2000 AD Online Forum

Just a couple of quick impressions, more later:

Dredd: A fun short, with gorgeous art from Cam Kennedy.

Savage: A promising start. Some very obvious "one man's terrorist..." comments, but this could be very good. Charlie Adlard's art is fantastic, far better than his recent colour work on Dredd.

A.H.A.B.: Far better than I expected, this could be a bit of a minor classic. The final page is almost worth the cover price by itself :-)

Low Life: A fairly downbeat start. Some of the best Henry Flint art I've ever seen. This has got a real "Lenny Zero" feel to it - no bad thing IMO.

Chopper: Interesting. This is the only strip I'm not sure about yet. I'll re-read and comment later.

First impressions? We're in for some fun with this lineup :-)

How many dead?...

How many dead?

???

There's been a competition to guess how many die in this prog. Multiple deaths with unnamed bodycount count as 1 I believe...

0 die in Dredd

7 die in Savage

Dozens dead in A.H.A.B., but they don't die "onscreen".

3 die in Low Life

1 death in Chopper

If Odders agrees with that, Slips will be the winner!
And I'm one off... Damnit!

::Savage: A promising start.

I agree, although I'm already getting fed up with Mills's penchant for fake swear words (again - see also: "dastard").Oh well.

"Dastard" is a proper English rude word, albeit pretty archaic...

[backslash]Das"tard[backslash], n. [Prob. from Icel. d[ae]str exhausted. breathless, p. p. of d[ae]sa to groan, lose one's breath; cf. dasask to become exhausted, and E. daze.] One who meanly shrinks from danger; an arrant coward; a poltroon.

You are all recreants and dashtards, and delight to live in slavery to the nobility. --Shak.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ? 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

J-Bo-you-wouldn't-have-thought-Shak-was-that-verbose-if-you'd-sat-through-STEEL-1

You just know that from watching Dick Darstardly cartoons.

Wyatt, you snickering, floppy-eared hound ?
When courage is needed, you're never around!
Those medals you wear on your moth-eaten chest
Should be there for bungling, at which you are best!

J-Bo-he-he-he-he-he-he-1

The point I was making was Mills using certain words as "safe" replacements for profanity - to my mind, dastard fits because it's so obviously a replacement for bastard. I don't believe for a second that Mills was using it in the way you mention. It's actually more jarring having such things in 2000 AD than actual swear words (although I'd also hate to have 2000 AD turn into a US film, with fucks being thrown around with merry abandon. So to speak).

Mills used "Dastard" quite a bit during Nemesis the Warlock, didn't he?

Simply, keeping swearies out of the comic keeps the comic from being consigned to the top shelf along with WYATT'S MILPORN MONTHLY and suchlike. I'm aware that some shops rack it in the top shelf anyway, but unfortunately it's impossible to legislate against rank stupidity.

I think that creative replacements are far more fun than the real thing, by and large; SinDex with f**k instead of funt, for example, would be grim reading indeed...

J-Bojemoi!-1

"Creative replacements" for expletives are fine - I've no problems with "Drokk", for example - but some of the words that make their way in could hardly be classed as "inventive" or "creative". "Funk", "shiv" or "vucking" are, IMO, lazy stand-ins for real words that simply serve to pull the reader out of the story.

If the issue is keeping real-world profanity out of the comic, I'd rather see writers avoid using expletives altogether rather than just switching a couple of letters.

If we're talking archaic expletives, I always quite liked "Rantallion". A no-prize to the first border who can post a definition here...

It's not an ancient tennis term, but it does mean "One whose ballbag is longer than his racket"

Link: www.kokogiak.com/logolepsy/ow_r.html

Noisy: Isn't it someone who has their balls hanging lower than their willy? Or am I getting confused again? ;-)

'Funk'.  Oh dear.

Inventive psuedo-swear words can be great, in context.  (Dan Abnett's particularly good at making them up) But, generally, if you want your characters to swear, then let them swear properly.  If you don't, then forget about it, particularly if you're going for grim'n'gritty in your story.

I really liked the first episode of Savage, but all that 'funk' and 'funking' stuff was a big unintentional comedy put-off.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the "funking Volgans" - images of James Brown in pseudo-Russian army uniform have been flashing through my head all day...

Your damned if you do and damned if you dont..remember all the self righteous pontificating over Garth Ennis expletives when Preacher ran in the meg a while back?..the substitutes are rather silly tho IMO..I'd sooner see other words like friggin instead of fucking or none at all..

Dredd..The colour was a bit washed out but the tale was amusing..especially the paltry compensation of 37 creds 50.....8

Savage..I like new 'Grim n Gritty' style for this one, I suspect its how Pat would have liked to write it 1st time round..it did remind me style wise of Carver Hale..8

AHAB..This was a pleasant surprise..I was sure this was going to be a bummer but its great so far..8

Low Life..This is so beautiful to look at i've read it 3 times in a row..Tharg give me details of the availability of the GN and give me them NOW!!!...9

Chopper...hmmm didnt really take to this one even after a second read..Real downbeat stuff it was, and not in an engaging way..real sad to see jug dying of cancer..5

Droid Life..hellfire what was all that about?..6

T.P.S

Full review some other time - but I liked Savage, for the most part. Not as bad as I feared it might be. I'll wait and see how it goes, but Pat Mills is slightly redeeming himself! Hurrah!

The swearing was abysmal though... Worst thing about it.

GREAT BIG FUNKY SPOILERS (can ya dig it?)



Cover- 'Ave that you Volgan slags!

Dredd-Really great one off. How the hell does he still manage to crank out brilliance like this after over a quarter of a century? Mind expanding machinery from the future or mind expanding liquid from his local?

