ANOTHER Saturday Prog, alas I've been away this weekend so only just had the chance to read it...and ...
Well I said last week I said with the unfortunate timing of this issue it had better be a good one or I'd be grumpy... well...
The Cadet Dredd was good. I've always said this series is best when Dredd and Rico are played off against each other and this episode underlines that. Though fair to say since we know how that plays out we also know that scenario can't play out and develop which is why the end of this story feels so familar. Still its a great fun romp that plays the two junior Dredds off against each other delightfully.
Of course all of this is helped by having Neill Cameron on art. As expected its just superb stuff. Alas it rather exposes how weak the rest of the art is in this issue.
After Cadet Dredd its all so muh. Its just not that entertaining or thrilling. Lowbrow High , dull and the art static and uninspiring. Oh we get 20 CHUFFIN' pages of this again. Enough to not progress the inspection stuff at all but to add a new plot thread I'm equally disinterested in with some... person with one tusk....ohhhh...I just don't care. Future Shock the art has much more potential. There's moments when it doesn't land but we've seen Zander Cannon before and hopefully they'll develop on their obvious potential. The story is okay, but the shock week and I couldn't even be bothered to work out who that was meant to be in the end? So we get 20 pages of Lowbrow and then Finder & Keeper back, one of the least interesting of the early Regened stories and well it still didn't hold my interest. The art flatters to decieve and didn't quite hold together.
So yeah we get 12 pages of good Dredd with great art and the rest is just dull and uninspiring with art that doesn't help matters. I don't know what's happened to Regened this year, have the budget for these been cut, has it just run out of steam but another really weak issue alas.
Grumpy as chuff me.
Yikes. Not got mine yet, but that doesn't bode well. It's an odd one. The Phoenix is firing on all cylinders right now, according to mini-IP. Why are the Regeneds not landing in the same way? (Again, according to mini-IP.)
I thought the Future Shock was okay. There's a new artist on Lowborn High, whose style I liked, so hopefully we'll see him again. So two out of three for me (I haven't read Finder & Keeper yet).
I never like Cadet Dredd, and this one is no exception, but I didn't dislike it as much as I usually do. The target audience might enjoy it.
I think part of the problem is that, for us old farts, Lowborn High doesn't really work. I keep reading that it's very popular with the target audience though. I don't mind it but the Harry Potter riffs are too obvious for me, plus of late it's just been too long. I'd rather see it half the length and have a different strip as well. It's not as if it does anything epic with the massive length to be honest.
This Cadet Dredd was good. As has been stated, it works well when the strip plays the two Dredds off against each other, and I always do enjoy the foreshadowing elements. This one worked well.
Future Shock was...ok. They are rarely more than that for me, even in the main Prog.
I'll go against the grain and say I've always quite liked Finder and Keeper. I'm glad it's back and this one does what it needs to do well. It's not really aimed at me but I can see its appeal and it's a fun read.
Cover by Rob Davis:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FyFrxRFWYAMrOii?format=jpg&name=large)
Cover and Logo:
(https://dyn.media.forbiddenplanet.com/wyif5DzXzKI26Kw-qccpls1VkXU=/trim/fit-in/779x1024/filters:format(webp)/https://media.forbiddenplanet.com/products/00/a1/0d4edd6bf141323a312f1908a8454c06d62a.jpeg)
Quote from: Richard on 11 June, 2023, 11:44:55 PMI never like Cadet Dredd, and this one is no exception, but I didn't dislike it as much as I usually do. The target audience might enjoy it.
I do hope so. I don't get the appeal of Cadet Dredd. My soon-to-be 9yo couldn't give two hoots about it. Perhaps she's too young for Regened, but she merrily blazes through Phoenix/Marvel/Rebellion Treasury/etc, and reads comics and standard prose daily.
Quote from: scrotnig on 12 June, 2023, 01:38:08 AMI keep reading that it's very popular with the target audience though.
Where do you read that? I mean, I'd imagine that has to be true, given how many pages it's getting. But I find it pretty poor. (That's something I wouldn't level at the vast majority of Phoenix strips.)
Out of curiosity, does anyone here have kids who love Regened? It'd be really interesting to know what it is they are into, and what they'd like it to do differently.
Well, mine showed up. The cover's great. Dredd still doesn't work for me as a basic concept, but within its own limitations was quite good. I liked the art from the Mega Robo-Bros chap. But a conflict with a resolution that occurred in the late 1970s and that won't be resolved in Regened feels odd to me. Also, what the heck are cadets doing off on their own, without a supervising full eagle?
Lowborn High... I found OK. It's got chunks of narrative going on, and there are clearly plenty of events. But it's painfully clear mini-Tharg is shoving this through until there's enough for a trade. Really, it would have been better as a standalone from day one, but that's no the model here. Nice lettering though. I appreciated the Ezquerra lines on the THOOOOOM.
