Another Saturday Prog (reviewed late due to ongoing access to the forum at home issues, they areally are doing my noggin in!). Anyway dynamic cover, even if we have seen this type of thing a gazillion times before.
Inside maybe not quite as good as last week.
Dredd, solid continuation of a good story with an intriguing final page which will hopefully set up a good epsidoe next week.
Joe Pineapples. Ends without fanfare... does Pat Mills time in the prog do likewise. I've not enjoyed much of his work for a LONG time yet if this is him bowing out - and Tharg was never going to say that was the case, but if it is that's kinda sad... the episode was a kinda sad way for him to go too. All a bit uncomfortable really, but it is what it is and have to give Pat Mills massive thanks for all he contributed to the Prog and the amazing stories of his heyday.
That said comics have moved on and The Out's brilliance just shows how much. Another cracker and that final page... can't wait for next week.
Both The Order and Proteus Vex continue their thrilling stories in their own wonderful inimitable styles. Its fascinating that both are dealing with the big, no massive cosmic (or inter-dimensional) conflicits of massive scale and yet they both handle that so differently. The Order keeps things centred, intimiate (well as much as a massive interdimensional cosmic end of time conflicit can be!) and personal. Proteus Vex just explodes the scale all over its glorious pages. Both so different, both work so well.
Both could only sit side by side in a comic as amazing as 2000ad.
Cover by Edin Coveney:
(https://dyn.media.forbiddenplanet.com/CJKyKyQylwke2rGdeuQ30E0bJII=/trim/fit-in/779x1024/filters:format(webp)/https://media.forbiddenplanet.com/products/e4/bd/aa01ca4de4592e931cb19b11b255a9143859.jpeg)
B/W Cover:
(https://previewsworld.com/SiteImage/MainImage/STL240652.jpg)
I'll read the rest when I have time, but on reading Colin's comment I thought I'd get Joe Pineapples out of the way. That was... quite something. I mean, there are words. Things definitely happen. But it's the script equivalent of word salad. We get a Quartz joke that was quite funny when we first saw it decades ago. Copy > Paste. We get a brief battle where the Warriors are clearly all going to be fine. The entire thing reads like fan fiction. (Also, that cross-dressing line. Really?)
It's impossible to overstate the importance of Pat Mills in modern comics. And I mean that in the broadest possible sense. Molch-R recently said in an interview that without 2000 AD, no modern comics. Hyperbolic? Sure. But things at the very least would have played out very differently without the 'British invasion'. And chances are you don't get that without 2000 AD. And you don't get 2000 AD without Pat Mills.
Through his hard work in the 1970s, we got the foundation for something amazing and surprisingly enduring. (Honestly, how many readers thought they'd still be reading 2000 AD in the 2020s?) And many of his own works were pretty fantastic too. Early Nemesis amazed the younger me, just as it was designed to. Sláine was like nothing I'd ever read. Metalzoic was great stuff. But at some point, something broke. The politics became the story rather than being infused into it. The conspiracy theories boiled over. And Mills himself has repeatedly said that he took his foot off of the accelerator when it comes to 2000 AD. Joe Pineapples kind of represents the worst of everything that's happened to his 2000 AD output in recent years, and that's sad. But if he doesn't write for the Prog again, so be it, because I'd sooner something better sit in those slots.
In a way the saddest part of this is I won't miss Mills' work in the Prog. And that's quite a thing given he wrote some of my very favourite things in the Prog: Slaine, Nemesis and ABC Warriors. But the thing is, for all of them it's the early series only.
And yes a great debt of gratitude is due to Pat for the very existence of 2000AD in the first place, but as Colin says comics have moved on.
And it's not as if I'm sitting here eagerly awaiting the next thing from Spacewarp. It's been so long and won't be an anthology, so I'm not really that bothered.
I also feel the same will not miss Pat Mills in the prog (I will not even bother the pick up Spacewarp 2 when it ever arrives). I was hoping that the possible last series from Pat will end with a brazen trumpet blowing grand finale but it feels more like a whisper. So ends a legacy. So long, and thanks you for the fish
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 05 March, 2023, 09:20:41 AMMills himself has repeatedly said that he took his foot off of the accelerator when it comes to 2000 AD. Joe Pineapples kind of represents the worst of everything that's happened to his 2000 AD output in recent years, and that's sad.
I think it's really sad and it might have been kinder to say something editorial before this godawful mess of a story was allowed to be published. I don't think allowing it to run unedited was the right thing to & it's a bit like trying to stop your mates embarrassing themselves when their trousers are round their ankles staggering around.