Savage- Impressed with the first episode, Adlard's got Savage down a treat looking like the mean funker that he is.
Slags. Pat should have used Slags. "Ave some of this you slags!" Sounds much better than "Ave some of this you funks!" Unless the Volgans are renowned for their disco fever. Hopefully Savage won't strip to the waist and run around with a big axe on behalf of a goddess. It would be interesting, but not for the right reasons :)

AHAB- Excellent start, I like the art and the setup (apart from the generic supervirus stuff) is intriguing. Love the final spalsh page! We need more of that every week!

Low-Life-Flint's style is very unique and has grown on me greatly since I first saw it. The story throws up some of the nastier aspects of Meg-1 but that's what this strip is all about.I like it.

Chopper- Ah chopper, good to have him back with Wagner at the helm. Brilliant end to Jug and a great hook at the end.

Back Page-Transformers! And the answer to a question that's been bugging me for years- Was there a cartoon and toy line of knights with supra-cool holograms on their chests? YES! Visionaries!
Thank you Tharg, your strategic advertising genius has made my day :)

The swearing is pretty insane - either go for bleeders and slags, or possibly Fack?  That would have got made more sense phonetically for yer Cockerneys, in a similarly way to Feck being acceptable...?

Otherwise, a grand start to the new run - no real complaints at all.

Excellent one-off Dredd, really made me laugh.

And yes "funk" is really silly and jarring.  But Savage looks better than I expected.

Just for Mr C:

*ahem*

"It is a time when magic is more powerful than science, and only those who control the magic, control destiny.

They are the Visionaries...

Visionaries, knights of the magical light!
Visionaries, with magical powers they fight!
Powers of life and strength, skill and speed,
Powers to accomplish the greatest of deeds!
Visionaries, knights of the magical light!"

>Savage..I like new 'Grim n Gritty' style for this one, I suspect its how Pat would have liked to write it 1st time round..it did remind me style wise of Carver Hale..8

So why didnt he, I mean he was the editor.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

Because he didnt actually write it, beyond the first episode or two?  The idea was to set up the stories and pass them on... I'm sure theres no way we'd have seen the Savage we get now back then of course (it does reek a little of hype), but we dont get the Dredd of then now do we?

One episode in and we seem to have a miracle on out hands, the stone to the Mills mausoleum has been rolled to one side and he?s risen again, well you may think so after reading this thread.
Prog 1387 was for me a great read but the weak point of the Prog was Savage, both in art and story but is part one so lets see how it goes. Is it the second coming? Is It Funk.

My other query isn?t just limited to Savage although it seems to be happening to a higher degree in this episode. Why are so many words in bold, some seem to be done to highlight the title of the story, or to signpost something that we thick readers may miss, but for me it just seems to be done in a really random fashion.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan

I agree, and I notice it happens a lot at random in other comics

I don't think Mills has 'risen again', but I enjoyed reading this.

Which is more than I can say about Black Siddha.

BOLD OFF

I noticed the bold as well, Logan. It's certainly not limited to Savage, but it's particularly noticeable in this episode.

Some of the emphasis makes sense:

"It's a bit unfortunate. I do hope no one was hurt."

Reading that line aloud, the emphasis is perfectly placed - it's a sarcastic comment, and that particular word should be stressed.

Then you've got lines like:

"And try not to cough, mate. It could make the funks suspicious."

or:

"You must be filmed on camera, so make sure you get out of the Range Rover."

..neither of which make much sense if you read them aloud, emphasising the words that are in bold.

Unsurprisingly, John Wagner's strips in 1387 don't have this problem - but then, IMO, he's always had a great ear for dialogue, and it translates well onto the page.

Cover: kind of old fashioned, or?

Dredd: how does Wagner do this time and again? laugh out loud stuff. and greatly told by cam.

Savage: so this is Savage. I find the new Mills stuff pretty uninteresting, especially Siddha (urgh), but this was a nice and gritty begining. And my, looks Adlard good in b/w.

AHAB: Compared to this is space operas like synnamon or valkyries pretty dire stuff, innit? I always liked Elsons art. And "don?t call me Ishmael" lol

Low Life: wow.

Chopper: Honestly I thought, why? Why bringing back each and very old character? But this had heart *g

Droid Life: lol

as as I am concernd this fires on all cylinders

I like the whole prog.

Despite one or two uneasy moments with Savage (is that a snide comment at gay people?) I enjoyed the entire comic.

I repeat: the entire issue of 2000AD was fully thrill-powered.

Wow.

I can't think when I last felt that way.

Well done, Tharg and the droids!

- Trout

Very good prog.

Droid Life: Funny!

Dredd: Class.

Savage: Yeah I also noticed the funking problems with the Savage dialogue, but not to worry.
Also, impressed at how quickly he brought up gays and Christians into the story, wastes no time!
Pretty good though, considering.

A.H.A.B: Very interesting start... who is that beastie at the end?

Low Life: Another very good start - really like Flint's grey style, much prefer his Shakara/Nemeis X style to his coloured Dredd/Aliens style (although both are good!)

Chopper: Brilliant.

Oh, and check the April Competition for the announced winner!

who is that beastie at the end?
You dont know your Moby Dick very well, Ahab was damaged by Moby Dick in the book and lost most of his crew (IIRC).  He then went after the whale on a rampage.  Im assuming the beastie at the end is the eponomous AHAB......

Droid Life - Funny
Dredd - Funny
Savage - Actually I found this confusing and took a couple of reads to work out if Bill was dead or not.  The arts lovely and Im looking foward to reading more....
AHAB - Nice
Low Life - Nice art (in fact fantastic art).  But this is a damn fine story well done to Rob Williams.  This was the best story for me this prog.....
Chopper - Nice bit about Identity fraud thrown in there, was that on purpose?  Nice...

Yer Slips

Slips - was Bill even *in* this episode?
The guy in the van was called "Bill" (they used quote marks) - he was just a decoy to make the Volgs think Savage is dead.

I think thats what was confusing me :), all the "Savages" looked very similair....

Yer Slips

Didn't he swap places with his brother, who was dying?