The Future Shock wasn't very shocking and I've no idea why the art was in a weird aspect ratio, thereby requiring the title to go up the left-hand side of every page. Still, this was readable and seemed suitable. And Finder & Keeper was solid and hung together pretty well. My favourite thing in this issue.
Also slightly baffled by the Next Prog ad. I get running house ads, but house ads for something that's entirely unusable for the intended readership of this comic? Weird. Run a house add for a trade or something instead.
Anyway, given the high the Prog's been on, this was a bit of a bump. And it's been worryingly long since I genuinely enjoyed one of these Regened. I get they're not really for me per se, but I did enjoy quite a few of them. What again concerns me more is my kid doesn't care about them either. Still, if they're selling, they're selling and that keeps the issues I do like afloat.
Finder & Keeper > Future Shock > Cadet Dredd > Lowborn High
I'd definitely prefer to have read the Cadet Dredd story illustrated on the cover. Please, Joko, give us some respite from tales of "Oh no, Rico might be a bad 'un at some point in the future."
There's an unfortunate smell of emptying-the-drawer when we see 76 million pages of Clowborn High followed by the clearly-laid-out-for-a-different-publication Future Shock(s). Who knows, perhaps Regened's young readers may get to experience "Exciting news inside, kids!"? (Can a comic actually merge with itself??)
(And how did that "Miami Vice" reference get past editorial? I can't imagine there's many 30 year olds who'd understand the line, let alone the Regened target audience.)
On the plus side, Finder & Keeper seems to work pretty well. Nice art, too.
Regened has a habit of doing the references thing. Be it to strips that ran 30 years ago, or things that happened decades back. The main Prog can get away with that, although it can be tiresome when a writer references yet another band from back in the day. But it's bizarre when creating content for children. I'm struggling to think of many references from that era that might have clicked with my own youngling. Maybe Pac-Man? But even then, the notion of the passage of time to that degree is quite abstract to her.
And I'm not sure it's emptying the drawer so much as getting enough strip for a book. Mostly, that's happened by way of shifting strips to the main Prog for a bit. But not here.
Zander Cannon's Kaijumax is great I recommend that for those who liked his art this issue. The Dredd was good, I preferred the art on Clowborn High even if it was still a bit rough around the edges. And it went on... Not read Finder and Keeper yet.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 June, 2023, 08:43:38 PMThe story is okay, but the shock week and I couldn't even be bothered to work out who that was meant to be in the end?
I thought it was the dad bringing future tech to spice up the 80s.
I liked the future shock this week, thought it was superior to the other stories. I suppose Lowborn High and Finder and Keeper are not meant for my demographic and yup, they did not do much for me. Nothing against magic and ghosts - Summer Magic was a fine story. I just cared a lot more about Luke Kirby than these characters. Luke's story had a real feeling of peril, which I'm not getting here - it's all a bit safe (is that what all ages means?).
I'm not sure about cadet Dredd either - how does a buttoned up proto-fascist fit the young hero mould? Rico is rebellious which makes him more interesting, but we know he's a bad 'un.
Noam Chimpski would have been a good Dreddworld all ages candidate - enjoyable for kids and their parents. I guess his story is more adult at times, but it doesn't have to be.
I understand the purpose of the regen progs, but I am getting a little bit negative about them. I am starting to get that 90s vibe about them where the prog left me cold and I dropped it (I am not talking about the normal prog here). I would still like the regen progs to be done differently, what is wrong with it being handled like the current Battle Action mini-series?
I imagine there are various reasons for not doing that, not least that these issues give the main Prog a sales spike. Whereas creating an entirely new publication is far riskier. Battle's also designed to be a one-hit mini series, whereas Regened primarily exists to create material that can be compiled into trades (which in children's comics is today where the real money is).
I think what disappoints me is that we've had several of these in a row now that I've found mediocre, and they disrupt the flow of the main Prog, which has been on a high. That was less of an issue when the Prog itself wasn't blazing along at quite a level and Regened was pumping out comics that I enjoyed a whole lot more. It's an odd one, but, yeah, I think I'm shifting now from active supporter to "well, whatever, if it helps the Prog", which is a space I really don't want to be in; not least given that I am a rare parent who gives a crap about comics, with a daughter who is one of a now tiny number of friends in her year (Y3) who still gets regular comics.
I agree 100% what you saying and maybe I ma just venting because out of the regen we got Pandora, Full Tilt Boogie and Department K which all translated well into the prog. The last few issues were not good at all.
Quote from: broodblik on 13 June, 2023, 11:47:32 AMI agree 100% what you saying and maybe I ma just venting because out of the regen we got Pandora, Full Tilt Boogie and Department K which all translated well into the prog. The last few issues were not good at all.
Interesting point is Regened a victim of its own early success. Those early strips really landed BUT to give them the momentum and space they deserve as strips they have been removed from Regened into the Prog 'proper' and Regened is struggling to replace them.
