonscott on 16 February, 2003, 05:33:57 PM
Nice if they could rejig the text so it matched the original version.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!...
Post by: Last of the V8's on 16 February, 2003, 05:46:00 PM
Also notice how the last panel has a word ballonn drawn but no lettering placed.
Strange...
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: ukdane on 16 February, 2003, 08:36:23 PM
Watch,
Have you scanned all the pages into your pc?
If not, in the interest of community spirit, and so other members of the board who haven't read/seen the strip can see it, I will.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Wake on 16 February, 2003, 08:41:36 PM
It certainly seems to be a prime candidate for the thrill viewer, if you can scan it to a reasonable enough quality.

Wake
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 10:17:09 PM
No, UK - I just scanned  panels that I thought might be helpful in reminding Pat - Scan away!
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: ukdane on 16 February, 2003, 10:34:49 PM
Right-oh...
Just sent Wake the entire story to put up on the site.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 16 February, 2003, 10:59:41 PM
HEHEH!  Its up already!
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: ukdane on 16 February, 2003, 11:06:35 PM
Here's a link!

Link: Read Doctor Sin Online!

Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!...
Post by: karne on 16 February, 2003, 11:56:32 PM
Yeah, that's typical. I trawl through my loft looking for the annual only to find the story in question posted on site. Anyway, from the look of the artwork, I'd say that the first four pages were probably a "pilot" episode, later finished off as a cheap space filler for the annual.

The artwork on the last two pages is, if I'm not mistaken, that of Alan Willow (You may remember him from Disaster 1990 and the Target Doctor Who novels). He seemed to be one of those freelance artists who stepped in at a moments notice (when artwork had gone missing in the post or not arrived by the deadline), and had a style similar to that of Mike White and Carlos Pino.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: paulvonscott on 17 February, 2003, 12:53:36 AM
Now I look at it again, the watcher is right, that is a transplanted head, it looks too small for the body as well.

Must remember to take my bucket of holy water with me when I go on my next occult assignment.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!......
Post by: Bolt-01 on 17 February, 2003, 01:26:49 AM
Nice link. I had forgotten all about that story. I really remember the poor wretch who died after getting out of the car. That was one of the strongest images I took with me into adolescence.

If that is the original owner of the Judge Dread title, it would be interesting.

rotts
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: mongor2003 on 17 February, 2003, 08:53:02 PM
This would be great as a one-off in 2000gold.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Wake on 18 February, 2003, 04:54:21 AM
Here is the reply from Pat Mills.
___________________________________________

Could be.  The thing I recall was setting the story at Stonehenge, so if that's there it's the clincher.  The rest I don't recall, but is possible - especially the hanging Judge dramatic head shot.  Lalia would have been an obvious choice.

If all else fails, Kelvin Gosnell would know.
Title: Re: Judge Dread IS Doctor Sin!.......
Post by: Leigh S on 18 February, 2003, 05:11:49 AM
Ah well - that's disappointing - if there's one thing this strip doesnt feature that's in the info we already know about this strip, it's Stonehenge - that decrepit ruin looks very Lalia... I was hoping the headshot might jog some memories... Still, its not an out and out dismissal

I wonder if David Bishop, or someone else at Rebellion is still able to contact Kelvin...  Our last hope !