To be honest - I read the whole prog quite quickly, on the bus this morning. And I was more concerned about counted dead people then Savage's plot...

I wish to add: how bloody good is the art throughout this prog?

Bloody good, that's how bloody good.

Okay, the cover's not the best thing Gibbons ever did, but it's a striking image, I always welcome a drawing with depth and it's damn nice to see him back on 2K!

I'm also delighted to see Cam Kennedy back where he belongs - on Dredd. Can we have a longer run of his stuff in future, please?

The dark Charlie Adlard stuff on Savage is a real joy, too. It's very British, isn't it, to use b&w in this way?
Atmospheric and appropriate.

Richard Elson is one of the best artists to emerge in the last few years, and I'm glad to see him continue to work on the Galaxy's Greatest.
That splash page - with due credit to the writer who suggested and scripted it - is just splendid.
All his monsters do look the same, but I don't really mind.

As for Low Life - Henry Flint continues to set the standard a 2000AD artist must attain before we call him genius.
I know I say this a lot, but it's very heart-warming to see an artist with a distinctive style openly - and without shame - display the influences we all love from 2000AD's early days.

Finally, I want to use the word "promising" for the Teague and Goddard art on Chopper.
I confess that I was a little nervous about whether their style would suit it - they were often a little static on Young Middenface - but this was great.
The movement worked very well, the characterisation was spot on and I'm convinced their partnership has visibly matured and blossomed over the last year. (Fnarr, fnarr)

I even love the style of Cat Sullivan's little cartoon.

Overall, I want to congratulate the staff of 2000AD for leading the way with an anthology of such quality.

NB The stories read damn well, too.
It's just the art really left my fishy thrill-receptors almost fried to a batter-covered crisp!

- Trout

Dredd v. funny.... Judge Ellis v. v. Funny...

Savage... hmmm juries out but 'Funt', Oh dear

Let's remember Savage is set on a parallel Earth.

Maybe that's just the way the funting dastards speak there? :-)

Yeah, it's a wee bit annoying. I'm going to see how it continues.

Bring on the tanks!

- Trout

That's "funk" not "funt" - don't get your stories swearwords muddled up or you'll look like a fool!

When I heard Savage was saying "Funk" a lot, I wondered if Mills had decided to give him a blaxploitation-style makeover.

I enjoyed it, there are some nice points to be made about terrorism here, I just hope Mills resists the tempation to let his polemic overwhelm the plot.

Yes, it's a very good prog, isn't it? Very good indeed. :)

Snut up, shivhead.

- Trout

Come on Logan you must know the constraints people had to work under then on what was essentially a kids comic..even if you are the editor..Mills,Wagner and Gosnell were continually pushing IPC to the limit as John Sanders has gone on record saying.
    All this was just after the Action banning and even the name of the Russians had to be changed to Volgans to avoid controversy
    Sounds like very good reasons not to push the boat out too far when your publisher was trying to attract 8 yr olds

T.P.S

Richard Elson is one of the best artists to emerge in the last few years.

Elson's been around for yonks. I remember the Milligan-writ Shadows (672-681) fondly. Saying that, his style is pretty indistinguishable now from then.

M@

it's an absolute joy to see Richard Elson back in the prog and although you rightly point out that he's not 'new', the latest style that he's adopted *is* miles away from his first efforts. like most artists (i imagine, being pretty piss-poor mesself) he's very critical of his earlier work

Richard Elson Interview @ 2000adreview

btw, i loved the 6 page episodes this week... those extra 4 pages overall makes a big difference

thinky

I've just read the Dredd strip, bloody brilliant, I laughed out loud!!

I liked Savage but I'll reserve judgement till I've read more.

Haven't read the rest yet.

Was a tad concerned that so many stories were all based  Dredd's world. Is this the first time there have been three separate strips in 2K all in set in MC-1 and with judge/ perp characters? It reminded me of the early meg.

Just a nit-pick, I know.

Oh, and BTW, "Feck" is the word of choice.

I love the way that Savage's fake swearing causes such a tizzy, when Izzy just comes out and says "bullshit"!

A VERY good prog.

Droid Life - moving as well as funny.  Cat Sullivan's a very dirty man, if you read between the lines...

Dredd - While not the world's greatest fan of Cam kennedy in colour, I thought he was the perfect artist for this silly little tale.  Was that a Ukrainian wrestler judge on page 4?

Savage - Adlard's art continues to rise in my estimation, after the disappointment of the Satanist series.  And this was a terrific start by any estimation - simultaneously challenging to some of the reader's preconceptions (a suicide bomber as hero?) and comfortingly old-skool.  If he can keep that kind of balance up, I'll forgive the odd clunking line.

AHAB - I'm nothing like as much of an Elson fan as many here seem to be.  This was workmanlike, but I hope that it doesn't continue to feel like Avatar III.  The plot itself hasn't kicked off properly, so I'll suspend judgement.  Though I will say I hope the Ahab character doesn't turn out to be the cook pretending to be the captain or something.

Low Life - liked the misdirection at the start, and as someone else has said Henry Flint really is the gold standard of 2000AD art, especially in black and white.  Aimee Nixon looks like an entertainingly nasty character.

Chopper - pure gold.

Overall, this has got to be my favourite prog for some considerable time (with only a little wobble on AHAB).  Keep it up, Tharg!

Had another read through on the bus on the way home - I've got some more comments.

Each story was pretty chunky I thought - then I realised why: Extra pages! Each one was a 6-pager, and we had the stiff cover back!

PLEASE PLEASE THARG! Make the stiff cover & extra pages thing permenant!


Low Life - I love Flint's crazy backgrounds between the panels.. lots of checker-boards and warping lines & stuff. Groovy!

AHAB - Elson's art is very good, but Dudley's right, it can get very "samey" - especially when he's put on space-travel & aliens stories.

"Though I will say I hope the Ahab character doesn't turn out to be the cook pretending to be the captain or something."