Someone mentioned down thread its starting to remind them of the 90s (Broodblik I think - apologies I'm too lazy to look back properly) and this may be right in more ways than one. Then the talent disappeared from the Prog to the better paying US market and folks had to be brought in arguably before they were ready to fill the gap. Is the same thing happening on a small scale with Regened?
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 June, 2023, 12:09:48 PMQuote from: broodblik on 13 June, 2023, 11:47:32 AMI agree 100% what you saying and maybe I ma just venting because out of the regen we got Pandora, Full Tilt Boogie and Department K which all translated well into the prog. The last few issues were not good at all.
Interesting point is Regened a victim of its own early success. Those early strips really landed BUT to give them the momentum and space they deserve as strips they have been removed from Regened into the Prog 'proper' and Regened is struggling to replace them.
Someone mentioned down thread its starting to remind them of the 90s (Broodblik I think - apologies I'm too lazy to look back properly) and this may be right in more ways than one. Then the talent disappeared from the Prog to the better paying US market and folks had to be brought in arguably before they were ready to fill the gap. Is the same thing happening on a small scale with Regened?
Does look like it. It feels like I've not seen those strips for a while in either main or regene progs either.
Quote from: Le Fink on 12 June, 2023, 09:23:35 PMit's all a bit safe (is that what all ages means?).
Apparently yes, but it shouldn't. 2000AD was all ages when it first started, and that had Shako and MACH 1 and Judge Dredd and so on. It wasn't like Regened. Now we have stories about children at school.
Quote from: broodblik on 12 June, 2023, 04:40:23 AMCover by Rob Davis:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FyFrxRFWYAMrOii?format=jpg&name=large)
Hey, Dredd - Mickey Mouse called, he wants his arms and legs back.
Sorry. I haven't read it yet.
Quote from: Le Fink on 13 June, 2023, 02:00:19 PMDoes look like it. It feels like I've not seen those strips for a while in either main or regene progs either.
Maybe the last series of Pandora didn't move the needle enough – or isn't popular enough with the kids. But I'd be much happier if she was in every Regened. Dept K instead of Cadet Dredd would get the MC1 in there too. Full Tilt is trickier, given that it doesn't lend itself to standalone episodes and would lose momentum if stretched out across bi-monthly Regeneds.
Quote from: Richard on 13 June, 2023, 03:51:52 PMApparently yes, but it shouldn't. 2000AD was all ages when it first started, and that had Shako and MACH 1 and Judge Dredd and so on. It wasn't like Regened. Now we have stories about children at school.
Tastes change. The Beano is (fortunately, IMO) a very different beast from when I used to read it. The Phoenix appears 'safe', but has great and varied storytelling. Regened isn't falling down because people aren't getting torn to shreds by monsters or because not enough 30-something men are hitting and shooting things, but because of other reasons.
Quote from: Richard on 13 June, 2023, 03:51:52 PMApparently yes, but it shouldn't. 2000AD was all ages when it first started, and that had Shako and MACH 1 and Judge Dredd and so on. It wasn't like Regened. Now we have stories about children at school.
I'm not sure how many times this needs repeating, but here we go again: the media landscape is
very different from the way it was forty-odd years ago. Back then, there was very little media for kids — Saturday mornings, you got maybe an hour (or possibly two) of dedicated kids' stuff and after that it was sport and/or the westerns and war movies that tended to populate the weekend afternoon schedules. Another 30min at tea time if it was Dr Who season, and that was your lot.
These days, kids expect media that's made for them and, overwhelmingly, prefer to see protagonists around their age. Don't come at me with "Well, my kid..." — there's reams of market research on this. Also, for better or worse, many parents now keep closer tabs on the media their offspring are consuming and, generally speaking, take a dim view of their eight-year-old being served up graphic images of people getting dismembered.
None of this is a comment on the success (or otherwise) of any of the Regened strips to date, just to point out that simply recreating the Prog of Old™ is, commercially, a non-starter.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 June, 2023, 04:28:37 PM...Full Tilt is trickier, given that it doesn't lend itself to standalone episodes and would lose momentum if stretched out across bi-monthly Regeneds.
Yes in general the Regened format is up against it a bit - Make something dramatic and complete in just 12 (or so) pages, then do it all again in a few months when it's hard for readers to remember what happened the last time! Can't be easy.
You know how Future Shocks (and their brethren) are in some ways considered filler, but in some ways they operate as a fun diversion from the steady stream of serialized strips? Too many Future Shocks, and we start to tire of them. Perhaps this is because one of the things we love about 2000 AD is that it isn't finished - there's another episode just next week.
Now, imagine that every few weeks, instead of the regular weekly schedule (4-5 ongoing strips with the occasional one-off) - you got a prog that was entirely made up of Future Shocks - some of them by newer creators, and some of them twenty pages long, and most of them thematically diluted to appeal to a mythical middle-class of orchids.
