Because the forum search function is so bloody useless, I can't be bothered to try and track down the thread where we had a big ol' discussion about Rogue Trooper's development and GFD's contribution.
However, thanks to an unrelated Facebook post, I've been directed to this article (https://downthetubes.net/rogue-trooper-history-for-sale/?fbclid=IwAR1yb6A0csXePNweo2MMuIHhy8LzvW4y2rbqIMPxlkE2l2_70v0_GOFZFuY) on Down The Tubes.
If you scroll down a ways, you'll find the original pitch document which, the accompanying text confirms, was written by Dave Gibbons. There's an awful lot of what went into the final strip in there, whilst we also know that a lot of what GFD brought to the table ("He's like the Euro-Fighter plane project — one group made his legs, another made his arms!") was (rightly, it would seem) jettisoned at the thrashing-it-out meeting between Gibbons, GFD, and Steve Mac.
I'm not trying to make a particular point here — I'm only breaking this out into a new thread because I can't track down the original discussion and I thought it might be of interest to those who participated in that thread.
(And, again, I have a lot of time for a big chunk of what GFD did in Battle... I'm not trying to spin this into a 'worthless hack' narrative, but I still maintain he was never a great fit for 2000AD.)
Another piece that might be interesting is in the 1983 2000 AD Annual - there are a couple of features, including some of Dave Gibbons early art designs: Rogue Trooper Battle Pages and Mega-Stars in the Making.
The evidence is very much there to suggest that Gibbons and indeed MacManus may have had a bigger hand than GFD in shaping who Rogue was, and what his deal was, and his world - but surely the actual ploitting and dialogue for each episode did at the very least originate in the mind of GFD. Even if someone else then needed to tidy up some spelling and perhaps panel-to-panel plot stuff?
Rogue Trooper steadily declined as it went on, but for like three years it's banger after banger to my mind, and I'm inclined to give GFD a big chunk of credit for that, including the overall punkish 2000AD vibe of 'War is hell, but I'm sure gonna do it a lot'. But I will certainly agree that the first few stories, which are probably still the best, feel like it's Gibbons who is doing all the heavy lifting, no doubt in the plotting/setting as much as the art.
I find it a bit like the Kirby vs Lee debate: it's pretty clear that Jack Kirby had the ideas, designed the characters and indeed constructed the plots - but whatever it was that Lee did (dialogue, most obviously, but I think also a fair chunk of characterisation), it added a LOT of value. G F-D has that added-value thing in him, too, for my money.
Quote from: AlexF on 17 March, 2022, 09:38:59 AM
The evidence is very much there to suggest that Gibbons and indeed MacManus may have had a bigger hand than GFD in shaping who Rogue was
I suppose my picking away at this has less to do with GFD's
actual contribution and more to do with Pat Mills' assertion that it's disrespectful to GFD for other writers to work in the Rogue Trooper universe whilst simultaneously asserting that Dredd is a "house character" because of the multiple hands involved the strip's development in the early days.
It seems to me that if you're going to put Dredd in the category of "house character" and declare him fair game, it's difficult to argue that the same doesn't apply to Rogue (in a way that doesn't apply to, say, Strontium Dog, which is
clearly the product of the writer and artist's vision, despite early turns on the art by other artists in the Starlord days).
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 March, 2022, 11:19:47 AM
I suppose my picking away at this has less to do with GFD's actual contribution and more to do with Pat Mills' assertion that it's disrespectful to GFD for other writers to work in the Rogue Trooper universe whilst simultaneously asserting that Dredd is a "house character" because of the multiple hands involved the strip's development in the early days.
If your point is that Pat Mills, much as we love him, is inconsistent in his arguments, then you've got a long, long thread ahead of you.
The man who wrote Third World War, Finn and all those eco-ABC Warrior stories is currently going full-tilt down the NFT rabbit-hole, so... yeah. Inconsistent is right.
Oh well, if this is about House characters, then frankly Rogue is THE poster child for that concept. And I'd be inclined to lump in all of the original 2000AD line-up (including Dredd), who seemed designed to BE house characters that any jobbing writer or artist could have a go at.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 March, 2022, 11:19:47 AMwhilst simultaneously asserting that Dredd is a "house character" because of the multiple hands involved the strip's development in the early days.
I always got the impression he wanted to keep his hand in as having been one of the big drivers behind Dredd. To be fair, he was right at the very start, but that strip very rapidly left him behind, along even with big chunks of the lore he scripted. It very much became Wagner/Grant's baby and then Wagner's alone.
Then again, having temporarily dipped into his feed just now, he seems to be inferring The Boys is a bit too similar to Marshal Law and lobbing across NFT criticism to Lisa. (There's also his recent blog post on NFTs.)