Damn... maybe it's not to late for a last minute rewrite...

Nigel

a much more thrilling prog than of late.. isnt Tharg a little tease fiddling about with our thrill levels like that?

shite i turned the page too quik & missed droid life.

SAVAGE; not to sure about the sript or premeis or where this can go, curious tho; ARt work great. Funk a fucking stupid word. i don't give a monkeys feck about real or vunty fake swearwords, but Funk is what we do at a disco & thats that.

DREDD; a cracker.

AHAB: very promising, compelling Elson, Brilliant gets richer all the time.

CHOPPER: great, loved the art & can't wait to see next week.

LOWLIFE: story a bit  like stuff thats gone before, but what the beck, Flints stuff is a joy to behold.

happy happy joy joy

Never mind all the funks and funking, I'm amazed they managed to get the word 'cooze' into the prog this week.

errrr call me niave, but dare i ask what the funk that means ?

I beleive that it's an american swear word meaning *ahem* parts of the feminine persuasion.

Used in the South alot I think.

Over 18's only, please.

"Cooze" of course sounds a lot like "cous", as in cousin.  Given it's Alabama roots this may not be a coincidence.

Link: Cooze definitions

Nice Prog.

Yet more comments after a re-read.

Dudley: Yeah, that's quite a bizarre judge!
He's quite fat, and needs a haircut. Now, who does that remind me of...? :-)

Did anyone else notice the first judge there is Judge Hicks? A reference?

Certainly, the name Cornell on the clothing of one of the frozen corpses on the AHAB splash page was a reference to someone!

- Trout

That's 'Cornelius' actually. The relevance will be clear in the next episode.

Nigel

I stand corrected!

But I hope I panicked Paul Cornell for a minute or two. :-)

- Trout

"Savage: Book 1"

Funking leave it aaaaht, Mills!

I did change the thrill title from Invasion to Savage (I've had it as Bill Savage in the past) and just put Taking Liberties as the story title (and put Book One in the notes), but then I rediscovered that following the Extreme edition I'd split up a number of the original Invasion arcs into separate stories, so the thrill title now has to stay as Invasion which left me with cramming everyt6hing else into the story title.

At least he doesn't change the title every week like Dan Abnett.

Wake

It's almost as if these writers were just trying to be as awkward as possible.

Funk is what we do at a disco

Must...resist..predictable...posting...


I actually enjoyed the story, although, as usual, Mill's dialogue sucks spadge. Gratuitous use of the word 'funk' just reminded me of the Harry Enfield Badfellas sketch.

IMO Pat's dialogue is better on this story than it's been in ages.

If he'd left out all the funking I'd have no complaints at all.

- Trout

But does Savage call anyone a bunch of slaaaaags?

Art: sadly, no.

It's endemic in our society that past hilarious cockernee-ness is dying out.

They haven't said "Guv" on The Bill for ages, either.

- Trout

So New Savage will say "Funking" and "Muddyfunster" but he won?t say "Bleedin'" or "Slaaaaag"? That?s just crap that is.

Aparently, new cockerny slang has "bare" meaning "loads" - which, although I think is totally backwards & stupid, is at least good news for Old Mother Hubbard.

'Double yellows' though. That was nice.

Excellent prog characterised by ace final panels.

Dredd - laugh out loud brilliance.

Savage - What a comeback. I had no probs reading this at all, dialogue, bolds, politics, whatever, you could nitpick like that on any strip in this prog. Heh - "I work for the gas board!" - classic. (Re: funkers. What Tharg should have done is print FLICKERS and kept everyone happy.)

A.H.A.B. - Sorry, waited for the Ishmael ref and cringed when it turned up, but extra oil for Elson on that last page.

Low Life - Flinty bliss. Those effects backgrounds are awful but the characters make this - great designs and group dialogue.

Chopper - Jug's demise and Chop's bitterness was a bit heavy, might be in for a bit of a miseryfest here.

Still early days for the continuing strips, really. Wait and see how they pan out.

9/10

Forget what I said before, this prog (and progs like it) is the reason I've been reading 2000AD for the past 27 years. Funking Awesome, 10/10, top prog, can't fault it.

Tulkas in good prog shocker.

Good prog.

Lots of exciting new stories and solid art throughout. Real potential for a solid run of thrillpower, leading into the summer.

One oddity though. Big chubby male/female Judge? Last time I saw a Judge like that it was in a Ron Smith drawn story with a Fat Jimp in it many moons ago. Odd, standards are slacking in the Halls of Justice.

>>standards are slacking in the Halls of Justice.

I'm not sure that bloke would have fitted through the doors of the Halls of Justice.

Maybe he was a transfer from the Justice Department's Doughnut Division?

His glands were just playing up...

I've got a quick question about Chopper that will probably be solved next week.

Chopper is just taking the baby hostage to create a diversion isn't he?

Bets on Jug has a son who is a top class skysurfer.

Justice Department's Doughnut Division

There's a Judge costume design I want to see D'Israeli?s sketches for.

Well Jug's wife was up the duff in Earth, Wind & Fire...

"Drokk! Breach in the city wall! Hordes of mutie vampire spiders about to pour through! One chance - Doughnut Division!"

Maybe Justice Department is just opening its doors to the differently-sized, and maybe the thin people should stop being so damn judgemental.

Krusty - thanks for the "duff genes" excuse!

Dudley - not fat, just genetically deficient.

Maybe they should open the doors to the outrageously tall, the short, the weak chinned and nerdy (previously convined to excorcism div), squeaky voiced and the freakishly-capable-of-making-sound-effects-with-their-own-voice...

I thought that fatty was a Jimp, but I only skimmed the story.  Judges can't be this fat surely!  No wonder the bikes have such wide tyres taking loads like this.

Maybe they should open the doors to the outrageously tall, the short, the weak chinned and nerdy (previously convined to excorcism div), squeaky voiced and the freakishly-capable-of-making-sound-effects-with-their-own-voice...