We could call it...
Quote from: Funt Solo [R] on 13 June, 2023, 06:39:03 PMNow, imagine that every few weeks, instead of the regular weekly schedule (4-5 ongoing strips with the occasional one-off) - you got a prog that was entirely made up of Future Shocks - some of them by newer creators, and some of them twenty pages long, and most of them thematically diluted to appeal to a mythical middle-class of orchids.
It's four progs a year. I can't imagine that Rebellion would be continuing with this approach if there wasn't some merit (profit) in doing so. If it was costing them regular readers, they'd stop. This strategy (as I'm now so very,
very tired of typing every three months) enables them trial all-ages/YA material, run the breakout hits as a series in the prog, then bundle up the series up into a TPB to sell into the
incredibly lucrative all ages/YA market (which favours OGNs/TPBs, almost to the exclusion of all else).
If the price of the 2000AD group's overall financial health and securing its future going forward is
four whole progs a year that I don't feel are aimed at me, then, fuck it, I'll take that. Jeez, there have been twelve week runs of the non-Regened prog that I've felt less-than-enthusiastic about over the years, and they've gone on for
twelve weeks.
Are these issues worse than than basically a whole issue being taken up with a very pretty but poorly-written Slaine story, or a Rogue Trooper/Dredd crossover that literally no one was asking for...? I'd argue not. Others may disagree, and that's fine... but I'd refer them back to my point about ensuring that 2000AD is a viable business for the foreseeable future.
I totally understand your argument, Jim - and mostly agree with it. That doesn't, however, preclude my disappointment with the downsides.
The idea that Regened is saving the prog from demise is, though, just an idea. To use an analogy - the constant stream of MCU movies may well make a lot of fiscal sense - but it doesn't make them either artistically worthwhile or something I want to watch.
I do worry that the very idea of 2000 AD - as something one's parents might not find acceptable - is something that we might lose. In the end, you may have something that has the name printed on the cover, but that is effectively spiritless. A survivor, yes, but a shell of its former self. Like Moses Quest.
Like I said, though - I understand your points and mostly agree with them. (I also remember them from previous threads - so if it really is tiring to repeat them - you don't need to for my benefit. Not to be shitty about it, you understand.)
Like Funt Solo I agree (and have heard! I promise I have heard!)the point you make Jim. Doesn't mean it can't be done with more craft and the Regened can be appreciated. In fact I have loved many. These last two not so much!
Yep. In short (for me, anyway), it's not the concept – it's the execution. And you can be subversive in ways other than violence. (Again, going to The Phoenix, there's a lot of the downtrodden overcoming circumstances and also occasional openly political stuff like No Country.)
Just read it, and to be honest although I enjoyed the Regened at first the last few have been a bit dull.
Art highlight is Finder Keeper, very nice with great energy, and the new guy on Lowborn High does a good job, too.
Story wise it's a whole lotta meh. As has been mentioned, Cadet Judges would not be out unsupervised. What's the point of building a world just to have new writers piss all over it.
Lowborn High was okay at best, and theres ANOTHER twenty sodding pages in the next issue. Just give it it's own publication, Rebellion!
The FUture Shock was bizarre, partly because it very obviously wasn't produced for 2000AD and as such I'm amazed it was published as it's not good enough to justify looking so out of place. What happened at the end?I guess someone was "helping" the future. Yay.
Finder & Keeper looked great but was a very boring read. The whole premise of the strip is a shoehorned contrivance anyway.
How frikkin hard is it to get some decent writers in with original ideas? Set them ay school if you have to, but please, please make it more interesting.
Another curious thing that just struck me: Regened currently lacks fun. It's had it in the past, most notably with Pandora. But this issue felt quite dour throughout, with Finder & Keeper being furthest from that.
I wonder whether the format could do with a bit of shaking up. It seems that, for whatever reason, Regened has increasingly gone for fewer and longer strips. But perhaps there should be space for shorts too. Heck, even base one on an old property, if you like. Maybe Samantha Slade: Robo-Hunter, but as an anarchic and properly cartoony take, in which every strip takes place over a DPS.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 June, 2023, 11:20:45 AMAnother curious thing that just struck me: Regened currently lacks fun. It's had it in the past, most notably with Pandora. But this issue felt quite dour throughout, with Finder & Keeper being furthest from that.
I wonder whether the format could do with a bit of shaking up. It seems that, for whatever reason, Regened has increasingly gone for fewer and longer strips. But perhaps there should be space for shorts too. Heck, even base one on an old property, if you like. Maybe Samantha Slade: Robo-Hunter, but as an anarchic and properly cartoony take, in which every strip takes place over a DPS.
A trainee Robo Hunter is a tailor made idea. Old Samantha getting an apprentice.
Most of 2000ads readership are too old to have kids who would read regened if placed in their hands (and if they did read the first one 4 years ago they would now be too old to likely still be interested).