I thought Mills' best work is where he is obviously enjoying weaving in the research he did for the stories, the best of recent was Defoe which was great for the most part, lets just forget that last series when they went into space eh.
Good cover btw, reminded me of Steve Dillon
That's the rest of the Prog read and... well...
One thing comes to mind, and it makes me a little sad. You get the feeling if The Out or Proteus Vex were running as Image comics, they'd be winning all sorts of awards. People across the internet would be falling over themselves to say how bloody fantastic they are. But because they're part of an anthology that manages to only hold some kind of cult status outside of the UK – despite being 46 years old – I imagine relatively few people even know of their existence. Here's hoping more people can spread the word. Anyway...
Dredd continues to engage. Some great scripting and moments. (Uk!) Art is pretty good, despite the slight weirdness in terms of contemporary fashion and vehicles (it's more Dredd than Judge Dredd), and, as ever, the strip being mostly full of white men.
Pineapples I've already covered. I'm glad it's over.
The Out is very wordy and dense this week, and it feels like there needs to be more room for the art. But, my, is it a wonderful strip and a superb episode. (If an editor is reading, there's a fix for a collected edition needed: _may be_ the Up too on p4.) It feels criminal Pineapples got seven pages when this got just five. Bah.
The Order nudges up a level for me over last week's episode. Better. more comprehensible. Someone also mentioned online how old John Burns is now. Blimey. He's still got it.
Proteux Vex also absolutely smashes it out of the park – and then some. Again, this is a strip that deserves to be read by far, far more people.
In all, an excellent Prog. Four strips that sit somewhere on the spectrum between very good and among the best things the Prog has ever run. Not bad for a 46-year-old.
The Out > Vex > Dredd > The Order >>>>>>>>>>>> Pineapples
A good prog with 4 super enjoyable thrills and an exit.
Dredd – The corporate battle continues with an all-out action episode. Good ending to the episode interesting what is going to happen next. I like Manco's take on Dredd and that is something that I always liked different artists different interpretations of the source material more freedom.
Joe Pineapples –The story itself barely registered with me and was almost nonsensical. The main problem for me with the series was that it more showcase Clint Langley's art than an actual story. Maybe this would have worked better as a compressed story like a 12 pager in the xmas prog. After reading the final episode I appreciate Skip Tracer's grand finale more.
The Out – Cyd's journey of discovery continues as Cyd tries to get answers and ends with more questions. She lands on a planet that promises answers and the episode ends with a possible revelation in the next. Bring it on.
The Order – The battle royale continues as the shadows step-by-step gets thwarted. It looks like things will come to an end quickly, but I would like to go back to Anna and see what Is happening to her.
Proteus Vex – Just another great episode as the final battle is reaching its climax. Tsellest will do anything and sacrifice everything for his own pried. Just awesome stuff from the creative team.
Very welcome Tuesday Prog after a messed up commute.
Dredd – Not really clicking for me so far. Lots of violence but it's all a bit joyless isn't it? Same issue as last week with the art being lovely, but not looking all that MC-1-esque overall. It'll be interesting to see what happens next with the reveal that this isn't just a straight up war of succession..
Joe Pineapples – Prog 2316 Joe says he's never going to see his mates in the ABCs again: little montage of them all in action. Prog 2322: after going through a timehole that apparently was there all the time, he immediately rejoins the Warriors.
Sadly this episode was pretty nonsensical. I really wanted to like this and it had a few cool moments overall, but this was a real duffer of a tale.
The Out – This is superb. Looks great, a lot of dialogue but all well-written and engaging, and a great cliffhanger.
The Order – This seems to suddenly be moving very quickly and I'm worried it'll suddenly end. I would also like to get back to Anna, or Clara / poorly realised Gideon. That aside, this is cool pulpy fun and looks magnificent.
Proteus Vex – This is also superb. Not sure what else to say about this that I or others haven't said already.. Gripping, epic stuff.
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 08 March, 2023, 10:05:46 AMJoe Pineapples – Prog 2316 Joe says he's never going to see his mates in the ABCs again: little montage of them all in action. Prog 2322: after going through a timehole that apparently was there all the time, he immediately rejoins the Warriors.
It was all so inconsequential. Nothing mattered. I mean, the ABC Warriors has had that problem for a while. The cast is indestructible, unless 1) they present as female, or 2) Mills wants to be rid of a cast member to replace them with someone else. But this tale felt like a series of events that just happened. Compare that to The Out and especially Proteus Vex, where I'm finding myself reading every page fully invested in what will happen.