Also, looks like there's going to be another Accident Man film. One can only assume this time he'll fight for the artist to be fully recognised, right?
I assumed the blog post was written by Lisa as it refers to the author having worked in the environmental sector?
Yes. Millsverse ≠ Mills, which I was typotastic on in my post.
The post itself (https://www.millsverse.com/response-to-our-little-twitter-storm-about-nfts/) is quite interesting, and grapples with massive issues in the NFT space. It'll be interesting to see where they go with this, but said space does seem to be at odds with Mills's own attitudes and history – NFTs and crypto right now present themselves as a kind of forward-thinking decentralised opportunity, but are too often speculation and, in the media space, often align with pyramid schemes. If folks can figure out how to do these things better (environmentally; ethically; etc), all power to them; but right now, even the bare basics of rights assignment and basic ownership with virtual media look to be a nightmare.
Couldnt disagree with any of that
Rogue is as much of a "joint effort" as Dredd was. Like I said in the previous thread, Wagners vision of Jeff Stryker - EXTREME COP! vs Carlos's artistic vision elevating that vs Millls editorial sorting the wheat from the chaff is pretty much mirrored here.
GFD wants Tube Trooper with his Euro-arms Gibbons art and own take elevate that. MacManus corales it all into the winning formula it becomes.
In both cases, its Wagner and GFD who pilot that craft so successfully that the strips become Iconic.
If you are calling Dredd a House Character, so is Rogue
That said, if you are asking me if I prefer a Dredd story by Wagner / Rogue story by GFD, then I'll also align and say yes to both, as the best of both strips is by them, outside of Moore dabbling - if Moore had dabbled with dredd, that would probably be true there as well.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 March, 2022, 11:19:47 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 17 March, 2022, 09:38:59 AM
The evidence is very much there to suggest that Gibbons and indeed MacManus may have had a bigger hand than GFD in shaping who Rogue was
I suppose my picking away at this has less to do with GFD's actual contribution and more to do with Pat Mills' assertion that it's disrespectful to GFD for other writers to work in the Rogue Trooper universe whilst simultaneously asserting that Dredd is a "house character" because of the multiple hands involved the strip's development in the early days.
It seems to me that if you're going to put Dredd in the category of "house character" and declare him fair game, it's difficult to argue that the same doesn't apply to Rogue (in a way that doesn't apply to, say, Strontium Dog, which is clearly the product of the writer and artist's vision, despite early turns on the art by other artists in the Starlord days).
I can't agree with you about GFD writing the best Rogue stories I'm afraid. John Smith's Cinnabar and Dave Gibbons's script for War Machine are far better.
I like Cinnabar, but it all it does is Smithify the setting.
I tyhink War Machine is one of the most over rated stories the comic ever put out, stripping the story of the things that made it unique and "charming" - No Nu-Earth (people can breathe the air), no Bio Chips so Rogue has this ponderous self narration.
The only stores I;d put up there are Moores,mostly because he sticks to the established tropes but does them superlatively.
Theres been flickers of interesting things in Rogue Revival stuff, but nothing that really mines the setting in a way that makes it as compelling as GFD did for those first few years
Quote from: Richard on 17 March, 2022, 08:24:27 PM
I can't agree with you about GFD writing the best Rogue stories I'm afraid. John Smith's Cinnabar and Dave Gibbons's script for War Machine are far better.
Quote from: Mister Pops on 17 March, 2022, 08:27:14 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 March, 2022, 04:32:24 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 17 March, 2022, 12:15:32 PM
...NFT rabbit-hole...
Non-Fungible Tokens?
Tokens that can't be turned into mushrooms?
...inside a rabbit's hole?
That reminds of another story today about hairy holes: Scientists claim hairy black holes explain Hawking paradox (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-60708711)
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GFD did present a ton of great ideas in the setting: dreamweavers, biowire, hoppers and all the rest. Cinnabar riffs on a lot of that, as does War Machine (which is RT meets Blade Runner). You can't have one without the other, really.
When I read Cinnabar Ihadn't realised how much was already canon- the biowire of course, but also Bagman's [spoiler]flimsy mental state[/spoiler].
I still think Smiffy made it fresher and better though. There's some inarticulate clown on Eamonn's podcast banging on about it, and his views are similar to my own.
Context is king - the positioning of Cinnabar is really why it's so good - it harked back to the golden age of the strip.
The core arc of the strip had ended in 1984 (in prog 392), and we'd then had the not as compelling Horst adventure followed by all-style-no-bite Hit series dribbing and drabbing its way through the prog in disparate fits and starts.
Cinnabar was all like "remember how kick ass this used to be?" and Tharg was all like "Dave Gibbons and me are rebooting it so what-evs".