So it's only really there to give a stock to material to be collected and resold and essentially the progs audience are being used to kickstart this outside bet.
Personally I just ignore them the same way I do a strip I can't take to. But please Tharg no more than the established 4 a year (and stop transferring the stories over - despite their professional finish they really don't land as stories for me).
Quote from: Bad City Blue on 14 June, 2023, 11:51:19 AMQuote from: IndigoPrime on 14 June, 2023, 11:20:45 AMAnother curious thing that just struck me: Regened currently lacks fun. It's had it in the past, most notably with Pandora. But this issue felt quite dour throughout, with Finder & Keeper being furthest from that.
I wonder whether the format could do with a bit of shaking up. It seems that, for whatever reason, Regened has increasingly gone for fewer and longer strips. But perhaps there should be space for shorts too. Heck, even base one on an old property, if you like. Maybe Samantha Slade: Robo-Hunter, but as an anarchic and properly cartoony take, in which every strip takes place over a DPS.
A trainee Robo Hunter is a tailor made idea. Old Samantha getting an apprentice.
Christ even Samantha could finally get to Paris - Grant Goggins (for those who remember him... and I'm not sure I've got the name right!) would be pleased!
Samantha Slade is definitely not the solution! That series was dire.
I agree with pretty much every other view that has been expressed today.
Quote from: Richard on 14 June, 2023, 03:00:47 PMSamantha Slade is definitely not the solution! That series was dire.
I agree with pretty much every other view that has been expressed today.
Doesn't mean a better written one wouldn't be good though. Young kid stops a murderous robot (luck and judgement and panic) she is after. She splits the reward and he asks to become her apprentice due to money troubles at home. Split between home life and robo hunting, and the two inevitable become intertwined.
Shit... I feel like writing it now. Doesn't even have to be her, any Robo Hunter will do.
Richard: I'm not talking about a continuation of the original series. I'm suggesting someone combine something from 2000 AD's DNA ('robo-hunting') with, I dunno, the anarchic nature of Bunny vs Monkey. Make it properly cartoony and bright and silly and bonkers. But infuse it with 2000 AD's penchant for oddball sci-fi and weird robots. Run it across a DPS every issue of Regened. Give the comic varied pace and humour by default.
Maybe that's bollocks. I dunno. I'm not a comics editor, and I've not even edited a print mag section in years. But it feels as if something like this is worth a punt.
Ohhh chance for self promotion seen and taken... if you've looking for ideas...
(https://i.imgur.com/44bPu2f.jpg)
Ha! I was thinking even more cartoony, but that is a fun image.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 13 June, 2023, 04:53:39 PMThese days, kids expect media that's made for them and, overwhelmingly, prefer to see protagonists around their age. Don't come at me with "Well, my kid..." — there's reams of market research on this.
I'm curious about this idea. I have read that one should aim for a protagonist who is slightly older than the target demographic.
But! My personal experience (I know, I'm just me - not an average) of reading is that it never mattered how old a protagonist was. As a young reader, I liked Asimov - most of his characters are adults. Am I an edge case?
Is it possible that marketing to specific age groups is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy? (You make the protagonists close to the target demo., then they buy it because it's in the correct section of the book store - then you say "see, this stuff sells - these people like this format".)
Quote from: Funt Solo [R] on 14 June, 2023, 05:47:26 PMI'm curious about this idea. I have read that one should aim for a protagonist who is slightly older than the target demographic.
But! My personal experience (I know, I'm just me - not an average) of reading is that it never mattered how old a protagonist was. As a young reader, I liked Asimov - most of his characters are adults. Am I an edge case?
I think it's more of a generational thing. When 2000AD first launched in 1977, kids didn't mind reading about adult characters. But apparently, kids nowadays want to read about teenagers. Hence Cadet Dredd instead of Judge Dredd and so on.
Quote from: nxylas on 14 June, 2023, 05:54:22 PMI think it's more of a generational thing. When 2000AD first launched in 1977, kids didn't mind reading about adult characters. But apparently, kids nowadays want to read about teenagers. Hence Cadet Dredd instead of Judge Dredd and so on.
Aye, I get that idea - I'm just wondering if the proposition ("kids nowadays want to read about teenagers") is actually true.
I'm not saying it's not true, you understand. But I'm wondering what came first: the marketing or the desire to purchase the things being marketed.
(It's like someone noticing that - and I'm making this up, but it's not a terrible example - that people who smoke pot are prone to paranoia. Then one might argue that pot causes paranoia. But it may be that people prone to paranoia are more likely to smoke pot. Anyway, I ate this special yogurt and now I know you're all against me!!!)
Quote from: Funt SoloAs a young reader, I liked Asimov - most of his characters are adults. Am I an edge case?
If so, I am too. Asimov, Terrence Dicks (Doctor Who) and EE 'Doc' Smith among others in my case. All or mostly adult protagonists if I remember right.