Oh well. Short of Dry Run II showing up next week, the Prog will get an uptick purely on the basis that four solid to stellar thrills are running, and the one duffer is going away.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 08 March, 2023, 10:11:32 AMOh well. Short of Dry Run II showing up next week, the Prog will get an uptick purely on the basis that four solid to stellar thrills are running, and the one duffer is going away.
The surprise return of Skippy
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 05 March, 2023, 08:15:27 AMJoe Pineapples. Ends without fanfare... does Pat Mills time in the prog do likewise. I've not enjoyed much of his work for a LONG time yet if this is him bowing out - and Tharg was never going to say that was the case, but if it is that's kinda sad... the episode was a kinda sad way for him to go too. All a bit uncomfortable really, but it is what it is and have to give Pat Mills massive thanks for all he contributed to the Prog and the amazing stories of his
I wasn't expecting much, as it was never planned as a swan song, though the stuff about the robots freeing themselves from Howard Quartz's control did feel like a middle finger to Rebellion, and to the mainstream comics industry in general. I do genuinely want
Spacewarp to succeed, as I'm a fan of that DIY indie ethos on principle. I just wish it was better. The irony is, it'll mostly be Rebellion reprints that remind us how great he used to be.
Quote from: nxylas on 08 March, 2023, 03:02:36 PMI wasn't expecting much, as it was never planned as a swan song, though the stuff about the robots freeing themselves from Howard Quartz's control did feel like a middle finger to Rebellion, and to the mainstream comics industry in general.
In the past decade it's felt like Mills was building towards a final reckoning with Quartz in both 'The ABC Warriors' and 'Savage' so having him pop up here should have been more substantial that it turns out to be.
A series where Joe and Ro-Jaws mope around in a non-plot for weeks before a rushed action bit in the finale isn't just unsatisfying, it feels like Mills has forgotten the rules of comics storytelling that he drummed into a generation of creators back when he was in charge.
Is it just me, or does the end of this week's Dredd suggest we're unexpectedly about to drop back into the various subplots about Judge Maitland that have been chugging away in the background for years?
After reading this weeks issue I'm happy this is the last mills strip it's so past it time compared to the out and proteus vex, mills has turned from the cool kid wearing a leather jacket when you was a kid to the sad old man talking rubbish in the pub
Why does the art in Joe Pineapples swap from colour to black and white and back again?
Usually there is some story reason for it, but if that's the case here, I don't get it.
Or did Clint Langley just run out of time to colour it?
Normally it is done to wen a scene is in the past. But in the last episode it does not make sense since its should all be in the present.
Quote from: Jacqusie on 05 March, 2023, 07:35:41 PMit's a bit like trying to stop your mates embarrassing themselves when their trousers are round their ankles staggering around
Sadly (but also amusingly) this best sums up my thoughts. Although
'Tin Man' has shown brief flashes of the old Mills brilliance, this concluding instalment is an utter shambles. It reads like there wasn't a proper ending and Pat had about four different ideas so knocked up a couple of pages for each one and ran them all together, and the muddled art styles only emphasises this. The page that's just a list of companies is embarrassing. Sorry.
Onto better things,
'Succession' builds with characteristic Niemand panache and ends with a fantastic panel. I'm actually on board with Manco's towering respirators now (hey, every Dredd art droid needs a trademark!) and his Lawmaster on the opening page is phenomenal - love all that empty space underneath.
The spectacular tapestry that is
The Out gathers more threads and invites a complete re-read of the weavings so far, in order to appreciate its intricate beauty.
The Order, by contrast, seems content to tie everything off with the minimum of complication. And to continue the loom allegory, an electrifying instalment of
Proteus Vex pulls the rug out from under our feet with a shock twist.
Oh and the Coveney/Blythe cover is the absolute business. Nice to see a bit of comic art capturing a fast moment like that not spoiled by Photoshopped blur.
Quote from: norton canes on 09 March, 2023, 10:06:05 AMThe page that's just a list of companies is embarrassing.
That reminded me of the Little Britain sketch with the Barbara Cartland character dictating from the phone book to fill up the word count of her novel.
Quote from: Grush on 09 March, 2023, 10:45:26 AMQuote from: norton canes on 09 March, 2023, 10:06:05 AMThe page that's just a list of companies is embarrassing.