SOLD!

This would mean the child would be about 14 not a baby surely?

Well they let fat people join the Judges - the genetically deficient are exiled to the Cursed Earth!

Hey I'm differently-sized, but if i was a citizen in trouble I know which type of Judge I'd like to see running to my rescue.

And it's not huffy-puffy hubba-chubba Man/Woman.

No sirree!

Cover - good, good,

Dredd - hilarious, genuinely surprising ending, comic as well as ever so slightly gritty

Savage - A good start, beginning with a bang before adding  a layer of intrigue. So good I'm willing to gloss over the customary Mills pops at Christians & gays

A.H.A.B - I like this first episode,but I think itcould go either way. The alien at the end was good.

Low LIfe - Brilliant. The atmosphere was just right, funny & slightly scary as well. This strip could have a lot of mileage in it methinks.

Chopper - Great. As with Savage this had both contemplative bits and actiony bits & neither felt at odds with each other.

Droid Life - Fookin' hilarious.

Overall - Best prog of the year thus far...  

Rio - you think that kid Chop snatched up is Jugs?
Nah, reckon it was just a safety thing - Judges don't like shooting skysurfers carrying babies (See "SABs" progs 1200-1202).

Re: Next week's cover.

A scary looking guy running away with a baby. That'll look great in the newsahents when displayed near the tabloids...

Yeah, you say that now, but if a portal to some hell dimension opened up which could only be plugged by the noble self sacrifice of one of the boys from Doughnut Div THEN you?d be pretty pleased to see them.

Big portal.

Oddboy- Sorry no I briefly thought that's what you thought when you mentioned Earth, Wind & Fire.

I agree that the kid is likely just a hostage used by Shakespeare to avoid getting shot/captured.

I still think Jug's child will be a fantastic sky surfer.

well in my experience of law men, it takes a hell of a lot of standing around doing FA & eating donuts before they become lardo-boys, it must be all that paperwork keeps them slim*
so blubber judge musta eaten a few perps to pack it on . look forward to the scrawny weeds & midgets next week.






* standard fire brigade attitude (tm)

Oddboy -

Would you consider changing your poll?  It's just that Judge Dredd is sweeping the board.  But we all know 99.9% of 2000AD readers love Joe.  Plus this was a one-off story, which means it has a satisfaction to it the others inevitably can't match.

It'd just be interesting to see what everyone makes of the four new stories instead.

James

Thought the whole prog was pretty good this week- but Dredd really stuck out- it even made me laugh (proper laughter as opposed to sniggering).

Nice to see Cam back on the artwork chores as well, this sort of story really suits his style.  The scene jump after the panel where the guy takes his hand out of the bag had me in stitches...

Duds - I was thinking the same thing when I looked at the results so far this morning...

The pretty girl at the end of Chopper was a great way to round everything off...

Chopper is just taking the baby hostage to create a diversion isn't he?

I thought it was a doll.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

Yeah, I was pretty sure it was a doll. He did nick it out of a kid's hands. And he is a nice anti-hero not a proper baddie, surely he wouldn't risk a baby.

Everyone has pretty much covered all the bases wrt to this prog for me. Can I just add however that

a) I loved Chris Blythe's colours on Chopper.  Lovely contrast between the radback and the Big Meg.

b) I just read three progs in a row and would have been suffering from thrill power underload had this week's prog not being so stonky. Bec and Kawl and the life sapping Durham Red (please let it really be *finally* over) really dragged down the previous two progs for me.

Next prog he'll eat that baby.

Actually, wait - wouldn't it be more ironic if Jug's kid was a judge? Single-parent family in the Meg... ship the sprog off to learn a valuable trade i.e. head-breaking...

Just read Chopper again and the "baby" is deffo a doll belonging to a little girl.

That'll teach me to comment before properly reading the prog.

Oh and I missed the bit where Jug confirmed that his love child was a girl and not a boy.

So anyway to conclude I think Jug will have a daughter who is good at Skysurfing.

I'm a bit late to this party due to bosses whining about internet use so all I'll say is this is what you call Funking Thrill packed prog!

9/10 (due to lack of letters)

Really lookin forward to next few progs.

no one commenting on droid life...?  i though it was really funny this week...he's half electric laser...hahaha!!!

i hate one of comedy's but dredd was a real surprise, with a funny ending...

savage - you gotta love gay bashing...NOT!!!!  What the hell is mill's problem???   it's slain's bloody don't swallow gag all over again....grr!!!

ahab, i'm reserving judgement on, it looks like it has potential, but the don't call me ishmael gag felt forced, like it didn't go along with the flow of the story...

low life, i hope is good, enjoyed it, liked the art, the black, white and greys add atmoshere in a way colour wouldn't.  this is how black and white should be done.

chopper i know nothing about, no back story or anything, so i'm a bit clueless, but it still worked for me...

input page - what input page...?

cover - alright in theory, but the eye section of dredd's helmet is alll wrong, like he couldn't see out of it.

Enjoyable prog marred only by my leaving it somewhere and losing it. Shame. But 5 greatly enjoyed stories. Niggles here and there but a great, great prog.

If, as I believe it says in the prog, that Jugs kid was concieved during SuperSurf7 then how old would it be?

Somewhere about nineteen.

Cover - was rubbish. Old-skool, cliched, obscuring the logo, and Dredd looked like he's been on the Slimfast plan.

Dredd - great one off. And having a fat Judge made a change from the usual generic beefiness.

Chopper - Jug's death was a great way to start the story, and the art as the storm came in and the sun went down was superb. By not having a Supersurf story Chopper looks like he might be the best he's been since Song of the Surfer. He might steal toys from small girls in airports, but he's still my favourite perp.

A.H.A.B - Average-ish opener, nice final splash, could still go either way.

Low Life - Henry Flint has made MC-1 dirty again. I'm liking it a lot.