Quote from: Funt Solo [R] on 14 June, 2023, 05:47:26 PMAs a young reader, I liked Asimov - most of his characters are adults. Am I an edge case?
JESUS. No... as a young reader, you, like me, had almost no media aimed at you. YA fiction wasn't a thing, children's TV was barely a thing. We were basically raised on war movies and westerns and SF books we got out of the library.
No one was creating media for our age group so we became acclimatised to accepting 30-year-old+ white men beating/shooting the crap out of people as our default protagonist. But, for the (seemingly)
millionth time, that's
not how it is now.
Jim - calm down, would you. You have an opinion. I was talking around it - not even disagreeing with you. Laying out the all-caps JESUS shit, and all that for the umpteenth time jazz - it's pretty aggressive, and it's incredibly patronizing. There's just no need.
To talk to the argument, you haven't actually proved anything - just repeated a proposition (which I don't necessarily disagree with).
No wonder we got divorced.
Sorry to double-post, but I was also ruminating on what was available in the late 70s/early 80s, and it wasn't as barren for kid's entertainment as is being made out.
There was kid's tv shows (Scooby), kid's comics (Asterix, Bunty), kid's books (James and the Giant Peach). Of course, I appreciate that there's more targeted content now.
My chicken and egg question remains, though.
As I understand it, publishers and producers started creating content that more directly aligned protagonists with the target market, it did well, and they did more of it. I'd say it's now quite rare to read a book with mini-IP where the protagonist is an adult, although there are usually (not always) adults within the stories.
I think it really began with the huge success of Harry Potter. Following that, the YA market boomed. With regard to the chicken and egg question, it's probably impossible to answer definitively, and I don't think it really matters. The genie is out of the bottle, and I don't think one can simply go back to the way things were. Although MCU and Star Wars films seem to do OK with adult protagonists. So who knows?
Quote from: Funt Solo [R] on 14 June, 2023, 07:11:48 PMJim - calm down, would you. You have an opinion. I was talking around it - not even disagreeing with you. Laying out the all-caps JESUS shit, and all that for the umpteenth time jazz - it's pretty aggressive, and it's incredibly patronizing. There's just no need.
Forgive my self-evident frustration at typing the
same damn thing to the same damn people every three months. I don't
have an opinion, I'm stating a fact. I'm sorry you don't like it, but here we are. I'll refrain from commenting on any more threads on this subject, because it's clearly a waste of time.
Quote from: nxylas on 14 June, 2023, 09:32:57 PMAlthough MCU and Star Wars films seem to do OK with adult protagonists. So who knows?
Yeah, but MCU is over a decade old now so most of the kids who enjoyed Iron Man can probably buy alcohol now. *Quick google* Every Marvel movie in the MCU combines for a run time of 6787 minutes, just over 113 hours or 4 days and ~17 hours. The number of kids willing to commit to that is probably rapidly diminishing.
Star Wars is now almost exclusively aimed at (for lack of a better term) Grown-Ups. I quite liked Andor, but my 11 year old nephew though it was boring. Something has gone horribly awry when they make a Star Wars that bores an eleven year old boy.
Having said all that, Star Wars has shown they'll just reboot rehash and probably even remake these properties for new generations for as long parents drag their kids to they thing they liked when they were young, and for as long they make money.
[/quote]
Star Wars is now almost exclusively aimed at (for lack of a better term) Grown-Ups.
[/quote]
OK, I forgot about all the cartoons, so I will adjust that to some Star Wars is aimed at "Adults".
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 14 June, 2023, 10:52:16 PMQuote from: Funt Solo [R] on 14 June, 2023, 07:11:48 PMJim - calm down, would you. You have an opinion. I was talking around it - not even disagreeing with you. Laying out the all-caps JESUS shit, and all that for the umpteenth time jazz - it's pretty aggressive, and it's incredibly patronizing. There's just no need.
Forgive my self-evident frustration at typing the same damn thing to the same damn people every three months. I don't have an opinion, I'm stating a fact. I'm sorry you don't like it, but here we are. I'll refrain from commenting on any more threads on this subject, because it's clearly a waste of time.
I agree. It's the old adage: "if you don't have anything nice to say..."
The idea that youthful protagonists are more appealing to youthful people is just an opinion, though. Not a fact. You haven't proven whether it was the market or the marketers that created the current sales dynamic. Shouting people down and screaming "FACT" at them doesn't make it so. Sorry.
I think there's the broader problem of treating a group, in this case "young people", "the yoof market" or "weans" as a monolthic entity. They're a diverse group. I refuse to live in a world where we defer to feckin' coked up marketing people.
And Harry Potter is a load of twee middle class shite. Granny Weatherwax would completely dismantle Hogwarts without even thinking about magic.