That reminded me of the Little Britain sketch with the Barbara Cartland character dictating from the phone book to fill up the word count of her novel.
Or a Tony Parsehole column in right that's 500 words inv enc.
To be fair that page is a call-back to an almost identical page with different companies in Ro-Busters. It's not a great joke to start with, but as a call-back it sort of works. I think it's a gag that's been reused a few times. Perhaps too many.
Given Mills's proclivity for recycling, that just irked for me.
Quote from: The Corinthian on 08 March, 2023, 05:52:32 PMIs it just me, or does the end of this week's Dredd suggest we're unexpectedly about to drop back into the various subplots about Judge Maitland that have been chugging away in the background for years?
The Maitland storyline is one of Rob Williams'so I doubt she'll show up here.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 09 March, 2023, 01:59:12 PMQuote from: The Corinthian on 08 March, 2023, 05:52:32 PMIs it just me, or does the end of this week's Dredd suggest we're unexpectedly about to drop back into the various subplots about Judge Maitland that have been chugging away in the background for years?
The Maitland storyline is one of Rob Williams'so I doubt she'll show up here.
unfortunately
I very much enjoyed the entire Prog - apart from THE ORDER - which i will be glad to see the back of .
I am fairly ( actually amazed ) at the harsh words for Pat Mill's Joe Pineapples ( first scripted in 2016 )
it's not Pat's Fault - this took nearly 7 or 8 years to appear in print -
let that sink in , if you ignore everything else I write here .
I thoroughly enjoyed ;) the story - and I add , I am a subscriber since 2012 .
the old saying comes to mind , if you have nothing nice to say , best say nothing .
Thank you Mr Mills for all your work .
One of the best things about the forum is the debate about what is good and what isn't. It's way better than some Facebook Groups I'm in, for some band, where there is little critical appraisal and some people appear to think that everything the band has ever put out is wonderful.
So I think saying you don't like a particular strip is fine, so long as reasons are given and it doesn't decend into personal criticism. I think on the whole the forum stays on the right side of that line.
Quote from: 73north on 12 March, 2023, 02:21:17 PMthe old saying comes to mind , if you have nothing nice to say , best say nothing .
Thank you Mr Mills for all your work .
but yet you are happy to see the back of the order?
I also like it when we get some differing opinions here - if anything we don't get quite as much debate as I'd like on the Prog thread tbh! I'm also in a couple of groups for music things where there's very little critical analysis of stuff and things are either a huge love-in, or everything gets slagged off. The different views on here is one of the things I like here: as an anthology I never expect to like 100% of the Prog and I never read someones opinion that's not the same as mine and think 'oh, that's wrong' - in fact I'm really interested if they say why they like something I didn't, because it encourages me to go back and look at it with a fresh perspective.
It's quite cool to read a positive opinion on Joe Pineapples, because the almost overwhelmingly negative response it had here was a bit uncomfortable. It really wasn't for me, but I'm glad someone was digging it.
I doubt this forum is ever fully representative of the wider readership, and I've no doubt Pineapples clicked with some people. There's certainly a group of readers on social media who seem excited by it, although it's hard to know how many of them actually read the Prog these days.
As for criticism, we're fine with it here as long as it's constructive and doesn't veer into personal insults. And with Mills, it's worth noting that a lot of criticism has been a reflection of the ongoing venom he's hurled Rebellion's way in recent years, and his own repeated admissions that he took his foot off of the accelerator.
Still, yes, I'm glad someone liked it. But I'm not going to change my own tune on a series that for me did almost nothing whatsoever when it came to the script. (The art was a lot better, especially when Langley took over.)
I find it hard to post a straight pro- or anti- opinion on Tin Man, because my own reaction to it was...complicated. I thought it was a mess, but there were parts I liked. But was that because they were actually any good, or because they reminded me of other, better Mills work?
Anyway, I think his best stuff right now is over on his Substack blog. I find his Storyteller and Secret History posts fascinating, and whilst I already read the Serial Killer novels when they first came out, they do show that his satirical savagery remains undimmed, even if his prose falls flat at times.
Quote from: moly on 08 March, 2023, 06:54:55 PMthe sad old man talking rubbish in the pub
Oi! You've just insulted three-quarters of the board here!
Quote from: nxylas on 13 March, 2023, 03:14:23 PMII find his Storyteller and Secret History posts fascinating
Sorry, I meant Pageturners. Storyteller was the original name on his blog, Pageturners is a revised and expanded version of those posts.