Savage - was much better than I expected. Not because it's a Mills, but because I never liked the old Invasion stuff very much.

As for the funking, swearing ain't gonna become a regular occurance in the prog, and funt, shiv, and vuck have never distracted me from the reading anyway.

And without trying to provoke a Mills-Politics Debate (because it'd be boring and funking tedious) but coming from Savage I wasn't offended by his slightly homophobic attitude. He's supposed to be a big, hard, cockney terrorist. Bill Savage is hardly Mr Liberal, and for him to be a gay-basher doesn't offend me.

Some people in the anti-Mills faction will say this is just rationalisation for Mills using a character's prejudices to express his own opinions. But then that's people for you.

not being able to portray a character as a hard man withough slamming a minority group or ten means he's having a bad writing day when he did this and the characters are just 2 dimentional stereotypes




actually, screw this, i can't be bothered with this argument again, out there is a boarder who can express themselves better than i and can argue a case better than i and i'll come across as being a whiny bitch (and not even top bitch at that...even though i am!!!)

I started to write a long and detailed arguement before realising I'd be re-opening the Mills-Politics debate I swore not to only a couple of posts up, so I won't.

Jen tries to respond, but her mouth is zipped up, padlocked and the key has been thrown away.  she tries to type, but he hands are chained to the chair.



mumble...mumble...

I really enjoyed this prog. I thought all the stories were pretty good. Dredd was an instant classic. A.H.A.B was pretty average, but then it's only setting up the premise so it mearly has to be functional for the first 6 pages. Plus, this strip has it's work cut out out as it is the only completely new story(yeah, I know low life is new but it's still Dredd verse).
I thought Savage showed promise. Not that bothered about all the funking, but I would like to see more of the traditional cockerney dialogue.

Art on all strips was damn good.

As an aside, does anyone think this new DC deal is going to make 2000AD more americanized? I mean writing stories with a view to making them big sellers stateside when they are collected as TPBs?

The DC deal won't affect the output of the prog in any way. From the looks of it, DC are gonna be reproducing quite a bit of older stuff first, so there won't be an opening for newer stuff for a while.

I don't think there'll be a compromise in style as that's what makes the prog great. If it tried to ape American comics, then why would DC want it? They've got enough comics in that market already.

:: Cover - was rubbish. Old-skool, cliched, obscuring the logo,
:: and Dredd looked like he's been on the Slimfast plan.

Yeah, what is up with that? Do they sit in the editorial office going, "You know what would be great? Let's cover up half our logo on the 'jumping on' issue, thereby eroding our brand, and making the magazine less obvious on the shelves."

sarcasm aside, why do they cover up half the logo, surely people who see this weeks prog and think about giving it a go are going to be slightly confused as to what the thing's called.  the title of a comic, magazine etc lets you get an idea of what it is, and what it's about.  You can't even read it this week...

Jen..i lived in Bow for 6 months in the eighties and the characters you meet there make Savage look like some ultra lefty liberal pink ribbon wearer..If anything Pat Mills has underscored the character traits..The real East end has fuck all to with Eastenders the Mockney sunday afternoon 'knees up' bollox....all this thread of 'gay bashing' is getting out of hand...ok there was a gay character in the 1st episode and savage was quick to let him know how the land lied..but how is this construed as gaybashing????

>Yeah, what is up with that? Do they sit in the editorial office going, "You know what would be great? Let's cover up half our logo on the 'jumping on' issue, thereby eroding our brand, and making the magazine less obvious on the shelves."

Is the Logo really that important? If you?re a lapsed reader then surely seeing the Image of Judge Dredd is more recognisable than the new Logo, I mean if you?re a lapsed reader what Logo would have been on the cover when you stopped reading, probably not the one that?s on this weeks cover.
If you?re new to 2000 then why would the logo mean anything, why are you going to pick up this weeks Prog? Is it for an oval red logo saying 2000AD or because there are two guys on the cover with guns.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

I haven't read all of Prog 1387 yet, only Savage, as I knew it'd excite plenty of discussion among boarders. I'm so disappointed. I thought the preview panels I'd seen were from the first episode, so I was expecting a tank to go through the shop window of French Connection. I didn't want all this lead-up, just straight into Bill Savage leading a resistance group in guerrilla fighting against the volgs.

What really let it down though was that I'd been expecting a straightforward action story with a bit of a contemporary political edge, but it read like the kind of crap Pat started in Third World War. I didn't expect a story that would have me immediately making lists of 10 Things I Hate About Pat Mills, but that's what I got.

The made-up swearwords, the homophobia, the anti-Christian put-downs, etc. were so unnecessary here. I want to read Savage, not Slaine!

The dialogue was rubbish. The story didn't make sense - why was it important to get the apparent death of Bill Savage on camera? Wouldn't that make good propaganda for the volgans???

I really wish Pat wouldn't try to educate us about important stuff we ought to know about. I could've done without all that stuff about uranium-tipped shells. So radiation from depleted uranium is bad for you? we know!

"it takes bottle to be a suicide bomber"? Is that right - are we talking about Palestine here, or the World Trade Centre or what? No, it takes desperation. Besides, Savage's comrades are blowing up a military target, not a civilian one. So there are suicide bombers and there are suicide bombers. If Mills is suggesting here that the rights and wrongs of suicide bombing are not black and white, he's got that bloody well right!

And the homophobia's crap. What's it for? To establish that Bill's an authentic cockney, as has been suggested here? That means either a) we all know that real cockneys are homophobic, and that's how we know Savage is a cockney, or b) Pat is suggesting that Bill's homophobic because he's a cockney, and we can infer from this that we are supposed to understand that 'cockneys are homophobic, aren't they?'

Contrary to what thrillpowerseeker said, there WASN'T a gay character in the first episode. It was Savage's brother-in-law that Savage was implying is a woofter because he's a bit weedy and not very manly in the bedroom with Savage's sister. And you fell for it.