Thinking back to my misbegotten youth (in the 70s), there was definitely a sense of YA being a genre - my local library even had a section for it between the children's and adult fiction. But that section was a mix of older books (often fantasy and science fiction) that had aged enough to be now seen as "kids stuff", and books about and starring teenagers - which pre-teen kids like me devoured, because everyone wanted to be reading something that told them what life was going to be like when they were a little older.
Wanting to read stories with protagonists my own age was definitely a thing, but it also depended on what kind of story I wanted to read. If I wanted to read fantasy or "real life", then books starring me had a big advantage, but if I (for example) wanted to read war stories, I wanted adult protagonists because they were more realistic and plausible.
Even as I kid I knew kids didn't belong in some stories, while other stories were improved if the focus was on people I could closely identify with. The worst of both worlds were stories about adults with kid sidekicks, so a lot of US comics held zero appeal until a): I grew up and b): kid sidekicks finally went out of style.
The idea that there was little to no kid-focused kid-protagonist material in the 70s and 80s is laugh out loud funny. The Red Hand Gang, Tripods, Grange Hill, Box of Delights, Chronicles of Narnia even down to kid-focused dramas at the end of schools programming such as Words & Pictures.
As I kid I thought they were mostly lame and much preferred being 'allowed' to watch Blake's 7.
When I did legal stuff relating to publishing back in the 90s the rule of thumb was everything is mostly consumed by the age group below it's target market - just 17 was read by 12-15, Cosmo was read by 15-20, vogue was read by 19-30. All well below their target markets. Now adults have more leisure money and disposable income the impact of nostalgia and eternal-youth syndrome means CW shows (30 year old actors pretending they are early 20s) are mainly watched by 40-50 year olds. Meanwhile kids reading manga are au fair with pretty much full on BDSM and kink because adults haven't a clue what's in the vast spectrum of manga. Does regened have a market? Well obviously as it's still with us but what that actual market is age wise I doubt very much is going to drive future 2000ad readers.
But like I've said it's 4 issues a year, have at it rebellion - how you've kept the Prog going gives you a lot of kudos in my books.
It's not that there was no kid-focussed media when we were growing up (for a given 'we', given that I imagine there's a range here, probably peaking during the mid-70s to mid-90s). But there is these days more effort paid to aligning age groups with protagonists that are of a similar age. So with that, Regened is arguably doing the right thing. That's not to say everything should be like that – variety and pace are good things.
As for:
QuoteStar Wars is now almost exclusively aimed at (for lack of a better term) Grown-Ups. I quite liked Andor, but my 11 year old nephew though it was boring. Something has gone horribly awry when they make a Star Wars that bores an eleven year old boy.
I don't really see that myself. Instead, I see a property trying to appeal to a diverse range of viewers. However, it's also extremely messy and in some series tonally all over the shop. (Personally, I loved Andor. The best Star Wars thing I've seen. But then it also didn't need to be Star Wars. It almost just happened to be set in that universe. Then there's stuff that's directly tied in, like Obi-Wan, which I found risible. The other series sit somewhere between, which Mando at the top, despite its penchant for blacksmith porn and largely inconsequential nature, and Boba Felt with its bizarre teens-on-bikes from another movie somewhere below. But I could see kids flipping that to Boba > Mando >>>> Obi >>>>>>>>>>>> Andor.)
Disney destroyed Star Wars. Star Wars always catered for everyone. Their is stuff kids can enjoy and stuff that grown-ups can enjoy.
Maybe I am not a good example but when I grew up I preferred the non-youth characters.
I preferred adult characters too, but I'm not sure I gave it any conscious thought. It was more a case of how good the story was.
I did like Grange Hill, and also The Famous Five and Secret Seven!
It was just "is this a good story?", if it was then I enjoyed it, and the age of the characters didn't seem to matter.
Obviously I am likely an outlier, and even if not, it being common then doesn't mean it's common now. I don't have children and wouldn't haven't a clue what motivates younger audiences today.
Quote from: scrotnig on 15 June, 2023, 02:24:17 PMI did like Grange Hill, and also The Famous Five and Secret Seven!
I was also a big fan of Hardy Boys and please do not mention the following to my school buddies: I enjoyed Nancy Drew as well
QuoteIt was just "is this a good story?", if it was then I enjoyed it, and the age of the characters didn't seem to matter.
I mostly agree with that. But sometimes the age of the characters can make the story seem too implausible, like two teenage cadets running around Mega-City One fighting crime without adult supervision. All fiction requires a certain degree of suspension of disbelief, but some stories demand too much.
On another angle, do any parents here know whether children ever feel condescended to by children-protagonists-only fiction, in a "you're too young to read stories about grown-ups yet" sort of way?
Quote from: Richard on 15 June, 2023, 02:55:58 PMOn another angle, do any parents here know whether children ever feel condescended to by children-protagonists-only fiction, in a "you're too young to read stories about grown-ups yet" sort of way?