That's why it's not good when Pat writes this stuff. If he says poofs are a bit girly, or evil, or treacherous, people dismiss it as 'just words', and a bit of a laugh. But here Savage says someone's a bit of a poof, and mud sticks.

And do we really need Pat Mills to tell us that Christians are a bit weedy and not up to much in bed? What are we supposed to do with this revelatory nugget? Add it to the many other reasons why we hate Christians? Sheesh.

Okay, sorry. This is that discussion in the offing that no-one wanted. I'll say no more, and go back to lurking. Just to be on the safe side, everybody kill-file me now.

Cheers.

I was more annoyed that they'd gone for such an...average image for the cover. By all rights they've got a strong line-up including 3 big name characters the prog, and they chose one of the dullest poses ever!

And considering it's a Dave Gibbons, there's not really much excuse for it being so flat.

Brod..your letting this get to you too much..lol..its a comic strip ffs

I've been a designer now for over ten years, and yes the logo IS *VERY* important. Rapid ease of/identity recognition is everything and totally fundamental on crowded shelves, and I wasn't just referring to this issue: 2000 AD has been pissing about with its logo for a very long time now.

Okay, if Dredd's on the cover, it might not matter that much, although I'd still argue that the big 2000 AD logo is more prominent from a distance (which is the whole point of a strong corporate ID). But if trying to attract a lapsed reader, and something rather more murky or unknown is on the cover, covering part of the logo is tantamount to commercial suicide. (And if it's so unimportant, why not scrap the logo entirely, or just have a horizontal 2cm strip at the top, saying "2000 AD prog XXXX, ?1.30) so the art can have the whole space?) Even when Dredd's on the cover, the design should be such that the corporate ID isn't affected.

the cover was a gibbons? wow, I didnt even notice.

On the Dredd side, could this be a hint at the next mega epic, Fattyjudges and Thinniperps?

Had dashed high hopes for Prog 1387, what? Dashed high hopes now dashed.

Is the Logo really that important?

it's a pride thing, i want everyone to know i'm buying 2000Ad (as oppose to 200)

tps - i suppose what pisses me off is that there are people out there who are really like that, not the character, not mills, just normal everyday people who take the piss out of minority groups just because they're different, people who judge someone on what they are and not who they are.

'I'm pleased to hear it, Noddy. For a minute, I thought you was saying you was gay . . .'

'Gay'? Poofter, shirtlifter, or ginger would have been more in character. Such funking clunking dialogue is not going to dispel any accusations of homophobia.

I get your jist jen..I think thats always been the case and probably always will be..it was going on way before Pat Mills was around  but somehow certain members of this board seem determined to make Mills responsible for this

certain members of this board seem determined to make Mills responsible for this

I don't have a problem with his pointing this out. It's just his pointing it out in bold every single damn time is getting old. But I liked this first installment. Wasn't perfect, was a bit more confusing than it needed to be (though I could still follow it) and it could be a great story.

That may be Ellie DeVille..she was responsible for lettering the story

I don't just mean actually in bold... bold as a metaphor too - I mean he lets it get in the way of the story.

that happens all the way through the progs tho..from wagner dredd to abnett sindex..no-one pays it a second thought unless its a Mills story

I have NOTHING against Mills!!!

Fer flick's sake...

That may be Ellie DeVille..she was responsible for lettering the story


she?  i though she was a he...shows what i know and it aint much...

"that happens all the way through the progs tho..from wagner dredd to abnett sindex..no-one pays it a second thought unless its a Mills story"

I thought the point had been made earlier that this WASN'T limited to Savage, just that it was particularly noticeable in that strip.

Also, I believe the placing of emphases in a strip is the responsibility of the writer - scripts typically indicate to the letterer where to use bold, or any other lettering effects - so I doubt Ellie de Ville is to blame for awkward placement.

Some writers - like Mills, Wagner and Steve Moore - make excellent use of bold text to enhance their (often simple) dialogue.

Of course if the words are contentious, then their skills can bring too much attention to them where other lesser writers may be easier to forgive.

Cover: shite

Dredd: priceless

AHAB : pretty good

Lowlife: great art, story rubbish

my two faves though were Chopper and Savage.
A last hurrah for Jug Mckenzie, fabulous.What pleases me most though is John Wagner is finally having his say after Chopper was pretty much ruined by other writers.(apart from the poster prog story)
Savage is brilliant,far better than I thought it would be.Nice one Pat.This one is going to be the most controversial thrills of recent times, me thinks : )

yep..  ; )..i love a heated debate

So do I. Let's all have a massed debate.

Already having one, aren't we?

I have to say I'm delighted to see a six-page prog thread for the first time in months.

It's nice that the comic is generating so much discussion again.

- Trout

well if they keep delivering fare of this quality we may get 8 pages of intense discussion..huzzah i say, seriously though the prog is the best its been for about 3 yrs

I've been a designer now for over ten years, and yes the logo IS *VERY* important. Rapid ease of/identity recognition is everything and totally fundamental on crowded shelves

Isn't that a complete misconception? I can't believe that anybody buys 2000AD based on an impulsive reaction to a swiftly-glanced cover...? I figure you have to know what you're looking for, and then seek it out. Raising that awareness is key, and you do that by branding. And as long as the cover reinforces expectations of the brand, that's the main thing.

and I wasn't just referring to this issue: 2000 AD has been pissing about with its logo for a very long time now.

That was true in the late 90s, but the new regime has done lots to strengthen the 2000AD brand - firstly by reinstigating a classic logo, and secondly, by not changing the name at the turn of the millennium.

To me, 2000AD is now a stronger brand than it's ever been. And it's the brand that sells.

But as much as the logo is a big part of the brand, pictures by top artists of hard bastards with guns is an even bigger part. So, if such an image is going to obscure the logo - and thus, to repeat my first point, reinforce the brand - then fine.

M@

When you look in 99% of all newsagents (round here, anyway), 2000AD is pretty much the only comic on the shelf.  

There might be a couple of American things as well, but they are quite distinct from 2KAD by size and style of cover image.  The only other British comic would be Beano/Dandy/Thomas the Tank Engine, and they're quite clearly aimed at other agegroups.

This has been the situation for a very long time, so I think it's unlikely that anyone would fail to recognise the brand merely because the logo were covered.  And it doesn't matter in specialist comic shops because as far as I can see they usually have a healthy 2000AD section.

In short, if the comics market undergoes a miraculous turnaround and 2000AD is suddenly fighting for space with half a dozen startups, then maybe the logo-messing would be a problem.  Until then, they are the market and can afford all the messing they like.

duds - u are right. As all the american stuff is a diferent size too its harder to mistaike

Yes, the simple fact that 2000AD is the only adult comic worth reading in this explored universe is a total fact --

Fans like me will crawl through broken glass to buy and read it every week.

There is a reason for this - long may it continue.

dang it, I`m late to this thread. Oh well, here`s my revoo

Logo covering - doesn`t matter, as has been said. Good cover

Droid life, really cute, getting better all the time

Dredd: nice funny story, great art

Savage; brilliant art, good story, incongruous swearing. The gay/christian thing was a little annoying but not very for me, I`ve gotten used to it with Mills. Gay Christian though I am, I must admit it did sort of suit his character
AHAB; looks very good, really interesting
Low Life; flint heaven. Has the best line in the prog: I`m regurgitating
 uh you mean renegotiating, right, cooze
thass right
Chopper; time will tell. This character feels tired to me. I wouldn`t have noticed the cute girl (I assume Krusti means the underpants-flashing one) if I hadn`t read this thread! That`s what boards are for

I've been a designer now for over ten years, and yes the logo IS *VERY* important. Rapid ease of/identity recognition is everything and totally fundamental on crowded shelves

Isn't that a complete misconception? I can't believe that anybody buys 2000AD based on an impulsive reaction to a swiftly-glanced cover...?

That's not the point - it's about reinforcing your brand and enabling people being able to rapidly find 2000 AD on sprawling shelves of material (and, let's face it, many newsagent's are such things these days). Sure, the "I'll just pick this up browsers" are fairly low in number, but to say "you have to know what you're looking for" says a lot about the state of 2000 AD's readership. Effective use of the brand means 2000 AD could win back readers rather than just relying on the same old ones every week.

I agree that the logo isn't everything - the entire cover needs to reinforce the expectations of the brand. But there are a lot of new characters these days, and plenty of cover art has been murky. The logo ALWAYS stands out (when not covered with artwork and drop shadows). You don't see the likes of Guardian, Q, Macworld, et al, doing the cover-up thing, yet many of those have a dedicated readership.

When you look in 99% of all newsagents (round here, anyway), 2000AD is pretty much the only comic on the shelf.

True, but where is it to be found? I can go to ten different stores and find 2000 AD in ten different places (well, if you can find it at all, which you can't in the town I live in). Having a distinct, visible logo helps with location, because it can be distinguished from other content at a distance, unlike much of the cover art.

I decided to try & re-read Low Life, as I've arrived at the current party a bit late. It didn't set the world on fire back in 2004 exactly, is it worth the time to catch up on the back story & do I really need to, in order to fully appreciate the current 2011 story?

Quote from: Judge Olde on 13 September, 2011, 05:04:24 PM
I decided to try & re-read Low Life, as I've arrived at the current party a bit late. It didn't set the world on fire back in 2004 exactly, is it worth the time to catch up on the back story & do I really need to, in order to fully appreciate the current 2011 story?

Quality necropost. I'd say it's worthwhile reading it as there's not really that much of it. As to whether you need to: not really. I think the seeds of the current story only go as far back as that one time Low Lie was in the Meg and the two D'Israeli ones.

Quote from: The Cosh on 13 September, 2011, 10:40:50 PM

Quote from: Judge Olde on 13 September, 2011, 05:04:24 PM
I decided to try & re-read Low Life, as I've arrived at the current party a bit late. It didn't set the world on fire back in 2004 exactly, is it worth the time to catch up on the back story & do I really need to, in order to fully appreciate the current 2011 story?

Quality necropost. I'd say it's worthwhile reading it as there's not really that much of it. As to whether you need to: not really. I think the seeds of the current story only go as far back as that one time Low Lie was in the Meg and the two D'Israeli ones.

Yep. The early stuff focussed very much on Aimee, didn't it? It only "became" Low Life when the focus shifted to Dirty Frank.

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 14 September, 2011, 08:12:57 AM

Quote from: The Cosh on 13 September, 2011, 10:40:50 PM

Quote from: Judge Olde on 13 September, 2011, 05:04:24 PM
I decided to try & re-read Low Life, as I've arrived at the current party a bit late. It didn't set the world on fire back in 2004 exactly, is it worth the time to catch up on the back story & do I really need to, in order to fully appreciate the current 2011 story?

Quality necropost. I'd say it's worthwhile reading it as there's not really that much of it. As to whether you need to: not really. I think the seeds of the current story only go as far back as that one time Low Lie was in the Meg and the two D'Israeli ones.

Yep. The early stuff focussed very much on Aimee, didn't it? It only "became" Low Life when the focus shifted to Dirty Frank.

Roughly when was that?

I'd recommend getting the mega city undercover trade (or even better the new low life book) and starting from the beginning. Mainly because a) there's some really great artwork in those early stories and b) it's probably best to get up to speed with all the supporting characters. In any case they're all worth a read - istr enjoying them, with the possible exception of the one set at a gig/festival, which is a bit of a stinker.

It is quite a different strip in it's early days, though. Very downbeat and gritty.

you can get the MegaCity undercover book on Ebay from Mongoose for a quid + PP

Thanks both