My kiddo is 11, but quite short for their age group - so they often feel condescended to by grown-ups who don't realize how competent they are. As regards reading fiction - they have such a wide selection to choose from, and such freedom to choose, that they filter out non-appealing things.
I'll ask them later about your specific question. (They did tell me yesterday that they don't consciously care about the age of protagonists - what they care about is whether or not the story is interesting.)
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Quote from: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 15 June, 2023, 01:33:33 AMGranny Weatherwax would completely dismantle Hogwarts without even thinking about magic.
Something we can all agree on!
Quote from: broodblik on 15 June, 2023, 02:29:07 PMQuote from: scrotnig on 15 June, 2023, 02:24:17 PMI did like Grange Hill, and also The Famous Five and Secret Seven!
I was also a big fan of Hardy Boys and please do not mention the following to my school buddies: I enjoyed Nancy Drew as well
I definitely did not read "The Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew Meet Dracula".
Nope. Never.
I don't even know what it is.
Quote from: Richard on 15 June, 2023, 02:55:58 PMI mostly agree with that. But sometimes the age of the characters can make the story seem too implausible, like two teenage cadets running around Mega-City One fighting crime without adult supervision. All fiction requires a certain degree of suspension of disbelief, but some stories demand too much.
Hmmm yes, that is a good point regarding this Cadet Dredd story...which I mostly enjoyed for what it was.
Given we've established within Cadet Dredd itself that cadets are usually supervised, why were they out in the streets alone here?
I'm also unsure how old the two Dredds are meant to be in these stories. They are sometimes drawn to look very young, but other times they look and act like fully grown men.
Quote from: broodblik on 15 June, 2023, 02:16:40 PMDisney destroyed Star Wars. Star Wars always catered for everyone.
Whilst I can see considerable merit to this argument I think it worth offering the following for the defence ...
Jar Jar Binks ....
QuoteStar Wars always catered for everyone
I mean, somewhat. But I recall when my wife I and watched the OT a few years back, and had forgotten just how white and male almost the entire universe was. So there's something to be said for evolution of media.
Great droid representation, though.
Quote from: Funt Solo [R] on 15 June, 2023, 08:20:57 PMGreat droid representation, though.
And big hairy fecker representation, which gets more inspirational for me by the year.
Quote from: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 15 June, 2023, 09:39:33 PMAnd big hairy fecker representation, which gets more inspirational for me by the year.
Somebody on Twitter said that they want to see a Star Wars spin-off where Han and Chewbacca visit the planet of the Wookies, and they're all eloquent and impeccably dressed, and Han looks over at his naked, growling mate and goes "oh".
Apologies for taking this thread back to the contents of the Prog and away from our quarterly "why, oh why" ramblings, but the ending of Finder and Keeper puzzled me. They caught all 4 of the supernatural floating head things, but there were only 3 valves in the basket. What happened to the fourth?
I also thought that about the floating heads..!
A couple of storytelling issues with the art this issue I thought - as well as the Finder & Keeper issue above, I found Lowborn High difficult to follow especially at the start where Frost is shown in the room with the two girls, then Zak busts in and knocks Ali, not previously shown in the room, down the hole. Otherwise really nice art throughout and very cool to see Neill Cameron and Zander Cannon in the prog. Really liked Cameron's Holmes-esque depictions of Dredd spotting clues in the panels.
Storywise ignoring the stuff we've spoken about at length before: Cadet Dredd was easy to follow despite stuff like Dredd being a less fun character than Rico, unsupervised Cadets etc. I thought Lowborn was a complete mess, sadly. The Future Shock was alright but the Miami Vice reference was a pointless one for a kids comic and the weird page formatting stood out, as others have said. I'm not a fan of F&K but the best thing in the Prog this week I thought. Although how had nobody noticed the teacher building a giant woodhenge in his (presumably communal) flat garden?
These Progs are a necessary evil for me, never expect to get much out of them so never disappointed. Looking forward to next week.
Just to echo the general air of meh about the recent Regeneds
Good first - the cover was great, adn the FS, weird formatting aside, was decent
I'm all for all ages 2000AD - I think the regular prog would do well to be more all ages so we dont get the weird disconnect like the adverts for next weeks "not for kids" comic
But I'm not really sure what this is achieving other than a collection of Lowborn High with a rather jarring downgrade in the art (no offence intended, but the art was previously about the only good thing about LH, but this isn't really up to standard - decent fanzine level, but lacking the polish I want to see in a professional publication.
Dredd sums up my feelings of confusing and lack of seeming direction. Liam Johnson does seem to ahve a better handle than many and this isnt the worst - I would argue that theres nothing wrong leaning into the history we know of the characters and his stories seem to be the closest to finding a reason for these tales. But it feels like those first 20 Dredd stories from the 70s where mud is being thrown to see what sticks - there was a reason for that then, but I dont see why we need that now.
Its an attempt to appeal to the most modern audience wrapped in the most retro logo possible - that disconnect seems to run through Regened like a stick of rock